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134 comments from readers

nawawimohamad
26 August 2008 at 11:26

I don't believe in dieties because the total number of deities will be infinity. Can anybody tell me how many?

It is simpler and most practical to be believe in just one God, directly with God with no intermediaries. And no superstitions either.

bengrimwood
26 August 2008 at 12:32

Two words about Dorje Shugden and why he was denounced: "Yellow Book" It was penned in 1975. It describes 23 lamas killed by Shugden because they strayed from his sect, his 'purity' - there are more tibetan texts that need translating which will further confirm Shugdens role not as a protector diety but as a malevolent demon.

karma
26 August 2008 at 12:56

Dordje shugden, is a wrathfull emanation, and practised in gelugpa tradition.

It's very powerfull.

It is usually misunderstood, when HH dalai lama asks not do this kind of a practise.

There's nothing wrong practising it, as long as you keep in mind that whatever you do, should be in the interest to take away suffering for

all sentient beings.

Now That gelug lama' have this deity as a personal protector, ok.

what it does is i.e. you can overcome hindraces, or you can defeat your enemy.

and here's the danger: supose that chinese are the enemy for you, and you use your energy to battle this, so can your enemy do the

same withe the same deity.

It is sad, that some lama's complain in the open, instead of continuing their practise quietly.

because some of them reside in the uk.

It's another sad thing that uk people become buddhist because of this forbidden practise. and go out on the street and shout what kind

of a criminal his holiness is, and what lies he's telling.

While for HH compassion comes in the first place.

myself I'm a kagyu practitioner, but I'm open for all other schools. an aswer to previuos q: there are 86.000 goddess and goddesses,

none of them are truly existing, but merely an emanation of, compassion, wisdom, liberation, healing, and so on. in othe'r words a God

is just a reflection like the moon reflects in a pool of water. empty by it's nature.

"tong ba nyi" in tibetan

in order to get the right intuition it is neseesary to reflect analyze and study these topics, on rangton, shengton (empy of self and empty of other, with an open unconditioned mind

karma
26 August 2008 at 13:01

btw I'm from belgium, and apologize for any written mistakes, please try to see the good qualities in a person, and cover the lesser qualities with the blanket of love. karma

Lubov
26 August 2008 at 13:55

Dear Karma,

In relation to your comment - "It is usually misunderstood, when HH dalai lama asks not do this kind of a practise."

I don't agree that there is any misunderstanding on the Dalai Lamas request for people to stop engaging in the beautiful Dorje Shugden prayer.

Can you not see that his words would encourage Abbots, police and the Tibetan Prime Minister to enforce a ban? It is not as simple as the Dalai Lama announcing he no longer practices this prayer. He has instructed a ban on this prayer.

As a Westerner he threatens my practise by defaming any Buddhist who engages in this prayer, however, in the Tibetan exiled community monks are expelled from their monasteries, denied a National ID card, denied food and visas.

Sure someone can give their opinion, however, when it is a political leader and his/her actions incite segregation, discrimination, hatred and anger it’s irresponsible and I believe that in the long run he/she will be accountable.

Love

Lubov

dee cani
26 August 2008 at 14:21

Dear all,

The Dalai Lama

has asked only

that people who wish to be his students

stop this practice,

not that everyone stop.

If you do not wish to be his student,

there is no restriction.

If you do wish to be his sutdent, why would you not follow his advice, born of scholarly research?

t. lhamo

wisdombuddha
26 August 2008 at 14:51

dear t lhamo,

If you look at this video it is very clear the Dalai Lama is trying to enforce this ban everywhere he has influence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

More information on this can be found at:

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org

Lucy James
26 August 2008 at 15:25

Why not just ask another Deity or Buddha to protect us?! I have been relying upon this Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden for 27 years and have felt every day his beneficial influence in my life. I'll try and give some context here to help the general reader.

According to Mahayana Buddhism there are countless Buddhas, or enlightened beings, because everyone (Buddhist or not) always has the potential to perfect their love, compassion and wisdom. The Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden is one Buddha among many. Some people trying to figure it out have asked me, "Why the fuss about this particular Buddha? Why not just give into the Dalai Lama's wishes to stop the worship of this Buddha? Isn't all Buddhism the same?" This is equivalent to suggesting to a Franciscan that he stop making prayers to St. Francis. What may seem an obscure practice to others, including other Christians, is an essential part of others' faith.

But to understand the context, we can step back a moment to point out that Dorje Shugden practitioners are all Buddhists who rely on Buddha, Dharma (inner realizations of his teachings), and Sangha (the spiritual community). As Buddhists, we are dedicated to improving our inner qualities such as love, compassion and wisdom to find greater peace of mind and capacity to help others, culminating in the highest spiritual goal of enlightenment for the sake of all living beings. Along with that we are striving to overcome the so-called delusions in our mind, such as anger, greed, pride and ignorance, that cause our own and others' suffering. Lofty goals indeed! And that is where Dorje Shugden comes in. We need help if we are going to do this.

According to the Mahayana Buddhism of Tibet and elsewhere, Buddhas can appear in any form they choose -- they have mastered reality, the illusory nature of all phenomena, so they can do as they please! Some enlightened beings appear as teachers (in any tradition), some appear as Dharma Protectors, some appear as ordinary beings. Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector manifestation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. He protects the Dharma of love, compassion and especially wisdom in our minds. His relatively wrathful aspect symbolizes his power to help us defeat the inner enemies of the delusions.

Lucy James
26 August 2008 at 15:35

This tradition of prayer and worship is not a new thing. It is 400 years old.

For 400 years Dorje Shugden practitioners have made peaceful prayers to this Buddha. For example:

“Now is the time to protect the pitiful and protectorless;

Now is the time to protect Dharma practitioners as your children.”

This is an unbroken tradition of prayer that has been passed down to us through generations of highly accomplished Buddhist masters up to the present day. The Dalai Lama himself was a recipient of this tradition through his own masters, including the beloved Trijang Rinpoche, who taught him most of the Dharma he knows. Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and so his compassion protects all living beings, but his main job is to protect the realizations (inner spiritual experiences) of those who are sincerely trying to follow the tradition of Buddha Shakyamuni (500BC) as transmitted via the great Indian Buddhist master Atisha (982-1054AD) and the great Tibetan scholar and saint Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419AD). This is called the Ganden, or Gelug, or Kadampa tradition.

Just as there are many paths up the mountain, so there have always been many Buddhist traditions, all dating back to Buddha Shakyamuni (500BC). Dorje Shugden practitioners are not claiming to have the best tradition, just the one that works best for us. The Dalai Lama has broken with his masters and this tradition and now insists that everyone follow him along his own unchartered path.

Lucy James
26 August 2008 at 15:47

Two words about the Yellow Book and why it was denounced: "superstitious claptrap".

Dorje Shugden is not a demon but a Buddha, a fully enlightened being. But I'm sure Meindert Gotter will get to that bit in a later blog.

dspak
26 August 2008 at 16:09

The controversy between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden began at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama (1617 - 1682). He ruled at a time when Tibetan society was fractured, and he sought to consolidate power into the institution of the Dalai Lamas (backed by Mongol military power). Then, like now, the 5th Dalai Lama felt that there needed to be absolute unity of the Tibetan people for the sake of political unity. Towards this end, he attempted to spiritually unite the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism and he encouraged Tibetan practitioners to mix the teachings from different traditions. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen (1619-1656), who was an extremely popular and renowned Lama at the time and who was a rival candidate for being named the Dalai Lama, did not agree with mixing Dharma and politics and he encouraged his students to follow the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa purely without mixing. This was perceived by the 5th Dalai Lama as an obstacle to him being able to consolidate his power. For this reason he was killed by forces loyal to the 5th Dalai Lama.

Historical records indicate this was a great shock to Tibetan society, like the main opposition leader of a country being assassinated. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s next reincarnation was as Dorje Shugden. Subsequent to this, the government of the 5th Dalai Lama blamed every misfortune that befell Tibetan society on Dorje Shugden, thus the myth that he was an ‘evil spirit’ was born (even though the Dalai Lama must have known that the previous incarnations of Dragpa Gyaltsen were of a line of universally recognized enlightened beings).

The 5th Dalai Lama, thinking that Dorje Shugden was a spirit seeking revenge for his murder, then tried to dispel and destroy Dorje Shugden through a variety of different wrathful rituals. Ultimately, his efforts failed. The 5th Dalai Lama's then changed his mind about the nature of Dorje Shugden and wrote a prayer to him as an enlightened Protector. He also offered a temple in Lhasa to him called Trode Khangsar that is still there today, and created a statue with his own hands and placed it at a monastery called Phelgyeling (in Nepal, which is now in the process of being destroyed by the Dalai Lama's followers).

Dorje Shugden has been a Dharma Protector of Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition for around 350 years, but it became a ‘mainstream’ practice during the time of Je Phabongkhapa (1878-1941) and Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), the two most prominent Gelug Lamas of the 20th century. Directly or indirectly, virtually all Gelugpas descend from these two great masters. Trijang Rinpoche was the Spiritual Guide of the 14th Dalai Lama; Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa, the founders of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT); Geshe Rabten, founder of Rabten Choeling monastary in Switzerland; Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition, and many other prominent lamas who have come to the West. Trijang Rinpoche passed the practice of Dorje Shugden to these great lamas and he taught the practice extensively until the day he died. The 14th Dalai Lama himself had taken a lifetime commitment to practice Dorje Shugden from his Spiritual Guide.

dee cani
26 August 2008 at 18:01

Again,

if you want to do this practice, you can do it.

If you want to follow the teachings of the Dalai Lama,

you would not.

Everyone can choose. No one's choice has been taken away.

But one cannot simultaneously follow contradictory approaches. So everyone can follow the path they choose to.

t lhamo

Dougal
26 August 2008 at 18:34

t. lhamo -

that's, at the very least, disingenuous.

sure, in Tibetan society you have "choice" not to follow the Dalai Lama's "advice", but if you do so - if you do not sign the compulsory oath that every member of the exiled Tibetan community worldwide is being asked to sign - then you do not get an ID card, if you're a monk or nun you'll be expelled from your monastery, you cannot get a visa to travel, you will not be served in most Tibetan shops or restaurants, your children will not be admitted to school, you may be denied medical treatment. all of these things are happening right now.

the social cost of making the "choice" not to follow the Dalai Lama's ban is horrendous. what's more, the Dalai Lama knows this.

some "choice"!

shieu hoong
26 August 2008 at 19:01

"No one's choice has been taken away."

let's ask the old lady who had to walk out miles to the nearest indian shop for food because the tibetan shops in the tibetan refugee camps were ordered not to sell to her and who had to finally move to ooty for her safety as the people in her camp kept knocking on her door in the middle of he night. let's ask the young widow who lives alone with her 4 young kids in mundgod if her neighbours have started to talk to her again or if folks still throw bricks through her windows or if her kids have been able to safely return to the tibetan school or if they even go to any school at all as she has no money to send them to the indian schools. yup, let's just ask these people what their choices are.

gimilisaxe
26 August 2008 at 19:34

Shugden was banned because the practice is used to harm others. My own teacher, an American, was attacked without provocation by American practitioners of Shugden. He was sick for several days until he realized where it was coming from. It should be a big clue as to the nature of Shugden that it is the only "Tibetan Buddhist" practice recognized as official and encouraged by Chinese authorities. How can a practice used to harm others be Buddhist?

Robert Thomas
26 August 2008 at 20:20

Dear Gimilsaxe, what superstitious nonsense! Have you ever read The Crucibal by Arthur Miller? These kind of ideas can be very harmful if we give them credence.

bengrimwood
26 August 2008 at 20:39

Will NKT members please announce themselves as such and stop hiding behind other organizations - I was a member until these lambs donned the WSS clothing of a wolf earlier this year. The Yellow Book was indeed casually dismissed as superstitious claptrap by the known pariah Gehse Kelsang Gyatso. Yet on www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism can be found the following text:

"The much talked about “yellow book” contains stories of what happened to people who “displeased” Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkapas tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told. (As a consequence of the scandal following the printing of the yellow book, Tzeme Rinpoche has ceased to teach. A famous disciple of Tzeme Rinpoche is Dr. Thupten Jinpa, HH the Dalai Lama’s main translator.)"

Why would he cease to teach if this was only superstition? They also mention about how he was the reincarnation of the murdered Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen - murdered with 'bodhichitta motivation' (????). Not a promising start to his lifespan.

So maybe Shugden proponents should get their stories straight about who they believe Shugden to be. Je Tsongkhapa had some perfectly respectful protector dieties before Shugden came along.

The Dalai Lama almost refused his long life offerings on the basis of the Yellow Book - and I think you will find he is the most accomplished Buddhist alive, not just because of his Buddhist status but because he has been forced to be a samsaric politician and diplomat. He has not sat in study rooms taking shots at other traditions. Even then, he performed 20 years of research before making the move to restrict Shugen. What amazes me is some people completely fail to put this into context. HHDL is revered worldwide for his compassion and patience with regard the Tibet situation and for his teachings - his talks are sold out worldwide and in a world where political leaders have shown such ignorance there are a lot of people who wish their leaders could demonstrate his nature a bit more. The Chinese government LOVE Shugden and stand hand in hand with people such as the WSS when HHDL is protested against. The WSS have no interest in Tibet, their websites contain no dharma, only vitriol and either incomplete or grossly exaggerated truths that prove that Shugden is against the very institution of the Dalai Lama. Not surprising when it's orchestrator, GKG, is the nephew of the Dorje Shugden Oracle. Shugden represents division, sectarian intolerance and death. Pro-Tibetan NGOs view the WWS and it's protestors as a gross obstruction to the goal of Tibetan autonomy and the hope of Tibetans ever returning to the land of the snows. They have been counter protested against by pro-Tibetan NGOs. Give your money to NKT and help destroy Tibet! Watch this space NKT teachers.

Jason
26 August 2008 at 21:28

Hi I am an NKT member and have also attended some of the demonstrations organised by the Western Shugden Society. At the US demos in July there were many brave Tibetan demonstrators who were prepared to take a very risky, public stand against their oppression by the Dalai Lama. It was so moving to meet them and to hear their stories and made me all the more determined to help bring about a resolution.

I have engaged in this practice for fifteen years and have always found it to be beneficial for my own inner peace and for helping others around me. I pray that this divisive and unnecessary ban will be over soon.

Dougal
26 August 2008 at 21:29

Ben -

um, what?

everybody else -

no Buddhist has ever been harmed by evil spirits, ok? for these Buddhists who follow the Shugden practice - and they're numerous and mainstream Gelugpas, not some wacky sect - Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. they're praying to him in order to increase their love, compassion and wisdom, not to kill their next door neighbours.

however - many, many people HAVE been harmed by the Dalai Lama's politically-motivated religious ban. this is not the stuff of fasiry-tales - it's happening right now.

so long as nobody's harming anyone else (and i think we can all at least try to be rational and discount Yellow Books and Chinese ghosts, no?), shouldn't everyone have the right to practise whatever relgious belief they see fit? who's the Dalai Lama to go around issuing such disastrous, unconstitutional, and downright totalitarian bans? "most accomplished Buddhist alive"? you must be joking.

Dougal
26 August 2008 at 21:33

um - that'll be "fairy-tales".

i don't believe in fasiries.

Snowball
26 August 2008 at 21:41

Dorje Shugden was not denounced because of the Yellow book. The Yellow book was used to denounce Dorje Shugden. A book of superstitious tales held up and used by the Dalai Lama as a convenient means to begin his campaign to stamp out a practice adored by many thousands of peaceful people. I guess some Lamas are more equal than others.

bengrimwood
26 August 2008 at 23:00

Dougal - all you have done is reiterate what has already been stated, not address my individual points. Tell me - what do you make of the quotes from www.dorjeshugden.com? Why are Tibetans attending the Dalai Lama's speeches waving money at WSS folk? Why is that? Why are pro-Tibetan NGOs against the WSS? Why does the NKT not announce it's divisive relationship with HHDL to its lay members so that they have the freedom to choose? Seems rather duplicitous to me. With GKG, it is 'my way or the high way' - his sectarianism is very obvious. He even puts line drawings of himself into his books which is distinctly at odds with his professed 'humility'. What have you to say about WSS doing the same work as the Chinese government by Shugden propitiation - who still hold the worlds youngest political prisoner - the Panchen Lama? As I say, when I mention his accomplishments, I am referring to his Ghandi like approach to the freedom of Tibet. What has GKG ever done for Tibet his birthplace - please, tell me? Please answer these questions and identify yourself if you are NKT. People can worship whoever they like, I have no problem withg that. Shugden is not for me for sure. But would the Pope be accused of religious suppression if he banned Satanists from the Catholic church - of course not - the example is extreme, but it follows the same tangent. The Dalai Lama could not have denounced Shugden if 80% of Tibetans were dedicated practitioners of his. Do you think he did it for fun? For a laugh? What do you think he stood to gain - do you genuinely think he is a malicious man??? Would this not have become manifest before the Shugden denouncement. He did it for Tibet - because an unprecedented show of unity between the four schools is the only way to hope to regain their homeland. Shugdens sectarianism threatens that, if some Gelugpas have been offended by the denouncement of Shugden, countless more from the other schools would have been offended by his continued propitation as well as within the Gelug.

Lubov
26 August 2008 at 23:52

deecani,

The Dalai Lama is enforcing a ban on Dorje Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exiled community - these people are not his students. They do not want to be his student or attend his teachings.

lubov

Tenzin
26 August 2008 at 23:56

dear Bengimwood, I'm sure a lot of what you bring up will be covered by the blogger in the next few days. But just to answer some of your questions as briefly as possible (and I'm sorry it is such a hard issue to understand, but that's just the way it seems to be. The simplest way to approach it might just be to leave out the philosophizing and just all agree to disagree about that but to agree that human rights abuses are wrong and that everyone should be allowed to practice the religion of their choosing, even if the Dalai Lama doesn't want them to.)

"Tell me - what do you make of the quotes from www.dorjeshugden.com?"

I think you should ask them. I think that group includes Tibetans and Westerners from various Centres in the West and the East. I am sure they don't all agree 100% with each other about everything, and that is fine by me. There are a large variety of Shugden practitioners, we are not all exactly the same.

"Why are Tibetans attending the Dalai Lama's speeches waving money at WSS folk? Why is that?"

Because they mistakenly believe that those who practice Dorje Shugden are on the pay roll of the Chinese and they are being very insulting with their gestures. No evidence, none whatsoever, for this tired accusation. Anyone with a difference of opinion from the DL must simply be a friend of the Chinese. That is the faulty logic at work here.

