This house believes whistleblowers make the world a safer place: Part II
Pictures, audio and reaction from the second half of Saturday’s Frontline Club New Statesman
By Staff blogger Published 10 April 2011 17:28
This is the second part of the New Statesman's report on the whistleblowers' debate. For the first, covering the speech by Julian Assange (including video), click here.
If anyone had feared that interest levels would drop after Julian Assange finished his speech, they were about to be proved wrong. The debate got more heated as the evening progressed.
Bob Ayers, following the WikiLeaks founder, immediately took him to task over the chronology of the Gulf of Tonkin incident he'd outlined in his speech, at which Assange leapt to his feet with a point of information.
-- Julian Assange debate: in pictures --
Ayers wasn't giving way, though, sternly telling Assange that he hadn't interrupted during his speech, and he expected the same "courtesy". Assange persisted, and Ayers barked: "Sit down!" This didn't go down very well with the audience; neither did Ayers's assertion that there were other words for whistleblowers – "rats", "sneaks", "snitches" and "traitors".
Clayton Swisher of al-Jazeera tried to get in another point of information – his was allowed this time. He told Ayers that he'd also previously worked for a government organisation, in which the term "snitch" was used for informants on drug and other criminal cases. Governments liked snitches when it suited them.
Ayers acknowledged this and resumed his speech. The crux of it was that those in possession of sensitive information swore an oath of secrecy, which should not be broken.
At this point, there was a pause to hear from two whistleblowers – Annie Machon, ex-MI5 agent and partner of David Shayler; and Paul Moore, who spoke out about the over-leveraging of HBoS and lost his job in consequence.
Machon spoke first; she was engaging and forthright. She told Ayers that she had never "sworn an oath" of secrecy and that she had been obliged to speak out publicly because there were no internal procedures that allowed wrongdoing to be exposed. "The fourth estate are very easily controlled by the government and the intelligence agencies," she said, adding: "We need some sort of legal channel to protect whistleblowers."
Douglas Murray asked to come back on this and showed he wasn't afraid to make the debate personal, citing Machon's "9/11 denial" and asserting that she worked at only a "low level" in MI5. He told her: "Being in the secret service means you should keep secrets."
Machon was unbowed, getting rapturous applause for saying: "We signed the Official Secrets Act to protect secrets, not crimes." She added: "I know a lot more than someone who was never on the inside at all."
Next up was Paul Moore. He kicked off by quoting Dwight D Eisenhower – "never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion" – before delivering a passionate (and at times painful to hear) speech on the personal cost of whistleblowing. He was outraged that there was no whistleblower on the proposition side, and produced his own whistle from his pocket to blow in protest.
Moore went on to say that transparency leads to a better world, but his own actions had cost him job and left him seriously depressed. He said that whistleblowers were treated like "lepers" and "toxic waste"; but that if more people had spoken out about the banks' sharp practices in the run-up to the crunch, the lives of much of the British population would be better.
Before Moore went back to his seat, he read out a birthday card from his daughter, received at the height of the storm over his revelations. In it, she told him he was a good person, and to carry on doing what he was doing. It was a heartfelt moment.
After this, the chairman, Jason Cowley, decided to read out some questions submitted through the New Statesman website. The first was to Julian Assange (photos of him speaking can be found here). Cowley asked him whether he was concerned about the "collateral damage" charge against WikiLeaks: the possible harm to informants in Afghanistan, for example.
Assange replied that "WikiLeaks has never got it wrong" and the charge that not enough redacting of the documents took place was "hot air" from the Pentagon. In an assertion that cut little ice with those live-tweeting the event, he advised people to google "Pentagon" and "blood on its hands" versus "WikiLeaks" and "blood on its hands" and compare the number of hits. As Samira Shackle tweeted, he "seems to think that internet search results are an indicator of guilt".
After a bit of a to-do over whether Murray should respond to this – he said he preferred to "keep his powder dry" for his upcoming speech – it was agreed that Mehdi Hasan would deliver the final proposition speech next.
As anyone who's seen him on Question Time will testify, Hasan can never be accused of being a boring debater. "Technically the best speaker of the night," is the journalist Patrick Smith's verdict (he's uploaded a decent-quality audioboo of the speech here). "The real star of this debate," said Nasri Atallah.
"I've been to countless debates on fox-hunting and there were no foxes on the panel," joked Hasan, addressing Paul Moore's complaint. He continued: "I don't want to talk about Julian. I want to talk about a man named Joe Darby . . . a high-school graduate from small-town Pennsylvania who joined the US army reserves at the age of 19, and was posted to Iraq at the age of 24."
In 2004, Darby received two CDs of images of prisoner abuse at the US-run Abu Ghraib Prison in Iraq. "To use the lingo of the military, he ratted on his friends," said Hasan, outlining how Darby lived in fear for his life, sleeping with a pistol under his pillow, moving house and eventually quitting the army.
