Wael Ghonim. Credit: David Degner/New Statesman
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Mehdi Hasan speaks to Wael Ghonim, Egyptian democracy activist, on Facebook, Assad and the Muslim Brotherhood

“The fate of nations should be decided by their own people”.

“The fate of nations should be decided by their own people”

How does it feel to be the face of the Egyptian Revolution?
I don't think I am the face; I don't think there should be a face. It's unfair to those who sacrificed their lives.

What prompted you to set up the Facebook page "We are all Khaled Said", which got you arrested by the Mubarak regime and brought you to global prominence?
It was injustice. I'm a patriotic Egyptian, and it was my response to a dictatorship run by security forces that were making everyone scared, using the psychological barrier of fear and the propaganda machine of the media and spreading corruption. I didn't just want to mourn and forget [the killing of the 28-year-old blogger Said by the Egyptian police] after a few days, like everyone else. I knew how to manage Facebook pages and so that's how it all started.

Do you resent the west's decades-long support for Hosni Mubarak and his dictatorial regime?
There has been a huge struggle of "values v interests" for so many years. I don't appreciate the fact that countries which talk of human rights and democracy then go and support dictatorships based on their interests. The west likes to talk about values, but acts based on interests. I believe that the fate of nations should be decided by their own people.

Did you support the west's war in Libya?
The Libya situation is very tricky. Every nation has the right to decide its own destiny. It's not my personal decision to support or oppose an intervention; it should be decided by the people. It's important to see what happens in the next few years. Libya has a lot of oil resources and there are a lot of countries very interested in those resources.

What inspired you to you write your memoir, Revolution 2.0?
I wanted to share my experiences so that other people [in other countries] can do useful things based on my experiences. In this world, we don't really speak to each other; there are lots of misconceptions and stereotypes. A lot of people in the west have only now started to understand that we Arabs share the same universal values, a belief in democracy and human rights. But it's not what they hear on the news.

Why did you choose that title?
From my point of view, the older style of revolution was to have a leader. But in our revolution, and other revolutions that took place in the Arab world, it was a leaderless movement. Everyone was contributing. It was the difference between Web 1.0, where most of the internet was content that users just read and watched, to Web 2.0, where users have started to communicate and collaborate with one another on content. In Revolution 2.0, no one is a leader - everyone is a leader.

What should be done about Bashar al-Assad in Syria, who has turned out to be a more durable and brutal dictator than Mubarak?
I'm not in a position to say what the Syrian people should do. I support the revolution in Syria because it is the same revolution as our own. It is very important that the international community put all sorts of pressure on Syria with an eye to avoid any more casualties.

When will the people of Saudi Arabia join the Arab spring?
I think every dictatorship will have a hard time over the next few years, in this era of communication and collaboration. And I believe eventually even Saudi Arabia will become more open.

Are you worried by the success of the Muslim Brotherhood in the recent Egyptian elections?
No. The western media, and even some sections of the Arab media, are basically taking a very pessimistic view. But what is going on here is very healthy. The Muslim Brotherhood was the strongest party and got almost 50 per cent of the seats. So we should give democracy a chance and respect the choices of the Egyptian people. What matters is that the country should be on the right road map for democratic transition, away from military rule.

Has the Arab spring become an Arab winter?
No, these revolutions take a lot of sacrifices. The Egyptian Revolution is going through hard times but I don't think it is going wrong. One of the best things is that it has no leader who wants to become another dictator. Across the Arab world, empowerment is taking place. People are now strong enough to stand up to injustice and, because of technology and communication and collaboration, these revolutions are going to go in the right direction.

Do you vote?
For the first time in my life, I just voted.

Is there a plan?
No, I have a set of values in my life and the plan keeps changing based on them.

Are we doomed?
I am an optimist. No country or civilisation can continue with people who believe they are doomed. I force myself to wake up every morning believing the world can be a better place.

Defining moments

1980 Born in Cairo
2007 Gains MBA in marketing and finance from the American University in Cairo
2008 Begins working at Google
2010 Promoted to head of marketing. Sets up Facebook fan page for Mohamed ElBaradei
2011 Returns to Egypt to join the revolution. Is detained by security agents
2011 Establishes tech NGO in Egypt
2012 Publishes his book, Revolution 2.0 (Harper Press, £14.99)

Mehdi Hasan is a contributing writer for the New Statesman and the co-author of Ed: The Milibands and the Making of a Labour Leader. He was the New Statesman's senior editor (politics) from 2009-12.

