The grim reality in Gaza

113 comments from readers

mitchy
10 December 2007 at 13:27

It sickens me to my core that this great crime, in full view of the world, is allowed to continue indefinately. What sickens me even more is my own government sanctions this appalling treatment of people, allegedly acting in my name, whilst continuing to cravenly act as the lickspittle of the Unethical States of America.

I wash my hands of this country's poxy excuse for a government. Pah!

Tom Paine
10 December 2007 at 14:04

I'm just waiting for the pro-Israel lobby to start claiming either that the author doesn't know what he's talking about or that he is lying! No stop, it's a blood libel...

eileen fleming
10 December 2007 at 14:13

Israeli Public Security Minister Avi Dichter has canceled his PR trip to Britain over concerns he could be arrested on war crimes allegations.

Dichter was due to travel to Britain to participate in an "after Annapolis" conference to focus on the aftermath of the November US conference/photo-op.

As head of Israel's Shin Beth internal intelligence agency, Dichter was involved in the 2002 Israeli attack in Gaza in which an Israeli warplane dropped a one-tonne bomb on the house of the head of Hamas's military wing, Salah Shehade, killing him, his bodyguard and 15 civilians, many of them children.

What really gets my Irish up and flaming is my American government's blind allegiance to Israels blatant disregard for international law, human rights and responsibilites as military occupiers.

What keeps my Irish up and flaming is that I have been to OPT five times since June 2005 and many USA Christians -in particular politicians-ignore the non-negotiables such as we must love all people and "Love is not the starving of whole populations. Love is not the bombardment of open cities. Love is not killing......Our manifesto is the Sermon on the Mount, which means that we will try to be peacemakers." -Dorothy Day

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor

Http://www.wearewideawake.org/

Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"

Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu"

Amihai
10 December 2007 at 14:25

Israel of course still allows fuel, electricity, water, food, medicine, building materials, etc. although in smaller quantities. Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?

Furthermore, the Gaza state of affairs could have been different, substantial different if only the authorities there, Hamas, opted to adhere to the three simple demands of the entire international community, i.e. UN, EU, Russia, US, Arab states, Palestinian Arab Presidency, and:

1) Recognize in principle Israel's right to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people

2) Adhere to all agreements negotiated between the Palestinian Arab leadership and Israel and signed by the parties

3) Cease all acts of terror and violence against Israel and Israelis and all preparations for such acts

The Hamas authorities in what became Hamastan since June of this year have refused to adhere to any of the above requests. Instead of recognizing Israel's right to exist they emphasize over and over again, both in words and in deeds their call in their very charter to annihilate the Jewish state. Instead of adhering to agreements, a basic element in any proper relationships, including international relationships, they state clearly that they would only adhere to those agreements that they see fit with the interests of the Palestinian Arabs as they define them. And instead of ceasing all acts of terror and violence, which by themselves are violations of signed agreements, they call for more acts of "resistance", euphemism for terror, in order to "liberate all of occupied Palestine", euphemism for the entire geographic area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, including of course the entire Jewish state of Israel so that an Islamist state will come in its stead.

The responsibility for the Gaza situation is strictly in the hands of Hamas. Anyone with a bit of intellectual honesty, human decency must call upon the Hamas, here and now, to adhere to the demands of the entire international community, all of it, for the sake of the people of Hamastan.

Cybertiger
10 December 2007 at 15:09

@NadaKatz

1) Recognize in principle Israel's right to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people

2) Adhere to all agreements negotiated between the Palestinian Arab leadership and Israel and signed by the parties

3) Cease all acts of terror and violence against Israel and Israelis and all preparations for such acts

Hamas adheres to Israel's three simple demands.

Q. What would Israel do?

A. Nada, nada, nada.

Amihai
10 December 2007 at 15:19

Cybertiger,

As Israel's Prime Minister as well as Israel's Foreign Minister stated several time, Israel would deal with Hamas as it has been dealing with the Fatah and with the Palestinian Authorities, hoping to reach an agreed accomodation of peaceful co-existence between Arab and Jew, between Israel and the Palestinian Arabs in this shared Land of ours.

Hence I call upon you and like minded to call upon Hamas to adhere the three requests of the entire international community, all of it!

For the sake of human decency, would you do that?

rizom
10 December 2007 at 15:36

When Hamas terrorists/anti Semites will make an education, medicine, food ... to be a priority instead of making, smuggling and buying weapons by the truckloads and trying to kill as many Jews as possible by indiscriminately bombarding schools, nurseries, colleges...inside Israel then the "hardship" of Palestinian people in Gaza will disappear. Blame Palestinian terrorists for the situation in Gaza not those who fights against those homicidal maniacs.

Tom Paine

Nice try - doing everything possible to shut people up whoever disagree with your pro-Palestinian propaganda.

PlanetStarbucks
10 December 2007 at 16:01

I'm sure somewhere collective punishment is banned by an international law or two.

I could be wrong though.

Tom Paine
10 December 2007 at 16:11

Cybertiger for your own sanity just ignore Madav and he'll go away. He's a LOONY!

Tom Paine
10 December 2007 at 16:14

Rizom, I'm not trying to shut anyone up. The people who bombard and bully every time this issue comes up are the anti-democrats not me! I want the Israeli state to survive but it won't thanks to murderous maniacs like you. Israel - a classic example of the abused becoming the abusers.

Cybertiger
10 December 2007 at 16:23

"He's a LOONY!"

Thanks for your good advice Tom - Madav is the sterotypical cuckoo in the Zionist nest - I'll try and fly over it.

Amihai
10 December 2007 at 16:31

PlanetStarbucks: "I'm sure somewhere collective punishment is banned by an international law or two. I could be wrong though".

I assume, Ms./Mr. Starbucks, you are referring to collectively punishing the Jewish community in Israel that is being targeted on a daily basis and fired upon with Qassam rockets and mortars, indiscriminately, located in the towns of S'derot, Orakim, Ashqelon, and the socialist kibbutzim (collective farms) in the western Negev. Am I correct?

Cybertiger
10 December 2007 at 16:42

Tom Paine said, "Israel - a classic example of the abused becoming the abusers."

And it strikes me that the Gaza of today is a rhyming couplet with the Warsaw ghetto of yesterday. History may not repeat itself but there are certainly some unpleasant history rhymes doing the rounds just now.

Amihai
10 December 2007 at 19:45

How nice it would be to end this discussion with a simple announcement by the Hamas that it is willing to adhere to the three simple requests of the entire international community, including the Arab world and the Palestinian Arab leadership, as mentioned above.

But Hamas appears to value death over life, destruction over construction, regression over progress, all achieved through the use of weapons, explosives with the Quran in the hand.

How sad, how sad indeed that such people are being supported by some lunatics at this "progressive" publication!

jlevyellow
10 December 2007 at 20:19

Public relations on the backs of humans. Hamas can take one of its arms smuggling tunnels and run a pipeline through it for the fuel it needs. They curse the darkness that they have imposed upon themselves instead of lighting a candle. Happy Hanuka to you all.

mazaluk
10 December 2007 at 21:47

Hamas has recently arrested 115 drug dealers and growers, and netted more than 200 kilograms of marijuana, 340 blocks of hashish and 2,340 marijuana plants in the Gaza StripGhussain said some of the drugs, valued at $4 million, were smuggled through tunnels into Gaza from Egypt.

Also sales of Viagra are 'rocketing'!

So the situation in Gaza can't be that dire - can it?

eileen fleming
10 December 2007 at 22:22

"Israel is a not a democracy but is an Ethnocracy, meaning a country run and controlled by a national group with some democratic elements but set up with Jews in control and structured to keep them in control.”-American Israeli, Jeff Halper, Founder and Coordinator of ICAHD/Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions and a Noble Peace Prize Nominee for 2006, to this civilian journalist during one of my 5 trips to Israel Palestine since June 2005.

International law demands that occupation is to be temporary-40 years is NOT and that the occupiers are to supply all the needs for the occupied.

Jeff Halper also said:

“Missing from Israel’s security framing is the very fact of occupation, which Israel both denies exists…and that “security” requires Israel control over the entire country…rendering impossible a just peace based on human rights, international law, reconciliation.”

“The Israeli government simply does not want to take responsibility and the USA government ignores the situation."

“Israel has no constitution but has a Declaration of Independence which promised that Israel would abide by conditions and UN resolutions. They have not fulfilled the agreement which was the basis of their independence.”

