The alarming spread of fascism in Putin’s Russia

Published 24 July 2007

Soviet-style propaganda and a personality cult for Putin are only two of the signs that Russia is edging towards fascism

One key concern arising from the recent spat with Russia is this awakening superpower is drifting into the foothills of fascism domestically. The simple defence Russians have offered in recent weeks is that Russians are by nature fiercely patriotic. I knew a Russian who, when the train stopped on the Russian border, picked up handfuls of Russian soil and started to sob.

The loss of their empire – the USSR - is keenly felt. Vladimir Putin, for example, described the end of the USSR as the greatest tragedy of the 20th century. It would have been more appropriate if he had given this title to the Ukrainian terror-famine of 1929-33 where the Russian occupier diverted all food from the collectivized peasants to the rest of the USSR. This terror-famine resulted in more deaths than all countries in the First World War. Russians refuse to apologise for the famine and still talk of Ukrainians in the same derogatory terms that some English used to use about the Welsh and Irish.

Putin is keen to maintain influence in the former Soviet satellite states and this is increasingly causing conflict. The key turning point was the Orange revolution in 2004 which discarded the Kremlin’s favoured candidate in Ukraine to bring in a pro-Western President with dreams of EU and NATO membership. The idea of losing “Little Russia”, the dearest of the CIS satellite states, to NATO shocked many Russians including Putin and ushered in more authoritarian tactics. The most worrying of these tactics was the politicised use of energy supplies. Ukraine had its gas cut-off shortly after its drift westward in 2004, and more recently Estonia has had oil supplies to its port disrupted by Russia during the statue crisis.

Putin is concerned that the loss of influence in the satellite states will threaten Russia's power along its borders by its old adversary NATO. He blamed the Orange Revolution in part on the unchecked rise of a democratic youth movement in Ukraine called PORA, who opposed the authoritarian government.

To prevent a similar group being established in Russia, Putin created his own youth movement “Nashi”. The official line was that this group were supposed to counter the rise of fascism, in the National Boshevik party. However, it soon became apparent that Nashi’s true function was as a personality cult for Putin whose job was intimidate, bully and harass his opponents.

In the recent Estonia crisis, thugs from Nashi terrorized the Estonian Embassy forcing the ambassador into hiding. In the protests one person was killed and 99 injured. Similarly, the UK ambassador in Moscow was intimidated by Nashi thugs merely for attending an opposition conference. The 120,000 Nashi members must show total devotion to the president. Their young leaders meet Putin himself in training camps and have an audience with his potential successor, First Deputy Prime Minister Sergie Ivanov. Nashi actions are well-organised, they wear distinct red uniforms, have their own buses, power supply and well-financed phone-in campaigns. The comparison with Hitler Youth is beginning to be made more and more often.

The most sinister aspect of Nashi is the revival of Soviet-style propaganda. In the official manifesto, Nashi recruits are subjected to Soviet-style prejudices of xenophobia and anti-Americanism that existed in the Cold War. The domain name for the Nashi website is www.nashi.su, opting for the “.su” of the non-existant Soviet Union, rather than “.ru” for Russia. The manifesto calls on Nashi members to stamp out any colour revolution as this would represent “a loss of sovereignty to external influences”. A flashing banner on the Estonia crisis declares: “It’s our history, it’s our war, it’s our soldier!” A poster at a recent rally criticised the number of adoptions of Russian children to the US. The members of Nashi, aged 17-25, who could essentially hold progressive views, are being indoctrinated with anti-European and anti-American sentiment.

The opposition groups in Russia are denied the right to hold protest and not allowed access to any of the state-controlled media. Nashi, however, are allowed to hold marches, which are covered favourably on state television. Financing for Nashi comes from Gazprom, the Kremlin-controlled gas giant. Similar to Hitler Youth, the group undergoes paramilitary training and have been implicated in the attacks on opposition groups like the banned National Bolshevik Party, led by Limonov and the Estonian ambassador. Their actions mirror more widespread of violent intimidation towards opposition groups, human rights activists and the free press.

Since Putin came to power, 15 journalists have been murdered by contract killers. Marina Litvinovich, the chief political adviser to opposition leader Garry Kasparov, was beaten up so badly she lost two front teeth. Lidia Yuspova, a human rights campaigner based in Chechnya, was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize, only to receive and anonymous call warning her she would not live to receive it. Groups of black-shirted skinheads have been responsible for assaults and murders directed at immigrants from the Caucasus.

Putin’s popularity ratings run at 80 per cent, showing that his grip on the state-media has effectively kept Russians in an information vacuum. He has exploited the fierce national pride of his people and reinforced prejudices by accusing the US of hegemony and speaking of the NATO presence along the borders.

Social instability and health problems run rampant throughout the country. A 20-year-old Russian has less than a 50 per cent chance of reaching the age 65 (compared to 80 per cent for an American). Russia has three million drug users, with as many as two million may be HIV-infected. Its prisons are rife with tuberculosis and hold 1.3m people many of them young homeless boys. By effectively integrating an immigrant population Russia could help to swell its workforce but current immigration stands at zero. Russia is more than just the Nashi movement, state-controlled media and murdered journalists, but Putin's legacy will be determined by how legitimately he can justify his people's patriotism by improving the quality of living.

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127 comments from readers

dorotea
24 July 2007 at 14:56

What a bunch of biased rubbish! For starters the famine in Ukraine was not the result of "food diversion to other regions of USSR" but of politically motivated "class struggle" cleansing engineered by bolsheviks. In Russia proper there was famine in Povolzhie at the same time and it was no lesser than in Ukraine. Not to mention that famine was enforced by ukranian members of communist party! What ethnic cleansing we are talking about if millions of ethnics ukrainians fled to Russia proper and resettled there as result of the famine? As for the rest of the article - it almost made me vomit so biased and cold-war-like it sounds. Get a grip on reality, author. The current spat with UK does not mean you have to spew out derogatory russophobic lies - 30% russians have access to the internet and can read your 'creative' ramblings.

arisch
24 July 2007 at 16:08

I too agree with dorotea. I am from USA and even I, not knowing a whole lot about Russian politics, could plainly see the bias. I just love this one:

"Putin’s popularity ratings run at 80 per cent, showing that his grip on the state-media has effectively kept Russians in an information vacuum."

And here in the USA we don't have an info vacuum? If it wasn't for the internet we would be worshiping Bush as a God. No, serious we would. I haven't watched any Russian TV, but I can say that American TV is nothing but pro-globalist propaganda.

While I do disagree with Russia trying to exert its dominance over places like Estonia, I do have a great degree of respect for all Russian nationalists. I only wish Americans had that same spirit.

Sasha
24 July 2007 at 16:22

I am Russian myself and maybe I will not agree with everything that Putin is doing, that is my business however, but what you wrote here makes you sound like an absolute russophobe.

If you're so concerned with the world sitiuation, why don't you write something about Western occupation of Iraq and slaughter of thousands of people there with no real reason or excuse?? Doesn't that concern you more than the rise of "fascism" in Russia?

Like the previous person has mentioned - we do have internet and a lot of Russians have a good enough English ability in order to read and learn about the things that are happenig around the world. Don't make us out to be some kind of zombied, brainless, patriotic, brainwashed bunch, we're not!

There's one more thing that bothers me; it's articles like these that somehow suggest that Russia should be more like the Western countries and follow in the footsteps of UK and US(and the like).

Regarding this: there is this song from Yuri Vizbor, it's about Moscow;

"Maybe there are prettier countries, maybe there's better life, I won't insist on my point of view. Each one to their own. "

Wrap that around your head and go write about something more substantial.

IrritatedofTonbridge
24 July 2007 at 16:25

Don't you love it when you get multiple comments by the same user pretending to be lots of different people. Oh and my name's Ivan.

arisch
24 July 2007 at 16:46

Don't you love it when people post useless troll comments to try and discredit valid opinions?

Sasha
25 July 2007 at 02:58

Surely you mean the comments of "IrritatedofTonbridge" and "arisch", right?

omash
25 July 2007 at 06:07

Only fascism I see is the one imposed bt so called western democracies.Invading Afghanistan and Iraq.Establishing military bases through out the world.Renagging on promises made with Russia about not encroaching in ex-soviet republics.Lies,lies and lies.Right now,freedom of speech is trampled more in US and UK than anywhere else in the world.

So called democratic world want to overthow,muzzle or assissinate or overthrow elected leadersin the world.They did it in Haiti,tried in Venzuela,working to do it in Iran,Gaza,Palestine and a lot of other places.

Fomenting disturbances in Chechnya,Darfur,somalia, you name it.I would rather have a fascism like Russia than so called democracy of the west.

Rosie O'Donnel,Colorado professor losing their jobs for the freedom of speech.wow.It is democracy.

Invading and occupying other countries in the name of democracy or terrorism,killing more than 700,000 people in Iraq for a few thousand terrorist is democracy?

Destroying whole crops with Agent Orange and killing millions of vietnamese is democracy.

You can keep that democracy to yourself.

Please donot pollute the rest of the world with it. Thank you.

Korf
25 July 2007 at 08:29

I just love it. The article accusing Russia of sliding towards fascism illustrated by a photo of National Bolsheviks doing a Nazi salute for the reporters. The uninformed reader is clearly supposed to associate the picture with "thugs from Nashi", not "opposition groups like the banned National Bolshevik Party, led by Limonov". All's fair in love, war and Russophobic propaganda?

CoNtRaBaNdO
25 July 2007 at 11:01

This article is BIASED, I have not seen such a one sided article in quite a long time.

The article for some reason ignored the fact that NATO expansion eastward with all the equipment targeted at Russia and despite NATO agreements during the last decade that expansion would not continue since the break up of the USSR.

Nashi is for real an anti facist movement. Why do I say that? First of all the core "idea" of Nashi is anti fascism. Nashi organizes MULTI CULTURAL activities where a large number of nationalities participate for example. I have seen a video of a Nashi event against racism or xenophobia in Tula, a Russian town.

What more should I say? Nashi do not have any thugs, there was an outcry in Russia after the Estonian government shamefuly re buried the fallen WW2 soldiers who fought the Nazis in the Bronze Soldier Monument incident.

Carolus
25 July 2007 at 11:11

Aye right…. Let’s compare our democratic performance…

USA and UK with their ‘Oil War Real-Politik’ do resent Russian resources, snatched during the alcoholic Yeltsin years, being reclaimed for the overall benefit of the long-suffering Russian people. And ringing European Russia with missiles from Poland and the Czech Republic only deepens the widening schism.

Of course it is not in Washington’s interest to have Russia and Europe integrate further; tensions are being manufactured.

In UK we are under the most CCTV camera surveillance in the world (while drunken yobs roam our city centres at night) while we have the oncoming Thought Police of Detention without charge …

We invade and blast the country of Iraq, assured by our 45 minute PM [Proxy Monarch] that there are Weapons of Mass Destruction and there are none. We are still there shooting for 'democracy and our values'.

We invade Afghanistan to remove terrorists who could harm us while the Opium crop is growing by 800% in front of our troops who drive by to be shot at… so our aircraft can bomb the villages to win hearts and minds…

Doctor Kelly slashes his wrists and leaves no blood and Lord Hutton proclaims suicide.

And the latest London grotesque affair is not about Cash-for-Honours; this is about Cash-for-Power. We have some six hundred elected MPs and some 600 plus non-elected legislators in an upper house full of nabobs who bribe their way into the London-Power-Club. And after 18 months of investigation a legal bureaucrat proclaims not enough evidence for charges.

A child can see the corruption oozing out of Westminster. So our brave writer warns us of rising Fascism in Russia…

IrritatedofTonbridge
25 July 2007 at 11:16

There are certain subjects that always provoke cries of 'bias'. Say anything on Israel/Palestine and if it's remotely critical one group or another will accuse you of being in the pockets of the other side. Same with Northern Ireland, same here. Most articles are partial and most comments are too. The lobby group/organisation posting here is not going to be happy unless their view and their view alone is projected. Democracy is such a bore, isn't it?

Carolus
25 July 2007 at 11:25

Mr Irritated...

I am my own man and not subject to any organisation; I don't like fascism wherever it comes from including UK or Russia. I don't think I mentioned Israel or Palestine. I note you don't address any points made, you just try to silence...

