Nelson Jones

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Gay marriage and church politics

Who speaks for the Church of England?

David Cameron has pledged to introduce gay marriage before 2015.
The Church of England has declared its opposition to government plans to introduce gay marriage. Photograph: Getty Images.

Few will be surprised, though many will be disappointed, that the Church of England has come out vehemently against the government's proposals to allow same-sex marriage.  

The document released by the Church today claims that its opposition to the measure does not prejudge "continuing theological and ethical debate" within the institution over the status of same-sex relationships. However, in language very similar to that employed by the Catholic bishops earlier this year, the text stresses the importance of traditional marriage for the common good of society, argues that "complementarity" of the sexes (and the goal of procreation) undergirds it and takes the view that characterises the proposal as a "fundamental redefinition" of marriage.  

The first thing to note is that this official statement does not reflect the view of "the Church of England" because the Church of England, as such, does not have a view.  The statement has not been voted on by the General Synod or even offered to the Synod for comment.  It implies a unity of opinion among Anglican Christians that simply does not exist.  A majority of British Christians in fact support equal rights for gay people. The manner in which it was released is also quite striking.  The statement was, however, heavily trailed by a number of newspapers sympathetic to its general line, accompanied by comments, some off the record, by its authors. One of them took advantage of anonymity to describe the proposals as "shallow" and "half-baked".  On the record, the Bishop of Leicester warned in slightly more measured tones of "a situation in which civil law and canon law are at odds".

An accompanying press release claimed that the Church of England "has supported the removal of previous legal and material inequities between heterosexual and same-sex partnerships".  This is simply not true.  When civil partnerships were being introduced in 2004, six bishops voted against the proposal in the House of Lords, with only one (the then bishop of Oxford) voting in favour.  Conservative voices in the church made the same arguments - and raised much the same apocalyptic fears - then against civil partnerships as they are making now against equalising marriage.

Taken together, then, the statement and the accompanying media blitz are as much a part of internal church politics as they are an attempt to raise actual problems with the proposed legislation.  

Nevertheless, the document is worth considering on its own merits.  The most interesting sections are those that concern the legal implications of the change.  The authors are right, I think, to suggest that it is doubtful that the continuation of same-sex only civil partnership would be legally sustainable.  Indeed, the refusal to allow heterosexual couples the option of having a civil partnership instead of a marriage is for me the single most objectionable (and irrational) part of the government's proposals.  The C of E statement is also right to point out the illogicality of allowing religious premises to host civil partnership ceremonies while forbidding them from conducting same-sex marriages even when they wish to do so.  

Much attention today has focused on the possible implications of same-sex marriage on the constitutional position of the Church of England.  The document claims that, since there is no legal distinction between civil marriage and religious marriage (as opposed to civil and religious weddings), if the government's changes went ahead traditional marriage,

would in effect have been abolished and replaced by a new statutory concept which the Church – and many outside the Church – would struggle to recognise as amounting to marriage at all. A man and a woman who wished to enter into the traditional institution of marriage would no longer have the opportunity to do so.

This is, to say the least, a remarkably alarmist way of putting the matter.  There are real questions concerning the role of Anglican clergy as registrars: it could be argued, and no doubt will be, that their obligation to perform marriages for their parishioners ought to extend to same-sex couples.  But as the document goes on to admit, it is in practice highly unlikely that the European Court of Human Rights would intervene to force unwilling churches to marry people of the same sex - who would, after all, be able to achieve the same status via a civil ceremony. (A right to get married is not the same as a right to a particular style of wedding.)  Where the Courts might step in is in relation to the proposed bar on allowing churches to conduct same-sex marriages should they wish to do so.

This, I think, is the central fear behind the Church of England's official response to the consultation process. In Denmark, legislation has recently been passed allowing for same sex marriages in the country's established Lutheran church, subject to an opt-out for clergy who have conscientious objection to the idea. There's no prospect in sight of such a move being made in this country.  Whatever fears are being expressed today, the Church of England's role as the Established church no longer means (as it once did) that the state dictates what it should believe or how it should organise itself.  But if same-sex marriage goes through, there will be pressure from liberal Anglican clergy who would like the right to conduct weddings of gay couples.  Indeed, mainstream opposition within the church is likely to decline once same-sex marriage has become established and Anglicans notice that the Apocalypse has not arrived.

34 comments

vbestic's picture

This gay marriage idea is really horible to me. I think it should be restricted.