“Tony Blair said 70% of all the conflicts in the world can be traced back to the Israeli Palestinian conflict. What gives us hope is that as this conflict worsens maybe Europe will figure out that American policies are against their interests and intervene...This conflict impacts the global community and especially everyone in the USA."

“If we do fix this conflict it would be a tremendous step forward in global reconciliation...This whole issue is based on Human Rights and it is a global issue requiring global intervention."

“It has been said that the Israeli’s do not love this land, they just want to possess it."

"There have been three stages to make this occupation permanent. The first was to establish the facts on the ground; the settlements.

"There are ½ million Israeli’s and four million Palestinians here. They have been forced into Bantustan; truncated mini states; prison states.

"It is apartheid and Bush and Hillary are both willing collaborators.

"In 1977, Sharon came in with a mandate, money and resources to make the Israeli presence in the West Bank irreversible. The second stage began in April 2004 when America approved the Apartheid/Convergence/Realignment Plan and eight settlement blocs.

"This is just like South Africa! The Bush Sharon letter exchange guaranteed that the USA considers the settlements non-negotiable. The Convergence Plan and The Wall create the borders and that is what defines Bantustans. Congress ratified the Bush plan and only Senator Byrd of West Virginia voted no and nine House Representatives.

“Israel has set up a matrix of control; a thick web of settlements guaranteed to make the occupation permanent by establishing facts on the ground.

"Israel denies there is an occupation, so everything is reduced to terrorism. It is our job to insist upon the human rights issue, for occupied people have International Law on their side.”

"Israel is not a democracy, it is an ethnocracy: full rights to Jews, but not Palestinians.”

"Do you know why Israel does not want to become America’s 51st state? Because then they would only have two senators! "

Eileen Fleming, Reporter and Editor

Http://www.wearewideawake.org/

Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"

Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu"

eileen fleming
10 December 2007 at 22:37

Gaza is an open air prison for 1.5 million human beings.

After evacuating the illegal settlers from Gaza in 2005, Israel continued to control all access to Gaza by land, sea, and air.

Most all of the colonists were resettled in other illegal settlements in the West Bank.

The continuing U.S.-Israeli boycott and isolation of Gaza that has turned the Gaza Strip into a humanitarian disaster, a huge Israeli-controlled prison with what the World Bank calculates at 87% of Gazans living below the poverty line.

Phyllis Bennis, a Fellow of the Institute for Policy Studies (www.ips-dc.org) and the Transnational Institute in Amsterdam. Her most recent book is "Understanding the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict: A Primer"

She wrote:

"Israel is the occupying power, maintaining its occupation of Palestinian land in violation of scores of UN resolutions calling for an immediate end to the occupation of all of the West Bank, all of Gaza and all of occupied East Jerusalem.

"Israel is required to abide by – not to negotiate, but to abide by – all the obligations the Geneva conventions and other international laws impose on occupying powers, including the absolute prohibition of settlements, prohibition against collective punishments, and more.

"The Palestinians are the occupied population, whose protection is the primary obligation of the occupying power and the international community.

"In 1988 Palestinians made the historic (though largely forgotten) compromise when they gave up their claim to and recognized Israel as a state in 78% of historic Palestine (when even the UN Partition Agreement only assigned Israel 55%).

"...the continuing U.S.-Israeli boycott and isolation of Gaza that has turned the Gaza Strip into a humanitarian disaster, a huge Israeli-controlled prison with what the World Bank calculates at 87% of Gazans living below the poverty line."

e

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

Amihai
11 December 2007 at 03:41

Eileen Fleming,

With all due respect, the Gaza Strip, Hamastan if you will, is fully controlled by Hamas, a military organization that has taken over control of the area from the Palestinian Authority in June 2007 during a brutal military takeover. Neither Israelis, civilians or soldeirs, nor PA authority personnel can operate in this independent entity.

The Gaza Strip, indeed, is surounded on three sides by Israeli forces by way of protecting Israel from this enemy territory, but it is not controlled by Israel.

The Gaza Strip, incidentally as you know, is also bordering Eygpt!

If Hamas wishes to become a proper international player it must, instead of attempting to eliminate a UN member state, Israel, adhere to international norms of conduct and in the process achieve both peace and prosperity to its people.

This, it appears, is not Hamas's intent. I therefore suggest you address your complains to them and not to the victim of Islamism and Islamists in our region.

chloe
11 December 2007 at 07:50

What is being done to the people of Gaza is a monstrous crime. I was shocked to core when I read this article. It's unforgivable that such crimes are being committed in our name and with our tax dollars nut without our knowledge and support. From now on, I'll be using this as a litmus test when voting. Any politician who's complicit in this can forget about my vote, my money and my support.

Israel is acting monstrously and anyone defending this should hang their heads in shame and ask the world for forgiveness.

And Nadav Katz, you really need to brush up on current events before repeating misinformation and obvious propaganda. It took me all of 2 minutes to find out that Hamas was legally and democratically elected with no brutal military takeover. If Israel wishes to be considered a civilized nation, she needs to act decently. I can't believe you have the nerve to admonish Hamas for not adhearing to international norms of conduct when Israel is illegally occupying another territory and denying its inhabitants of rights guaranteed, under the Geneva Convention, to people under occupation. I'm shocked to the core by such callousness and manipulative disregard for truth.

Amihai
11 December 2007 at 08:27

"What is being done to the people of Gaza is a monstrous crime". Indeed, which is why the people of good will abroad must demand to bring to justice the leaders of Hamas responsible for abusing the population of the Gaza Strip. They should be accused of crimes against humanity, for bringing misery upon the Gazans while attmepting to mass murder as many Jews inside Israel as possible.

Avihu
11 December 2007 at 08:43

chloe,

It is the entire international community rather than a single poster to the New Statesman that accuses Hamas of not adhering to international norms of conduct and that includes not only the UN, EU, Russia and the US but also Arab states and the Palestinian President!

Cybertiger
11 December 2007 at 10:19

@Avihu

"It is the entire international community rather than a single poster to the New Statesman that accuses Hamas of not adhering to international norms of conduct ....

And it is the international community that says nothing about the Palestinian children shot in cold blood by the forces that defend Israel. Shame on the international community!

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

Remember Iman al-Hams, one of 971 Palestinian children slaughtered by the IDF since September 2000.

"5 October 2004, Iman Samir Darwish al-Hams, 13, of Rafah, Gaza, killed by IDF gunfire to her head, chest, limbs and abdomen on her way to school near the Tal Zarub army post."

Cybertiger
11 December 2007 at 10:47

Avihu said,

"Indeed, which is why the people of good will abroad must demand to bring to justice the leaders of Hamas responsible for abusing the population of the Gaza Strip."

And I am looking forward to seeing the Israeli perpetrators of crimes against humanity hanging from lamposts in the central square of The Hague. May God allow Ariel Sharon to be the first of many abusers to be punished ...

Avihu
11 December 2007 at 11:05

Cybertiger, what has Sharon, presently hospitalized, done to you that you would execute him, an act considered by human rights organizations an act against humanity?

IrritatedofTonbridge
11 December 2007 at 11:45

Oh it's Sharon's human rights we're after now, is it? Silly me I forgot. Avihu, Nadav Katz (they're probably the same person) believe in human rights - but think they should only apply to Israelis. Thankfully that's not a standard most of us apply. Settlement in East Jerusalem anyone? Huge increase in racism towards Israeli Arabs? Starving people in Gaza? They deserve it because of the racist extremists on both sides, don't they?

Avihu
11 December 2007 at 11:54

So, IrritatedofTonbridge, you would execute Sharon for the construction of housing for the needy in the municipal territory of Jerusalem; you would put this sick man to death for the fact that Israeli Jews respond to statements by freely elected Arab leaders in Israel that they don't recognize the right of the Jewish state to exist - contrary to UN resolutions - and act upon it; and you would ensure that this man is no more, the same man who cleansed the Gaza Strip of all Jewish civilians and ordered the Israel Defence Forces out of what later bacame Hamastan? Facinating logic! Wow!

Cybertiger
11 December 2007 at 12:13

".... you would execute Sharon for the construction of housing for the needy in the municipal territory of Jerusalem; you would put this sick man to death .... the same man who cleansed the Gaza Strip of all Jewish civilians ... "

So, the 'Bulldozer' is an ethnic cleanser ... and should be punished for his crime against humanity. No?

