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The New Depression

Martin Jacques

Published 12 February 2009

The business and political elite are flying blind. This is the mother of all economic crises. It has barely started and remains completely out of control. By Martin Jacques, who this week joins the New Statesman as a columnist. Plus don't miss our Q&A

Illustration by Otto Dettmar

The New Depression

We are living through a crisis which, from the collapse of Northern Rock and the first intimations of the credit crunch, nobody has been able to understand, let alone grasp its potential ramifications. Each attempt to deal with the crisis has rapidly been consumed by an irresistible and ever-worsening reality. So it was with Northern Rock. So it was with the attempt to recapitalise the banks. And so it will be with the latest gamut of measures. The British government – like every other government – is perpetually on the back foot, constantly running to catch up. There are two reasons. First, the underlying scale of the crisis is so great and so unfamiliar – and, furthermore, often concealed within the balance sheets of the banks and other financial institutions. Second, the crisis has undermined all the ideological assumptions that have underpinned government policy and political discourse over the past 30 years. As a result, the political and business elite are flying blind. This is the mother of all postwar crises, which has barely started and remains out of control. Its end – the timing and the complexion – is unknown.

Crises that change the course of history and transform political assumptions are rare events. The last came in the second half of the 1970s, triggered by the Opec oil price spike and a dramatic rise in inflation, which marked the end of the long postwar boom. Its political consequences were far-reaching: the closure of the social democratic era, the rise of neoliberalism, the discrediting of the state, the embrace of the market, the undermining of the public ethos and the espousal of rampant individualism. For the next 30 years, neoliberalism - the belief in the market rather then the state, the individual rather than the social - exercised a hegemonic influence over British politics, with the creation of New Labour signalling an abject surrender to the new orthodoxy.

The modalities of this present crisis are entirely different. Extreme as they may have appeared to be at the time, the economic travails of the 1970s were progressive rather than cataclysmic. The old system did not hit the wall, but became increasingly mired and ineffectual. What swept the social democratic era away was not the force de frappe of an irresistible crisis but that it was accompanied by the steady rise of a new ideology and political force in Thatcherism - and Reaganism in the United States - and its victory in the 1979 general election.

In contrast, the financial meltdown of 2007-2008 demolished the neoliberal era and its assumptions with a suddenness and irresistibility that was breathtaking. The political class, from New Labour to the Conservatives, is standing naked. They are still clinging to the wreckage of their old ideas while acknowledging in the next breath that these no longer work. The financial crisis is a matter of force majeure; political ideas and discourse change much more slowly, even when it is obvious that the old ways of thinking have become obsolete. Meanwhile, there is no political alternative waiting in the wings, refining its radical ideas in think tanks ready to storm the citadels of power as there was in the 1970s, notwithstanding the fact that think tanks are now far thicker on the ground. Instead, it has been the mainstream which senses that neoliberalism no longer works, fatally undermined by events and, ultimately, the author of its own downfall. This crisis will have the most profound and far-reaching political consequences and will in due course transform the political landscape, but it remains entirely unclear in what ways and when that might be.

In all these senses the financial meltdown has far more in common with the Great Depression than the Great Inflation. When the financial crisis consumed Wall Street in 1929 and proceeded to undermine the real economy, engulfing Europe in the process, it was not accompanied by a radical shift towards Keynesianism, but rather a reassertion of sound finance orthodoxy, followed in due course by the adoption of protectionism. The political mainstream as represented by Labour's Ramsay MacDonald and Philip Snowden and the Conservative Stanley Baldwin all sang from the same hymn sheet. Only Keynes and a faction of the Liberal Party enunciated a plausible alternative. Eventually a programme of fiscal deficits and public works was pursued by Franklin D Roosevelt in the United States, but in Britain Keynesianism was not properly embraced until rearmament and the approach of war. Indeed, it was not until 1945 that the combined legacy of war and the Depression belatedly resulted in a fundamental political realignment and the birth of the social democratic era.

The Grim Reaper has finally spoken:

a boom pumped up by credit steroids and a bust that takes us back to the 1930s

Since the financial meltdown dramatically intensified in September 2008, Gordon Brown has managed to ride the economic storm rather more successfully than the Conservatives, or, for that matter, than Tony Blair would have done. It is Vincent Cable, the Liberal Democrats' econo­mics spokesman, however, who has indubitably emerged as the political sage, unafraid of confronting neoliberalism's shibboleths, demonstrating a clarity of mind and the political courage to tell things as they are, in a way that has escaped all other prominent politicians. Although Brown was the economic architect of the past decade and was responsible, more than anyone else, for its excesses and was shaping up to be a rather disastrous Prime Minister, he displayed last autumn, at least initially, an agility of mind and nimbleness of foot that defied the expectations of those who believed he was capable of neither. He revelled in the sense of purpose and vision offered by the crisis, seemingly prepared to jettison the thinking that had imbued his previous decade as chancellor.

But Package Part I, widely hailed at the time and imitated elsewhere, proved woefully inadequate, and the financial system remains frozen. Meanwhile the waters are rising up the Good Ship UK, threatening to transform the banking crisis into a fiscal and currency crisis. It seems unlikely that, if that should happen, Brown will survive the next election.


Even if it does not happen, Brown faces a serious problem about his own past role, because Britain’s crisis has been greatly exacerbated by the soft-touch regulation, easy credit, runaway house inflation and overexpansion of financial services over which he presided and for which he is accountable. So far he has refused to admit or accept responsibility for his actions – he initially had the temerity (or foolhardiness) to argue that the UK was better placed than other countries to deal with the credit crunch, even though it has become abundantly clear since that the very opposite was the case. So while Brown remains in denial, the plausibility of his new turn, and his understanding of what is entailed, must be seriously doubted.

Indeed, after its initial boldness, the government now seems trapped by its past actions and its former ways of thinking. Brown's failure to accept the need to nationalise the banks suggests the limits of his new-found political courage, and his inability to embrace the logic and imperatives of the new situation. He is still a prisoner of his old timidity and his conversion to the neoliberal cause. It is his good fortune that the Cameron Conservatives have been hugely wanting in their response to the financial meltdown. Having spent his first years as leader of the opposition seeking to reassure the country of his centrist credentials, David Cameron, at the first whiff of gunfire, has turned on his heels, rejected Keynesianism and, at the very moment when events have shown Thatcherism to be deeply flawed and historically out of time, headed back to the Thatcherite womb of sound finance, arguing that a government must balance its books and that deficit financing, Keynesian-style, is reckless and irresponsible.

But all this, it must be said, is the small change of politics. The crisis threatens in time to sweep away the political world as we know it and those who fail to grasp its magnitude and meaning. Far more is at stake than the fortunes of a few leaders, be their name Brown or Cameron. Who knows where things will be this time next month, let alone next year or, indeed, in 2012? The financial meltdown now rapidly plunging the western world into what increasingly looks like a depression is the first great crisis of globalisation. There was plenty of warning. The Asian financial crisis of 1997-98 proved a salutary lesson about the dangers posed by huge capital movements that were subject to precious little regulatory control. Three economies capsized (South Korea, Thailand and Indonesia) and others stood on the brink.

There were other earlier warning signs, notably Mexico in 1995, when GDP fell by 9 per cent and industrial production by 15 per cent, following a run on the peso. These crises were blamed on the immaturity and fecklessness of national governments - in the case of east Asia on so-called crony capitalism (which, incidentally, prompts the question of how we should describe Anglo-American capitalism) - which the International Monetary Fund obliged to engage in swingeing cuts in public expenditure as a condition of their bailouts.

Yet what if such a crisis were to be no longer confined to the peripheries of global capitalism but instead struck at its heartlands? Now we know the answer. The crisis has enveloped the whole world like an uncontrollable virus, spreading from the US and within a handful of months assuming global proportions, at the same time mutating with frightening speed from a financial crisis into a fully fledged economic crisis. In so doing, it has undermined the foundations on which the present era of globalisation has been built, namely scant regulation, the free movement of capital, a bloated financial sector and immense reward for greed, thereby bringing into question the survival of globalisation as we now know it.

Enormous international flows of unregulated capital have capsized the international financial system - with disastrous consequences for the real economy - in a manner akin to the effect of a roll-on, roll-off ferry shipping too much water. We can now see the cost of free-market capitalism and light-touch regulation. Iceland may provide an extreme example of the consequences of the credit crunch but it also illustrates the dangers facing the more vulnerable economies, the UK included, in a deregulated world where the market rules: a small, open economy; a large, internationally exposed banking sector; an independent currency that is not a serious global reserve currency (of which there are only three); and limited fiscal strength. These propositions have constituted the core economic beliefs - from Thatcher and Lawson to Blair and Brown - that have informed policymaking over the past three decades and without which, it was claimed ad nauseam, an economy could not succeed. Heavy-handed regulation and an overbearing state would serve only to frighten off capital and condemn a country to slow growth, stagnation and global marginality. Now we know the fallaciousness of these claims and the consequences of "letting the market decide".

