California's Mormons split over gay vote

62 comments from readers

sirald66
29 October 2008 at 13:32

MormonsForMarriage.com is a very well organized site and open forum. A good place to see one side of the issue.

MikeNYC
29 October 2008 at 14:20

The Mormons are getting in politics which will only do them harm. People are suspicious of them to start with and now when they see them trying to control the outcome of a ballot, there is going to be a big backlash against them. Most people haven't forgotten about the polygamy which was practiced years ago and still is practiced by some sects. People haven't forgotten about the Mountain Meadows Massacre where innocent people were murdered by Mormons. If they had stayed in UTAH no one would have minded but now they are venturing into other states and trying to impose their religious views over other Christian denominations by supporting proposition 8. Romney lost out because he was Mormon and now the real backlash will start.

Anon
29 October 2008 at 15:12

As an LDS man currently serving in a Stake Presidency, I am aware of more than a handful of gentlemen in leadership positions who have difficulties with the Church's position on Prop 8. I hope they will follow Bishop Bennion's example and STAND UP AND BE COUNTED.

Anon
29 October 2008 at 15:16

And tawillin wastes no time at all with a fallacious appeal to reductio ad Nazium. Well played.

MikeNYC
29 October 2008 at 15:31

tawillin, regardless of Anon's silly comment, the fact of the matter is it doesn't take much for the public to turn on a group. Gays seem to be the last scape goat. When they achieve the legal rights they want, someone else will have to assume the roll of scape goat. Logic seems to fail both of you, but history reveals the truth.

toddwayne
29 October 2008 at 15:59

MikeNYC - It is funny that so many people are singling out the Mormon faith when there are so many more organizations involved in this ballot. It is also very ironic that you bring up the fact of the Mormon Mountain Massacre but fail to mention the facts behind this unfortunate event. Yes it was members of the Mormon faith but they weren’t acting upon the direction of church leadership or on their own belief. If people are to take this approach then the German nation should be blamed for the holocaust, Muslim nation and religion for many travesties against the world, and finally the United Stated nation or people for terrible acts against American Indian culture, blacks, and yes the Mormon faith. Members of the Mormon faith had endured persecution, rape, murder, and intolerance at the hands of citizens of this great nation. They were truly being denied their rights and were driven out of every state that they settled in the 1800’s

You are slinging mud and getting nothing accomplished with the exception of spreading half truths and hatred among fellow American’s.

toddwayne
29 October 2008 at 16:00

MikeNYC - Why are you and so many people singling out the Mormon faith when there are so many more organizations involved in this ballot. It is also very ironic that you bring up the fact of the Mormon Mountain Massacre but fail to mention the facts behind this unfortunate event. Yes it was members of the Mormon faith but they weren’t acting upon the direction of church leadership or on their own belief. If people are to take this approach then the German nation should be blamed for the holocaust, Muslim nation and religion for many travesties against the world, and finally the United Stated nation or people for terrible acts against American Indian culture, blacks, and yes the Mormon faith. Members of the Mormon faith had endured persecution, rape, murder, and intolerance at the hands of citizens of this great nation. They were truly being denied their rights and were driven out of every state that they settled in the 1800’s

You are slinging mud and getting nothing accomplished with the exception of spreading half truths and hatred among fellow American’s.

toddwayne
29 October 2008 at 16:01

MikeNYC- continuation of my comments

As for the Mormon faith and their decision to take a stance upon this proposition what is the bid deal? Really! They are within their rights to take a stand upon issues like this and shouldn’t be in fear of retaliation by those that oppose their view. Wasn’t this nation founded upon the fact that EVERYONE has the right to be heard? Or is it the intent of to make this proposition into something that will bring more hatred into this world??

I would also like to point out that just because someone has an opposing view or supports Prop 8 it doesn’t make them a bigot! Which they are currently being portrayed. Webster’s Dictionary defines a bigot as “: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially: one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance”. Yes I understand there is opposing opinions on this issue and each side has the right to their opinions! I have yet to see the Christian’s faiths acting in a way that is showing hatred toward those that oppose the proposition. However their have been many cases of were gay men have been beaten and even killed because they were gay. No one should be persecuted for their belief and anyone that takes this road is a bigot and worse.

In comparison the media has captured some cases of those that oppose this proposition that are acting more like bigot’s (not that I am calling them bigot’s) but wasn’t it someone that opposed Prop 8 that used their SUV along with inflammatory slogans to denounce and more importantly show hatred toward a family in San Jose. This is an example of bigotry not someone that opposes your views as it pertains to marriage.

Dan4Equality
29 October 2008 at 16:02

It is very important that different groups with different

ideals and religious beliefs are able to coexist

peacefully. I am a gay person, and I have different

beliefs than Mormon's but I've never wished to take

their rights away. My church supports gay marriage,

so it is actually part of my religious freedom to have

gay marriage recognized, just as it is part of Mormons'

freedom to not recognize gay marriages. These two

things should be able to coexist in CA. To make the

law conform to one religious belief at the exclusion of

the other is simply not fair.

I think it is not right for Mormon's to spend so much

time and energy taking away my marriage and trying

to oppress me and my husband. What an intrusion

into our lives.

At the end of the day, if Prop 8 were to fail, Mormon's

go home they are still married and still Mormon. If

Prop 8 succeeds, things are not so good for gay and

lesbian people in CA.

California is a wonderful place that has promised

equal protection to all of its citizens. It is a shame that

anyone would want to take that away.

toddwayne
29 October 2008 at 16:07

MikeNYC- What do you mean by "Gays seem to be the last scape goat" for what? Sorry to disappoint you but the Mormon faith has made it clear for over 160 years on moral issues like this. So how are they using this issue or gays as you put it as a scape goat. Once again for what?

Dan4Equality
29 October 2008 at 16:19

A gay man was beaten in Torrance yesterday.

Charges are being filed.

