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When Marx met Mill

  • Posted by Martin Bright
  • 24 July 2008

People just don't want to be told. Personal political responsibility, like virtue, is notoriously difficult to teach

May I suggest some summer reading? Consider it as a little extra homework, or an intellectual workout for the holiday season. The book is Democracy: Crisis and Renewal by Paul Ginsborg, professor of contemporary European history at the University of Florence. Ginsborg is a public intellectual of international renown, but you probably won't have heard of him because he writes mainly for the Italian press. The book is only 124 pages long, if you don't count the notes and bibliography. It is written in a perfectly accessible, non-academic style. It would take you an afternoon by the pool to get through it and, as a result, you would be vastly better informed about the state of global democracy and well placed to engage with the political process when you return from your holiday.

How do you feel about that? Patronised? Even more turned off politics than you were before you started this article? Deeply determined to read the latest Robert Harris after all? Your perfectly understandable reaction proves one of the main points of Ginsborg's book: it really is very difficult to inform people about the importance of participating in the democratic process. Because people just don't want to be told. Personal political responsibility, like virtue, is notoriously difficult to teach.

Ginsborg argues that since the fall of the Berlin Wall, liberal democracy has entered into a period of crisis not of quantity (something like 120 of the 192 nation states of the United Nations can now be described as democracies), but of quality. As he writes: "While formal, electoral democracy expanded with great rapidity all over the world, disaffection grew in democracy's traditional heartlands. This is expressed in a consistent decline in voter turnout and membership of political parties and a loss of faith in democratic institutions and the political class."

This decline has also seeped into the new democracies of Europe, however. In the 2004 European parliamentary elections, turnout in the UK was under 40 per cent. But it was 38.5 per cent in Hungary, 28.3 per cent in the Czech Republic, 20.9 per cent in Poland and just 17 per cent in Slovakia. People may not have liked communism, but they do not seem greatly enthused by democracy, at least not at the level of the European Parliament.

Ginsborg's delightfully bonkers book begins with a meeting in London in March 1873 between two great political minds of the age, Karl Marx and John Stuart Mill. Over a generous dinner followed by port at Mill's home in Albert Mansions, Victoria Street, the two men discuss their competing visions of democracy. Marx argues for a "participatory" model based on the Paris Commune of 1871, in which the workers seize direct control in a process of radical decentralisation (otherwise known as proletarian revolution). Mill, on the other hand, argues for the "representative" model, in which an elected elite rules over the less-informed, poorly educated and hopelessly prejudiced majority. The party broke up just before midnight, and the two great men agreed to differ, although Marx conceded that in some countries, perhaps even Britain, progress towards true democracy might be possible without violence.

Did it really happen like that? You will have to read the book for yourself to find out. Mill's belief in "the admission of all to a share in the sovereign power of the state" remains something on which all democrats would probably agree. By the late 19th century, the Marxist tradition and the liberal tradition diverged, with the latter ultimately triumphing in the revolutions of 1989. Ginsborg believes this discussion remains central to contemporary political debate: democracy should be essentially representative, or could people become more engaged with a country's political institutions if there were more direct involvement on the participatory model.

Like many on the left, Ginsborg is excited by the participatory politics of Porto Alegre, a city of four million in southern Brazil. In a system set up by the Workers' Party, the people of Porto Alegre take part in a series of meetings throughout the year to decide on priorities for the forthcoming budget. Delegates from local assemblies are then elected to a central budget council, where they thrash out a policy programme to be adopted by the mayor at the end of the year. In 2004, the Workers' Party was defeated in local elections, but such was the consensus around the participatory budget that the incoming coalition agreed to keep it.

Could such a model be adopted in Britain as a way of breathing life into local politics? Well, it has been tried, in the leafy outer London borough of Harrow, of all places. In spring 2005, in collaboration with Helena Kennedy's Power inquiry into political participation, the Harrow Open Budget Process brought together 300 residents to discuss priorities for the 2006/2007 budget and elect a panel to monitor how local politicians responded.