Like Iceland, albeit not as extremely, Britain has been living in a fool's paradise. A failure to regulate the banks and other financial institutions in any meaningful fashion allowed bankers to behave in a grossly irresponsible and avaricious fashion; a boom that was made possible only by a government-enabled credit binge in which people borrowed recklessly; a bloated financial sector that grew to represent over 8 per cent of the total economy and which was found to have been built on foundations of sand; an overvalued currency that made manufacturing exports uncompetitive and thereby resulted in an unnecessary and counterproductive contraction in the manufacturing sector which must now be reversed; an absurd belief that boom and bust had been banished for ever, allowing the banks to turn a blind eye to the inflating of various asset bubbles and display a profound ignorance of the history of capitalism; a persistently chronic current account deficit that can no longer be compensated for by inward capital flows; monstrous salaries for those at the top of the financial and corporate tree, which were justified in terms of a trickle-down effect that remained a chimera, and as the reward for risk which was, in fact, a reward for greed and failure; growing inequality, which was justified in the name of a more competitive economy accompanied by declining social mobility in the cause of an open and flexible labour market; and, finally, the mushrooming of what can only be described as systemic corruption on a mega-scale as the state ignored the gargantuan abuses of those who ran the banks and other financial institutions, while regulatory authorities willingly colluded in their excesses.

This is the sad story of the New Labour era.

The ultimate cost of this debacle as yet remains unknown. What began as a financial crisis is threatening, as the government seeks to bail out a bankrupt financial sector, to become a currency crisis, with foreign investors concerned about the effects this might have on the value of sterling, and perhaps even worse, ultimately a sovereign debt crisis, with growing doubts about the UK’s financial viability. Until there is some end in sight to the financial crisis, and a line can be drawn under the banks’ indebtedness, we will not know the answer to these questions. One thing is clear, however: whatever the limitations of the social democratic era, it was never responsible for such an all-enveloping and cataclysmic crisis as the one that the neoliberal era – and the Thatcherites and New Labour – have managed to produce. After all the boasting about the virtues of the Anglo-American model of capitalism, the Grim Reaper has finally spoken: a boom pumped up by credit steroids and a bust that takes us back to the 1930s.

There are two key aspects to this crisis: national and global, with the latter promising to be rather solutions are concerned, we are in uncharted territory, with close to zero interest rates, a Keynesian-style fiscal boost that may prove inadequate to the task and could well fail, a hugely indebted financial sector that threatens to leave us with an enormous future tax burden and a greatly expanded national debt. All of this, furthermore, must be addressed in the context of an open-market regime which is very different from those of previous eras, and which could render Keynesian-style national solutions ineffectual. What would greatly assist any national recovery is a co-ordinated global response to the crisis; in other words, global co-operation at the highest level. This cannot be ruled out, but it would be a brave person that would bet on it. It was exactly the lack of international co-operation that bedevilled recovery in the 1930s and eventually led to the Balkanisation of the world into regional currency and trading blocs.

The most important single question in this context is the relationship between the US and China. Will the Obama administration be able to resist the slippery slope of creeping protectionism? Will arguments over the revaluation of the Chinese renminbi be resolved amicably? If the answer is in the negative, then the global outlook will be very bleak indeed and so, also, as a result, will be the prognosis for national recoveries. Indeed, the prospects would look disturbingly like those of the 1930s, with growing international antagonism and friction and a continuingly intractable crisis at a national level, with only the very slowest of recoveries.

Around the world there is growing evidence by the week of a resort to national solutions at the expense of others: measures to subsidise industries that are in severe difficulties; the Buy American clause that was inserted by the House of Representatives into Barack Obama's latest package (though since weakened); the industrial action in Britain against foreign workers; the withdrawal of banks to their national homes; the attack by Timothy Geithner, the US treasury secretary, on China as a currency manipulator. No Rubicon has been crossed but the warning signs are clear. A retreat into protectionism and beggar-thy-neighbour policies will deliver the world into a second Great Depression.

So what will be the political effects of the financial meltdown? Some are already evident. Just as the Great Inflation of the 1970s played to the tunes and concerns of the right, with its invocation of the market, the New Depression suggests the opposite, the inherent limitations of the market and the indispensability of the state. Indeed, the speed with which the neoliberal refrains and invocations have unravelled has been breathtaking. The single most discredited aspect of the social democratic legacy was nationalisation, and yet the government, with the most extreme reluctance, has been obliged to nationalise Northern Rock and partially nationalise the Royal Bank of Scotland and the merged Lloyds TSB and HBOS. Who would have ever imagined, at any point during the past 30 years, that no less than the financial commanding heights of neoliberalism would have ended up in the hands of the state, with precious little opposition from anyone except a few disgruntled shareholders? Even now, however, the Labour government, still trapped in the ideological straitjacket of New Labour and displaying extreme timidity in the face of powerful vested interests, which has always been a New Labour characteristic, is running scared of the inevitable logic of the situation, namely that all the high-street banks should be taken into public hands until the mess is sorted out. Anything else leaves the public responsible for all the debts and risks, while the banks continue to be answerable to the very different interests of their shareholders. But such is the fury and depth of the crisis that this scenario is highly likely.

The state is experiencing an extraordinary revival. The credit crunch is the most catastrophic example of market failure since 1945. It became almost immediately obvious to wide sections of society that there was only one institution that could potentially sort out the mess: the state. Far from being a rational distributor of resources, the market had proved the opposite. Far from bankers and financial traders embodying the public interest, they have been exposed as irresponsible and dangerous risk-takers whose primary motivation was voracious greed. If trade unionists and the nationalised industries were the demons of the 1970s, bankers and the financial sector have assumed the mantle of public enemy number one in the late Noughties. In fact, the irresponsibility of bankers, and the damage they have inflicted on the economy, hugely exceeds anything that the unions could possibly be held responsible for in an earlier era. Meanwhile, the fallen heroes of the pre-Thatcher era, most notably Keynes, are duly being exhumed, restored to their rightful position, and pored over for their ability to throw light on the present impasse and what might be done; if the recession turns into a depression, Marx will once again become required reading.

This political shift is not just a British phenomenon, but a more general western one. The most striking feature of President Obama's inaugural speech was the way in which it embraced and legitimised African Americans for the first time in American history. But it also had another powerful theme, namely its invocation of the public interest and public service. After decades during which American political discourse has been dominated by the language of individualism and the market, it came as a shock to hear a US president articulate a very different kind of philosophy, renouncing private greed in favour of the public good. Obama's election can in part be seen as a response to the failure of the neoliberal era, as well as of Bush's neoconservative agenda; certainly his election represents a remarkable shift to the left in US politics, in contrast not just to Bush, but every recent US president, including Reagan, Bush Sr and Clinton. That Obama is the first African-American president also represents a remarkable redrawing of the political landscape. There is no more powerful - nor difficult - way of redefining society or to embrace a new form of representivity than to include a racial minority that has been excluded.

This brings us finally to what might be the longer-term global consequences of the crisis. Again, we are inevitably stumbling around in the dark because so much depends on whether the recession metamorphoses into a fully fledged depression and in what way and shape the world eventually emerges from the debacle. That said, two key points can be made. First, the credit crunch signals the demise of the Anglo-American, neoliberal model of capitalism, which has exercised a hegemonic influence over western capitalism and been the blueprint for globalisation since 1980. Because of its catastrophic failure there seems very little chance of its resurrection. The process of recovery - whenever that might be - will be accompanied by an overriding concern to ensure that the events of 2007-2009 are not repeated in the future, just as happened in the US in the 1930s with the strict regulatory framework that was introduced for the banks after their comprehensive failure in 1929. This will include the search for a new global regulatory framework that controls and constrains international movements of capital, as well as strict controls over the financial sector at a national level. A new set of political priorities - and with it a new political language - will be born.

Meanwhile, the influence and prestige that the US, and to a far lesser extent Britain, have enjoyed will vaporise in the same manner as their neoliberal model. Their 30-year project has failed and they will be obliged to pay the price in their reputation and the esteem in which they are held. The countries of the former Soviet Union and the casualties of the Asian financial crisis that were forced to swallow the neoliberal medicine will have good reason to feel aggrieved and resentful. The west has been forthright in accusing the non-western world of corruption. The financial meltdown suggests that the west has been guilty of huge hypocrisy. Systemic corruption has lain at the heart of the western financial system. An entirely disproportionate and extortionate level of bonuses has ensured the enormous enrichment of top executives in the financial sector, all in the name of reward for success, when in fact it was the reward for failure. In addition, we have had the collusion of the credit-ratings agencies; a regulatory system characterised by its failure to act as any kind of constraint; and governments that ensured the continuation of this web of relationships and applauded its achievements. The corruption was on a breathtaking scale as evidenced by the size of the bailouts required to rescue the banks. It will be difficult for western governments to make these kinds of accusations of others in the future. That Obama represents such a voice of hope will help to mitigate the inevitable ill-will towards the US, but this should not be exaggerated amid the euphoria surrounding developments in Washington.

