Its that religion of peace and tolerance again !!!!

I'd been meaning to commend Mehdi on his stance, and to note that I thought his comment "We British Muslims prefer to wallow in vicarious victimhood" was perhaps a little harsh (given the recognition of Holocaust Memorial Day, and also that the atrocities visited on Muslim communities are genuinely and keenly felt; I was just balking at the word “wallow”). Also, I was glad Inverness211 had pointed out the actions of the Iranian diplomat in saving Jews from the camps, and wanted to add that the Great Mosque of Paris played a similar role.

However, I now have a sense of disbelief having read the rest of the comments. What is wrong with you people? As someone far from being aligned with Israel politically or with Judaism religiously, I find this staggering. I’ve attended two International Holocaust Remembrance Day ceremonies myself, and was particularly moved by the speeches given by Simone Weil (Honorary President of the Foundation for the Memory of the Shoah) recounting her detention in Auschwitz and forced march to Bergen-Belsen – the dispassionate manner in which she described these experiences only added to their horror and I feel privileged to have heard her.

This is not a competition of suffering; acknowledging the appalling atrocity of the Holocaust does not preclude recognition of the all too real tragedy that has befallen the Palestinians, nor of any other genocide. Maybe some of the above posters need to rediscover their basic humanity.

@Tiny tim

I'm not trying to convince you of anything. You will believe what you want to believe. But that doesn't mean I don't think your views are disgusting.
This is not a numbers game. Was it 6 million was it 3 million - it doesn't matter. If it is a reference point for man's inhumanity to man then so be it. That's all I have to say on this matter. Even replying makes me nauseous

'We British Muslims prefer to wallow in vicarious victimhood. Only "our" tragedies matter: Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnya roll off our tongues. But none of these surpasses the Holocaust's barbarism''

It's not suppose to be a competition!

I reject the notion that British Muslims are somehow unsympathetic toward the suffering of others. This is a gross generalisation. As for the BCM, they certainly do not represent the views of the 2 million muslims living in this country.

I'm sorry Mehdi, but I'm disappointed with this article. British Muslims in this country have many challenges and there is a lot to be critical of ( levels of employment, educational attainment, community interaction etc). I can appreciate you're desire to be objective, but this is just supplying ammunition to bigots who love these kinds of false assertions being made about the Muslim community

I have a funny feeling that "Tussant" is labouring under the weight of his/her own prejudices.

Mehdi Hasan

Fair play - you're completely right about this and it was a very well written piece. I like your work better when you're not being polemical.

By which I mean of course that Burgess will be forced to stand in the naughty corner till breaktime albeit with a revolver at the back of his skull. Nothing more.

@ Ian Burgess

Your gross ignorance of historical fact and your motives for doing so make the world I live in a little darker. Your post is contemptible and you should be ashamed of yourself.

we are not the same person.

"You think that disputing my estimate of 10,000, disproves my point."

It's proves the "every day loss" on the Eastern Front was a mere -20%- of what you alleged.

" In fact your figures prove my point, because the figures you mention are still huge loses that would require the Germans to rely on foreign labour."

And they did - THEY TRANSFERRED IT FROM THE OCCUPIED NATIONS. See John C. Beyer and Stephen A. Schneider's "Forced Labour under the Third Reich"...for example -
France (except Alsace-Lorraine)
1,100,000
Norway
2,000
Denmark
23,000
Netherlands
350,000
Belgium
500,000
Greece
20,000
Italy
180,000
Yugoslavia
270,000

These are ***NOT*** Jewish forced labourers...these are local -non-jewish- nationals under forced labour transfer.

To that...we can add over -TWO MILLION- Soviet POWs.

The Todt Organisation alone, from the years from 1942 to 1944, supplied ***1.4MILLION*** "Gastarbeitnehmer" (guest workers), "Militärinternierte" (military internees), "Zivilarbeiter" (civilian workers), "Ostarbeiter" (Eastern workers) and "Hilfswillige" ("volunteer") POW workers to the German workforce within the borders of Germany.

Mehdi would like there to another Jewish holocaust becuase of his support for Iran, he will apologize for his Muslim brethren afterward the slaughter.

Murray is excellent, sums it up beautifully,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=3dBzs...

@Mukhtaar of Disqus

"I thought this thing was uniquely for Jewish people. "

have you been living under a rock somewhere far away from books?

"What is it got to do with Muslims BTW?"

because Muslims are part of the human race they should take an active part in the remembrance. if you're not sure about this, then get in touch with the MCB, maybe they'll be able to get through to you.

