On rape threats and internet trolls
What I've learned about the sexism directed at female bloggers.
By Helen Lewis Published 06 November 2011 13:33
On Thursday, I posted a blog about the sexist abuse that female bloggers routinely face online. I'd seen my fellow NS blogger Laurie Penny retweeting some of worst insults and threats that she gets, and remembered that I'd seen other women describe similar experiences.
What I didn't realise was quite how many people weren't aware of the problem. Large news sites filter out the worst abuse, and as one of our contributors pointed out, she doesn't publish insulting comments on her blog because they make it feel "squalid, unsafe and invaded".
The other thing I learned was that it isn't just the rape, death and other threats which affect those writing online. There is also a low-level sledging, based around gender, which wears down many female bloggers. Being described in loaded terms such as "shrill" contributes to the idea that your opinions aren't worth hearing.
Some people didn't want to hear it, of course: regular complaints were that we should "grow a pair" and accept that all internet commenters get abused. I dealt with this in the original piece, but it's worth restating here: the right to free speech is not the same as the right to make threats against another person. Nor does a mainstream news site or personal blog have any "duty" to publish a comment which unnecessarily attacks a writer on personal grounds. You have the right to hold your opinion, no matter how outrageous I find it: you don't have the right to have others pay (which they do, through hosting or advertising) for you to express it.
Others were just flat-out trolling: feminists inflicted far worse abuse on people, they claimed, without offering evidence of widespread rape and death threats to support that assertion. Of course, women are not immune from being nasty: I have no doubt that there are many female commenters posting unpleasantly. But what the bloggers who took part in the post were describing was a particular type of abuse, a combination of belittling comments based around gender, and threats of sexual violence. Jane Fae, a transwoman, observed that she had noticed a distinct difference between the comments she received posting as a woman from what she heard as a man.
Then there was the suggestion that feminists, in fact, liked this kind of abuse because they enjoyed feeling victimised, as it made them feel justified. That's one straight out of the "she was asking for it" playbook.
There were better critiques, though. I had a friendly disagreement with the Guardian's James Ball, who noted that internet commenters will find any perceived weak spot and attack it ruthlessly. "When netizens want to get personal, they hone in on any easy target: race, age, class or -- of course -- gender, that might get them a rise," he says. "Even middle-aged white men (debatably the least persecuted minority out there) are susceptible to abuse -- 'What do you know about anything, in your ivory tower?'"
When I'd finished drying my tears for the plight of middle-aged white men in our society, I considered what he'd said. I do think that the abuse dished out to all internet writers is something we should talk about: all websites like to have traffic, and engaged audiences. Have they been too ready to publish comments which don't add anything to the debate -- and may discourage writers from returning -- in the pursuit of hits?
Following the post, I was contacted by dozens of women, through Twitter and email, saying they'd had very much the same experiences. Some said it had made them reconsider writing; others that it had made them more determined. I've created a Storify of some of the most interesting early reactions, but first I want to share (with permission) two women's stories.
Petra Davis, a music and sex writer, told me [warning: graphic content ahead]:
I haven't written much for the last year or so (nothing sinister, just busy new day job) but when I was a regular sex blogger, most of my work was pseudonymous, some male, some female, some genderless pseudonyms, and I wrote from a variety of different gender perspectives.
I can state confidently that the abuse and threats, mostly of sexual violence of varying levels of inventiveness and sadism, that I received when writing under a female pseudonym, were misogynist -- it was only when writing as a woman that I was ever threatened that way. The abuse got more intense over time, with some commenters taking a particular interest in finding me on social networking sites and posting details under pieces I'd written.
When I started getting letters at my flat, I reported them to the police, but they advised me to stop writing provocative material. Eventually, I was sent an email directing me to a website advertising my services as a sex worker, with my address on the front page under the legend 'fuck her till she screams, filth whore, rape me all night cut me open', and some images of sexually mutilated women. It was very strange, sitting quietly in front of my screen looking at those images, knowing that the violence done to these other women was intended as a lesson. . .
Of course, it didn't take long to take the site down, but by then I was thoroughly sick of the idea and more or less stopped writing about sex from any perspective.
Nina Power, an academic researcher, was subjected to similar abuse on a blog popular with serving police officers after writing a piece about police violence. One commenter, called "PC Lightyear", opined: "Nina seems quite pretty. After we disband the Police, let's see pretty Nina walk through a sh1tty estate in say Elephant n Castle, Camberwell, Tottenham, Brixton, Lewisham, Wembley . . . and see how well her idea works out when the Gangstas decide they deserve to have her as a toy." [screengrab here]
Another chipped in: "She won't need to go for a walk -- once the Slag realised we weren't coming out of the nick, they'd go looking for her." A third: "Without a big, tough man to protect her, all her idiotic blatherings and demands to be treated as an equal will be for nothing when she is getting used as a ganstas 'toy'."