It's just my opinion, no offence :)

Iain Parkes's picture

It should be pointed out that Jesus never actually said anything about homosexuality being wrong and he did spend most of his time hanging out with fit young men... ;)

JeremiahVaughan's picture

Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God and is against Christian teaching and history worldwide. Homosexuals are welcome in Church provided they stop sinning and repent. Practicing homosexuals CANNOT be married in Church. I can understand if you say you are not a Christian and you don't believe in God but dont waste your time trying to persuade us Christians that we should allow homosexuals to marry in church. http://www.squidoo.com/best-double-jogging-strollers-reviews

McMac's picture

This short filum http://bit.ly/MlYPY7 explains the dangers of allowing same sex marriage, including the inevitable 'parrots trapped in loveless marriage with bird fanciers.'

Claudine 's picture

To Malcolm etc too:

Why do the Hypocritical 'Hetrosexuals' like raping, mutalating, we saw through our window one night the neighbours in London were watching 'people' having sex with animals, others including children and babies, who do NOT want to have sex with them?

Why are you NOT criticizing them?
The Church Buildings are empty anyawy, and you lot do NOT even attend the serviecs either, and 'heterosexuals' get Divorced too, - so their 'marriages' are definitly NOT Perferct, so Why deny Gay people the right to attend services and to Marry in a Church?

IF you ALL were decent let alone perfect, then you could discriminate and hate others, but you certainly are NOT!

LET THEM BE AS THEY ARE HARMING NOBODY & CHECK OUT YOUR OWN SINS!

Thanks

John Das's picture

I just happened to read you comment and I disagree. Some church buildings might be empty or whatever, but most churches want to expand, even the church I go to. We are in fact looking to buy a good church (with parking space).

Secondly, just because you somone sin doe not mean we all go on a 'sinning spree'. What's a 'sin' remains a 'sin' whatever name you call it. So don't jump on the bandwagon calling me anti-homosexuals. What I mean is you don't have to go against nature. Is man supposed to have sex with another man? What's the result? Satisfaction? Then one can have sex with apes too. There's satisfaction for both parties. And then adopt children too? There are all sorts of faults with man and nature, we have to live with it and pray about it. There is no need to promote and justify what is wrong. A sin remains a sin.

Malcolmpullen's picture

I condemn them unresevedly

I condemn my own sins of which there are many. I ask God for forgiveness and the strength to avoid sinning again. All Christians sin but they try and do better next time. They try and sometimes they succeed and sometimes they fail. What I do not do is ask God to rewrite his laws to make my sins acceptable in his eyes. This is what homosexuals want us to do and we cant do it.

CAN I MAKE THIS QUITE CLEAR. Homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of God and is against Christian teaching and history worldwide. Homosexuals are welcome in Church provided they stop sinning and repent. Practising homosexuals CANNOT be married in Church. I can understand if you say you are not a Christian and you dont believe in God but dont waste your time trying to persuade us Christians that we should allow homosexuals to marry in church.

For the record, Christain faith is expanding accross the globe (but not the Church of England). The Church I attend is full each Sunday.

Claudine Fourie's picture

To Malcom

Why can the British NOT stand it when the TRUTH about their abuses are told?
How many does do the british Regimes, establishments, 'churches', religeons, 'doctors', 'scientists' etc do wrong and Violate ALL of the other Biblical Laws, then you lot never criticize them and their evil doings hy, but you ALL Cowardly and bullyingly GANG up against the decent, innocent & vulnerable Gay people, just as you do to usll all in the World too??? Lokk at your yourselves, before judging and insulting and HATING others!

Also:

THIS IS FOR THESE GREAT BRITISH APARTHEIID HYPOCRITES & BIGOTTED APES & CHIMPANZEE PUGS OF THEIR HATRED OF GOOD, DECENT & INNOCENT PEOPLES, CULTURES & LAWS, WHO MUST STOP ABUSING THE GAY PEOPLE TOO & LOOK AT THEIR OWN CRIMES & VIOLATIONS OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS DAILY & NIGHTLY, SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL & THEN EXPORTED TO SOUTHERN AFRICA etc AGAINST WE MINORITY PEOPLES .

"And God spoke all these words, saying: 'I am the LORD your God…

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
[ Do NOT build statues of beings, especially the evil ones. It is also a sheer waste of money too. ]

Claudine's picture

THIS IS FOR THESE RELIGOUS GREAT BRITISH HYPOCRITES & BIGOTS OF TERRORISM, HATRED OF GOOD, DECENT & INNOCENT PEOPLES, CULTURES & LAWS, WHO MUST STOP ABUSING THE GAY PEOPLE TOO & LOOK AT THEIR OWN CRIMES & VIOLATIONS OF THE TEN COMMANDMENTS DAILY & NIGHTLY, SINCE TIME IMMEMORIAL.