IrritatedofTonbridge
25 July 2007 at 12:05

I think, Carolus, you should look up the word fascism in a dictionary. You shouldn't bandy around terms you simply don't understand. You didn't mention Palestine or Israel - I was giving an analogy for the way the moment any dissent is voiced screams of bias/prejudice/partiality ring out. The intention being of course to stop the expression of any opposing view. And far from trying to silence anyone, I'm bored with the way that keeps happening. As to your comments, no you're right I didn't respond to them because I thought them hysterical and childish in this context. To criticise Putin, the butcher of Grozny, the assassin of free speech is legitimate. The rotten US-led foreign policy that the UK so shamefully signed up to in Iraq and elsewhere, cash for honours and the rest - none of this precludes articles attacking Putin's record.

Carolus
25 July 2007 at 12:37

Dear Irritated..

Thank you for your increasing balance of view. Because I attempted my own balance to a completely unbalanced 'holier than thou' article does not negate my comments. As to definition of fascism - I prefer Mussolini's definition. He said, "Fascism is the wrong word. It is really Corporatism - a combination of Nationalism and Capitalism."

Glad to see your against agression anywhere.

IrritatedofTonbridge
25 July 2007 at 13:29

So your preferred definition of Fascism is in fact a definition of Corporatism. Yes I think I might have spotted the source of that confusion. Mind you, you probably just looked it up so it didn't feed into anything you had written. To be frank your contribution has not been balancing. You didn't address the points that the author made - you merely went off on a 'oh and Britain's got such a clean nose it thinks its got a right to criticise' rant which is just such an unhelpful reaction. You disagree with Gavin Knight? Fine, then take his article apart forensically. As for me 'being against aggression' anywhere - what a silly remark. Reading your rot, I'm increasingly in favour.

Dmitriy
25 July 2007 at 13:51

He was aware that he wrote foolishness or faith in writte. In dostupok to alternative sources of information in Russia is good. Public television in my small town broadcasts and BBC and DW.

Articles from the Western press regularly transferred to two sayth www.inopressa.ru and www.inosmi.ru

So we are watching and remember.

Dmitry

Russia, Korolev.

Capitollinks
25 July 2007 at 14:13

Thinking that Putin's popularity is the by-product of media control is the intellectual equavalent of a placebo. As long as Western "experts" on Russia fool themselves like this, we will continue to suffer from fatally flawed foreign pollices.

Alex_9999
25 July 2007 at 14:35

Articles like this, obviously, increases popularity of Vladimir Putin. So, Putin's popularity is a product of western media too.

Aleksey, Russia

Kommunist
25 July 2007 at 14:37

I grew up in the USSR. Soviet propaganda on the news and in films aggravated. Now these articles are similar feelings. I hope Western readers react as Soviet citizens 30 years ago.

Carolus
25 July 2007 at 14:39

Dear Irritated,

I do not need to confine myself to an analytical reduction of a distorted piece of propaganda and stay in the author's or your chosen box. Other commentators have dealt with his internal errors quite well. My comment was to balance the author's obvious unbalanced and pontificating attempt to discredit a country.

I did not need to look up any definition of Facism but I must say you seem intent to demean... and I am not sure what you believe other than to silence comments. I think your aggression is showing.. sorry to upset you. But I guess if you are 'Irritable' it is easy... Bye

IrritatedofTonbridge
25 July 2007 at 14:53

You can't balance something by being irrelevant, can't you see that? Please Carolus, don't try to be clever. It doesn't suit you!

chiragu
25 July 2007 at 14:55

This shameful russophobic propaganda is lie at 100% and author can not be excused with his ignorance of subject. Abundance of articles like this in western press is very bad sign for peace in the world (let's remember 1999 and 2003). But i glad to see how many well-informed non-russian readers posts their replies on this article. It it seems that we are not lose the possibility to understand each other.

Andrey

Voronezh, Russia

Dmitriy
25 July 2007 at 14:57

"The domain name for the Nashi website is www.nashi.su, opting for the “.su” of the non-existant Soviet Union, rather than “.ru” for Russia. "

ha-ha!

The author may think his head that address www.nashi.ru already busy? And still. My provider is also addressed in the zone "su". But with the KGB, he has not the slightest connection. :)

sergks
25 July 2007 at 15:26

The author is writing in the style of bolshevik's Pravda. Is he a communist? Oh... no, dear, he is a true democrat.

Admin
25 July 2007 at 15:32

From letters to the editor:

"Many thanks to Mr. Knight for writing this brave article, and to the New Statesman for publishing it. Special kudos for the mention of the terror-famine in Ukraine, whose 75th anniversary is being marked this year and next. Most of the comments are just typical unregenerate, uncultured Sovok garbage."

Ksenia

an-tin
25 July 2007 at 15:43

I'm Russian ( Ukrainian by origin, half of my family lives there now ).

I'm really sorry, but I have to inform the author that he is .. well I should put it "polit-correct" way ... he is not a smart man :)

Real stupid propaganda is his article here. The reality in Russia is something very different from author's fantasies.

Alex_9999
25 July 2007 at 16:12

2 NS Admin

Letter about nothing. No information provided. I just undestand somebody called my comment 'reactionary garbage'

Hands off Baikal!

Aleksey,

Russia

Nihilo
25 July 2007 at 17:18

On the http://inosmi.ru i can everyday read translaitions from the most popular UK and USA newspapers, and i have to say that this is just terrible. Lie, lie and lie again. Thanks to all non-Russian ppl who have unbiassed opinion about this crap.

Sorry for my English.

hanz
25 July 2007 at 17:51

finally someone is saying out the truth. the things happening in russia are not normal - murdering of the journalists, brainwashing in nazi-camp, double standards, threatening other countries with rockets, and how all companies are controlled by putin.

FDS
25 July 2007 at 18:12

Gavin Knight wrote:

"In the recent Estonia crisis, thugs from Nashi terrorized the Estonian Embassy forcing the ambassador into hiding. In the protests one person was killed and 99 injured."

Dr. Goebbels would have been proud

btw look at this photo and tell me that nashi is a fascist organization http://img.rian.ru/images/5706/91/57069137.jpg

hanz
25 July 2007 at 18:36

To FDS:

so what did they do? they terrorized our ambassador, she couldn't even leave the house without police (or what ever this is called in russia).

And I looked at this picture and I still think nashi = nazis, so what? nazis also used everything they could for propaganda.

DenisG
25 July 2007 at 18:57

1. Domain nashi.ru was delegated in 2001 ( https://www.nic.ru/whois/?domain=nashi.ru ) before NASHI was founded. Nashi.su was delegated in 2005

2. "the group undergoes paramilitary training "

These trainings do not differ from trainings of scouts.

So are scouts the fascist organization?

3. "The manifesto calls on Nashi members to stamp out any colour revolution as this would represent “a loss of sovereignty to external influences”."

There are no such words in the manifesto. Is't a lie.

4. "In the protests one person was killed and 99 injured."

This protests occured in Estonian capital, and i haven't information, that "nashi" accepted in it participation.

5. "The most sinister aspect of Nashi is the revival of Soviet-style propaganda."

I think, this article is "Soviet-style propaganda"...

I am not member of "nashi", and i don't like them, but such articles, full of lie and fact manipulations, shows to me the world, in which we live...

(sorry for my bad english)

FDS
25 July 2007 at 19:17

To hanz

do you even know who nazis were?

Alexander
25 July 2007 at 20:17

Dead Mr.Knigt,

I have read a translation of your article on the Russian INOSMI site. Even this fact says that the Russians are not in information vacuum at all. (There are 27 mln Internet users in Russia)

I am also sorry to say that 99% of your article is a lies.

Regards, Alexander/Moscow/Russia.

Alexander
25 July 2007 at 20:24

A small addition if possible. The site nashi.ru was already occupied when the mentioned organisation appeared. That's the simple reason why they chose the domen .su.

:-)

Alexander/Moscow/Russia

DontMatter
25 July 2007 at 20:46

""In the recent Estonia crisis, thugs from Nashi terrorized the Estonian Embassy forcing the ambassador into hiding. In the protests one person was killed and 99 injured. ""

One PROTESTER was killed and 99 PROTESTERS were injured in DEMOCRATIC eSStonia, you moron! It has nothing to do with eSStonian ambasador, you liar!!!

DontMatter
25 July 2007 at 20:49

"Vladimir Putin, for example, described the end of the USSR as the greatest tragedy of the 20th century"

Why the hell did you skip word "GEOPOLITICAL"? That changes the whole meaning, doe it?!?!?!?

hanz
25 July 2007 at 21:34

to FDS:

yes, I know who nazis were, so? (I also know who communists were, and they were no better).

to Alexander:

the fact that you think that this article is 99% BS proves that you have been cut out from the rest of the world. All things in this article have actually happened.

to DontMatter:

what is the reason for stressing democratic before Estonia? Just so you would know, Estonia is one of the most democratic and liberal countries in the World (something that cannot be said about russia):

http://www.stateofworldliberty.org/report/rankings.html

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=19388

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cf...

http://www.worldaudit.org/democracy.htm

(you will find russia from the bottom of these rating tables)

And geopolitical doesn't change a thing. She thinks that USSR should have never fallen and one word doesn't change a thing.

UncleRus
25 July 2007 at 21:48

2hanz:

Are you live in Russia or ex-USSR? :)

yet another brainwashed man.

hanz
25 July 2007 at 22:03

to UncleRus:

I live in Estonia and I was born few years before the collapse of USSR, so theoretically I have also lived in the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

But I don't see how I am brainwashed? It is you who thinks that USSR is the best thing ever and that putin is god, not me. I hate both. Or maybe all these organizations that say that russia is far from democracy are biased and paid off by Estonia?

And BTW I have always liked Uncle Sam better... actually I have always hated uncle russia.

Tartar
25 July 2007 at 23:54

I'm sorry to say that but author is an idiot. We can see that for example

> but current immigration stands at zero

RUSSIA IS AT THE SECOND PLACE IN THE WORLD, AFTER USA BY THE NUMBER OF IMMIGRANTS

blahbonator
26 July 2007 at 00:57

I've read quite a number of "analytical" Russia articles in the western media, but a gem like this surfaces only once in a blue moon. Now, even though I live in Russia and apparently am a "fascist" for supporting our president, I'm not going to accuse ALL western journalists writing on the topic of current events in Russia as being biased, russophobic and completely ignorant of actual events and facts - but this Gavin fellow here surely gets top marks in all those categories.

I won't list any of the actual mistakes (whether intentional or not) that he's made in writing this article nor all the historical lies he had spouted, the other posters before me have done a fine job retorting them. I will however note, that in my provincial city of Omsk we have access to foreign tv (translated and not) channels, participate in different political movements and have internet cafes on every corner for those few still without personal computers. Now this is not to say that the "putin controlled" media is that unwatchable! In addition to rubbish like Russian version of "the real world" and sometimes overly Putin-centered central news there is a large number of great analytical shows with active debate tackling various social, economic, cultural, racial and other problems you probably would never see even in the western media outside of PBS.

So all in all, the more propaganda articles like this we, modern and young Russians, read, the more duplicity and hypocrisy we see between your words and your actions - the more disillusioned in the West we become. You may or may not care, but please don't blame this on the "information blockade" or "fascism revival", it's quite the opposite and is plain laughable to anyone actually living here.

UncleRus
26 July 2007 at 04:17

2hanz :

>I live in Estonia and I was born few years before the collapse of USSR, so theoretically I have also lived in the greatest tragedy of the 20th century.

Yeap. Now I understand :) eSStonia :) hanz, are you nazi?

Askanor
26 July 2007 at 04:54

Our newspaper is greatful more, more objective!.. And less propagandistic.

I'm sorry for bad english.

Good luck, Englishmans!:)

Askanor.

Russia,

Siberia,

WarBear-City.

Askanor
26 July 2007 at 04:55

Our newspaper is greatful more, more objective!.. And less propagandistic.

I'm sorry for bad english.

Good luck, Englishmans!:)

Askanor.

Russia, Siberia, WarBear-City.

Askanor
26 July 2007 at 04:55

Oops!.. sorry... :(

Tartar
26 July 2007 at 05:03

2Askanor

I've almost belived that u are from Russia. "WarBear-City" - really cool! Gavin will believe u!

koHb_B_naJIbTo
26 July 2007 at 06:41

Dear hanz!

All your links you can put in your nazi ass. The bronze night had shown all eSStonian "liberty" and "democracy". Google "Terminal D Estonia", our rapid baltic neighbour.

