Paul Flynn must explain his comments about Jewish loyalty
His ill-chosen words have nothing to do with the just cause of Palestinian liberation.
By Owen Jones Published 01 December 2011 18:47
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90 comments
Am not sure if this has been posted or not. If it has, sorry for the repeat.
a) Sincere apologies for getting your name wrong Jehudah.
b) Indeed, the state of Israel approved of the private status of JNF in 1953 hence indirectly approving its charter which contains a prohibition on the sale of any portion of its land to non-Jews. Furthermore there is nothing to stop the state from transferring land owned by the ILA for precisely that purpose. The state, therefore, agreed that a private entity operating within its border may openly break the Declaration of Independence which specifies that: “The state of Israel … will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants, irrespective of religion race or sex”. Either I misunderstand what the rule of law means or the state of Israel has used legal wizardry to circumvent policies that are discriminatory at best and racist at worst.
c) Does this make me anti-semitic? I don’t think so!!!
Owen Jones's article shows the utmost sloppiness and laziness on his part. If you are going to claim that you have read an article, at least ensure that the quotes you use are factually correct. Clearly there is a conflict of interest if a Jewish person with avowed Zionist sympathies is appointed to respresent the UK in Israel. We already have an example of how the stalled Middle East process actually went into decline under Labour.We had in Lord Levy a powerful advocate for Israel who claimed to be neutral in the Palestine/Israel conflict. I for one am sick and tired of how we all have to tip toe around Israel for fear of anti Semitism. If the reports are true about the Labour leadership criticing Paul Flynn it just goes to show that Labour just like the Tories cannot be trusted to do the honourable thing on the conflict. What EM should be doing is supporting openly and proudly the Palestine bid for statehood at the UN
Is it any wonder that people feel disengaged from the political process. The process of disengagement extends across all classes in society. Time and time again when it comes to the LP doing the right thing by the Palestinians, the ZIonist Jewish lobby gets in the way and thwarts any effort to offer real support to the Palestinians. EM said at the recent LP conference that the Israel/Palestine conflict was unsustainable. Well what is he going to do or say which marks him out as a true leader!!!!!!!!! Or is it the case the EM will be weighed down by his own Jewish heritage. I do hope I am wrong. as his mother is a remarkable anti Zionist campaigner!!!
One has only to look at some of the comments below the line here to realise why antisemitic discourse is embedded so firmly in the UK.
Herring, I agree with you. If heaven forfend anyone should act upon this hater's words, then I hope that there would be no Muslim ambassadors to Muslim countries either, but hell would freeze over first, so terrified are the allegedly great and good of the backlash which would be sure to ensue.
When even "intelligent" people don't realise when they are being antisemitic and those of us who know about such things can make out so-called antiZionism which masks antisemtism by its rank smell, things are very bad indeed.
Denis MacShane has called in Parliament for a debate on antisemitism in public discourse and has been seconded by the Speaker.
This sort of discourse is a corrosive ulcer on the body of so-called democracy
"liberation" of Palestine is also controversial, Lee, but is acceptable however it's pursued even when it involves messing with the heads of impoverished young Muslims by people who deliberately encourage them to want to die and yet would never lead by example.
Zionism expresses the right for self-determination of the Jewish people. It's only controversial if you don't agree that the Jews of all peoples have such a right, which makes you, what?
Qeren Qajemet L'Israel, it being a private entity, is entitled to use its assets for whatever needs it sees fit.
Indeed, any gated community in the UK, Canada or the US is in exactly the same position; determining whether people who are of certain age may or may not reside in the community, or people with children may or may not move in to reside on the property.
Israel, being a western oriented country, is not any different than the most liberal democratic countries. Attempting to single out the nation-state of the Jewish people, therefore, doesn't bode well for the motives of the people who do so...
P.S. And, while the discussion has turned to dealing with real estate, why not question whether the poster is as obsessive about the real estate laws at the Palestinian Authority (PA)? The PA prohibits, by law, the selling of any real estate to Jews, be it state-owned or privately-owned. And, the punishment for selling real estate to Jews is..., yes, death!! A number of Arabs have lost their lives for the "crime" of selling their privately owned land to Jews, but we don't hear an condemnation about this racist law, do we...??!!
FOr the record Owen most Jewish people do support the state of Israel no matter what it does. The people you cite are in a minority. Is there not also something distinctly anti semitic about the Jewish state of Israel which posits that the only place Jews can feel safe is in the state of Israel.
Antisemites don't like being called for what they are, do they? What are we to make of this (from one 'Redscribe'):
"...just as Tam Dalyell was smeared for exposing the machinations of Zionists in promoting war against Iraq, so Flynn is being hounded for exposing plans for war against Iran. Just as attempts were also made (unsuccessfully) to smear George Galloway as an anti-semite, over and over again." ?
The expression "condemned out of his own mouth" springs to mind.
