To all David M supporters -
Winning is important of course, but once in power what are we to do? Who will benefit from the next Labour Administration? Who backs your candidate?
Victory on election day is always sweet, but will turn sour very quickly if we repeat the past mistakes of new labour.
We lost so many votes after 2001 - the last election in which people voted for new labour with any hope of change, rather than to simply keep the Tories out.
David is far too close to, and backed by, some very unsavoury characters, and Mandy is only the tp of the iceberg.

Hi Ang,

It wasn't meant to read like a lesson! Sorry! I was explaining why New Labour is cast in such a poor light, despite the fantastic good they did, as I saw it.

I have to disagree with you on DM though in every way, I think he's the last person to pull this party together and get the voters back - but I respect your opinion.

Lou and Ang, you'll know from other posts that I've got a great deal of respect for both of your views on the current state of play. Personally speaking, I think you make some very valid points Lou on how things changed since 03, it was probably a bit earlier than that when Labour started to lose some of its identity. I do think Iraq did Labour a great deal of harm (although the Tories would not have done anything different) and to counteract the lost vote, they did take up too many of the out of kilter right ideas. None the less, Tony Blair did a great deal to salvage the Party by making it electable and keeping us in power for a good 13 years. I do belive the party values are critical now, it would be a tragedy to abandon all that Labour stands for. You'll know my particular angle is on welfare and the upholding of a welfare state that provides for those in need of its support. There is a lot that Labour did wrong, but equally they did a lot that was right. To me David Miliband (I know you don't share the same view Lou) will be bold enough to say Labour has to take lessons from the past and I believe he will, he will also concentrate how it is the now which counts. Most importantly, I think he has the ability to lead and delegate responsibilities of office according to levels of talent which can be found in the Labour party, I also think he will put in place an effective strategy for slower deficit reduction whilst upholding the welfare state. Ed M worries me as he is just too like Clegg, I just can't see him being as bold in argument and strategy as his brother will be. What is vital is that we select a leader who will take the coalition on and provide the country with a credible alternative, but that's only my view.

I would just point out there is another 'Nick' on here by the way, he votes for Ed M, thus it gets a little confusing as to which view may be the one I express.

Hi Nick

Re your - ' Tony Blair did a great deal to salvage the Party by making it electable and keeping us in power for a good 13 years. I do belive the party values are critical now, it would be a tragedy to abandon all that Labour stands for@

I agree. I was making the point that new Labour did fantatstic work and the centre left political way was the way to go but we detracted from that centre left ideology and moved too far to the right and left much of what was left politics behind.

Blair was brilliant but then he became full of his own self import - colleagues & party opinion mattered less in government and he ignored the people who swept him into power.

If Blair had gone sooner followed by an election for leader then I do believe we would still have been in power now but the last five years ruined Labour's election chances by all the infighting,hanging on, the abandoning of left politics in favour of centre right only.

The New Labour political way has been tainted forever by it's main players Campbell, Mandy and Blair and most people identify New Labour with those three people and hate all it stands for rather than differentiating between the players and the political ideology that did so much good and changed things for the better.

We agree on many things Nick but we will have to disagree on DM, I remain unconvinced I am sorry.

In all honesty, I haven't made my mind up yet where to cast my vote apart from it not being a certain someone. On a side note, I do like Ed Balls proposal on housing today.

Do you think it's a done deal for DM?

Lou is abolutelty right. As far as I am concerned there has always been just one Party, Labour. When the term 'new' was introduced it was not to herald the formtion of a new Party, but the remodelling or rebranding or bringing the Labour Party up to date. Organisations have to reinvent themselves every now and again to keep abreast of the times. So it makes me angry when people like Mandy still talk as though 'New Labour' is a new Party. It isn't; there has only ever been one Labour Party and its called The Labour Party. So I wish people stopped using the term 'new' in front of 'Labour'.
What we are all saying is 'new' is now no longer 'new'. We need to reinvent ourselves again. But we'll still be 'Labour'.

Can we first lay to rest the New Labour lie that until Blair, we were not going to win the 97 election anyway? John Smith was already seen as PM in waiting, and we were far ahead in the polls.
New Labour was a hysterical, and often unreasoning response to 18 years of opposition, not the only way to regain power.
We need to regain ground, and establish ourselves as a credible government in waiting, whilst all the time fighting this dreadful shower. Simply putting a young right wing face in front will not do this.

"The psephological reality is that Labour has lost 5 million votes since 1997, only 1 million of which went to the Tories. It will not win them back by playing the same old Blairite tunes"

Totally agree and would like to know why Mandy and Campbell think we lost five million voters in the first place and how many more do they think would be lost if all that is New Labour remains?