When one commenter says that such comments are unpleasant, a pious reply is forthcoming: "Lightyear isn't wishing it on her -- simply pointing out the harsh realities of the real world, away from the ivory towers of academia."
Power says: "Note not only the insane misogyny but also the racial/class stereotyping and the fantasy that rape is something that will necessarily happen in a world without police -- and especially, apparently, to women who criticise the police."
I thought Nina's and Petra's experiences were two of the most shocking I've heard, although they do speak to something that came up again and again: the threat of rape. It's made me feel distinctly less ready to shrug off the alleged hilarity of using "rape" to mean anything other than rape. I play computer games online and it's quite regular to hear "Oh, I raped you in that game", often said without any particular venom. Does such casualness lead us to forget how genuinely frightening invoking rape is?
PS. Laurie and I are both quoted in the Observer's news story on the subject today. Laurie also wrote on the subject in Friday's Independent. If you've blogged on this subject, do get in touch: I'm @helenlewis
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71 comments
er...inline? I mean online !
What a disgusting and vile place the internet is. It is as if all those nasty people hiding in their cars have rolled down the window so we can now hear them in all their glory.
There could be a series of documentaries about a person's beauty and what different people feel is attractive. Ridiculing the current media ideal would be the way to crack the psychological hold that is currently happening and causing problems.
Tatoos are really ugly. Please don't have a tat. It's like a dirty mark on your skin.
PERSONAL LIBERTY
Got a bit too much sun today. So that may explain why I'm up in the middle of the night here downunder. I told you i was an idiot. This sun can burn you black.
The question of personal liberty for a really great mind to solve with HIS ..and his alone!...really really great mind is how can two people lead the same dance?
Come on SNAKEY SNAKEY SNAKEY
Come out to Play
With daddy and Tell US
How two people
Can lead the same dance
And if you say compromise
How do you compromise
Comeon snakey snakey snakey
Here's your chance to prove
That you know know more than me
When it comes to the burning question
Of Personal Liberty
Comeoncomeocomeon
Lets play some real hard balls
Comecomeoncomeon
Lets dance
Shave your beard off and dance with the devil and the setting sun
Answer the question
its quite simple really
Comeoncomeocomeoecomecomeocoemceomcoemcoe
And is it possible to know about personal liberty MOORE that the Australian aboriginals?
Coming to You from the Land of Personal Liberty (its) it's are(our) ONE and sometimes lonely (only) David Bowie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4d7Wp9kKjA
Or are they just saying what they feel. Or are they just pretending that this is what they feel? I suppose some people will never know if all they do is pretend.
Finally actions speak louder than what they say When they cry at night by themselves and no one else can hear them ..maybe that's the only time when their voices are one..
Oh the grow a pair comment by Des Demona, thats a pretty offensive staement to a man..it means the man didn't do what the women wanted him to do whilst she stood and watched....
There are so many stories online of female bloggers getting emails that quote their address and with threats to come round and rape them where the police have been reluctant to do anything. How hard can it be to trace these people’s IP addresses and find them? The problem is that the police just don’t take online threats seriously. I think that in the future, someone who makes online threats will be dealt with as seriously as if they made them in person. I just hope we can get there sooner rather than later.
Check out my blog post>
http://www.ohdearism.com/2011/11/11/society-internet-trolls-and-the-f-word/
Lauren, IP' mean little in legal terms, what with internet cafes, wireless networks etc, and then the cost involved of obtaining possibly useless info. Not to mention the legal jungle that ensues.....A troll in some foreign country...well best of luck on that one. Limiting access must be first line of defence. but as Helen hinted at its a numbers game, 500 million users on FB equals revenue. 400 million means less.
ITT: People confirming precisely the point Helen's making - if in doubt, pretend there isn't a problem or blame the person raising the issue. Someone should make a bingo for bad sexism excuses...
Amy: "What seems to lie behind these wholly unacceptable attacks on female bloggers is the anonymity the internet affords"
Nope. Your theory is easily disproved by the numberless people who post under pseuds who do not take part in misogynistic attacks on female bloggers.
What lies behind these attacks is the acceptability of misogyny in mainstream discourse.