To say that Proposition 8 is not hateful because the

proponents do not beat anyone up or say hateful

things is not necessarily right. As the argument for

Prop 8 moves into the direct issue of why people care

so much about an issue that does not affect them

directly, the argument turns to new rationales - about

how gay people do not need to be gay, about how we

could just be straight if we wanted to, about how gay

people are against the will of God, about how CA has

to be redeemed from the homosexuals, about how we

are destroying our children's lives, about how we

should be happy with the second-class institution of

domestic partnership. All of these rationales point to a

clear disregard for the dignity and respect that LGBT

people deserve - as human beings. It is clear in these

arguments that the proponents of Prop 8 will not be

content when Prop 8 passes and be done with it. They

will not be done until all gay people can be convinced

to be straight, or until we have no right to parent our

children, until we have no legal right to equality under

the law.

Now the proponents of 8 may say that it is out of love

that they do not respect our homosexuality, but we gay

people know that when people do not respect our

homosexuality it does lead to discrimination, violence

and ultimately death. We have been down this road

many times in many different places. Look at other

countries where homosexuality is not officially

tolerated. People are still being executed around the

world for being gay. We as gay people are keenly

aware of this.

Why would any religion want to advance our country

toward intolerance of anyone? It never amounts to any

good.

Dan4Equality
29 October 2008 at 16:25

Gays are being used as a scapegoat for the

destruction of the family. If heterosexual people have

trouble with their kids too much nowadays, or if they

divorce too much, or if there is too much teen

pregnancy, or if people decide not to get married,

whose fault is it?

It's the gays. Can't be the heterosexuals who are

actually participating in those straight families.

Why else are Prop 8 supporters using the happy

family logo and saying that families need to be

defended from gay people? I have taken this to mean

they are scapegoating us - I certainly didn't think it was

literal.

If it's literal, then it's even more silly. How does a

straight marriage need defending from a gay one? I

live next door to straight married couples and we had

a gay marriage right in our yard. With all of that gay

action right in the neighborhood there was no

collateral damage.

ShelyGirl
29 October 2008 at 16:27

MikeNYC your post is so idiotic. Mormons can be involved in politics, they pay taxes. For the record, the largest donation came from the Catholic church. However, individuals collectively came from the LDS church. Backlash? Only from your types who have been rediculing the Mormons for centuries and it hasn't stopped them yet. Polygamy? Wrong church. It's the FLDS. Mormons excommunicate polygamists and stopped in 1890. Get educated please. Massacre? A HANDFUL of Mormons committed this crime. Are you telling me other people of faith haven't committed crimes down through history? You want Mormons to say in Utah? Too late. 51% of the members are already outside of the state. You sound like the president from Iran. You are also a religious bigot with your comment about Romney. Rethink your logic, and come back with ideas that are consistent with this great country we live in.

robert merrill
29 October 2008 at 16:37

@MikeNYC Um, who says the Mormons WANT public opinion on their side? That's not why Churches are formed, my friend.

Also, you will recall that popular opinion has haunted the Mormons everywhere they've ever been. Their founder and his brother were murdered, they were driven from the United States, and until the 1970's it was legal in Missouri to kill Mormons.

I would encourage you to strongly challenge any religion that bases its doctrine on public opinion. That changes more rapidly than Sarah Palin's wardrobe.

rtu
29 October 2008 at 17:10

Robert Merrill-

If the LDS Church wasn't interested in public opinion then they wouldn't retain a pricey PR firm Edelman Public Relations, have let blacks into the priesthood, revamped their temple rituals to make them more "socially acceptable," or, perhaps, even abandoned polygamy in the first place...after all, converts have to come from SOMEWHERE...

Dan4Equality
29 October 2008 at 17:13

FreedomLand: "it is not good enough for them to be

accepted these days as a kind of fringe group - they

want to be mainstream."

We don't care if we're fringe or mainstream. We just

want to be equal under the law - which we are entitled

to under the laws of California.

"they are perfectly able ot have some kind of

'marriage' if they wish but not in the conventional

sense". In other words, we are able to have "separate"

and unequal institutions: domestic partnership or civil

unions. Gay people are not second class citizens, and

we don't deserve to be separate and unequal. We

deserve full equality, as do all Americans.

It's true nothing gives us the right to take over

churches. Churches will continue to be run by their

members or their leadership as it may be. That doesn't

mean that individual churches will not change and

struggle according to changes within their own

church, this happens. Gay people have a dog in this

race too - we have gay-supportive churches, and we

don't want anyone telling our churches what to do.

On the subject of straight young people being

confused into being gay. Could a straight person

really be confused into being gay? For how long?

Wouldn't your sexuality come into play and show you

the light? I know as a gay person, I was confused and

thought I was straight, because everyone told me I

was every day everywhere, but in the end, my

sexuality told me otherwise and there was no arguing

with it. The same is true for straight people, if confused

at all, they will sort it out soon enough, and they will

have their faith and family to guide them.

As for gay Mormons - and I've met some, who stay in

the church and are quiet, or who are formally

excommunicated. Isn't it better for them to know that if

they can't help being gay, and should they face

excommunication, that at least there is someplace

they can live in peace and love? Or should they just

give up hope altogether, as some teens do, very

sadly, for everyone involved.

gnuneo
29 October 2008 at 17:55

"Most people haven't forgotten about the polygamy which was practiced years ago and still is practiced by some sects. "

and so bloody what? Once again no doubt you will quote from your own 'Holy Book' and claim that this is "against the Will of Gawd" - as your priesthoods have defined it. Or do you think there is any secular argument over allowing free, open-minded adults from forming any damned union they so damn please?

get off your high-horse, and realise in the modern world it is not what was written by priests centuries or millennia ago that matters, but by what the People of a Secular Nation want the chance to try.

