“The Invisible Big Kahuna”
Andrew Zak Williams discusses this week’s New Statesman article in which prominent atheists told him
By Andrew Zak Williams Published 23 July 2011 11:51
Richard Dawkins, Steven Weinberg, Sam Harris, AC Grayling, Polly Toynbee ... I expect that most writers who have tried to interview an equivalent stellar cast have found that their phone calls went unanswered and their emails were assigned to the Trash Box. But there's something about the perceived irrationality of belief in God which brings many atheists out fighting.
The religious sometimes wonder why anyone would choose not to believe in God. But, as Sam Harris told me, it is they who must shoulder the burden of proving their case. After all, "every Christian can confidently judge the God of Zoroaster to be a creature of fiction, without first scouring the universe for evidence of his absence."
For Harris all that one needs to banish false knowledge is to recognise an absence of evidence. And there is one hymn sheet from which even atheists are willing to sing: that headed "Lack of Evidence". For instance Richard Dawkins told me that he doesn't believe in leprechauns, pixies, werewolves or a whole range of gods, and for the same reason in every case: "there is not the tiniest shred of evidence for any of them, and the burden of proof rests with those who wish to believe."
Particle physicist Victor Stenger added that the God of Jews, Christians and Muslims supposedly plays such an important role in the universe that there should be evidence that he exists. But instead, "there is nothing in the realm of human knowledge that requires anything supernatural, anything beyond matter, to describe our observations."
But it's not just an absence of evidence upon which several atheists relied. Rather, there was perceived to be clear evidence which suggests that God is no more real than an imaginary friend. The clearest pointer seems to have been suffering. No wonder that Polly Toynbee told me that the only time that she is ever tempted, momentarily, to believe in God "is when I shake an angry fist at him for some monstrous suffering inflicted on the world for no reason whatsoever."
Some believers - and Christian philosophers - respond that suffering on earth actually enriches our lives. But as psychologist Richard Wiseman told me, if that were so, it would paint a picture of heaven being a rather miserable place. For other believers, it may be that God has a very good reason for allowing suffering but we can't understand what it is because we lack his divine knowledge. Biologist Jerry Coyne gives this argument short shrift: "If there is a god, the evidence points to one who is apathetic - or even a bit malicious."
Publisher and author Michael Shermer gave me an intriguing overview to the question of God's existence:
"In the last 10,000 years there have been roughly 10,000 religions and 1,000 different gods; what are the chances that one group of people discovered the One True God while everyone else believed in 9,999 false gods?"
When it comes to the God Debate, one can't ignore the commodity to which the religious cling to sustain their beliefs: faith. Several months ago, I carried out an equivalent investigation when I asked many prominent Christians to give me their reasons for belief. Several of them admitted that it must ultimately come down to whether you take it on faith; once you do, you'll experience God's love and you won't worry about having the answer to every intellectual argument.
For many believers, faith is all that matters, shielding them from arguments and evidence which they would rather not have to consider. These are the ones who oppose the Critical Thinking of science and prefer the Critical of Thinking inherent in their faith.
But if you rely on blind faith, what are the chances that you're going to see the light?
For others, their religion satisfies them intellectually. Yet when they can't reason their way past specific problems (say, suffering or biblical inconsistencies), their faith comes riding to the rescue. But faith is hardly a white horse: more like a white elephant, trumpeting a refusal to engage in debate as though it were something about which to be proud.
The atheists that I spoke to are the products of what happens to many intelligent people who aren't prepared to take important decisions purely on faith, and who won't try to believe simply to avoid familial or societal pressures. And as philosopher Daniel C. Dennett put it: "Why try anyway? There is no obligation to try to believe in God."
I could hardly end this piece without mentioning PZ Myers who evidently managed to dig out a metaphorical old joke book from his vast collection of weighty tomes about the God Debate:
"Religious beliefs are lazy jokes with bad punchlines. Why do you have to chop off the skin at the end of your penis? Because god says so. Why should you abstain from pork, or shrimp, or mixing meat and dairy, or your science classes? Because they might taint your relationship with your god. Why do you have to revere a bit of dry biscuit? Because it magically turns into a god when a priest mutters over it. Why do I have to be good? Because if you aren't, a god will set you on fire for all eternity. These are ridiculous propositions. The whole business of religion is clownshoes freakin' moonshine, hallowed by nothing but unthinking tradition, fear and superstitious behavior, and an establishment of con artists who have dedicated their lives to propping up a sense of self-importance by claiming to talk to an invisible big kahuna."
Amen to that.