Cybertiger
11 December 2007 at 12:14

Avihu, please tell me - why does the IDF shoot Arab children? Mr.Katz says that Israel kills all terrorists (and never mind the collateral) but I don't entirely believe his stories or find his manner entirely convincing. Why does Israel kill so many Arab children?

PS. accusations about blood libel are an unconvincing smokescreen ... and just a lot of silly crap.

Avihu
11 December 2007 at 12:28

Cybertiger,

When gangsters of terror, people whose intention is to mass murder, situate themselves in the midst of civilian population, the civilian population, that incidentally is willingly assisting them in this case, gets hurt by those trying to extricate the gangsters and bring them to trial. This is sadly the nature of an on-going war of terror, something that fortunately Europe and Britain have never experienced on their soil.

One additional element that you must consider if you are honest to yourself, Israel also uses its superb medical facilities to assist Palestinan Arabs, both during military operations and throughout the year precisely because it is part of our Jewish code of ethics to care for the sick, injured, needy, regardless of her or his nationality.

But we are first and foremost concerned about life and consider the protection of life, including Jewish life, as the very first of all human rights!

Cybertiger
11 December 2007 at 12:39

"But we are first and foremost concerned about life and consider the protection of life, including Jewish life, as the very first of all human rights!"

What a complete load of bollocks ... you must either be Mr. Katz ... or an American nutter ...

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/01/20070119.htm...

Avihu
11 December 2007 at 12:50

Cybertiger, who is Mr. Katz?

Cybertiger
11 December 2007 at 12:58

Q. " .... who is Mr. Katz?"

A. ... nada, a nobody ...

IrritatedofTonbridge
11 December 2007 at 13:11

Excuse me, since when did I call for anyone's death? I leave that to the Israeli government, its institutions and their political and military equivalents (albeit not as well equipped and less effective) in Hamas.

gnuneo
11 December 2007 at 13:41

nadav: you claim that hamas has not recognised Israel, and that is a reason why Israel continues in its aggression - yet WHEN did Israel recognise *Palestine*? WHEN did Israel accept the green-line as its borders? WHEN has Israel dismantled illegal settlements in the West Bank? (you DO accept they're illegal? Oh yes, i remember - you always ignore such questions).

and now Israel is replaying the sanctions placed upon the Iraqi people as punishment for them rising up against saddam - do you have even the few brain cells to realise what this will mean? The Peoples of this planet will collectively despise Israel for these actions, and when the tables are turned (and they always do), when Israel is facing 10s of millions of irregulars pouring towards its isolated and oil-blockaded borders, you will remember your harsh words here, and you will wish you could take them back and eat them.

despite what the Israeli leadership has done and is doing, despite the fanatics and propagandists like yourself, when that day comes (and it is rushing towards us faster than you could possibly beleive), then i hope, and indeed pray, that Israelis are treated better than they have treated the Palestinians.

in your fear of the Holocaust, you have done naught but attempt to create another. I hope you fail.

Robert Powell
11 December 2007 at 15:22

How on earth can you equate the democratically elected Israeli government and, er, democratically elected Hamas? Shame on you, shame.

PP Nadav Katz, Cell 5, Looneybin, Jerusalem.

Robert Powell
11 December 2007 at 15:39

Actually I'm wrong of course, Nadav isn't confined to his cell today. He's pushing deep into Gaza - or 'Greater Israel' as he calls it. Nadav, did you destroy the petrol station? A bit gratuitous when you consider it had no fuel.

eileen fleming
11 December 2007 at 17:13

A Little History on Hamas:

In 1987, the Arabs living in the territories occupied by Israel ever since the 6-Day war began a series of riots known as the Intifada/Rising Up and casting off.

Independent from PLO leadership, fundamentalist Islamic militants founded the Hamas movement.

The more hopeless people become, the greater the pull towards fundamentalism and violence becomes.

Hamas was formed from the Mujama movement, which had been a political party with no military ambitions and had been encouraged by Israel as a means of countering the influence of the PLO.

Hamas has a 'military' wing or wings that engages in terrorist acts and a 'civilian' wing that provides social services in the refugee camps.

Hamas would not even exist if Israel was not a military occupier.

Israel successively assassinated its leaders, Sheikh Ahmed Yassin and Sheikh Ahmed Rantissi, forcing the leadership to go underground.

In January of 2006, during a clean and transparent and democratic election, Hamas candidates swept to victory in Palestinian elections, overcoming the corrupt Fatah which has become another layer of the occupation.

END the occupation and fundamentalist militants will loose their power.

e

http://www.wearewideawake.org/

jlevyellow
11 December 2007 at 18:49

Cybertiger needs to see pictures of Palestinian children watching Hamas "activists" send Quassam rockets randomly into Israel.

http://www.science.co.il/Arab-Israeli-conflict/images/Rocket...

How about a picture of Hizb'Allah's next generation of haters and fighters.

http://www.israel-wat.com/28eng.jpg

It is a plain old-fashioned Islamic war going on over there. Grow up.

mazaluk
11 December 2007 at 22:38

Er, arn't there two borders to Gaza, one that strikes into the heart of Israel and one that leads to Egypt? Why should it be Israel that provides all the resources for the Gazian Arabs? Why don't their Egyptian brothers supply the fuel, food and medical equipment rather than the guns, explosives and drugs that they are doing at the moment?

I think we should be told!

chloe
11 December 2007 at 22:54

To Jlevyellow. Pictures? You mean like pictures of the lovely young Israeli children writing "with all our love" on the bombs Israel uses to kill defenseless children and their families?

http://www.radioislam.org/lebanon/jewish-gifs/Jewish-kids-ex...

http://www.radioislam.org/lebanon/jewish-gifs/Jewish-kids-ex...

http://www.radioislam.org/lebanon/jewish-gifs/Jewish-kids-ex...

There are many more pictures of the effects of the cynical perversion the Israeli apologists are are trying to hide: http://www.radioislam.org/lebanon/jewish-gifs/index.htm

There is NO excuse for murdering innocent people to steal their land and their resources.

I am thankful, jlevyellow, that there are growing numbers of courageous Israelis and Jews around the world who are standing up for truth and justice.

http://zope.gush-shalom.org for more information.

chloe
11 December 2007 at 23:23

mazaluk .

Is Egypt occupying Gaza?

Did Egypt murder Palestinians to steal their land?

Is Egypt in defiance of over 40 UN resolutions for atrocities towards the Palestinians?

Good God man, why are you going on about Egypt? Israel is the occupying power which is criminally in contravention of the 4th Geneva Convention that guarantees certain humanitarian rights to the Palestinians.

Good God.

End the occupation. NOW.

jlevyellow
12 December 2007 at 01:54

Dear Chloe,

Jews need a home of their own. And it is people like you who insist on complete altruism on the part of the Jews alone, and not on the part of the Palestinian Muslims that convinces most thinking Jews to eschew your position.

I do hope that you are a Christian. Perhaps your heart will be touched by the following post, which constitutes an open letter to Senator Lieberman of the Foreign Affairs Committee

http://blog.americancongressfortruth.com/2007/12/10/senator-...

You might understand more of what faces both the Jews and you in "turning the other cheek." View a segment of "Submission." Then get back to me.

You might also try Bat Ye'or's book on what will become of you and yours if Islam triumphs

http://www.amazon.com/Dhimmi-Jews-Christians-Under-Islam/dp/...

Finally, you might wish to try Phillip Salzman's historical analysis of the cultural roots of Islam before suggesting that anyone in their right mind would choose to subjugate themselves to an Islamic government. Even the Arabs of East Jerusalem are clamoring to retain their Israeli identity cards in the event that their villages revert to Palestinian control.

http://netwmd.com/blog/2007/12/10/2152

When you are become better education both as to the facts on the ground and the feelings of trepidation that Jews might feel throwing themselves on the mercies of the Muslims, then you might accept that it is not a win or even a draw for the Jews in giving away Samaria and Judea that were gained in a defensive war. Happy Hanuka.

By the way I have seen the pictures that you posted and they are so antithetical to Jewish values that I question their authenticity. How in the world would Israeli children have access to live artillery rounds? Should they be veridical, then I abhor the lessons so taught, as much as you.

jlevyellow
12 December 2007 at 02:08

Dear Chloe,

I forgot to post the link for "Submission." It was the film begun by Van Gogh that brought about his death by ritual slaughter in Holland a number of years ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXGZBs65qMs

jlevyellow
12 December 2007 at 02:23

Dear Chloe,

After a few moments' thought on the matter, I wonder whether any information no matter how much or how high the quality can change your thinking on what the Jews should do to make things right and what the Palestinians can do to make things right. What information do you require that will get you to switch sides?

