Freeman

"An attempt Labour, the Lib Dems and the Nationalists voting together could prevent"

How? The NHS reforms don't apply to Scotland and Wales and the Nationalists would most likely allow themselves to be bought off. They would gain a huge amount by publicly extracting cash from Westminster. You are genuinely deluded if you think the SNP are a leftwing party.

As for the point of the Lib Dems, the point of them is to water down Labour or the Tories. And they have succeeded. The coalition's policies are a bit different from a tory only government - hence the point of the Lib Dems.

The Labour animus towards the Lib Dems stems from the mistaken belief that the Lib Dems should exist only to support Labour at which point they could merge with Labour. Not so. In any case Labour didn't have the numbers - if they want a coalition they'll need to do better at the next election. But once again they have the wrong leader and Ed Balls running the economic plan (which didn't work so well last election).

Benjamin Rae

"They could have let the Tories go at it themselves and offered support only in areas of agreement. That would have clipped the Tories wings far more effectively but would have meant no ministerial cars or cushy positions."

It wouldn't have clipped wings. It would have led to another election which only the Tories could afford to fight.

The one thing you can say about the Lib Dems is that they aren't motivated by ministerial positions and cars - if they were they would have become Tories or Labourites. Almost all of them overlap with either Tory or Labour in their beliefs. It somewhat infantile to ascribe power hunger as the Lib Dem motivation for coalition.

Love to see all the in-denial fantasists talking about what a Tory minority government wouldn't have been able to do.

In any scenario that that any sane person could visualise, there'd have been a second election by now. In which Cameron would have won a majority, campaigning with Ashcroft & mates' millions while Lab and Lib Dems were broke.

How out of touch you are. If you really asked those people, what do you think the vast majority say about the Lib Dems? You wouldn't like it, I can tell you that.

The Lib Dems have sold out and hidden behind the Tories since the Coalition was formed. This will not be forgotten by the electorate. Prepare for meltdown.

@ those supporting the Lib Dems

Do you think for a minute that people have the time to listen to these convoluted arguments? It's all 'If this had of that then this and that and you can't say it wouldn't because of something else that was almost but would have been....etc'

Yawn, again.

There is only what had happened to judge, what is happening, in the real world, not the hypothetical one. You may all have been sitting on the fence so long you don't actually know anything else.

*sigh*
@nouredine- there are plenty of Lib Dems who support these policies and want the party to go further, promoting our values. not sure how that would be served any more by seizing 'olive branch' as Coalition looks like it's here to stay

@Jay: 1) Tax cuts yes, for the lowest earners though not inheritance tax cuts for the richest and scrapping 50p rare as per Tory manifesto. remember that. 2) I agree that cutting education budget overall isn't clever but in coalitions, parties argue for what they believe in and you win some, lose some - so again would rather have pupil premium than not. 3) we're voting through ther reforms as amended, which means as improved. if it were up to me there would have been no Bill but we are where we are. not sure I agree that medical unions have had more influence than LDs, I've been close to the process & it's LDs that are making the changes 4) an achievement in the making :-) 5) wtf?! my point was that in arguing that LDs are pointless, perhaps Mehdi and others should look at how we've fought battles and sometimes lost because we were outvoted 600-to-50-odd.

@celeriac - who's talking about sterilisation?! Oh I see, humour/satire right? yes LDs need to flex muscle (read the blog!), but that's not the same as having nothing to show so far.

OK let's take your five points in turn:

1) For the million 'lifted out' of income tax, their incomes have been clobbered by inflation, the hike in VAT and rising energy bills. It is getting worse for these people, not better. And there has been no serious attempt to close tax loopholes, which would have meant that the majority of the cuts would not be necessary.

2) The pupil premium is a recently introduced measure and it will take years to know if anyone has actually benefitted from it, especially when the English education system is in such a mess.

3)Given the fact that Lansley's reforms were not even in the Coalition Agreement, the fact that they are even going through Parliament on the backs of Lib Dem votes is a huge concern and they should be scrapped immediately before England's NHS is destroyed by your Tory chums.

4) If you really belive there is actual reform going on in the banking sector, why does it have to wait until 2019? People may have forgotten by then and the banks will still be misbehaving. And as for the High Pay Commission, I doubt they have the power to enforce. Vince Cable has been disappointing and I'm sure his personal ratings are in negative numbers these days. The Tories don't want serious action to be taken against the banks because they receive at least 51% of their funding from the City. How naive you are.

5) Do not have the audacity to mention tuition fees.

I was a Lib Dem voter, but after you joined the Tories I decided you made the wrong decision and I would never vote for you again. My only option now is to vote SNP or Green. Good luck when your party disappears in 2016.

Vat increases, cutting the childcare working tax credit, freezing working tax credits, not eliminating the deficit by 2015, 2.64 million unemployed, UK Manufacturing in decline.

Reasons to love Lib Dems?

Here's the real counterfactual: a Tory minority administration. Every single piece of legislation that passes through the commons does so because the LibDems choose to support it. If they don't, the Tories can't legislate. That's the reality. Your party has shared ownership of every evil thing this Tory government does.

It is ludicrous to talk about what a "Tory-only" government would do because none was ever in prospect. They didn't win a majority, remember? That is the whole point.

Rather than trying to justify yourselves, read what every serious charity and NGO is saying about the destructive effect your cuts are having on completely innocent people up and down this country. That would make for a far better use of your energies.

