Don’t vote against AV because you hate Clegg

Both David Cameron and Nick Clegg will still be in the same jobs next week. A vote for or against AV won’t change that.

By Olly Grender Published 03 May 2011 11:49

If you have ever been at an election count, you will know that there are many imaginative ways to waste your vote: obscenities on the ballot paper, several crosses, or writing "none of the above".

But in this referendum there is a new way to waste your vote: "I am voting No, to destroy Nick Clegg", or "I am voting Yes, to destroy David Cameron". If ever there were completely fatuous reasons to vote either for or against a change in the voting system, these have to win the prize.

First, if the much-predicted drubbing of the Liberal Democrats takes place in the local elections and there is a No vote in the referendum, Nick Clegg will not stand down as leader, of that I am absolutely certain.

In order to remove Clegg as leader, 75 Liberal Democrat constituency associations would each have to hold a fully quorate extra-general meeting to pass a motion saying that he should be removed, or half the parliamentary party would have to ask him to stand down. The reality is that the often-briefed-about future contenders do not have half the parliamentary party behind them.

True grit

It is the shock of defeat that often leads to the unseating of a leader. Well, no one is going to be shocked by a negative result for the Liberal Democrats that was predicted as far back as May last year while the print was still drying on the coalition agreement.

But what about Cameron? It has been a deft move on the part of the right of his party to make him sweat so much about the result that he had to get involved. There is no doubt that a year ago Cameron thought he could take a back seat on this campaign. Rumours abound he said as much to Nick Clegg.

But the right has put the willies up Cameron sufficiently to draw out some of his true campaigning style – the smoothie we've grown accustomed to has had a good dollop of grit thrown in. However, yet again, the likelihood of unseating Cameron as leader right now is extremely remote.

So if anyone is undecided how to vote, how about considering the arguments for or against? How about deciding for yourself, not because you love or hate Margaret Beckett, Colin Firth, Eddie Izzard, Nick Clegg or David Cameron, but because you agree with the policy arguments of one side or the other?

Of one thing I am certain: win or lose, both Cameron and Clegg will still be in the same jobs next week. So may I suggest to you that if you vote to "destroy" either one of them, yours will be a wasted vote.

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39 comments

Tue, 2011-05-03 18:04 — Phil (not verified)

"Nick Clegg will still be in the same job next week".
Almost certainly.
Next month? Probably.
Next year? Almost certainly not.

Tue, 2011-05-03 19:31 — matthew fox (not verified)

This is how desperate Lib Dems are.

It is funny Lib Dems didn't have a problem Cable and Clegg laying into Gordon Brown.

Clegg made it clear he didn't want to work with Labour, Labour voters must make it crystal clear, Clegg has go, full stop.

Wed, 2011-05-04 23:46 — John Fraser (not verified)

The only reason people can think about voting to weaken those who they dislike is that both systems are so imperfect. how did things get to the stage that the Lib dems are campaigning hard for a system the do not even like?

Tue, 2011-05-03 19:47 — James (not verified)

The article is utterly biased. The only truth this piece has established, in my mind at least, is that Olly Grender grows more corpulent by the week!

Tue, 2011-05-03 20:36 — hugh markey (not verified)

Was about to consider the method used by 'Crufts' to select their overall champion. Then realised this works
with thoroughbreds exclusively.
Regretfully, I don't think the coalition would have the pedigree to gain entry.

Stan

Fri, 2011-05-06 12:56 — Charles (not verified)

It is a sad fact of life that the majority of people who HATE those of a different political viewpoint seem to be on the Left. That sort of hatred is not a safe foundation for politics. The dehumanising of opponents makes it easy to justify the unjustifiable.

Thu, 2011-05-12 11:03 — Ken Hall. (not verified)

This was not a referendum on Nick Clegg. It was also a referendum on Ed Miliband too.

I know a lot of people who were turned off by the way Miliband took over the YES campaign and pushed Clegg out of it, then refused to share a platform with Clegg at all.

This looked petulant, childish and thoroughly unprofessional and tainted the entire Yes campaign with an unprofessional, childish, sulky feel. Did the nation really want to vote along with people behaving like a spoiled six year old? Obviously not.