I am particularly distressed about the picture of the child writing on the artillery shell. Your failure to question its veracity makes me wonder. I can tell you that such shells are never within a child's reach in Israel. If you found it to be "psychological warfare," would that change your mind? If nothing will suffice, then you need to think about your internal makeup.

Cybertiger
12 December 2007 at 12:22

@jlevyellow

"I am particularly distressed about the picture of the child writing on the artillery shell."

I once supported the foundation of Israel but now Israel seriously distresses me. In my opinion, Israel's right to exist was made forfeit when the defensive strategies turned to killing Palestinian children ... like 13 year old Iman al-Hams.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html

gnuneo
12 December 2007 at 13:01

to those who support this blockade of gaza - are you aware of what this might be used for? Are you aware that every argument you are making in 'support' of your blockade, will very soon be used against Israel when IT is blockaded by the oil states and denied oil?

are you aware the same arguments for occupying Palestine (the religion is too fanatical, it can only be defeated never accommodated) will also be used against yourselves?

i have been to Auschwitz, and i have worked on kibbutz, i am no racist anti-semite, but i tell you here and now, that every unclean, ungenerous, uncompassionate thought and act you create and perpetrate, will be counted against you. Jahweh will judge you soon, and look at what He will see. Not pretty, is it?

you secular Jews have forgotten your roots, but your religious scholars know well what you have done, and are doing. Yes, those very same ones who refuse to be part of the Occupation.

In your insane dreams of Eretz Israel, you should remember what happened to Germany, and in your treatment of your neighbours, you should remember what happened to Poland between the WWs.

and most of all, you should remember that during the terrible, insane times of Hitler, the Jews in the muslim countries were largely safe, with less hostility and racism shown than to black people in today's UK. You should remember that ALL empires come and go, and that small nations that shelter under them can suddenly have that shelter removed.

and last of all, you should remember that true Jews eschew violence, that the innermost lesson to be learned from the Holocaust is NOT to copy the same tactics and use them on weaker peoples, but that such horror is ALWAYS to be opposed, both within and without us.

embrace your cousins the Palestinians, and treat them like you would wish to be treated if the roles were reversed - not only will this save your souls, it will also very likely save your actual lives.

and you KNOW (if you are still human), that this is the RIGHT thing to do.

the Palestinians are not the German's of the 1940s, they are the Jews and Polish.

what would you have liked the German's to have changed about their behaviour back then? Do it yourselves.

Cybertiger
12 December 2007 at 13:12

Magnificent! Very well said, gnuneo!

Avihu
12 December 2007 at 15:00

Readings the above posts coming from Europe, I wonder, do we live in the year of 2007 or is it rather 1937.....?!

And do these people wish to see in four years time the beginning of what commenced in 1941.....?!

I hope not, but it sure sounds this way!

Elie Elhadj
12 December 2007 at 15:31

Peace requires de-politicizing the Bible and the Quran

A single state for Arabs and Jews in Palestine is the durable long-term solution.

Politicizing Genesis 15:18 politicized the Quran; instigating a religious war that could last for a thousand years.

The Zionist dream of an exclusive Jewish state in Palestine is unsustainable, unless the Palestinians vanish.

Hundreds of thousands of Jews lived in Arab countries peaceably for centuries. In Coningsby, Benjamin Disraeli, first and so far the only Jewish British Prime Minister (1868 and 1874-1880), described in glowing terms the “halcyon centuries” in Muslim Spain where the “children of Ishmael rewarded the children of Israel with equal rights and privileges with themselves.” Sultan Bayezid-II (1481-1512) encouraged thousands of Jews to settle in the Muslim Ottoman Empire following their expulsion from Spain. That the migration of 850,000 Jews from Arab lands around 1948 was due to Arab maltreatment of Jews is an unfair charge. The migration happened during Israel’s creation, when more than 500 Palestinian villages were de-populated and about 800,000 became refugees.

Islam venerates Judaism. The Quran made Abraham as the first Muslim. Islam is the Religion of Abraham. The Quranic Chapter 14 is named after Abraham and, to Joseph the Quran names Chapter 12. Today, Jewish derived Arabic proper names are common.

Feeling powerless, the Arab masses invoked hostile Quranic Verses, recounted stories of the Prophet’s troubled relationship with the Jewish tribes in Medina, drew lessons from substituting Friday for the Sabbath and the direction during prayer from Jerusalem to Mecca. For thirteen centuries, however, these events were non-issues.

Politicizing the Bible pushed frustrated moderate Arabs into orthodoxy and the orthodox into Jihadism. Witness the growth of Hamas and Islamic Jihad, among other Islamist groupings.

Had Zionism adhered to the stipulation in the 1917 Balfour declaration: “Nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine,” this conflict would not have developed.

The Bible and the Quran must be de-politicized.

The two-state solution is capricious:

First, demographically, a purely Jewish state is unachievable.

Secondly, issues like Jerusalem, borders, security for Israel and for Palestine, water rights, settlements, and the refugees’ right-of-return are intractable. When Bill Clinton, Ehud Barak, and Yasser Arafat attempted in July 2000 to tackle these issues at Camp David, the negotiations collapsed, leading to the second intifada.

Thirdly, even if a miracle patches up a two-state agreement, the extremists on both sides would undermine it.

Fourthly, the Arab masses will shun a Zionist state. Judging from Israel’s peace treaties with Egypt (1979) and Jordan (1994), relations among the Egyptian and Jordanian masses and Israelis have failed to develop beyond small diplomatic missions.

Western democratic and secular ideals and Jewish sense of justice should inspire a single, democratic, and secular state:

First, the intractable obstacles would disappear.

Secondly, a single state will commingle Palestinians and Jews into an inseparable mix. Arabs would no longer have an excuse to boycott their Jewish “cousins.” Economic, cultural, educational, and social interaction would follow.

Thirdly, a single state solution would allow Arabs and Jews access to the entirety of Palestine.

Durable peace requires the genuine welcome of the Arab masses of the Jewish people. The Jews who had lived among Arabs could be a positive factor. Both peoples share customs, habits, values, food, music, dance, and, for the older generation, the Arabic language.

In provoking the enmity of their age-old Muslim friends, Zionism has disserved the long-term strategic interests of the Jewish people. In Christian Europe, by contrast, centuries of maltreatment of Jews culminated in the horrors of the Holocaust.

IrritatedofTonbridge
12 December 2007 at 15:55

Avihu or 'Nadav' as most of us know you, the Holocaust is not an excuse for the atrocities being meted out on a regular basis by the Israeli state. It might be an explanation but it's not an excuse. Use this, the blood libel as much as you like but being a victim in the past does not justify being a perpetrator now and in the future. It's a lesson far-right parties in like the BNP in Britain could learn.

IrritatedofTonbridge
12 December 2007 at 15:56

...sorry just realised that needs a bit more explanation. The point I was making is the BNP always make out they are victims - they hide their racism and hatred behind that facade.

Avihu
12 December 2007 at 17:51

It is interesting, no one so far has suggested that I am wrong to make the comparison between 2007 and 1947 that I made earelier and share with readers one more time here:

"Readings the above posts coming from Europe, I wonder, do we live in the year of 2007 or is it rather 1937.....?!

"And do these people wish to see in four years time the beginning of what commenced in 1941.....?!

"I hope not, but it sure sounds this way!"

Robert Powell
12 December 2007 at 18:20

That's because you're talking bollocks. It's not even a remotely comparable situation except in your paranoid mind. Anyway, how do you know these posts are coming from Europe? You don't. Pathetic.

jlevyellow
12 December 2007 at 21:27

Dear Cybertiger,

1) There have been Jewish children as well who were slaughtered with the purpose of scaring the Jews into giving up their state. The Jews will not give up their country.

2) You remove from context my concern about the child writing on the artillery round. I explained in my post that I doubted the veracity of the picture given that I know of no circumstance in which a Jewish child would be allowed to approach live rounds.

3) We live in an imperfect world, but apparently your support for Israel would only be forthcoming if its government and people were perfect. Use the same criterion for the Palestinians. Failure to do so places in the camp of the anti-Semites. Reciprocity in all human relations!

edith crowther
12 December 2007 at 23:14

In 1939 Britain recognised in a White Paper that the scale of immigration into Palestine was threatening the very existence of the indigenous population, contrary to the promise of the Balfour Declaration. Several other countries noticed the same. Thus when in 1947 the fledgling United Nations agreed to vote on whether or not a new country called Israel should be created by partition of Palestine, there was a grave danger that the required two-thirds majority in favour of partition would not be achieved. Only frantic pressure exerted by Zionists upon the USA and via the USA upon Liberia, Haiti, and the Phillippines secured the required majority.