The second point is more far-reaching. It is doubtful whether we can still describe ourselves as living in the American era or, indeed, the Age of the West. If not yet quite over, both are certainly drawing to a close, and it seems likely that the effect of the financial meltdown will be to accelerate the rise of China as a global power. The contrast between the situation in China and that in the US could hardly be greater, even though it has been partially obscured by the depressive effect of the western recession on Chinese exports and on China’s growth rate. While the US economy is contracting, China’s grew at roughly 9 per cent in 2008 and is projected to grow at about 6 per cent in 2009. Its banks, far from bankrupt like their US counterparts, are cash-rich. China enjoys a large current account surplus, the government’s finances are in good order and the national debt is small. This is a crisis that emanates from the US and whose impact on China has been essentially indirect, through the contraction of western markets. It is the American model that has failed, not the Chinese.

One of the factors that intensified the Great Depression, and indeed was part cause of it, was Britain's growing inability to continue in its role as the world's leading financial power, which culminated in the collapse of the gold standard in 1931. It was not until after the war, however, that the US became sufficiently dominant to replace Britain and act as the mainstay of a new financial system at the heart of which was the dollar. The same kind of problem is evident now: the US is no longer strong enough to act as the world's financial centre, but its obvious successor, namely China, is not yet ready to assume that mantle. This will undoubtedly make the search for a global solution to the present crisis more difficult and more protracted.

Martin Jacques's new column will be published fortnightly in the New Statesman. His book "When China Rules the World: the Rise of the Middle Kingdom and the End of the Western World" will be published in June (Allen Lane, £25)

the global downturn in numbers

    0.5%

    IMF prediction for global growth in 2009 - worst since WWII

    Up to 40 million

    Number of people who will lose their jobs this year, according to the International Labour Organisation

    $9.7trn

    Total pledged by the US alone towards solving the crisis

    3.6%

    Proportion of GDP pledged by the G7 and BRICs countries towards fixing the crisis (1.5% this year)

    2.3m

    Number of US properties that received a default notice or were repossessed in 2008. In the UK, 45,000 homes were repossessed - another 75,000 are expected to be taken in 2009

    14

    Number of major global banks which collapsed, were sold or were nationalised during 2008

    200,000

    Number of European companies expected to fail this year; an additional 62,000 are expected to fail in the United States. These figures represent record levels of insolvency

    52%

    Increase in UK company failures between late 2007 and late 2008

    14%

    Drop in level of Chinese exports during January

    1%

    Current UK interest rates (down from 5% in October 2008). In the US, rates have fallen to between 0 and 0.25%

How the crisis unfolded

13 September 2007 Run on Northern Rock begins when it is revealed that the bank has requested emergency support from the Bank of England

21 January 2008 FTSE suffers worst falls since 11 September 2001

February 2008 Northern Rock nationalised

17 March 2008 JP Morgan Chase takes over the US investment bank Bear Stearns

12 July Mortgage lender IndyMac collapses - second biggest US bank in history to fail

9 August 2007 European Central Bank pumps ?95bn into banking market

7 September Financial authorities step in to rescue Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac

9 September Bradford & Bingley becomes second British bank to be nationalised

15 September Lehman Brothers files for bankruptcy

16 September AIG, biggest insurance firm in the US, receives $85bn rescue package

3 October 2008 US government announces $700bn Troubled Assets Relief Programme

8 October UK launches its first bank bailout plan, making £50bn available

October 2008 Iceland's banks collapse. IMF extends £1.4bn ($2.1bn) loan a month later

24 November Alistair Darling announces a temporary cut in VAT from 17.5 to 15 per cent

23 January 2009 UK enters recession

28 January US Congress passes Barack Obama's $819bn stimulus package

5 February UK Monetary Policy Committee votes to cut interest rates to 1 per cent - the lowest in over three centuries

Michael Harvey

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83 comments from readers

Optimist
12 February 2009 at 11:15

Good lord what a rant! And what a load of nonsense. Banking and finance isn't subject to light touch regulation - in the OECD countries alone there are dozens and dozens of regulating agencies, offices, authorities, bureaux, with tens of thousands of rules, regulations, and codes. Only the health-care industry has more regulation.

What's more, post-war social democracy wasn't swept away by Thatcher and Reagan, it was swept away by voters who knew it simply didn't work.

This supposed 30-year project of Britian and the US - i suggest you try 300 years, a period ten times longer which has seen enormous wealth creation in those countries who adopted liberal free market policies and institutions.

And exactly who is responsible for the feared fiscal and currency crisis? Are you seriously blaming the market for that? Wouldn't an unregulated market have a) prevented banks from getting so big and so risky and b) allowed them to fail if they did? Talk about trying to have your cake and eat it.

By the way Mr Jacques, this "corruption on a breath-taking scale" you keep banging on about, where are all the arrests, charges, and indictments one would expect to see if in fact it existed or occured? Surely there's plenty of incentive to bring these supposed criminals to justice? Or was this "corruption" all part of a global plot hatched by a shadowy power clique to exploit and suppress the masses blah blah blah....

Gerry Myer
12 February 2009 at 12:07

This article is balanced and accurate in every detail.

Be patient "Optimist", it's early days yet; there is time aplenty for the corrupt to be held to account. perhaps you are one of those who needs to worry

Whilst it is true that "paying peanuts gets monkeys" so too is the corollary that offering fortunes attracts felons. Only a sick society would acquiesce in the extremes of income that we have tolerated.

Carl Jones
12 February 2009 at 12:48

Martin, it is clear that you haven`t done your homework and read some of the comments. You can`t write such SHALLOW bunkum. Of course, this might be intentional.

"Perpetually on the back foot", "they" wouldn`t have it any other way.LOL In case you didn`t know, I believe this crisis was PLANNED, there are one or two others who are catching on to this reallity.

"The crisis has undermined all the ideological assumptions that have underpinned government policy and political discourse over the past 30 years". We were on the globalisation bell-curve down slope. So you would expect a fundamental change in ideology.

It gets better.LOL

"As a result, the political and business elite are flying blind". Once again, they want it to appear this way, if they has stuckto their CAPITALIST GLOBALISATION MANTRA, "you can`t buck the market, the market is ALWAYS RIGHT, they would have let things take their natural course AND LET THE BANKS GO BUST.

"Out of control", not true, things are going swimmingly. The bailouts and liquidity aren`t about restarting the economy...if nothing had been done, nearly all the banks would now be BUST, akin to a train hitting the buffers at 100mph. All the bailouts are designed to do, is reduce impact speed to 50mph.LOL They could have sent the bad debt and bust banks into a siding and used OUR money to lend to business and public, BUT THAT WOULD BE TOO EASY.LOL

"The political class, from New Labour to the Conservatives, is standing naked. They are still clinging to the wreckage of their old ideas", this is dangerous talk...do you want another NWO Hitler puppet? Maybe this "their" sick plan....is Obama going to turn into another HITLER?? Everything is in place for this to happen, all we need is another sham terror attack, a fire in the Reichstag.LOL

Oh dear.

"There is no political alternative waiting in the wings",...who said anything about "political"...hey man, lose the straightjack, remember, this is new ground.LOL

Contin

Nilsey105
12 February 2009 at 13:05

".... he initially had the temerity (or foolhardiness) to argue that the UK was better placed than other countries to deal with the credit crunch,..."

Brown was still espousing his belief in this during the select committees questioning of him this very morning.

Carl Jones
12 February 2009 at 13:14

Martin, China will give Obama a few months at most, for him t decide on the direction of the Dollar. It is my guess that China has not acted fast enough...they have trusted the US too much with their "rope a dope" tactics.

The only area where Martin gets hot, is on the "new society"...one wonders if MI6/Chatham House stipulated this NWO pitch?lol EVERYTHING about Obama and the present NWO construct, smacks of Hitler the 2nd. If we avoid this, we will still end up with a totalitarian police state, with curfews, lockdowns, travel restrictions, food rationing and mandatory ID cards.chips...one wonders at how much FILTH MI6/Mi5/CIA/FBI/Mossad have on our political classes, so they would let this happen...

...all hail Common Purpose, welcome to your New World (Global) Order.LOL

Nilsey105
12 February 2009 at 13:15

Brown and the Bankers are all singing from the same hymn sheet. There is not a one of them think they are to blame for any of this mountain of defecation. The degree to their denial is no less than 360.