This was the essence of whistleblowing, said Hasan – principled disclosure for the greater good. Until governments are perfect, we need whistleblowers. He also drew a distinction between spies who take an oath of secrecy and ordinary soldiers who uncover abuse, ending rousingly with a question addressed to Bob Ayers: "I'm here for the whistleblowers and the men who were tortured. Who are you here for?" (There is some early video footage here; higher quality on its way.)
Closing the debate was Douglas Murray, self-described neocon and Mehdi Hasan's nemesis (they regularly debate each other on a range of issues, including Islam and multiculturalism). Murray cleverly decided that he couldn't match Hasan's passionate invective and opted to start his speech softly. "I agree with Mehdi," he began. "It is perfectly true that democracy can be dishonest and corrupt. It is a deeply flawed system. It is, as Churchill said, the worst system going – except for all the others."
Murray's speech grew in intensity from here as he repeatedly asked Assange the question: "Are you sure you know what you're doing?" As Assange itched to answer him back, he continued: "Are you sure you know what you're doing when you release an element of chaos into the Middle East, a region that doesn't need any more conspiracy theories?" He argued that democracies have checks and balances, and elections (one of which threw out the government that went to war over Iraq, he noted).
He raised the idea that whistleblowers have too much power and that their actions have consequences they do not intend. When he mentioned Annie Machon's disclosure that MI6 was considering an assassination attempt on Muammar al-Gaddafi, he asked: "Are you sure it was a good idea for Colonel Gaddafi to know that?"
Assange had had enough, and jumped up again. Murray rebuffed him, saying he was going to ask him a lot of questions, and he would have the time to answer them at the end.
A bit of a stand-off ensued (photo here) but Jason Cowley eventually persuaded him to sit down by promising Assange that he could speak later.
Murray's next point was whether Assange had any idea what foreign intelligence agencies, hostile to the US, would make of the cables. He began to say it was all very well for al-Jazeera, which was "implacably hostile to the state of Israel", to release cables showing it in a bad light – and at this point Swisher (who works at al-Jazeera) jumped up.
Murray was still having none of it, cuttingly remarking that Swisher would have his time, and anyway he worked in Qatar, "not exactly an open, democratic government". Now he was really on the offensive (leading several tweeters and bloggers to describe him as the opposition's "attack dog").
"What happens to whistleblowers?" Murray asked. "If Mr Assange is anything to go by, it's a lovely life, you can make a lot of money, you can get a lot of admirers . . ."
Mehdi Hasan then became the third on the proposition side to try to raise a point of order, but was also batted aside. It felt a bit like a very polite game of whack-a-mole. Murray ploughed on, asking Assange more questions: why had WikiLeaks not released secrets about Russia? Was it because the FSB (the Russian secret police) actually assassinated journalists?
At this point, Assange stood up, and this time got his point of information. He said that colleagues of his had been assassinated, and would Murray "please do his research before making comments like that". Murray didn't back down, moving on to make reference to the Guardian's claim that Assange "didn't care" about Afghan informants who were identified as a result of the release of the war logs.
Assange hit back: "Point of order! We are in the process of suing the Guardian . . ." After a bit of back and forth about libel laws – Assange said he has campaigned for their reform, but that people should have recourse when allegations are made against them – Murray drawled: "I think I'll take from that that Mr Assange thinks libel law is good when he's using it."
Jason Cowley announced that no more points of order would be allowed: Murray should finish his speech uninterrupted. And so he built to a series of questions: where does WikiLeaks get its funding from? Who works for it? What are its links to the Holocaust denier Israel Shamir? What right does it have to decide what we should know? "Governments are elected," he declared. "You, Mr Assange, are not. Who guards the guardians? Or, in this case, who guards the Guardian's guardians?"
He then addressed Assange directly, referring to his phone call to Ian Hislop of Private Eye, saying he had become lost in the "fever swamps of conspiracy".
Assange was allowed time to respond. "Mr Murray has nothing to say about the motion here tonight, if he has resorted, like so many of that type, to personal attacks on me, and my organisation, which are of course unfounded," he said. Assange added that he would reply to the "most interesting" of Murray's questions, which was how WikiLeaks was funded – it was directly supported by the public, who "voted with their wallets every week" with donations.
"That dynamic feedback between us, whistleblowers, and the public, I say, is more responsive than a government structure elected after sourcing money from big business once every four years," he concluded. (Esther Addley of the Guardian used this as the intro to her report on the event here.) Murray wanted to know more, asking if he could confirm whether WikiLeaks received money from anyone other than the public.
"You think you're better than our governments," he told Assange. "That's because he is!" shouted a fan from the floor. Murray took this triumphantly, as a sign that the Assangistas are too slavishly devoted to the man rather than the idea.