This railroading action was seen by Americans themselves as disgraceful. In December 1947, the US State Department requested that a presidential statement be issued, admitting the undue pressure, and promising prosecution of future offenders and a review of existing legislation since it had been invoked to stop the bullying of small countries and had proved incapable of stopping it. (RG59, Office of Near Eastern Affairs Palestine, Box 1, Merriam to Henderson, Top Secret, 11 December 1947.)

Zafir Khan, the Pakiston delegate to the UN, claimed that had the partition vote been taken on Weds 26 Nov. 1947, it would have been 26 to 16 (instead of the eventual 26 to 13) and thus been defeated. But a delay was secured by Zionists directly from President Truman (RG59, Decimal Files 1945-9, Box 2183, 501). During the delay Liberia, Haiti and the Phillippines were ordered to vote Yes, Liberia being threatened via its main source of export income, the Firestone Tire and Rubber Company (Forrestal Diaries, Box 4, vol.9).

Keyword: "Railroad, verb: 1) to convict with undue haste and by means of false charges or insufficient evidence; 2) to push through hastily or without due consideration" (Merriam Webster Dictionary). Meaning 2 has thus led to the horror of meaning 1) for the Palestinians. They have been falsely branded criminals when in point of fact they are the victims of fraudulent hijacking of a UNITED NATIONS vote, followed by armed force in 1948 to enforce the fraud.

Avihu
13 December 2007 at 07:46

Regarding the 29 November 1947 vote to establish an Arab state and a Jewish state in Eretz Israel/Palestine, actually the two most important major blocs of votes came from 1) The Soviet bloc, and 2) The Latin Armerican bloc. The first, as a result of a decision made by Stalin at the time, and the second as a result of a decision made at the Vatican. The Jewish community hardly had any influence on either but the ability to simply convince people based on the merit of the matter itself.

What is wrong with diplomacy? Isn't every country and every group of people tries to influence others when advance a particular interest? Is it only that the Jewish community, when it is involved in international diplomcy doing something wrong? And why do some think this way.....?

To now attempt once again to blaim the international Jewish "Cabal" speaks volumes about those making the accusations and their motives.....!

Pencils
13 December 2007 at 08:06

Thanks to everyone who can still be bothered arguing with Nadav ( or maybe his mother) - I just can't hack it at the moment. At least you can be rude to him on this site, unlike the slimy Guardian's CIF site, where Nadav and his ilk can say what he's like, but anyone that engages with them has to be on best behaviour or be barred.

The saddest thing is that scarcely anyone in Britain cares that a nation is being walled up and starved, and the saddest thing about that not caring is that it's probably because the British people no longer seem to care about themselves - no left, scab Labour party, scab unions, scab everything. It would make you weep! Before breakfast too! Aaargh!!

IrritatedofTonbridge
13 December 2007 at 09:28

So let me get this right. No-one has talked of a Jewish world conspiracy or a Jewish cabal so Avihu/Nadav drops it in order to claim the comments unsympathetic to Israel's bloody policies are motivated by anti-semitism. It reminds me of the Nazis killing a bunch of concentration camp internees and scattering their bodies of the German/Polish border in order to justify a bloody invasion.

jlevyellow
13 December 2007 at 09:47

Edith Crowther has the audacity to view the Palestinians as victims when they have so clearly added to their own victimization by insisting on all or nothing at all.

Frankly, the Palestinians have more going for them than their equivalent brethren in other Arab countries. Prior to the Jews arrival in Judea and Samaria in 1967 there were no hospitals or universities. Now they have both. As among the Jews, education has become a major consideration for the Palestinians, so much so that those who hold Israeli identity cards because of their residences in the Jerusalem area are clamoring to remain within the borders of Israel, whether they "like" the Jews or not. Smart Palestinian parents eschew the ideological education offered by the Palestinians in favor of the less volatile but more useful Israeli style. They also prefer Israeli health care and employment opportunities.

I beg you otherwise decent folks to give up your hatred. Life will go on even if the Jews retain their viability as a separate entity. You are all perfectly capable of thinking of reasons to justify Israel's existence, rather than the opposite.

edith crowther
13 December 2007 at 10:05

Avihu, this was a vote in the General Assembly of the United Nations. Diplomacy is the negotiations that precede such votes. Next you will be saying electoral fraud in democracies is "diplomacy".

In any case diplomacy does not include bullying and arm-twisting in secret. It can take 3 forms:

1) Arbitration/mediation

2) Conferences

3) Negotiations

Negotiations are sometimes informal (Track II diplomacy) but they are still above-board and fair play. Track II uses academics or other experts to express government intentions to other countries informally, or to suggest methods of resolving a situation informally. Not interfering in a UN vote by telling Firestone to threaten Liberia with withdrawal of business, etc. There is a different word for this, several different words actually. "Skulduggery" is apt, but really a legal term conveys the wrongness better - breach of trust, deceit, demanding with menaces, etc. Even these words are inadequate in view of the appalling results on millions of human lives.

Cybertiger
13 December 2007 at 12:44

@jlevyellow

“Reciprocity in all human relations!”

Revenge and retribution are more apt words when it comes to human relations of the Zionist kind – in my humble opinion.

“Use the same criterion for the Palestinians. Failure to do so places in the camp of the anti-Semites.”

Truly pathetic, you horrible, morally bankrupt, ethically destitute little person!

Cybertiger
13 December 2007 at 12:52

@edith crowther

“"Skulduggery" is apt, but really a legal term conveys the wrongness better - breach of trust, deceit, demanding with menaces ….”

I think Jewish lobbyists (diplomats) have proven themselves masters of skulduggery … in league, of course, with the ever deceitful ethnic American.

jlevyellow
13 December 2007 at 14:14

Dear Cybertiger,

"Truly pathetic, you horrible, morally bankrupt, ethically destitute little person!"

And this is your argument for not treating the Palestinians with the same measuring stick as the Jews? How strange. Surely you realize that ad hominem attacks are irrational.

Cybertiger
13 December 2007 at 15:52

@jlevyellow

“And this is your argument for not treating the Palestinians with the same measuring stick as the Jews? How strange. Surely you realize that ad hominem attacks are irrational.”

And the stick the Jews measure by shows 971 Palestinian children to 119 Jewish kids killed in this perverse conflict since September 2000.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2007.html

Of course, these measures demonstrate the true rationality – and reciprocity – of the Jewish ad hominem attack on Arab children.

jlevyellow
13 December 2007 at 23:00

Dear Cybertiger

Now you have reverted to semi-rationality.

Let me suggest to you that if another Kassam rocket or similar projective never flew over the border again (or similar act), then not another Gazan child would die as a result of Israeli military actions.

On the other hand, if Israel never again responded to a Kassam attack, a similar response from Hamas would not be forthcoming.

If this difference in definition of reciprocity make no sense to you, then I presume by reciprocity you mean that an equal number of Jews and Arabs must die to make things reciprocal. That makes sense.

Allow me to bring you up to date on today's news. Thursday's random shelling of Sderot sent a woman to the hospital with "moderate" wounds. In Israeli terms that usually means that only a limb was lost. She was sitting in her kitchen. On the other hand, three Palestinians died today. They were on their way to fire Kassams. One who died was well-known arms smuggler. You do know, as do most people on this page, that random shelling of civilian targets might constitute a war crime. The daily random shelling of Sderot and the surrounding communities represents at the very least an act of war. Don't you agree?

Cybertiger
14 December 2007 at 07:41

@jlevyellow

"Now you have reverted to semi-rationality. "

I seem to be going backwards. Yesterday I was irrational and today I understand I'm only half way there.

PS. Israel in Texas. I believe Israelites - like you - are destined to grow yellow roses under the Lone Star.