Surely Denis Macshane would be better served if he called a debate on how the UK has used and abused the Palestinians. Serving the Zionist minority in his constituency is not necessarly the same thing as serving UK interests!!!
I agree with LEE why should we not question the newly appointed Uk ambassador to Israel. We need to know whether he places UK political interests above Israeli interests. He needs to chose!!!!
Sadly, the words chosen by Mr. Flynn was a perfect example of the outcome of the phenomenon that has evolved in the UK during the past few decades and which has turned Great Britain into the hub of the UNHOLY TRINITY.
The UNHOLY TRINITY, of course, is made of three elements: Classic anti-Semites; Present day "progressive" anti-Jewish racists; and, 7th century based Islamists.
The three elements have little in common but the deeply rooted hostility towards the nation-state of the Jewish people, and by extension towards the people whose nation-state Israel is, that is the Jewish people.
What annoys the Zionist diehards the most is the fact anti Zionists dare to express and anti Israeli opinion. Surely believing the state of Israel to be above criticism is deeply racist!!!!
Keep Digging Mr. Flynn....It's high time we knew about the grip Zionism has on the UK Foreign policy!
Not Racism Just Truth!
The Zionist don't like it upem!
Can somebody from the pro Zionist lobby explain to me why a Jew is safer in Israel???? I seem to remember too that the early Zionists were looking at a possible state in Uganda!!!
Good heavens, what a wreck 'maxinemf' is.
The phrase "Zionism" and "Zionists" come up often here. Clearly, to us, Jews, the obsessive dealing with "Zionism" by non-Jews is indicative, for the most part, in simply substituting the term Jew or Jews with Zionist or Zionists...
And, since the term has come up, again, let me state: Zion is another name for Jerusalem, the city that was set up by our king, King David, more than 3,000 years ago, as our spiritual and administrative center. And Jews, ever since, have maintained their strong affinity to Zion and the country at the center of which it is located, it being the cradle of Jewish civilization, Judaism, and the national home of the Jewish people in which it has maintained continuous presence for nearly 4,000 years.
Those wishing us, Jews, to disappear and shell off our deeply rooted ancient civilization, including divorcing ourselves from Zion should think twice: Once, is it ethical to expect a people to die off, and the second time, is it possible to uproot Jews, after all that they have experienced in history, from that which is part of their being...??
The point, which this article entirely omits, is that Matthew Gould has been accused of plotting with US neocons, Adam Werritty and Mossad of plotting a British/Israeli attack on Iran:
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/liam-fox-adam-werritty-and...
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/11/matthew-gould-and-the-plo...
The accusations of anti-semitism against Paul Flynn are, I fear, simply an attempt to deflect attention from this.
Zionism is a controversial political view, and it is clearly inappropriate for the ambassador to Israel to describe himself as a "Zionist", like you said. That's the main point, isn't it?
Where are the actual quotes from Flynn saying more than that originally from? I'm sceptical of anything selectively quoted in a dodgy publication like that. It's the kind of thing the tabloids do all the time - throwing quotes into a different context.
I don't quite follow this argument.
You seem to be saying that Paul Flynn shouldn't say anti-semitic things, because "ultra-Zionists" will then argue that hatred of Israel is motivated by anti-semitism.
But if somebody says anti-semitic things and expresses hatred of Israel, doesn't that indicate that there's some truth in this concern?
A few other points.
The constituent who Paul Flynn MP made his remarks in support of is Pippa Bartolotti, who has been photographed with the flag of the Syrian Social Nationalist Party, which is a Nazi party. She also met Hamas founder, Mahmoud Al Zahar, who has threatened to kill Jewish children all over the world.
The article which Paul Flynn cites in support of his theory was written by Jonathan Cook. Jonathan Cook has written articles supporting Gilad Atzmon and attacking the Guardian and Andy Newman of Socialist Unity for criticising Atzmon's pro-Holocaust Denial and racist statements.
Remember Atzmon has been opposed by the Palestine Solidarity Campaign and Hope Not Hate, who believe he is an anti-semite.
The article that Paul Flynn recommends comes from Counterpunch, which itself publishes everything that Gilad Atzmon writes.
Paul Flynn also recommends other articles on a Canadian website called Global Research. The contents of that website is pure fringe conspiracy theory. It is run by a guy who believes that there's no proof that Bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11.
Paul Flynn really doesn't believe that he is a racist and doesn't believe that he is peddling a conspiracy theory. But he might not be the best person to judge.
Flynn was absolutely wrong in alledgedly saying that Jews 'have no place in Britain'. Its as bad as saying Irish Catholics have no place in britain. That is racist.
But he may have a valid point in objecting to a professed zionist as Ambassador to Israel. Its not a very diplomatic appointment and partizan.
The ex presidents were not zionists; thet were just anti Arab and pro-Israeli.