The more Brown denies the more he is going to lose votes at the next general elction, whenever that maybe.

Nilsey105
12 February 2009 at 14:20

"David King: Iraq was the first 'resource war' of the century"

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2009/feb/12/king-iraq-...

coplani
12 February 2009 at 17:16

Go and visit U-Tube and listen to Gerald Celente for a harsh realism on the American situation.......Quite scary...but no one is debating with him...Is what he says too near the truth??

fairplay
12 February 2009 at 18:38

all planned in advance and executed to perfection.

serfdom reigns once again. cctv in place to quell the dissenting masses. media ready to sell whatever plan the NWO has to "save" us. joe public too stupid to see the truth. you have to hand it to them. there will be a few token sacrifices in the courts at some stage but not the ones who orchestrated this calamity. thank gd for the alternative media who have predicted everything that has happened to an absolute tee for the last 3 years.

thanks to them i didnt take the bait and am pretty sound at this present time. no mortgage, no debt, no car on hp, low expenses though i live pretty well and a bit of gold to see me through (if the government doesnt confiscate it!).

we have seen a coup de etat in the uk and usa by the central banks. they have bankrupted themselves, been bailed out by us which looks like bankrupting us, leaving them with the spoils and a wad of cash available to buy up the cream of everything as and when they please. but hey, thats a conspiracy isnt it? conspiracy my arse. see how things are in 12 months time and then call it a conspiracy.

fairplay
12 February 2009 at 18:39

gerald celente is spot on usually

bedabs
12 February 2009 at 22:03

It seems that Mr Optimist is quite comfortable with Tory, Tory Lite, and Tory Lite with a slice of lemon.

Nothing has changed after all has it?

Not for the great and the good eh!!........Ra Ra Ra

Nilsey105
12 February 2009 at 23:40

The European Commission states the EU countries are running out of bailout funds and the industrial manufactureing base will never recover as Asian contries undercut EU on price.

Sounds like protectionism to me.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/industry/460...

Nilsey105
12 February 2009 at 23:55

And now for something near to the reality and enormity

of how bad things are in the EU.

It looks as if a second bank bailout is looming high on the horizon. If this is the case it may require, wait for it now, here it comes, £16.3 trillion, to clear the toxic debts. Makes me think what the UK toxic debt it as we have been told the rest of the EU toxic debt is a fraction of that of UK banks.

No its now looking even more like we are doomed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcr...

lavinia moore
13 February 2009 at 04:49

When the neo cons and their ancestors the neo liberals began to worship themselves, and believe that power and/or great riches should belong only to them and their kind, the world rapidly began to tilt to one side.

If it has tipped over, why should we be surprised?

I often told friends, those who thought that they would be rich in their retirement that I didnt think it likely that there would be much left of their retirement benefits by the time they needed it. they laughed.

I pointed out that it was obscene that some people were paid millions each year, while most workers who worked just as hard and who were effective and productive in their job received paltry salaries, sometimes not even enough to sustain their family.

I was scoffed at as being an old lefty.

When money speculators bought and sold currency to the extent they were able to wipe out national aconomies, when the IMF and world bank destroyed the social fabric through their structural adjustment programmes, when farming families were driven off their productive lands and replaced by huge agri-corporations who factory farmed, I pointed out that these trends were a worry.

What can you do about it, people responded?

I didnt understand how the system worked to the degree that I knew how corruption was able to continue unchallenged, but I did recognise that the system was corrupt: far more so that those fabled african states that were always sneered at.

So I for one am very unsurprised.

The issue now is how can we- the peoples of the world- stop our leaders reverting to practices and policies that are no different from those that caused the problems in the first place?

Growth economics? An oxymoron! we live on a finite planet. There are too many of us. We need to first look at overpopulation, then unsustainable use of resources, then equity regarding wages, pensions and allowances so that all can have a living wage, and be sustained to the degree they can contribute to the planet's wellbeing.

fairplay
13 February 2009 at 06:53

"We need to first look at overpopulation, then unsustainable use of resources, then equity regarding wages, pensions and allowances so that all can have a living wage, and be sustained to the degree they can contribute to the planet's wellbeing."

we need a revolution. we need guillotines. we need the people running things behind the scenes and in the shadows to be brought to book. we need to declare unilateral war on the CFR and tri lateral commission. we need to lead more spiritual lives. we need less bling. we need better education. we need liberty. geez, we need a hell of a lot. who took all these things away from us in the first place?

obama is being shown for what he is ie the new tony blair. a wolf in sheeps clothing. and what with these massive bailouts continuing how long before the disillusioned and possibly violently frustrated public says enough is enough and the government has to unleash the attack dogs on them. this will get very messy and mark my words another pearl harbour/911 is being planned and about to be unleashed on us by the powers that be just in time for them to "save us" and take all our eyes off th ball at exactly the right time. that is their only way out of this mess

writeon
13 February 2009 at 09:17

Compared to the Great Depression, we are arguably, at this stage of the crisis, in a far worse position. The collapse in production in the 'real economy' is on a truly world-wide scale, it's quicker, and it's more violent; with falls in many sectors in excess of 50% and more.

This crisis looks like it's going to be worse than the Great Depression, unless some miracle happens to save us. The effects of this massive contraction in the economy will be around for decades.

Basically, the UK economy is probably 25% larger than it should be. The City and our financial institutions are oversized and are going to contract substantially. Now the oil and gas revenues are gone and the financial bubble has burst, what are people going to live on exactly?

Our economic success and properity were based on an illusion, financed by the creation of vast ammounts of debt, now that's all over, for good. We'll never see it again in our lifetimes. The era of cheap money/debt is over.

Nilsey105
13 February 2009 at 11:49

writeon

My last post, of yesterday, above is about the EU banks being in need of yet further bailout.

Today we have reports of the banks in the USA being in a similar position. There is now a move in the USA to take up the methods used by the Swedish Banks when they had problems in the early 1990s.

That methodology was to fully nationalise the banks until they became secure instrumnts once again and then sold off to new (sic) shareholders.

The USA government will take that road to recoverry, if the UK government does is another matter.

But knowing how Brown hasnt got an original thought in his head he will follow the lead set by others as he did for all those years when he just tracked what Greenspan did.

Nilsey105
13 February 2009 at 11:49

oooooooooops

http://www.iht.com/articles/2009/02/13/business/13insolvent....

Alex Olteanu
13 February 2009 at 12:15

Anyone who claims that China will be the next superpower ignores the stark social, political and environmental realities of this country in the middle of an unprecedented internal upheaval. The much greater likelihood is that China will experience a spectacular internal collapse, thus putting to rest those who cannot differentiate between a fundamentally sustainable and dynamic society experiencing a temporary crisis (USA) and a deeply unbalanced and volatile polity piling up huge growth rates from an extremely low starting-point. China will not become a superpower - at least not during the 21st century.

writeon
13 February 2009 at 12:24

I'm not sure that following the Swedish model will work. The United States, the entire Western world, isn't Sweden. It's the collosal scale of the current crisis that worries me.

We've wasted at least a year trying to stabilize the financial sector, and up to a point we've succeeded, but at an enormous price; sacrificing the real economy to save the banks. The Banks should have been nationalized months ago. Yet, as this is a global crisis, what happens in Britain isn't what really counts. However, if the UK had taken over the banks and broken their lending strike, there's a chance that success in Britain might have acted as a beacon and been followed by others as a model. Only how independent is the UK government and the City in relation to Washington and Wallstreet? Can the UK nationalize the banks without permission from Washington, I doubt it very much? After all Britain became an American satelite decades ago, after the Great Depression and WW2 broke us down.

We should be very concerned that the United States will choose to follow the UK example from the 20th century, when Britain opted for military confrontation with its main European trading rival, Germany, in a vain attempt to forstall its rise to great power status. Will the US choose the same path in relation to China?

There is even a parallel to the gold standard from the Great Depression, the status of the dollar as the world's reserve currancy. According to some the entire US financial system is effectively insolvent, bust. The next thing to go will be US treasury bonds and then the dollar. The US is probably bankrupt, only because their economy is so big, the consequences of acknowledging this sorry state of affairs are truly horrendous for everyone else. So everyone pretends that this insn't the case. Only it can't last for ever. Eventually the US won't be able to demand 'imperial tribute' in vast capital transfers from the rest of the world, because they are simply too big to fail.

poulter
13 February 2009 at 12:42

Sound article.

Interesting that the catastrophists read the NS too (cf Carl Jones - too racked by LOLling to contribute much).

writeon
13 February 2009 at 12:50

Already the US is attempting to ignore the most basic rules of capitalism by giving life-support to banks that are dead and should be buried before they infect the rest of the economy and drag it down too. The banks are zombie banks, the living dead. This fundamental, anti-market, stance, cannot continue for much longer.