Comparing that with Cameron and Dr Reid's uniting behind the NO campaign made them look so much more statesmanlike, and gave their campaign gravitas and dignity.

The No campaign had political heavyweights, including the Prime Minister, and former heavyweight ministers from a very successful (in campaigning terms) former labour government. These people from diametrically opposed camps, could unite and share a stage to argue for NO.

On the other side you had a couple of party leaders seen as losers, squabbling and refusing to share a stage over an issue upon which they both agreed. The Yes campaign was truly pathetic.

The biggest loser from the AV vote is Miliband. His party, under his 'leadership' has dumped all the policies (which Ed Miliband wrote) in their last manifesto as they perform an in-depth policy review.

This means that Ed only had this ONE single, solitary policy to fight for as Labour party leader. That's it. ONE! Even then, he managed to lose the majority of his parliamentary party and even bigger majority of the labour supporters in the country and alienate his natural allies in the liberal democrats too and turn a decent lead in the opinion polls for the Yes campaign into an absolute destruction of that campaign.

Then to add insult to the campaign which he killed, he has the gall, the cheek, the unashamed audacity to lie about how much he himself was involved in the YES campaign and blame defeat on Nick Clegg instead???

NO ED, IT WAS YOU THAT LOST IT!!!

To lose is bad enough. To lose and then irrationally lie about why is even worse. Ed is delusional.

Tue, 2011-05-03 22:07 — Ivan White

My first thought was that we should boycott this referendum. Cameron has given us a choice only between AV and FPTP, merely as a sop to Nick Clegg for handing him the keys to Downing Street. It’s rather like a dictator saying that you can have a vote but there will only be two parties standing, the two that he chooses.

Some people seem to believe that AV would be a first step on the road to a fully proportional voting system. It wouldn’t be, and when asked if AV would hasten the introduction of PR, Nick Clegg said:-
“No, no. It is not a Maoist perpetual revolution. This is a once in a blue moon chance to change the electoral system, not a step to anything else”.
http://www.opendemocracy.net/ourkingdom/….-to-av-campaign

If AV is implemented and becomes accepted, why would anyone think of changing the system again? Supporters of PR are more likely to get their wish if the discredited FPTP system, which can give large majorities to a party with only about 35% of the vote (as in 2005), stays in place until demands for something much fairer reach a crescendo. Dr David Owen tends to agree:-
“I have been a long-standing supporter of proportional representation and joined the Electoral Reform Society in 1985, determinedly campaigning for proportional representation for more than two decades. This referendum will not set Britain down the path of real electoral reform; it will replace a bad system with a worse one, and risks putting off the prospect of real reform for generations.”
http://cuttingedgeuk.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=uk&action=display&thr...

I won’t boycott the referendum. I shall hold my nose and vote No on Thursday.

Tue, 2011-05-03 22:48 — Eddy S (not verified)

AV is not the answer to the problem. PR is not the answer to the problem. we need good government.

more transparency in central and local government spending, so we get more bang for the buck and we the british public decide how our money can be spent and we can also better see the benefits of investment too!

with the power of technology the british public will be empowered through more transparency in the near future.

Tue, 2011-05-03 22:55 — Herbert (not verified)

I'm voting NO - seeing the slow-motion destruction of Clegg will just be a bonus.

Tue, 2011-05-03 13:53 — writeoff (not verified)

You can vote against the LibDems locally. Wholesale slaughter of their local councillors will put huge pressure on Cleggaron.

Thu, 2011-05-05 21:24 — Luddite (not verified)

matthew fox. If you haven't anything to say, turn to your five fingered widowed friend.

Wed, 2011-05-04 07:57 — Luddite (not verified)

A vote for AV would be a political disaster for the Labour party.

Wed, 2011-05-04 08:01 — Luddite (not verified)

writeoff
03 May 2011 at 12:53
You can vote against the LibDems locally. Wholesale slaughter of their local councillors will put huge pressure on Cleggaron.

Labour supporters are going to be very disappointed on Thursday.