"you will find russia from the bottom of these rating tables"

Russia you should write with a capital R. And all those rankings were made by the same men as this article's authors.

Nihil
26 July 2007 at 06:48

This article is for low educated people with no knowledge in history. It's intellectual level is much lower even than any propaganda article in Soviet times. Absolute thrash.

an-tin
26 July 2007 at 07:45

Ooops....

Yesterday I posted here a message with the link to russian translation of this article and russian forum with corresponding discussion but now I see it was deleted!

And this people talk about the freedom of speech!

I'm shocked!

Dear moderator, WHY? Why you deleted the link to russian forum , where all the readers say that this article is a solid peace of low-cost propaganda?

Vivisector
26 July 2007 at 09:18

HA-HA-HA! I am Russian. The article did not irritate me, it made me laugh very much! The header in particular: "Soviet-style propaganda...". The author has no idea what the propaganda was because he did...a perfect sample of Soviet-style propaganda! No analysis, no arguments, all of the cliches had been taken from other similar articles (that show that the author is either a robot or absolutely improfessional journalist). And tonnes of lie of course.

All that gave me an idea to write and publish a "DIY Dummy Russophobic Blotter Manual". It would be a comprehensive numbered list of all "Russian sins". Just like these:

1. Putin is tyrant.

2. Russia has no democracy

3. Russia has no free media

15. Russia uses its oil&gas for aggressive expansion

...

28. All Russians are facists (var: communists, oligarchs, mafioso, alcoholics, KGB agents)

...

195. Putin has killed Litvinenko (var: Politkovskaya, all chechens, Elvis, JFK)

etc.etc.

All a novice user of the manual has to do is dice and choose the numbers from the list. Voila!

Admin
26 July 2007 at 09:34

From the New Statesman moderator:

In regards to an earlier post, reproducing (or translating) articles from www.newstatesman.com without our permission is a breach of copyright.

blahbonator
26 July 2007 at 09:34

wow Vivisector, what a great Idea. I'm going to make a ton of articles and submit them to various British newspapers now... easy $$, as they seem to eat up anything that degrades russia :)

Kommunist
26 July 2007 at 10:26

Putin brother died because of the fascist siege of Leningrad. Hardly fascism nice to him now.

Alexander
26 July 2007 at 11:10

Mr. Hanz,

I often travel to Estonia and communicate with local Russians. That's where people are really feel themselves in police-state. Do you know that your cecurity service KAPO unofficially checks what local guides says during their excursions in the Old City? That people are afraid of your so-called "Language inspection"? That dosens of schoolchildren are still in jail after the April events? That you have 25% of population who in fact are 2-nd rank people because they are of a different nationality and can't even voteand stand for their rights? Oh, I think you know it very well but think it's just OK.

Please don't tell me that I'am cut from the rest of the world. I have travelled maybe 20 Western countries and half Russia. The fact that I can read any media in English and wright here absolutely disapprove your state.

Hi to your belowed AnSSip.

Alexander/Moscow/Russia

hanz
26 July 2007 at 13:14

to Alexander:

Are you sure you have been in Estonia? Because you sure don't know a lot about Estonia.

Sorry, but it is not possible to run "police-state" if you do not have enough policeman to do that. Police wages are so low (because of USSR) in Estonia that there is actually shortage of policemen and I don't see how they could run country in such situation.

KAPO only checks when they have reason to suspect that someone is planning something against Estonia, tourists guides generally don't fall under the list of "most wanted".

The only people who are "afraid" of language inspection are the ones that live and work in Estonia, but do not speak Estonian. You probably don't know it, but Estonian is the only official language in Estonian. You may speak russian, but if you work in public sector then you have to speak Estonian. That is totally normal , because why should I learn russian when I live in Estonia?

Yes, some criminals are still in jail and so what? Criminals belong to jail, don't you agree? They broke in to shops, kiosks, threw rocks and bottles at police and pretty much stole and destroyed everything that got in their way and now you thing they shouldn't be left free because they are russian? Sorry, but no can do.

Yes, we have 25% of russians, but in fact many of them have citizenship and can vote. No one is stopping the other ones from learning our language and getting citizenship, but they do not want to, so it is their own fault.

And I still think you are cut from the rest of the world, because you know nothing about April events, you only think you know, but because russian media was full of lies, then you probably believe that your fellow russians were doing peaceful protest and the statue was cut into pieces, but you don't know what actually happened. And you probably don't even know that Ansip is ex-communist, so he should be your ex-friend.

James
26 July 2007 at 14:03

Russia has problems, we have problems, all other us have problems. The article might be biased. All articles are. The only article that wouldn't be biased was the one that mentioned every single atrocity, danger, disaster etc in the whole of human history. And I havn't got time to read that. Give the author a break. Everthing written was to all intent and purposes accurate, just there was a lot of other accuracies missing is all.

Sakhalin
26 July 2007 at 16:18

I've never seen such an impudent falsehood! Author is a biased man, but I think he and his masters have a good memory and remember the Hebbels's words- "If anyone says a lie 1000 times it is become a truth in the minds . "

And..."More the lie ruder more it seems thruthfully ."

Gavin Knight
26 July 2007 at 16:32

Thanks for your comments. I would like to respond to a few points.

Some of you refute the idea that there is an “information vacuum” in Russia saying that some people have access to foreign television and the internet. The majority of the Russian population still rely on the domestic Russian-language media which has very few independent publications like Novaya Gazeta and Kommersant. Anna Politkovskaya was the senior reporter at Novaya Gazeta. Her colleagues have been intimidated and their offices raided by the authorities. Of the two large circulation papers Izvestiya was taken over by Gazprom in 2005 and many of the editorial staff sacked. Argumenty i Facty is owned by Russian bank Promsvyazbank.

For Russian TV the situation is worse with NTV broadcasting predominantly the state-sponsored line and RTR and Ostankino even more so. If editors deviate from the state ideology they are sacked, like Leonid Parfonov at NTV. Any programmes with real debate get axed like Savik Shuster’s “Free Speech” and Alexander Gerasimov’s “Personal Affairs”. Channel One is 51% state-owned and its programmes like “Vremya” can be seen to tow the Kremlin’s line.

For those responders who deny that fascist attacks are rising in Russia I would refer you to an incident that occurred only this week. A peaceful environmental protest group in Angarsk, Siberia, was attacked at 5am on 21st July by a neo-nazi skinhead group with knives and iron bars. 8 people were hospitalized and one, 21 year old Ilya Borodaenko died of his injuries. The environmentalists said in their statement that the police asked them not to talk to any journalists about the incident. Here is the video on Russian news.

http://www.vesti.ru/video.html?vid=105868

For those who deny journalists are being murdered in Russia, they could look at this database from the Glasnost Defense Foundation and the Center for Journalism in Extreme Situations of journalists and media workers in Russia who have died or gone missing since the early 1990s. Murders account for 152 deaths.

http://www.ifj.org/docs/JournalistsRussia.xls

Troper Citpeks
26 July 2007 at 16:38

James: "Everthing written was to all intent and purposes accurate"

did you actually read comments??? They nicely show that the article is based on a heap of crap and you are asking for "a break" for that idiot?

Korf
26 July 2007 at 16:49

Oh I see. If a newspaper belongs to Berezovsky or his cronies, it's free and independent. If it belongs to a Russian business, it's not. Thank you for putting this straight, Mr. Knight.

Alexander
26 July 2007 at 17:33

Dear Mr. Knight,

Thank you for your answers. It is definitely shows at least your personal bravery. But the way you operate with the facts is really confusing. There is no forest behind your trees.

One can easily collect enough facts about any country to blame it as fascist. Including UK. It is not difficult, really. How do you think those medician-terrorists think about your country? They of course had their own reasons to hate the UK. This fact of course shocked the English people, I guess including yourself.

The same shock an average Russian has when read the articles with "Russia=Fascism" topics. Usually it is written by people who never lived in Russia, never had familiar Russians, and doesn't know Russian history. The way you handle with facts just reminded me about such authors.

Let me say so in the end: Russia has nothing more in common with fascism than your own country. To prove it is enough to take the "fascism" description from i.e. Britannica, and read.

Sorry if some coments have harmed your personal dignity, it must not be so.

Alexander/Moscow/Russia

Anuta
26 July 2007 at 17:39

I think we should't try to explain this article normally. I'm personnaly see just only thing - booked article, usual politic every-day propaganda, even not talent . These paid in advance articles and other like this should not take seriously...

I'm sorry, author.

Anna Celesneva, Moscow

Alexander
26 July 2007 at 18:02

To. Hanz,

I am travelling to Esonia at least three time per year, as I have relatives there (so called pravopriemnye, if you are interested - a good apartheid term invented in democratic Estonia).

What can I only say - if everything was as glamourous as you wrote - than April events were never happened.

Maybe I don't know all details about how that happen (nobody knows), but know exactly WHY that happen.

Talk to local Russians if you don't think it scorn to do for you. You will hear many surprising things about the democracy in your country and April events also. And Russian media had nothing to do with it.

Anuta
26 July 2007 at 18:04

For you - to hide chechnia terrorist Zakaev in London, -collapse Iraq and etc, etc o, no doubt, gumanizm, standart of democratia! But any manifistation of any country just to save territiry intergrity interpret as fascizm. It's banal double standart! But what is behind this all? Clear - money, money,money... Berezovsky paying fantastik sum!

Troper Citpeks
26 July 2007 at 18:39

Gavin: "...Here is the video on Russian news.

http://www.vesti.ru/video.html?vid=105868 "

Gavin, are you really that dumb? You just ranted about "informational vacuum. (Remember: "Putin’s popularity ratings run at 80 per cent, showing that his grip on the state-media has effectively kept Russians in an information vacuum. ")

and then you use "russian propoganda" TV

("Gavin: "...Here is the video on Russian news.

http://www.vesti.ru/video.html?vid=105868 "") as a source of information to "prove" that "fascist attacks are rising in Russia"... How come bloody-KGB-controlled-media allowed this information to be broadcated? ;)

P.S. Soooooftly speaking, it is stupid to cite one accident to prove that "fascist attacks are rising in Russia." This "technique" might suit " authors of Cosmopolitan or Vouge...

Pablitos
26 July 2007 at 19:05

Dear Mr. Gavin Knight, it is of course great that you are concerned for Russia, but why bother now when selected assets (quite legally, even brazenly) from the Western oil companies to bribe officials received the donated assets, but somehow you and no western journalists and concerned about the lives of ordinary Russians during Boris Yeltsin, you were still people dying of hunger, infrastructure is destroyed, great drunkenness, Imagine, I was just a teenager and they all saw their eyes, I was born in a small Siberian town Sayansk (300 km from Angarsk incidentally), my family lived a normal life, we had all: flat, car make, household appliances, so most families lived in the Soviet Union, not rich, but it is provided, parents were not bureaucrats, and engineer (mather) and factory worker (father) after the collapse of the Soviet Union, my mom was forced to resign from his post as engineer, because wages have not been paid for a year, she went to work seller, the father has not received salaries for months, working mom seller receives a very low pay, but they were living money that inflation, as long as they do not spend immediately, then father issued wages ... cigarettes! ! ! Presenting cigarettes! What do you tell a hungry family, without a penny in his pocket when the yield paid in the form of cigarettes? ? ? You have to buy cigarettes and ketchup floor walk into their place of dinner! Just in the fertile time when Yeltsin led Russia paid workers Barter, who shovels wage issue, who rhinestones who batteries, and not selling it, because half the city was paid the same. In those years could calmly robbing and killing in the street the day itself, I saw this as a teenager on the street. And many ethnic conflicts since the collapse of the Soviet Union, rampant poverty drunkenness, pouring drugs, prostitution, rampant corruption, the elderly survivors of Stalin and Hitler COULD NOT Surviving TIMES Yeltsin! At that time, Yeltsin singing fanfare (by the way, in 1996, all the "independent" press in Russia chorus ploughshares what to vote for Yeltsin, pomglo had not even falsify the elections, west of the ball spit again), and 90% of the population (not only Russians) have been very poor (so when Yeltsin Pomer, and when all the major Western newspapers would have to mourn his death, ordinary Russians said : "Yeltsin is not dead, Yeltsin handed!) , and a handful of people fabulously rich! ! And these fabulously wealthy people owned Russia, and the media belonged to them and they said that the oligarchs would have the "independent" media in the Yeltsin era, and ordinary people were absolutely spit everyone, including the authorities, more particularly power, was not an independent press in Russia, Yes, anywhere in the world, it's not (NS newspaper also believe engaged edition because only saw sharp criticism even more unreasonable and distortion of the facts, rather than serious analyst, who sees the pros and cons and Russia, or at least reflect the different viewpoints of the vision of the situation in Russia, in this truly independent British newspaper Guardian, and is perhaps the only, because democracy is the existence of different opinions and views on the vision of a situation, right?) . So think about whether the Russians freedom of the press, especially after what profession a journalist in Russia is synonymous with the word prostitute (interesting you know why?) , But perhaps you still spit on the simple Russian people are more concerned with Litvinenko and Politkovskaya, other people refuse to die of hunger, Yet they died FREE PEOPLE ...