"If they had stayed in UTAH no one would have minded but now they are venturing into other states and trying to impose their religious views over other Christian denominations by supporting proposition 8."

if the Religious Bigots in the US had not violently "ventured" into Utah to end the "sin" of polygamy, i might have more concern with such worries. And the Catholics and fundie proddies are quite clearly far far worse - see how few fundie proddy churches openly split over this issue. Kudos to the Mormons for having the courage of their personal convictions left open to them, rather than the totalitarian unity demanded by other churches.

its a pity they have pushed it at all - but its worthy of respect the individual members are standing up for what's RIGHT against the leadership.

toddwayne
29 October 2008 at 17:57

Dan4Equality- It is unfortunate about the gay man that was beaten in Torrance yesterday. I am not trying to minimize that incident but it shouldn’t have a direct correlation with Proposition 8. Regardless of the outcome on proposition 8 this type of behavior will still occur. Yes unfortunate and wrong.

It doesn’t take much for a person today to explode and take their frustration out on others. Look at the school shootings. Does that mean we need to disarm every American? No. It is a matter of proper education. You alluded to the fact that if it isn’t passed that the social outlook on the gay community could diminish to portray you as freaks (my terminology yes– don’t take offense) but I don’t see it happening. In all honesty it is my opinion that most Christians would like to leave this issue alone and allow every person to live their life as they see fit, but in a way we are being pushed into it. If this proposition isn’t passed then Education platform in California will be changed to include homosexual marriage. At this point your views of sexual orientation will be forced upon our children leaving us with no options. Recently I read a story about a couple (one a school teacher) that had the permission of the school to take the children in her class on a field trip to witness this couple’s marriage. This is wrong and should have never occurred it was on tax payer’s dime to further exploit the issue.

FreedomLand
29 October 2008 at 18:55

Dan4Equality - 29 Oct:17:13.....

Well, that's great, Dan4Equality, and I would like to respond - but I am not going to since my post has been thoughtlessly DELETED. So much for freedom of speech - I presume that this topic is being run by gays for gays - and that no dissenting comments are wanted.

winecountrygirl
29 October 2008 at 19:21

Let's see....the Mormon Church was AGAINST Civil Rights for African Americans, AGAINST the ERA, giving rights to women and now they are AGAINST equality for Gay men and women. The only surprise here is... THERE IS NO SURPRISE! The Mormon Church is against Equal Rights.

steveleong
29 October 2008 at 19:51

Here is a chance for ALL of us to practice "Christianity"! All this wasted money being put into stopping two people, born differently, from sharing equal rights with others...What would Jesus say. So if Proposition 8 passes...will God smile on those responsible, and say I love you more? I THINK NOT! THIS IS A GOOD TEST ON HOW ONE WOULD TREAT THEIR NEIGHBOR AS THEY WOULD LIKE TO BE TREATED THEMSELVES! IN THE END, IT WILL ALWAYS BE THE SAME, "WHAT ONE SOWS, SO SHALL THEY REAP!".

WORK TOGETHER, BOTH GAYS AND STRAIGHTS -HEAL THE WORLD!

Steve Leong

Hawaii

gnuneo
29 October 2008 at 20:21

"Recently I read a story about a couple (one a school teacher) that had the permission of the school to take the children in her class on a field trip to witness this couple’s marriage. This is wrong and should have never occurred it was on tax payer’s dime to further exploit the issue."

and would you be opposed if it was to a heterosexual marriage? How about a heterosexual marriage in a different religion, say Hindu, Moslem, pagan? Would that also have been a waste of money?

is it only your own faith, your own beliefs about 'right and wrong', your own take on Human Rights, that children should learn about?

homosexual marriage (and LGBT rights in general) do not harm ANYONE else, unless it is bigots who delight in 'putting others down' because they are different. Frankly, that kind of "harm" we actually need more of.

and no, i am not gay myself, i just feel strongly that we are ALL equal, and we as a species and culture should practice more of the compassion and humility that a certain person preached so many hundreds of years ago.

Weaver
29 October 2008 at 21:04

My own religious group, Pacific Yearly Meeting of the Religious Society of Friends (The Quakers), decided to oppose Prop 8 this past August. As a group we're not raising huge amounts of money, nor are we picketing.

While our church opted to recognize and take same gender marriages under our care 12 years ago, we recognize that not all church bodies have come to this decision. Our decision to oppose Prop 8 is based on our testimony of equality.

The California State Constitution, IF its amended, will affect same gender couples in obtaining CIVIL marriage, along with all the rights, responsibilities and benefits that come with it. It will NOT have any affect on what any particular church chooses to recognize and bless. It will not require any particular church to take a same gender union under their care, if that union is against that church's doctrine.

In a country where we supposedly have separation of church and state, I'm sadly disappointed to see the push being put forward by the Mormon and Catholic churches to sway opinions and votes against any minority group's civil rights. It's discriminatory.

And its wrong.

Further in a country where both these groups are themselves in the minority, it saddens me even more to see them foisting their personal convictions onto the lives of others, who aren't part of their religious communities. I'm neither a Mormon nor a Catholic; why should either church have a say in whom I choose to marry?

We have seen what religious intolerance can do within a society, as evidenced by 400 years of sectarian violence in Ireland, not to mention how many generations of strife between Muslims and Jews, Muslims and Hindus, Christians and Jews, Sunnis and Shia; the list goes on.

It's this Quaker's prayer, that we find next Wednesday morning, that Californians have voted for tolerance.

GNM
29 October 2008 at 21:18

Bishop Bennion, I commend you. I am an active Mormon, and am trying to balance my opposition to the church's stand on this issue with my church membership. It is heartbreaking. I love my gay brothers and sisters and support them in the ballot box.

gnuneo
29 October 2008 at 21:28

Weaver: Amen.

standfortruth
29 October 2008 at 23:26

Danforequality:

You said: California is a wonderful place that has promised equal protection to all of its citizens. It is a shame that anyone would want to take that away.

