Radical Islamism goes deeper than we think, says Tony Blair
In a forensic and measured interview by the BBC's John Humphrys, the former Prime Minister defends his actions after 9/11.
By Helen Lewis Published 10 September 2011 12:09
Tony Blair has sparred with John Humphrys over his prime ministerial record.
The BBC Today interviewer asked Blair whether he believed the "war on terror" had been won. "We've achieved significant results . . . but I don't think this is over," he replied. I think the radical Islamism which gave rise to this terrorist group is still with us, still powerful."
In a wide-ranging 28-minute interview, taking in Iran, extraordinary rendition and the death toll in Iraq, Blair repeated several times his belief that al-Qaeda was part of a "bigger, broader picture". He also said he had no knowledge of British collusion in the torture of detainees who had been subject to extraordinary rendition: "You can't know everything the security services are doing."
Here are some of the key exchanges.
On the "war on terror":
Tony Blair: The real question is not whether you call it the war on terror or you don't, it is: what is the nature of the threat? I think the most interesting and difficult question for me ten years on is: was this a group of isolated people, terrorists, with an ideology, who committed a terrible atrocity or was this group at the furthest end of a spectrum of what I would call radical Islamism, and therefore this is something far bigger, far greater than even we assessed after September 11 . . .
I don't think you can treat these people as just a weird and warped group with no connection to the wider world.
On the threat of Islamism:
TB: When I'm in the Middle East, and you see the activities of the Muslim Brotherhood, or Hamas, you look at the role that Iran is playing in the region, I think it's a big mistake to say this was just about Bin Laden and a group of terrorists. That's my view.
John Humphrys: The fact you pitched the "war on terror" at every stage against the worst that we could imagine led to appalling consequences.
Tony Blair: I wouldn't agree with that. I think the difficulties we had in Afghanistan or Iraq - we removed the regimes actually quite easily, the Taliban in a couple of months and Saddam in two months - what then happened is the very forces I'm talking about combined together, Iran from the outside, al-Qaeda from the outside, insurgents from inside, in order to try to destabilise those countries.
On the death toll in Iraq:
JH: That's rather the dismissing the consequences of what you did . . . Look at Iraq. The deaths of tens - most people believe hundreds - of thousands of entirely innocent people. . . Many more than had been killed in any acts of terrorism.
TB: The figure that the Iraq Body Count gives is over 100,000.
JH: Johns Hopkins [university]... 650,000.
TB: Those figures were hugely discredited.
On WMD:
TB: Let's look at what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq. What we did was remove a brutal and repressive dictatorship.
JH: ... that wasn't threatening us. Or the Western world.
TB: I disagree. I think the Taliban harbouring al-Qaeda was threatening us. I think Saddam was undoubtedly a threat.
JH: How? He didn't have weapons of mass destruction, as we now know.
TB: He was in breach of United Nations resolutions going back many years, and had used chemical weapons against his own people. And by the way, started two wars in the region.
On how Blair dealt with Bin Laden:
JH: You went off on the wrong foot and created massive problems.
TB: That is to assume that the problem was Bin Laden and a group of terrorists. That comes back to the difference in analysis between us - if you were right, then now that Bin Laden is dead, you would expect to find this radical Islamism dying with him. But it's not. Look at Nigeria, Somalia, look at what's happened in the Middle East, in Lebanon, look what's happening in Yemen today. Look at what's happening in all of these countries where radical Islamism is developing. It's not about one man.
JH: And we're not dealing with all of those by invading those particular countries.
On Iran:
TB: Iran was a threat before Saddam.
JH: But it's a greater threat now.
TB: It's a threat that has been growing for a period of time. The reason it's a bigger threat now is not because Saddam has gone in Iraq.
JH: Oh, it is. [Ahmedinajad] has influence in Iraq that he didn't have before.
TB: That is correct that Iran is trying to influence Iraq in a way that is deeply unhelpful. My answer to that is you deal with Iran.