And should we expect our Ambassador to the Vatican to be automatically a RC. No. Or our Ambassador to Pakistan to be a Muslim. No.
To be denounced by supporters of ethnic cleansing is an honour.
Zionism just means supporting the right of Jews to self-determine in Israel. All British Governments have been "Zionist".
We've had a Bangladeshi as High Commissioner to Bangladesh. He was, of course, a supporter of Bangadeshi independence. Bangladesh has only been independent since the 1970s and it took a civil war in which a million died to establish it.
What's the difference between a person of Bangladeshi extraction supporting Bangladesh as an independent state, and a Jew supporting Israel as an independent state?
It doesn't mean that Bangladeshis in Britain are somehow disloyal to our country.
Our ambassadors can only have one loyalty, Britain and her interests, I find nothing wrong with a Zionist's loyalties being at least questioned. A Zionist ambassador to Israel, should certainly be questioned...as to their loyalties, and actually not sent. Zion is, after all, in what ever form it takes located in Israel is it not.
99% loyalty is not acceptable in this position. Equally I'd expect the Israeli ambassador to the UK to be some form of Zionist
The native Palestinians have been in the area which has become known as Israel for more than five thousnad years. Palestinians were there well before the Jews!!!
On the issue of proclaiming oneself to be a Zionist, it really comes down to what one means by zionism. I suspect Gould was using it in the sense of supporting Israel's right to exist, as most British Jews use the term. Any further extrapolation to what Owen Jones calls 'ultra Zionism' is most certainly unwarranted (yes, I do realise others were making the extrapolation, not the author.
On another point, I'm fascinated by this ubiquitous claim that the Israel-sympathetic shout 'anti-semitism' so quickly and easily.
An example of somebody serious describing genuine criticism of Israel as 'anti-semitic' would be most welcome.
In response to Qaz. I am not a wreck, just telling the truth. The amoount of bare faced lied told by the Zionist lobby brigade in this comments section is entirely predictable. Viva Palestina!!
"An example of somebody serious describing genuine criticism of Israel as 'anti-semitic' would be most welcome."
An example from somebody who is not themselves an obvious loony, in particular!
Owen: I do find it very worrying that your biggest concern is that statements like Paul Flynn's might justify the argument that at least some hostility to, and preoccupation with, Israel coincides with racism against Jews. Shouldn't you be a bit more concerned with, you know, racism itself?
Also, haven't you noticed that racists and Jew haters have been laying into the Palestine Solidarity Campaign for distancing itself from Gilad Atzmon this week? Doesn't that indicate to you that there really is a problem?
By insinuating that Jews have no roots in the UK, Flynn inadvertently justifies Zionism - i.e. the Jewish right to self-determination - since only in a Jewish state would they be treated as "natives". The irony, of course, is lost on him and others here.
Jim Murphy MP, member of Labour Friends of Israel would do well to look after UK interests rather than pontificating and supporting the minority Jewish population in his constituency!!!!!!
I think Mr so-called "Redscribe" (at least I don't hide behind a pseudonym)has pretty effectively exposed what he is, though not who he is. End of.
I think Prof Higgins summed it up admirably: I treat a Duchess as though she were a Flower Girl and Flower Girl as though she were a Duchess.
Its about time we had a revival of GBS.
Yes, I've exposed myself as someone else this person can hate. Its an honour to be hated by such a person.
@ Owen Jones
And I wonder where he learnt his quaint Jew-baiting. From 'Jewish Conspiracy'-mongers perhaps? Neo Nazis? Or maybe closer to home, Owen?
Maybe Paul Flynn read the 'Kosher Conspiracy' edition of the New Statesman with its charming 'gold Star of David impaling a Union Jack' front cover. I would have thought you'd be proud of him. He's a pea from the same pod.
@ acommentator
"Zionism is a controversial political view,"
If, on the other hand, you use the definition as understood - and approved of - by most people, namely as "the right to exist of a Jewish state in Israel", it becomes somewhat less controversial. That is in essence what zionism is.
And by that definition any political view that has opponents could be called 'controversial', including all support for national self-determination anywhere.
OK, Patrick Levi-explain why Israel is a vile state, and Syria, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, China, Congo, Zimbabwe-for a few examples aren't. Is it because hate of those states isn't an article of faith for identikit wannabe radicals like you and redscribe?
Incidentally, redscribe, ending a post with the words "end of" make you look moronic rather than emphatic.
Neither of you has a thing to say about the contrast between sexuality, gender, and religious equality in Israel and most of the ME. Tell me, what do you think of the gay Palestinian men who leave their homes for Tel Aviv? Are they traitors, or just people seeking a tolerance they won't find in their own society?
Why don't you put the same energy into denouncing sexism and homophobia in Islamic and African societies as you do into denouncing Israel? I'm truly curious about that.
Sorry acommenter,
that was meant to be addressed to Lee, not you.