This article first appeared in the 23 January 2012 issue of the New Statesman, Has the Arab Spring been hijacked?

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The New Times: Brexit, globalisation, the crisis in Labour and the future of the left

With essays by David Miliband, Paul Mason, John Harris, Lisa Nandy, Vince Cable and more.

Once again the “new times” are associated with the ascendancy of the right. The financial crash of 2007-2008 – and the Great Recession and sovereign debt crises that were a consequence of it – were meant to have marked the end of an era of runaway “turbocapitalism”. It never came close to happening. The crash was a crisis of capitalism but not the crisis of capitalism. As Lenin observed, there is “no such thing as an absolutely hopeless situation” for capitalism, and so we discovered again. Instead, the greatest burden of the period of fiscal retrenchment that followed the crash was carried by the poorest in society, those most directly affected by austerity, and this in turn has contributed to a deepening distrust of elites and a wider crisis of governance.

Where are we now and in which direction are we heading?

Some of the contributors to this special issue believe that we have reached the end of the “neoliberal” era. I am more sceptical. In any event, the end of neoliberalism, however you define it, will not lead to a social-democratic revival: it looks as if, in many Western countries, we are entering an age in which centre-left parties cannot form ruling majorities, having leaked support to nationalists, populists and more radical alternatives.

Certainly the British Labour Party, riven by a war between its parliamentary representatives and much of its membership, is in a critical condition. At the same time, Jeremy Corbyn’s leadership has inspired a remarkable re-engagement with left-wing politics, even as his party slumps in the polls. His own views may seem frozen in time, but hundreds of thousands of people, many of them young graduates, have responded to his anti-austerity rhetoric, his candour and his shambolic, unspun style.

The EU referendum, in which as much as one-third of Labour supporters voted for Brexit, exposed another chasm in Labour – this time between educated metropolitan liberals and the more socially conservative white working class on whose loyalty the party has long depended. This no longer looks like a viable election-winning coalition, especially after the collapse of Labour in Scotland and the concomitant rise of nationalism in England.

In Marxism Today’s “New Times” issue of October 1988, Stuart Hall wrote: “The left seems not just displaced by Thatcherism, but disabled, flattened, becalmed by the very prospect of change; afraid of rooting itself in ‘the new’ and unable to make the leap of imagination required to engage the future.” Something similar could be said of the left today as it confronts Brexit, the disunities within the United Kingdom, and, in Theresa May, a prime minister who has indicated that she might be prepared to break with the orthodoxies of the past three decades.

The Labour leadership contest between Corbyn and Owen Smith was largely an exercise in nostalgia, both candidates seeking to revive policies that defined an era of mass production and working-class solidarity when Labour was strong. On matters such as immigration, digital disruption, the new gig economy or the power of networks, they had little to say. They proposed a politics of opposition – against austerity, against grammar schools. But what were they for? Neither man seemed capable of embracing the “leading edge of change” or of making the imaginative leap necessary to engage the future.

So is there a politics of the left that will allow us to ride with the currents of these turbulent “new times” and thus shape rather than be flattened by them? Over the next 34 pages 18 writers, offering many perspectives, attempt to answer this and related questions as they analyse the forces shaping a world in which power is shifting to the East, wars rage unchecked in the Middle East, refugees drown en masse in the Mediterranean, technology is outstripping our capacity to understand it, and globalisation begins to fragment.

— Jason Cowley, Editor 

Tom Kibasi on what the left fails to see

Philip Collins on why it's time for Labour to end its crisis

John Harris on why Labour is losing its heartland

Lisa Nandy on how Labour has been halted and hollowed out

David Runciman on networks and the digital revolution

John Gray on why the right, not the left, has grasped the new times

Mariana Mazzucato on why it's time for progressives to rethink capitalism

Robert Ford on why the left must reckon with the anger of those left behind

Ros Wynne-Jones on the people who need a Labour government most

Gary Gerstle on Corbyn, Sanders and the populist surge

Nick Pearce on why the left is haunted by the ghosts of the 1930s

Paul Mason on why the left must be ready to cause a commotion

Neal Lawson on what the new, 21st-century left needs now

Charles Leadbeater explains why we are all existentialists now

John Bew mourns the lost left

Marc Stears on why democracy is a long, hard, slow business

Vince Cable on how a financial crisis empowered the right

David Miliband on why the left needs to move forward, not back

This article first appeared in the 22 September 2016 issue of the New Statesman, The New Times