JH: What do you do to Iran?
TB: If necessary, you've got to be prepared to use force to stop their military nuclear programme.
JH: What kind of force . . . could it include invasion?
TB: No, I don't think it would include invasion, but I think you cannot rule out using military force against Iran if they continue to develop nuclear weapons.
You can listen to the full interview here. It begins around the 1.32 mark.
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35 comments
Do the anti-Blair bigots also think that Churchill was an aggressive, lying war-monger? I really wonder which world these islamists and their foul supporters inhabit
Islam is not a cancer.
Blair ate Humphries alive??? I must have been listening to a different interview because i thought just the opposite. John gave him enough rope to hang himself, drew his attention to inconsistencies and his dismissal of anything factual that got in the way of his current efforts to justify his radical views.
Juney, you heard what you wanted to hear. Or perhaps Humphrys' pompous, long-winded rhetoric was in line with the way you think. I shouldn't be surprised. I disagree with Blair, but he did well.
@ Herbert
"Do the anti-Blair bigots also think that Churchill was an aggressive, lying war-monger?"
No, because he didn't start the war.
Oh for Gods sake tony, go away and shut up, don't apply retroactive justification for your evil and murderous actions. As if 100,000 dead iraqis don't count for anything with their muslim brothers and sisters. Radicalised? That's what they wanted - to create an enemy so the totalitarianism policies they love could be pushed upon us.
A deficient knowledge of history Zeros. It was Britain that declared war on Germany following Poland. No doubt the Stop the war' rabble would've declared this an act of warp feeing aggression just like Afghanistan and Iraq.
But it's the way he makes a living, he comes on TV gives the yanks what they want to hear, then Blair gets a flight back to America goes off telling the American see I backed you, the UK backed you, Look I have medal of honor here. another $250,000 in his bank account
Smarmy little git.
But it was quite different to regime change. The Germans were a direct threat. Rogue dictators don't have to be our problem. We can't afford to take them all on anyway.
Ive just spotted all the arguing on Mehdi Hasan's blog though. I'm not getting into that, and I am not an Islamist or one of their 'foul supporters' btw.
Blair has lost all credibility with the public, but doesn't seem to realise it. The feeble platitudes keep arriving. He has no credence and should disappear with as much grace as he can muster. Most would like to see him tried for war crimes, and I would support that stance.
T Bliar is supposed to be the peace envoy in the middle east. Looking at the state of things he's achieved nothing. Yet he gets paid his astronomical salary for it. He should either do his job - or if he can't, resign and stop talking these sums of money that could keep most of us comfortable for several years per one of his paydays.
TB effectively demonstrates that the world is divided between liberal democracies such as the USA, Israel etc. and primitive savage death cult theocracies that believe in stoning women to death, hanging teenage boys from cranes because they are Gay, ethnically cleansing and murdering Christians because that's what is commanded in the most racist genocidal book in history - the racist Koran.
The so pious Toni Blair the Catholic (“sanctity of life,” of course) intuits that he will never be remembered as an honorable man but as a war profiteer.
As for the causes of 9/11, Chris Hedges summarized them the best :
“…the attacks were rooted in the long night of humiliation and suffering inflicted by Israel on the Palestinians, the imposition of our military bases in the Middle East and in the brutal Arab dictatorships that we funded and supported…”
http://www.truthdig.com/report/page2/nationalism_in_the_aftermath_of_9_1...
How dispirting that Tony Blair wishes to engage in a debate over how many people were killed in the Iraq conflict as if academic arguments about death toll are the only matter of consequence rather than the orgigins of the invasion and what transpired.
Appointing TB as middle east peace envoy was like appointing Nero as chief far fighter in Rome. Tony is there to maintain Pax Americana dominance of the region. Iran and now perhaps Turkey threaten that.
Herbert @12.54 Israel liberal democracy? Perhaps if your a jew but certainly no in the occupied territories.