"Why does the NKT not announce it's divisive relationship with HHDL to its lay members so that they have the freedom to choose? Seems rather duplicitous to me. "

I think members of the NKT cannot avoid knowing that the Dalai Lama has condemned them! It is not exactly a secret. And this has nothing to do with today's blog.

"With GKG, it is 'my way or the high way' - his sectarianism is very obvious. He even puts line drawings of himself into his books which is distinctly at odds with his professed 'humility'. "

This has nothing to do with today's blog either. But still, here we go. Obvious in what way? And on the subject of humility and pictures, have you read Robert Thurman's latest book on the Dalai Lama (endorsed by the Dalai Lama?) And seen that picture of the DL appearing as 1000-armed Avalokiteshvara? The DL said in Unwinking Gaze that Tibetans will die when he dies, that they'll commit suicide from sorrow. Unthinkable for Geshe Kelsang or other Shugden Lamas to talk like that. Students of Geshe Kelsang asked for the line drawings to be included.

"What have you to say about WSS doing the same work as the Chinese government by Shugden propitiation - who still hold the worlds youngest political prisoner - the Panchen Lama?"

Not a lot to say as this is the "Chinese excuse" again -- "don't whatever you do oppose the Dalai Lama on any issue or you'll play into Chinese hands". That is a license for the Dalai Lama to do whatever he wants (a license he has used!) Dorje Shugden practitioners have no more than any other Tibetan to do with the Chinese government nor the Dalai Lama's appointed Panchen Lama. They just want the religious freedom to practice in peace.

"As I say, when I mention his accomplishments, I am referring to his Ghandi like approach to the freedom of Tibet. What has GKG ever done for Tibet his birthplace - please, tell me?"

(Again, this is irrelevant to the argument of whether Dorje Shugden practitioners should be given religious freedom.) Geshe Kelsang went to Tibet and rebuilt his first monastery, Jampa Ling. He has helped bring his Tibetan Guru, Trijang Rinpoche's Gelugpa Buddhist teachings to many thousands of students in the West in accordance with his Guru's wishes. He helps many thousands of Tibetan Dorje Shuden practitioners by standing up for their actual freedom, their freedom of religion. What has the Dalai Lama accomplished for the freedom of Tibet?

"People can worship whoever they like, I have no problem withg that. Shugden is not for me for sure. But would the Pope be accused of religious suppression if he banned Satanists from the Catholic church - of course not - the example is extreme, but it follows the same tangent."

Yes the example is extreme and also illogical. Should the followers of e.g. the Virgin Mary be outlawed by the Christian church by the same token? In any case, Dorje Shugden practitioners are Buddhists (whereas Satanists are not exactly Catholics) and the Dalai Lama is not the pope of Buddhism. There is no such thing.

"The Dalai Lama could not have denounced Shugden if 80% of Tibetans were dedicated practitioners of his. Do you think he did it for fun? For a laugh? What do you think he stood to gain - do you genuinely think he is a malicious man???"

I don't know the answer to why the Dalai Lama is banning the religious practice of hundreds of thousands of people. It isn't much of a laugh for the Dorje Shugden practitioners who are being persecuted for their beliefs as we speak.

"He did it for Tibet - because an unprecedented show of unity between the four schools is the only way to hope to regain their homeland."

There you may be right -- bring all four schools under him and he is then the undisputed theocratic religious and political leader. But this mixing of religion and politics hasn't worked to regain the homeland. And, by the way, Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners love their homeland too.

"Shugdens sectarianism threatens that, if some Gelugpas have been offended by the denouncement of Shugden, countless more from the other schools would have been offended by his continued propitation as well as within the Gelug."

They weren't offended before this ban, they all lived together peacefully. Who asked for the ban? Only the Dalai Lama himself. You implied the reason for that yourself, that he wants to bring all four Tibetan Buddhist schools under him, and Dorje Shugden practitioners want to keep practicing just their traditional Gelugpa tradition so they are getting in his way. The fact is that Dorje Shugden practitioners are not sectarian but respect the right of others to practice their religion. i'm sure this'll be covered in more detail in the next few days.

Thanks for the discussions.

Lubov
26 August 2008 at 23:57

Ben,

You made a comment - "Will NKT members please announce themselves as such and stop hiding behind other organizations".

What other organisations have been mentioned on this blog?

What organisation are you from?

Tara

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 00:24

Hey, Dorje Shugden folks! I am so proud of you.

I started reading this blog with fear in my heart. I so much dreaded that the slander of our dear disinformed attackers would set ablaze anger!

And I can see that you have been just answering with a lot of patience, every point, with reason. Not with insults to retaliate, just good reasons.

Well, this is very brave and I feel elated. I rejoice in your patience.

I would like to participate a little in this debate and will come to it later on.

Thank you all, those who agree and those who disagree. Because you see, beyond the fact that those who disagree so strongly give us the opportunity to practice the precious training of the mind, they give us also the opportunity to explain our issues in more detailed, comprehensive way.

Today is such a precious day for all practitioners!

I already have our precious practice done, I wish the best to those who still have to go and sit in their cushions.

SARVA MANGALAM

gimilisaxe
27 August 2008 at 00:33

Tenzin, you dismiss the connection between the Chinese government and Shugden but this is from dorjeshugden.com...

"China is supporting the practice and spread of Dorje Shugden’s lineage within China and Tibet itself. No one can stop that."

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/panchenshugden.htm

There is quite a tract there aligning shugden with the PRC. You deny it but Dorje Shugden itself is quite proud to proclaim its connection with communist China and its aims. What more does anyone need to know about it?

jampel
27 August 2008 at 00:51

Thank you all for your postings they are very helpful.

I hope we can simply go back to the issue. Shugden Practioners' simply wish to be able to practice in the way we choose.

If the Dali Lama leaves us alone, no more demos. Very simple.

If the DL continues to create obstacles for our practice of Dorje Shugden then, of course, we have to engage in actions to protect the lineage that we hold so dear.

Let us be very clear. We do not wish to stop the practice of anyone, but someone does wish to stop our practice. This is not difficult. We are simply trying to uphold our constitutional right to practice our religion. Very simple. Can anyone really argue with this in modern day society?

You can say DL says this, DL says that, but if you are arguing for the ban on a religious prayer you are actually acting against the constitution of the US and many other countries (maybe your constitution?). For those who are not protected by modern society, we also have an obligation to assist them in any way we can.

Always with love

-Kelsang Jampel

Yes, a follower of my Spiritual Guide Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Why would I hide? I have nothing to hide from.

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 02:21

To gimilisaxe.

Dear friend, probably because Beggar close the Dorjeshugden.com's Forum you are misinterpreting him and unwillingly disinforming others. I used to belong to that Forum, so let me explain what you so hastily judge as a "Chinese connection".

First of all you forgot to quote the Mission Statement of Dorjeshugden.com: it is devoted to the glory of the Dalai Lama.

Beggar, the owner of the website, has this bizarre thesis:

That the Dalai Lama doesn't believe in what he is doing, that he has banned the holy Protector in order to propagate the devotion to Dorje Shugden, as a way to disseminate buddhism among the Chinese, because, according to Beggar, the Dalai Lama knows that the Chinese always do the contrary of what he desires, so, logically the Chinese are going to be interested (religiously) in Dorje Shugden. Since Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, then, these are the skilfull means the Dalai Lama uses to benefit the Chinese.

Gotcha? A little difficult?

Well, I don't remember anybody among my fellow members of that Forum that followed Beggar in his circumvoluted theory. We just humored him, because he was such a great guy, such good person! And he gave us for a whole year the opportunity to meet in great harmony. To people who are persecuted it felt good to be together and be able to communicate.

Unhappily Beggar closed the Forum, because some misled Dalai Lama's followers started sending black magic messages, insults, and in general showing a really mistaken attitude. So this pure heart chose to sacrifice our meeting space, in order not to give others the oportunity to commit more transgressions to the basic vows of morality.

Thank you gimilisaxe for this opportunity to remember such a great person. We were not all the time in agreement with Beggar, but we loved him very much.

We Dorje Shugden people are a relaxed, free-thinking bunch, so obviously we are not clones one from another, so obviously we disagree with great happiness about many things, except the chore of our faith.

Beggar, if you ever read this, we miss you friend.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 03:44

I am not a Shugden practitioner myself, but I have encountered many through the years and I have always been struck by the fact that they usually agree with me that there can be no practice of the Dharma without the practice of virtue --- this coming from a tradition which has always considered the Vajrayana to be superior to the Paramitayana.

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 04:00

Dharmakara,

Thank you for your kind words.

I think we could say that the Vajrayana is faster than the Paramitayana, but without the practices of the Paramitayana, of which of course the Perfection of Morality is one of the major points, there is no way to really enter the Vajrayana.

This is the tradition, after all, of Lord Atisha and Lord Je Tsongkapa, who never separated Sutra from Tantra, on the contrary.

And may be you know that our most holy Dorje Shugden has among his names --starting with the times when he was one of Je Tsongkapa's close disciples and following today with the great king of the five families-- Dulzin, Dulwa Zinpa, or Vinaya Holder.

Let's see what this blog is going to give us tomorrow.

Best to all.

bengrimwood
27 August 2008 at 04:03

Tara - I left the NKT after two years in Spring. I was absolutely horrified to stumble across the website of the WSS with so many prominent NKT members in it, I was reading text like this about HHDL:

“According to some sources, you were born in a Muslim family. When you were a child who did not know anything, some ignorant Tibetans acting as repre¬sentatives of the Tibetan Government chose that boy as the reincarnation of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. Since that time, that boy wore saffron robes, and the local people jokingly nicknamed you as ´The Saffron Robed Muslim´. In this way, you received the position of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. Because of this, many people now keep your photograph on their shrines and worship you”

Even though they were also saying they were not attacking the institution of the Dalai Lama. So no wonder i begun to question my allegiances. I had been making offerings to Shugden with no knowledge that he had been denounced by HHDL - I believe I and others were deliberately kept in the dark for fear of losing members and I believe I had the right to know and choose for myself. NKT members are difficult to trust not because they are by nature devious but because the exclusivity that GKG commands leads to close mindedness and lack of exposure to other aspects of Tibetan Buddhism outside of the NKT. It leaves them vulnerable of charges being a personality cult, even my NKT teacher told me he was concerned with how the protests were being carried out and despite he and others feeling uncomfortable - he went along anyway, as you do for protests you aren't really sure about. He said that some senior members of the Nkt were 'tripping over themselves' to please GKG despite the fact that it is the dharma that pacifies the mind and the medium is really irrelevant. These are why NKT people are so close minded and can see no one elses point of view than that of GKG - I have experienced it directly as have hundreds of others who have left the NKT. In GKGs world, he is right and everyone else has the wrong view and the slavish devotion of his followers is not becoming of of an open and integral organisation. I can already see Tenzin churning out all the GKG propaganda, he is clearly a member or he would not know that it was GKGs students who requested that line drawings of him be added to his books. And if the divisive relationship between GKG and HHDL is so well known to all NKT members then why are there no links on any NKT websites to the pro-Sugden folks? The answer is fear that they will be rejected. Goodness knows how NKT/WSS have leveraged such funds, it scares me to think where the publics money is being spent on when they buy a GKG book. HHDL has not said a single bad word in public about GKG even though with the media platform he has he could discredit the NKT permanently. He doesn't have too anyway, GKG is doing that himself. The incidence of the hits in Google for the search ''NKT cult" are rapidly increasing and theolgians and scholars such as David Kay are already starting to reveal the truth about GKG in their published works. NKT members have no frame of reference for critiquing other areas of Tibetan Buddhism, this is the way GKG wants to keep it. As for HHDL making a power grab for the four schools for sheer greed is just insane - he has been working tirelessly for Tibet and has even said he would be a Chinese citizen if only Tibetans were allowed some form of autonomy within their traditional geographic boundaries.

So, here I am, my first experience with a Buddhist group has left me profoundly disappointed. I am now an NKT survivor, who are now reinvented and gaining membership rapidly.

Another thing GKG does not realise is that the profile HHDL has made fertile ground for attracting members to the NKT. He shamelessly bites one of the hands that has fed him. Make no mistake, the WSS have taken the issue far beyond Shugden, the WSS has gotten just plain nasty. They take pride in the fact that they have provoked audiences of HHDL, such provocations are not become of Buddhists. Again I ask - what motivation could he possibly have? Even Tenzin, the man with all the GKG answers cannot answer that one. GKG has taken no interest in anything Tibetan, his shops are full of Made in China junk - the travel mug I bought at Glen Spey fell apart the first time I washed it. He doesn't do himself any favours does he?

It's a terrible pity because most NKT teachers are very genuine people who just want to get on with teaching their students, they don't want to be dragged into this but GKG has not made that possible. I received fantastic dharma teachings from my center, I was heartbroken to leave, but I could not put my head in the sand.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 04:04

Whenever an examination or critique of the darker aspects of Tibetan history is offered, the labels of "communist propaganda" or "red sympathizer" gets tossed at its author, whether it's appropriate to do so or not, irregardless of the fact that there are accounts of Tibet that were written prior to the rise of communism in China, accounts which also offer a rare glimpse into these darker aspects.

A perfect example of the latter is "Beasts, Men and Gods" by Ferdinand Ossendowski, if one can look beyond the fact that it comes across like a romantic travelogue of years gone by.

I'm sure that everyone has heard the following phrase at one time or another --- "the collective karma of society" --- but what is "collective karma" and is it a Buddhist teaching?

The Dalai Lama has stated the following:

"The universe that we inhabit and our shared perception of it are the results of a common karma. Likewise, the places that we will experience in future rebirths will be the outcome of the karma that we share with the other beings living there. The actions of each of us, human or nonhuman, have contributed to the world in which we live. We all have a common responsibility for our world and are connected with everything in it." [1]

This world in which we live is the effect of the group or "collective karma" created by the beings who inhabit it, just as Samsara is its "collective dream", so what is the collective karma of Tibet and it's theocracy prior to Chinese occupation?

The following excerpts are from "Friendly Fuedalism - the Tibet Myth" by Michael Parenti is a good place to start:

Many Buddhists maintain that, before the Chinese crackdown in 1959, old Tibet was a spiritually oriented kingdom free from the egotistical lifestyles, empty materialism, and corrupting vices that beset modern industrialized society. Western news media, travel books, novels, and Hollywood films have portrayed the Tibetan theocracy as a veritable Shangri-La. The Dalai Lama himself stated that "the pervasive influence of Buddhism" in Tibet, "amid the wide open spaces of an unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment." [2]

A reading of Tibet's history suggests a somewhat different picture. "Religious conflict was commonplace in old Tibet," writes one western Buddhist practitioner. "History belies the Shangri-La image of Tibetan lamas and their followers living together in mutual tolerance and nonviolent goodwill. Indeed, the situation was quite different. Old Tibet was much more like Europe during the religious wars of the Counterreformation." [3] In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet.

His two previous lama "incarnations" were then retroactively recognized as his predecessors, thereby transforming the 1st Dalai Lama into the 3rd Dalai Lama. This 1st (or 3rd) Dalai Lama seized monasteries that did not belong to his sect, and is believed to have destroyed Buddhist writings that conflicted with his claim to divinity. The Dalai Lama who succeeded him pursued a sybaritic life, enjoying many mistresses, partying with friends, and acting in other ways deemed unfitting for an incarnate deity. For these transgressions he was murdered by his priests. Within 170 years, despite their recognized divine status, five Dalai Lamas were killed by their high priests or other courtiers. [4]

For hundreds of years competing Tibetan Buddhist sects engaged in bitterly violent clashes and summary executions. In 1660, the 5th Dalai Lama was faced with a rebellion in Tsang province, the stronghold of the rival Kagyu sect with its high lama known as the Karmapa. The 5th Dalai Lama called for harsh retribution against the rebels, directing the Mongol army to obliterate the male and female lines, and the offspring too "like eggs smashed against rocks... In short, annihilate any traces of them, even their names." [5]

Of course, practitioners and supporters of Tibetan Buddhism take exception to Michael Parenti, where they have tossed the aforementioned labels of "communist propaganda" and "red sympathizer" in his direction, but it doesn't change the fact that these events actually occurred.

It's through their adoption of a "spirit of denial", as well as their motivation behind political agendas, that this "collective karma" continues rolling downhill like a snowball, quickly becoming an unstoppable avalanche of passion and unfulfilled cravings... where wisdom would dictate that when a person is standing in a large enough hole, they should stop digging.

[1] Words of His Holiness XIV Dalai Lama, Chenrezig Project (Lake County, Florida)

[2] Dalai Lama quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998), 205.

[3] Erik D. Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling: Uncovering Corruption at the Heart of Tibetan Buddhism Today (Alaya Press 2005), 41.

[4] Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet (Monthly Review Press, 1964), 119, 123; and Melvyn C. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama (University of California Press, 1995), 6-16.

[5] Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 50.

Respectfully Submitted by Thomas Canada

Title & Author

Tibetan Theocracy: Collective Karma and the Sprit of Denial

by the Ven. J.M. Dharmakara Boda, Mahabodhi Maitri Mandal in America

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 04:12

Friendoftruth: No thanks are never necessary when one speaks the truth... I have always been a firm believer that one teaches not only by word, but by example.

bengrimwood
27 August 2008 at 04:22

Tenzin - I thought the official GKG figure of Tibetans affected was 4 million. That was what young Kelsang Pema was saying wasn't it? Has it now been downgraded to merely hundreds of thousands in the NKT internal rules? GKGs exploitation of such a young devotee to front the WSS was nothing but despicable. They take a 2 week mud collecting trip to Dharamasala after decades solely in the West and proclaim themselves authorities on happenings in Dharamasala. Shame, shame.

Again, I have no problem with Shugden, people should worship him/take refuge in him howerver they see fit. I have merely adopted HHDLs view on it because I believe him to be a lot more genuine than GKG after having witnessed the latters duplicity directly.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 04:30

bengrimwood: I was wondering about the same thing. Maybe 4 million was just a misquote or a rough estimate of the number of people who have have been influenced by the teachings, though not neccessarily Shugden practitioners per se.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 04:43

Four million is an ultra conservative concensus of the Uralic Utalic_Urasian census of Shri Dorje Shugden Practioners, Globally.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 04:51

Don't take it the wrong way, but who actually undertook this census? What was its control criteria? I'm just curious because the number seems high.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 05:12

Speaking of Duplicity as your first hand experience. Tell me why the Dalia Lama's brother.Thubten Norbu and family stole some two million of the 1999 Kalachakra Proceeds. Now the Norbu family has been banned from the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center due to their unvirteous acts of greed and lying . All of which is a matter of record within the Monroe County Court Record/Bloomington, Indiana USA

Now that is just the way the whole Dalia Lama's family skims the cream off the top as they and their kind have stolen for centuries with glee.