Cybertiger
14 December 2007 at 07:44

@jlevyellow

Is it for fun? Is it because they can? Why does the IDF shoot Palestinian children in such large numbers?

yc
14 December 2007 at 11:32

The whole world knows that what Israel is doing is insane. It's genocide. The situation in FORMER Palestine is like a modern day holocaust. Why would anyone, especially Israel, want to repeat that? I don't care about Israel's petty reasons for destroying a human race, what I am more concerned about is that there are sickos out there that actually agree with it. I know suicide bombings are desperate. Thats why they occur. These people have nothing and therefore have to defend their right to exsist. I do not agree with it but when you come from a place where you are a refugee in your own homeland, what else are you supposed to do? How else do you defend yourself from modern day nazi's?

jlevyellow
14 December 2007 at 16:56

YC raises questions as to why Muslims commit genocide by suicide. Let me offer the following psycho-biological reason that they would rather die than switch.

Because Islam permits polygyny, there are an insufficient number of women available. What does a young man do without prospects for matrimony? One answer is to look as manly as possible - macho. Some take it to extremes and annihilate themselves, and others in the process. It is not for poverty, but for manliness that they do it. It may indeed be the poor who annihilate other, but that is because they have poor prospects for marriage.

Ask yourself why middle class Saudis with professional futures annihilated 3000 people on 9/11 that they had never met or knew anything about. Too few women in Saudi Arabia for the number of men. That is because the Saudi men are rich enough to get their max of four. That leaves 3 of 4 men without.

Cybertiger
14 December 2007 at 17:44

The yellow one emits psycho-biological babble like Nadav the chameleon ... G-d help us all!

PS. You haven't answered my question above. Is it for fun?

jlevyellow
14 December 2007 at 19:07

No it is not for fun that Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian children, or men for that matter. They do not hold parties for their martyrs either. On the other hand, the custom among Palestinians is to distribute candy upon the killing Israelis. The larger number of Israeli dead, the more candy they give out on street corners. I hope you are not surprised by this observation. Probably you know it is true.

Nor have you responded to my observations on multiple wives except with blanket rejection. What precisely causes men and barely men of the Muslim faith to kill others while they kill themselves? I don't buy blind hatred, though that is what is expressed.

Why is the lack of available women not a fine explanation for the overly macho behavior of Muslim men? Look at the preening and prancing that goes on among other male animals to acquire mates. Sometimes animals fight to the death to acquire or protect their female possessions. I say, "One man, one woman." That will solve much of the underlying anger in the Muslim world. Enough of this eugenics experimentation. It has failed to produce an improvement over the cave men.

Cybertiger
14 December 2007 at 20:15

@jlevyellow

"No it is not for fun that Israeli soldiers kill Palestinian children .... "

... so why do Israeli soldiers behave like latter day Nazis ... and kill Arab children, over and over again? Why?

yc
14 December 2007 at 23:27

Isn't that what the German did to the Jews? Cause mass genocide because of religion.?

Jlevy "Let me offer the following psycho-biological reason that they would rather die than switch.

Because Islam permits polygyny, there are an insufficient number of women available."

And then Jlevy continues to insult Islam in a childish manner. Israel has destroyed a home land and now is trying to destroy a people by taking away their land, freedon and basic human rights. Israel throws innocent people into 'refugee' camps and fires rockets into palestinian towns. Not only does Jlevy seem to back these human rights violations Jlevy also insults their religion and culture. Jlevy's comments prove my point entirely, that Israeli policy seems to reflect that of what happend in Germany.

Cybertiger
15 December 2007 at 13:03

The little yellow person has gone quiet ... I expect shabbat is being celebrated ... and yet more silly justifications are being made ... for the onward continuation of Nazi like behaviours by the defenders of the greater Israel.

jlevyellow
16 December 2007 at 02:15

Dear Cybertiger,

I can see that I have entered a dialog with people without reason or mercy. What would "the little yellow person's" fate be in your hands? Contemplation of such a fate justifies my will to fight.

And yes indeed, I was celebrating Shabbat. Frankly, what you need in a Yom Kippur. Do your parents and/or children know that such hate fills your heart?

jlevyellow
16 December 2007 at 02:28

Dear Cybertiger,

My guess is that your openly expressed hatred is designed push away any reasoned opposition to your dearly held theme of "Jews as Nazis." It is such a simple explanation that it serves no useful purpose.

Frankly, Cybertiger, your well-reasoned presumption that I was celebrating Shabbat suggests to me that you are a disaffected Jew. Pull yourself out of the mud and find your own reason to come home.

Cybertiger
16 December 2007 at 08:42

"... what you need in a Yom Kippur."

I think you are in need of a Yom Kippur moment - or ten - to atone for the multiple sins of the Israeli state, for the hell into which Israel has descended.

PS. There seems to be so much hate around in Israel today. By disaffected Jew, I presume you mean 'self-hating'.

PPS. "Jews as Nazis." - a rhyming couplet. "History doesn't repeat itself but it rhymes" - Mark Twain.

Cybertiger
16 December 2007 at 08:49

"Dear Cybertiger, I can see that I have entered a dialog with people without reason or mercy. "

"The quality of mercy is not strain'd, It droppeth as the gentle rain from heaven, Upon the place beneath ... "

In my humble opinion, that gentle rain no longer falls on the land of Israel, the Holy Land, the place of unreason ....

Cybertiger
16 December 2007 at 08:55

"What would "the little yellow person's" fate be in your hands?"

What was the little yellow person's fate at the hands of big boy America on 6 August 1945? Has the little yellow Jewish person contemplated that?

Cybertiger
16 December 2007 at 12:42

"What would "the little yellow person's" fate be in your hands? Contemplation of such a fate justifies my will to fight."

I guess the yella fella is scared and I can understand his fright. But know thine enemy. Does jlevyellow know who is the real enemy of the Jews? Please look to the Lone Star in the West and feel afraid, truly afraid ….

jlevyellow
16 December 2007 at 13:21

Dear Cypertiger,

I see you have learned the art of "taqqiyah" well. Never respond to the ideas of the "other." Always attack. Always change the subject. Always demonize.

If you do those things in your ordinary relations, I am sure you have none. I see that in order to continue your attacks you even had to change my language to suit your preconceived notions: "disaffected Jew" to "self-hating Jew." There is a subtle difference, but you cannot even allow for that difference, because it would break the mold you hold so dear.

You will have to work on your own problem with the pre-judgment of others (i.e. Jews) and their motives. However, I can tell you that your failure to deal with "others' arguments" will leave you intellectually and emotionally scarred for the rest of your life. I am truly happy that I do not have to deal with you in the real world.

So as not to fall into the same pattern, I will respond to your challenge directly. " But know thine enemy." You are my enemy by the exercise of habit and the Lone Star in the West is not yet my enemy, but I am aware that there are no friends in politics, only interests. Politics, like war, is deception.

Truly, oil is the enemy, or the fear of the lack of it. By this metric all people can go to hell as long as there is enough for the powers that be. Turn your anger to the good side and find a solution to the energy crisis; try working on the potable water problem as well. Doing that will reduce the time and energy you have taken to express enmity for the jews.

jlevyellow
16 December 2007 at 13:32

Dear Cybertiger,

This is my last post since I just accidentally fell into this list.

I am a devotee of www.israel21c.com. Please visit it on occasion. Will you do so, just for the sake of my having taken my time to engage you?

Cybertiger
16 December 2007 at 20:52

"Never respond to the ideas of the "other." Always attack. Always change the subject. Always demonize. "

I love it!! The yella fella never did answer my question. He always changed the the subject and proceded to demonize the 'other'. I just have to larf, and larf out loud. Pathetic! I hate it!

Why does the IDF kill so many Palestinian children? Is it for revenge?

Cybertiger
16 December 2007 at 21:29

"I am a devotee of www.israel21c.com. Please visit it on occasion. Will you do so, just for the sake of my having taken my time to engage you?"

I have not found you engaging! Why should I be impressed with 21C Israel? The reality is that Israel is a primitive nation governed by the ancient law of lex talionis, the law of retribution - an eye for an eye and a shekel for a pound of flesh.

mazaluk
20 December 2007 at 16:31

Chloe:

Is Israel occupying Gaza?

Did Israel murder Palestinians to steal their land?

Good God woman why are you going on about Israel? Hamas is the occupying power which is criminally in contravention of the 4th Geneva Convention that guarantees certain humanitarian rights to the all people.

chloe
20 December 2007 at 18:51

MazalUK You make me ill.

YES Israel is occupying Gaza- criminally and illegally as clearly stated by the UN.

YES Israel murdered and continues to murder Palestinians to steal their land.

Good God,apparently no lie is too low for you. Hamas is most certainly NOT an occupying power- it's the democratically elected government of Palestine.