Unfortunately, we forget that most of the dictators in the middle east where put on their thrones by western countries exploiting natural resources of those countries and maintainly in their view an strategic middle east vision. They did not care about the treatment of the people of that nation, more about the money they would receive and maintaning the "divide and conquer" strategy.
Iraq lead by a brutal dictator put in place by the west (financed and backed up) started not to listen to the terms of employment, meant that a new middle east strategy was required whilst the USA's military budget which was being questioned also needed to be justified. To this end and to secure the future revenue's from the oil, a regime change was put into action. This had nothing to do with saving the lives of innocent iraqi's (bearing in mind Saddam was put in place by the same people) but to secure the oil and secure paperwork showing the UK/US sales of arms to a dictatorship.
Unfortunately, Tony has his own agenda and has no interest in resolving the main issues in the middleast. There is no ideology in the middleast, it is merely as Maslow put's it in his Hierarchy of Needs theory, the first line of meeting basic needs. They are not looking at world regime change, they want to have basic food, water and shelter for themselves and their families which is not provided by the Western backed dictorships. They can see the West's foreign policy ideology. They maybe poor but even a poor person can have good education. When two generations of people are oppressed by a state such as Israel backed by US with veto rights in the so called democratic UN (contradiction in terms) then it does not take much intelligence for people to understand what is going on. Even though muslims come from different countries, this ummah sense - the sense of being fair and just to all people of the world (a basic human feeling) comes to the fore and liberal muslims all over the world feel this injustice and our hearts go out to the unfair repression of a people in Palestian - it equates to genocide as Israel deliberately countrols food and water and education. They pay dictators within Palestine (maintaining the rule via divide and conquer). People of 50-60 years of age have not seen "normal" life but oppression. They too want a better life and can see no support from the UN or the west. Unfortuntately they can only do what they can and the radical / dictators (the minority) usually with their own agenda's are leading an innocent people. We should not judge a nation by the dictators. The innocent people of any nation want peace and stability. Tony, unfortunately lumps all those people together when he talks about the ideology. He is paid well and wants to remain in his position. He has no desire to resolve the conflict otherwise his job will come to an end. How can a person who ordered the illegal invasion of Iraq with the wrong reasons such as WMD be a credible figure to help resolve the probelms in the middleast. A loss of life (even one life) is so precious to the family who has lost the dear one but to coin it as "collateral damage" and for the greater good just shows that Tony does not value life. He is debating the number of dead but surely the loss of one life for the wrong reason is enough to question our methodology / way of doing things. We send out our brave men and women into war for the wrong reasons - It is not thier fault but the government of the day. Tony should be tried for war crimes yet we he is free to continue his meddling. Dictators in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan, etc should also be tried for war crimes. We as a people should be fair and state when some-one is doing wrong. We should not continue to back these government with military aid, special gifts and lavish livestyles for the dictators - We should help the people of these nations, who are innocent and are brutally treated by the regimes, get them to air their voices, help them to fight by political means. Unfortunately Western governments ideology is one of maintaining the status quo and having control over resources and making profit. If we are to make the world a better place we have to question ourselves as well as the cronies in charge.
When the western gangsters rampage all over the Islamic world setting up puppet thugs to help steal the wealth of their country these so called terrorists are freedom fighters
and the like of Blair and BUSH to name but 2.greedy slimy so called Christians are the scum that is poisoning the world
He just doesn't get it, although that is hardly a surprise. I'm glad I never trusted him (and I told a Labour canvasser such) back in 1997. The man is a maniac, and he is a good example of why I think that those who want to have power should never be allowed to have it.
@Herbert: calling the US and Israel 'liberal democracies' is stretching it just a wee bit, don't you think?
@Flashbuck: Since the Iraq war Coalition failed to count the number of civillians killed in the war and the invasion, how do you actually know how many of them died at the hands of "other moslems" (sic)? I take it you've been doing your own counting?