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156 comments
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@Flashbuck
Einsteins "God" was not theistic. Einstein did not believe in a personal god at all. He used the word "God" in the place of an unknown process or event in which the universe was first created. That is not a belief in a supreme being or deity but a acknowledgement of the unknown origins of the universe.
Maybe you should clarify what YOU mean by the word "God."
Those who say atheism (a-theism) is based on a non belief and is, therefore, a belief system in itself must also accept that not playing golf is a sport and that baldness is a hair style.
This is not an original description of the concept, but is relevant and worth repeating, I feel.
An excellent article, by the way. Many thanks Andrew Zak Williams. Neil
@Flashbuck
"Atheists are all lightweights."
The vast majority of scientists are atheists: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html
WHat is more, contrary to what you stupidly claim, Einstien was not a theist: http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/may/15/peopleinscience.controvers...
You got p'wned, mutherfuker.
'The vast majority of scientists are atheists'
That's nonsense. There are no atheists, and anyone who claims to be atheist is merely expressing belief in, and distaste for, theism. And also destroying one's intellectual reputation; but who gives a turd when the wind is blowing from the sewers.
You see, the 'best' scientists are those who are best paid, and to be best paid, it may be prudent to claim to be atheist. Lies, damn lies, statistics.
God must be real, he is mentioned at length in the bible. By the same token, Harry Potter must also be real, as there are loads of gospels available by St Joanne Rowling. And I have seen a film about Buddha, so presumably he is a real deity as well. He looks just like Keanu Reeves. Interesting world really, with all these gods around.
'Hitler was a Catholic'
Indeed, and the RCC was set up to supplant Christianity. Had Hitler won (and it was very close), he would have imposed Catholicism, but got rid of even that, once all trace of Protestantism was extinguished. There would have been no Jews and no Bibles; for most people, no physical evidence that Jesus of Nazareth ever existed. Which is what the Vatican was working on when Wycliff et al. rudely interrupted it. Hitler saw himself as completing its task- and with the Vatican's assistance. One might even say that Hitler was the tool of the Vatican.
'the Nazis were mainly Lutheran'
But Luther changed very little, and tried to preserve the status quo. All he did was point out only the most flagrant and obvious abuses of Rome in an attempt to concede as little as possible, and thereby try to outflank Christians. Catholic theology is, as every Reformer stated, thoroughly antichrist. Luther's theology was only a little less so. So there may be evidence here that moral behaviour is a reliable reflection of the truth of one's theology.
Luther's own violent antisemitism quite possibly contributed to the growth of Nazism.
'massacres backed by the Catholic and Protestant churches alike.'
All Protestant denominations outside Nazi influence have condemned antisemitism.
What it lost on most believers is they can and will argue all day long yet they fail to comprehend they have not a shred of evidence for this god they so believe in. It's an intellectual disconnect.
And claiming "so and so popular scientists believes(d) in good" is not evidence for a god, not at all.
And as an atheists I'll admit I get tired of believers portraying people like me as angry, "outspoken", etc.
If you want outspoken hatred, cruelty, misogyny, and violence, don't waste your time on the likes of Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins, just read the Bible or the Quoran.
'outspoken hatred'
Where?
@Flashbuck - are you god or are you einstein? I'm confused.
And yet, only one has credibility.
"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable
to take seriously.
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of
what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with fates and actions of
human beings.
The most beautiful and most profound religious emotion that we can experience
is the sensation of the mystical.
And this mysticality is the power of all true science."
Albert Einstein
@Keir
"The vast majority of scientists are atheists' That's nonsense. There are no atheists, and anyone who claims to be atheist is merely expressing belief in, and distaste for, theism."
I'm a living example proving you to be an idiot.
I was not raised with theism at all, never taught to believe in a god. I was Atheist from the start. Your God, however you describe it doesn't look any different than Zeus to me.
'God' is a projection of the human ego.
Wow Flashbuck, I just scrolled up and read all your comments. You're quite the know-it-all aren't you. Gold star for Flasbuck. If you are God, or Einstein for that matter, can you please make the Dino Rodeo thing happen for me?
ps. I think you're going to heaven. I think you're just the sort of person that big G wants right by his side. You're smart, quick witted, polite, gullible, friendly, modest and I bet you wear that medieval torture device around your neck to remind baby Jesus how he died. You probably won't even need to queue up at the pearly gates, there will probably be some kind of special line for you to join - like the fast track for special kids at Disney Land.
Pray for me.
Modern physics has declared -
without declaring the death of matter - that there is no matter at
all.
With the disappearance of matter and with the death of God, only
one energy remains in the whole cosmos.
Now time and space cannot be
two. They have to be expressions of one energy.
The mystics have simply expressed the oneness of all.
Physicists go into detail.