There is no escuse for this Lama to be allowed to continue to flaunt the law that presides across the entire planet and that is Freedom to believe and practice one's own beliefs without fear of molestation,threat or otherwise imtimidation from others.

This Lama has repeatedly for all of his recognizable reincarnations carried conflicting attitudes towards the Shugden Practioners, from building Temples to Shri Dorje Shugden and creating images by his own hands of Dorje Shugden.To flaying Dorje Shugden Monks alive over several days, and grinding their monastery to literal dust in 1933+_-[Toyo Bunko/The Great 5th Dl].

Now at a time when all of ur collective resources should be being applied to real problems and issues in the world and ways to make people more comfortable instead of harassing and falsely accusing innocent people living on the fringe of economic survivabilty of ridiculous accusations.

This lama never had anything even remotely resembling a social welfare system or education system for the masses in any of his administarions over the last 350-400 years.

Until now! One would think with all the AID to the exiled Tibetans that the Dalia Lama had been sustaining his people in the first place. In actuality as it is well documented, Shangria has a much reality as the Hollywood Moguls Estate the movie Lost Horizons had to any kind of tangible reality. in Tibet consisting up until 1959+-,(-95% of it's population was no better than a slave and no worse than a erf.

He is called to the High Courts of New Delhi this next month to answer charges of his direct violation of others Right to their own beliefs as in the Indian, Tibetan Constitutions have been directly broken by this Dalia lama

He has no virtue today and who knows? Maybe tomorrow he will try to regain his integrity by virteous acts rather than being a devisive liar.

He has no right to do what he is attempting to accomplish at this very moment, None whatsoever. We need unity not tolerate deviseness from this lama..

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 05:29

Professor Thubten Norbu.Indiana University/Uralic Utalic Department of Eurasian Studies / Professor Colin Turbull/ Antropologist George Washington University/Washinton DC/ co authored /"Tibet"

Source /

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 05:36

It might be a good idea to publish a link to the census study. I've noticed quite a few comments on different sites that were critical of the 4 million estimate.

TL
27 August 2008 at 06:18

Hi Ben,

I don't mean to be disrespectful to Kelsang Pema, but she ain't that young.

I have watched various media interviews with her and also note that she's incredibly articulate, smart and compassionate. Absolutely everything she has advised has been backed up with hard fact. Her contacts are vast and I understand that the purpose of her trips to India were to confirm what had already been discovered. That's why most of the journalists who talk with her report favourably because they discover that her words match reality and respect her honesty and transparency.

It will take take one smart investigative journalist to uncover this incredible story. I studied and worked as a journalist for many years and what the Dalai Lama is doing is the story of the decade and will be a sorry part of history for a very long time.

On the other hand, there has been some benefit that has come from the negative actions of the Dalai Lama - it has increased my and others faith in Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden a billion times over.

All Love and Peace

TL

KA
27 August 2008 at 07:10

It's true, what TL says above, that if an investigative journalist were to get their hands on this story and look into what's actually going on behind the mystique of the Dalai Lama it would be "the story of the decade."

A French TV station did some investigative work: http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...

but they got a number of their facts wrong, for example repeating the Dalai Lama's false claim that Shugden practitioners are supported by the Chinese. Nevertheless, the video shows directly the signs on the front of shops, restaurants, and hospitals that deny entry to people who practice this Buddhist tradition. The evidence is undeniable ... the Dalai Lama has turned the Tibetan Refugee communities into an apartheid state ... complete with brick-and-mortar walls dividing communities into those who follow this practice and those who oppress them. See http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/reports/dorje-shugden-b... for some more pictures.

Outrageous!

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 07:29

The Shugden controvery is only the latest in a long line of controversies that have plagued the Dalai Lama. My all-time favorite one was when he declared that homosexuality was sexual misconduct.

There were many of us who objected to his statement, Mahayana and Theravada alike, not because we were on one side or the other of the "pink minefield", as it has come to be known, but because he was foolish enough to state that the Buddha himself had declared homosexuality to be misconduct, when in fact he was putting words into the mouth of the Buddha that were never spoken.

He uttered this statement about homosexuality the first time in San Francisco, where a gay and lesbian Buddhist conference was being held at the time, and the reporters who heard this refused to let the matter drop.

The Dalai Lama was then asked, "Where did the Buddha say this?", and he replied "I don't know," which was quickly followed by a second question, "When did the Buddha say this?", and again he replied "I don't know."

It's hard to find humor in his attempt to put words in the mouth of the Buddha, long enough to do so as a means to justify cultural bias, but there is a comical pseudo-Confucian analect which comes to mind: "It is better to shut one's mouth and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt."

Should we have confidence in the veracity of the Dalai Lama's statements about Dorje Shugden and his reasons behind the ban?

I'm not overly impressed with his apologetics, especially since we are also talking about the same man who feined ignorance when confronted with the centuries of gender bias and poor treatment of women within Tibetan culture and society.

TL
27 August 2008 at 13:43

Any journos out there willing to expose the Dalai Lama, Winner of the Noble Peace Prize who, as KA said, has turned the Tibetan Refugee committee into an apartheid state?

IT is outrageous and would be a sensational yarn that would pervade all other media worldwide.

It's only a matter of time.

TL

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 13:45

Ben -

you're a dupe, son, i'm sorry to say. sounds like you've got an issue with NKT anyway, strongly influencing your comments, and that isn't the topic under discussion here.

so you're wondering how anyone can possibly question the Dalai Lama, seeing as he's so holy and all? can you see that this is pretty ironic, considering all that stuff you were saying about GKG? btw - you didn't answer Tenzin's question: what, precisely, has the Dalai Lama accomplished for Tibet in all these years?

if you want more, non-Shugden-issue, evidence of this man's duplicity and arrogance, google "Karmapa controversy". if you know any relatively senior Tibetan monks who aren't fanatical DL apologists, ask them about his daughter, and where her mum, his pretty young "oracle" has got to. research his brother's arms dealing in Taiwan. try to find out about who poisoned Dagom Rinpoche. ask around about the Society for the Elimination of the Internal and External Enemies of Tibet.

Holy man? he's a politician, and one of the very worst of that ilk. he's duped you, and millions of others like you.

time to wake up.

TL
27 August 2008 at 14:20

WOW, thanks KA for referring me to that report on France 24 TV.

How sad is that. Apartheid in Buddhist Land. Cracks at the Heart of the Tibetan Community.

You're right, there was some misreporting but it's a step in the right direction - particularly the reporters comment that it's taboo to criticise the Dalai Lama and if you do you're considered a Chinese spy.

TL

bengrimwood
27 August 2008 at 15:52

We all have a strong influence here or we wouldn't be on this blog and I have no issue with the NKT, only it's leader inflicting his beliefs on unsuspecting Westerners and not giving them the freedom to choose. You cannot deny my personal experiences. What has the Dalai Lama done for Tibet? He was worked tirelessly to have his people return there, finally his envoys are speaking with the Chinese. Why don't you consult one of the hundreds of pro-Tibetan NGOs who he has been working with? In the meantime, GKG has just been aggressively proselytising his particular practice in the West. I am open minded to accept that HHDL has his faults as much as GKG. So in that case let me use a popular addage, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - that applies to both sides. Yes - The Dalai Lama is an evil man, everything he says is lies and everything GKG says is as blissful nectar. HHDL lives a lavish hedonistic lifestyle due to all the money he steals from his people - he cares not for Tibet but is a power hungry madman who wears womens underwear at weekends. Amnesty International and all the pro-Tibetan NGOs are deeply mistaken. His family are all evil too and the Nobel Peace Prize Committee are all obviously ignorant idiots. There was no connection at all between the Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society and the murders of Lobsang Gyatso and his entourage despite the Dharamasala chief of police making the connection (he has obviously been bought by the Dalai Lama). Black is white and high is low. The WSS media machine are all regular readers of the New Satesmen? Or are they instructed to be alerted to Shugden news articles to spread their propaganda as far and wide as possible. As far as the Yellow Book being used to denounce Shugden, if this was the case, why was there a 20 year difference between HHDL coming across this work/suspending his Shugden practice and him denouncing finally Shugden in 1996? Taking 20 years to make a decision that would have the repercussions that they have had are not the actions of a dictator, but someone who seriously considers his decisions before he makes them. If he was so power hungry, why did he not denounce Shugden and make his vicious attempts to consolidate power earlier rather than wait until his 70s?!! Why has he not destroyed GKGs reputation once and for all publically, which he has the media platform to do? He has been on Western TV recently and has certainly been provoked enough. Why would such a tyrant show such restraint in crushing his enemies? There is such close mindedness on either side. This issue is so highly polarizing and I don't see anyones minds being changed. I am grateful for what I have seen on this blog, being surrounded by Shugden proponents has left me feeling a bit outnumbered but has been a learning experience! I respect everyones views and thanks for input. Lets see what the Indian courts decide shall we - my personal bet is that it will be the same as what Amnesty International found when their precious time and resources were wasted back in 1996, i.e. nothing. If the opposite occurs, maybe my mind will change and I hope that if the Indian courts do find nothing actionable that the WSS may lighten up a bit. Anyway, I am now turning my mind will turn to wood on this issue in that I will not let it disrupt me any further (apart from one last thing I have to do this week). It's been fun debating but it's too much of a distraction to my life and practice, I have a 6 week old to father and he doesn't need a Dad with an agitated mind. I HONESTLY hope everyone gets what they want and everyone stays happy, I really, honestly do. I am very deeply sorry for those people who have suffered as a result of the Shugden denouncement, I wouldn't deny that this has occurred, but it is also my belief that the denouncement was made for the greater, long term good - I hope Tibetan Buddhism can find its feet again for the good of its people and the hope that one day they may be able to return home and yes - hopefully if that were the case Tibetan culture would be overhauled to meet the modern age with reagrd to social equity and democracy. My opponents in this debate have also been my friends and teachers and I fully respect their views. Finally an apology if anyone has been offended by any of my words. They are just an opinion. With respect, peace and love.

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 17:16

Dear lady from Devon,

(you posted the same questions on the second blog where many people have answered them. I will just repeat some of what I said there and you can go look for the other answers).

"... a very complicated society than a person who has dedicated his 14 lifetimes to having the conciousness to keep coming back for the benefit of all sentient beings."

Hmmm. The problem is not with the Dalai Lama taking rebirth after rebirth. The problem is that he is using his political power to ban a religious practice -- the power build-up is too great and there is no recourse whatsoever for anyone to disagree with him. Surely you have to admit there is something wrong with that? This wonderful YouTube video brings what Dorje Shugden practitioners are facing into sharp relief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjsY3UgFto

"It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western."

But they are not. A minority of Shugden practitioners are Western. Most Shugden practitioners live in India, Mongolia, China, Nepal and of course Tibet itself.

"If you ever have the opportunity to see the Oracle in trance you will see for your own eyes that these spirits are very real,"

I have seen oracles in trance, it is an impressive sight. Maybe this is why the Dalai Lama relies upon the Nechung oracle for his political decisions.

"and not just a little idea to hook an energy onto."

I do not rely upon Dorje Shugden through the medium of an oracle at all. Generally, as a daily practice, he has never been relied upon in that way -- the oracle of Dorje Shugden used to be summoned only to ask big questions like how to help the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet.

To my mind, the time for oracles has passed as they are too open to abuse and corruption (as with the Nechung state oracle's wildly differing and harmful political pronouncements on the subject of the Buddha Dorje Shugden).

I certainly don't need a medium to rely upon Dorje Shugden any more than I need one to rely upon Buddha Shakyamuni. I have been relying upon Dorje Shugden for many years and to me he is infinitely more than "a little idea to hook an energy onto", but thanks anyway for your attempts to educate me on my Protector.

"There are frequent Shugden supporters in Mcleod seeking help because when they try to stop his practise,there are many side effects such as nightmares palpatations and other disturbing illness's."

As someone commented yesterday to someone else, you might want to read the Crucible by Arthur Miller. These supersitious ideas are wrong and dangerous. The only nightmares and palpitations needing help are the ones created by the Dalai Lama's very real ban of Dorje Shugden and the persecution and ostracism it has engendered.

I know you and many others mean well, but it is hard to face up to the fact that the Dalai Lama might actually be wrong. However, the truth of his actions is coming out and there will be fewer and fewer straws to grasp at in terms of justifying his terrible behaviour on this issue. All he needs to do is lift the ban and give religious freedom and we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 17:23

dear Ben, the basic premise you make for all your subsequent opinions is that it is Geshe Kelsang Versus the Dalai Lama.

But this premise is incorrect, which makes most of your subsequent opinions irrelevant to this particular discussion.

This issue is not about "GKG versus the DL" but "All Dorje Shugden practitioners (including the greatest masters of the Gelugpa tradition and many hundreds of thousands of practitioners in India, Tibet, China, Mongolia, Nepal and the West) Versus the Dalai Lama".

shieu hoong
27 August 2008 at 18:43

"It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western. "

interesting. and how did u arrive at that empirical statement? by the folks blogging n posting here? in eastern countries like india, nepal, mongolia, china, tibet, most of the educated/computer literate practitioners are the ordained people - monks n nuns, who live in monasteries n nunneries. which are usually located in isolated areas. and only a handful speak english. and of those numbers, not all have access to the internet. or have blackberrys tucked in their robes.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 19:03

Ben -

respect for your honesty, and i accept that your intentions are good, as you say.

to answer one point: there's no way the DL could have got away with this while many of the great Shugden masters were alive. most of them died in the 80's, however. so why didn't he ban it then? because he didn't need to. it wasn't until he needed a scapegoat to blame subsequent to his handing Tibet to the PRC by unilaterally, without consulting the "democratic" people of Tibet, giving up independence for "middle-way" autonomy at Strasbourg in 1995 that his "oracles" gave him the perfect person to blame, his old enemy Dorje Shugden. kill two birds with one stone, i suppose he must have thought.

so why increase the activity around the ban now, 12 years later? because otherwise his people might notice that he's singularly failed to make any capital whatsoever out of their best chance in a century - the Olympics.

and whatever your "one last thing" is, please, for your sake and everyone else's, let it be a good and harmless karma, or don't do it.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 19:06

that's just one theory. there are plenty of others.

Vajrapani
27 August 2008 at 22:08

Dear Ben,

it is sad to witness that you and the other 'survivors' are all suffering immensely, bathing in your own negativities and unending blaming, while those that enjoy the pure lineage of Trijiang Rinpoche and Je Pabonkhapa, and receiving the blessings of Dorje Shugden, are positive, kind, considerate, calm, peaceful, open-minded, and are really happy.

Perhaps you should really start doing yourself and your family a great favour and begin studying Buddha's teaching, then learn to gain some personal experience through sincere practice, before blaming others for your suffering and (as you yourself admit) very disturbed mind.

Buddha gives beautiful advice on how to understand the nature of mind, how to generate virtuous states of mind, and how to make yourself and others happy. Perhaps you should really try and investigate these jewel-like instructions and learn to put them into practice, - instead of indulging in your delusions that are in actual fact the ONLY source of disturbance to the mind (according to Buddha himself).

Blaming others for your suffering is completely contradictory to Buddha's teachings. The only one to blame is the enemy of our own delusions. This was taught by the Buddha. And by blaming others (Dorje Shugden practicioners) that they shorten his lifespan etc, the DL is contradicting Buddhadharma. Saying that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit is also contradicting Buddhadharma, because no being or object is bad, good, evil, benevolent, or harmful from its own side. What they are depends totally upon what the mind makes of them. Think about this deeply, then you will see for yourself what kind of hogwash this is. Please give yourself a shake and wake up, don't believe that kind of nosense that is so easily refutable.

I so enjoyed the demonstrations in Nantes, this experience really immensely deepened my faith in this beautiful lineage. On the other hand it was quite ourageous, shameful, and shocking to witness the DLs follower's response to our joyful and peaceful demonstration. It was in many ways to say the least very 'un-Buddhist'! From what I saw and heard from the DLs followers there made me even more determined to do everything possible to help uphold this pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa.

I am so grateful that I have the great good fortune to study and practice actual Buddhism through the kindness of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden helps us to become wisw and good examples for this world. Even the Chief of Police at the site said how he loved our good example, and that he had never before experienced such wonderful, well-behaved, and joyful demonstration. He wanted one of our placards as souvenier...

Wishing you peace of mind and no more blaming others, - how wonderful that would be....for the benefit of all!

Vajrapani

gimilisaxe
27 August 2008 at 23:27

Friendoftruth: you did a wonderful job of destroying the credibility of your friend Beggar. I will accept that you have countered the idea that dorjeshugden.com endorses a connection with the PRC. I do wonder what crazy wisdom it is that considers it a compassionate act to leave delusional ravings up on the website. Is that of benefit to Beggar? Is the propagation of confusion to others beneficial?

Perhaps Shugden practitioners can't help it if the PRC uses Shugden to promote division amongst Tibetans. It is certainly true that they do as I have read PRC endorsements in several articles. Here's one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4757125.stm

But it requires participation from Shugden lamas/monks/practitioners for the PRC to make anything of it. It didn't get to the point that a British journalist noticed it and wrote about it with only one-sided propaganda from the PRC.

Be that as it may. One thing no one has explained to me; why would an American Shugden lama, a directer of a center, attack my teacher for no other reason than he was not Shugden? We are not Gelugpas. We consider the DL a nice guy but have no lineage connections to him, no practice commitments from him, no samayas to support him in any way.

As I said before; using practices to attack and harm others isn't Buddhist in any way. You can give a robe a bell a dorje and a mantra to Osama bin Laden but that won't make him a Buddhist. You all can equivocate all you want about what Shugden is, what you have and haven't done, how the DL has tied your hands and taped your mouths so you can't do practice but you can't explain away what I know has been done.

Lyara: As for Arthur Miller and his plays; if I wanted to form a world view based on fictional literature, theater or drama I wouldn't need Vajrayana practice. I would just turn on my TV and get a season ticket to the theater. I absolutely do not believe in any kind of superstitions. But if you don't think tantric practitioners are working with and generating some very serious energies, that can be used beneficially or negatively, then you had better run as fast as you can away from Vajrayana practice and practitioners. You have not been well informed. Everyone breaks samaya I'm afraid. But using the Buddha Dharma to cause harm, apart from an extreme need for self defense, is possibly the blackest karma that one can create. Or so I have been instructed.

May all sentient beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.

May all sentient beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering.

May the most auspicious circumstances for the ultimate enlightenment of all sentient beings arise immediately.