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
[ re your 39 Articles & racist Church of England & Prestbytarian Churches, for example, as I have also experienced, and still see, ongoing. ]

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'
[ But, Some ‘parents’ & children, ‘doctors’, especially evil lying psychiatrists, ‘politicians’, majority of ‘lawyers’, ‘judges’, ‘psychologists’, indoctrinatory lecturers such as, at Oxford & Cambridge, are British Apartheidly vulgar, abusive and evil
and the British authorities teach children to mistreat their parents and teachers,
if they are decent ]

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbour's house; you shall not covet your neighbour's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbour's.' & Love your neighbour including Gay people, as yourself!

Malcolmpullen's picture

In addition

Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is an abomination.(Leviticus)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: (Leviticus)

Men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion (Romans)

Claudine 's picture

There is such a Minority of Gay people and I can happily live with them than with the Majority, satanic, abusive, insuting, abhorrent, racist, intollerent, Criminal, gangster hypocrites who are violating all of the other Biblical Laws for centuries and get away with it too, from the very top down to th every bottem of society.

How can the 'church ' of England call itself Christian when it hates us Proper Christians, of whom most Gay people are too, by the way, and whose services are still for Whites only, who even SELL their old rat0infestered, disused buildings to the decent Proper Ethiopian Coptic Christians for example for over £20million, while IT STOLE my and our Land, Minerals, Buildings and destroyed them too as in the Anglo-Boer Wars, etc.

These criminals who call themselves believers are in fact religous criminals - they have proven it themselves to us and we therefore do NOT need their biased, corrupt time and money-wasting 'courts' etc. to pretend to be doing so.
You will never 'sanction' it, yet you SANCTIONED YOUR GREAT BRITISH etc. SATANIC CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY & GENOCIDES & THIEVING etc AGAINST US & THE GAY PEOPLE TOO, SINCE, 1700's and in the UK since the beginning of british history!

The people are NOT as stupid and ignorant as you think they are and the TRUTH will always come out, even if it takes Centuries for it to happen - you hypocrites who LOVE WARS and CRIME.

If the Gay people are Happy ot TRY to be so, in this evil World of your's, who gives you lot the Right to deny them such, when you are violating ALL of the Other Biblical Laws?

Judge Claudine

John Das's picture

I really don't understand your feelings. Who says 'Proper Christians' are hated? Which church preaches hatred towards homosexuals or disabled or cancer sufferers or the mentally ill. The church and fellowship is for all of us, including those mentioned, whatever state they are in. But I don't intend to promote or justify anything evil or against the order of nature. A sin is a sin.
No Christian - Bishop or layman - are perfect. Everyone strives to be like Christ. It is a strife. I too do that, despite my terrible financial situation. But does that mean we have to promote certain sin - sex with another man, sex with animals, etc. People have even begun to have sex with machines. That does not mean you should demand the whole church to justify a sex relationship with a photocopy machine or a banana plant in the future.

Harold Stassen's picture

You keep dancing around Establishment as if it were a particularly irritable land mine. Why bother with this idiocy? Separate church and state-you, the Vatican, and Iran are the only countries with clergy automatically in government.

Berney's picture

Bishops sit in Parliament. There is no right for any Bishop to be part of government in Britian - nor are there any that are.

Montoya's picture

"A majority of British Christians in fact support equal rights for gay people."

What a lie! A vast majority of British Christians cannot bear a thought of this happening to their country. All practicing Christians regard homosexual lifestyle as abomination. And God does. Two homosexuals who go to church in order to "marry", go before God who absolutely despises it. As simple as that. This is the truth, despite many who hate it.

Why do you offer your wishful thinking as a fact?

jankaas's picture

"All practicing Christians regard homosexual lifestyle as abomination."

all Christians? that's clearly a lie, and there's me thinking lying was un-Christian...

"And God does."

can you prove that?

John Das's picture

Jankaas, sorry. What Montoya said above is the truth. Homosexuality is a fact and like any other faults Christ likes them better. But I don't think Christ likes this promotion and justification of 'homosexual lifestyle'. That's wrong.

Malcolmpullen's picture

Well said.

For years we have been tip-toing around the subject instead of telling it as it is.

Homosexuality is a perversion of human nature to be ranked alongside paedophilia, S&M etc. It isnt about love. It is about a man's penis going up the anal passage of another man. The "gay" lobby like to wrap it up in nice fluffy words in order to disguise that fact.

Civilisations in decline tend to adopt rampant homosexual practices. Need I say more.

McMac's picture

Ha! This is one of those posts that is so nuts you can't be sure if the poster is trolling or not. I think you should say alot more.