P.S. : excuse the terrible English.

Pavel, Krasnoyarsk (Syberia).

sergks
26 July 2007 at 19:33

To NS Admin:

Can you, please, explain why did you remove the post linking to the Russian forum where Russians discussing this article? How can they break the NS copyrights?

Do I need your personal approval to discuss the article here?

Egor
26 July 2007 at 20:53

A lot of mistakes, a lot of lies.

Few things are true but how presented!

As regards Golodomor - it seems that Gavin met a couple of real Ukrainian nationalists (those who call "heroes" all those Ukrainian guys who fought during WWII against the Red Army and massacred thousands Russians, Poles and of course Jews) and swallowed all their propaganda.

Not a bright mind then.

There is a number of books of serious historians telling about Golodomor in Ukraine, Russia (Povolzhie and South-Western Siberia), Kazakhstan, etc.

Millions of people died and this is the tragedy of all nations of the former Soviet Union.

It had nothing in common with "genocide" but rather with Stalin's desire to tighten control over agricultural areas - obviously, Ukraine had better climate than Russian North therefore the losses were higher.

But mind you, at the same time in Siberia there was a real war between the Russian "farmers" (kulaks) and the Commies in which the planes, guns and Red Army regiments were used and thousands were killed and executed.

Again, the archives are open, books are written - just read and learn.

And the last point - yep, dissolution of the USSR was a great tragedy. Not the greatest one since we had the WWII where 27 million Soviet people died, the WWI + Civil War and Stalin times (another several millions victims) - but I can easily forgive Putin for such exaggeration since that was the latest tragedy which is remembered by most of the Russians.

For those who think that this was not a tragedy I would remind about hundreds of thousands people who died in local wars, millions who died of starvation or lack of medicine, about the wave of crime, etc, etc - some things the westerners just cannot understand, like despair because of impossibility to find appropriate food for a baby at the beginning of 90-s.

Yes, we got freedom from Commies but at what a price...

blahbonator
27 July 2007 at 00:26

To Mr. Knight,

Thank you for responding to some selected criticisms. First of all, noone disputed the fact that a number of journalists have indeed been murdered, including the russian-american VERY PRO-PUTIN Paul Hlebnikov. Russia is not yet in a state that could be described as completely stable and secure. It was even less so in the 90s period of gung-ho capitalism. The point is that we're working on it, trying to implement social and structural reforms, some successful, some not. These reforms seem to bring about a little more stability both economic and political, do you deny this? Humans have this propensity to die. Since Russia is a big country and has a large number of journalists, it is inevitable that at least a certain number of them are involved in premature death, especially given our high crime rate. Please look more at that report, a lot of these murders show up as "court: convicted" or at least "investigation". But wait, you say, no Russian court or Police could ever be trusted! Wonderful thing bias is.

As someone already said, interesting how you claim that Russian tv is completely untrustworthy, yet use it's own reports to prove another point about skinhead attacks! That aside, I have a problem with how you all of a sudden switch the topic to real fascists. Obviously, Russia, just like all European countries has it's problems with young Nazis, and this problem is discussed in detail in both print and TV media. But earlier you were accusing Nashi and other patriotic organizations of being fascist, not the real fascists against whom these young and admittedly overly-idealistic Nashi kids are trying to rally!

Another matter is ownership. You probably don't have a problem with Rupert Murdoch owning Myspace.com and having the power to silence all these kids? You also probably don't have a problem with Berezovskiy owning half of Russia's TV channels in the 90s as well? He may be a son of a bit** but he's OUR son of a bit**, right? But oh no, when a Russian giant company with tons of disposable income buys up media services into an independently operated Gazprom Media structure, than it becomes a problem! "Argumenty i Facty is owned by Russian bank Promsvyazbank" - oh, a private bank with 16% owned by Germany's Commerzbank is also a problem? And how about TV-6, the Russian independent and clearly anti-Putin TV channel? Until recently the leading journalist there (forget her name) reported in what seemed like a bad inverse-parody on soviet television "In other news, an avalanche in the mountains; I hope that murderer Putin washed the blood of his hands!". THE POINT is that you have to look at what exactly is being reported, and so far the only issues I have seen Russian news channels skimp on were nationalist marches. Everything else got covered: Chechnia, Politkovskaya (she only became famous post death, before that she was a complete nobody), Litvinenko (ditto), Governor elections replaced by by appointment (lots of discussion on this), Nationalism and fascism problems, demographics, and so on... you have to look at the facts, not possibilities of who could censor whom!

In any case, to anyone actually living here it's indisputable that a large number of alternative sources of information exists. You claim that most people CHOOSE to rely on Russian sources (accepting for a second your ridiculous assumption of it all being personally run by our glorious leader :) ), but I highlighted the word "choose" for a reason. Except for a few overly idealistic or plain russophobic dissidents like Limonov and Kasparov, the things being said are in agreement with what the people themselves feel and think and see in our post-catastrophe life. It's quite naive to attribute Putin's approval rating of 80% to media censorship. People love a strong leader that fights for them, at least in his words. Russians like strong leaders more so than others, who are you to tell us that this is wrong? That goes against the philosophy of cultural relativism you probably subscribe to.

The funny thing is, most people in Russia who are in active opposition and who claim that all media and in fact all of life is controlled by the government are also the people who think that Putin is a Zionist who probably drinks Slav babies' blood. As in - hardcore nationalists and xenophobes who form by far the largest opposition to Putin and his centrists and liberal reformists. Try reading an alternative newspaper like "Zavtra".

I understand, it's always exciting to feel like a freedom fighter, struggling for "good" and such, but if you insist on your extremely biased reporting and outright russophobic lies (golodomor), please consider choosing another country to cover. We can handle ourselves, thank you.

blahbonator
27 July 2007 at 00:40

sorry, when I said tv6, i meant ren-tv.

A Reader
27 July 2007 at 05:40

Mr. Knight,

I have to agree that you conflated the original disturbances in Tallinn, where there were a number of arrests and a death, with the subsequent Nashi picketing of the Estonian Embassy and harassment of the ambassador. And if you include journalists working in the provinces, I've seen a number greater than 200 rather than the 15 you mention (since 1991). However, the accusations of lying, challenges to write about UK/US shortcomings instead, etc., are merely standard responses to non-standard-English comments on articles dealing with Russia, it seems.

Control of public opinion is considerably more clever than it was in the old days. People are allowed to vent - as long as they are not potentially influential people. For example, the "russophobic" Kasparov. Respectfully featuring every utterance of one politician while simply ignoring or disparaging those of any opponent is proving a highly successful technique. Remember, even George Bush had stratospheric approval ratings as long no one dared - for patriotric reasons - to challenge him in public.

Thanks to high oil prices, the Russians are now living better than any time in decades; Putin's even promised that every dwelling will have indoor plumbing by 2009. So they wait to see who he'll pick for his successor, and try to drown out worried observations from abroad.

chiragu
27 July 2007 at 07:51

Dear Mr. A Reader.

Do not try to suppress the exposure of Mr. Knight's lie with your provoking utterances. Money that Mr. Berezovsky paid dear author for this article is dirty for sure and because of journalists like him, the journalism seems prostitution, indeed.

Dear Mr. Knight, you are distort facts very lubberly. 152 journalists are died since 1991? Are you know how many non-journalists are died during that time? Are all of them killed by fascist too? Ecological camp attackers was fascists? Investigation still not complete, why you allege this? May be attackers was simply drunk morons? I want to give you a good advise: if your professional skill low so much, please write about high life or UFO and do not touch policy or history.

Tartar
27 July 2007 at 08:07

What about murders of journalists in the times of Eltsin? Why Eltsin is democrat but Putin not? Most of 152 journalists died in Eltsin era! Eltsin destroied Russia - for GB and USA he was really cool man. Putin try to save country - he is awfull tyrant. Goot logic

IrritatedofTonbridge
27 July 2007 at 09:59

Gavin Knight, refute means disprove. If you can't get that basic fact right then I imagine you're going to struggle with more complex issues. It's just a pity that so many people commenting on this article are mad as balloons.

Anuta
27 July 2007 at 16:28

Matter is that Mr Knight is not going to refute or to prove anything. He just realized article and got money. He can just nothing to say.

Colonel Blimp
27 July 2007 at 17:41

Couldn't have put it better meself Anuta.

eF 28 July 2007 at 13:00

I understand Russians being indignant by the biased article. Despite all problems of Russia things are not so bad for common citizens. Majority of people has possibility to leave, to realize and advance themselves without any, or big, problems nowadays in Russia. Why then should they listen to talks that Russia is becoming a fascist country and any other sort of accusations?

There are only some people whose lives are incompatible to Russians circumstances: like Anna Politkovska, like Litvinenko, like some African students having been slaughtered, like peaceful Chechen people and others. Some of them are discordant with existent things others differ by appearance. And this is not specific up-to-date Russian problem.

Vietnam, Iraq and Saddam were incompatible to American democracy, Armenians where incompatible to Young Turkey nationalists, Jews and Roms were incompatible to Nazi Germany. The same were Ukraine, Volga region, Kazakhstan, South Ural and some other regions’ individualistic way of society organization to Stalin’s collectivization strategy. Ukrainian starvation of 1932-33 appeared most mass that does not reduce dreadfulness of others.

You all may know that there where starvations in the history like Indian in 18th century and Irish in 19th. All of them, and 1932-33 also, where resulted by aliens who wanted to exploit forcedly. They cared not for others’ lives, rights and dignity.

I would not like to criticize or support article. I’m greatful to Gavin that he mentioned Ukrainian Holodomor. Independently what it was: crime, incompetence, failure of crops or organized assassination, - it was!

And I bag others to understand that the problem really lies in that guys who want to master people’s fates on Earth are not going to recognize such global tragedies and apology for their predecessors, wherever it is Russia, USA, Turkey, GB, etc. In my opinion, rulers of these countries and some others secretly admire those who dared to organize such crimes. As I see, they also definite will, if they will have a chance and cause for self excuse. I wish that simple citizens were not warming themselves in rays of this bloody greatness.

Egor
28 July 2007 at 19:45

It is really good that you try to be balanced. Unfortunately, you fail.

On a simple point of being ironical where you should not. Yep, Russia has more problems than the UK or US and we do care about them - including literally 5 or 7 (during the last 20 years) murders of African students by Nazi-like ultra rights, brutalities of the Chechen wars and the others.

We, however, do remember about many other things which an average westerner is just not aware of because of such biased articles as this one.

We care about over 20,000 non-Chechens (mostly Russians and Cossacks but also Ukrainians, Armenians, Jews et al) who were murdered by "peaceful Chechens” in 1991 - 93 and 1996 - 99 i. e. when there were no Russian troops in Chechnya. Not mentioning dozens of thousands of non-Chechens (let me call them Russians for the simplicity) who were kidnapped and kept as (not “like” - AS) slaves, raped, injured, tortured, deprived of their property etc. by "peaceful Chechens".

250,000 of the Russians had to leave Chechnya in the “peaceful time” - those who did not loose any of their loved ones and could sell their flats or houses for a price sufficient to pay for the ticket to Russia were VERY LUCKY ones...

We do know what is the Chechen mafia and how many Russians were killed by Chechen criminals just because these Russians were defending their dignity or their wives, children or property.

And the West knows NOTHING about this - may be a few could remember four Brits with their heads chopped off by "peaceful Chechens".

Let me make it clear - I am not blaming the whole Chechen nation. But it did go out of common sense like Germans during the Hitler times. And it had to be fixed. And it was.