Albert Einstein, especially, was the first scientist to come to the
conclusion that time is the fourth dimension of matter.
Matter has three dimensions, the fourth dimension is invisible and that is time, but it is not separate from matter.
So, from here to here is the journey; from now to now is the pilgrimage.
Whenever you find it, it will be always here and always now.
Osho - The God Conspiracy
Too many word games in these posts. Some simple questions for those proud to proclaim blind faith:
Does it bother you at all that the bible demonstrates no insight or awareness of concepts that are commonly accepted today but were unknown to man at the time of writing?
Do you think it is at all strange that since the time of writing there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of burning bushes or men living in whale bellies? I have no hard data but my instincts tell me that both sea partings and ark production are way down as well.
If your spouse felt the best way to instill proper behaviour in your child was to threaten him with a visit from a horrific abuser who would inflict unimaginable pain and punishment on him if he failed to follow simple rules would you feel that they were demonstrating admirable parenting skills?
Do you think there is a chance your god might send the dinosaurs back to live alongside man? I think that would be exciting and quite possibly lead to the greatest rodeo ever staged.
"The idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I am unable to take seriously."
=
"The idea of a personal God is a potentially troublesome concept that I may be unable to cope with."
Before rejecting the supernatural altogether, the following fact will have to be taken into consideration. God is said to be spaceless, timeless, changeless, immortal and all-pervading. Scientists say that God does not exist. Atheists also say that God does not exist. So according to them God is imaginary. But science has treated God as real and shown that all the above five properties of God are actually scientifically explicable. Yes, with the help of the findings of special theory of relativity all these properties of God can be very nicely explained. If God is really imaginary, then why has science taken so much trouble to explain that imaginary God?
Science is neutral, but scientists are not.
For further reading, please see
http://scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/view/50
http://scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/view/62
http://scigod.com/index.php/sgj/article/view/76
'Does it bother you at all that the bible demonstrates no insight or awareness of concepts that are commonly accepted today but were unknown to man at the time of writing?'
Like the deaths of over a billion people through warfare in the last century? It has something to say on that, though not that figure.
'The time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.' 2 Tim 4:3 NIV
Anyone's ears burning?
'Do you think it is at all strange that since the time of writing there has been a dramatic decrease in the number of burning bushes or men living in whale bellies?'
No, because the cessation of such events was prophesied.
'I have no hard data but my instincts tell me that both sea partings and ark production are way down as well.'
The ark is pre-figurement of salvation. To be saved from judgement is to be in the 'ark' of justification by faith in Christ. So the use of the ark is all in the future.
But isn't atheism more of a case of believing that there isn't a god rather than not believing there is one?
In my opinion, the only true non-believers are the agnostics.
@ Keir
'The time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.' 2 Tim 4:3 NIV
Brilliantly vague. Anything on microorganisms, genetics, tectonic plates? No? Airplanes, atoms, high pressure systems? If it is there I missed it.
You skipped the most important part. Can you ask Him about the Dino-Rodeo? Ticket requests are off the chart.
I don't believe in God because I've thought about it.
Sean Locke
"To be saved from judgement is to be in the 'ark' of justification by faith in Christ."
Is this your own eschatology? The NT seems to teach that after Gog is defeated, *everyone* is judged?
You might be saved from the lake of fire because of stuff you claim to believe...but saved from the very process of divine judgment itself - really?!
Agnostics aren't non-believers in god - they think it's not possible to know either way.
Ricardo: Some of the people in the article above, and possibly all of them, maintain that they can't finally prove there isn't a God, including Richard Dawkins. So you could argue that they are agnostics, not atheists.
But that's just playing at semantics, as Bertrand Russell explains well under the question "Are agnostics atheists?" on this webpage:
http://atheistempire.com/mm_dl/text/Russell,%20Bertrand%20-%20What%20is%...
"Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear."
A fairly concise summary of what was going on at the time with the preachers who wrote the various epistles. The fear of death and mortality in those epistles is striking: being 'saved' from it seems to have been christianity's main selling-point. And to this day it is what people itch to hear: 'no, You are not going to die'. People seldom seem to believe in gods who don't give something back.
Can everyone stop ignoring the Dino-Rodeo please!
I'm thinking of a special event whereby we get a Triceratops and a T-Rex together and we DOUBLE RODEO! Jesus it will be awesome!
Also, does anyone remember what the original article was about?
There's some great one-liners in this piece that I've gotta try to remember. "Faith isn't a white horse, it's a white elephant" is probably my favourite
'*everyone* is judged?'
Judgement in the common NT sense of condemnation.
'what was going on at the time with the preachers who wrote the various epistles.'