Wed, 2011-05-04 09:14 — swatantra nandanwar

In fact AV could be the salvation for Labour, as it would avoid any chance of a possible meltdown in the future. So Vote YES. To vote NO just because you can't stand Clegg and want to give him a bloody nose and a good kicking and send him on his way is wrong. You have to vote for positive reasons and for your principles.

Tue, 2011-05-03 11:59 — Dan Hodges (not verified)

"Don't vote against AV because you hate Clegg".

No, do...

Tue, 2011-05-03 12:01 — hugh markey (not verified)

Yup! A hideous little compromise. No, not AV system - the Coalition agreement. A sort of Munich agreement between equals. Hilarious - if it weren't so sad.

Faust

Tue, 2011-05-03 12:03 — Pete Price (not verified)

I'm voting no, because I hate Nick Clegg :) Almost every election would have been the same under AV - it's hardly a change. And voting no destablizes Clegg and the coalition. So feel free to have fun at the ballot box :)

Tue, 2011-05-03 12:30 — Matthew Evans (not verified)

Of course they will be in the same jobs next week. The reason to vote against AV is that it would mean that Nick Clegg would stay in that job forever. And he is such a blot on the idea of truth in public life he has to be smudged out.

Wed, 2011-05-04 14:22 — Willp

How can giving Tory free-marketeer Clegg, or his Tory free-marketeer successor, the power to decide the complexion of the government be Labour's salvation?
Voting No to AV will hit the weakest link in the enemy, the LibDems. Voting Yes would boost the LibDems, by encouraging them to unite to stay in the government.
Voting No robs them of their sole justification for supporting the government. Their supporters, unlike the Tories, are not all enamoured of the cuts, the destruction of the NHS, the broken promises on tuition fees, bankers' bonuses, etc, etc.
If Clegg and his miserable band of MPs don't even deliver on AV, then LibDem supporters will want to pull them out of government. This will weaken the government, and may even bring it down, thus saving the NHS.

Tue, 2011-05-03 12:58 — swatantra nandanwar

There are even more reasons to vote YES to AV, and thats what I'll be doing.

Tue, 2011-05-03 13:10 — Chris (not verified)

@Olly

I can't decide! I f*cking loathe you, Clegg and the rest of your lying, sanctimonious, yellow tory bastard tribe. You've lied so much you've made Blair look like an honest man. Yet I hate Cameron & Osborne more, they're vile f*ck pigs.

Tue, 2011-05-03 13:47 — crabstix (not verified)

I loathe the lying bastard Clegg but I will vote yes because I hate Cameron and Osborne even more.

Tue, 2011-05-03 14:05 — Benjamin Rae (not verified)

This is a rather irritating article. The writers motives are clear. I am inclined to support the change as a first step to a proportional system however there is an arrogant finger wagging tone to this article. It's perfectly valid if a little short sighted to vote against the change in revenge for the betrayal of the Lib Dems.
The likes of Cable and Huhne's claims that the Lib Dems form part of a progressive majority ring a little hollow when considering they are enabling the biggest program of social regression in living memory. This Tory party are the most right wing governing party post war.
People voting on the basis that they don't want a system that will favour a party who misrepresented themselves so starkly are fair enough.
It is not for the writer to tell them they are wrong

Wed, 2011-10-05 07:34 — Federico

The government has two parts: the larger Tory part wants you to vote No; the smaller, weaker, LibDem part wants you to vote Yes. You can't vote in the referendum against both parts. Every strategist knows that it is best to attack at the enemy's weakest point, not at its strongest.http://www.bestgardeningtips.net/

Tue, 2011-05-03 14:15 — Kevin Colwill (not verified)

At the very best AV is small step towards fair votes. Most likely it's fair votes side-stepped. Whatever it is very few people are listening to the arguments. When will yes supporters realise it’s the wrong referendum at the wrong time with a lacklustre yes campaign to boot.
Want to play the blame game? Don’t blame those who want to kick Clegg, blame the Lib Dem negotiating team for throwing away any chance of securing electoral reform. In fact why not cut out the middle men and just blame Nick Clegg?
Trouble is Lib Dems are so busy glorying in their own self sacrifice that Nick will breeze on unscathed.

Fri, 2011-05-06 17:45 — Luddite (not verified)

Well said Charles. It's Friday. Are Labour celebrating?