How can anyone believe a word that TB has to say? His non verbals clearly show that he continually lies when asked any probing questions about Iraq. I wonder how he would feel if one of his children was shot and the perpetrator had the British government behind them!!!!!
He or she who thinks Blair speaks truth is a fool. The man is so dishonest. Is he any different than Bin Laden. Both wanted war and both told lies. Only difference is Blair was on the winning side!!!
People, don't pay too much attention to what that deranged psychopath retard Flashbuck has to say. Everyone dies and so will he/she/it, except in his/her/it's case, it will be too late to repent or make amends.
'Forensic'? 'Measured"? The word you failed to find is self serving.
The sooner you stop writing about him, the sooner we stop listening to him, the sooner he fades away like the worm fart that he spouts.
Is Blair any different from Bin laden? Yes dear he is. Blair does not spread terrorism. And don't give me that crap about the invasion being terrorism. It wasn't and it isn't and youre a fool to say so. I don't like Blair but saying he is a terrorist is just silly.
Humphrys is far too old for the job. He's become all pompous and holier-than-thou. Blair saw him off with ease. Get rid of him. And get rid of the Scotch twat while yo're about it.
Either Blair really doesn't understand middle east politics or he is hoping everyone else doesn't. Not only have attacks on Iraq/afghanistan radicalized Many more otherwise moderate Muslims but they have also drawn in the more professional category rather than the redneck equivilants that existed before the attacks.
And what exactly was the Justification for attacking Iraq again ? Absolutely nothing and they all knew it but it really turned the table on the USA/Nato and showed them to be a very weak military power.
In case Blair hasn't noticed, the USA is not really a superpower anymore as a result of its military Adventures.
There is an interesting article here about testosterone and its effect on male bankers and how it distorted their judgment.
http://voxeu.org /index.php?q=node/3572
Why did the bankers behave so badly?
Anne Sibert
18 May 2009
Do we need more women diplomats?
The Roman civilisation fell because it bankrupted itself having wars over resources. Let's not follow the same path.
the link is:
http://voxeu.org/index.php?q=node/3572
If any of the deranged anti-TB comments above are not written by Islamist psychopaths could they let me know what exactly their fascination with the Islamist death cult is actually based upon? Love of humanity, pluralism,respect for human rights? Is there actually an Arab/Moslem state anywhere that has the slightest respect for non-Moslems?
So he has no knowledge of rendition, which there seems to have been, but he had intelligence (a word I now use with some circumspection) about WMD.
Has he got a book launch due or something? seems to be back in the media a lot.
This man's arrogance is really something else. To take just one example (and it is hard to know ahere to start), he attempts to justify the invasion of Iraq by saying that Saddam was responsible for starting two wars in the region. Yes, and which was the major war of these two? The Iran-Iraq war, with its huge loss of life, in which Saddam was supported and armed by the West. Not to mention Saddam's use of chemical weapons, which no-one seemed to care about very deeply at the time - the Kurds only became useful much later. Pure cynicism.
As if Blair hasn't himself got enough blood on his hands already, he appears to think that taking up the mantle of "peace envoy" gives him carte blanche to advocate taking out the countries of the region one by one. If he doesn't have the good grace to apologise for the results of his actions and all their repercussions, he should at least have the sense to remain silent. I can't believe how elated I was when he was first elected.
Ok, rant over. I think.
It is very sad that Tony Blair is so wrapped up in his own legacy that he is blinded to the facts. He is simply in denial and it beggars belief that he is now the middle east peace envoy http://bit.ly/nYHIxo
Poor John Humphries - Blair ate him alive!
And Blair is 100% on the money about Islam's many many extremists, and that wider group - take a bow Olijaan!- who are in total denial about how extreme, hate filled,anti-democratic, illiberal, homophobic and misogynist so many of this "faith's" believers are...
And yes, if you look all over the world, the primary victims of Islamic terror and extremism ..are other Muslims. This is a war within Islam, and it is not clear which group is winning it!
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