Assange's PA scurried on stage to drag him back to Norfolk to meet his bail conditions, barely giving Jason Cowley enough to time to take another vote. Murray's bombastic speech had clearly done its work, because he seemed to have converted some of the pro side to his cause.
And with that, Assange departed the stage with a rock-star wave, and was gone.
Thanks to Patrick Smith, whose audio recordings were invaluable. You can listen to them here. To read the live tweets, search for the hashtag #fcnsdebate. Video from the event will be available later.
Latest tweets
More from New Statesman
- Online writers:
- Steven Baxter
- Rowenna Davis
- David Allen Green
- Mehdi Hasan
- Nelson Jones
- Gavin Kelly
- Helen Lewis
- Laurie Penny
- The V Spot
- Alex Hern
- Martha Gill
- Alan White
- Samira Shackle
- Alex Andreou
- Nicky Woolf in America
- Bim Adewunmi
- Glosswitch
- Kate Mossman on pop
- Ryan Gilbey on Film
- Martin Robbins
- Rafael Behr
- Eleanor Margolis
- Tools and services:
- Polls
- Predictions
- Archive
- Magazine
- PDF edition
- RSS feeds
- Advertising
- Subscribe
- Special supplements
- Stockists



















25 comments
Craig Murray, former ambassador, was originally invited to take part in this debate until the Frontline Club performed an aboutface and de-invited him. I think he would have been a valuable participant, seeing as how he actually was a whistleblower himself.
"Murray's bombastic speech had clearly done its work, because he seemed to have converted some of the pro side to his cause."
Actually, from my perch on the stage, the numbers supporting the pro-side at the end had gone up and the numbers abstaining or in opposition went down...
The question of Assange's connections with Israel Shamir won't go away until *fully* dealt with.
Thus far, we've have the type of statement from Wikileaks that are typically put out by government departments, which deny all, say very little and don't address the nub of the issues concerning Assange and Shamir. Not very convincing.
"That dynamic feedback between us, whistleblowers, and the public, I say, is more responsive than a government structure elected after sourcing money from big business once every four years,"
Is there really any difference between what Assange describes as;
"..us, whistleblowers, and the public,"?
I'm wondering why the God given capacity to express one's position freely and autonomously as a citizen needs to be classified in such apparently discrete terms.
What I mean to say is that the position of one who raises a concern ie a genuine concern that can't be addressed by any of the usual channels eg appeal or disciplinary type procedures - is surely common to all citizens when we think it necessary and/or appropriate. But sometimes we might not know who to raise our concerns with - due to the usual frustrations.
-Raising a concern with one's M.P here in the UK.,EU may be one of the most important and rightful positions a citizen together with their M.P. can actually manage autonomously. In my view it has to be like this because some of us may happen to be very private and unlikely to join any kind of association or union.
So I can tell we already have a suitable legal channel here in the UK for so-called whistleblowing or raising a concern - it involves mutually respectful and equal dialogue with one's elected member of Parliament - sometimes known as an M.P's surgery. Parliamentary democracy and all it entails is actually neutral in the sense that it doesn't depend on political party or big business concerns, whatever direction these may be taking. It depends on the local, timely, rigorous and relevant dialogue between citizens and our M.P's during Parliamentary terms times as well via elections.
MURRAY IS A GOOD TALKER,BUT HE USES A GAMEPLAN OF BULLSHIT BAFFLES BRAINS.HE ALIGNS WITH THE ELITE BECAUSE HE IS OF THE ELITISM TRIBE WHICH NEEDS TO EXPOSED.HE MOCKS & BELITTLES THE TRUTH.BASICALLY HE WOULD LIE & COVERUP THE TRUTH TO KEEP HIS ELITE TRIBE IN PLACE
I was the person that shouted when the arrogant and thoroughly unaware Douglas Murray claimed that Julian Assange believed he was 'better than government'.
To clarify my 'that's because he is' comment, I am not a Julian Assange groupie, I am a supporter of Wikileaks. Julian Assange IS better than governments because we have been proven time and time again that our governments supress information from us, lie to us and murder people all over the world. So yes, Julian Assange is better than our murderous corrupt governments.
I also found it interesting to know that Mr Murray has a written a book about the joys of neoconservatism and why it works. Is it any surprise that he is against Wikileaks and Julian Assange in particular? Mr Murray brought nothing to the table, neither did the other two speakers against the motion. Mr Murray's argument was based almost entirely on personal attacks and character assasination.