Instead of giving transfusions to the zombie banks we should pull out the tubes and let them die, and start again afresh. This is of course pretty drastic medicine, yet this is how capitalism is supposed to function, at leat in theory.

But does state/capitalism which abandons the normal script of free-market capitalism have a future? Does it work? Does the state have the resources to simply replace the 'free-market' with a state controlled and supported market system? Shouldn't state resources be used to support new, and healthy banks, instead of a futile attempt to save dying and decaying zombie banks?

I think we are living in the worst of all possible worlds. The losses of private banks have been socialized, yet we have no real control, like we would have after proper 'socialist' nationalization. It's almost like taxation without representation and we all know where that led us.

Markets have a healthy competative function in many ways, yet we are disregarding this core rule at the very heart of our economies. We are protecting stupidity, recklessness, incomptence and criminality. This is a dreadful lesson to carve into stone, that if things go wrong the state will step in and put things right at vast cost to the taxpayers.

On the other hand maybe this is the beginning of the end of the private capitalist model we've known for the last three hunderd years. The old is dying and something new is being born. The state and capitalism, effectively merging into a new whole. An emense power supporting and controling virtually all aspects of our lives, and we end up as both the children and slaves of the state, in our new 'fuedal/capitalist model.

writeon
13 February 2009 at 12:59

The US in not going through some temporary crisis. The US crisis is fundamental and systemic. It is the end of an era, the era of American world dominance. Economically they are very, very, weak and incredibly indebted. Their level of spending and consumption is unsustainable. The American model is collapsing. All they really have left, apart from the vibrancy of their culutural production, is their vast military machine, bigger than the next twenty countries put together.

But can a bankrupt model sustain such massive levels of military expenditure much longer? Is the cost of the American Empire to big? The US could make a radical break with the past and divert precious resources from maintenance of the Empire back towards the homeland, only is this realistic? Isn't it far more likely that the US will attempt, like Britain, to use its military might to fight against the tide of history and maintain its dominant world position by force if necessary?

poulter
13 February 2009 at 13:39

A sound article.

Interesting that the catastrophists read NS too (cf Carl Jones, too racked by LOLling to contribute usefully)

JohnChwth
13 February 2009 at 15:14

Just look at todays HBOS announcement and the plummeting price of Lloyds. So much bad dept from the mantra that globalisation was the way forward. This article I fear is correct.

Gorseinonboy
13 February 2009 at 15:50

Hi Fairplay ~ You commented as below. What is the evidence for your claims?

We need to first look at overpopulation, then unsustainable use of resources, then equity regarding wages, pensions and allowances so that all can have a living wage, and be sustained to the degree they can contribute to the planet's wellbeing."

we need a revolution. we need guillotines. we need the people running things behind the scenes and in the shadows to be brought to book. we need to declare unilateral war on the CFR and tri lateral commission. we need to lead more spiritual lives. we need less bling. we need better education. we need liberty. geez, we need a hell of a lot. who took all these things away from us in the first place?

obama is being shown for what he is ie the new tony blair. a wolf in sheeps clothing. and what with these massive bailouts continuing how long before the disillusioned and possibly violently frustrated public says enough is enough and the government has to unleash the attack dogs on them. this will get very messy and mark my words another pearl harbour/911 is being planned and about to be unleashed on us by the powers that be just in time for them to "save us" and take all our eyes off th ball at exactly the right time. that is their only way out of this mess

jsophieh
14 February 2009 at 07:00

hi

i am a frequent reader of your site.please if it is possible for you provide the audio files completely

thanks

Camus
14 February 2009 at 07:31

Mornin Karl, how you doin? Let's take a liberal's

perspective on the situation. The liberal will tell you

that the crisis is a healthy sign that the system (sic)

corrects itself; that the defence mechanisms kick in

and deal with the crisis when allowed to operate 'free

of government interference.' the crisis began

because the free market rule was set aside by, yes,

Bush in the wake of 9/11 and the credit wave pushed

to new heights by the state intereference. The long

term result is the current 'turn-down' and the

consequent drop in growth levels as the credit bubble

bursts and the market forces re-assert themsleves.

Now argue against that.

Pencils
14 February 2009 at 11:17

All Jacques is saying here, at enormous and pompous length, is that the political classes believed that the UK was specially loved by capitalism and so couldn't be hurt by the obvious consequences of Thatcher's removing currency controls. They DIDN'T believe this! They took the money, and lied to the mugs. Jacques was one of them; he's effectively just excusing himself here, and feeling around for a new brand name for his vapid outpourings. Ex-public-school, Oxbridge, chair(?) of the Communist party, (anyone smell MI5 yet?), one of the founders of Democratic Left Magazine ( vapid Thatcher-lite identity politics - with other ex-commies like Stuart Hall, and Hobsbawm, who jumped ship when the Soviet Union went down), cheerleader and variously involved in the roots of New Labour. Lived in Asia for a while (?). Came back to set us right.

Well, if we except that his heart is really in the right place, and he really didn't see this coming, we should maybe ask ourselves: if he was so wrong for so long, perhaps he is not someone to look to for guidance?

Carl Jones
14 February 2009 at 12:05

It appears that any substantial comment by me is being censored.

writeon
14 February 2009 at 12:48

This crisis has the potential to be worse than the Great Depression if it isn't handled properly and resolutely, and probably most importantly, in time. Unfortunately our leaders have wasted valuable time trying to maintain the water level in a bucket, by pouring more and more water into it, instead of reparing the hole in the bottom.

In the 1930's the United State's economy was, despite the financial crash, basically sound. There was massive potential for growth, wealth creation and improvements in society. The US had the world's largest manufacturing sector, plentiful supplies of almost every raw material, it was the world's largest creditor nation, it had a strong balance of payments sitation, the national debt was tiny, Americans had substantial savings ready to be tapped, it was the world's largest producer of oil and gas, it wasn't involved in wasteful and expensive foreign wars. In short, there was enormous potential for economic growth and progress.

Today things are very, very, different. Almost everything I mentioned above, no longer applies, in fact they have mostly been reversed. The US has gone from being a rich, producing nation, to a massively indebted consuming nation. It's balance of payment deficit is heading for 2 to 3 trillion dollars a year. It's position in the world has been reversed and this has profound implications, and not just for the US.

What this means is that a far, far, weaker US is going to find it immeasurbly more difficult to pull itself out of the slump it is inexorably sliding into.

How will the United States finance its budget deficit? Will the Keynesian cure work this time around? I have my doubts. I believe the current crisis is too big for even Keynes. However, this is a massive subject to get into here, an alternative not just to the neo-liberal dogma of the last thirty years, but an alternative to Keynes as well, phew!

writeon
14 February 2009 at 13:12

Essentially Keynes was trying to save capitalism from itself; from its own inner contradictions and structural flaws. Like the tendancy for competition to result in falling rates of profit, and the transfer of capital from production to various speculative bubbles that eventually collapse with terrible consequences for society, or, put another way, are the booms worth the price of the busts, especially if they lead to world wars?

For the sake of argument let's accept that Keynes's ideas worked in the 1930's, and it wasn't really WW2 that ended the Great Depression, a very depressing thought! Will Kenynes work this time? I doubt it very much. Simply because the vortex of debt is far, far, bigger than the ability of any government, or combination of governments to fill the black hole. That's just one aspect of the problems we face.

Whilst the Great Depression could be described as a depression that could be fixed by ideas, by gaining confidence and moving forward through reforms to a system, capitalism, that had enormous, latent, productive potential; today things are different.

Today we face far more intractable, structural problems, which have concrete causes. For example our massive over-exploitation of the world's resources, the costs of climate change, the world's rapidly rising population, environmental degredation. We're squeezing the last few drops out of the lemon, so getting out of a second Great Depression is going to be difficult, if not impossible, using the economic growth engine, or model.

Essentially the liberal 'empty world' economic growth model that's been around for three centuries, no longer works, or describes reality. The premise of infinite growth on an seemingly infinite planet, no longer applies, because our planet isn't infinite, it's finite, as are its resources.

In short, this crisis is a structural, civilizational, crisis, of a kind and scale that Keynes couldn't have dreamed of in his worst nightmare.

Carl Jones
14 February 2009 at 16:12

Lets see if they censor this.LOL

writeon, I think you are over doing it, if I may say "repeating yourself. :)

The NS won`t give us the article[s] which will ask the the serious qusetions and this is the reason why so many people who comment here, are chasing their own tails getting nowhere.

I don`t know if this number has been in the British media, but the US Federal Reserve liabilities are now greater than the entire global GDP (pre crisis about $50 trillion) and stands at over $64 trillion.lol

I thing its fair to say that there is no chance of recovery as we understand it.