Sarwa da mangalum.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 01:30

Gimli's Axe -

"I absolutely do not believe in any kind of superstitions."

um, sorry, pal - yes, you do. you've stated here that you believe your Teacher was psychically "attacked" by a Buddhist lama invoking an enlightened being's power - because he doesn't practise Shugden!

now, i'm sorry, but that's crazy talk. even if you hold such a fantastic worldview, it still doesn't make sense: Buddhas are compassionate - they don't hurt people. either you or, i hate to say it, your Teacher is badly mistaken.

but i don't think that talking about such things helps the discussion here. the point is, simply, that the Dalai Lama is engaged in a very harmful campaign of religious repression, denying the basic human freedom of belief that many people feel is fundamental to a civilised society. many, many people are suffering as a result of his ban.

that's the bottom line. all this talk of Chinese spies and ghosts and goblins just really doesn't help. i enjoy Tolkein too, but let's try to keep it real, ok?

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 01:56

and another thing - just whose fault is it if the PRC exploits this schism? who created the schism in the first place? not Shugden practitioners; the DL made them his enemies, not the other way around. you can't blame Shugden practitioners if the PRC now wants to capitalise on his folly. believe me, we'd rather *not* have any political body trying to hijack our religious cause.

he started this - and he can finish it, too, if he so chose. we pray that he will, and soon. in the meantime, he's no-one to blame but himself for the problems he's now experiencing.

gimilisaxe
28 August 2008 at 02:21

Dougal, you can believe whatever you want. Smarmy dismissal doesn't do much for your argument. Nor does your sophistry about "Buddhas." Obviously the practitioners who use mind for selfish reasons are not Buddhas are they? You can pretend that tantric siddhis are only used positively. You can pretend that shamanism isn't a part of Tibetan Buddhism or that it has no reality (I don't know what excuse you're using for that) and you can pretend that tantric practice can't be bent towards witchcraft if you want to. But you would be full of it wouldn't you?

It also doesn't do you much credit to put words in my mouth like "chinese spies" (never said that) and "ghosts and goblins" (never said that either). It reveals your level of intellectual honesty pretty clearly.

As does your remark about my handle. Very mature of you. If you can't respond like an adult then don't respond to me...pal.

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 05:31

How is Douglas saying "Buddhas are compassionate - they don't hurt people" sophistry?!

I don't think Douglas was being dismissive, he was just being common sensical. And I don't think he was putting words into your mouth... he was quoting what has been said already in this thread. So I don't think it is correct or fair to insult his intellectual honesty.

Anyway, I appreciate Douglas's attempts to keep this in the realm of common sense. To briefly answer your points, Shamanism is pre-tibetan Buddhism from the ancient bon religion of Tibet. Actual Tantric Buddhism is part of Mahayana Buddhism and therefore cannot be used for witchcraft as it is motivated by the wish to attain enlightenment as quickly as possible to liberate all living beings from suffering.

But can we just agree not to argue. For me, the main point which is that the Dalai Lama has banned a very well loved spiritual tradition and we wish he would lift the ban. That pretty much sums it up.

gimilisaxe
28 August 2008 at 06:17

Tenzin, Dougal;

Dougal didn't quote me because I didn't say those words did I? I also didn't say my teacher was physically attacked nor did I say that the attack was initiated by invoking an "enlightened being." You both seem to have difficulty being honest. To say that tantric practice, which brings realization of the true nature of mind, cannot be used for witchcraft and that Vajrayana Buddhism as practiced today has no elements of shamanism is just a lie. An absurdity really. Tell it to someone who hasn't practiced for ten years.

I should also point out that Dougal slighted my teacher in spite of all the bragging by Shugden practitioners of how respectful of other traditions you are.

Your problem with the Dalai Lama is just that. Your problem. For me, the main point is I have encountered dishonesty and disrespect here for simply stating my experience. I think I've learned all I need to know about Dorje Shugden right here on this thread.

Friendoftruth
28 August 2008 at 06:36

gimilisaxe,

Sorry I only now saw your response to my message.

I just can't find what you said about your Teacher being attacked by a Shugden follower. What happened?

Obviously I am sorry for that, I do not agree on attacks on anybody.

But I don't understand what is the connection with our subject. As you know, there are many many Gelugpas out there. That some misbehave is only human. The subject here is not the private error of one person, but a systematic, years long religious persecution from a person endowed with huge political power.

But again, I'm sorry for any problem your Teacher suffered.

About my friend Beggar, I would not have said anything in his absence had I not publicly opposed him many times in the Forum. I agree with you about the confusion. Yeah, he probably has some type of crazy wisdom, but I still don't agree with it precisely because I don't see the benefit of sowing confusion in people's minds.

Vajrapani
28 August 2008 at 08:17

dear gimilisaxe,

so sorry to observe your immense suffering of anger and blaming. Perhaps you should really start (after so many years) studying and practicing Buddhadharma to help find relief from your unhappy mind.

Vajrayana cannot harm by definition, it can only benefit. The 'harm' that you describe is not from Vajrayana practice, but from deluded actions. If what you say is true, then we must also say that Buddhism can harm. But it cannot harm by definition, - all Dharma teaches is non-harm. Those harmful actions and their consequences that you try to prove here are not from within Buddhism. They are coming from deluded minds that act in contradiction to Buddha's instructions. That is neither Buddhism nor Vajrayana (part of Buddhism).

So, try and be honest and admit that you do not yet quite understand the definition of Buddhism or Buddhist practice. Make your mind peaceful through meditation practice, and then allocate some meaningful time to deeply contemplate Buddhas intention. Then everything will become clear and calm.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 09:07

Gimli's Axe -

ok, i was being flippant, and you took offense: i apologise - i didn't intend to upset you. i was trying to keep the tone light, whilst making a serious point. but i agree with you: my tone was out of line.

i certainly didn't mean to slight your Teacher, or to put words in your mouth (i did make fun of your handle, however - sorry). my point was, and is, that the event you reported - your Teacher being attacked (psychically - not physically) through Buddhist ritual, specifically through prayers to the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, cannot have happened, for reasons others have given above. therefore, either you are misrepresenting what your Teacher told you, or your Teacher is mistaken. by saying this, i'm not belittling or insulting either of you.

the purpose of my comment was to try to keep this debate focussed on the main issue: religious freedom. you can see, i hope, how most ordinary people reading your original comment about this would see it as highly superstitious and, even, somewhat crazy. this isn't the place to discuss such things. this debate revolves around the simple fact of the Dalai Lama's abuse of the religious freedom of the Tibetan people, which is now affecting those in the West also, and everyone, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, can understand this.

so once again, i apologise for any offence my flippancy caused: that was inconsiderate of me.

maia
28 August 2008 at 12:53

The only buddhists i have met who have shouted and screamed, been frightening to others, had to be held back by others cause of their violent feelings, the only ones i have met who have behaved in a way that is not wrathful in the enlightened sense, but fear and anger mulched into aggressive actions, are shugden supporters...

i think that says it all, there were also tibetans there who were appalled at the behaviour of these people, who were all white.

it was my first introduction to shugden supporters, and it was very frightening, I have no idea why there is so much fighting for something that is ment to bring help to all sentient beings, how people who justify aggression in the name of any diety is awful, it is in my mind not so much different to any fundamentalist group.

however i have never heard the Dalai Lama do or say anything that is not for the benefit of all beings, including when the question of the shugden supporters was asked of him in the teachings in nottingham.

he said people can do what they want, that is free will, but he has a moral responsibility....

he must know something more than your average practitioner in my mind, as he has been incarnated 14 times.? In my mind there is more understanding of that world if you have the strength of intention and skill of conciousness to come back over and over again. But to do so with love and peace. Well there is the skill.

I have not seen this skill employed by the shugden supporters i have met, though i am sure that there must be some who are not so angry.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 13:58

mala -

"The only buddhists i have met who have shouted and screamed, been frightening to others, had to be held back by others cause of their violent feelings, the only ones i have met who have behaved in a way that is not wrathful in the enlightened sense, but fear and anger mulched into aggressive actions, are shugden supporters... "

really? when? i've attended most of the WSS demonstrations so far, including the one in Nottingham, and have seen no such behaviour at any time from the Shugden practitioners. "had to be held back by others cause of their violent feelings" - when did you see this, please - precisely?

on the other hand, i assume you weren't in Manhattan, or you'd have seen the effect on his supporters of the Dalai Lama's words "for the benefit of all beings, including when the question of the shugden supporters was asked of him". please - see for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S25fxwmDGCE

lastly, can you prove the Dalai Lama knows "something more than your average practitioner in my mind, as he has been incarnated 14 times"? does that give him the right to act in such a totalitarian, dictatorial way, causing such harm and deep division?

i am sorry. i know you love the Dalai Lama and hold onto him as some kind of Great White Hope - but the truth is, sadly, very, very different.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 14:33

mala -

do, please, read the excellent comments by friendoftruth to Mr Gorter's 3rd blog post, here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/d...

i think he explains,, in the most reasonable and compassionate way, just why we are calling the Dalai Lama's good name into question - with all that that action implies - and also the great pain that this responsibility has cost, and is costing, many of us.

Rabga
28 August 2008 at 14:39

Dougal, the whole world knows the truth about the Dalai lama. It doesn't need either the PRC or people like you to describe. It seems like either you are a young and less informed person or you came to this tibetan and the dougal business quite lately. I was present at the Dalai lama's teaching at drepung where he strongly commended against practicing shugten. Now that one must know the difference between telling people not to practice it and banning it. At that time, he also said it is for the individual to decide. (This shows he didn't ban it) And why insult him when the societies decided to boycott it? But in whole, I feel pity on the fact that you are less informed on this whole situation. Ask the Tibetan Government In Exile the history of Doje Shugten and why the Dalai Lama suggested practicing against it.

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 15:02

Rabga, that about sums it up... ask the TGIE the history of Dorje Shugden!! What do they have to do with the spiritual practice of many thousands of practitioners? They are the government and should not be involved in religious affairs. Imagine if Gordon Brown decided to wipe out a religious tradition and someone told the members of that tradition, "oh, just ask Gordon Brown's government the history of Dorje Shugden" and then just go home and obey. There would be a riot. In the circumstances, the Dorje Shugden protestors are a model of peacefulness, patience and restraint -- in every place they have demonstrated, the police forces have praised them for their good conduct. The same of course cannot be said for the rioting followers of the Dalai Lama in NYC. If you have not seen that footage mentioned by Dougal above, I recommend it. I also feel that Dougal is far more informed about this situation than you might be because he is also, like the rest of us, living through it first-hand.

Rabga
28 August 2008 at 15:56

Tenzin, first of all, it is really stupid of you to say that the government should not be involved in religion affairs of it's people. Imagine what the consequences would be had the government of India not interrupted during Godra incident about four years ago where groups of hindu and Muslims clashed? In fact, it is the duty of the ruling community to get involved in such problems. Remember, this issue is not only confined to religion alone. It is also a political matter. And for your kind information, Gordon Brown is not at all a relevant example. Your "Just go home and obey" comment is a laughing matter. Can you kindly remind us an incident where the Dalai lama told us to "go home and obey"? Lastly, but surely, I must thank you for your childish comment. By the way, how old are you?

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 17:23

Hello Rabga.

I'm probably a lot older than you think!

And the Dorje Shugden protestors did enjoy the protection of the NYPC and Feds at the recent riot against them by the Dalai Lama's followers ... I think there could have been some serious violence without it. So governments of course can interfere to stop clashes.

But Shugden monks in the monasteries were not clashing with other monks. Lay Shugden practitioners were not clashing with their friends and neighbours. Everyone was living together peacefully. My point is that the government has no right to carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional ban of a religious practice. This issue is a religious matter affecting the religious lives of hundreds of thousands of people. The Dalai Lama has chosen to make it part of his politics and that is the problem.

There are some very good explanations about this on the third blog of this series. Perhaps we could finish our discussion on there when you have had a chance to read them. Thank you.

Robert Thomas
29 August 2008 at 14:31

TibetforTibetans is mis-quoting and changing the meaning of the Amnesty text. It is not that "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses", but that "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI's mandate for action".

The meaning of "actionable human rights abuses" is explained as " (the) linked criteria of state accountability and the exercise of state force, neither of which could clearly be identified within the CTA context" because TGIE is not a "state". The Amnesty statement therefore “neither asserts nor denies the validity of the allegations against the CTA (Central Tibetan Administration)” (ref Human Rights in Global Perspective, Routelidge ISBN 0-415-30410-5).

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:02

t4t -

the CBI Wanted List contains no reference to Shugden whatsoever.

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:02

on the CBI website you referenced.

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:36

rabga -

nobody else has posted this in response to your claim, so:

you said: "This shows he didn't ban it"

what's this then? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

having been at Drepung for one address in which the Dalai Lama made one of his less angry and emphatic "recommendations" neither makes you an authority on the subject nor does it prove he never made a ban. the video footage above proves that he DID make a ban.

your, and others', staggering - it seems almost wilful - myopia on this issue is what gives the Dalai Lama the opportunity to continue to act unopposed.

we are not so blind however - we've experienced it directly and we've made it our priority to educate ourselves thoroughly on this issue so that we know what we're dealing with.

you said: "the whole world knows the truth about the Dalai lama".

it will soon.

Lucy James
30 August 2008 at 04:38

I know Geezer has sabotaged this entire conversation (and the same with Meindert Gorter's other blogs) with his spam but I think it is good that it looks like no one is responding and stooping to his level.

The best way to deal with Geezer and other trolls or spammers is probably just to report them to the New Statesman. It says on their contact page:

To report comments on articles or to make a complaint about New Statesman content please email: comments@newstatesman.co.uk

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 13:51

#geezer: "Dear friends, family and ex-sangha..."

"Do you love me?" LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOiUPl5GjTE

Lyara
30 August 2008 at 20:52

Whenever the Dalai Lama is questioned, the smear campaign against the NKT kicks into full gear. For a refutation of the allegations against it quoted above, please see

http://www.NewKadampaTruth.org

Thank you.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 05:18

Douglas Chalmers (a.k.a. Dick Charmer, Southern Swan, Fong of the Inland) is an online pariah who has spilled his bile and poor behavior on several other websites, including Get Up blogs, where the following advice in regard to him was offered: "Just ignore him. I wish he would get the mental health care that he so desperately needs."

He could also be this "Geezer" character because it appears that Chalmers also talks to his other personalities that he creates.

If you ever encounter him, please follow Tenzin's lead and report him to the blog/comments moderator of the site.

dechen
01 September 2008 at 16:59

I don't know much about the deity Dorje Shugden and don't want to upset any of its followers, so I am very sorry if I end up doing this, please forgive me.

Suppose if the saying of H.H. Dalai Lama about the practice of Shugden is true. Then we would probably not know in which ways obstacles manifest for the Tibetan cause and the health of H.H. Dalai Lama (as stated it would in the article). Could the continued practice of Shugden manifest like discontent practitioners who feels that they must go against this request:

Could the wish to voice strong critique towards a great bodhisattva like H.H. Dalai Lama, not come from practicing of Shugden? Would the practitioner know for sure, that this is not the case.

Could the angry thoughts of the practitioner towards H.H. Dalai Lama and those who impose laws against Dojre Shugden practice not also comes from the practicing of Shugden.

What is the result of these thoughts and critique. Does it benefit the Tibetan cause. Does it benefit the health of H.H. Dalai Lama.

Maybe we should check to see if the protector practice makes us do benefit for sentient beings. Destroying peoples trust in an authentic being and bodhisattva like H.H. Dalai Lama, is not of benefit for beings – it brings the opposite – to the many people who does not even know what a deity practice involves, but just focus on generating a positive mind. Maybe we should check our own practice to see if it makes us more peaceful and tolerant or the opposite.

Some would argue here that it is H.H. Dalai Lama, who is not tolerant – Then I would say, that either H.H. Dalai Lama still has something to work with himself (which I don't think so) or maybe he can see the effect of the practice of Shugden better than most of us practitioners – In either case it is very basic in Buddhism not to criticize a bodhisattva or even our enemies. Please check out “The 37 practices of a Bodhisattva”. I don't think that we can go against Mahayana teachings even though we have a Vajrayana deity practice – no matter which deity we practice.

If we have a deity practice, we definitely have Vajrayana vows and therefore should not disclose the nature of our practice to anyone. Therefore I see no reason to make articles about it, as it could be seen as a violation of the vows one have.

(As I said in the beginning, I don't know much about Dorje Shugden or Buddhism, so excuse me for any mistakes or disharmony created, since it was not intended)

Regards,

Dechen

Dougal
01 September 2008 at 18:53

Dechen -

if you're intention is good, then no apology is necessary.

your basic premise is one that is very commonly held, and therefore worthy of discussion: if one accepts the DL as "a great bodhisattva", then it is wrong to voice dissent over his actions, especially because many people *do* have such a belief, or at least they view him as a good person and the most well-known Buddhist, and such speech will destroy their faith.

you are right that there is a great danger of damage being done to people's faith, both in the DL and in Buddhism in general.

the question a Buddhist must ask themselves, thn, is this: is the harm that will be done by speaking out greater than the harm that will be done if I remain silent? if so, then a Bodhisattva will accept defeat and say nothing. on the other hand, if not, then that Bodhisattva, in accordance with his or her vows, *must* speak out.

this does not mean, as many people believe, that the dissenters are necessarily motivated by anger. even the Buddhas act in a wrathful way when appropriate, out of their boundless compassion for living beings. to mistake such actions as in some way unBuddhist is to mistake them; it is inevitable, and a shame, that this will happen: who is to blame? the Bodhisattva, or the delusion in the mind of the suffering being whose action provoked the wrath?

of course, this is unconscionable to those who have blind faith in the DL: unless they are truly courageous they will inevitably feel attacked, and may resort to angry actions themselves in the defence of their "great bodhisattva". this is so sad, so terrible.

you asked: "What is the result of these thoughts and critique. Does it benefit the Tibetan cause. Does it benefit the health of H.H. Dalai Lama."

it does not benefit the Tibetan cause. the Tibetan cause is politics, and this is Dharma. these two have no relation.

it benefits the health of the DL. this man is sick, and anything which can help him to overcome that sickness is of benefit to him.

we do not hate the Dalai Lama - we love the Dalai Lama. we do not approve his deluded actions, and we wish to destroy his delusion.

we are Mahayana Buddhists. this is our responsibility. we publicly discuss our practice of our Deity with regret, because we are forced to by those who would smear and defame us.

your questions demonstrate a good understanding of Buddhist principles, but some misunderstading about our actions and intentions, and those of the DL. i hope that my answers help to at least clarify our views and wishes.

we pray - as all Buddhists pray - that everyone may be happy and everyone may be freed from suffering.

every day, in our Dorje Shugden puja in the Dharma Centre where i live, we pray for the swift recovery and the swift attainment of everlasting peace and happiness of Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama.

jampel
02 September 2008 at 03:45

Wow, lots of comments. Thank you all for your ideas and opinions. Even if they are a little taunting, it makes for good practice and it is always fun to hear from the other side, even if there is a bit of agitation.