But gays already have equal protection/equal rights under California's law & that can't be taken away from you. Passing prop 8 won't change that. If same-sex marriages are accepted in more & more states, then gays will push & push as most do, so that religious institutions will have to marry them also & if they don't, gays will claim discrimination. So if it's made law that all religions have to marry you too then our religious rights will have been stripped away & we'll be forced to accept what we feel is wrong/immoral.

jeff hoyt
30 October 2008 at 00:26

Anon;

I suspect you are a liar. In any event, it is pretty funny that you are asking others in Church leadership to "stand up and be counted" but you will not post your name. You a coward or a liar or both.

Jeff Hoyt

gnuneo
30 October 2008 at 01:42

standfortruth. That is correct. Therefore you should advise Mormon Brothers or Sisters who wish to be openly gay to join the Quakers as a Brother or Sister.

theirs is a better church, that accepts more of God's People as they are, they have earned a Greater Right than the LDS.

if you wish to discriminate on what you accept are moral reasons, you must accept that others may not agree with you, and you have the moral obligation and Christian Duty to help them find others who can love and fully accept them as equals, as they are. You can forgive yourself, because you have not harmed them except in your thoughts and feelings (by finding their full equality to you unacceptable and immoral), but you can make amends for that by helping them to another - supportive of their status and choices - organisation. And when that Church is of such high Christian quality as the Quakers, possibly the closest to the original Ideal of Christianity, well the support for Prop 8 by the leadership can be seen as an opportunity.

Love moves in mysterious ways. And bigotry carries its own penalty.

ShelyGirl
30 October 2008 at 02:51

Take your blinders off!! It's not about restricting gays, it's about redefining marriage.

If it passes, yes, we will live with it, but the backlash will be against the gay community. We will work even harder to make sure this "lifestyle" we call "sin" is not promoted in our lives. We will actually have more animosity towards gays that try to teach our children anything to the contrary. When I say "we", I'm not talking about the Mormons.

akno1
30 October 2008 at 04:54

SigningForSomething.org is another site where the voices of Mormons who disagree with the stance their church has taken can speak out.

steve123
30 October 2008 at 06:02

Tolerance is a two-way street. We all have an equal right to our own opinion without being insulted for it.

BrooklynMike
30 October 2008 at 17:19

Wow--just imagine if the $22.8 million were dedicated to marriage counseling and therapy, or to family retreats aimed at restorative and healing work for broken and dysfunctional families. If we REALLY are interested in "measures designed to strengthen and maintain the family," why don't we pour millions of dollars into strengthening and healing the families that ALREADY exist? I have to scratch my head and wonder how many of those angry men screaming "Yes on Prop 8" are going to end up divorced from their wife in 5 years. The statistics aren't in their favor.

JJ
30 October 2008 at 21:07

I'm a bit surprized at the vitriol towards Mormons by

those opposing Prop 8. On the one hand, its bigotry

for Mormon's to support gay marriage, but no one

seems to be bothered by other churchs' stands for it.

On one hand, its bigotry to oppose gay marriage, but

perfectly fine to charge mormons as evil for having

practiced plural marriage (as did Abraham, Isaac,

and Jacob) over 100 years ago. On the one hand its

perfectly fine for a New Yorker to say mormons

should be confined to Utah (obviously not

understanding Mormonism was founded in NY, but

the Mormons were driven out because of

intolerance), but somehow intolerant to defend

traditional marriage.

I have come to support Prop 8 not because I have

anomousity towards Gays. Rather, because of the

following:

-Studies show children are better off being raised by

their biological father and mother

-Court rulings against the will of the people are

destroying our democracy

-I fear those who disagree with the gay agenda will

be branded "bigots", their free speech and free

practice of religion will be denied, and government

will take an active role in promoting that which I do

not believe

The posts against mormons shows there is not

tolerance among many in the "No on 8" side and that

they will impose their views on others.

gnuneo
31 October 2008 at 00:02

"-Studies show children are better off being raised by their biological father and mother "

studies show that children are better off raised by loving parents, having a biological connection does not instantly transfer that love, contrary to what right-wing ideologues would like to claim. And it is more beneficial to have two loving parents even of the same sex, than two hetero parents who abuse the child. There is absolutely NOTHING magical about genetic links, or hetero couples that makes them better parents.

"Take your blinders off!! It's not about restricting gays, it's about redefining marriage."

and that "redefinition" happened also when preventing inter-racial marriage was made unconstitutional as well. The current definition (as used by the less Christian churches) restricts gays from marrying. So how exactly is this not about "restricting gays"?

"-Court rulings against the will of the people are destroying our democracy "

your Constitution proclaims "Equal rights for all", and the Courts are constitutionally bound to follow that. Democracy does NOT mean "tyranny of the majority", no matter if that is oft how it is portrayed popularly. What *really* destroys Democracy? Denying equal rights to each other, based upon minority weakness. Would the people who oppose this like it if the tables were turned, and ONLY homosexual marriage was legitimized? The uproar! The horror! The scandal!

but its apparently OK to remove the same right from others, because they are in a minority.

i wonder how some of you sleep well at night.

hthalljr
31 October 2008 at 01:13

I am astonished at the hatred directed against Mormons in this campaign. The Daily Kos calls for using “any legal tool at your disposal” to retaliate against Mormons (http://tinyurl.com/5mpkpc) and provides a link to a list of individual Mormon donors. Sfgate.com publishes a post suggesting that Mormons be shot “so that they don't try to attack again and take more of your rights away.” (http://tinyurl.com/5amalp, 10/26/2008, 3:21:10 PM).

By contrast, read the official declared intent of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints toward homosexuals:

"The Church’s opposition to same-sex marriage neither constitutes nor condones any kind of hostility towards homosexual men and women. Protecting marriage between a man and a woman does not affect Church members’ Christian obligations of love, kindness and humanity toward all people. "

(From the official position paper of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints on Proposition 8, at http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/commentary/the-divin....)

I do believe that the leaders of my church are inspired on this issue. But apart from my deeply-held religious beliefs, I apply the simple secular ethics of Immanuel Kant, commonly expressed as “What if everyone did it?”