Whoa, there Yonmei , seen plenty of misandrist statements around the web, including your one above. Which came first the bigot or the web?
Has anyone else noticed that most people who leave aggressive, bigoted comments can't use an apostrophe, or spell worth a damn?
Personally I am grateful to hear this topic talked about. It does not astonish me how rabidly people like to say that this is not a problem but it is
Are you really really grateful?
Maybe you're just trying to become my friend
It all depends ..doesn't it. We can compromise and therefore you can do what I say.
Have you figured out the dance moves yet? How can you have two people leading the dance?
Have a think about all of this. Sleep on it. Perhaps though you wont get up in the morning.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XacvydVrhuI
The question is are you prepared to compromise and do What I Say?
Is not the person who points out other people''''s bad English also an aggressive bigot?
Their bigotry might be eating themselves.
samfromstroud: "Has anyone else noticed that most people who leave aggressive, bigoted comments can't use an apostrophe, or spell worth a damn?"
I think this is because many people can't use punctuation and don't know how to spell. We're just more forgiving of the many people in that category who don't leave aggressive, bigoted comments.
Though it's possible that some people think they're successfully disguising their writing style by misusing punctuation and spelling when they abuse others under a pseud.
Returning to Amy's point, though - it's clear that to many people, misogyny is completely acceptable. For example, on the previous thread, Mr Divine was arguing that some women want to be sexually assaulted - his sexual fantasy which he finds acceptable to post about under a familiar pseud: doubtless he'll find equally misogynistic defenders.
Yonmei; I asked you the question, how do you know that ALL women feel the same way as you do? You didn't answer that question. Are you speaking for all women?
For instance, I can say that I don't like to be chained, bound and whipped. But does that mean I am talking for ALL men? Some men like the idea of being assaulted in this way .. they even pay good money for it!
Yonmei do you like to be assaulted? Does any man like to be assaulted? Does any woman like to be assaulted?
Are you speaking for yourselfs'' or are you speaking for all wimmin?
btw: I don't need to have any 'supporters' ... most of the time ! ... but I don't mind if other people do.
Hiya Yonmei. I've missed you! I wonder if you'll answer my questions
I think MOST men don't like to be assaulted but VERY FEW obviously DO .. God know why!
Is that true about women? I can't speak for women because I'm not a woman no matter how I try I can't be you, Yonmei, a woman. A very attractive one at that!
Oh the Dance where two people lead.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0V6N4elMVX4
But someone has to start it. There are two steps beyond Helen.
It is possible to possible to Pogo. What do you think I've been doing?
It is more efficient if I said what I want to happen. The time is now.
"You have the right to hold your opinion, no matter how outrageous I find it: you don't have the right to have others pay (which they do, through hosting or advertising) for you to express it."
Hmm - Yes I can understand how one has the right to hold an opinion -no matter how outrageously it may be found; but surely this is because just who gets it eventually ( ie one's own opinion)remains one's own business.
And let's remember that on this side of the wonderful jungle that is the charity world, ordinary members of the public are actually allowed to make mistakes - unlike those who are working for some firm.
The position I'm coming from happily doesn't actually pay for anything. On the contrary, the opinions one offers out of the goodness of one's heart in places like this may well be the very stuff of outrageous fortunes.We all know this - it's common knowledge.
So, just who is following who here?
Alan, I would like you to design communal housing paying attention to quality and alternative energy sources. You could make plans from empty land, disused building, churches army barracks. Pencil and paper would probably be good for starters. And then you'll need others to complete the buildings.
I would be grateful if you could help me.
All my love Steve
From me mate from the 'pool.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b7qaSxuZUg
Remember remember the Fifth of November
When I said you are me and I am you
Then I said I am not all of you
I am me for all eternity
Well remember this
At the moment
I am not ALL of you
josephine;
Charity begins at home. Get your own house in order then move on. When I mean your house I mean your body as well. It doesn't have to be perfect .. it can be a bit frayed around the edges. Then you sort our partner and kids out... but you're kind of doing that at the same time.
Let's clarify that a bit further. No one, whatever their gender, enjoys being sexually assaulted.
Mr Divine's silly confusion of consensual BDSM with sexual assault may be the result of watching too many bad pr0n movies: he should probably leave his parents' basement and find some good feminist texts on owning your sexuality.
Richard Herring has written (and talked) about the Ricky Gervais "mong" incident in which he discusses some of the abuse he received, and concluded that a lot of the problem is simply that people are idiots.
One of my favourite quotes from George Carlin: "Think how stupid the average person is, and then remember that half the population are more stupid than that."