Anyhoo, I wanted to respond to Dechen's comment because I think it brings up a point for all of us to consider (or maybe I am the last one left to be liberated?).

How are we practicing? And what are, and have been the results of our practice. This is a good point but, maybe, we also have to consider our own delusions. If we have strong delusions and blame them on our tradition or lineage something is definitely wrong. We have to acknowledge our delusions and blame them but keep quite about judging a certain practice. If we blame anything it has to be our self-grasping and self-cherishing (I think you know this already) So maybe we have karma to leave a tradition or practice a tradition, still what do we actually know? We just go with what we feel is correct but that is not correct for everyone. The best we can do is keep our intention pure and follow those who we think are doing the same.

So in regards to Dorje Shugden

The Dali Lama himself said that he had no personal experience to say that the practice of Shugden was good our bad. You can read this on his web site. I quote from a response at a media conference in Indianapolis on August 16, 1999.

"There is no reason why I personally should say "'Gyalchen Shugden you have done good or bad'" - for I personally do have some relationship with him, but after some time this became inappropriate in my dealing with questions of Tibet's religion and politics..............." -DL

So where do we step in and when do we engage? When our tradition is threatened by others. Not when we feel another's tradition is incorrect. When innocent people are being harmed, supressed out of their faith and devotion or other causes. We have to act. It is in our Bodhisattva Vows as a down fall of the moral discipline of benefiting others.

Not going to the assistance of those in need, Not acting to dispel suffering, and Not doing wrathful actions when appropriate.

It is very clear that we all feel we are doing the correct things so let us all keep a virtuous intention. Investigate with a balanced mind, exchanging self with others so we can love each other.

One question to Dechen. If you are a practitioner of the Dali Lama ask your center if they allow everyone into their center. This is very helpful to see where the biases lie. The Shudgen practitioner's I know have an everybody welcome policy. Not everybody welcome except.............

For instance I cannot attend a teaching at an FPMT center. Why is this? Because I'm considered non-Buddhist? Who can tell me that? You will allow other religious people into your center. Those who may even feel that all Buddhists are damned in hell. So then, again, why?

It is true we all have to be careful Shugden, non-Shugden it doesn't matter we need to harm our delusions and not each other. It is so easy to talk, but the walking is a bit tougher.

Love to all of you and thanks for teaching me.

-Jampel

dechen
03 September 2008 at 10:50

Thank you Dougal for your clarification, however I have a comment to your answer:

”we are Mahayana Buddhists. this is our responsibility. we publicly discuss our practice of our Deity with regret, because we are forced to by those who would smear and defame us. ”

As a Mahayana Buddhist, I think that smear and defame, is very much connected with the eight worldly concerns, and as a Buddhist we have to use these incidents as our path (even though I am not always able to myself, we have to try as much as we can). Therefore it should not, in my opinion, be a basis for harsh words towards, who we see as the harm doer.

When I watch the links to YouTube from the previous comments to this article, with demonstrators carrying signs that says: “Dalai Lama – Stop Lying” or “Hypocrisy”, then it seems like a pretty hard response and not taking everything onto the path. This is definitely critique and is not part of a discussion or debate. Even though this response is not towards what we ourselves perceive as a Bodhisattva, then we should not react like this towards even our enemy or any sentient beings, they are our teachers. If so I think our practice of Buddhism can turn into a worldly path which is not the goal. This is strictly Mahayana teaching; but even if we take the discussion to a higher view, then the appropriate action will not be in contradiction, since every sentient being have the potential to become a Buddha and therefore we cannot criticize them. Instead we can practice compassion. So compassion instead of demonstrations.

To Jampel:

As an answer to your question: “One question to Dechen. If you are a practitioner of the Dali Lama ask your center if they allow everyone into their center. This is very helpful to see where the biases lie.”

I attend the teachings of the Dalai Lama when I have then possibility, but I am a Nyingma practitioner (very much a beginner ;-). I have been biased all my life and in my formed lives; so the bias lies within myself. I don't know how close the relationship with the spiritual teacher/lama or the lineage holder is in the other Tibetan traditions, but in my tradition we don't go against the word of the teacher, no matter if it seems fair or not, why else would I need a spiritual guide. That doesn't make me a blind follower, because I try to investigate or reason about, why my teacher ask to not to do a specific action, what can the harm be, what can the benefit be? What is he trying to show me?

This would go for the lineage holder as well, as he is my teachers teacher; which makes him my teacher in a way (in my opinion). So what is H.H. Dalai Lama trying to show us, whether he be a Buddha, Bodhisattva or a sentient being? That is important to find out; not where the bias is?

Dougal
03 September 2008 at 21:19

Dechen -

of course, whenever we're harmed, insulted, criticised, then we try to transform this into the path by generating patience, renunciation, compassion, bodhichitta, etc. but we need to be careful not to practise this beautiful Lojong teaching incorrectly. for example, when harmed, we always need to practise patience, but this does not mean that we should never take any action whatsoever to improve a bad situation. practising patience will keep your mind peaceful, but it won't protect your body from an attacker: you need to run away, or possibly even defend yourself, *whilst* trying to practise love, vcompassion and patience in order to control your mind. Buddha never wanted us to become inactive, to become doormats, for how will that help anyone? to take your idea to its logical conclusion, we would do nothing to benefit or protect others other than sitting quietly, training our minds. this is not the Bodhisattva's way.

once more - we are demonstrating *out of compassion*. compassion and demonstrating are not mutually exclusive; one is an inner practice, a mind - the other is an external action. we need to understand this, particularly if it ever becomes necessary to engage in a wrathful action.

allowing the Dalai Lama's delusion to destroy a beautiful, valid path to liberation and enlightenment - thereby denying countless living beings now and in the future the opportunity to meet with and practise this holy Dharma - is *not* a Bodhisattva's action.

of course, you're absolutely right that we have to train ourselves diligently in compassion and patience and wisdom *whilst* demonstrating, but to believe that this is not possible is to deny living beings' capacity to practise Dharma.

in response to your point to Jampel: again, you make some valid points about relying on a Teacher. did you know that the Dalai Lama is directly contradicting and acting against the advice of one of his own Root Gurus, his Junior Tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche? he has said - and i have heard him - that all hids lineage Gurus in this tradityion wre "wrong". this is not a Buddhist practice: His Holiness is sick, and his delusion is creating huge suffering. once again, i believe we must help him and that we must be hard and harsh and wrathful, like a loving mother scolding an angry child who is torturing animals. she cannot just sit and train her mind, can she? she *must* act, and she must act wrathfully, but that doesn't mean she can't still try to train her mind and keep a loving heart.

Friendoftruth
04 September 2008 at 01:14

I would like to add to Dougal's good points the following: many if not all people are either going to demonstrations, or just writing like myself, not out of concern for ourselves, but out of concern for two very important objects:

1-Our own teachings and Lamas. We cannot allow for them to go down in history as demon worshippers and /or sectarian fundamentalist characters. Not that they need our defense against such huge horrendous calomnies. But the beings that could benefit from them and their teachings need that we reverse the Dalai Lama's calumnies and present them as such to the world. Otherwise many people are going to be kept away from our precious teachings, prisoners in the net of lies about our Lamas. This is not fair for sentient beings.

2- Our Sangha in India.

The Dalai Lama obtained only partially what he desires with fervent intent: he broke the Sangha, he divided the religious community. The schism is a fact.

Now the monks reliying on the Protector are kept away from everything, temples, studies halls, kitchens, libraries, everything. They just are not allowed anywhere. So they have retreated to their own quarters, and are living among themselves, with few resources, in a sort of ghetto imposed by the Dalai Lama's orders. (This is true in Ganden and Sera).

But we know that the Dalai Lama is not going to stop there. Once the world is going to forget a little about him, he is going to send his people to attack the monks and one way or another drive them out of the grounds where they still live. And this, even though the land belongs to India.

So we have to continue to appeal to the good people, to the decent people of this world for help. To help those monks, and others in minor monasteries, constantly under the attack of the Dalai Lama's agents, who are, unhappily, numerous in the Tibetan community.

Some out of fanaticism for their leader, some out of fear of their community, they don't hesitate to enact the persecution that the Dalai Lama has decreed.

So we have to defend these people.

Dechen, if you understand our points we invite you to join us in helping them.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 14:26

Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. These lamas are beyond samsara, Bodhisattvas who incarnate repeatedly in human form to lead us out of samsara. They are not concerned about politics but with the ultimate liberation from samsara- the cycle of suffering. Were they worshipping an evil spirit?

Dorje Shudgen is regarded by his practitioners as the same mental continuum of Wisdom Buddha of Manjushiri and JesongKhapa. If you look at the form of Dorje Shudgen - he reveals the complete path to enlightenment. Let me explain:

He wears a monks robes to indicate pure moral discipline is the foundation for spiritual path, his wisdom sword indicates the need to cut through self grasping ignorance -the root of samsara, his heart of compassion which he holds in his right hand , indicates his conventional Bodhichitta, the snow lion he rides on indicates the four fearlessness of a Buddha and so forth. Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner. How can a deity that reveals the complete path to enlightenment be an evil spirit! Once again a logical fallacy. Also Buddha's doctrine on emptiness teaches us that whether someone is a Buddha or a Mara is entirely dependent on our minds.

The HH Dalai Lama has given two reasons for banning the practice of Dorje Shugden;

a) It affects his life and well-being b)it affects the Tibetan cause. If Dorje Shudgen is really is an 'evil spirit/demon/worldly god' how can it affect the HH Dalai Lama - who is said to be the incarnation of Buddha Avalokiteshvara. When BuddhaShayamuni was about to attain enlightenment, Devaputra mara tried to obstruct his spiritual progress by throwing weapons at him but Buddha transformed the weapons into flowers through his meditation on love. After-all the HH Dalai Lama is said to be an enlightened being- the Buddha of Compassion. Why can't he do the same? Buddha has taught that for a Buddhist there are no external enemies simply our internal enemies of delusions and this applies to the so called 'evil spirits' (if that is what the Dalai Lama regards Dorje Shugden to be) - who were once our mothers too.

To be fair to the Dalai Lama, he has never self- proclaimed that he is an enlightened being. He is in reality a politician (a skilful -one at that too )using his spiritual authority for political and worldly aims. I am sure his oracle Nechug (who is infact a worldly spirit and well- known for getting predictions wrong - such as Tibet will be free in 2000) has had a large part to play in this. In fact there are sources that reveal that it is through Nechug's influence the HH Dalai Lama's mind towards the englightened Dorje Shugden changed. Afterall - it is with Dorje Shugden's help that the Dalai Lama escaped from Tibet and Dalai Lama himself was a devout practitioner of Dorje Shugden until the age of 50.

Just because someone opposes the Dalai Lama's actions of destroying many people's spiritual lives does not mean they are in league with the Chinese. Making the link between the two is an undoutable logical fallacy and a result of propaganda. What the Chinese have done to the Tibetan people is despicable to say the least. However, although they may have harmed and killed Tibetans, they never destroyed the unity of the Tibetans nor their rich spiritual heritage. The ban against the practise of Dorje Shugden instigated by the Dalai Lama has done exactly this. Tibetans are turning on Tibetans. This is really sad and heart breaking. (If you are unsure of what I am talking about - please watch the documentary called 'the dalai Lama and dorje Shudgen' in You tube)

History tells us that politics and religion never mix and what is happening is a clear indication of why they don't.

shaza
06 September 2008 at 17:03

Hi Dougal

"allowing the Dalai Lama's delusion to destroy a beautiful, valid path to liberation and enlightenment - thereby denying countless living beings now and in the future the opportunity to meet with and practise this holy Dharma - is *not* a Bodhisattva's action. "

Yes, destroying the practice of Shugen is a Bodhisattva's action.

Because Shugden is a sectarian and a pernicious spirit. And the practice is harmful and not valid.

Best

Shaza

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 22:28

TRIJIANG RINPOCHE OR THE DALAI LAMA; WHO SHOULD WE BELIEVE

I have taken an extract from Trijiang Rinpoche's commentaries to Dorje Shugden practice the 'Music Delighting the Ocean Of Protectors'.

For those of us who don't know he is, Kyabje Trijang Dorjechang (1901-1981) is most the most important Gelugpa Masters of our present time and the Root Guru of most Gelugpa Lamas alive today, including the Dalai Lama. He relied upon Dorje Shugden as his Protector until his death. His current incarnation who lives in Switzerland continues to practice Dorje Shugden as he has done in previous lives.

This is what he has to say about Dorje Shugden (taken from 'Music delighting the ocean of protectors');

"Some, who have fallen under the influence of the demon of the partisanship, think and say that this supreme Deity, the great emanated Dharmapala, is no different than an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit who has an inferior form as a result of being a monk or lay person who died with bad karma. Leave aside relying upon him as a Protector, they even deride others who do so. There are some, indeed, who echo such claims knowing nothing about it.

"Yet all this talk is nothing but babbling speculation. Why? Because this great guardian of the teachings is well known to be the precious supreme emanation from Drepung monastery'supper house, Dragpa Gyaltsen, arising in a wrathful aspect. The proof is unmistaken. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen, as is taught in the lineage, was the final birth in a reincarnation lineage that included the Mahasiddha Birwawa, the great Kashmiri Pandit Shakya Shri, the omniscient Buton, Duldzin Dragpa Gyaltsen, Panchen Sonam Dragpa, and so forth; this is proven by valid scriptural quotation and reasoning. These great beings, from a definitive point of view, were already fully enlightened, and even to common appearances, every one of them was a holy being that attained high states of realization. What worse karma could there be than denying this and asserting that he was born in the preta (spirit) realm?

'Therefore, for holy beings it is not at all far-fetched that they might show themselves in a wrathful form out of the power of compassion and prayer for the sake of a special purpose, and it should be recognized that they are emanations of Buddha's inconceivable secret qualities. But for them to take birth as a sky-wandering preta through the force of negative throwing karma like an ordinary preta would be utterly impossible. To say it were possible would be to deny the validity of the natural law of cause and effect. Why? From the definitive point of view those holy beings are fully enlightened. Moreover, even from the common point of view they attained high states of realization in reliance upon guarding their moral disciplines as they would their eyes, from youth onwards throughout their lives. To say that a causal factor of pure ethical discipline could result in rebirth in a lower realm of existence would be to assert that actions performed could be wasted; that one could experience the results of actions not performed by oneself; and that such scriptural statements as "From generosity, wealth, from ethics, happiness, are invalid and so forth. As a consequence, one would be turning ones back on Buddha's teachings as a whole.

"Furthermore, from the definitive point of view, that these holy beings were already fully enlightened innumerable ages ago, is clear if one examines the accounts of their lives, and if one were to say that a fully enlightened being could take birth as an ordinary gyalpo or tsen spirit, then one would be asserting that degeneration is possible from the state of full enlightenment or that someone could be both fully enlightened and an ordinary preta at the same time! Or else, one would have to say that the accounts of those great beings lives are worthless. A mountain of absurd consequences, previously non-existent distorted ideas, would have to be accepted." – Trijiang Rinpoche

Dougal
06 September 2008 at 22:28

Shaza -

with respect, on what do you base your opinion that Dorje Shugden is a sectarian and pernicious spirit whose practice is harmful and not valid, other than what the Dalai Lama and his supporters have told you?

how is Dorje Shuugden practice harmful? what evidence is there for this?

why is Dorje Shugden practice not valid? what evidence is there for this?

you've just repeated the same old negative opinion, without giving any reason or evidence to back it up. i think that most ordinary folk nowadays, the majority of whom aren't under the Dalai Lama's spell, just won't accept this any more. if you say, as the Dalai Lama has said, things like: "it's bad", "it's spirit worship", "it promotes sectarianism", or even the frankly bonkers "it harms the Dalai Lama's health and the Tibetan cause", then folk will ask you: "why?"

so, Shaza: why? 'cos the Dalai Lama says so?

that's simply not good enough to justify all this persecution.

Dougal
06 September 2008 at 22:31

and Tenzin -

that is NOT your cue to copy and paste, again, all that old, tired and thoroughly-refuted hogwash you've been peddling about murderers and PRC agents, so please don't.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 22:31

TRIJIANG RINPOCHE OR THE DALAI LAMA: WHO SHOULD WE BELIEVE?

Few points to consider;

1) Trijiang Rinponche, an incarnate Lama, is considered to be an emanation of Buddha Amitabha. With the recognition (which Dalai Lama himself was part of)of his current incarnation who is living in Switzerland is further proof of his enlightened status – as we know only Buddhas and Bodhisattva’s who are beyond samsara, can choose their rebirth whereas the rest of us are thrust forward by our Karma to take rebirth in one of the six realms in Samsara.

2) However, we know that mistakes have been made where ‘tulkus’ (incarnates Lama’s ) have been wrongly identified for political/worldly reasons, by mistakes etc I would think the current Dalai Lama – is a classic example of this. So – in our current age we can’t simply rely on his recognition as an incarnate lama to prove his enlightened status. Instead we should look closely at his actions. If you do, it becomes clear that he performs exactly the same the actions of a Buddha and therefore he is a Buddha.

Buddhas have only one function – that is to lead suffering sentient beings out of Samsara. It is only out of their compassion they teach Dharma and reveal the path to enlightenment/liberation. Trijiang Rinpoche has dedicated his whole life to teaching pure Dharma (i.e not mixing Dharma with worldly concerns such as politics, power, manipulations etc) and it is directly through his kindness that we have Dharma in the West !!!Why? - because many of our current lamas in the western world were once his disciples.

So if you ask me who am I going to believe Trijiang Rinpoche or the Dalai Lama, for me it is simple – Trijiang Rinpoche for the following reasons;

1) He has dedicated his whole life to teaching Pure Dharma (i.e: not mixed with worldly concerns such as politics) and I am currently benefiting from his kindness because my root Guru is also one of his disciples. Dalai Lama – has taught NOTHING but pure dharma – Instead he has mixed Dharma with politics, Tibetan culture and worldly concerns. He has abused the kindness of his Guru by using the Dharma he learnt from Trijiang Rinpoche to increase his worldly status that he currently enjoys whilst engaging in the heinous action of causing a schism and destroying Pure Dharma from this world.

2) As mentioned earlier Trijiang Rinpoche’s actions are indicative of the actions of a Buddha , whereas Dalai Lama with his Hollywood celebrity status, guest editing Vogue, appearing Apple Mac adverts, his ‘political’ role in the world and in Tibet, his connections with CIA –are actions of a politician, who is currently using spirituality to further his political and worldly aims. In this respect – he is yet another power hungry world leader filled with worldly concerns masquerading as a spiritual master – who I have compassion for.