@Stephen

"books by Germar Rudolf, Juergen Graf and Carlo Mattogno, amongst others."

ok, i'll take you up on this. what is it that these authors have said is wrong with the accepted wisdom of the Holocaust as we have learned it?

in your own words if you would be so kind.

Mehdi, I would respectfully submit that Muslim attitudes to apostates, homosexuals, and critics of Islam could do with a reappraisal as well.

Part of the problem facing historians reviewing WWII and the holocaust, is many jews are despertate to believe the worst.

This may be for political or mental health reasons, but they then use their influence to denounce legitimate debate as a 'hate crime'.

Preventing free speech and honest debate is the real reason for introducing 'thought crime, dressed up as hate crime' legislation.

A normal person would welcome news that a relative was not mutilated by a lunatic, but died peacefully in their sleep.

That said, establishing a true and accurate record has become easier, as the years pass, despite the best efforts of powerful lobby groups.

‘We British Muslims prefer to wallow in vicarious victimhood. Only "our" tragedies matter: Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kashmir, Chechnya roll off our tongues. But none of these surpasses the Holocaust's barbarism. The Nazi genocide cannot be relativised or generalised. It was an unprecedented act of industrial slaughter; a uniquely horrific crime against humanity’

What utter rubbish. British Muslims do not wallow in vicarious victimhood. We have respected and continue to respect the Holocaust victims and what the Holocaust Memorial Day stands for. It will do well for the Israeli Jews around the world to remember that it was an Iranian Muslim by the name of Abdol-Hossein Sardari, a diplomatic, who used his position in Paris at the time of the Nazi occupation to get passports for Iranian Jews and wove tall tales of faux-scientific stories to help evade the German authorities. Hence, so many of them are alive today to turn around and treat our brothers and sisters in the same barbaric way the Nazi treated them.

The Israeli President continues to push for war with Iran by claiming that Iran is on the point of producing a nuclear weapon. However, this was the same shtick Shimon Peres, said in 1996. (Isn’t it funny, that Peres did not say this when he and Rabin invited South Africa's prime minister, John Vorster, to visit Israel and tour the city's Holocaust memorial to mourn the six million Jews murdered by the Nazis. Voster has been an open support of Hitler, a member of South Africa’s fascist and violently anti-Semitic Ossewabrandwag and who was interned during the war as a Nazi sympathizer)

Additionally, the current Israeli PM, Netanyahu, some 13 years ago said in1992 that Iran would have a nuclear bomb by 1999. Now Netanyahu is pushing the same old tired story again. Demanding the US and its allies impose stiffer sanctions on Iran. Yet, it was Iran who helped Bush 43’s administration get rid of the Taliban, only to have them included in the axis of evil State of the Union speech by Bush. Yes, it was the Israelis again, who lied and pushed for this inclusion two days before the speech.

The Israeli settlements on the West Bank, in which no Arab Muslim Palestinian can live, are but an expression of racism. What about the 800,000 Palestinians expelled/displaced (a great number who has since died in refugee camps) because Israel wanted the Palestinians’ land for the State of Israel? Isn’t this a uniquely horrific crime against humanity?

Enough with blaming Muslims for not respecting Jews around the world. We have to tolerate traitors with the likes of Prince Alwaleed bin Talal who continues to invest with the likes of Murdoch who continues to use his TV and News Papers to ridicule and persecute our Muslim brothers and sister around the world. Time we Muslims band together and stop going to the so-called Mecca in Saudi Arabia. It is time we tell these hypocrites we will not listen to them. They are no role models and that goes for you too Medhi.

I was enjoying a relaxed snowy Sunday morning until I saw the latest comments on this thread. I would agree with Dave that the Holocaust shouldn't be exempt from research as a matter of principle, but his comment about Jews dying "peacefully in their sleep" made my jaw drop.

So, according to you two, those of the Jews who didn't return home were simply on some kind of extended camping trip, with a few perishing from typhus caught during those pleasant country walks, and others presumably expiring in their sleep from contentment with all the camaraderie? This simply beggars belief.

I'd advise you to scroll back up to Des Demona's comment on 30 January at 21.24 and look again at the photos in the link to the Atlantic. Now, do you imagine that workshops were set up in which countless people worked on a labour-intensive proto-Photoshop? And are you implying that all the evidence, eye-witness accounts and so forth are all just one huge, elaborate conspiracy? Consider for a moment just how many people would have to have been involved: how many Allied troops, of different nationalities, the local populations, the Jewish survivors and the families of those who never returned?