I am not commenting numerous lies about "Russian brutality" - although I can easily admit that there was a lot of brutality on the side of the Russian Army this can never be compared with the medieval brutality of the opposite side.

Oh, and what about Politkovskaya? Just one thing - she was neither popular nor objective and most Russians did not trust her. That is all for today.

IrynaLviv
28 July 2007 at 20:38

It's pity that many people know about Ukrainian famine so little.

"In Russia proper there was famine in Povolzhie at the same time and it was no lesser than in Ukraine" - not really. Famine in Povolzia was not hided by ruling elite and not hided by it. Quite opposite, support for people there was provided and food delivered. In Ukraine all was opposite. Food (ALL kinds of it!) was taked by force and either wasted or moved away (in Soviet state or abroad, no matter). Any support and lie all around that famine doesnt exist, in time when thousands and thousands went to holes, everywhere, many of them still alive, but better do job today than delay it for tomorrow (popular saying in Soviet Union). Again, borders of Ukraine were guarded by Red Army with weapons, and people not allowed go out, they had die inside, or be killed at borders… big cities were guarded too, but not so strong, here was easier with food, people received a very minimal portions.. peasants who were able to come, were dying on streets, everywhere. Children too. Many. If you are interested, pictures and documents are available.

"Not to mention that famine was enforced by ukranian members of communist party! " Actually there was any separate "Ukrainian Communist Party", only division of Central one with such name. However there was members who didn't like (just can't) to execute this terrible crime against humanity. Nobody of them survived, it is common historical facts. Same with pastors who protested, communists tortured and killed such people, buried alive often too.

Taking into account that 2WW events and battles since 1939 to 1945 did occur at Ukrainian territory, there was huge human losses, because both armies not only fighted but killed civilians too... but that losses can't be even compared with quantity of people killed by communists, especially in Ukraine, as one of biggest ex-Soviet "republics". However they were alwas good in hiding their crimes, and in propaganda. Facts and horror of famine (and we had them 3 under Soviet rule!) still unknown in world, even being investigated (not completely but quite enough to know). Unfortunately, modern Russia inherited too much from ex-Soviet State.

I am not sure that 30% of Russians have access to Internet. Even if so, 90% of them don't beleive to minds and opinions which are 'different'. And a very same was in Soviet time (by the way).............

IrynaLviv
28 July 2007 at 20:40

It's pity that so many people know about Ukrainian famine so little.

I am not sure that 30% of Russians have access to Internet. Even if so, 90% of them don't beleive to minds and opinions which are 'different'. And a very same was in Soviet time (by the way).......

IrynaLviv
28 July 2007 at 20:41

It's pity that so many people know about Ukrainian famine so little.

Doroteya says: "In Russia proper there was famine in Povolzhie at the same time and it was no lesser than in Ukraine" - not at all. Famine in Povolzia was not made by ruling elite and not hided by it. Quite opposite, support for people there was provided and food delivered. In Ukraine all was opposite. Food (ALL kinds of it!) was taked by force and either wasted or moved away (in Soviet state or abroad, no matter). Any support and lie all around that famine doesnt exist, in time when thousands and thousands went to holes, everywhere, many of them still alive, but better do job today than delay it for tomorrow (popular saying in Soviet Union). Again, borders of Ukraine were guarded by Red Army with weapons, and people not allowed go out, they had die inside, or be killed at borders… big cities were guarded too, but not so strong, here was easier with food, people received a very minimal portions.. peasants who were able to come, were dying on streets, everywhere. Children too. Many. If you are interested, pictures and documents are available.

I am not sure that 30% of Russians have access to Internet. Even if so, 90% of them don't beleive to minds and opinions which are 'different'. And a very same was in Soviet time (by the way).......

Freeliner
29 July 2007 at 03:58

IrinaLviv is one more example of a person blaiming Russia for the deeds of a Communist regime.

Is Communist ideology created by Russians? No, it is created by a German Jew - Karl Marx.

Did the orders of collectivization and force acquisition of crops from peasants came from Russian? No, they came from Georgian - Stalin(his Georgian surname - Dzhugashvili). His most cruel henchman - Beria - was Georgian as well.

Russian people lost many more people due to Stalin oppression then any other nation in former SU - and still you blaim Russians for the deeds which were made by hands of all Communists - Russian, Ukranian, Georgian and so on.

What happened is a fault of a specific ideology and its apologets but not of a specific nation like it was with fascism.

This kind of bias against Russians is extremely popular among people of former USSR republics - and it is once more shown by IrinaLviv (Lviv is a well-known capital of Ukranian ultra-nationalist sentiments, btw) and by young Estonian guy Ganz in this thread.

It is understandable, though, why political elites in this former Soviet Union countries strongly support anti-Russian propaganda. It can be an excellent topic for discussion with Irina or Ganz, but this thread is not the best place for it =)

Concerning Russians and Internet - beleive me, in large cities like St.Petersburg or Moscow - almost 80% has access to Internet - except old babushkas and dedushkas, maybe =) And keeping in mind that majority of people in Russia are city-dwellers, 30% of Internet users seems an underestimation for me. Another matter is knowledge of English - and Inosmi helps a lot in "deleting cultural barriers and promoting freedom of speech and oppinions" by placing foreign article translations on its pages.

LessDrama
29 July 2007 at 07:08

The problem with Russia is not that it is run by Putin, a KGB man who has put the KGB in charge of companies, media, political parties and everything else. The problem is that Russians LIKE being run by Putin, a KGB man who has put the KGB... A Russian poll this week said that 54 of Russia's youth said Stalin did more harm than good. This is the real problem - for decades to come.

LessDrama
29 July 2007 at 07:19

Sorry, just to be clear: that should have read "more good than harm." Another 40 percent said that Stalin's role in repressions has been exagerated.

George
29 July 2007 at 13:17

Yes this article was very one-sided. Yes it was extremely critical of Putin, but the reactions of Russians speak volumes about the current Russian mindset.

The problem with Russians is that they used to be a superpower absolutely equivalent to the United States. They were told that Theirs was the greatest nation in the world, and they were the best educated people in the world.

In spite of Russia's current booming economy, they are far from a superpower now and amongst the other countries of the highly educaded and developed world (mainly the US, the EU and Japan) they are in a pretty small minority. Consequently when numerous international bodies from the latter countries single out Russia for criticism on many matters including some raised in the above article, as they frequently do, they have a very high degree of objectivity.

For instance, when the OSCE (with 55 member states)says the first two Ukrainian elections were rigged, it is because they were rigged, not because they were paid by anyone to say so. And when there is an official statement from the EU backing Britain in the Litvinenko arguments with Russia, it is because there is a consensus amongst highly informed people from many countries. If anyone thinks that Britain can tell the whole EU what to say I wonder what they are on.

It is about time that Russians started taking all criticisms of Russia seriously (and realise that their news media cannot be compared to those of the genuinely free world) instead of taking the easy option of dismissing it all as conspiracy.

Unarmed Ukrainian
29 July 2007 at 13:35

We shouldn’t forget that Russia, of its own free will, remains the sole successor state to the USSR.

It’s sad how, on both sides, people often see things with their eyes wide shut. The good old “my-enemy’s-enemy-is-my-friend” logic doesn’t win many friends.

What’s really missing in Ukraine is a Holodomor/Gulag theme park, complete with “special diet programs” and “wood logging contests” based on eyewitness accounts and KGB archives. It would be a reality-show for Kremlin lovers/White House haters to examine their dogmas. And if Russians invented something similar, instead of the Dom series, it would help them build a future free from the shadows of the past.

Egor
29 July 2007 at 14:44

Unarmed Ukrainian.

That is right, Russia is the sole legal successor of the Soviet Union.

We inherited all its legal rights, assets and debts - and by the way although we proposed to share them equally no one was interested just because the debts were "a bit " higher.

14 former USSR Republics agreed with this approach - and only one (Ukraine) is still saying that although it does not want to pay any debts (mostly already paid off by Russia in any case) it would be interested in its share of assets of the former USSR.

One of the reasons why Ukrainian nationalists are trying to convince the world that the 1932-33 was a genocide is that they hope after that to demand from Russia compensation.

Well, if you do not understand the difference between a legal successor and a criminal and do not know that during the same famine (organized or used - depending on the views) by the Commies Russians lost at the VERY least 2 or 3 million of their population (which is quite close to the most trustworthy estimate of the Ukrainian losses: 3 - 4 million) plus thousands executed and 1.5 million sent to the labour camps (of whom too many died) during the second civil war in Siberia and at the Don, well... you should just learn the history.

By the way, absolutely not taking responsibility from the Russians for being ruled by Stalin et al (yes, we should be blamed as the major nation of the USSR which constituted 53 or 54% of its population), I would like to point out at a very simple and fully ignored at the west fact: the Russians resisted to the Commies by far more actively, longer and with greater courage and losses than any other nation of the Russian Empire.

Moreover, although by the end of 30's there already young communist-minded Russians coming to the power (and they finally created the proportionate majority after the WWII) it was not exactly the case during the first 20 years of the Communist time - e.g. there were I think literally 1 or 2 Russians in the first Communist government and very few at the "top management" of the ChK (the bloody predecessor of KGB).

IrynaLviv
29 July 2007 at 17:44

2 Freeliner

You wrote: "IrynaLviv (me) is one more example of a person blaiming Russia for the deeds of a Communist regime" – Not at all. I spoke about terrible facts in the past, and sad facts nowadays, but it is not my habit to blame anybody, ever.

No matter who – and what Nationality was that person – created “communist idea”. Maybe even it is not bad by itself. But we all see how it works! As we use to say (since 1st femine time, end of 20th last century) – where “sickle and hummer” (Soviet symbol) there death and famine. Of course it sounds better in Ukrainian, this is only my translation, but it is fact. Communist ideology creates totalitarian societies where millions and millions are tortured and killed, and that who are alive, learn live in false, silence and obedience.

Again. No matter where from orders come! In case of famine, they were surely directed against Ukrainians (later against Tatarians, religious groups etc etc etc.). Ukrainian tragedy is different and seems be not real only because of scale and methods used on so big scale. No wonder, that normal people living nowadays, can’t imagine that all this was really done. I can only suggest you to read historical witnesses, including the British scientist and writer, Robert Conquest. He is Senior Research Fellow and Scholar-Curator of the East European Collection at the Hoover Institution, Stanford University.

“The Harvest of Sorrow” is the first full history of one of the most horrendous human tragedies of the 20th century - a "terror-famine” 1932-33 inflicted by the State on the collectivized peasants of the Ukraine and certain other areas by setting impossibly high grain quotas, removing every other source of food, and preventing help from outside--even from other areas of the Soviet Union--from reaching the starving populace. The death toll resulting from the actions described in this book was an estimated 14.5 million--more than the total number of deaths for all countries in World War I.

So, I recommend you to read at least this study.

I agree about fault of a specific ideology and its apologets but not of a specific nation. But problem is that similar totalitarion society, and state, are arising in Russia now again. We all can see methods to kill civilians used in Chechnia, even in UK some people who can give their witnesses, are killed. Also ultra-right movements (skinheads and others) are nowadays very spreaded in Russia (and killings of so-called "Caucasians" or Asian people). That movements are less or more openly supported by Russian FSB, and can't be managed, and used against democratic groups, movements, organizations.

It is problem for all of us, living in this World.

Again, you said: “It is understandable, though, why political elites in this former Soviet Union countries strongly support anti-Russian propaganda. It can be an excellent topic for discussion with Irina or Ganz, but this thread is not the best place for it =) “ – as you see, it has no sence :( so, I don't reply.

2 Egor

"One of the reasons why Ukrainian nationalists are trying to convince the world that the 1932-33 was a genocide is that they hope after that to demand from Russia compensation" - I see. IT IS YOUR ONLY CONCERN!!

For reference: at start of XX century there was near 100 mln people living in Ukraine. At end of XX century, there was only 50 mln of Ukrainians.