Malcolmpullen's picture

what do you want me to say:

PhD in physics
Christian
Socialist

An admirer of George Orwell particularly 1984 and the ability to distort language - exactly like the homosexual lobby:-

gay = homosexual (not happy any more)

homophobic = something I dont agree with you on
homosexual love = homosexual sex

equal = for the benfit of a tiny minority irrespective of whatever it does to the majority

democratic - what the metropolitan elite wants to happen

Chistianity - a set of principles you can decide for yourself

People like me would be happy to speak openly except that we would be: arrested, lose our jobs, have a brick through our windows etc just because we repeat what has been the common view of a huge majority of people all over the world for centuries. But dont worry, we wont be going away

McMac's picture

I don't doubt your belief, and you position on homosexuality and the church has some logic, but your description of homosexuals is graceless in the extreme.

I shouldn't need to explain this, let alone to a christian, but generally speaking people are the same.

They have the same motivations, the same fears and feelings.

Your dehumanisation of homosexuals and the real love that can exist between people of the same sex is a perversion of humanity and christianity.

Malcolmpullen's picture

You are the first person I feel the need to apoliogise to over my comments.

I did not wish for my views to seem the way they do seem to you. as Christians we are taught not to oppress, discrinminate against anyone (including homosexuals) and we are taught to try and love all (however hard it may be sometimes).

However, we are getting such abuse from the "gay" lobby just for holding to beliefs we have held for thousands of years. If you add together the numbers of Christians, Jews and Muslims in the world (the vasty majority of whom hold a similar view to me) then you will see that this view of homosexuality is probably a clear majority in the world. To dismiss us as wacky, evil people is insulting.

Always remember, if we ever got an eveil and totalitarian regime (like the Nazis) in this country who really attacked homosexuals, it is the Christians who would be leading the fight against this regime while many others (who are currently so outspoken) would have run to the hills.

McMac's picture

Oh cripes, you don't need to apologise, but a nice gesture. And I should apologise for taking the mickey.

I posted on another thread how I think the church has largely brought this problem on itself.

For, I don't know how long, the church has welcomed non-religious, non church goers to get married on their premises. This has secularised a church wedding to the point where, to many, it is just another consumer item. The church sold it's sacrament?

I certainly don't dismiss people's faith, and I can understand why a person of faith may be against gay church weddings, but I think that ship sailed when church going and church wedding became mutually exclusive for the majority of people.

Malcolmpullen's picture

I agree.

The only problem is that I think you use the term Church to mean the Church of England which seems to me to be a dying organisation more concerned with bishops having a seat in the House of Lords. Half the bishops probably dont even believe in God

Lots of other churches arent like this.

The sooner the CofE is dis-established the better.

jankaas's picture

you may think being gay is a perversion but to equate it to the rape of children is obnoxious.
it may also shock you to learn that a man's penis going up the anal passage of a woman is perfectly legal in the UK.
what is the real problem you have with other adult humans finding happiness in a manner that suits them?

McMac's picture

Yeah, stop stuffing it in our faces you sicko.

McMac's picture

Yeah, stop stuffing it in our faces you sicko.

Malcolmpullen's picture

I dont have any problem with it. The original law decriminalising homosexuality talked about consenting adults in private. But that wasnt enough for you - you have to stuff this peversion in all our faces

McMac's picture

...not to mention ramming it down your throat.

This is trolling isn't it?

Malcolmpullen's picture

If 61% of people who identify themselves as Chrsitains are in favour of same sex marriage then how come there arent any in my church or any church I have ever attended.

The reality is that the vast bulk of faiths (Christian, Jewish and Muslim) will NEVER sanction same sex marriage as it is completely contary to scripture.

The best thing that can happen is that we get to a situation where everyone who wishes to marry must have a civil ceremony. People of faith will treat such a ceremony as a neccessity imposed on them by a totalitarian state and have a "proper" marriae in a church, mosque or synagogue.

In this way, everyome is happy

richard_simmons02's picture

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Claudine Fourie-Grosvenor's picture

With all of Great Britain and it's racist 'Church' of England's gross hypocricies of Violating ALL of the other Biblical Laws including THE TEN COMMANDMENTS, they should be the very last to criticise anybody else, until they have proven to change and made Restitution & Reparations to us, Morally, Ethically and Legally Speaking!

They are and have done more harm to us in theis World and especially we South Africans and Australasians and Indian American peoples, than what these Minority gifted, hard-working, deent, caring, God-loving and fearing Gay/Homosexual peoples too, have done and are doing in this world.

Britain and it's British Americans are the big bullies of us all for too many centuries too long now and must REPENT, CHANGE and LISTEN to ME!

Thanks

Claudine and ALL the decent, innocent and vulnerable Victims of mosttly British Abuses and Atrocities since time-immemorial and especially of since 1700's, to-date.

MTS's picture

oh please !

McMac's picture

I think you're right.

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