Kant illustrates with an example that would have saved us from our present credit crisis: Suppose a person borrows money without intending to repay the loan. If everyone did it, no person would lend money anymore, and commerce would come to an end. Therefore borrowing without intent to repay is immoral.

Now apply Kant's ethics to the question at hand. If everyone entered into same-sex marriage, the human race would come to an end. Therefore homosexual marriage is immoral.

Tracy Hall Jr

hthalljr'gmail'com

gnuneo
31 October 2008 at 02:57

hthalljr: you are right, and as others have pointed out, why has there not been the same level of hostility towards the fundie proddies and the catholics?

its certainly possible there is some hidden bigotry there too.

however, as for your "what if everyone did it" remark - sorry, but that is silly. Does it also apply to those who choose not to have children, perhaps those who enter Religious service? What if everyone did THAT?

no more children?

obviously then entering childless Religious service should be made illegal, as it is immoral.

or what if everyone wanted to become doctors? No more teachers, nurses, civil engineers, bankers*?

surely such a society would be immoral as well, therefore no-one should be allowed to be doctors.

perhaps i am missing some essential point made by Kant here, but without it, your argument there looks rather hollow. Can you explain further?

*OK, i can see the benefit of that last one...

emeraLDS
31 October 2008 at 06:07

I am a member of the LDS faith and also have a sister who is gay. She and her wife are an awesome couple whom I adore. I don't beleive that just because the couple is heterosexual that they are protecting the sanctity of marriage. Heterosexul couples still beat and cheat on each other and lie to each other. I'd rather support a same sex couple who love and respect each other and their vows than a heterosexual couple who give no second thought to their vows and lie, cheat and beat each other.

emeraLDS
31 October 2008 at 06:18

To MikeNYC- I find it ironic that you are posting comments against the LDS faith and how they are discriminating against gays. Your comments about how we should have stayed in Utah and not forced our views on anyone are so hypocritical. If I were to get on here and say the same thing you said, only omiting the LDS faith and placing the word Gays instead, I bet your head would spin so fast and you couldn't wait to rip into me. So before you go singling out the mormons, take a step back and look at what you're advocating and then swallow your own medicine before pointing the finger. I happen to be a faithful LDS member and I love and support my gay sister and her wife. Also, the mormons didn't create the proposition against gay marriage, some support it some don't. don't sterotype all mormons, when you do that to any group it totally discredits any point you're trying to make. One added thing, read a neutral source on the Mt Meadow's massacre and you'll find out that your take on it is totally bogus.

FreedomLand
31 October 2008 at 18:56

The Mormons are not alone - Queen angers gay groups - "THE Queen of Spain has drawn criticism after she was quoted as condemning gay marriage, gay pride marches and abortion in an upcoming biography.....

"If these people want to live together, dress as grooms and get married, they might have the right to do so or not, depending on the laws of their countries. But they shouldn't call it marriage, because it isn't," Queen Sofia was quoted as saying..." http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24584913-...

kimwith
31 October 2008 at 19:05

I have yet to see anyone address what I see as a huge hypocritical viewpoint from the Mormon Church. Why are the Mormons siding with people who want to define marriage as "between ONE man and ONE woman"? I know that officially polygamy is not practiced by the LDS anymore, yet there is a Mormon family a few houses from mine with two wives. And we all know polygamy is practiced by Mormon people everywhere. Why on earth would Mormons, who have been persecuted for their "non-traditional" marriages, try to keep marriage rights from anyone?

Kim
02 November 2008 at 04:15

I find a few things very interesting about this string of

comments. First of all I see a lot more hatred towards

Mormons than anything else. I also find it kind of

strange that the statement was said that the Mormons

should go back to Utah, but from my California history

classes in school, I happen to know that Mormons

helped settle and build up San Francisco and that

many streets were named after them. From the history

studies I have read, I am sure they were here before

many of your ancestors.

I think we all have to learn how to get along and show

kindness. I happen to support proposition 8. I am

afraid to put a sign up in my yard because of the

hatred of people against homes with these signs. I find

it interesting that the for 8 signs get torn up – yet the

against signs seem to stand un harmed. At least that is

the way it is in my area. In fact there are two signs

standing side by side. For for 8 sign is torn up, yet the

against 8 sign is untouched. If I put this sign up people

assume that I am against gay marriage. This is not

about them, but about those who want to preserve

marriage. I believe that marriage has a definition that

needs to be preserved. The gays should have their

equal rights, but call it something else. When I grew

up when we were happy we called it “gay”. Now that

has a new meaning. Now we want to change another

word.

I am also concerned about the schools taking too

much control of what is taught to our kids. My daughter

was told 10 years ago in her “sex ed” class that

someday they will be able to tell them how this takes

place between same sex too. I felt like this was

crossing the line. There was a gay pride club in her

high school, yet when the students wanted to have a

group for heterosexuals they were told no. They

wanted to have dances where they didn’t have to

worry about hitting on someone to find out that they

were gay.

My heart goes out to gay people who have

experienced feelings of not being accepted.

Meso
02 November 2008 at 19:23

Shame on the Mormons.

For a religion to single out any minority in an effort to deny them equal parity with the rest of us, is unforgiveable. Remember, in recent history, a political regime in Germany also singled out certain minorities to whom equal rights were denied. Yes, it was the Nazis who singled out Jews, Gypsies, Slavs and homosexuals for their death camps. If Prop 8 were to win Tuesday, what would the proponents want next...mandatory clothing patches identifying our gay and lesbian neighbors similar to the Star of David that identified Jews in Nazi Germany? Last I heard, homosexuality was not a crime and the only citizens of this democracy who can be deprived of their rights are convicted felons.

Those Mormons, funding Prop 8, seem only too eager to see a Mormon Taliban system of government formulating ideas of morality for it's citizens. Is it again time to fight another Revolutionary War to prevent religion from making those inroads into our daily lives?