Ginsborg's book ends with an imagined conversation today between Marx and Mill about the merits of the Harrow experiment. Curious to know what had become of it, I called Harrow Council's press office. It has yet to get back to me. A report I found online showed that 94 per cent of those who took part thought it was a "good" or "very good" experience, and 74 per cent suggested it should be repeated. So what did happen? The Conservatives seized control of Harrow and the idea was scrapped. One thing you can rely on in Britain is that the dead hand of local politics will always throttle anything approaching genuine participation.

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18 comments from readers

knave
24 July 2008 at 12:38

Sounds like an interesting read. Also is there a link to the porto alegro initiative.

KIA
24 July 2008 at 15:12

The last sentence does seem to resonate with my experience. But let us not forget how local politicians and officials have found more subtle and Machiavellian ways of throttling participation.

Lesson one; diffuse responsibility and accountability through a variety of national, regional and local agencies until residents do not understand who to 'participate' with or to campaign against.

Lesson two; if anyone does kick up a fuss, ensure that all agencies unite and bear down on the offending residents. Shout them down.

Lesson three; if the public doesn't give you the decision you want, consult and consult and consult again, until you get the desired outcome. Play safe by contracting consultants to 'research' the issue, giving you the 'impartial' evidence you need.

Lesson four; if in doubt form a quango to diffuse power further and insert the words 'engage', 'strategic', 'infrastructure' and 'hub' into its mission statement.

With a heavy heart, i regret to inform you the list of lessons goes on and on.

Michael Macpherson
24 July 2008 at 22:33

In the late 19th century England failed to mesh with the international movement for stronger democracy whereas in the USA the citizens' initiative, binding referendum, and recall were introduced (over several decades) in about half of the USA states. In the same epoch the democracy movement on Switzerland strengthened and refined the combination of direct and indirect ("representative") democracy. In the early 20th century in England there were proposals to hold referenda on major policy issues but this did not come about. Then perhaps because we had The Great War, the economic depression and World War II, a serious public debate aimed to optimise our democracy failed to materialise. Perhaps the proponents of "representative rule" were too well entrenched. (Historical insights welcomed.)

Recently written, adopted state constitutions across the world contain elements of direct, citizens' democracy, from Taiwan to the baltic states, eastern Europe to Australasia.

Even "centralised" France has just (July 2008) adopted an instrument of citizen-triggered law proposal for state governance.

Now unsurprisingly we in the UK have an "elective dictatorship", "democracy deficit", and a crisis of trust in formal politics, acknowledged (1) even by a government which, like a King Canute facing the incoming tide of democracy, hangs on desperately to a failed, near absolutist system of representative rule, "political" parties with invisible membership, falling election turnout and an alienated, non-voting generation of youth which will probably never take part in political life.

I&R ~ GB proposes that we begin to use the citizens' initiative (e.g. law-proposal) and binding referendum at all levels of government, see (2) and http://www.iniref.org/

Ideas recently put forward (under duress) by the Labour government, such as the citizens' jury or various petitions, can do little to improve democracy. At best they can be seen as pedagogic instruments, at worst as frustrating distractions from real considerations of constitutional-political power and governance.

1. REPLY: A national framework for greater citizen engagement: A discussion paper – published July 2008

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wms/?id=2008-07-09a.77WS.3#c18867

2. PROPOSAL FOR THE INTRODUCTION OF NEW DEMOCRATIC PROCEDURES IN GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND

http://www.iniref.org/steps.html

gnuneo
25 July 2008 at 02:28

"Personal political responsibility, like virtue, is notoriously difficult to teach".

actually, it is not. It is the natural birthright of virtually everyone (possibly everyone) to want to be responsible for themselves - there is not a child in the world (who has not been abused) who does not wish to take on greater responsibilities, to feel more 'adult' and in charge of their own lives.

what is absolutely worth bearing in mind, is the the culture of the UK (and virtually all societies, excluding kibbutz and a few other local-community-based societies) abuses the child legally, systematically denying them any participation in decision making at home, or at school, or in after-school activities.