IrynaLviv
29 July 2007 at 17:47

I had write above "That movements are less or more openly supported by Russian FSB, and CAN (instead can't) be managed, and used against democratic groups, movements, organizations"

IrynaLviv
29 July 2007 at 18:02

"Russia is the sole legal successor of the Soviet Union. We inherited all its legal rights, assets and debts - and by the way although we proposed to share them equally no one was interested just because the debts were "a bit " higher"

You just forgot to mention, that Russia kept also all assents including hugest in World Gold Fund, also Diamond Fund, all cash in all foreign currencies which was accumulated in Moscow, and Central Bank stealed all deposits which Soviet people who had foreign currency (many worked abroad or received inheritance, and costs were allowed to deposit in one bank only) had. Deposits were returned to Russioans only and nobody else. Again, Russia kept all property abroad which belonged to Soviet Union and also is huge, and costs few times more than all debts of Soviet Union. Moreover, all credits which are also much bigger than debts, belongs to Russia now, and even if 50% will be paid, it is enough to pay debts. In other case, that credits can be used to have influence in other countries.

Even costs collected to Chornobyl Fund soon after disaster, were collected and remain in Russia.

If Russia is the sole legal successor, it will have sence to undertake responsibility for Chornobyl as good? Planned, designed, constructed and managed directly from Moscow, by the way.

And don't say I blame Russians! My father was Russian, so I am little too. I only say true and provide facts.

maidan
29 July 2007 at 18:02

I want to point out lies in the first posting by dorotea, made on 24 July 2007

> politically motivated "class struggle" cleansing engineered by bolsheviks.

Almost true, except that the victim "class" in that "class struggle" magically coincided with ethnic Ukrainian peasants.

> Not to mention that famine was enforced by ukranian members of communist party!

But it should be mentioned, though, that the "Ukrainian" communist party was founded in the "Ukrainian" city of Moscow, and then the communist Russian Federation declared war on independent Ukraine and occupied it by force to bring this "Ukrainian" communist party to power.

> What ethnic cleansing we are talking about if millions of ethnics ukrainians fled to Russia proper

That is outright lies, as there were troops deployed around major cities and along the border with Russia precisely to prevent the starving peasants from fleeing the famine. There were very a few lucky ones who actually managed to find their way through, but certainly not millions.

> 30% russians have access to the internet and can read your 'creative' ramblings.

This is ridiculous. I don't have the exact statistics, but it is certain that (I don't know how much) less thatn 10% of Russians can understand, let alone speak English - I am pretty sure any English speaker who has ever been to Russia will agree.

maidan
29 July 2007 at 18:16

To Egor

> That is right, Russia is the sole legal successor of the Soviet Union.

The fact, that Ukraine does not recognize this means this is not true.

> and only one (Ukraine) is still saying that although it does not want to pay any debts (mostly already paid off by Russia in any case) it would be interested in its share of assets of the former USSR.

That is not true. Ukraine is interested in finding out what the debts and assets are. Russia does have this information, but has been refusing to provide it for 16 years. That is a clear indication that the assets are higher than debts and Russia is simply trying to hog them.

chiragu
30 July 2007 at 09:06

Well, discussion is fatally daubed by various "russians" from former Soviet Union republics with brains washed by Washington's orange slops.

Dear british and europeans! Not every man who speaks russian are really russian. Russian are the only man who do not sell his motherland not at any price. Soldiers (russians, ukrainian, byelorussian) who was not surrendered in trenches without ammunition in front of tanks at 1941, was russians. Pilots of i-16 fighters who two together attacked a group of 12 bf-109 without any hope to win, was russians. Man without any livelihood, who decline the offer to write a filth (like this article) about motherland for good payment, is russian. All others are simply can speak russian, not more. Gordievsky, Litvinenko, Politkovskaya and all other fetishes of your rusofobia are not russians.

Communism was a big disaster for all nations of former Soviet Union, but now some nationalist morons at former Soviet Union republics are trying to accuse russians of all their past, present and future problems. Most part of them wants a money. They are welcome to get ears of dead donkey.

Richard Cheeseman
30 July 2007 at 12:43

Vile propaganda like this isn't worth replying to on its own terms, except to make fun of e.g. the author's "nashi.su" gaffe.

It's more interesting to consider WHY the anti-Russian hate-speech is being promoted so much right now, especially in the pseudo-left corporate media.

Not enough has changed recently in Russia to be the reason for the current diplomatic provocations and the proliferation of Putin=communist dictator=evil bile in official Western opinion. For a more likely explanation we should look at the US plans to illegally partition Serbia, introduce new missiles in Europe, and attack Iran. Britain, the US empire's attack poodle and closest confidant, is preparing its population to side with the UK/US axis of aggression as it commits new crimes against humanity, against strong Russian opposition.

Egor
30 July 2007 at 12:48

Irina Lviv

"IT IS YOUR ONLY CONCERN!! "

As I said this ONE OF the reasons for the Ukrainian nationalists. Most interesting, you are actually not arguing this.

"For reference: at start of XX century there was near 100 mln people living in Ukraine. At end of XX century, there was only 50 mln of Ukrainians."

Well, first of all, there was no Ukraine at the start of XX century. If you mean "territory of the present Ukraine", it includes a number of lands which were (and still are) mostly populated by Russians - in fact, in terms of the territory Ukraine benefited from the dissolution of the USSR by FAR more than any other Republic.

As regards "100 millions" - it seems to be a really stupid Ukrainian propaganda since the whole population of the Russian Empire in 1914 was, I guess, around or less than 150 million. Do you mean that Ukrainians consisted 2/3 of it?

Very funny.

In terms of absolute direct or indirect losses, there is no doubt that the Russians suffered by far the most - during the WWI, Civil Wars, WWII (2/3 of all losses of the Soviet Union) and Stalin repressions. But, unlike in the nationalistic groups of the Ukraine (unfortunately, well presented in your government) we in Russia do not separate victims by nationality and remember all of them.

"You just forgot to mention, that Russia kept also all assents"

If you read my sentence to which you are replying you will realize that I have mentioned "the assents". Perhaps, you forgot to read the sentence?

I am not commenting on other stupidities of Ukrainian propaganda which you mention in relation to this.

It is true as maidan said that technically the debts of the USSR were comparable to its assets / rights of demand but most of the USSR debtors were just hopeless and we already wrote off I think around USD 20,000,000,000. I am not mentioning the post-Soviet credits to the former republics - e.g. Ukraine still owes to Russia quite a lot.

"The death toll resulting from the actions described in this book was an estimated 14.5 million--more than the total number of deaths for all countries in World War I. "

Conquest is a serious researcher but he simply had no access to all documents and therefore made wrong / biased estimates. Like Solzhenitsyn who estimated the Stalin time losses at 60,000,000. That was good as a first attempt of analysis and the first outcry but not good enough now to seriously speak about this dreadful common past.

"If Russia is the sole legal successor, it will have sence to undertake responsibility for Chornobyl as good? Planned, designed, constructed and managed directly from Moscow, by the way."

This is just ridiculous.

Lady, you are really brainwashed.

Maidan

“The fact, that Ukraine does not recognize this means this is not true.”

Fine, stay with this. Unfortunately for you, this is recognized by the UN and ALL other countries – apart of the “mighty” Ukraine.

“But it should be mentioned, though, that the "Ukrainian" communist party was founded in the "Ukrainian" city of Moscow, and then the communist Russian Federation declared war on independent Ukraine and occupied it by force to bring this "Ukrainian" communist party to power.”

That’s funny how the myths are created out of nothing.

At that time, there was a Civil War on the territory of the Russian Empire with a number of local powers not recognized by the world. In Ukraine, there were during the Civil War I think at least 3 or 4 centers of power – including the Russian Whites, Ukrainian nationalist government, Communists… let alone the German army and very powerful peasant “anarchist” armies. What exactly do you mean by the “independent Ukraine”, who elected its government, what territory it controlled, which countries recognized it and how long did it exist?

Enough for today.

bayofpigs
30 July 2007 at 14:11

Nashi was probably set up as an opposition to the US NGOs' organization Oborona which like similar youth movements is trying to subvert democracy and promote globalization. Anyway, I bet Gordon Brown wishes he had a personality cult.

IrynaLviv
30 July 2007 at 19:10

Dear Egor, I don't argue "ONE OF the reasons for the Ukrainian nationalists" because I don't see what to argue at all, because discussion is about much bigger, fundamental things, not JUST MONEY. How many costs the life of child? of 1000 children? million? It is not even possible to discuss...

By the way, who are Ukrainian nationalists, all Ukrainians, or part of them? Can I call you Russian nationalist? It is something good, in your understanding, or not?

You wrote: "...there was no Ukraine at the start of XX century. If you mean 'territory of the present Ukraine', it includes a number of lands which were (and still are) mostly populated by Russians..." actually, Ukraine wasn't independent only (except very short time in 1917-1918 when Western Ukraininan Republic, before in Austrian-Hungarian Empiry, declared reunification with Ukrainian Republic, belonged before to Russian Empiry) but UKRAINE EXISTED for sure, and due to census, there was much more ethnic Ukrainians in its territory that time in comparison with now. Ukraine existed long ago before Petr I got our name "Rus" and used it to call Moskovian State as "Russia" (nearly 300 years ago).

"...in fact, in terms of the territory Ukraine benefited from the dissolution of the USSR by FAR more than any other Republic..." - very controversial assumption, taking into consideration that initially Ukrainian republic included some Eastern territories which belongs to Russia now, and some Western etnical Ukrainian territories, by the way, rich in oil and gas, which were in Drogobych Oblast before and were passed to Poland by Stalin's decision after 2d WW.

(I don't pretend for anything, it was just reference).

"...the whole population of the Russian Empire in 1914 was, I guess, around or less than 150 million. Do you mean that Ukrainians consisted 2/3 of it?" EXACTLY. Russians were about 50 millions, or little less, all together, with less numerous nations, about 150-160mln. However, in Soviet time Ukraine had the hugest human losses, and many people from Russia were moved to empty - after famine - villages. Also many was moved to Crimea where were also big empty areas after deportations of tatarians. Again, millions of Ukrainians were moved to Syberia (overloaded with little children into railway carriages for goods, so till end of long way survived less that half of them) after 2d WW. That who survived, in most of cases assimilated in Russia, instead people from Russia were moved to their empty buildings in villages. It was Soviet politics, to get people away from their roots and amuse live with fear... We all from ex-Soviet State shall remember it, because who else has so rich experience to live under totalitarian regime?

IrynaLviv
30 July 2007 at 19:45

2Egor - next

"...What exactly do you mean by the “independent Ukraine”, who elected its government.."

Could you tell me, who and hoe elected Soviet Government? And HOW communists took power?

Almost true, except one thing - bolshevicks did it in communist congress in Kharkiv, but only after majority leaved that congress protesting against their policy! Being in minority, without 'opposition' which in fact was in majority, they declared creatin of Soviet Ukraine and attacked Central Government in Kyib with red Army. Typical for next Soviet years... no matter how to vote, only important who counts.

I wrote "If Russia is the sole legal successor, it will have sence to undertake responsibility for Chornobyl as good? Planned, designed, constructed and managed directly from Moscow, by the way."

And you replied: "This is just ridiculous" WHY?

"Lady, you are really brainwashed" WHY? Maybe YOU ARE?

By the way, I didn't offent neither you nor anybody. But it seems you haven't other arguments! Except outrage...

"Russia kept also all assents" - Yes. I had mean ASSETS, SORRY.

blahbonator
31 July 2007 at 02:48

To the sane Russians here: stop arguing with these "ukrainian" nationalists and russophobes. With things like "Lvyv" or "Maidan" in their usernames, they're hopeless. Unfortunately not every Western reader will actually go and look up historical facts, not to mention their occasional unavailability, but I guarantee you, noone will read our ramblings and make any sense of them either. Unless you're doing it for English practice, in which case enjoy :)

To the "ukrainians": your "nationality" is a product of Polish propaganda, your Malorossian heritage is squirming in pain and sorrow from the shame you inflict on it daily by attempting to slaughter your past and replacing it with orange myths. Thankfully 60% of people in what is now called "ukraine" have not forgotten who they are.

eF 31 July 2007 at 07:28

Blahbonator,

you are right. Instead of arguing Russians and Ukrainians should just go each their own way. To many resentments, misunderstandings, stocks and myths stored from both sides. Our nations should forget about each other for some historical period to reacquaint later as equal and find lots of both similarities and differences.

IrynaLviv
31 July 2007 at 07:43

"...your "nationality" is a product of Polish propaganda, your Malorossian heritage is squirming in pain and sorrow from the shame you inflict on it daily by attempting to slaughter your past and replacing it with orange myths"

:D Dear Russian nationalists! If it is your LAST ARGUMENT, it can make me only laugh. THANK YOU!