Please don't waste my time with your lies. I have no use for war crime apologists and deliberate liars who can't recognize simple basic facts.

chloe
20 December 2007 at 19:51

Dear jlevyellow,

Those pictures of Israeli children scrawling hateful messages on rockets destined to kill Lebanese children are quite authentic. You can see one of them for yourself in the Jerusalem Post: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPAr...

-- "Questions over the photos' authenticity have been put to rest by authorities that were present during the incident, which occurred on July 17 near the northern border."

The parents, IDF officers and soldiers were present the entire time, gazing approvingly and encouraging this.

-- "An official close to Israel's public relations campaign said that there was "no way" to spin the incident in a positive light."

Your comments to me, and others, have several factual errors and are imbued with the same kind of racist superiority the Germans used to justify their crimes against you.

To quote you: "Prior to the Jews arrival in Judea and Samaria in 1967 there were no hospitals or universities. Now they have both. "

That's a bunch of crock and ranks right up there with "we made the dessert bloom". That statement is is so ignorant it, it made me gasp.

Ahli Arab Hospital, GAZA, PALESTINE has been there since 1882. You may not have heard about it because the TOWs fired from Zionist Apaches have been doing their damndest to destroy it so you can continue with a string of lies deliberately calculated to erase Palestinian history. Before the Nakba, the great catastrophe of European Jews terrorizing them to steal their land, Palestinians were the most educated people in the Middle East. UNESCO ranked them as the most educated society in the Middle East and their literacy rate was one of the highest in the world. (http://www.unesco.org/delegates/palestine/sc1.html)

You are apologizing for the genocide of innocent people and have no idea what's going on in Israel. I hope you open your heart and eyes before it's too late because such apologetics are destroying Israel. The world won't forgive this crime anymore than it forgave the Germans.

God made it very clear in Tractate Ksubos, folio 111 that Israel was not to be re-established by force and that there wasn't to be a Jewish state before Moshiach. Israel is a Zionist state. A few politicians davening on Yom Kippur doesn't make it a Jewish state. What is doubly offensive are claims to be representative of Judaism when the Israeli government has declared war on Torah. Never in Jewish history, even during the time of Jeroboam or Achav, have such God-hating atheists stood at the helm of the Jewish people as today. Supporting their crimes pits you directly against God and humanity. Is it worth losing your humanity for that? We will never have peace with an honest acknowledgement of the truth so that good-faith negotiations, based on facts on the ground, can take place. Surely all Jewish and Palestinian children deserve to live in a world that's not destroyed by their parents hatred/resentment.

We can debate all day about the cause of the horrible situation of the Palestinians. The fact is that their situation is significantly worse than that of Arabs living in nearby nations and Jews living in the new state. You wouldn't know this because you clearly don't care about the welfare of any single Palestinian much less the entire lot of innocent Palestinians. You may not even protest my having said that. That's sad.

Palestinians don't necessarily deserve special treatment due to their unfortunate history and I'm won't excuse some of their horrible resistance methods. But to undermine their history in order to obtain special considerations (or to bolster an existing hatred) is inappropriate and intellectually dishonest.

I wish you peace jlevyellow. I wish it to you and every honest person affected by the unfortunate colonialization of a country in a century when colonialist methods can no longer be excused. And I do wish you a secure home where Jewish people can rest their head and reconnect with their history- but not at the expense of crowding out another people.

Shalom

Avihu
21 December 2007 at 07:50

As posted above, Israel of course still allows fuel, electricity, water, food, medicine, building materials, etc. although in smaller quantities. Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?

Furthermore, the Gaza state of affairs could have been different, substantial different if only the authorities there, Hamas, opted to adhere to the three simple demands of the entire international community, i.e. UN, EU, Russia, US, Arab states, Palestinian Arab Presidency, and:

1) Recognize in principle Israel's right to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people

2) Adhere to all agreements negotiated between the Palestinian Arab leadership and Israel and signed by the parties

3) Cease all acts of terror and violence against Israel and Israelis and all preparations for such acts

The Hamas authorities in what became Hamastan since June of this year have refused to adhere to any of the above requests. Instead of recognizing Israel's right to exist they emphasize over and over again, both in words and in deeds their call in their very charter to annihilate the Jewish state. Instead of adhering to agreements, a basic element in any proper relationships, including international relationships, they state clearly that they would only adhere to those agreements that they see fit with the interests of the Palestinian Arabs as they define them. And instead of ceasing all acts of terror and violence, which by themselves are violations of signed agreements, they call for more acts of "resistance", euphemism for terror, in order to "liberate all of occupied Palestine", euphemism for the entire geographic area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, including of course the entire Jewish state of Israel so that an Islamist state will come in its stead.

The responsibility for the Gaza situation is strictly in the hands of Hamas. Anyone with a bit of intellectual honesty and human decency must call upon the Hamas, here and now, to adhere to the demands of the entire international community, all of it, for the sake of the people of Hamastan.

Algiers
23 December 2007 at 02:51

Avihu at least recognise palestine as a state before you ask Hammas democratically elected goverment to cease any resistance.

I haven't seeing you answering any question truthfully and i don't know why you copy and paste your answers.

the world now knows the reality of the zionist now and you're loosing the grip,you and jewish lobby .

http://www.newstatesman.com/200201140009

Avihu
23 December 2007 at 17:33

Algiers,

The state of Israel as I have stated several times, has invited the Hamas to join the peace process as part of the rest of the Palestinian Authority, the goal of which is the establishment of an accomodation of peaceful co-existence between the parties including of course a nation-state for the Palestinian Arabs along side the Jewish state of Israel. This has been expressed in public in Hebrew and English, and possibly in Arabic, by Israel Prime Ministers and Foreign Ministers, including at the UN, and all of this is based on the recognition of the Palestinian Arabs as a people with the right of national self-determination as all other peoples.

We, Jews, however, are still awaiting for any Arab leader to recognize Israel, in any boundaries, as a political entity that is here by right, and not only as a fact, and it is, based on relevant UN resolutions and based on the uiversally accepted right of peoples to national self-determination. And based on this very right we are still awaiting for any Arab leader to recognize Israel as the nation-state of the Jewish people. As of today, the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs don't even recognize the existence of the nearly 4,000 year old people as a people!

But note, the list of demands in my post above is not mine; it is rather one generated by the UN, EU, US, Russia, Arab states and the Palestinian Presidency!

Wouldn't you add your voice to this list of people demanding of Hamas to seek peace instead of war, Life instead of death, construction instead of destruction and misery?

Cybertiger
23 December 2007 at 17:40

Oh G-d, give it a rest Nadav! Israel is only interested in violent retribution and the killing of Palestinian children to provoke it.

Avihu
23 December 2007 at 18:47

"Israel is only interested in violent retribution and the killing of Palestinian children to provoke it". (Cybertiger).

This is indeed a form and an example of present day anti-Jewish blood libel!!!

Cybertiger
23 December 2007 at 21:52

@Katz aka Avihu

"This is indeed a form and an example of present day anti-Jewish blood libel!!!"

Holy sh*t - you really are a tedious s-of a - b! Yawn!!!

truth
24 December 2007 at 04:21

"Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?

ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

What right does Israel have to control the border between Gaza and Egypt anyway? If Israel wants to control the crossing at Eretz, fine. But Rafah? Palestinians have a right to things like medicine and food, or do human basic rights cease when certain groups engage in what they have been told to do?

Remember, the West told the Palestinians to have free and open elections. At the time of the elections, for better or worse, Hamas was the only organization doing anything for the Palestinians. At that time, Hamas had ceased engaging in any "terrorist" activities, in an attempt to be fully engaged in the political process. Just like the IRA in Ireland.

But once they were elected, without even giving them a chance, the West decided the Palestinians do not have the right to elect whomever they wish to elect and proceeded to engage in collective punishment, which is outlawed by international law... oh wait, I almost forgot: international law does not apply to Israel, only to the hundreds of other countries on the globe. For some reason, Israel gets full-fledged immunity from international law violations.

I don't understand this double-standard. Israelis elected Ariel Sharon (amazing violator of international law and human rights) and no one said a word. Why is that permissible? Or do only certain people have the right to self-determination?

I have to repeat the question posed by a previous poster b/c no one has answered it yet:

Why do Israeli soldiers feel the need to kill so many Palestinian children? Don't give me a b.s. line about militants being in civilian areas, because many of these children were murdered in wide open spaces while others were murdered at home or at demonstrations (oh wait, I forgot again: Palestinians don't have the right to demonstrate, either... silly me, what was I thinking?). Yet you are so up in arms about the few pathetic rockets being fired at Sderot and other places that rarely kill anyone. Are you not outraged by the Palestinian children being slaughtered by the IDF? I thought the Torah says that whoever kills one person it is as if he has killed the whole world entire.

