There is an abyss between cultural tolerance and burying tolerance in the earth like the aussie bird.
Burqa is nothing to do with Faith. It is about oppression, self oppression, frustrations, defiance...those women are told to STIR UP division, fear, troubles for it is what their "tolerant, merciful" Q'ran orders! Now it is too late. The muslim world is determined to make Britain look like Saoudi Arabia. Headquarters of Islam. Because some blind british don't get the evidence : if you grant ANY demand to muslims, they will go on and on till the Sharia is the new British Common Law. When one UK Magistrate defends the Sharia, I am afraid the eyes of tolerance lost sight of the Sunlight. The Sun is not black. Burqa offends freedom and the most elemental courtesy to see someone's eyes. If "Allah" put some white in the eyes, it was for the Intelligence to be enlightened.

Sometimes, it seems in the face of adversity, we need an identity; other times when we feel a bit more self-assured, we don't. Which may bring us back to something near to the burqa point? If the feeling in France (and, of course, I'm generalising here) is that Muslim women and men are put in a position where they may feel under pressure, then to deny them the chance to say "this is who I am" without the baggage about "...and what are you going to do about it" bit, then it's a sorry state of affairs.

The Wickedness of Islam

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375168/Sharia-Law-A-woman-whipp...

I can't agree with you until you support the right to Nazi, anti gay and far right symbols being worn. You would support this as much as I would. Simply put - if you choose to live in a society, you support its values.

"This will not stop women being forced to wear the veils, it will only restrict their movements to the areas where this law will not be enforced (i.e. the ghetto) and prevent the wearers from being exposed to the secular integrated communities that they're "supposed" to aspire to join."

Great argument Alex. Well, lets not ban stoning to death for adultery, or female circumcision. It might alienate theocratic fascists.

The burqa is not compatible with social democracy. It is not compatible with the rights of women.

I find it utterly depressing that anyone who calls themselves progressive, or left wing, could possibly defend the burqa, under any circumstance whatsoever.

Did the left fight for decades for female emancipation, for equality, for secular values to end up with apologists for a walking coffin? Those who deend the burqa should look up the meaning of the word "Quisling".

You don't get any more liberal than the French; it was the French that abolished their Monarchy, and almost God itself, and Time and the Months and the Seasons.
Its thanks to them that we had Liberty Equality and Fraternity and the Enlightenment. And it is in that Spirit they've outlawed the veil in public places.

Only a man could imagine that masking women's faces has something to do with clothing.

Only a man could ignore the fact that this is a gender issue.

Only a man could ignore what covering women's faces is about, and cast the business of the Mutaween in the light of sartorial choice.

No face-veil for Mr Green, I guess - he has no shame.

Seaman T: you make no sense do you know that?the "war on terror" was a liberal endeavour, was it??of course the freedom of the majority is more important than the freedom of an individual. Not being judgemental can lead to the worst abuses." for evil to succeed all you need is good people to do nothing", remember that!
Feersum: Well excuse me I had not noticed that the British concept of liberal freedom had stopped them from committing atrocities throughout the world, especially in India.As to discrimination against Muslims there is absolutely no evidence for saying that it is any worse than in Britain. I think YOU are prejudiced my friend!
In any case nobody is saying the French are better or worse, simply that their concept of freedom is different and leads to a different view of equality and social justice.Surely you can accept that.
Thanks Swantantra, you have got it. The spirit of the Revolution lives on in France. In Britain, we are still waiting for one!There is still very little notion of equality and solidarity.See how all the Serfs are going to cheer at the royal wedding. It is a sad fact.

Fiona the hostility of the French to muslims seems to surprise you. A sort of reverse Nazi type think mode!Get a job in Cairo and have your fingered by 300 arabs!

Most importantly though, what does this mean for French ninjas?

The burka is an affront to human dignity. It is not a requisite of the religion say Islamic scholars.
And those who talk about 'rights' should also remember their 'responsibilities' to society, to be open and honest and respect the feelings of others they interact with. There is no interaction with the wearers because theirs is a closed world; it can be intimidatory. The wearers have excluded themselves from normal social interaction by covering their face. The sooner the practice is stopped the better.

@Hans Castorp:

Sorry, I did attempt to reply to your post at 13:17 yesterday nearer the time, but for some odd reason it seems to have not made it past the mods.

Anyway, you are making assumptions. Did I say that I wanted to "mock people in the street"? No, I did not. You seem to imagine me going up to veiled women and personally give them a hard time. I agree that would be cruel, but it's not what I meant. I meant mocking the veil in a more general sense, but writing on posts such as this one statements like "wearing a veil is daft and mockworthy".