K. Malevich
31 July 2007 at 21:24

Thank you Mr. Knight for your excellent article and follow-up comments. The world needs many more bright beams of light, like that shone by your findings, to help Russians who care, and their many friends, protect whatever is left of their hard-won freedoms. The good people of Russia should not have to suffer from the lunatic obsessions, hate and fear slogged on them by the calcified Great Russian chauvinists and farmyard fascists that infect the increasingly authoritarian state and its machinery. Pride in Russia and its history should not blind anyone to the frightening developments in and around the Kremlin today.

Egor
31 July 2007 at 23:04

IrynaLviv

Irina, I am sorry to say this but I have no intention to argue with a person who seriously believes that the Russian Empire consisted of 2/3 Ukrainians and 1/3 of Russians (still hope you meant something less funny) or that Chernobyl Atomic Station was "controlled from Moscow".

I do not like any nationalists - Russian, Ukrainian, etc.

The difference between our countries is that in Russia they have no real power (although they are getting some as a result of the huge wave of nationalism in the former Soviet republics - and this is a shame since Russians have always been strong because of our true spirit of internationalism) and in Ukraine (and most other former Soviet republics) they are well represented at the top and in the mass-media and just brain-wash younger Ukrainians et al like you (I think you are young and sincere but may be you should read some alternative sources about your history - even if you do not like them).

Due to my work, I often speak to Ukrainians and sometimes hear amazing things from young ones, like "oh, you, Russians appear to be so good guys and so much like us, unbelievable!"

Heh.

The sooner you, Ukrainians, realise that you are just another young nation with all your advantages and disadvantages and the sooner you stop trying to find "an outer evil who made all bad that happened to you in the past" and feel your own responsibility for your history - and the future - the sooner you are going to be better off.

I sincerely wish your country good luck and prosperity.

We have to be at least neighbours - and I wish we remain brothers as we have been for the last 300 years. For this, we have to learn to respect each other (this relates to both nations) and our COMMON past.

BTW, it is absolutely incorrect to translate Malorossya as "Little Russia" - the old meaning of the word is "the initial" since Kiev was the first capital of Ancient Russia.

PS Let me at last to express one more time my deepest disrespect to Mr Knight for all his lies and ignorance - finally, that was the first reason why I visited this sight :))

K. Malevich
31 July 2007 at 23:43

And thank you Irina Lviv for challenging the truly silly xenophobic rants of the “Nashi-isty” posts here. We should be prepared for more such nonsense from the “Putin-jugen.” Of course, as in other empires, some of the most calcified chauvinists can never manage to see themselves as the little reactionary rats that they are, accepting instead delusional self-images of themselves as "internationalists," when, at best they are merely ugly "Great Stateists." Take heart – without doubt, everyone else sees them for what they are.

chiragu
01 August 2007 at 06:42

Dear mr. K. Malevich! Thank you for you care about russians and their freedom. There were many figures in the recent past who did tryes to release Russia and help russians. They was: Karl XII at 1708, Napoleon at 1812, Hitler at 1941 etc. Mortal remains of their soldiers still rots in russian soil. I want to give you a good advice: please leave Russia and russians alone, it is all that men like you can do.

And any more. I am not a "Nashi" member and most part of above posters are not "Nashi" members too. Do not try to suppress the exposure of the monstrous lie of this article with another lie about membership of posters.

Egor
01 August 2007 at 10:44

Came back for the last time.

This time about a recent massacre in an Ingush village.

Ingushetia is a Russian Caucasian autonomous republic bordering Chechnya and having, generally the same problems of corruption, nationalism, poverty v. wealth of a few and of course terrorism and Muslim fanatics (initially coming from Chechnya).

A Russian family was massacred: a 56 y.o. teacher, her 19 y.o. son and 23 y.o. daughter.

A blind 50 y.o. brother of the teacher was intentionally left alive.

The murderer came at night, professionally shot the victims in their heads using the gun with silencer and disappeared leaving all property intact.

That was the last Russian family in the street left - all others left the village and Ingushetia 16 years ago when the Russians were massacred in that republic en mass (not that en mass as in Chechnya though).

Now the Ingushetia government has been trying to attract Russians back - for a simple practical reason: Ingush people do like certain jobs like to be engineers or teachers preferring business, law, state service etc. therefore there is a huge problem with what is remaining of the Soviet time industry there.

And there is no doubt that this murder was a response of the local (or Chechen) terrorists.

The second act of the tragedy followed at the FUNERAL where a bomb exploded and several people (mostly Ingush who came to pay the last tribute to the Teacher and her children) were badly injured.

Surely, that tragedy could have made the headings in any western newspaper - but somehow it (as well as hundreds similar tragedies) went absolutely unnoticed by all "experienced experts" in their own fantasies about "Russian fascism" like Knight and others.

Knight is such an obvious Russophobe that I am not surprised that he has no intention to try to understand and write the real problems of Russia and instead prefers to operate within a few myths and common places sufficient to please may be an undemanding monkey.

IrynaLviv
01 August 2007 at 14:45

Every murder is crime, was it about one family, the village, or crowds of people. But when millions are murdered, it looks much more abstract and we began discuss it often like as mathematic values...

You wrote "And there is no doubt that this murder was a response of the local (or Chechen) terrorists".

Why no doubts, was it investigated? Is there any Court decision, regarding this case, or it is just your opinion? If Court decision exists - yes, we can state that it was local or (?! why 'or' then?)Chechenian terrorists. But if no, you haven't right to affirm! It is not democracy which you like - as I suppose - to grow in Russia. It is totalitarian way to think, say and - very often- do! And as you know, both Hitler and Stalin regimes did same. They blamed people, groups, nations, without evidences, and made it a reason for further actions.

By the way, up to now any Court decision about exploses in Russian buildings, when hundreds of people were killed. But it was a reason to start 2d Chechenian war, and killing all who wasn't able to leave the capital of Chechenian autonomy. It was a good reason to kill about 50% of all Chechenian nation, while iziolating this area from any observers from abroad. It is of course a good will and best performance of developed democracy in Russia :(

As for Kyiv, it was really capital in ancient time, but not Russia, only (Kyiv) Rus', less or more on territory of current Ukraine, since 9th century. Again, the Kyiv Chronicle of 1187 had first coined the term "Ukraine" to define the southern area of Rus lands (Kyiv, Pereiaslav and Chernihiv provinces). Later this name was also applied to Halychyna, Volyn, and Podillia.

Regarding Chornobyl. I didn't write that "Atomic Station was controlled from Moscow", but "Planned, designed, constructed and managed directly from Moscow. However, you are right, it was really controled from Centre (because it is usual way in totalitarian state), this one word includes all.

davef
01 August 2007 at 19:08

What a lovely hornets' nest this has provoked! What an outpouring! Some of it may even be real. And that pseudo-intellectual IrritatedofTonBridge deserves a prize. Some unhappy experiences in childhood or early adulthood I fear?

eF 02 August 2007 at 08:17

Egor,

Murder of people is an awfull crime, and murder by national belonging is a double crime.

In line with your post I just have a question to you and

others from Russia: how do you, Russians, see WHY peoples and countries neighbouring to Russia are so ill-diposed to your country and to Russians? What is the major reason? How do you consider this problem?

chiragu
02 August 2007 at 15:25

It is simply, Mr. eF.

The refutation:

Are peoples and countries neighbouring Russia all ill-diposed to Rossia and Russians? No! Ask Kazakhs, Turkmans, Kirghizs, Tajiks, Byelorussians, Armenians, Azerbaijanians, Moldavians, East Ukrainians. Most part of them has non-washed minds and not ill-diposed to Russia and, furthermore, Russians. Come there and ask civilians, do not believe "democratic" west press. It's quite another matter the West Ukrainians and Georgia (look at posts of IrynaLviv, it is a clinic case, she can tell you that all dinosaurs were killed by Russians. I was at absolutely equal situation at Soviet Union time, why am i guilty at all of their disasters?) Only Georgia, Ukraine and Baltic states are follow anti-russian policy and accusing Russia of all of deadly sins. Why?

The old and simply reason:

After collapse of Soviet Union, all of former "soviet people" at neighbour states lived very bad and accused Moskow of this through their "soviet" habit. Furthermore, russian province lived worst than Moscow and accused Moscow of this too. It is not a real reason to hate Russia and Russians.

The new and void reason:

Russia become rich now and all neighbours want to share it's incomings or get subsidy or sop. Because of it, officials of former Soviet Union states are invents more and more reasons why Russia must give them money and become very angry then get nothing. It is not a real reason to hate Russia and Russians too, all nations voted for independence on national referendums at 1991, are Russians are guilty again?

The latest and real reason:

Please, remember the Washigton-sponsored "colour revolutions". As a result of those "revolutions" to the power of Ukraine and Georgia comes Washington-sponsored politicians. Washington can't to allow the renascence of Soviet Union and unleash a hatred between former soviet nations with all powers. It use all: from old history conflicts to premeditated provocations. Washigton-paid national historians finding new and new reasons why any nation must hate Russia and Russians (but why they must love US - it is a question). It is so hard to resist this process, but i believe that all problems will be settled within the next times.

Baltic states is an individual case. They absolutely can't to be independent, and very angry because. At 1991they are switched from USSR authority to Washigton authority, and carrys out all Washinton's orders now + all above written reasons.

It is seems that i have answered your question?

eF 02 August 2007 at 16:33

Chiragu,

Yes thanks.

But I ask for a clarification.

You did not mention Central European states like Czech Rep., Hungary, Slovakia, Poland and some others. Their position can be classified similar to Baltics, Georgia and Ukraine.

You also forgot about small Muslim regions inside Russia: Chechnya, Ingushetia, Karachai-Cherkess, Adygei, Dagestan, Kabardino-Balkaria. What about them?

Analyzing your answer, offence for bad life, avidity (wish to get some money from Russia), certain financing and organizational talent of USA and allies politically turned 180 degrees a big region where Russia for centuries spread its influence, culture, language and values. Could Russia really failed so greatly and get so hard hit?

Let’s take, for example, Bulgaria and Serbia in 19th century. The Ottoman Empire and Austrian Empire could not help stopping spreading of Russophile way of thinking and admiring Russia in these regions. How do you think, have Russia used instruments like you mentioned at that time: offence, avidity and bribery, etc.? I would dare say – yes, but in a very small deal.

K. Malevich
02 August 2007 at 17:01

Posts, such as that signed by one “chiragu,” demonstrate why fascism, while fortunately not sweeping the Russian Federation, is finding fertile ground nonetheless. A number of points manifest themselves as particularly troubling. One is the attempt to dismiss anyone who opposes their extremely narrow world-view as “nationalists” as if the accusers are blind to their own extreme form of nationalism, Great Russian chauvinism. Another is the attempt to carry over out-dated Cold War cartoon dichotomies, insisting that neighbouring countries must be either tools of Washington or Moscow – some choice. As with the first point, here too these posters seem to be blissfully unaware of Moscow’s history of strong-armed intervention, inference and tragically often times invasion with regards to what they chauvinistically consider their “near abroad.” The now rather lame allegations of Washington funding the so-called “coloured revolutions” pales by comparison to the six-to-ten fold greater expenditures by Moscow in these same struggles. But the mere numbers are also far less telling than the central fact that unlike the funds from Moscow those from the west were open and made available to and used by political parties and groups across the political spectrum, including in Ukraine, the pro-Moscow parties (Communist Party, Party of Regions, and others). Perhaps most troubling aspect of these posts is the inability or unwillingness to accept any historical responsibility for the well documented crimes committed by the previous manifestations of the Russian Empire, be it white or red, while at the very same time, demanding full credit for any assets or achievements. Modern Germany accepted responsibility for the previous Nazi regime and paid restitution to many countries and individuals, including Russians and states of the former USSR. The type of mean-spirited and blinkered chauvinism displayed by some posters here lies at the heart of the ugly fascism creeping through the lands of Moscow.

blahbonator
03 August 2007 at 00:55

ef,

Although the questions of why Russia and Russians are often disliked by various neighbors is a difficult one. You cannot simply say "it's all Western sponsored propaganda working" nor can you claim that "Russians are horrible and oppressed and destroyed everyone around them". I'm sure many a historian and political analyst spent countless hours researching that very question. The answer is probably a combination of factors: 1. Our historic "empire" thinking and actions, some of which were very much liked by most of the Slavic, Orthodox world but disliked by many others. 2. Installment of pro-Soviet communist regimes in Eastern Europe (which were initially supported by a significant percentage of the population, a support that waned with time to lead to the events of 1956, 1968 and so on) and the latter failures. 3. An active drive by new national elites in post-Soviet times to give the populations something to rally around and form their national ideas. What better thing than nationalist "anti-oppression" banter. Heavily used in places like Ukraine ("occupation museum", "holodomor = genocide by russians", ... ). 4. An active desire by third powers to destabilize and diminish any remaining Russian influence in the region. Money, promises of support, political activist, ngo fronts, weapons, playing up russophobic sentiments,... The cold war mentality didn't really end in one specific country, you know the one I'm thinking about.