As any psychologist will tell you, such "institutionalisation", such a denial of their basic human right to take part in the creation of their environment in a meaningful sense, has severe long-term consequences for the individual, nearly always resulting in less self-confidence, and for many when given power later, a desire to harm the System by rebelling, even though it may hurt their own interests.

kibbutz children have no fear about taking part in adult discussions, nor do the students at schools like Summerhill in the UK, or the similar schools across the world.

http://www.educationfutures.org/Respect.htm

change the early socialisation practices, and you can change the self-confidence and ability of our young citizens to behave responsibly in society, and social debate.

as for marx v mill - in general, the many are not enormously interested in the nitty-gritty of political detail - just as many are not interested in the nitty-gritty of player transfers, or the nitty-gritty of permaculture v monoculture, or the nitty-gritty of how the internet works - but it doesn't mean they don't have ANY interest, or that they should be excluded from learning about it and joining in if they decide to.

even direct democracies like kibbutz still have their specialists, whose voices hold more weight when the topics are raised, but they cannot override the will of the rest of the kibbutz.

therefore there is no reason to divide the two choices like this - there MUST be the long-term goal of aiming for direct democracy, as this is simply far and away the best, most efficient and productive system, with the rapidest evolutionary impetus. Yet at the same time it is ridiculous to imagine that EVERY decision has to be examined and debated by the entire community - people do not need to discuss what brand of toilet roll to be used at city hall (unless they are directly concerned with such matters), however it is likely every citizen will be interested if there is a proposal to build a new nuclear power station next to them.

there is in fact no dilemma here, it should be a blend of the two, changing and adapting as social conditions, technology and the citizenry themselves change and adapt.

the problems with local Govt mentioned above, are both a symptom, and a cause, of a lack of belief by local residents they can actually have any democratic say either nationally, or locally.

i can't see any mainstream party, professional politicians, or indeed the civil service, honestly wanting that to change. There are profound anti-democratic forces still buried within our culture, and unfortunately they have grown stronger in recent years. We need to change that at source, introduce democracy if not in the home, then at school, introduce proportional representation across the board, and ***stop making political dissent illegal***.

after 30 years of uninterrupted Thatcherite High Modernist Feudalism, its just amazing anyone even bothers to vote at all!

knave
25 July 2008 at 06:41

3 excellent posts and interesting ariticle.

Stacks of ideas to ponder on.

See Martin, keeping away from your obsession and the ideas flow.

Although you haven't posted a thread on Islam or Isreal for at least 2 threads and your mates at Policy exchange and Cohen will expect a left, Brown and muslim bashing thread.

I hope not.

knave
25 July 2008 at 11:03

Mill, on the other hand, argues for the "representative" model, in which an elected elite rules over the less-informed, poorly educated and hopelessly prejudiced majority.

Would it not suit the elected elite to keep us masses less informed, poorly educated and hopelessly prejudiced.

It explains why the political elite despises the blogosphere.

knave
25 July 2008 at 15:29

Perhaps Mill was right and as shaw commented

Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for appointment by the corrupt few.

Michael Macpherson
25 July 2008 at 15:46

Knave wrote:

Mill, on the other hand, argues for the "representative" model, in which an elected elite rules over the less-informed, poorly educated and hopelessly prejudiced majority.

I&Rgb: Because we have been deprived for too long, in UK a successful introduction of direct democracy would no doubt need some rapid learning. The people are up to that. Positive feed-back is to be expected. Common sense suggests that taking part in democratic procedures will help to improve knowledge and some social skills and IIRC there is research which supports this.

At I&Rgb we suggest introducing *optional* procedures first, such as the citizens' initiative (e.g. law proposal), and the "facultative" (veto) referendum. This would avoid the overload and low turnout seen if there are "too many" obligatory ballots.

knave
25 July 2008 at 15:49

You sound like one of the good guys, Michael.