I also find your assertion that the French have legislated "for people's freedom" rather extraordinary. Haven't they specifically legislated to restrict people's freedom?

Let's not forget, this is in keeping with other French laws. As far as I know, they still haven't repealed the 1799 law that makes it illegal for women in Paris to wear trousers.

The French ban on veils is the right thing to do (I suspect a large number of young French women are secretly very happy this ban is in place) but they're doing it for all the wrong reasons.

There is no religious reason for the veil, it's purely cultural. Many young Muslim women have adopted it as a protest against western society. Many elements of foreign cultures have no place in modern western society and the veil is one of them.

The veil is divisive, illiberal,provocative, shocking and unpleasant. We should ban it here too.

I totally agree with Cassandra 101, oldebabe, Rob and...yes incredibly Luddite.
There is a profound misunderstanding between the French and the British about the concept of freedom. The British tends to think of it as "Freedom to.." as in freedom to wear the veil, while the French tend to think of freedom as "Freedom from" as in freedom from the oppression of the veil.This difference is also evident in the fact that the British favour "multiculturalism" in their treatment of immigrants, while the French prefer "integration". For the French someone who chooses to come and live in France,will be welcome if they are prepared to integrate and become an equal citizen. They believe that French society must be cohesive and must be held together by very precious Republican and secularist values. Equality of men and women is a big part of that.
Therefore many aspects of the Muslim and other religions are incompatible with this vision, especially the burqua.
By the way, it is illegal already to hide your face in public, so the burqua ban is just an extension of that law.
It is a choice of society and it is their right to interpret the notion of freedom any way they like.
Like some one says, most French Muslims agree with the ban especially the members of the Muslim women's movement "ni putes ni soumises" and why or why would you immigrate to a country without the wish to integrate and respect their values?

Non-French have a very hard time understanding them. The French are one of the very few Western liberal democracies who do not go about pretending that they're 'culture-neutral' or 'culture-neutered'. They also tried very hard to ban the anglificaton of their language.

Personally, I just view it like most other places in the world who have strong beliefs in how people living in or visiting their country should present themselves in public. And people who object to whatever those cultural prerogatives are just aren't going to live there.

Certainly, Saudi Arabia need not fear that I'm going to turn up and demand residency, because their cultural values are not compatible with the way I want to live my life.

You make the mistake of thinking the French, somehow, ought to KNOW better. That in itself is a very patronizing value judgment.

Remittance Girl has a point. Dare I say it David, but you're approaching this from an Anglo-Saxon sensibility that the French do not always agree with.

For the French, to be French, means ascribing to a set of values, regardless of class, creed or colour, that demonstrate the superiority of the French. One of these values is égalité, a commitment it seems to enforcing equality by occasionally targeting obvious markers of cultural inequality. The veil being one. The belief being challenged is that a culture which encourages women to cover their faces is not an equal one so it must be discouraged for the greater good.

You will also find that the vast majority of French Muslims support the ban, recognising it as a symbol incompatible with French values.

Alex: You're right. Ultimately, it puts women who are compelled or feel compelled to cover up in a terrible position. It will push those who live in France into the shadows and deter those who might come to France from participating, veiled or otherwise, in many educational and professional pursuits.

But you know, it's their culture. And that's just it. If we can be so respectful of a woman's right to wear a burkha in her own country if she wants, then why do we have such a problem with the French who find it culturally incompatible with theirs?

Kind of laughable that someone famous for blocking people who dare to question him; is trying to defend freedom of speech. It's all well and good having the values; it's a shame your ego gets in the way of them.

I could take the French rationalizations for this a lot more seriously if they were also banning the wearing of mega-sunglasses and nuns' habits. In fact, I rather hope the burkha wearers take to wearing mega-sunglasses and nuns' habits instead, which would retain their cultural choice of covering but do it in a way which the French are happy to go along with.

It's irrelevant whether the vast majority of Muslims support the ban or not. This is about individual and small group liberty. I also hope that some burqua wearers challenge the French law in the European Court of Human Rights (as well as Christians who want to wear crosses and Jewish men who want to wear kipot.)

@Hans Castorp

What specifically do you find disgusting?

Lots of loose talk here about "their culture" etc.

@Adam

You stupid idea that it is preferable to mock somone in the street rather than legislate for people's freedom using the due process of an elected legislature.

I agree with the burqua ban but am not so crass as to mock someone for wearing one.

Jared, then that would depend on where you went in Paris and France. I lived there between 1988 and 2004, and saw the full veil fairly regualrly. My kindly neighbour in 1989 in La Goutte d'Or always wore the veil.

@Judy

Your comment re nuns is daft as the ban is on covering of the face, which a nun's habit does not do.