Please let us not be fooled by the Dalai Lama’s charisma or his worldly status. We have to check carefully whether his actions are in accordance with the Dharma – or that of a Bodhisattva - which he is supposed to be. Or at the very least – are his actions even in accordance with what he is supposed be champion of ‘human rights and religious freedom’. I THINK NOT! His actions with regards to this Dorje Shugden ‘controversy’ suggests otherwise. Please think for yourself and carefully consider the evidence that is in front of you – if you care to look.

dechen
07 September 2008 at 08:00

Dear FriendofTruth,

Please do not ask me to join forces with you or to go against the Dalai Lama. Asking me to do so already sound like sad communist retorics.

Even though I might be deluded, I don't believe that Buddhist should response to harm with harm; only compassion works.

May all be happy,

Dechen

shaza
07 September 2008 at 13:10

Hi Dougal

-----"with respect, on what do you base your opinion that Dorje Shugden is a sectarian and pernicious spirit whose practice is harmful and not valid, other than what the Dalai Lama and his supporters have told you? "

The advises of numerous spiritual masters such as Dzongza Khyentse Chokyi Lodro, Chogyal Namkhai Norbu, Chatral Rinpoche, HH Trushig Rinpoche, HH Sakya Trizin etc. But the strongest evidence seems to come from Pabongkha and Trijang's own words.

------"how is Dorje Shuugden practice harmful? what evidence is there for this? "

Strong circumstantial evidence: The "Yellow Book" and especially the Life-Entrustment initiation of Shugden.

Trijang wrote in his interlinear notes to this initiation:

'This protector of the doctrine is extremely important for holding Tsongkhapa’s tradition without mixing and corrupting it with confusions due to the great violence and the speed of the force of his actions, which fall like lightning to punish violently all those beings who have wronged the Yellow Hat Tradition, whether they are high or low. This protector is also particularly significant with respect to the fact that many from our own side, monks or lay people, high or low, are not content with Tsongkhapa’s tradition, which is like pure gold, and have mixed and corrupted this tradition with the mistaken views and practices from other schools, which are tenet systems that are reputed to be incredibly profound and amazingly fast but are in reality mistakes among mistakes, faulty, dangerous and misleading paths. In regard to this situation, this protector of the doctrine, this witness, manifests his own form or a variety of unbearable manifestations of terrifying and frightening wrathful and fierce appearances. Due to that, a variety of events, some of them having happened or happening, some of which have been heard or seen, seem to have taken place: some people become unhinged and mad, some have a heart attack and suddenly die, some see through a variety of inauspicious signs their wealth, accumulated possessions and descendants disappear without leaving any trace, like a pond whose feeding river has ceased, whereas some find it difficult to achieve anything in successive lifetimes'

According to Trijang, Shugden punished and killed Gelugs who mixed practices, tell me if it's not sectarian and harmful.

-------"why is Dorje Shugden practice not valid? what evidence is there for this? "

History and lineage.

For instance, Shugden was nothing more than a minor worldly protector (the last of the three gyalpos) in Sakya before Pabongkha turned him into a wisdom protector in the Gelug, against the command of the 13th Dalai Lama. (See Lindsay McCune's thesis http://etd.lib.fsu.edu/theses/available/etd-04092007-003235/... ,p.48, 2007)

And Pabongkha's student Trijang cooked up the whole reincarnation history of Shugden, claiming Sakya Pandita was one of Shugden's previous incarnation and rejected by Sakya scholars today. Please read "Music Delightling the Ocean of Protectors"

--------"so, Shaza: why? 'cos the Dalai Lama says so? that's simply not good enough to justify all this persecution."

Even if the Dalai Lama retracts his denounciation, the evidence will continue to show that Shugden is a pernicious ghost without a valid

lineage.

Best

Shaza

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 13:32

alright... Shaza -

here's a response i posted to one Tenzin, who you may know, on another thread:

"all those great Lamas you list have a view that differs from ours, with our list of great Lamas."

i'll add here: you can cite your historical and scriptural reasons to support your view (see your and others' posts above, and all your various websites); we can cite ours (see our posrts above, and all our various websites).

"so there's a difference of opinion.

so - shall we respect each other - agree to differ - practise our traditions whilst respecting everyone else's freedom to practise theirs?

in other words, shall we act like Buddhists?

or do you think it would be more fitting to instead issue bans and instigate witch-hunts against those we disagree with? use whatever political power we have to create an intolerable social pressure to force them to break their samaya? create the most catastrophic schism that has ever been seen in the Buddhist Sangha?

which would Buddha do, do you think?

and what's your "Buddha of Compassion" doing?

his actions are a disgrace."

i asked Tenzin another question on yet another thread, to which you never gave a clear answer:

"did anything like this irresolvable conflict, this deep schism that's causing widespread pain and disharmony, exist anywhere, within or outside the monasteries, *before* the Dalai Lama banned this practice in 1996?

yes or no?"

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:12

anyway, in the spirit of debate i guess i should address your "proofs" above...

i asked you for evidence of harm. you cited an excerpt from a commentary by Trijang Rinpoche (even the DL has the courtesy to call him "Rinpoche"). his words are strong, no doubt - but who knows his intention: did he mean these things literally? would his audience (learned monks) have taken these words literally, or would they have had the wisdom to interpret their meaning?

a cursory examination would reveal that his intention *cannot* have been that Dorje Shugden literally harms or has harmed living beings: Trijang Rinpoche was explicit and clear that he held the view that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being - this is indisputable. as the nature of enlightened beings is non-harmfulness (and i think we can reasonably assume that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the Ganden Throne Holder, understood the nature of enlightened beings), it is impossible that Trijang Rinpoche's intention was that Dorje Shugden literally causes harm to living beings.

i asked you for evidence that Dorje Shugden practice is not valid. you cited the - disputed - history of the practice. this is not evidence. a valid Buddhist practice s one that is rooted in the Triple Refuge and that leads to the attainment of liberation from suffering, and whose lineage derives from an enlightened being. who are you, Shaza, to make such a judgement about this practice? who is the Dalai Lama, for that matter?

if you do not understand, or have no faith in, the lineage of an instruction, then perhaps that instruction is not for you. for example, i do not understand many lineages in other traditions, derived from Termas, from revelations of holy masters who appeared centuries after Shakyamuni Buddha, and other such sources. but who am i to say that these lineages are not valid? what hubris!

the correct - the *non-sectarian* - approach is to stick to my own practices, received from my masters, in whose lineages i have faith, and to *respect everyone else's right to practise their traditions*.

this is the approach now emphasised by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and other Shugden Lamas. so how is this sectarian? how is this practice harmful?

there IS a sectarian divide in the Sangha now, and much harm being done. but to lay all this at the feet of some imaginary "ghost" is ridiculous.

to find the main factor currently contributing to this awful situation we need ask ourselves only this question:

did anything like this irresolvable conflict, this deep schism that's causing widespread pain and disharmony, exist anywhere, within or outside the monasteries, *before* the Dalai Lama banned this practice in 1996?

shaza
07 September 2008 at 14:25

Hi Dougal,

Well. You said it yourself. You were complaining about how the Shugden practice shall not be destroyed because it's beautiful and valid etc.

I tried to demonstrate that it should be destroyed because it's harmful and invalid and I hope I made a pretty strong case unless you thought otherwise.

And shall we not destroy a harmful practice that passes itself off as Dharma if it turns out to be the case?

------------"we can cite ours (see our posrts above, and all our various websites"

sorry i missed that, could you repeat what's so beautiful and valid about the practice of Shugden?

And to answer your last few questions. I will say yes, the Buddha shall destroy the practice if it's harmful and invalid.

And i will even say that the DL should have stopped the practice in the 70's, immediately after he renouned the practice, so there would be none of these GKG, Kundeling, Gangchen, Gonsar and Dagom brouhaha today.

Best

Shaza

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:54

so Shaza - our opinions differ:

you advocate the suppression of views that differ from yours, by means including even those employed now by the DL and TGIE.

i don't. i think this is wrong. i think this is not Buddhist.

you asked why is Dorje Shugden practice valid? please just have a read around all the sites about this: www.dorjeshugden.com, www.shugdensociety.info, www.aboutwss.org, www.dharmaprotector.org, to name a few. read Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. reread, with an open mind, Music Delightling the Ocean of Protectors, by Trijang Rinpoche.

so why is Dorje Shugden practice valid to me? because i have faith in the lineage passed on to me by my Gurus, from HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongkha Rinpoche, and so on. because when i rely on my Dharma Protector i pray to him to help me increase my wisdom and compassion, to remove the laziness and other obstructions to pure Dharma practice from my mind, to protect me from outer, inner and secret obstacles that will hinder my spiritual development for the benefit of others, to give me what i need to put Dharma into practice, including the wisdom to recognize the opportunities that he presents me with, even if they seem to be adverse conditions, and the strength to apply myself to their transformation. i have never prayed to him for money, or success, or power, or partners, as i sincerely believe he'd never give me such things.

in the years that i have been relying on him, my closest friend, the synthesis of my Guru, Yidam and Protector, the embodiment of the Three Jewels, he has held me back from destroying my spiritual life on so many occasions, he has given me the tools to help others when they've been in real need, he has brought me back when i've been blinded by delusion and wandering lost away from the Truth of Lord Buddha's teachings - all this, and so much more.

so for me - yes, this practice is valid.

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 14:58

also, Shaza: stop avoiding the question -

did anything like this irresolvable conflict, anything approaching this deep schism that's causing widespread pain and disharmony, exist anywhere, within or outside the monasteries, *before* the Dalai Lama banned this practice in 1996?

yes or no?

shaza
07 September 2008 at 15:00

Hi Dougal,

----------'anyway, in the spirit of debate i guess i should address your "proofs" above... '

thx

-----------'i asked you for evidence of harm. you cited an excerpt from a commentary by Trijang Rinpoche (even the DL has the courtesy to call him "Rinpoche"). his words are strong, no doubt - but who knows his intention: did he mean these things literally? would his audience (learned monks) have taken these words literally, or would they have had the wisdom to interpret their meaning?'

I don't know how to read it if it was not meant literally. "The Yellow Book" certainly provide the context that it should be read literally.

-----------------'a cursory examination would reveal that his intention *cannot* have been that Dorje Shugden literally harms or has harmed living beings: Trijang Rinpoche was explicit and clear that he held the view that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being - this is indisputable.'

well, keeping Gelug's teachings "pure" without mixing was certainly worth harming these practitioners according to Trijang Rinpoche (sorry I was being lazy for not typing the Rinpoche part).

---------------'as the nature of enlightened beings is non-harmfulness (and i think we can reasonably assume that Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche, the Ganden Throne Holder, understood the nature of enlightened beings), it is impossible that Trijang Rinpoche's intention was that Dorje Shugden literally causes harm to living beings. '

but he apparently thought differertly when he told those stories to Zemey Rinpoche and wrote that paragraph in the ritual.

-----------------'i asked you for evidence that Dorje Shugden practice is not valid. you cited the - disputed - history of the practice. this is not evidence. a valid Buddhist practice s one that is rooted in the Triple Refuge and that leads to the attainment of liberation from suffering, and whose lineage derives from an enlightened being. who are you, Shaza, to make such a judgement about this practice? who is the Dalai Lama, for that matter? '

But the history to promote the Shugden practice was borne out of ill-will for all to see.

i am of course nothing compare to all the great spiritual masters against Shugden. But can you prove that Shugden is rooted in the Triple Gems ?

----------------'if you do not understand, or have no faith in, the lineage of an instruction, then perhaps that instruction is not for you. for example, i do not understand many lineages in other traditions, derived from Termas, from revelations of holy masters who appeared centuries after Shakyamuni Buddha, and other such sources. but who am i to say that these lineages are not valid? what hubris! '

You have a point. I don't have spirtual intuition in these cases other than the advises that i had from those who had.

That's why i am also arguing on the basis of historical sources.

-------------'the correct - the *non-sectarian* - approach is to stick to my own practices, received from my masters, in whose lineages i have faith, and to *respect everyone else's right to practise their traditions*.'

it's ok to practice just a single practice all your life. But it's a different matter to say you have no option to practice other lineages as Shugden forbids.

And all the six great siddhas in founding period of Gelug were all learning from other lineages in a vibrant non-sectarian atmosphere. (Jan Willis, Enlightened Beings)

----------------'this is the approach now emphasised by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and other Shugden Lamas. so how is this sectarian? how is this practice harmful? '

So GKG wanted to revise the history of Shugden and covered up the malignant part of it now? I heard an NKTer said he decided to stop giving the Life-Entrustment Initiation in the past festival. Is that true?

As Namdrol said, "you can paint shit gold, but it still smells just as bad"

Best

Shaza

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 15:03

i think you may have posted this before reading my reply above:

"I tried to demonstrate that it should be destroyed because it's harmful and invalid and I hope I made a pretty strong case unless you thought otherwise."

i certainly thought otherwise. please see my response at 13:12 GMT above.

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 15:16

sorry - you beat me to it! you read it, and replied.

you said: "but he apparently thought differertly when he told those stories to Zemey Rinpoche and wrote that paragraph in the ritual."

i disagree. citing the Yellow Book is also somewhat disingenuous. i do not believe that learned Lamas such as Zemey Rinpoche believed such superstitious stories as he wrote n that pamphlet, nor that he believed that Trijang Rinpoche was giving him definitive teachings.

you can find examples of such stories associated with very many, if not all, Protectors. for example, the great Palden Lhamo apparently killed and flayed her own son because e wasn't practising Buddha's teachings "purely". she made a saddle out of the skin, which she s depicted using as she rides her horse on the Thangkhas of her. these stories served a purpose once, but no one - no one - with any education or understanding of Dharma would think to take such stories literally. certainly not the Dalai Lama, or other learned Gelugpa Geshes.

i've never - not in any one of all the many Dorje Shugden empowerments that i have received from Gese Kelsang - been told that i *mustn't* practise other lineages, or that i will be harmed by Buddha if i do! i *have* been advised against doing so, with what i felt and still feel were very valid reasons given, but that's a very different thing.

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 15:19

anyway - how did we get onto GKG?

this is about the DL's ban, and its harmful effects.

Dougal
07 September 2008 at 15:30

i

think i'm out of here now. this is about the third time that i've been through these points, and others have been through them all many times here also. they're on the record now, should archaeologists ever dig up this blog... nobody else bar a few of us whve bookmarked it will ever be likely to read all the way down the comments to here, and it doesn't sound to me as if you're mind's for changing, eh, Shaza?

so if you'll excuse me, i'm now done.

the best to you - really.

may everyone be free from misery.

shaza
07 September 2008 at 15:49

Hi Dougal

------------- 'so Shaza - our opinions differ:'

Yes, mine was based on facts and analysis and yours on blind faith, i am afraid.

------------' you advocate the suppression of views that differ from yours, by means including even those employed now by the DL and TGIE.

i don't. i think this is wrong. i think this is not Buddhist.'

I don't. That's why i am here debating with you. I am only human and I could be wrong and you are more than welcome to refute my points.

-----------------' you asked why is Dorje Shugden practice valid? please just have a read around all the sites about this: www.dorjeshugden.com, www.shugdensociety.info, www.aboutwss.org, www.dharmaprotector.org, to name a few. read Heart Jewel by Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. reread, with an open mind, Music Delightling the Ocean of Protectors, by Trijang Rinpoche.'

that's not exactly a proof, is it?

------------------'so why is Dorje Shugden practice valid to me? because i have faith in the lineage passed on to me by my Gurus, from HH Trijang Rinpoche, HH Pabongkha Rinpoche, and so on. because when i rely on my Dharma Protector i pray to him to help me increase my wisdom and compassion....'

you can also pray to Lucifer and hope for world peace. Doesn't change the fact that Lucifer is Lucifer.

------------------'in the years that i have been relying on him, my closest friend, the synthesis of my Guru, Yidam and Protector, the embodiment of the Three Jewels, he has held me back from destroying my spiritual life on so many occasions....'

Yes, i cannot argue with your experience. But your experience does not prove that Shugden practice is dharma. And taking refuge in a spirit, no matter how he helps you, is a breakage of your refuge vows, bodhisattva vows and vajrayana vows.

-------------'also, Shaza: stop avoiding the question -

did anything like this irresolvable conflict, anything approaching this deep schism that's causing widespread pain and disharmony, exist anywhere, within or outside the monasteries, *before* the Dalai Lama banned this practice in 1996?

yes or no?'

In all honesty, i think all sides should exercise restraint. And TGIE shall investigate the matters of systematic discriminations against Shugden practitioners, if any.

Best

Shaza

shaza
07 September 2008 at 17:37

Hi Dougal

-------------------------------------'' i disagree. citing the Yellow Book is also somewhat disingenuous. i do not believe that learned Lamas such as Zemey Rinpoche believed such superstitious stories as he wrote n that pamphlet, nor that he believed that Trijang Rinpoche was giving him definitive teachings.''

well, they are not exactly deflnitive teachings but accounts of how 23 Gelugs, lamas + high officials (including Pabongkha himself) met their sorry destinies for practicing non-Gelug teachings.

The moral of the stories is simple: Mix with non-Gelug practices and you will be punished and killed.

I cannot verify if they were all true but it's obvious that Trijang Rinpoche told the stories and endorsed the publication. Otherwise why would he ordered many copies for his residence? And why on earth would Zemey Tulku published the accounts if he had not obtained the approval of his own very teacher Trijang?

----------------''you can find examples of such stories associated with very many, if not all, Protectors. for example, the great Palden Lhamo apparently killed and flayed her own son because e wasn't practising Buddha's teachings "purely".........'

Maybe she really did!

However, if she killed those who practiced non-Gelug teachings, she will be deemed sectarian and anti-Buddhist. Not every wratful action is justified, you agree?

If you had read The Yellow Book, you will realize the genre is simple prose, not that of an allegory or metaphorical pedagogy of this and that.

I will give you one reason why it is taken literally because GKG read it literally but choose to explain away the dirty parts and makes excuses about Shugden's warning to Pabongkha.