Open your eyes
03 November 2008 at 14:05

I was against prop 8 until the last post woke me up! I

did some research regarding what the yes on 8

people want. They not against gay people. I don’t

think a lot of people are listening. Also I see so much

hatred from the no side, that I can’t side with people

who behave like this. I discussed this proposition with

a gay coworker at work and he actually is for prop 8.

He feels that there are things in religion that need to

be preserved.

Just because the yes people don’t share your opinion

you assume they are bigots and trying to control you.

Perhaps you are trying to control them. Perhaps if we

followed their way the world would be a better place.

The no on prop 8 are an angry lot of people who are

trying to control other’s rights and beliefs. And just

because they do not believe as you, you make

judgments without researching what they are saying.

From what I see, this is not about Gay rights, but about

Christian rights.

The truth is that if prop 8 does not pass that sex ed

should not be taught in schools. The purpose of it

being taught is for procreation, and it will no longer be

necessary if this definition is not kept as between a

man and a woman.

People who bring up the divorce rate among marriage

are shooting themselves in their foot using this as an

argument. Then why would they want more people to

enter into marriage if it is such a bad thing that people

get divorced. Do they think that having gay people get

married is going to bring down the divorce rate? It will

only pack the courts more. Just because it may be a

same sex marriage does not mean it is any more or

less loving than a heterosexual marriage.

I believe that most of the no on 8 people don’t even

understand what the yes people are saying.

gnuneo
03 November 2008 at 15:45

i do. They are saying that a minority may have its rights taken away purely because it is a minority, and that this is wrong.

how can someone claim to be a Christian, yet deny to their neighbour or child the right to be married to the one they love, because they don't approve of the gender/race of the partner? Where is the Love in that, where is the spirit of acceptance and 'turning the other cheek' that is just about the only part of Jesus's message left in the NT?

This isn't about 'harming' Christians, this is about ending the harm that is already done to homosexuals, and nearly always justified on repressive, religious grounds, or "i find it icky, therefore i oppose it".

whether or not there is a great deal of anger coming from the NO voters, and also a lot of bigots using it as an excuse to batter the Mormons (who are clearly more liberal than the fundie Proddies/Catholics on this issue anyway), is entirely immaterial - the issue here is right and wrong, is it Just that a minority of consenting adults be denied the Right To Marriage because another larger minority wants to do so? Should inter-racial marriage also be banned again if enough bigots out there want to ban it? And is marriage no more than a social mechanism for producing babies?

no, no and no again. This is about respecting other people's Rights, this is about accepting others as they are, even if you personally find it 'icky', this is straightforwardly about Right and Wrong. Listen to your Conscience, not the hate-mongers and so-called 'religious authorities'.

Meso
03 November 2008 at 22:13

To: Open Your Eyes,

You say "it's not about gay rights but about Christian rights". Christian rights to do what? Force the rest of us to align ourselves with the Old Testament rantings of ancient desert tribes? Jesus Christ said not a word about homosexuals. His admonishment to us was to do unto others as we would have done unto us and to "do unto these, the least of they brethren as you would do unto me". Does that sound like he would want us to deny equal participation, in this democratic experiment, to our gay and lesbian brothers and sisters? I think not.

Open your eyes
04 November 2008 at 01:24

gnuneo - You are wrong! Totally wrong. It is not to take

away others rights. It is not even worth my trying to

explain because you won't listen and try to

understand. I see you as a wolf in sheep's clothing.

You portray yourself as a righteous person, but you

just want to bash Christians. Like I said, I don't mind

them having rights, but I want the definition to not

change. They can have their own initiative

recognizing them as a union.

I would go one step further. I don't want sex ed taught

in schools. I think this is better left to be taught at

home.

The Christian rights are that we don't have to have

people like Meso cramming their beliefs down our

throats each and every day.

I do agree that this has turned into a way to bash

Mormons, yet I have Mormon friends voting both ways.

All my catholic friends are voting Yes!

So Meso - I should go and rip out 12 no signs since

they ripped out 12 of my yes signs that I put out! That

is doing unto others - right......

I don't believe this will pass. But I think it is very sad

that so many just don't understand. And yes, you don't

understand. Get down on your knees and pray with

love in your heart. And you will understand. You don't

have to agree, just understand. Go out and vote your

heart tomorrow - I will still love you as my neighbor,

but you will still not love me for voting my heart. I find

that very bigoted in itself.

Open your eyes
04 November 2008 at 01:41

We are not even talking about gay rights by voting no

or yes. Read this:

"Will proposition 8 take away any rights for gay and

lesbian domestic parnters?

"No... Proposition 8 doesn't take away any rights or

benefits from gays or lesbians in domestic

partnerships. Under California law, “domestic partners

shall have the same rights, protections and benefits as

married spouses.” (Family Code 297.5.) There are no

exceptions. Proposition 8 will not change this."

(That means all rights and benefits ''including the right

to divorce and to sue for child support.'' MSNBC - May

15, 2008)

Meso
04 November 2008 at 20:19

Open your Eyes,

Homophobes are abundant in most all religions but you Mormons are certainly more vocal with it. Will you still insist on denying equal rights to your gay and lesbian neighbors after your prophet receives a revelation granting them parity (as he did with the Blacks)? That day will surely come if your church is to remain viable. An institution that relies on bigotry and hatred to maintain membership is a house of cards, indeed.

gnuneo
04 November 2008 at 20:42

open your eyes:"I see you as a wolf in sheep's clothing."

i am neither sheep nor wolf, "every man and every woman is a Star".

"You portray yourself as a righteous person, but you

just want to bash Christians."

and so Christians allow me to behave in a righteous manner, which also "bashes" them? Perhaps here then the flaw lies with those claiming identity with the followers of Jesus, those like yourself who deny humanity from others.

"Like I said, I don't mind them having rights,"

how very generous of you, i'm sure.

"They can have their own initiative recognizing them as a union. "

why not just call a spade a spade, and a marriage a marriage? Seems simpler. You are quite welcome to add the word "heterosexual" to YOUR marriage certificate if you feel the need to be reassured of your own sexuality.