I am not trying to make light of the evident abuse that female bloggers receive simply by virtue of their gender. But I don't think that it is unique in any way; it's merely that there are certain categories of abuse which are more easily applied to women so they tend to be the default ones.
Snake Snakey with the grass
With the real good shit
Up his ass
He slips on through
And finds he's bitten
His own ass
Still there's plenty More where that has come from.
Across the veneer of the vendetta
There lies a lonely soul
Shrouded in a room
With his comic books
And his Teletubby
All shinny bright
If only he could play outside with all the boys at night
But nobody will give the time of day
Then all of a sudden a voice comes through
And says Fack you
Oh no I can't come out tonight
I've got more important things to do
But all the boys shout
What's more important you
Or us?
Look they shout
Get out and play a little
Bring your fiddle
And your razor too
Come and play in the street
With He and me
Don't be such a hermit be
Buzz Buzz Buzz
He He He
''The problem with telling women they are ugly is that they take it to heart''
Erm, I'm pretty sure most people (regardless of their gender) would not appreciate being called ugly!!!!
@Yonmei: thanks for that clarification.
'No one, whatever their gender, enjoys being sexually assaulted.'
But don't we need to clarify the word 'assault'. To assault someone is to force someone to do something against their will. Would you agree with that?
But then we have the problem of two people confronting one another. There is a very narrow path. Each person wants to get through but in order to do so that one person needs to step aside. But neither of them want to do that. How is the decision made?
You're right Yonmei. I do need to get out of the basement more. I shouldn't be side tracking this issue or going off into astro physics.
Yes you are right if people are forced to do sexual acts against their will then that is assault. If someone had sex with another person when they had refused or not given their consent for any reason whatsoever then that is assault. If the person said they only wanted sex if the person wore a condom and the man refused and carried on then that is sexual assault. If the woman was asleep and the man forced his way then that is assault.
I am apologise for trying to sidetrack or fudging the issue. I agree with you Yonmei. I am with you on this 100%.
As Yonmei said, " No one wants to be sexually assaulted." It's that simple.
Helen - If you choose to post on the internet then you have to accept that there are psycohtic people out there who are going to have a go at you. And they can because yoiu are on the internet.
Grow a pair wasn't the worst piece of advice you have been given.I said that on the basis that you hjave to say what you think and damn the consequences.
Making too much of the odd insulting or threatening comment from a keyboard nutter is not the way forward.
Bee: yes MOST people don't like to be called 'ugly'. Sometimes I get stuck into certain blokes because I want to 'shake' them a bit. Get them off balance a bit. For instance I got stuck into Alan Moore's appearance because he wants to chop down loads of trees to make a BIG book with his name on it... hasn't he caused enough environmental damage to the earth with his bullshit? Also he tries to implant negative images into people's minds. And his appearance frightens children. Then he has this pompous notion that he has worked out what the world is like! All he has done in his life is spend his time in a room with a pile of paper cut from beautiful forests. So I feel it is justified to call him all the names under the sun... because my motivation is the love of the earth and the children of it. People can't just go around destroying the world for their own personal satisfaction of seeing their name on some big fat paper book. There's loads of books in the libraries and why can't he just write like me without paper? No some people need to be chopped down to size. And don't get me started on the Royal Family pompous*******!
BTW; I'm not against some people writing paperback books .. if I feel the motivation is right.
Yes people abuse people on the internet, but it seems so very clear that women get a particularly nasty form of abuse which is aimed at them for being female and having opinions about anything.
Mr Divine is right on this.
Thanks Colin. I think mp3 and digital TV programs are a good way to 'sell' information. You don't need to wreck the environment.
Surely at least some of the abuse you are mentionning is illegal.
You should report such things even if only so the crime figures are accurate.
Just becuase its on the Internet it doesn't make it legal or invisible. People seem to think that the Internet makes them anonymous. Having worked at an ISP it quite plainly doesn't.
Yea that's true. I find it's best to compromise when my wife and I have a dispute. If I want red curtains and she wants yellow .. we compromise .. we have yellow curtains.
There again I'm a complete idiot so I have to do what she says otherwise I'm even more screwed up than I was last night.
There was this frog in me swimming pool today. I said lets keep it there. She said no it'll get in the works ... take it out. We compromised .. I took it out. I said I'll feed it to the chickens. She said no don't do that. We compromised .. I didn't feed it to the chickens.
Anyway in the end I put in this spare water tank I've got that I bought from the tip shop for 5 bucks.
Yea it's really important to compromise.
I hope the little frog is alright.