GKG says: 'In the same way if Je Phabongkhapa, through his dreams and other indications stopped certain practices, including some Nyingma practices, then this was his choice. It may be that in his dreams he felt Dorje Shugden was telling him to stop some of his Nyingma practices, but this does not imply that Dorje Shugden does not like the Nyingma tradition. It merely indicates that Je Phabongkhapa had no karmic connection with the Nyingma tradition. If there is no karmic connection with a particular practice, then you will not receive any good results. So please do not misunderstand. ' (Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, talk.religion.buddhism, 19 December 1997)

The Yellow Book says: 'Our very kind and exalted master Phaphongkha Dechen Nyingpo, the

holder of the vajra, too, received transmission on the secret Hayagriva and the Great Exposition on Pure Vision by the Dalai Lama from Dagri Rinpoche Thinley Pema Kunsang Chogyal, great mahasidhi Ose

Thekchog Dorjee,Gungtul Rinpoche Khenrap Palden Tanpai Nyima, Menyak Rekhu Rinpoche Lobsang Chodak Gyatso and others during his early life.

Moreover he received initiation on Dupthap Dojoi Bhum-sang from Gungtul Rinpoche. Later Je Phaphongkha received many transmissions and

teaching from Nyingma tradition. In those days he used to have strange dreams. Sometimes he saw in his dreams bearded monks and at other times grandly robed monks showing unhappy moods. One night he slept on the bed which was on the east of the room, but when he woke up he found himself on the bed which was on the west side of the room. One

night when he was not able to sleep he heard some strange and ominous voices of a woman and another person shouting alternately around mid-night. The noise seemed to be coming from a distant place coming closer to his home, finally he saw a red hand sticking through the curtain. He thought it was due to the miraculous power of Dorjee Shugden. He confessed and asked to be forgiven and the noise returned the way it came. In the water-mouse year, when the Chinese troops had already entered Tibet, the Tibetan Government decided to do some religious service for the peace and safety of the nation. With the

instruction from His Holiness the DalaiLama, JePhaphongkha gave the transmission Kagyur in the Gaden Hall. Soon after that teaching, he was so seriously ill that he almost passed away. The sickness was due to certain poison. When he recovered, his whole body had become

bluish. Dorjee Shugden also used other means to persuade Je Phaphongkha to practice and propagate pure Gelug tradition free of defilements. Finally he stopped taking and practicing Nyingma teachings and did not propagate what he had learned. He kept his

promise and maintained pure Gelug tradition. Therefore, during the later part of his life, his Dharma deeds spread even to places outside Tibet like China and Mongolia. ' '

So apparently, GKG thought all the "indications" that Pabongkha got from Shugden were all justified, including the poisoning part.

----------------------------' anyway - how did we get onto GKG? this is about the DL's ban, and its harmful effects.'

well, because the version of Shugden as the benign, non-sectarian Buddha is pretty much a fabrication of GKG. And if he didn't think there's something wrong with the initiation, why would he stop teaching it?

Some of your fellow Shugdenpas seem to think that it's OK to be sectarian and they are not to be blamed, because it was how it was taught by Pabongkha and Trijang etc. They also read The Yellow Book literally.

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm

''''''''''''''The much talked about "yellow book" contains stories of what happened to people who "displeased" Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa's tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told. (As a consequence of the scandal following the printing of the yellow book, Tzeme Rinpoche has ceased to teach. A famous disciple of Tzeme Rinpoche is Dr. Thupten Jinpa, HH the Dalai Lama's main translator.) '''''''''''''''''''

Best

Shaza

Tenzin Peljor
08 September 2008 at 11:49

An overview on academic researches regerding the Dorje Shugden Controersy can be found here:

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/07/24/academ...

My thoughts about Fundamentalism and Buddhism together with an extensive link section can be found here:

http://buddhism-and-fundamentalism.blogspot.com/

Thoughts about mixing Dharma with Politics can be found here.

http://westernshugdensociety.wordpress.com/2008/08/13/mixing...

A less partisan summery of the conflict can be found here:

http://info-buddhism.com/dorje_shugden_controversy.html

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 14:19

ok, i couldn't resist replying to that...

less partizan??

Tenzin, you - one of the most vehement, prolific and obsessive anti-Shugden/anti-NKT posters on the world web web, with your several, various anti websites and blogs (including info-buddhism.com and info-buddhismus.de) - "less parrtizan"???

:-D

my friend - that would be hilarious were it not for the fact that lying is a breach of your "Bhikkshu" vows.

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 14:26

also - i know i told you i was out of here, but Tenzin's got me going again, so...

Shaza (ok, i accept that you're not Tenzin now, your English is better) -

here's a post from another blog which i feel is relevant here, as these threads are devolving into theological debate about the nature of Dorje Shugden, and THAT IS NOT THE POINT. this guy sums it up well:

"#08/09/2008 00:21:02 Alert a moderator

Myriad hair splitting debates doesn't change the harm done

By practitioner USA

If you check the people supporting the Dalai Lama on this issue have put themselves in the position where they need to justify the harm being done to the Dorje Shugden practitioners. So they say they are violent, terrorists, fundamentalists, cultish, etc. If you examine carefully these are being voiced as justifications of the actions being taken by many Tibetans including the Dalai Lama to get rid of the practice (and implicitly people holding onto the practice). If we analyze the great tragedies of persecution and marginalization that have occurred in recent history they are often performed in the name of what is morally expedient and the actions are justified by demonizing the victims as somehow deserving of the harm done. If you check the truth of these words you will see that is exactly what the anti-Dorje Shugden people are saying here...

Its time to stop reasoning from madness. If you consider yourself a Buddhist how can you harm others?

The most entertaining aspect of this debate is watching the fanatical criticism of anyone who is speaking up about these unethical actions... Just for protesting, writing letters, blogging, etc they are being called cult members, fanatical, chinese agents, and incapable of independent thought. I have news for you nobody is being harmed by these protests. Going and holding signs isn't creating turmoil. However if you talk to Tibetans in the USA about what is going on with the signature campaign you will find this is not a 300 year old problem. It's a ten year old problem and the Dalai Lama is causing far worse division within the Tibetan community now with his speech than has ever existed with respect to this issue ever before. It doesn't matter how many lamas agree with the Dalai Lama; what's being done isn't right. Please wake up..."

shaza
08 September 2008 at 17:40

Hi Dougal

-----------------"here's a post from another blog which i feel is relevant here, as these threads are devolving into theological debate about the nature of Dorje Shugden, and THAT IS NOT THE POINT. this guy sums it up well: "

well, you said a Bodisattva should not destroy a beautiful and valid practice like Shugden.

all i have been trying to demonstrate is it should be destroyed because it's harmful and invalid.

unless you don't think it matters whether Shugden is harmful or not.

and the guy you quote has a serious problem understanding the debate here. It's not hair splitting as he says because there is a gulf of difference between GKG's version of Shugden and what Trijang and Pabongkha taught about him.

There's actually one way out of it.

Admit GKG has a higher authority than Trijang and Pabongkha and he could purify and censor his teachers' deluded teachings on Shugden.

If you can appeal to GKG's spiritual authority in this regard, maybe you will have a stronger case.

Best

Shaza

Dougal
08 September 2008 at 23:23

Shaza -

judging by your comments so far, i'm not sure that you'll understand this, and so this reasoning may not work for you. however, i'll try.

since the time of Lord Buddha, the Dharma as been passed down from Guru to disciple. by relying sincerely on the advice of the Guru, the disciple practises sincerely and thereby gains their own direct experience of the Dharma taught to them. they then become a suitable person to be relied upon as a Guru and to pass on this lineage of realization to their own disciples.

this is the way it has always been.

therefore, neither the Dalai Lama nor GKG can be a higher authority than Trijang Rinpoche, their Guru (or one of them - one can have many, but the DL himself described Trijang Rinpoche as a "root Guru" of his, and GKG's devotion to TR is well-known).

GKG does indeed hold a higher authority than the DL here, because he has never gone against the advice of his Guru, Trijang Rinpoche, whereas the Dalai Lama has broken his samaya, which Buddha said is a cause of losing all one's previous experience of Dharma.

however - once again, this is getting away from the point. i did indeed get into debate with you on the validity or otherwise of Dorje Shugden practice (and you made a good job of kicking me round the debating hall with your quotations from Zemey Rinpoche's - imho, not to-be-taken-literally - storybook!), but i now realise that that, while interesting, is of very little relevance in this debate on human rights.

as has been mentioned elsewhere, if i wish to worship a tree, i should be able to do so free from fear of intimidation and persecution. so what need is there (to use a favourite bit of Tibetan rhetoric) to speak of a widely-practised and generally well-loved Buddhist lineage?

whatever you think of Dorje Shugden practice and its supposed sectarian results, nothing even remotely approacing this terrible schism in the Sangha and division of the Tibetan community existed anywhere before the DL's ban in 1996.

Dougal
09 September 2008 at 00:57

anyway -

i AM out of here now. at least, until i'm next unable to restrain myself...

shaza
09 September 2008 at 12:47

Hi Dougal

-----------------------------""judging by your comments so far, i'm not sure that you'll understand this, and so this reasoning may not work for you. however, i'll try.""

You are right i am not convinced because it doesn't make sense.

you said GKG has a higher authority than DL because he listens to Trijang while the DL did not.

but what i was trying to say is GKG didn't quite listen to Trijang's words because he went against Trijang's idea of Shugden as a sectarian protector, the "Wisdom Buddha" that will bring harm to those who dared to wrong the Gelug 'purity'.

Incidentally, GKG even stopped transmitting the Life-entrustment initiation today. Is there something he's hiding??

-------------------------------""since the time of Lord Buddha, the Dharma as been passed down from Guru to disciple. by relying sincerely on the advice of the Guru, the disciple practises sincerely and thereby gains their own direct experience of the Dharma taught to them. they then become a suitable person to be relied upon as a Guru and to pass on this lineage of realization to their own disciples. this is the way it has always been. ""

Unfortunately, there were also false teachings and broken samayas that continue to contaminate diff. lineages. That's why we need to investigate otherwise it's called blind faith.

--------------------------'''therefore, neither the Dalai Lama nor GKG can be a higher authority than Trijang Rinpoche, their Guru (or one of them - one can have many, but the DL himself described Trijang Rinpoche as a "root Guru" of his, and GKG's devotion to TR is well-known).""

Logic.

If there's a disagreement btw teacher and student, the student is always wrong? And in the history of Tibetan Buddhism, we have numerous examples of students' accomplishments outshining those of their teachers. That's why i said it'll be tougher to argue with you if you can claim GKG's authority over his own teachers.

---------------------------''GKG does indeed hold a higher authority than the DL here, because he has never gone against the advice of his Guru, Trijang Rinpoche, whereas the Dalai Lama has broken his samaya, which Buddha said is a cause of losing all one's previous experience of Dharma.""

blind devotion = spiritual authority?

if the the advice is false and invalid, that teaching is defunct.

So what about Je Pabongkha, who broke his samayas with the 13th Dalai Lama when he went back on his promise to stop propitiating Shugden??

------------------------------------""as has been mentioned elsewhere, if i wish to worship a tree, i should be able to do so free from fear of intimidation and persecution. so what need is there (to use a favourite bit of Tibetan rhetoric) to speak of a widely-practised and generally well-loved Buddhist lineage?""

But if Catholics are worshipping Lucifer as if he's a saint, do you think the Pope will turn a blind eye without saying anything??

Unprotected sexual intercourse is also "widely-practised and generally well-loved"...and ?

Best

Shaza

Geronimo
10 September 2008 at 22:31

Shaza, your logic tell me to tell you to go worship yourself!

It's quite clear that to take Refuge in a reincarnating Lama that took the life force from a Wisdom Budha and pursues a Lost Cause of Mixing Lord Buddha Teachings is not necessarily a very good bet. He is too busy working this assasination karma or too sick, to be very good counsel. Not that I can judge one's karma.

This lama breaks the Vinaya and betrays the Principles of Democracy with the very Mantleshe wears. Whether he pretends that he is not wearing his politcal mantle. Everyone, including you, know that no one in the Dalia Cult would ever go against what he wants.

We do not care what he says about this.

Becasue it is obvious that he is quite ill .

This is why, we are conducting a Great Healing on this Dalia Lama and will cast out his previous troubled and apparently possessed incarnations, to better heal his soul.

How else could he possibly pursue such a suicidal course of action for the Tibetan Peoples. 'Here in the West, we already know , as he said," I do not care, if they[us] walk on their heads, We brought the Dharma to them. Not they to us".

He and his family rejoice in the money they take gleefully from the Western people.

They steal money, the same way they distort the Teachings of Lord Budha.

By lying and deceiving the wide eyed western people.

If he had a country to hold anymore, I could see little difference betwen him and Kim Young of North Korea self glorification as an authoritarian dictator. Dalia and Daddy.

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 05:04

Dalia Lama, Samdong, Tenzin Peljor,

It's Time to Mend your Ways!

Right Away Without Delays!

Because as they say,

"A pig with lipstick,

Is Still a pig!"

A man in robes is not a monk nor a lama!

Just a man in robes!

Unless a Man in Robes ,

Is Actually Practicing the Precepts of Lord Buddha

He is just a man in robes,

neither a monk,

nor a lama.

Just a Man!

This Makes All of You!

Just Men, In Robes, Lying!

Not a monk, nor a lama!

Practice the Precepts of Lord Buddha!

Become Monks or Lamas,

or

Just Be Anyone!

Trying to Practice,

To Follow the Way!

The Perfect Precepts,

Of Lord Buddha's Way!

Practice The Precepts!

Say the Truth!

Redeem Yourself!

Of

Your Self-Cherishing Ways!

"Peace & Blessings"

are

" Every One's Rights!"

"Confederation of Shambala Warriors"

Council Of Vajra Elders

Thomas Canada

Empire_Watch
11 September 2008 at 10:05

I can't believe this discussion is still going!

Just read through what you guys are saying, I am sure the Dalai Lama will be disappointed.

shaza
11 September 2008 at 11:31

Hi Geronimo,

-------------------------------------- "It's quite clear that to take Refuge in a reincarnating Lama that took the life force from a Wisdom Budha and pursues a Lost Cause of Mixing Lord Buddha Teachings is not necessarily a very good bet. He is too busy working this assasination karma or too sick, to be very good counsel. Not that I can judge one's karma."

So you are actually saying the life force of a "Wisdom Buddha" like the Almighty Shugden could be taken away??

That's baffling. Because most Shugdenpas today think he is anything but a worldly spirit.

Best

Shaza

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 19:15

Well Doug, It is baffling! Isn't it?

Geronimo
11 September 2008 at 21:13

Although we should criticize China's censored media, the Tibet riots revealed some troubling blindness among our own media. While the causes of Tibetan unrest are complex, it is clear that the March riots were started by Tibetan protesters and that they were quite violent. Indeed, they were violent enough to lead the Dalai Lama to threaten resignation if his followers did not stop the violence.

Since "violent Tibetan" does not fit our stereotype, our media fixed the news. While Chinese media showed extensive footage of violence and interviews with Chinese and Tibetan victims, Western media manipulated images and even showed footage from other countries (Nepal and India) in order to paint a picture of ruthless oppression by China's government.

Chinese media exposed the Western media manipulations, forcing the BBC, N-TV and RTL-TV to apologize. Not surprisingly, the American media has yet to acknowledge

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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its bending of the truth. The point is that while the Chinese know their media is censored and do not trust it, we believe our news is objective and end up being righteous while misinformed.

If we had seen the violence of the Tibet riots, our condemnations may be more nuanced. Quite simply, no government, democratic or not, allows such violence within its own borders. Providing peace and stability, even by force if necessary, is what governments do.

Large and powerful countries tend to have regions that were not always part of the country. In America, we proudly call it Manifest Destiny and never trouble ourselves with how we got much of California and Texas from Mexico, never mind the rest of the country and our sordid history with Native Americans.

On the Chinese flag there are five stars commonly interpreted as representing the five major ethnic groups in China. One of those stars represents Tibetans. China's claim to Tibet spans centuries and it is a claim that the United States and the rest of the world recognizes.

To Chinese people, removing one of those stars is akin to removing one of our states, such as Hawaii. Our history with the native people of Hawaii has been relatively brief and quite brutal and there exists a tenacious independence movement. Still, there is no talk in the mainstream media and among the Hollywood celebrity activist circuit of Hawaiian independence, not to mention Puerto Rican independence or the American Indian movement.

Government repression of these movements also escapes media scrutiny. Before we lecture China, we may want to tend to our own backyard.

Amid cries of "free Tibet" and calls for religious freedom, the question is what does freedom have to do with Tibet? Under the Dalai Lama, was there religious freedom? Was there any freedom? Actually, no.

We would recognize the Dalai Lama's Tibet as a medieval religious theocracy with a small elite class served by a large and oppressed serf population. The Dalai Lama ruled a region with no religious freedom, no political freedom, indeed, no human rights of any kind. The rulers were ruthless. Torture and mutilation were widespread. Poverty and starvation were rampant. It was Shangri-La only in the West's imagination.

Richard Gere, Sharon Stone and other Hollywood devotees may be surprised at their idol's current positions. The Dalai Lama condemns abortion and homosexuality while accepting prostitution. For decades the Dalai Lama secured millions of dollars from the CIA and runs his government in exile like a monarch.

Despite its shortcomings, Chinese rule has provided the Tibetan region with infrastructure and public schooling and provides Tibetans with widespread opportunities and a degree of personal freedom unheard of under the feudal theocracy of the dalai lamas.

China is far from perfect and deserves honest scrutiny and criticism. To expect China not to act like a large and powerful country, however, and to throw stones from our glass house, proves nothing but our own ignorance.

Geronimo
12 September 2008 at 05:41

10

Sep

08Open Letter to Robert Thurman from the Western Shugden Society

post info

By goldenmala

Categories: western shugden society

Tags: bob thurman, buddhist taliban, dorje shugden, dorje shugden controversy, gelugpa, kagyu, nyingma, robert thurman, sakya, sectarianism, shugden

This letter was posted on the Western Shugden Society website today:

An Open Letter

To Robert Thurman,

We the Western Shugden Society are writing this letter regarding your previous public statement that Shugden people are sectarian, naming them “the Buddhist Taliban”; and your recent public statement that the Western Shugden Society protestors are “working for the Chinese”.

As you know, Shugden people want to practice the Gelug tradition purely, without mixing with the Nyingma tradition. Because of this the Dalai Lama has said to Shugden people that they are sectarian. In truth, the Nyingmapa also want to practice their Nyingma tradition purely without mixing with the Gelug tradition; and it is the same for the Sakyapa and Kagyupa. So according to the Dalai Lama’s view, the Nyingmapa, Sakyapa and Kagyupa are also sectarian, but he only says that Shugden people are sectarian. In reality he is lying.

If you, Robert Thurman, are not yourself lying, then you must show your evidence to prove your public statements: that Shugden people are sectarian, “the Buddhist Taliban” as you named them; and that the Western Shugden Society is working for the Chinese. You should show your evidence publicly through the internet before 25th October 2008. If your evidence does not appear by this date then we will conclude that you have lied publicly and are misleading people.