Instead of getting bogged down in current events. Many of which are decoys, like the MSM bonus agenda. We should concentrate on what the future will bring. Some of you seem to think we can grab some sort of "off the shelf" historical solution. There aren`t any!

The Great Depression was a US affair which affected Europe. This time, it is global and we were already upto our necks in debt before it started and someone has already called this "The Greater Depression".

Some of the come lately boys are now paralleling 1929 with today, but there is another parallel.

Amerika is the new Germany..rigged Bush elections have left many Americans angry and bitter. they were fooled at the mid-term elections and Palosi backed Bush. So they were desperate for "change" and Obama promised this. "Change and hope"...can you see the parallel with 1930s Germany? Is Obama the new Hitler, like Hitler, Obama had/has massive corporate support, a complict MSM brianwashing machine, ironic rallies in Berlin...nice touch.LOL All Obama needs now is a Reichstag style event, such as another staged terror attack and the US will become a DICTATORSHIP.

Germany-Japan, Amerika-Israel, are we seeing another 1030s senario, but moving at twice, maybe three times the pace.

Carl Jones
14 February 2009 at 16:13

Censored again. They don`t want you to know.lol

Camus
14 February 2009 at 16:22

Hi Carl, +

You sound like a real grouch this afternoon - or do you

just want to raise a few hackles? Tell me please what it

is that 'they' don't want us to know? Try again.

Carl Jones
14 February 2009 at 17:49

Can`t do more than a line, or I get censored. How can I sound like a grouch when I`ve not been able to comment??LOL

Gerry Myer
14 February 2009 at 18:03

Writeon; I think you are right on the mark in drawing attention to the essential differences between this and the 1930s depression. According to today's News the new Messiah is promising our transatlantic cousins more GROWTH. He obviously has not got the message about the finite planet.

Carl: Here's one for the paranoid. Have you noticed that "writeon" is an anagram of "NWO tier"? He needs to be watched carefully!

Nilsey105
14 February 2009 at 20:00

Writeon

"..The US has gone from being a rich, producing nation, to a massively indebted consuming nation...this has profound implications....What this means is that a far, far, weaker US is going to find it immeasurbly more difficult to pull itself out of the slump it is inexorably sliding into. "

All this i find extremely misleading and consider the oposite to be the reality of the situation. If you compare Germany and Britain, ( keep in mind the UK and the USA are virually in the same boat), right at this present point in time The Uk has a deficit in almost all its areas of financial activity, whilst at the same time the situation in Germany is the other side of the coin.

Germany has a surplus of finances, the UK a massive deficit.

But who right now is in the worse position and is seen as going to have a longer and deeper crisis. No not the UK but Germany.

Its like those who have savings in banks at present , they are in receipt of no or very little interest and therefore gain very little. But at the same time those with a big tracker mortgages are now owed money on those mortgages by their building societies because the interest to be paid is in a negative situation.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/stephanieflanders/20...

Nilsey105
14 February 2009 at 20:20

This is a good read ;

http://www.newleftreview.org/?getpdf=NLR28901&pdflang=en

Nilsey105
14 February 2009 at 21:09

LOL this peice highlights what i have said from the begining of participating in the comments on NS.

Namely that behind the crisis is the Basle Agreements 1 and 2.

Nice to think a rag tag welder can be on the same level as " A PhD in Quantitative Financial Analysis " lmao.

Nilsey105
14 February 2009 at 21:10

ooooops again and no Cab/ Sav as yet lol.

http://www.theaaa-bomb.blogspot.com/

writeon
14 February 2009 at 21:31

Nilsey105,

Did you really write the above comment? It doesn't sound like you. I don't understand it at all, what does it mean?

I was commenting on the United States, not Germany. I don't really understand why you have brought up Germany at all. What's the point of that?

You can't mean that the UK which is bust, with such weak economy, that exports so little, that relies dispropotionally on the financial services sector, that has such large balance of payments deficit; is going to recover quicker than Germany, that has far lower levels of debt, and a strong manufacturing base, and is, relative to its size, the world's largest exporter.

How could being in far better position than the UK, on almost all fronts, make Germany's position worse?

I don't understand how I'm being 'extremely misleading' about the United States economy. I'm only stating facts after all, how can that be misleading? You say that reality is the opposite of what I write, how can this be true? The United States is objectively, emperically, far weaker economically than it was sixty years ago in a whole range of areas. It's mired in a debt quagmire, it has become a collosal importer of oil and gas, it's manufacturing base is shot, it's developed a hugely wasteful and massively expensive empire, it's military expenditure has expanded enormously... do I need to go on? How are these things a sign of a healthy economy, ready to bounce back?

writeon
14 February 2009 at 21:37

Carl, you've obviously taken over Nilsey105's identity to fool the censor, but you can't hide from me. Good luck with that!

Carl Jones
14 February 2009 at 21:48

Gerry, I unfortunately had a long period of BBC trianing on their forums and am FULLY aware that I could be conversing with computers, SIS geeks and any t ype of political activist...they were on the BBC and I`m sure they are here.LOL

There has been a recent policy of ignoring me, this again is repeat of my BBC years, this occoured after I claimed "writeon`s" first writer was away and the second was rather poor.LOL

We (the people) didn`t understand 1929, we didn`t stop the 2nd World War...we haven`t stopped the crash of 2008 and the Greater Depression of 2009/10, extennding until 2020+. I am under no illusion that we won`t be able to stop the ensuing wars and population reduction that IS coming.

Again, I`m not entirely convinced that I have exposure. But this does not mean I should give up, as their will be many NWO employees who are having ALTERNATIVE thoughts....so listen, THEY are desperate. January 2008 attempted assassination od Gordon Brown, 22 Bank of Amerika executives on the Hudson ditching and now a major threat to the 9/11 construct has been removed in a plane crash near Buffalo.

Hitler appeared invincible, but this did not stop Hess. Just because Hitler and Churchill were finger puppets on the same NWO hand, does not mean we can`t win a second time.

Carl Jones
14 February 2009 at 22:04

writeon, you are a good writer, but you are falling behnd, you are a DEFENDER of the NWO.LOL ENOUGH SAID.LO

Carl Jones
15 February 2009 at 08:11

Nilsey105

You are incorrect, the repeal of the Glass-Steagall Act (1933) on the 12th November 1999 was the key to this crisis. The G-SA was introduced specifically to keep the investment banks away from the wider financial community. This is the reason why todays financial system is totally infected.

SisterKaff
15 February 2009 at 11:33

This article is only half right, it's not all the neo-libs' fault, western industrialized economies have grown obese on fossil fuels, and is now dependent on oil - I mean totally DEPENDENT on oil, for everything we need starting with industrial agriculture… So even had things carried on hunky dunky with continued growth as before 2007-8, and never mind the debt etc, we'll still be stuffed in a decade or so when all the oil gets used up!!! and all the other resources…

I saw all this coming, that's why I'm not remotely invested in this stupid society.

Nilsey105
15 February 2009 at 13:22

writeon

i am saying it will be easier for the USA and the UK to come out of the recession than it will for Germany.

Nilsey105
15 February 2009 at 13:59

Carl

The removal of regulation embodied within the Glass-Steagall Act allowed a free for all.

It did not create, nor allow the conditions, for those tools embodied within both Basle agreements to emerge and crystalise and create the havoc to date.

Specifically i refer to the Shadow Banking phenomina and the use of Off Balance Sheet Accounting, known under the notion of, "regualatory arbitrage" .

Basle 1, the Basle Accord, of 1998 pre dates the repeal of the Glass-Seagall Act of 1999.

Nilsey105
15 February 2009 at 14:08

Its the amount of toxic debt that is the problem not, as some want us to believe, the banks not lending.

If the exact amounts, of toxic debts, become known then the worlds financial systems will totally implode This would pave the way for the greatest wave of destruction ever to be carried through by human hands.

Think about it.

i am going to the pub to watch the footy. lol

Nilsey105
15 February 2009 at 14:14

Basle 1 dont forget was conceived, formulated,and written up into a legal document by the International Brotherhood Bankers in Switzerland in 1998.

That fits in rather cosilly with your conspiracy theory.LMAO.

Camus
15 February 2009 at 15:18

Carl:

"THEY are desperate. January 2008 attempted

assassination od Gordon Brown, 22 Bank of Amerika

executives on the Hudson ditching and now a major

threat to the 9/11 construct has been removed in a

plane crash near Buffalo."

Who are THEY? When was this assassination attempt

and why didin't I read about it? and what "threat" was

removed in that crash? Questions, questions,

Carl Jones
15 February 2009 at 18:31

BTW Camus, I`m still waiting for the police to call by after reporting the attempted assassination of Gordon Brown....ice crystals in the fuel...LOL

http://www.prisonplanet.com/911-cover-up-connection-black-bo...

http://blogs.villagevoice.com/runninscared/archives/2009/02/...