As someone who positions themself very firmly in the Palestinian camp on the intractable Israeli-Palestinian question, I find this staggering. Finally - and I fully realise this sounds like cheap point-scoring on my part - would you mind confirming that you aren't Muslim? Because I don't see why others should have to take the rap for your frankly bizarre views.

"jankass"

what now Dick?

"It is your duty to prove, rather than for me to refute, your claims."

ah, the weasely-worm approach. ok i'll show you mine, between 5 and 6 million Jews murdered;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust#Jewish

"It is a blood libel to say all Germans and their children's children are guilty. "

where have i said this Dick? i know, you're just making shit up.

"And finally, getting your facts right is vital to provide a true and accurate record? I find it odd you disagree?"

no disagreement Dick, i have no problem with facts. and you'd know this if you could comprehend my point that this is not about absolute numbers first and foremost.

still, it's now over to you. stop being such a dick Dick, and state the numbers you reckon are correct.

"You imply the Germans kept records of jewish labourers. Please could you provide the source of this information?"

No, I said that records are patchy, but there are extant records for SOME factories supplied with Jewish slave labour by DEST, such as the Monowitz Buna plant.

"Yad Vashem has revised its estimate of victims at Aushwitz downwards. How does this tally with your figures?"

Er....given the last dozen posts or so - the problem here is -YOUR- figures not reconciling with the historical record!

"And what is your estimate for the total casaulty figure in WWII and under marxist rule in Soviet Union?"

So far I've only been discussing YOUR Eastern Front daily death toll and your claim that the Germans used -Jewish- labour to make up all of that; I'm not about to let you expand the topic of discussion away from your own mistake.

That appears to be your tactic both here and in other discussions you've been involved in recently. I'm happy enough pointing out -your- mistakes in detail when you make them.

Yes, spot on. The figures from the channel 4 poll cited in the times piece were quite quite troubling :(

@inverness211

"Enough with blaming Muslims for not respecting Jews around the world. "

this one sentence is indicative of what is wrong with your whole post; it's not just about Jews, it's about remembering the most awful event ever inflicted by humans upon another group of humans. and that group just happened to be the Jews.

it could have happened to any of us. do you understand now?

The atrocities committed against the Jewish people by the Nazis is something that should never be forgotten. It does shame me that some fellow Muslims refuse to recognise this. 
As Muslims not only should we be recognising this tragedy but we should be standing with the world to ensure this never happens again. 
It fills me with horror that even today some commentators on the NS still advocate the final solution. Sickening

@Stephen

"The point is that there are plausible critiques of central aspects of the 'holocaust studies' narrative. "

and there are plenty of implausible critiques, some of which clash fatally, of which your 3 could belong. not saying they do, but they could. in turn;

Rudolph; doubts the total numbers involved.
Graf; can conclude all he wants, the consensus concludes otherwise.
Mattogno; would have wanted better forensic evidence. so would i, but this doesn't change what happened.

"If you know differently, I'd be interested to hear it."

it's really quite simple. but it does require you to accept that all the older generations in my family, are honest good people, and frequently talked about the number of Jewish friends & colleagues that were shipped off, and never came back. they lived through that period, under occupation, they knew for a fact their Jewish neighbours were taken away, and they never saw them again. unless you think they're all lying? for what purpose would my family, and countless others, concoct such grotesque lies?

where do you think these Jews went? are they still waiting in "transit"..?

to our national shame The Netherlands handed over much local and national census data to the Germans. which meant that it did not take too long to round up as and when they decided. about 75% of Dutch Jews left Holland and never came back. that's around 100.000 human beings, Dutch Jewish human beings.

where did they all go? i know. but you say they went somewhere else. so where is that then?

Coleridge-plenty of holocaust deniers/quasi fascists/antisemites in this country, throwing their lot in with the BNP et al Why is it highly unlikely that this man is a UK born Christian? Is holocaust denial a uniquely Islamic phenomenon now?

@ Stephen
''You are right that Rudolf's 'report' led to his imprisonment. It was published by a former nazi officer with an introduction without his knowledge, but under German law, Rudolf had to take the responsibility''

About as much bollocks as the rest of your posts. Rudolph was specifically commissioned by the Nazi Luftwaffe officer's defence to write the report. He did so in the full knowledge of what it would be used for.
Next.
Nah actually, as stated before, just fuck off.

Congratulations inverness211 on proving Mehdi's point.