"I don't want sex ed taught in schools. I think this is better left to be taught at home. "

and gee, i can just imagine the kind of advice you would give any gay child of yours. I can see the benefits of parents being more open, and taking more of the sex-ed burden upon themselves, i certainly can't see the benefit of leaving it all up to narrow minded bigots who get all their opinions from a bunch of long-dead Imperial Priests. The community has the Right to prevent such indoctrination and bigotry people like you want to program children with.

"But I think it is very sad that so many just don't understand. And yes, you don't understand. Get down on your knees and pray with love in your heart."

and that Love will show me the best way forward is to deny love to this minority, to deny them the Rights of every other person? Is that what Love is telling *you*? Do you think that would be true if *you* were gay, and you were prevented from marrying the person you Love? Do you think you could see the Love in such bigotry then?

have you ever asked yourself why you fear homosexuality so much? Surely it can't be just because they can't have children? What's wrong with you?

Meso
04 November 2008 at 23:28

It would behoove the good people of California to petition their U.S. congressmen and women to demand revisions in the IRS code that allows exemptions to questionable religions i.e., the Mormons, who continually abuse their IRS status by unabashed involvement in political issues like Prop 8. Unless they pay taxes on parishioner's tithes, they should be treated no differently than political action groups or private entities. Some may argue that it isn't the church's monies funding these issues but instead the dollars of individuals in that church. Yes, those millions in contributions have come from individuals because the leaders of that church are demanding donations from them and preaching from the pulpit that it's a commandment from God himself. That's the same God, who demanded the practice of polygamy and forbade Blacks from holding their priesthood in bygone years. Is it just a matter of time before He changes his mind on this one too?

gnuneo
05 November 2008 at 02:29

meso: read down.

http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2008/06/sex-marriage-ga...

Trist4go6
05 November 2008 at 07:11

Ahoy! These are the mormons that I know. It sickens

me the bad name LDS has been given due to its older

generation of freaks who are so bigoted their eyes

point backwards. As a confirmed Catholic, nothing

makes me feel better than those who are sane

enough to vote to back equal rights... even if their core

beliefs dictate against the rights they are backing. This

is not about religion, its about state law. And im glad

this many of those who are LDS see things that way,

and I hope we progress to the point where people will

understand that, because the Mormon church takes a

whole lotta crap from society especially those who are

gay. I vote NO on prop 8. By the way, those pamphlets

of Obama supporting 8 are reportedly fake.

FreedomLand
05 November 2008 at 22:02

My first post here was deleted because I didn't support the hypocritical "equal rights" views in question. Journalism is supposed to be ABOUT topics, not dictating policy - or sexuality, uhh.

Nevertheless, the gay "mainstream" agenda has been decisively quashed in California and elsewhere in the USA..... "SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - California and two other states voted in Tuesday's elections to ban same-sex marriage, dealing a blow to gays and lesbians in the left-leaning, trend-setting state months after they won their case in state court.

But in an indication of the complex cultural map drawn by the elections, voters also rejected limits on abortion in South Dakota and Colorado in a loss for social conservatives as the country elected its first black president, Barack Obama, a Democrat.

Tony Perkins, president of the conservative Family Research Council which worked for the passage of the anti-gay marriage measures, said the wins on same-sex marriage bans signaled Obama's mandate is for economic policy, "not one to implement a radical social policy."

"What lost last night was the Republican Party, but it was not a rejection of traditional or moral values, because you have two states that voted for Barack Obama -- Florida and California -- that also passed the marriage amendments," Perkins told Reuters in a telephone interview..." http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4A454K20081105

Just what DO you think you are going to do about it, NS? You have censored your readers/commenters opinions in the worst possible way. Now the truth has been brought home to all concerned. Better wake up to your own disgusting hypocrisies, irresponsible editorial behaviour, incompetence and stupidities, eh!

mueneeez
08 November 2008 at 19:34

Every ten days there is a teen suicide in Utah, Teen pregnancy is ranked 6Th in the nation in Utah. In Utah substance abuse is low, even though the first time I smoked pot when I was a kid was with the Bishops son of our local Mormon church. Why is this relevant or important...because in my opinion it represents a huge conformity issue. There is so much pressure to be accepted and follow along it is unbelievable. I saw this first hand growing up....and I feel so sorry for kids that grow up in communities that have large Mormon Populations. Mormons are not the only ones that deal with this..Jews and Scientologists also have this dilemma.

Mormons as a group especially in the public spere are very subject to right wing authoritarian control. The recent Mormon involvement in the anti-gay proposition in California is a perfect example and a red flag as to what can happen.

Mormons are taught to have a personal relationship with Jesus...as long as it falls within the guide lines of the church. Multi level marketing programs flourish within the Mormon church. Mormon Individually are generally great, awesome and trustworthy human beings. Collectively they become a mass of mindless followers spewing fear and hate conveniently cloaked in family values.

A prime example and poster child for what Mormons spew look no further than fear Monger Glen Beck.

Although the Mormon gang has its faults ...there are many very good things about the church...and they make adjustments when there proverbial arm is twisted, like Polygamy(the us government threatened by force) all of a sudden god told them to stop the practice he told them to initiate. Then the issue of racism and blacks holding the priesthood. Black fairly recently were not allowed to hold certain offices...because of the curse...the mark(blackness) Cain killed Able...or something!

As far as politics go I remember my friends fathers who happened to be devout Mormon praising

http://massmediacontrol.blogspot.com

God
08 November 2008 at 20:46

Kids, settle down. The Mormons are just like Christians everywhere; they have their own agenda. They have 'pretended' that the Prop 8 fight is about religious freedom, the definition of marriage, etc when in fact we all KNOW it's about Christian beliefs conflicting with homosexuality. OBVIOUSLY Mormon families won't 'decompose' should California gays retain the right to marry. OBVIOUSLY Mormon children won't go to school should gay marriage become legal and be greeted with a curriculum containing pro-gay materials. Christains don't support, condone, or like homosexuality. If conflicts with their beliefs. As Christians it would be nice if, at least, they were honest. I have yet to see a Pro-8 sign that says "No on Gay Marriage - we hate homosexualtity".