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-flight3407-transcript...

http://www.911independentcommission.org/questions.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pgv80f0_MVU

Carl Jones
15 February 2009 at 18:39

Obama claims he wants his administration to be open and honest...this is easy, kill them in plane crashes.LOL

Carl Jones
15 February 2009 at 19:34

Now we have two whistle blowers who claim their bosses weren`t interested in protecting their businesses from RISK...this if you didn`t know, is a CONSPIRACY.LOL

Lets examin the role of secret services in this crisis. MI6/MI5 and the CIA monitor the markets, they can block or ok deals and they employ a good number of financiers. The SIS`s basic brief is to protect the interests of the country....considering that finance is the major UK wealth generator, you`d think it would be high on MI6`s list.

But who`s interests are they interested in? Is it you and I? If you think the answer is "yes", then we`ve had two massive intelligence failures in one decade. Do we see the police chasing bankers at the behest of the SIS? NO!! LOL

So its clear that the economic welfare on 60 million Brits, 300, million Amerikans...what the heck, they don`t give a monkeys about 6 billion people. No, MI6`s only interest is working for the continuing power and GREED of the Rothschild, Rockefellers, Warbergs and Morgans to name a few top players....this is confirmed by the lack of police activity in the City and further confirmed by the fact that the bank chiefs were following a policy of assured destruction...a policy set out by their NWO masters.LOL

The politicians (NWO puppets) and MSM (owned and controlled by the NWO) focus on BONUSES.... is small beer, compared to the bailouts and liquidity njections. The bonus farce is a decoy.

We are on the cusp of another major financial shock. We are likely to see currency devaluations bringing about a major drop in living standards.

As I said many months ago, Blair, Brown, Darling, senior FSA officials and leading Bank of England players should be removed from office and arrested by the police....but who`s going to arrest the head of MI6.....007?

fairplay
16 February 2009 at 17:09

.but who`s going to arrest the head of MI6.....007?

batman!

Carl Jones
16 February 2009 at 17:09

The crisis was unforseen was it...this chap was warned 18 months ago to reduce his debt exposure.LOL

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2009/feb/15/duke-westmins...

Carl Jones
16 February 2009 at 17:14

fairplay...who is the Joker?

writeon
17 February 2009 at 07:41

I think this crisis reveals, in stark clarity, who really runs Britain. The banks control and run Britain, not the government. Effectively the government is over a barrel. The banks are on strike and demanding to be saved, on their terms, or they will allow the entire economy to suffer.

In reality, the entire 'ruling, capitalist class' is bust. The giant speculative, financial, bubble, they have profitted from over the last thirty odd years has burst, leaving them high and dry. Yet these people, a tiny minority, who have run the country like they own, which I suppose they do, can simply go to the government and demand vast 'social security' payments, paid for by everyone else, to protect their wealth and power, from their own reckless and irresponsible speculations.

And this is the core problem. The government are prioritizing the narrow, economic, class interests, of the financial aristocracy, above those of the rest of society combined. Perhaps 5% of the country rules over the other 95%. It's this powerful minority that really counts, everybody else is really only along for the ride, as they don't have any real power in a society ruled by money, not votes.

Carl Jones
17 February 2009 at 08:17

writeon

You contadict youself. "The banks control and run Britain", not true.

"The government are prioritizing the narrow, economic, class interests, of the financial aristocracy"...getting closer, so now you are talking about the elite of the elite. So its not the heads of these banks persay, as they are willing to publically fall on their swards...so its not the bankers, its not the politicians and I think you are being generous with 5%. I would say its a sliding scale. The top 20% support the SYSTEM, often unknowingly, because they are brianwashed by the DEMOCRACY construct. Of that 20%, about 5% are deeply embedded and they support the true elite which number about 5000 people, mostly in the elite families...these people make their money during economic downturns and wars. Its a real sham that you keep repeating yourself with slightly different wording...if I were paranoid, I believe you were a machine?:)

DonRobertson
17 February 2009 at 16:06

The downturn is the first truly global scientific depression.

Few people can fathom what this means until it is full blown.

All our scientifically developed mechanisms for supporting our bloated populations are failing. These include bureaucracies, and, governments.

This is a catastrophe. A billion people will die. This was both predictable and avoidable.

"The New Epistemology of Morality and Truth" is a philosophic look at the failure of our empirical society, and what is the alternative.

The alternative is a non-relative secular morality, and, Categorical Knowledge, a new knowledge set that is preeminent over all scientific knowledge.

Google it. Get on track.

Camus
17 February 2009 at 16:21

Thanks for the links, Carl. I have looked at them and I

can't say that I am convinced. Anything on Youtube is

automatically suspect. The Village Voice is good on

Manhatten but doesn't seem to understand the world

outside.

Write-on: you seem to be stuck in a UK mould. Surely

the crisis is a world-wide one - the UK moguls are

saving themselves but that is really not new. The kind

of crisis that we are running into questions the whole

economic basis - and the UK moguls had better

believe it.

PFandGF
17 February 2009 at 17:02

Listen, the time for "getting ready" for what is coming is

quickly coming to an end...

check out: www.prepareforandgainfrom.com

Bilejones
17 February 2009 at 20:16

It is astonishing that people are talking about "free market capitalism". The economic system that's been in place in both the US and UK since the 1930's if fascism, "The merging of State and Corporate interests", to quote Mussolini.

Carl Jones
17 February 2009 at 23:10

Allen Stanford...another NWO decoy out of the hat....and for my next trick.........

Nilsey105
17 February 2009 at 23:32

Talking of decoys, i think this whole sharade of Gordon Brown jumping up and down stamping his feet at the bankers bonus schemes, has been a contrived scheme to get his ratings up in the polls.

Nilsey105
17 February 2009 at 23:35

Stanford is another Maddoff. His banking system in Antigua is only a Ponzi scheme so it has been reported on the news at 10.

Carl Jones
17 February 2009 at 23:56

Hehehehehehe

http://www.theinternationalforecaster.com/International_Fore...

Carl Jones
18 February 2009 at 00:03

Nilsey105

And how many more rabbits do they have waiting in the hat...MSM fodder, while the bankers, regulators, politicians and central bankers buy themselves time. Its like taking candy from a baby.LOL

nebbertron
18 February 2009 at 18:43

Copy editing advice:

Since the collapse of Northern and the first intimations of the credit crunch, we have lived through an incomprehensible crisis, the potential ramifications of which nobody has been able to grasp.

Sounds better.

Nilsey105
18 February 2009 at 19:51

Is competition no longer the driving force of capitalism?

No longer is competition the engine that drives capitalism ever forward and up.

Evidence for this dates back to the big bang in the City of London.

The new driving force of the British economy is a system of payments by results, a bonus

system.

It so widespread within the world of work everyone is wanting their slice of the cake. A

normal salary/wage structure is not enough. There has to be a carrot dangled to increase

performance.

The present credit crisis has brought out into the open the obscene amounts of bonus the

financial sector has been paying itself.

In addition we discover that certain civil servants are now on the gravy train of payments

by results. For crying out loud whatever for.

These people have jobs that are extremely well paid so why are they in need of a bonus

system to enhance their already bloated salaries?

Is it that they are not paid a fair days pay for a fair days work? Or is the fact of the

matter these are more greedy philistines jumping on the gravy train that is milking the tax

payer dry?

I feel we are near the end of the road.

Toleration of the greed that pervades public service and the higher reaches of the private sector within the UK has worn out.

If people are not being paid a fair days pay for a fair days work then that has to change.

If they are being paid fairly and want more then let them go elswhere and see thay they can get.

There is not one person who is indespesible. We can all be replaced in our work situations. This is something the working class have had to contend with for ever and a day it has been they who have been the ones to be made redundant in times of economic downturns, until this crisis.

Nilsey105
18 February 2009 at 20:38

Here yeh go chaps and chapesses make your input on the London Summit;

http://www.londonsummit.gov.uk/en/join-the-debate/

Nilsey105
18 February 2009 at 20:38

Oh if you get a sign in box just click ok 3 or 4 times to enter.

icurhuman2
19 February 2009 at 07:06

The endemic corruption of the financial sector could have lasted much longer were it not for the peaking in supply of a vast range of essential industrial base commodities. The oil spike and supply restrictions associated with the oil price and supply peak just prior to the financial collapse was no coincidence at all, and the market reaction has supplied a demand destroying way to extend the various supply peaks with a bumpy plateau .