I am with you all the way

BegbiesEvilTwin
28 July 2008 at 23:08

Nice article. Comments equally good too.

taghioff.info
29 July 2008 at 09:37

I agree, and like Ginsborg, though have only read his book about the politics of everyday practices.

But the issue of how the people interface with the state, and particularly of participation in local governance is crucial: And yes indeed, people mostly learn by doing, so having ways of people "doing democracy" is one of the keys to keeping it alive.

And the Porte Alegre experience is a key component of the World Social Forum's agenda about democritisation, the other component being at the other end, that of direct representation at the global scale.

Knave: Wikipedia has a good intro on Porte Alegre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Participatory_budgeting

as well as on Global Democratization:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_democracy

knave
29 July 2008 at 11:00

Thank you tag

nice to see you back

Nilsey105
01 August 2008 at 21:00

There are other Participatory Projects some can be found here; http://www.participatorybudgeting.org.uk/case-studies

knave
02 August 2008 at 09:22

thank you

nilsey

Michael Macpherson
03 August 2008 at 16:14

Partial "participatory" budgets are put in a different light by Stephen Kingston, in Red Pepper 2007/2008 http://www.redpepper.org.uk/article549.html

He begins:

Power to which people?

The government is promising ’devolution right to the doorstep’ as a means of reinvigorating local democracy. A pilot participatory budget making project, whereby people can ’have a direct say’ in how their taxes are spent, has been running in Salford. Stephen Kingston questions its democratic credentials."

Michael

Roger Hampson
04 August 2008 at 22:17

Martin

You are behind the times. This summer, we at the London Borough of Redbridge have conducted a mass collaboration to inform decisions about capital spending. Over 5,000 people have taken part. It closed a few days ago, but the online tools are still up on the site. Go to www.redbridge.gov.uk and see for yourself.

Roger

Chief Executive

Martin Bright
06 August 2008 at 12:17

Thanks Roger. About to mention this on a separate post.

Btw knave, has it ever crossed your mind that I might be right about participatory democracy *and* radical Islam?

old_bloke
09 August 2008 at 10:30

Gnuneo makers a pertinent comment about how the cultural schema works from ground up. Offering hope by pointing to smaller political experiments that suffer less from entrenched systems of autocracy, whether in Redbridge or Kibbutz, has its appeal but on a large estate like the British Empire the hidden structures of political control extend into corporate, industrial and military board rooms that are global. The idea of one world government was always been possible but once the Fabians had duped the public imagination into believing it had a truly 'socialist' and therefore legit mandate for pursuing a more Machiavellian version of the Stuart Mill variety of democracy, over a century later we have the wretched EEC, a hornet's nest of industrialists and financiers, using its military wing NATO to protect 'democracy'.

You've only got to read some of the stuff written by Chomsky and Gary Webb, Christina Borjesson, John Pilger, Mark Curtis, Chossudovsky and Engdahl to get a glimpse of a much bigger picture of how politics works in the modern industrial world - which has its roots in the property and mercantile classes going back to the Reformation that are deeply feudal in their outlook.

For this reason I would listen to the likes of KIA who touches on the psychological warfare being waged between Government media channels and the public imagination which is strategic to the defence of the Establishment against the interference of Participatory Democracy.

Political change that is meaningful can only take place when the political structure itself is changed. To do that you have to de-establish the Establishment and undo centuries of cultural conditioning. Anything else is cosmetics. Sorry Michael, but I've said this before and I'll say it again, the structure must be dismantled first and a new one, with a new constitution, ratified as Public Statute, firmly elevated above the canon of every historical icon and tombstone that keeps it there.

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About the writer

Martin Bright

Martin Bright began his journalistic career writing in very simple English for a magazine aimed at French school children. This experience has informed his style ever since. He worked for the BBC World Service, and The Guardian before joining the Observer as Education Correspondent. He went on to become Home Affairs Editor before becoming the New Statesman's political editor in 2005.

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