I'm sure there's more. The point is that it's a complex issue and as someone before me posted, Russians have a lot of good image as well, something I won't go into, but it is definitely a thing we should leverage and work on in the near future. Thanks to Putin's leadership, our oil, gas and Soviet education we have a chance :)

p.s. no I'm not in Nashi, and would try to dissuade my kids from joining...

IrynaLviv
04 August 2007 at 20:14

"...Heavily used in places like Ukraine ("occupation museum", "holodomor = genocide by russians", ... "

NOT TRUE.

In fact:

1. Museum of SOVIET occupation.

2. Holodomor (famine) = genocide by SOVIET REGIME.

Be correct and exact, pls.

Svmconsult
05 August 2007 at 03:04

The New Facist (oh sorry Statesman) employs a writer who lived in Odessa to write on Russian affairs? Well what about a Russian who lived in the UK to write about UK Affairs? I am sure that would go down like a lead balloon once we got to questions about Beresovsky and Zakayev, not to mention facists like Brown, Miliband and Blair.

lizg
05 August 2007 at 13:44

lizg

My parents were from Rostov-on-don, Southern Russia. They both lived through the famine of the 30s due to collectivisation. Their relatives also experienced famine after WW2. Sadly, the Ukranians have claimed the famines as their own and choose for their own political reasons to ignore the millions of other nationalities who suffered. I wonder why that is?!

eF 06 August 2007 at 09:33

Lizg,

as you wrote, starvation of 30th also took place in the Southern Russia regions, like Krasnodar and Rostov.

If Rostov region was comparatively polytechnical (about 20% of population decrease in the period of 1931-1933), Krasnodar region was 70% inhabited by Ukrainians (more than 30% population decrease in the period of 1931-1933).

The family of me grandfather used to live nearby Tykhoreck of Krasnodar region. My grand-grandmother never new Russian and all people there spoke only Ukrainian. Ukrainian traditions, Ukrainian songs, Ukrainian home rule...

In the beginning of the 1933 my grandfather and his sister, being 8-10 year children went to Krasnodar by foot to relatives. They hidden themselves during the day and traveled at night as they had some food with them and where afraid of being robbed or even eaten as the incidents of cannibalism took place.

But, of course, not only Ukrainians suffered from genocide. Short information on this:

Decrease of the population in the period of 1926-1933 was more than 15% (about 5 mln) among Ukrainians, 30% (!) (about 1,3 mln) among Kazakhs, 10% (about 150 thousands each) among Mordvinians and Germans. Also about 40% of population decrease in Armenia in period 1915-1918 took place.

Carl Jones
06 August 2007 at 20:58

Last week I placed the only comment on John Kampfner`s "Londongrad" article. Kamphner appeared on "Any Questions" and was much more forcefull and to the point, than in his "Londongrad" article, I`d like to think my comment had a positive effect.lol

Gavin Knight misses the target my a mile...the rise of "fascism" in Russia. What a joke!

Amerika and Britian are by far the worlds leading "fascist" states. One wonders if Gavin`s "commission" came directly from Vauxhall?

Amerika and Britain are the childern of the Nazi party. Of course, Hitler was a creation of the Western elite, just as Western corporations built up the German war machine for a "designed" world war. This led to the end of Germanic power. The formation of the European Union through the Bilderberg Group and the creation of the Isreali state.

Its hard to know if Putin is working for the Russian people, or Lord Jacob Rothchild. The planting of a flag under the North Pole is the perfect foil for Western aspirations.

Russian might have been starving, but Britain and Europe weren`t that far behind. This is the problem with history, its written by the winners. Is Londongrad the real centre of world power? Is Washington just "front of house"?

eF 07 August 2007 at 18:37

To Carl Jones,

I am not so keen in details of global policy and spy wars between Russia and UK/USA/EU, but your phrase that history is written by winners is extremely right.

Yes, in its methods of the influence and power spread Russia is now like innocent child against the background of some other nations who pretend to global leadership, but, returning back to the article, there’s no difference how it is called fascism, communism or democracy, if it leads to deaths and torture of weaker countries and nations. Big nations seem to have only common ideology: goals excuse methods. And they write history at the end.

Hitler was the most frank of the global ’pretenders’– he openly named his criminal intentions. If he did his crimes like Soviet Union in 30’s concealing with communist paradise or USA now covering with democracy and freedom, we would now here disputing in forum if Hitler was a benefactor.

So, many people and I also care about the world power location and application only with respect to the degree of harm it can do to those who not able for symmetric reply.

Haydamak
13 August 2007 at 07:09

Russia has always had it's "useful idiots" in its own country as well as the west who profess their undying willigness to stand up and defend her the minute logical truths about her are made public. Thgey will go any length to debunk them, even to the use of childish drival to make accurate reports sound like fairy tale. But the fact remains that Russia will use any means possible to extend her existence and control over formerly conquererd satillites whether they are from the long past Tsarist time or from the more contemporary Soviet epoch. If it means adopting a new approach or even a "moldy oldy" one such as Nazi/Nashi Fascism or very deliberately creating a "Tsar Vladimir Putin the Short" personality cult to send the patriotic people into a frenzyt these aparatchiks or provocatuers will stop at nothing to attain their goals; bullying everyone else around. Xenophobia and discrimination has been use by the Muscovites since time immemorial. The Russians want their empire back. Furthermore if the world wants the Russkies to apologize for the 1932-33 artificial famine Iin Ukraine it has to respond with political, economic embargos to and from Russia as well as with definitely required AK47 automatic rifle to the head of Tsar Putin to convice the powers that be that we are serious.

Manuel
13 August 2007 at 23:17

There is a video of grizzly beheading of north Caucasian captive by members of National Socialist party of Russia. The other captive, Tajik, is shot point blank. The video was circulating on Internet, until Russian law enforcers learned about it from Gazeta.ru. Allegedly, they were killed for being “colonists.” Probably perpetrators will never be found. Today’s Nashi, fascists and skinheads are tomorrow’s electorate in Russia. They will bring their own to power. Putin is just the beginning, the worst is ahead.

chiragu
16 August 2007 at 10:23

Dear Mr. Manuel, most part of replies on this article clearly show the abhorrence of russian readers on this type of crude propaganda. Are you want to continue author's article with your pioneering? Official investigation are started and we can hope that murderers or falsification producers would captured and accused. But what purpose are you pursue? If you want to accuse russians of nazism, you are mistaken very much: Russia has none official registered nazi or fascist political party unlike UK. All of them are categorical forbidden at Russia. Dear british, look at yourself, please. There are no russians at BNP. Furthermore, Russia is one of few states where your muzzle can be immediately kicked then you pin a swastika on.

BNP is more mass than "Nashi" and its programme is more aggressive...

http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/bnp1.html

http://www.bnp.org.uk/

And another question: in which connection are Putin here? Yours idle talk about connection between Putin and crimes like this, looks like my allegation about connection between Mr. T.Blair and Ipswich serial murders. Please, think about this.

As far as is known for me, "Nashi" is internationalist union and they are real power that can stop skinheads and neo-fascists. I do not like official unions through my habit since USSR, but this union is a better instrument to make some part of russian youth busy. More better than idle loafing, gangsterism or drug addiction.

Good luck, paid propagandist amateurs! You are really need.

IrynaLviv
16 August 2007 at 12:14

2 chiragu

You wrote "...most part of replies on this article clearly show the abhorrence of russian readers on this type of crude propaganda" Come on! You had mean in fact "...show the abhorrence of russian readers on written facts and true about situation in Russia"? YES. I agree, then.

"Russia has none official registered nazi or fascist political party unlike UK"?

But Russia has REAL nazi movement, and its members who kill REAL FOREIGNERS (Vietnam, Tajuk, Caucasian people etc etc etc, INCLUDING CHILDREN)! Yes, unlike UK...

"propagandist amateurs" ? Hmmm... I would rather say, you are not amateur!

chiragu
16 August 2007 at 14:23

I need to be honest and must agree, isolated instances of foreigners attack still exists, especially at large cities like Moscow, St. Petersbourg etc. Hostility at foreigner persons exists too, especially among low strata of society. I can't disclaim those problems. But what nation can brag about that it has none idlers, gangsters, and simply morons? Why author are trying to accuse all russians and in which connection are Putin here? Are author know how this case looked before Putin?

And another question: what are you doing here, dear Iryna? Are this discussion about nice city Lvov, where i have been 5 years ago? This is very good city, but ukraine nationalists are spoils it so much. Burning of Pushkin's munument and Region party's office and other pogroms is the very easy of their deeds, are they? NEWSTATESMAN did not wrote about this... What about accusing all ukrainians of nazism? Why are you talking here about russian problems having absolutely identical own? :)

jeff.mowatt
07 December 2007 at 12:02

I offer a comment from the articles of Malcolm Muggeridge, who filed reports on the Ukraine famine in the Manchester Guardian in 1933. He found antipathy in the persons of Sidney and Beatrice Webb , founders of the New Statesman, to whom he was related by marriage:

"The conundrum that continued to occupy my mind - still does for that matter - was how it came about that some of the most famous and highly esteemed intellectuals or our time, in observing and assessing the Soviet regime, should have displayed a credulity and fatuity that would be surprising in any half-wit or bemused Marxist. Thus, for instance, Bernard Shaw, expressing satisfaction that the Soviet Government balanced its budgets, and that the people of the Baltic States should have voted freely and overwhelmingly for incorporation into the USSR.

Or the venerable Dean of Canterbury, Dr Hewlett Johnson, in spite of the anti-God museums and propaganda, and the persecution of Christian believers, going on proclaiming in the pulpit that Stalin was building the Kingdom of Christ. Or Beatrice Webb, somewhat troubled by my Guardian articles, going to Mr Maisky, the Soviet Ambassador in London, to be put right. It was Mr Maisky, too, Beatrice Webb told me, with great satisfaction, who had been kind enough to go through the galleys of the book - Soviet Communism: A New Civilisation? - she and Sidney had written about the Soviet regime to ensure that they had made no mistakes."

Egor
28 December 2007 at 11:19

Hm... found a reference and decided to answer the questions in case any of the people who referred to me did the same.:)

02 August 2007

Egor,

Murder of people is an awfull crime, and murder by national belonging is a double crime.

In line with your post I just have a question to you and

Frankly, I still do not consider this as a problem of relations between nations since, while I am traveling a lot I have never met people (apart from 1 idiot in Tallinn and a couple of drunk Poles who were anyway nearly out of their senses – so I helped them:)) who did not like me because I was Russian. But I see this as a big problem in relations between the states since the nationalistic elites of the former Soviet Union republics are quite clearly trying to build their new national identity on the anti-Russian or even nationalistic myths. I am thinking first of all about Ukraine where recently a block who used to serve in the SS troops and, in particular, massacred over 2000 Jews in Lviv (yes, where IrinaLviv is from) recently became the Hero of Ukraine (the highest, as I understand, award of Ukraine, ironically copied from the Hero of the Soviet Union). And, I fear, the younger generations will be (already are!) brainwashed with this nationalistic propaganda.

IrynaLviv

01 August 2007

You wrote "And there is no doubt that this murder was a response of the local (or Chechen) terrorists".

Oh, no, these were the Indian Sikh terrorists.

Irina, I do not believe that you are THAT silly.

By the way, since the time I wrote my previous message, two more families were massacred and several terrorists arrested or killed. Was it reported somewhere in the West? I bet, NO.

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About the writer

Gavin Knight has written for the Guardian, Evening Standard, Monocle, Newsweek, Esquire and the Times. He also has appeared on CNN, Sky, BBC, ITN and CNBC news talking about Russian and Ukrainian geopolitics. He lived in Odessa and writes a column for BBC Russia on Russian life