I am sorry but this is a key example of utter hypocrisy and denial from the Liberal Democrats. The things you have done is to help the Tories get away with murder! How dare you! You talk about tax cuts for the poor, pupil premium, chilcare expansion, and the NHS - it's just nonsense and Liberal Democrat jibberish. There is no point of the Lib Dems. You have increase VAT to 20%, the IFS has shown that the poorest will be hit hardest, you have created free-market schools, cut education spending so fast, women hit 3 times as hard as men, allowed Cameron to throw his toys out of the pram in Europe, TREBLED TUITION FEES, the deepest cuts in living memory - anti-Keynesianism, you have made the NHS a free-market health shop, cut benefits for the poorest in societym, refused to back trafficking laws, scrapped the Equality Bill etc. I mean all this Tory bashing is getting you nowhere, you are all Tories now. Labour tried to give you and an open embrace in order to work together as progressive several times, even whilst you were feeding power to the Tories and you rejected it - even Tim Farron. I mean the Liberal Democrats have on point and that is to prop up the Tories. No wonder SO many progressive Lib Dems are defecting to Labour, if you had any sense you will dump the Thatcherite government and join Labour too!

'Yes of course we want to see Liberal Democrats deliver more of our values and policies in government and to stop more Tory madness'

Ummm here's an idea of how to stop the Tory madness - go into a coalition with Labour.

Oh no sorry, too late. You threw in your lot with the Tories like a bunch of cheap hookers. You manage to stuff the odd tenner down your bra and call it a victory over your pimp.

Utter nonsense. Lifting 1 million people out of income tax? Unemployment soaring especially among you. Squeeze on tax credits, child benefit along with some despicable policies re the sick and disabled.
The pupil premium is another tockenistic gesture when you consider how child poverty is rising fast thanks to the coalition.
The NHS reforms are a ticking timebomb. The majority of professionals involved in the service have told you often enough.
The bank reform has been pathetic and anybody with half a brain knows this. Lord Oakshoftt said as much.
This government is the most regressive post war. This is beyond question.
There is different ways to deal with a deficit. The Lib dems represented themselves as progressives and have enabled a seriously right wing Tory party.
They will pay the price for their staggering dishonesty and the leadership have it coming

Yes, had Clegg not reached agreement with Cameron and a minority Tory government resulted, the cuts would've been prevented.

So the tory response would be to call another election last autumn.

With the various crises, the spirit of protest and riots, the potential for this spilling over in a heightened state of political tension and causing real havoc as heavyhanded responses from weak tories wanting to show their strength, what chance a European Spring?

With Brown still at the helm, or even with Miliband, the country's polarising drift under these circumstances allied to a lack of funding for the left in an election would tip the balance strongly.

Even if the LibDems aren't exerting any influence over the coalition it is undeniable the party has moderated the wider situation.

Can you see the trees for the wood?

Above should read "coalition agreement"

A Tory minority government is not the counterfactual. The Tories would have called a snap election and got themselves a majority. All their pre-election campaigning against a hung parliament would have been proved right, and they would have been able to scare the country into giving them a majority. The Lib Dems would have been presented the pathetic cop outs who rejected their once in a generation chance at being part of government, and put their selfish interests ahead of the need for a stable government at a time of economic turmoil.

A Labour Coalition would have been an undemocratic "government of the losers". Clegg would be ridiculed propping up the most unpopular prime minister since WW2. The need for support from the nationalists would have made it deeply unstable and would lead to another election in short time. And a Lib/Lab coalition would be making deep spending cuts too.

In summary, every option available to the Lib Dems after the general election was the wrong one.

What a lot of bile. Considering how long Labour were in power for its surprising that they didn't do much to address things like the decline of the Manufacturing base, Regulation of the City, the Housing Shortage. We would have been even more up the spout if Darling hadn't managed to hang on to the chancellorship and had instead allowed Balls to get into #11. Meanwhile some of the worst new Labour excesses , ID cards etc have been swept away. I think Clegg has plenty of shortcomings as a leader but at least there is a fair chance he'll still be in place in the Spring, unlike Ed Miliband, the most limited Labour leader in living memory.

Didn't have to go into coalition with Labour. They could have let the Tories go at it themselves and offered support only in areas of agreement. That would have clipped the Tories wings far more effectively but would have meant no ministerial cars or cushy positions.
Say what you want but this government is the most right wing post war and is extremely regressive. The Liberals didn't have to agree to it but they did.

If the LibDems vote against the NHS reforms there is a chance that people will see some point in voting for them. But as it stands the Bill is only marginally different from the first version and makes no sense. It was not in the manifesto of any Party, it was not in the coalition agreement and does nothing to tackle the country's economic problems. So if the LibDems vote for the NHS reforms then there is no point in voting LibDem: a voter might as well vote Tory knowing full well that a poorly-planned, ideologically-driven legislation that was not in the manifesto will be pulled out of the hat.

Lib Dems as wild beast tamers. Same old, same old.

And the whole "argument" overlooks the fact that without these useful idiots to prop them up, the Tories would be a minority government, utterly unable to get their reactionary agenda through Parliament.

'Consider the counterfactual too - a Tory-only government turning the NHS into nothing but an unaccountable purchaser in a for-profit market.'

An attempt Labour, the Lib Dems and the Nationalists voting together could prevent. Instead, we have the Lib Dems voting with the Tories FOR it. Do you think we are stupid?