There will be no recovery without an increase in energy and base mineral supplies - something which will not happen again, ever. All historical economic modelling presupposes an unlimited supply of commodity supply and industrial expansion, which is now obviously erronious. Any return to business as usual - as in the end of The Great Depression - will not have the plentiful oil, gas, copper, silver, gold, platinum, phosphates or even topsoil to return growth to our wasteful, inequitable and mostly non-recyclable society.

I'm more curious about what sort of declining economic system might return our way of life to a sustainable and equitable form, or, if that is even possible.

Mysterion
19 February 2009 at 10:44

There is not a political alternative lying in the wings that is apparent but the new socio-political ideology will be PROUT - the Progressive Utilisation Theory that has predicted this crisis and understands the relationship between the intelelctual, warrior, manual and commercialist class. Nothing comes near PROUT. See prof. Ravi Batra on youtube.. who wrote

the downfall of Communism and Capitalism and Greenspans' Fraud...... he lies our hope...something

better not worse........

papigosh
19 February 2009 at 11:02

BALANCED PIECE BUT CHINESE ARE NO SAINTS

Thanks Martin and wecome to NS. As a simpleton, this did it for me,

The ruling class 'are still clinging to the wreckage of their old ideas while in the next breath claim that these no longer works' ! It is called speaking from both sides of ones mouth, a well known characteristic trait when one has completely run out of ideas. This is true of New Labour inspite of Lord Mandelson and the Tories inspite of the big beast Ken Clarke. One shining light is Vince Cable, unfortunately his party LibDem remain unconvinced.

Back to the ongoing crisis, why do we appear to be surprised about the collusion of the CREDIT-RATING AGENCIES with our TOXIC BANKS? These so called CREDIT-RATING AGENCIES are a direct product of the BANKS and INVESTMENT COMPANIES and ALL OF THEIR BOOKS are BALANCED by their KITH and KIN in KPMG, DELLOITE and TOUCHE and other 'respectable' ACCOUNTING and AUDITING firms operating from the city of LONDON and MANHANTAN. They are one and the same especially as these firms are also charged with head-hunting 'brilliant minds' into the banks and investment companies.

As for the RECESSION metamorphosing into a fully fledged DEPRESSION, the cat was let out of the bag by Gordon Brown by 'that slip of tongue' in the house of common. A no brainer.

And talking about CORRUPTION, it is refreshing to see that some in the western world are beginning to see what was there ALL ALONG. CORRUPTION is and has always been SYSTEMIC and ENDEMIC in the WEST. That there has been no LARGE SCALE prosecution and convictions IS ANOTHER MATTER ENTIRELY. Has there been any prosecution relating to an illegal war in IRAQ? Does this make the Iraq war legal?

And finally, the CHINESE may be the beneficiary of the downturn in the world economy, but i must warn that they are begining to show signs of aggressive IMPERIALISTIC TENDENCIES in the forgotten continent of AFRICA. It is only a matter of time before the Chinese invade AFRICA.

amanfromMars
20 February 2009 at 12:17

"As I said many months ago, Blair, Brown, Darling, senior FSA officials and leading Bank of England players should be removed from office and arrested by the police....but who`s going to arrest the head of MI6.....007?" ... Carl Jones 15 February 2009 at 19:34

A vital job for MI5 and the Military, CJ, should they have the necessary Command and Control Leadership, for there is no doubt that they would have both the Logistical and National Support ...... which would then suggest that they take their Instructions from the Failures in the City should the Rot continue.

Is Scarlett still MI6 head wonk/figurehead and what of the new JIC chief, Alex Allan. How is he recovering after his mysterious "illness" ...... http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article4266396.ece

And when is Charles Windsor due out of nappies? Maybe then we'll see some Right Royal action to be proud of, albeit Plausibly Denied of course.

And should a remedy from what would be considered traditional forces in times of troubles and unrest not be exercised, thus proving a gross dereliction of both perceived and real duty, then one can surely expect it to be provided by most irregular and more unconventional means.

In fact, one might even expect them to Advise and Liaise in a Joint Intelligence Campaign and even refer this Facility to them via their Public Portal ..... .https://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/contact-form.html?subject=Repo...

One would reasonably have expected their Intelligence activities/information analytics to have picked up any such activities though, and if they haven't, well then that is something for them to consider adding to their arsenal and armoury for they are so rendered vulnerable and dangerously exposed to such Field Exercises and/or Virtual Games.

Do they not have a CyberSpace Field Command for Virtual Control of Force and Currency Powers? How very remiss/short sighted of them.

Fortunately, it is an Oversight very easily Immediately Remedied

yebiga
20 February 2009 at 15:51

For give me, I am missing something. If this market collapse/recession/depression is caused by financial excess, why does that justify dismantling the entire free market economy and replacing it with bigger government. Are governments immune from excess?

Suggesting we may all need to go back and read Marx is a little glib - undergraduate even. But as I said, I am obviously missing something.

For my part, this uber economic theorising and prognostication is symptomatic of the muddleheadedness which is the cause of our present market failure.

When we were back in 2005, 2006, and 2007 could anyone honestly say, with hand on heart, that they did'nt here the litte voice inside their head screaming "these propertyprices are mad". "these share market returns are extraordinary". Collectively, we chose to ignore that voice.

Understanding how we got here and where we go from here is simply a matter of listening to that voice. Understanding why we don't, have'nt or can't is how we prevent it re-occuring.

In less esoteric words: we are cowards - collectively we have acquiesced to a devils bargain with multi-national corporates; they employ us, own us and feed us. Our lifestyle is their sales pitch. And no matter how nonsensical the pitch we buy it.

Anyone who works for one of these monstrosities, knows first hand the fawning muddleheadness which has long replaced the clear thinking energy of the organisations formative years. The hollow suits which parrot meaningless cant have the excessive resources to infect all parts of the culture and the body politic.

In return: we get a bigger tv

yebiga
20 February 2009 at 15:54

Becareful this culture is not limited to our financial institutions - after almost two decades of globalisations it is ubiquitous

AlfredMarshall
21 February 2009 at 06:27

Excellent analysis by Mr Jacques, but he focusses on the symptons rather than the disease.

The disease is the failure to understand how value is created in a service economy.

Value in a service economy is created by the constructive interaction of people as suppliers, consumers, family members and citizens.

To maximise value creation, power in corporations and the state should be inverted to liberate people as suppliers, consumers, family members and citizens to create value.

That means converting all companies into employee partnerships in which surpluses are shared equitably.

That in turn requires abolishing all corporate structures, principally the board and the management heirarchy which are value-destroying.

Service companies don't need capital. So all debt and capital markets should be closed.

All cross-border capital flows should be stopped.

All savings within individual economies should be centralised and state-managed.

The functions of the banking system, which are digitially to record what people spend, consume and save, should be centralised into a single computer that should be state-controlled and connected electronically to all points of commerce (point of sale outlets).

All banks should be closed. The Bank of England should be abolished and the FSA closd down.

The teaching of economics should cease other than as a branch of logic.

All business schools should close.

The beautiful older buildings of the City, the stock exchange, mansion house and others should be converted into museums and theatres.

And the City of London should be restored to its original purpose: a place where people live.

Chuck Canuk
21 February 2009 at 07:43

Discretionary spending is under water and sinking rapidly

Malls are all discretionary in nature, and are closing up all over.

We need to learnHow to survive a depression

Read this quote...

"We are spending more money than we have ever spent before, and it does not work. After eight years we have just as much unemployment as when we started, and an enormous debt to boot. - U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Morgenthau...May 1939

Note the date...

http://www.ThisGreatDepression.com

Diogenes
26 February 2009 at 16:08

It's time now for ordinary people to realise that, they have no greater standing today, than did peasants of the middle ages. More sophisticated chattels and more sophisticated feudalism--is all. What has changed enormously, is that, the world is owned and bought and sold several times over--so think of what you might buy on a minimum wage? Large hot potato sir--only half a groat?

bben
04 April 2009 at 16:15

Policy makers can only hope to partially mitigate the effects of the (now mostly chaotic) integral financial system. All the reactionary measures have only contributed to the harmonic oscillations. So where do we look for a solution when the masters of the world can only act as a damper? The answer lies within each and every singe person, for it is our very nature that is being revealed through the (now) fully integral world system. To solve the problem, and prevent future crisis we must understand that every action we make will have some effect on the collective. By understanding our interconnection and interdependence we will learn the best actions for the individual are not mutually exclusive to the interests of the collective. Michael Laitman is on the forefront of explaining our new integral reality and providing a framework for the future. We are at a point of evolve or die.

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About the writer

Martin Jacques

Martin Jacques is a journalist and academic. He is currently a visiting fellow at the London School of Economics Asia Research Centre and at the National University of Singapore. Jacques previously edited Marxism Today and co-founded the think-tank Demos in 1993. He writes the World Citizen column for the New Statesman. His new book on the rise of China, When China Rules the World, will be published in June.

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