However, I can't blame the Mormons or Christians for this mess. Or the gays. I blame the lawmakers. The work 'marriage' should be removed from ALL government docs - the IRS, the state constitutions, the penal codes, everwhere. It should be replaced by something LEGAL like "civil partnership" or "legal cohabitors". Why? Because marriage IS a religious concept; it's something a Church does to bind two people within a particular belief structure. What the LAW does is allow people who choose to bind their financial and personal lives together to visit each other in the hospital, pass on their worldly posessions to the other after they die, file joint tax returns, and the like. If we really believe in separation of church and state (and the evangelicals and Mormons do NOT) then it's simple.

It seems a shame to deprive a group of taxpayers of the rights others have under the law just because of semantics...

God
08 November 2008 at 20:47

Even God makes typos. The "work marriage" should be "word marriage" in my prior post. Sorry.

MormonNoMore
09 November 2008 at 05:50

I know Bob Bennion. I was in his ward

before I left the church. He's a good

man. I am sorry he has been put in

such an uncomfortable position and

doesn't feel like he has the option to

say no to his church superiors. When

Prop 22 came up, I was the head of the

women's organization in my ward

(Relief Society). The same pressure

was put on me by my bishop (call the

sisters, get them to commit to phone

banking, donating money, etc.). I flat

out refused because I felt it was wrong

to use my elevated position to

influence members of our ward on a

political issue. I wish Bob felt he could

do the same. It's pathetic he has to

walk across the street to try and be

true to himself and yet not be

disobedient. I am no longer active, and

while I left with no bitterness or anger

towards the church (and maintained all

my close friendships with active

members), the church's heavy-handed

involvement in passing Prop 8 has left

me heart broken. I feel I need to be

true to my conscience, which compels

me to support equality for all. I feel so

strongly that Prop 8 is wrong for ALL

Californians. This country is not about

eliminating rights. We are about

expanding rights. But I just struggle

with the inability my LDS friends have

to see where the other side is coming

from. They are so outraged about

these protests at the temples. But the

fact that they cannot understand even

a little bit why these people are angry

and why the church is a scapegoat just

confounds me. The stakes are much

higher this time. The highest court in

the state granted them the

constitutional right to marry. And then

those rights were stripped away, and

their perception is that the Mormon

church had a very large role in that. I

don't agree with violence or vandalism

or bigotry of any kind. But if the tables

were turned, and a powerful group

marched into Utah and tried to pass

legislation that would eliminate their

rights, I don't think they'd take it laying

down.

Meso
11 November 2008 at 18:31

The wife of the CEO of Melaleuca Inc., Belinda Vandersloot donated $100,000 to Proposition 8. I've heard rumors that Melaleuca products may be boycotted as a response by disgruntled Californians.

l_politik
12 November 2008 at 10:36

This whole thing has turned into one big, steaming mess. I'm still very much at odds with the way the LDS Church handled Prop 8, and I believe that we, as a religion, will be hard-pressed to overcome the extremely negative press we've gotten in recent weeks.

Then I see the (extremely ignorant) comments here, and the interviews I've watched on television, and one extremely disturbing e-mail I received from a girl I haven't spoken with since high school calling all Mormons (myself included) "bigots," and I have trouble feeling anything but resentment for the "other side"...the side I supported. This is supposed to be about love, not hatred. I can't help but think that there is a ton of hypocrisy on both sides, and I'm deeply saddened by it.

It'll take a long time to right these wrongs. Right now, while everyone seems so content with blaming each other instead of actually focusing on fixing the problems, I don't see how we can ever hope to do it.

Oh, and Tom? You aged my dad up a bit too much. He's only 55.

-The one who "walked out"

unimportant
12 November 2008 at 17:53

I_politik, I agree wholeheartedly. This is an incredible disaster. I have read every single comment posted to this article, and it has been incredibly enlightening. I have worn myself to the bone having difficult conversations about this with my friends, gay & straight, religious & not religious, yes on 8 & no on 8 & apathetic... and the conclusion I have come to is that as a society, we do not have the tools to engage in dialogues appropriately.

We are raised to appreciate and celebrity individuality and diversity-- in theory. Yet when our sphere of reality, opinions and familiarities bumps with someone else's who is vastly different, there is internal conflict. The universal motto of love to "do unto other as we would have them do unto us" is impossibly difficult.

The reason I say this is because I am convinced that if we could see and talk to each person posting to this article, we would be able to see that in the end, they do not want anyone harmed. The attackers and accusers of the mormons don't want mormons actually attacked and harmed. And those accusing the no-on-8'ers saying they're just as bad if not worse don't want them harmed either.

My friends and I have been succesful in talking about this when we speak honestly and humbly... when we say, "it hurts my feelings that you would not support the rights of gays to get married" or "i feel it hurts my feelings that you think i hate you for wanting to define marriage as between a man and a woman".

On top of all the challenges this issue is forcing us to face, we also have an opportunity to discover how competent we are at really appreciating diversity-- even when it hurts us in our core. How devoutly do we want to strive to love others? Only those that agree with us, or even the very people that hurt us?

unimportant
12 November 2008 at 18:28

I just noticed the caption underneath the picture reads, "Religious conservatives are trying to dictate people's personal choices". If the picture showed opponents of No on 8, would the caption read, "Liberals are trying to dictate people's personal choices"?

I think not...

hubfreeman
15 November 2008 at 04:57

The Mormon retreat on Proposition 8 is very revealing! The Mormon vote may indeed have only been 2% of California voters…and Hitler and Osama Bin Laden are only 2 people in the world’s history – hate has a monumental impact!

Mormon’s and Catholic’s – how does it feel to be part of a persecuted minority?