I'm afraid these two are a pair of redundant ostriches with their heads stuck in the sand - or maybe somewhere else :o) - and totally oblivious to the fact that five million lost voters speaks volumes about New Labour as an ideology

If anyone is guilty of being a preacher in a pulpit rather than a leader of a party, it's Mandy, Campbell and Blair.

It will probably benefit Ed Miliband himself, given the distrust and general loathing of Mandelson from the public and Labour Party membersas a whole.

Response to Ang post 2046 30/8.
For the record you missed my point entirely, I was not inferring that New Labour was some kind of "nazi organisation". Instead I was pointing out that it was the most electorally successful chapter in the history of the Labour Party. Therefore capable of putting into practice the kind of things you went onto describe in your post. These are the kind of things that cannot be achieved in opposition.
P.S. I also come from a working class family

so what is a nazi you might say,launching aggresive wars against other nations like hitler done.well lets examine the facts,from the illegal war against the people of serbia to the illegal war against the people of iraq that kind of puts new labour alongside hitler and when there fuhrer tony blair appears before the war crime tribunial at the hague history will judge him as the biggest mass murderer of muslims in the world with his new labour war machine.

Now is the time for Ed Balls and Dianne Abbott to withdraw from the contest and throw their votes behind Andy Burnham, just to stop the Millibands. Tey will not lose face for doing so.
Ed Milliband is also welcome to join the Stop Milliband Campaign if he wants to.

Freeman's post far and away the most interesting. Diane still has my vote

Who could bring themselves to vote for awful David Miliband? David would push the party to the right. After the Lib Dems have given up the centre left ground we need Labour to change.

I don't particularly like Mandelson, but the 2 quotes in the article make a lot of sense. We need a leader who can fight this tory government, Ed just doesn't look like he's got a fight in him. Also, in todays Guardian Cameron acknowledged (privately) that David Miliband poses the only threat to them.

they're winning it for you ed,say nowt

@Clemthegem. I think you are quite naive to think that we can trust any politician, why should we trust Ed? All politicians are tainted in some way. At this moment, the only credible alternative we need, is a Labour government, instead of a tory one and David Miliband is the only leader who will threaten the tories.

@Dave T.I don't know why people talk about New labour as if it was some kind of nazi orginisation. I am working class, and proud to be. My family have benefited greatly from the last 13 years eg full-time work, tax credits, much better school buildings and education (my son has just gained 3 As enabling him to study law at Liverpool uni) My daughter, who has down syndrome, had amazing care when she needed open-heart surgery and has been in mainstream education from 3 and now attends an amazing secondary school, where she will take 2 Gcses. I applaud labour for pumping money into public services and enriching ordinary ppeoples lives.

In 96 Labour rebranded themselves under Blair as New labour and in a manifesto set out their idea of a third way centre left political ideology.

Everything you say Ang I can agree with wholeheartedly. I have benefited myself and can see all the fantastic work that New Labour bought about everyday around me.

For me, from about 2003, Blair with his autocratic style of government took the party away from the centre left politically, we no longer could be seen to be pulling left and right politics into centre ground, we lost our identity and were seen to be far removed from Labour at it's heart.

New Labour began to taste a bit sour and clearly was no longer what it said on the label. Iraq was a pivotal political turning point for those of us who had hung on in there and from 2005 there was no turning back. Blair should have gone earlier and Brown should have faced an election for any chance of New Labour as an ideology remaining.

The New Labour architects and conductors destroyed new labour - they became bigger than the cause and lost sight of their very reasons for being - us, the people. Compound that with the infighting, back stabbing, plotting and the split between the party itself and New Labour couldn't go any other way than to the history books.

The sentiment behind this article is a bit hypocritical to say the least. The NS establishment have been trying to make Ed Miliband look like the new Barry O'Bama and have tried to make other candidates look like a joke.

Rather than try and be an informative political paper for the left, the NS is simply a propaganda machine for the Ed Miliband leadership campaign.

"We're not looking for a preacher as our leader," quoth Mandy. Quite right. We had one of those in the holy warrior, the former MP for Sedgefield.

The Labour Party now has fewer MPs and fewer votes than it achieved in the alleged 'comfort zone' days of Neil Kinnock (who by the way had to do and endure much much more than the Rev Blair in opposition. Blair was handed victory on a plate).

Seems to me that Mandy, Al and a few others, not least the Rev himself, have something to do with the present situation.

Best all round for them to keep quiet. They must know these quotes will be flung back in the face of whoever emerges (unless it is their anointed one).

The best bet for Labour is someone who can take on the Tories and attract disillusioned Lib Dems. That means Ed for leader.

Just working out which Ed that's the hard part.