Not necessarily preachers. It's true that there were many more heresies current then than most realise, but there have probably been more of them in the past few decades than in most of the last two millennia. And particularly since the internet began. (Quite brainless, most of them.)
'Neither would Dawkins think that Dawkins has the teeth of a Rottweiler.'
Apologies. That should read:
'Neither would Darwin think that Dawkins has the teeth of a Rottweiler.'
Einstein knew a thing or two about the universe, and Einstein believed in God. The so-called New Atheists are lightweights.
There certainly is a god, otherwise I would be wholly responsible for my own behaviour.
Besides, if there were no god then I could not be his prophet (peace be upon me), and my own religious cult would therefore have no legitimate basis. That would make me some kind of charlatan or fraudster! And that just wouldn't do.
Flashbuck, That's simply untrue. Einstein's so-called god was a pantheistic ideal, nature itself. You are proving Andrew Zak Williams' point about the faith heads prefering the Critical Of Thinking of faith rather than the Critical Thinking which goes with putting a bit of effort into getting your facts right.
For Flashbuck - Einstein was raised Jewish. In the end, you know after he knew all that stuff about the universe, he identified as agnostic and even then could quite plausibly be called an atheist who just didn't like atheists -
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the crusading spirit of the professional atheist ..."
http://atheism.about.com/od/einsteingodreligion/tp/Was-Einstein-an-Athei...
SamB
I never said Einstein was a theist, you twerp. Einstein believed the universe was created and that it exhibits design. He was a deist. Try and keep up.
You can’t convince a believer of anything; for their belief isn’t based on evidence, it’s based on a deep seated need to believe. ~ Carl Sagan
@Mark 16:08
Mark, you muppet, in the well know quote you cut and paste Einstein was talking about religion and a religious conception God, something for which he had no time. But he still believed in God. He was not an atheist.
Fine. Dino-Rodeo is off.
@Keir is this an internet heresy? yes or no. http://youtu.be/GQge_Yn-SLM
From the article itself:-
"For [Sam] Harris all that one needs to banish false knowledge is to recognise an absence of evidence."
But there's stacks of evidence for God's existence so who is Harris trying to kid?
@ Flashschmuck
Einstein used the terms such as "God" but not in a religious sense. A better explanation is provided by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion - essentially religious vernacular has infected our language over the centuries (I don't believe in God but still use terms such as "God knows").
Also, how are the New Atheists "lightweights"? Or was that just a lazy insult? You sound like a twat and that was an insult.
Atheist can't even convince themselves.
You show me an atheist, I'll show you a liar.
Agnostics are not halfway between atheism and belief in a god. Both atheists and agnostics do not have any belief in god.
What MLHallmark and praha7 said.
Also, those who are claiming Einstein believed in "god" are being superlatively disingenuous because the way he used the word has absolutely nothing in common with the way you use it and believe in it. There is nothing even remotely akin between the two. "God" is such a nebulous means-anything-therefore-means-nothing undefined word that it is devoid of any information content---effectively useless. But people blindly ignore this fact and blithely pretend that we all mean the same thing when we use the word. Or, at minimum, people delightedly read/hear the word in their own 'meaning', even if they know perfectly well (somewhere in the deep recesses of their brains) that the source who wrote/uttered it meant something entirely different, perhaps even antithetical.
Finally,
Flashbuck: what evidence, and for which god, exactly?
'it is they who must shoulder the burden of proving their case'
'Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 18
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.'
To state that the first quoted statement, that has very frequently been controverted as logically inadequate, does not contravene this Article is not a step too far. It is the only import that can be put on it, because one cannot, as a philosopher, state a position in response to that which does not exist. It is only after someone has stated that deity exists that one can demand proof. And no-one does that today. Aquinas is dead. Theism is based on personal experience, which, when push comes to shove, is nobody's business but one's own. Sartre rules- catch up, or be like Stalin.
Those who call themselves atheist do nothing but prove themselves angry theists because there is not one of their arguments that is even intelligent- if it is truthful and not misrepresentation of theism.
No, but it may be a sign that the end of the human race would not be altogether a bad thing. :)
What did Michael Faraday mean by the word 'God'?
Nice try God. Close...but not close enough: http://www.vernalrodeo.com/
lol @ the nuts saying "they are all going to hell" - so let me guess this right - all the great scientists of our time who are the ones who have enabled humanity to advance are "going to hell" but all the religious nuts which have created oppression, terror, and illiteracy (by keeping science hostage) are the people going to your fabled "heaven" to join your celestial dictator.
My - will we humans start to grow up and start to live life on rationality and logic? It is ridiculous the type of religious belief that still exists - particularly in America in comparison to the rest of western societies and the Islamic world in the most barbaric nature of religion
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