So to clarify, I am not 'slavishly devoted' to Julian Assange, I am devoted to the act of telling the truth, to freedom of speech and to the end of murderous, corrupt governments.
darby turned the pics in b/c he had a score to settle and he was egged on by hubbard and jones not b/c he cared anything about those detainees or what was right. he was too stupid to realize what he was getting himself into or he would never have done it.
please dont confuse him with a hero..
unless the higher ups are going to be held accountable whats the point of blowing the whistle. now Obama is hiring the former psycologist from Abu... promotion for torture.
why blow the whistle if all you get is shit on and no one pays but the lowest and least culpable in my book. and you can argue with me all you want but i was there and most likely you werent and there were all kinds off officers on tier 1A seeing the sights and and rummy was calling every day and bush and cheney just admitted what they knew and approved of yet only 11 enlisted soldiers got busted. f that.
and please dont say blowing the whistle stops anything b/c it hasnt and basically all i observe about people is that they dont give a rats ass about iraqis and keep torturing them. torture our own prisoners in america.. hell they are brutally worse than anything that went on at abu. nothing has changed, nothing has stopped, americans approve and im sad i was ever there.
look at that crazy ny senator? who is basically saying middle class muslims def. know what terrorists are doing and they better fess up or else. how stupid, thats like saying middle class whites should know what kkk members are doing; middle class blaacks gang members are doing,etc.. that is scary
Good for you, @veteranOfAbuGraib! It is very classic that the little guys get screwed and the big guys get off scott-free. This kind of thing has to be changed. How I dont know yet, but if enough ordinary people start to understand, then we can through numbers defeat the system and the people who run that system....
Alex Weir, London and Harare
Medhi comes across as some idealistic student who hasn't woken up to the realities of the world.
Murray comes across as a realist, an honest broker, someone who tells it how it is...
The US military pays for people with false identities to make comments that attack anything negative about the United States. The method employed is character assassination and career trashing. Comments smearing Julian Assange, whether made by paid agents or not, have the stench of the US department of psychological operations and warfare and should be classified and treated as such -- worthless, manipulative, secretively sourced, and condescending.
@david leigh: he does it to protect himself.
@David Lucier: US federal officials are as we speak studying Julian's financial records. People who support Juliain openly are also under financial scrutiny. This is the very underbelly of the CIA. A tangle of electronic money will be unravelled revealing a taxation case to be answered. It is written in the stars.
Medhi 0 - 3 Murray
Just give up man, you get worse every time you make a public appearance.
@Alex Weir. Got to agree with what you say.. but the big question is how to defeat the system? And what sort of system are we defeating? I see change via community ecological housing, where we have small groups of individuals (about 15 households) encouraging other groups to be formed in similar ways, increasingly moving away from 'central' government ties.
The question is not so much whether we should demand total transparency of government but how do we achieve total freedom from it.
There will always be layers of transparency, and secret information deemed to be in the 'national security' interest. And there will always be those who are disgruntled with their lives in government organisations who want to vent.
How do ordinary people get rid of central government ... by forming financially independent groups .. that's how we defeat the system.
Alex, where do you primarily live? And what do you do to 'live' in two places?
See this video of Murray on youtube. Whoever made it clearly dislikes him.
It's titled UK Conservative Idiot on Waterboarding, and shows Murray defending the use of tortue:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1orGTxjcLCA
Excellent performance by Murray:
It's too bad when an opportunity like this happens, the right wing side just takes cheap shots at the other and calls it a "debate".
But also, what about the other whistleblowers who don't have celeb mates like John Pilger and Daniel Ellsberg? Who's going to help them? The truth is Obama has essentially gutted much of the whistleblower protection that used to be in place in the States.
Who funds Wikileaks? A less shady, secretive, venal and sinister group of people than those who fund the Conservative Party.
Someone exposing a wrong or an act of corruption is different than dumping hundreds of thousands secret documents and communications into the world for anyone to pick through. The ability to communicate, debate, discuss, and build coalitions is dependent on most of this communication being secret. Let’s not kid ourselves what Wikileaks is doing is generally attempting to disrupt anything done by the US or UK based political ideology.
I have to say that Murray is a great speaker. He wipes the floor with just about everyone up against him on the debating floor.
Thank god that in a democracy I can decide not to support Wikileaks. Assange is clearly a politician and not a journalist.
Shouldn't the hyperlink be "going" instead of "gone".
And wasn't the birthday card from his son?
Just sayin'.
Fully agree that Douglas Murray had absolutely no logical arguements to counter the motion, so resorted to petty personal attacks which were totally irrelevant to the subject at hand.
I have to keep straightening the record. Assange is NOT suing the Guardian or me for libel. No complaint received. This appears to be merely a lie. Why on earth does he do it?
Douglas Murray, an unscrupulous nonety offending the memory of the Holocaust victims by using the past tragedy for self-promotion. People like him are always on the side of “haves.” The ideas of honesty, decency, altruism, and common good are foreign to Murray. Yet he is just parroting the old and coquettish David Leigh. They both have same talking points.