Or does that line from the Torah not apply to Israelis?

End the occupation! Human Rights for Gazans!!!

Avihu
24 December 2007 at 07:05

"Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?"

I am still waiting for an answer!

Cybertiger
24 December 2007 at 11:22

As said by truth,

“Are you not outraged by the Palestinian children being slaughtered by the IDF?”

We’re still waiting for an answer. Tell us the truth please, Mr. Avihu.

Avihu
24 December 2007 at 11:29

"Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?"

I am still waiting for an answer!

truth
24 December 2007 at 12:45

Avihu,

So if a militant few are lobbing useless rockets into Israel, that gives Israel the right to deprive the other million of basic food and medicine? I don't get that logic at all.

Define "enemy entity" please. B/c as I recall, Israel labeled Gaza an enemy entity only recently to allow the cuts in fuel and other supplies. So before a October or so, Gaza was not an enemy entity.

To answer your question, Israel doesn't have to supply all these supplies to Gazans. Whatever supplies Israel gives to the Gazans, it can stop giving it now. Please don't act like Israel is doing the Gazans any favors. Quite the opposite is true, in fact.

What Israel has to do, however, is open the Rafah border crossing at least to allow supplies from other countries to come into Gaza. Gazans can't even get supplies from other countries.

It is a violation of international human rights to prevent citizens of a country from leaving their own country to go to a 3rd country. Gazans are not citizens of Israel so Israel has no right to prevent them from leaving Gaza. Forget going into Israel. Why can't Gazans leave to go to Egypt or any other 3rd party country?

Because the Israeli government knows it can act with total disregard toward international law and it will face no punishment. It is a bully country. No country should be allowed to act like Israel is acting.

I don't know of a single other country on earth that is allowed to violate international law with total disregard for innocent human life and is not so much as officially sanctioned by the international community. Does anyone here know of such a country?

Cybertiger
24 December 2007 at 13:33

Q. "Does anyone here know of such a country?"

A. The Banana Republic of the USA ... and that's for truth ...

Cybertiger
24 December 2007 at 13:46

@truth

“I don't know of a single other country on earth that is allowed to violate international law with total disregard for innocent human life and is not so much as officially sanctioned by the international community.”

On 29 November 1947, the General Assembly of the United Nations made a dreadful mistake by sanctioning the State of Israel. In 2007, while winning the war on peace, Israel is actually losing the moral right to exist – in my humble opinion.

Avihu
24 December 2007 at 15:42

"Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?"

I am still waiting for an answer!

Cybertiger
24 December 2007 at 20:45

"I am still waiting for an answer!"

Israel is a tragedy, Avihu a comedy. Are you 'waiting for G-dot', the tragicomedy in two acts?

Avihu
25 December 2007 at 11:44

Note, I am still waiting for an answer!

truth
25 December 2007 at 12:42

It is obvious, Avihu, that the only answer acceptable in your limited mind is "None." You have been offered answers that you do not like so you do not accept them as answers. Typical Israeli apologist.

Israel is not continuing to supply Gaza with anything because Gazans decided to exercise self-determination. That's the truth. Gazans can get their supplies imported from other countries besides Israel. That's the truth. The only reason Gazans are suffering is because the Israeli government is acting like G-d and deciding who gets to live and who gets to die. That's the truth.

Of course, Avihu, your only response will be "I'm still waiting for an answer," which makes debating you a joke. It's like debating a child (or is that insulting to a child's mental capabilities?).

gnuneo
29 December 2007 at 23:19

"Indeed, I don't know of a single other country on earth that would continue to supply an enemy entity with all of these supplies while its citizens are being targeted on a daily basis by rockets and mortars as Israeli citizens are. Does anyone here know of such a country?"

I am still waiting for an answer!"

then *here* is your answer - Iraq is still trading oil with the USA.

as for other examples, simply look to all the other occupations across the globe - russia is supplying chechnya with vital supplies, china tibet.

what you seem to fail to grasp, is that those laws that force Israel to assume responsibility for the people under their military, economic and social occupation, was to write into international law rules backed by force that would prevent such instances as hitler's 'lebensraum' nightmare, as well as what happened to warsaw's jews.

these laws were specifically aimed at preventing the worst horrors of the early 20th century.

is it not therefore of concern to you, that these specific international laws that at preventing the excesses of Nazi Germany, that you feel these laws put an 'unfair' burden upon Israel, that in fact it *should* be able to invade, occupy, and then round up and deny basic essentials to a neighbouring people, that you are so convinced of your human, racial, social and moral superiority that *you* are free to act as Nazi Germany had done?

how often to you check your own 'moral mirror'? Do you even have the ability left to be that self-honest with yourself?

because i can tell you it is of concern to *me*.

yes, for the palestinians, of course, but also i remember all those good people i met in israel, on kibbutz and around the country, and i shudder with horror the almost inevitable holocaust you are herding them into.

they do not deserve such spokespeople as yourselves, they deserve people like chloe, and before it is too late, i desperately hope they get some.

gnuneo
30 December 2007 at 00:36

and one more thing - if the positions were reversed, if it was israelis, jews inside gaza and the west bank, or just conditions like it, would you prefer on the muslim side a spokesman/leader like chloe, or one like yourself/selves?

you should ponder long and hard on that.

happy new year.

:N.

xx

gnuneo
30 December 2007 at 02:36

ps - wouldn't you like to be the generation that brings peace to the Palestinians and to Israel? The generation that secures a good life for all in the region of Israel, an Israel respected and slowly welcomed by its geographical neighbours?

an Israel that no longer faces threats based upon the treatment of the Palestinians, an Israel no longer crippled by an enormous military commitment, an Israel that can share its knowledge and wisdom with its neighbours to generate wealth and development for all.

if you can remember even a basic part of your mythology, or indeed someone's posts a few above, would indicate that such an approach by Israeli leaders would be their choice to return to Israel as foretold - the respected bringers of wisdom and knowledge, with their own quirky religious ways, and in the region of Israel/Palestine with a *secular* constitution and legal system to guarantee equal rights to all religions.

do * i * even * need * to * point * out * the * foretold * consequences * if * Israel * continues * on * its * present * path?

be the Generation That Brought Peace.

...please?

Have a good New Year, and all the best in 2008.

:N.

Cybertiger
31 December 2007 at 13:39

@gnuneo

"do * i * even * need * to * point * out * the * foretold * consequences * if * Israel * continues * on * its * present * path?"

I feel an overwhelming confidence that with the New Year almost upon us, that the Israeli democracy will soon declare open, the very final game, the apocalyptic end games, of Armageddon 2008.

gnuneo
02 January 2008 at 19:45

@cybertiger: i refuse to beleive the Chosen People could be so stupid.

Cybertiger
02 January 2008 at 21:17

@gnuneo

"i refuse to beleive the Chosen People could be so stupid."

"Only two things are infinite – the universe and human stupidity, and I am not sure about the former”, said Albert Einstein.

Algiers
03 January 2008 at 00:46

Violence breed violence, if Israel think they going to defeat a nation by turning their lives into misery then shelves are full of history books.

you can't rule people by the fist,it simply doesn't work believe me!!.

Hamas is divided in two section,the political side with

social programmes like building schools, hospitals and religious institutions if Isreal wish to talk

or

militant operations carried out by Hamas' underground Izzedine al-Qassam Brigade if they wanted it the hard way.

Hamas offered a 10-year truce in return for a complete Israeli withdrawal from the occupied Palestinian territories: the West Bank, Gaza Strip and East Jerusalem,if Israel wants to live in peace and start SERIOUS negotiation then stop going around the table.

jed nightingale
10 February 2008 at 04:22

The Hammas leadership and Palestinian population in Gaza will not get anywhere with their present policies of firing rockets at Israel. The Palestinian aspirations for self-determination are being sacrificied by a fanatical ideology that wants to destroy Israel. When the Palestinain leadership finally comest to their senses and decides to accept Israel's existence and declares itself ready to live in Peace with Israel, great rewards will come to Gaza. Until then, nothing worthwhile will happen. Unit then Gazza will a failed state living on welfare. When Communist China, the most orthodox and ideological Communist country, decided to make peace with the US, great economic rewards were open to her. The Palestinians should take a lesson from China.

Jed Nightingale

NYC