Tue, 2011-05-03 14:37 — sandwiches

Given the volte-face on the tuition fees pledge, justified by the argument that coalition necessities took precedence over election pledges, voting against a system widely thought to increase the chances of coalitions seems reasonable.

Tue, 2011-05-03 14:41 — martybee (not verified)

I cannot abide the thought Of Clegg or his successor choosing the government in the event of another Hung parliament which I think will happen more often under an A voting system.

Tue, 2011-05-03 15:17 — Willp

Ms Grender is completely wrong.
The issue of voting reform is far less important than, say, the destruction of the NHS.
So we should use this referendum to weaken this destructive government.
The government has two parts: the larger Tory part wants you to vote No; the smaller, weaker, LibDem part wants you to vote Yes. You can't vote in the referendum against both parts.
Every strategist knows that it is best to attack at the enemy's weakest point, not at its strongest.
The Tories could better survive a referendum defeat. The LibDems would find it far harder to survive a defeat: what else could they offer their demoralised troops?
So to hit this destructive government hardest, we have to vote No.

Tue, 2011-05-03 15:44 — Dave C (not verified)

"But the right have sufficiently put the willies up Cameron..."

An arresting image, but the more usual phrase would be "But the right have given Cameron the willies".

Wed, 2011-05-04 18:51 — Mulligrubs (not verified)

If the electorate did vote against AV Clegg on the basis of his despicable policy U-turns and coalition- power- clamour - then he would and will get exactly what he deserves - and the failure of AV will be down to his toxic presence and baggage in the Yes campaign. But hate Clegg? That's a bit strong - hate should be reserved for the philistine louts that are prepared to preside over the closure of Public Libraries. We all know who they are. Oh! hang on a minute . . .

Wed, 2011-05-04 19:03 — PeteyMcPeterson

Nick Clegg is the saddest man in Britian right now. He is going to crash and burn at the next election and it's going to be hilarious to watch. This nasty coalition will be nothing but a bad memory before too long. But the effect of this referendum on electoral reform will be with us for decades. Voting no would ensure things stay exactly the same for a generation. FPTP has consistently given us asshole politicians like the current bunch. We have a chance not to change things and maybe one day get a goverment we actually like. I can't believe how many people would condsider wasting that chance just to stick the boot in to Clegg. The man is a pathetic little turd, he has turned on his supporters and I look forward to seeing him crushed at the next election. But we have a massive chance here, Clegg is just not worth it. I'd happily slap him if I met him, but he's not worth wasting this shot on.

Olly, your involvement in this argument is not helping.

Tue, 2011-05-03 16:17 — Graeme (not verified)

I do hate Clegg for the damage he is doing to our people and our country. If voting No helps, so be it. But apart from that, AV is such a crap idea, doesn't stand up to any examination. I would vote No in any event.

Tue, 2011-05-10 12:14 — Reginald-Fah-fah

I ready hope that history will be kinder to Right Honourable Nick Clegg DPM than publics' opinion at the moment.

Last night, a TV programme on Four casked a shadow on this person.

Wed, 2011-05-04 19:37 — Luddite (not verified)

PeteyMcPeterson
04 May 2011 at 18:03 So what is your alternative to responsible government, the return of Mr Brown and the economically discredited Labour party?

Tue, 2011-05-03 16:40 — Kevin Colwill (not verified)

When the dust settles a single tiny glimmer of light for fair votes fans might be that the Party List system gets looked at again.
Rank ordering candidates, no matter what supporters of AV or even STV say, is ultra tactical. It encourages votes/preferences for the least bad candidate rather than a positive support for who you really want.
Under AV all votes get counted but don’t kid yourself that they all really count. Even as you put your 1 against your preferred minority candidate you know that “vote” will be binned. AV does not change electoral maths. In a Tory/Lib Dem marginal it doesn’t matter where you rank Labour, Green etc. All that matters is whether you rank the Lib Dem above the Tory or vice versa. That’s your real choice and just a tactical (and these days totally pointless) a choice as under FPTP.
A party list, multi-member constituency approach allows all votes a chance to genuinely count, not just be counted.
Shame the Lib Dems have made voting reform a toxic issue for years to come.