Sincerely,

Western Shugden Society

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1 Thom

September 12, 2008 at 1:02 am

Inside the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center with the Dalia Lama’s family having fun.

In 1979 in Bloomington,Indiana. We built the Tibetan Cultural Center at the request of the Dalia Lama, to act as a respository for the Vast Treasure Trove of Knowledge. Which at that time, the Cultural Revolution appeared to have litle chance of surviving with any kind of substance.

Before the fame of Daliai Lama was world renowned and he was teaching to maybe 30 or 40 people and no security guards or admission fees. Just one on one! Now this was very nice and dharma flourished in Southern Indiana and Wisconsin.

Years later in 1996. Everything changed with his stepping over the boundaries of our differing cultures by violating others Religious Beliefs and Persecuting only one of the 1,000 Dieties of the Mahayanna Buddhist Pathenon, Shri Dorje Shugden. The same that the 5th took measures to eradicate before seizeing absolute control over Tibet, with the full power of the Mongolian Cavalry slaughtering his opposition.

I do know that the stuff that is going on in the name of Lord Buddha and Tibet, has nothing to do with The Teachings of Buddha ,and it should not be confused as the same.

The Lamas bought over 20 Tibetan Mahayanna Buddhist Monks. We proceeded to build Kyabje Trijang Dorje Chang Rinpoche first Monastery in the Americas. He dedicated this monastery to the Preservation of the Teachngs of Je T’songkhapa.

Gonsar Tulku enshrined Shri Dorje Shugden to be the Protector of Dagom Geden Tensung Ling Monastery, forever,

Just as Lord Buddha said, “The Wheel Of Dharma, will turn to the Land of the Red Men” where it will flourish.

It would be normal for all Buddhist Practioners to rejoice in the establishment of the dharma in the West.

Instead, we are attacked for Preserving the Teachings and Humiliated in the media as Devil Worshippers.

This year has shown the true face of Tibet’s Ancient Tribalism conflicting values and Priciples with Modern Nation States.

Now, we have people like Taliban Bob Thurman appointed to sit as Chair of the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center. Where the reports from the locals go like this and the liars and deceivers as Bob and his compatriots continue to run amuck and steal what they can, while they can get away with it.

“Oh negative energy abounds out there even now. Kunyang and Jigme Norbu took funds and hundreds of thousands of them for years for their own personal use. They also took money out of the equity of the buildings out there–well over a million dollars supposedly from that alone. Then the bank who hadn’t been paid in forever foreclosed and it went up to one day before a sheriffs sale before would have confiscated the proeperty.

H.H. was able to get the money together to stave the banks off for a month or something. Then in the end he had to ask four very wealthy people he knew personally to save it, which they did, by paying off all of the loans. Meanwhile Kunyang and Jigme still drive around town in very expensive automobiles, still have their restaurants and lots of rental property. So in 2003 I think it was

The entire place was re-organized and the Norbu family had to sign off of everything out there. So Norbu has been and was being taken care of by monks and lay tibetan men or he would have been in a nursing home. The house they built for themselves in the back part of those 108 acres .

I believe Kunyang no longer lived there even. So yeah, bad blood as they say. Jetsun Pema showed up and hair went up on end with her sister-in-law.

I am the only person around here that gave significant money to the center over the years that is still around. And I left town and only came and went now and then. For a long time the Norbus and (Mr. Norbu was not sick at this time) kept the gates locked and you couldn’t even go out there.

But during those years I always figured he needed that privacy. I mean you know what a life, made him kind of crazy in my opinion.

When all the re-organization happened, Dalai Lama appointed Arji Rinpoches to head the center. In short, it’s been more of the same and worse.

Arji ’s story is difficult to be sure, but he is a real dictator and doesn’t like women except to be the oh the great one! Oh kow tow! You know how it is…a very male oriented society even if the women in Tibet had a measure of more freedom that those in the rest of Asia .

He was tight with the communists for years after his release from prison camp for supposedly 16 years. You know the whole story is never told…

So more of the same, the ‘public’ will not be allowed to attend the traditional cremation for Tagster Norbu.

Compare that to little Lama Yesche, who didn’t even hold a gesche degree but had more flourishing centers world wide than just about any one else! He wanted all people who could come from all over the world to attend his cremation–his final teachings. He died at age 49. So it goes with the Norbu family. Kunyang is out there along with Jigme strutting around ‘in control’ for a short time again. Never learned, just never learned. Meanwhile Jetsun Pema was sent immediately by H.H. to supervise the arrangements, and of course Pare Rinpoche is there. I think H.H. sent Pare rinpoche for this purpose I really do, to see his brother out!

This is the way Bod deals with the rustics in Indiana. He will do little but use it a podium to further lie and deceive the wide-eyed western people.

2 Thom

September 12, 2008 at 3:31 am

Defend the Dharmapala’s Monastery

Dagom GedenTensung Ling

Excerpts Herald Telephone Interviews

Thubten Norbu

Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center

“The Dalai Lama has actually repudiated his own spiritual guide, which is, again, very un-Buddhist. The Dalai Lama himself offered prayers to Dorje Shugden for 40 years.

Yet now he repudiates him. And he won’t say why.”This is a worldly deity”.

The Dalai Lama’s elder brother, retired Indiana University professor Thubten J. Norbu, talked about the controversy at his home outside Bloomington. And his mind is somewhat clear about the Shugden dispute.

“This is a free country. If these people want to worship a ghost, they can worship a ghost.

But I believe this is a worldly deity and this is not Buddhism, you know”.

Norbu said he did not know why his brother, the Dalai Lama, turned against Shugden.

“He must have his reasons.

My brother is one to thoroughly study everything.

He knows what he is doing.”

He practiced Shugden himself, until 1995. When he also had to give up his practice to please his brothers’s wishes.

Thom Canada, who donated the 100-acre site in 1979 on the south of town that includes the cultural center and Norbu home, is now a supporter of the Shugden postion of religious freedom, and it’s beleagured practitioners.

He has donated land next to Cascades Park for a monastery accommodating Shugden worshippers and sees himself as a “rescue” resource for persecuted Shugden followers that endure suppression and violation of their Civil Rights from the Dalia Lama.

“I’ve gotten a death threat myself,” Canada said last week. “So when they say there is no persecution going on, don’t believe it. There are vigilantes out there who at least believe they are doing the Dalai Lama’s will. They told me ‘We’re going to kill you and we’re going to kill all the other lamas, one by one.’”

Bruce E. Wilson, who leads a small, third congregation of Tibetan Buddhism followers in Bloomington, says, “There is a Tibetan proverb that says you can’t have politics without religion and religion without politics. I think in the U.S. our great strength is the separation of church and state, and it’s not hard to see why.”

If there is one thing all factions agree on regarding the Shugden controversy it is the quintessentially Buddhist notion that each individual must seek his or her own answers and that no one should accept any one point of view simply because someone else does.

“Buddha said, ‘Monks, just as skilled persons, accept gold after testing it, by heating, cutting and rubbing it. Likewise, you should accept my words after examining them. Do not do so out of respect (for me),” Wilson recited.

I’m sure there’s quite a few Shugden practitioners who are attempting to remain silent about the Dalai Lama. Because of the West’s perception of him, in other words, they are acting and speaking for the wrong reasons, motivated out of self-interests and agendas, as well as pride.

Times have changed.

I cannot believe there is any discussions as to how polite we should be to the enemy of the Lineage?

I find it difficult to understand how anyone here cannot have a real understanding of a man.

Who claims to have the same mind continuum as the 5th & 13th Dalia lama.

Would not understand the depth of pain our Vajra Brothers suffered.

The 13th Dalia lama had their skins peeled from their bodies, very slowly over several days, until they succumbed, only 70_80 years ago.

Their cime was to place a piece of paper in Dalia lama shoe.

Imagine with Dalia lama admitted mind continuum.

As being exactly the same as the 5th & 13th Dalia lama

How much spite and scorn he has to hold for all of the centuries.

Even now in the light of day. He attempts the same now as those he flayed alive.

Only today,he uses false allegations and character assassination to

dismember his victims.

Dalia lama acts with much vengeful spite towards our brothers & Sisters and defamed our Teachers.

He is sick and his days are Very numbered.

The beauty of our position,as I see it.

Is we have truth and honesty on our side.

It doesn’t matter what they think about us at all.

Because we do not have to scheme and lie and try to trick anyone.

As they do.

I remember old Taliban Bob equating us to the Taliban, “Just like the Taliban”.

They had a full color photo of Dorje Shugden inside of Newsweek, and the story made Dorje Shugden look as alien to Mahayana Buddhism as a Catholic Cross would look like in a Mosque.

However they published a full color photo that made world circulation for everyone to get a glance of the Protector. Somehow they thought this made Shugden look different than theother 1,000 dieties of Mahayanna Buddhism. Twisted logic from Twisted Bob. Bob told me that he had taken over 800 LSD trips one night over a bottle of wine. That impressed me at the time.

I thought it rather a rash choice to make in defense of the Dalia lama to portray Shugden in

Newsweek.

I would have at that point in 1996_1999, thought if incredibly rude and ill-mannered to depict or reveal such intimate knowledge of Buddhism in a common tabloid as Bob choose to do.

But he choose to do as he does now. Make a fool out of himself

But that was then and not now. Now we know what it is and what to name it.Lies and Deceit!

They tried to tie murder wrap on Dragpa Gyaltesen, and it was thrown out of court.

But the stigma stuck in their repetoire of lying and deceitfulness

I figure we can unravel this package the same way it was wrapped up to begin with.

We need to continue to say the simple truth over and over and over again.

Call him whatever you want.

Because for too long people have been afraid to call him anything, other than your Holiness.

Well now, he no longer deserves or warrants any more respect than to call him Fred.

He is ordinary and does not practice the precepts.

No matter how much he sits and prays with Inter Faith Groups.

He is nothing more than a person like all the rest of us and is going through changes.

Once Dalia he realizes that he is an ordinary human.

He will be like the “Last Emperor of China”!

It’s just now we find that he is like a hungry ghost pursuing obsessions life time after life time vainly attempting to prove himself more adept, advanced and skilled than his superior, Dragpa Gyaltsen.

Whom he or his ministers stole his life force by shoving katas down his throat to cease his life functions and he became the Supreme Protector of The Dharma and provides each and every one of us the very best conditions of environment for us to mediate.

To achieve enlightenment and be happy all of the time. Sounds pretty scary to me.

What do you think?

Dalia’s ghost obsesses on one thing and one thing only.

Because his phantom has been unable to acccept his misdeeds.

That being when he decided to murder the Wisdom Buddha, Dragpa Gyaltsen.

I think of how the Hobbits rediscovered the ring and then one was killed and the other went on for hundreds of years in unimaginable isolation and suffering all deluded states imaginable self cherishing apparitions that blind him of his true state of guilt of murdering his friend to posses the ring . Thus enraptured with his delusions he flees from his mind’s judgement.

It causes me to reflect on this a little.

He wears the abhorrence of his crime similarly as in “The Portrait of Dorian Grey”, betrayed by his own mind’s evil nature.

Dalia lama carries this imprint of misdeed as a porter carries his load up a hillside.

He always stoops and not from humility.

But from the weight of carrying the Three Poisons over hundreds of years.

Dalia is making strategic errors now .It read clearly how desperate he is to see that his facade is crumbling before his eyes, with all his lies, he broadcasts them all over the world.

He does not consider how lies fly faster, than when he was a kid growing up in Lhasa.

His lies are moving faster than the speed of light in a cyclotron.

The lies are moving him out of his castle and onto the playing field.

The lies pile up higher than all the Bones of Mount Meru. For everyone to see the truth behind his lies.

All the conjured rituals of fear mongering he has created will come back to him in full stark clarity of his deepest fears being realized are exposed for the whole world to know.

Total disclosure of his misdeeds will eventually make him grateful to the Protector and lamas for healing this festering sore. He will be grateful eventually. I promise!

Now he looks quite sick.

Look into his face and eyes, and you can see his sickness.

I remember Dagom Rinpoche and Norbu meeting at the TCC .

I was giving Dagom Rinpoche a tour of my town and we drove up to the Tibetan Cultural Center on a whim and I was unprepared for what happened next was beyond belief.

We drove up to Chorten and there was old Tagster standing guard and Rinpoche was smiling

at Norbu and giggling a little through the car window. They obviously knew one another.

Norbu literally turned red and his face took on a demon of some sort. He snarled at me and told me leave.

I got out of the van and stood up in his face and asked. Why he is so rude to a new friend of mine and a lama?

I stared into eyes I had never noticed in the last 33 years.

I saw hate incarnate in my face.

I almost crawled on top of him in that minute.

Rinpoche called me back in and said, forget him.

I drove away never to speak to him again.

Mr. Norbu predicted, “I will be reborn as a Burro in Tijuana Mexico. ”

I used to argue and say, that this would never be.

Now, I understand why he would say this again and again.

He’d been selling OUT his countrymen and convinced them to sacrifice their lives in a nasty little guerrilla war for the KGB and the CIA for years.

He once was human and once he was a monk, But

He’d been doing this long before I ever met him!

However a promise is a promise.

The situation in India is where it is today.

Because even after the Boss cooled down for a few years, everyone thought our work is done.

In fact, I was sent a letter from the Monastery in India that said,”Our Work Is Done”.

So no one did anything, and thought, “we’ll just quietly practice our Dharma and maybe they’ll leave us alone.”

Like before!

That’s what I was told me happened after the flaying of the monks alive back in the 1930’s.

We’re Buddhist, we can handle a little roughing up every now and then.

Besides we have our vows to protect.

Now, we’ve done nothing for years, and everyone gets concerned and jumps up and down and runs around in panic and surprise that he was at it again.

I remember all the kind words.

It got absolutely no where, whatsoever.

“If you ain’t got nothing, you ain’t got nothing to lose”

So stack up the attachments and people hang on to what holds them back.

I remember the most single moving act of a monk in 1964 Viet Nam lighting himself up in a lotus position with a jerry can of gasoline to protest the US presence, bringing more heartbreak to Viet Nam.

He never wavered as the flames consumed his body.

He remained in perfect equipoise as he taught me enough at 16 not to join the army at 18.

Was this too violent or abusive to others less learned , young or naive, than he ?

Did he break a vow with his act?

He stunned the world or my world with a totally alien and illegal act.

Was it suicide or sacrifice or a teaching?

I’m sure his motivation was Bodichitta inspired.

What I think is that any words that can bring this useless suffering to an end is far better than being forced to light oneself up to prove a point or gain attention.

What gets headlines and brings attention to the plight of the monks and the gross violations being perpetrated upon all of us who believe in total Equality for all sentient beings.

I think the lamas and monks have set the tone from how it feels from their side of the planet.

Not ours, over here in the relative comfort of the West.

Kunden ling and others are taking the heat in New Delhi with constant pressures from the goon squads of the Dalia lama.

Remember how that felt back then? I do!

However the stakes have changed and it is apparent by the recent news that DL and Thurman have completely come unhinged. He’s put Bob in the hot seat to lie thoroughly right before the court hearing in New Delhi.

Bob always says outrageous stuff to get himself worked up. It helps him to lie more convincingly to himself.

All we had to do last time was build a Shugden Monastery in Bloomingtonto get his attention.

He came running to destroy the Shugden Sangha with the full force of the Kalachakra.

Just like a Hungry Ghost with an obsession!

We’ve definitely got Fred’s attention and he’s ticked off.

That’s good!

Now if we can only keep him going until he gets flustered.

He’s prone to go off the deep end about this issue.

Good now they’ll look like lunatics.

It’s called turning the tables.

All we need do is let them fall into their own bed of lies.

Moment Of Truth!

Dalia lama looked through the National News tonight and said, “I will not stop Tibetans from expressing their religious freedom. I am freedom man.”

I almost lost my dinner with this absurd and untruthful statement.

A man in robes,lying is not a monk, nor a lama.

It is enough for any of us to know, that real danger is here.

The bigger they are, the harder or farther they fall.

So, I am going to be listening for a big thump.

I feel happy that the Protector is bringing on the Sun Shine, and it’s never darker than before the dawn.

We’ve been “Watchers For The Dawn’, for a long time.

I think I see a beam of light shine forth in the dawn of morning first light.

I think that the Masters await until the stream clears and runs clean.

Giving us just enough time to prepare.

This man has one major agenda, and that is to Destroy The Teachings That Dorje Shugden Protects and The Lama Chopa Guru Lineages with Single Pointedness of mind.

This is what Dalia lama is doing.

One Dream, One World, One Master, which he aspires to be.

He is not mincing words or hesitating for even one second to accomplish his obsession to destroy all traces of Dorje Shugden from this world.

We must defend ourselves.

It is not surprising that the Dalia lama’s clique of rich actors choose to attempt to ruin one of the few events that the world celebrates in concord together.

The individual spirit’s power to unite us by their victories.

We share with enthusiasm and bask in the light of their achievements.

The Olympics began in the cradle of western democracy principles and ideals. Tibetan never experienced any thing remotely resembling democracy under the 14 Dalia lamas over the last 400 years.

The Dalia lineage devised a Medieval slave_serf class structure that rode on the backs of the Tibetan people for far too long. He called in the Mongolian calvary to force all the different school under his control by force and became the Supreme Dictator of Tibet, similar to the modern communist state of North Korea

It was Radio Free Tibet,that announced the location of the recently reincarnation of the Panchen lama in 1991.

The Chinese authorities picked him up in a matter of hours.

The Panchen lama is of equal authority as the DL.

It was the PRC that liberated the people of Tibet.

This Dalia lama is no different now after 49 years, than his predecessors.

Only a month before he incited the rioting in Tibet.

The Dalia lama threw out a 350 year old respected order of the The Tibetan Mahayana Gulug lineage of Dorje Shugden into the streets of India. Thousands of the clergy are now confronted by Tibetan Vigilante goons that stated they will harass them out of the Tibetan Colonies in India.

Why?

He wears two mantles of authority that tread daily on our Founding Father’s Principles of Equality and Freedom of Speech and Religion.

He does not adhere to our Bill Of Rights.

Nor would he know what to do with our rights inside his government in exile.

The western news reporting is as blind to the history of the Dalia lama as are the Free Tibet people are. Free to go back to a free Tibet that never existed except as a despot’s medieval time warp.

Democracy is not the Free Tibet the Dalia lama strives to emulate.

He is free to glory in his own emulation of himself.

Not the values of the American Founding Fathers Belief In Equality. Which he, Bob Thurman and his side kick, Richard Gere have betrayed.

We need to address whomever our direct Masters or Teachers and seek their immediate input and advice on dealing with this looming crisis in the Colonies.

If we in the west contemplate inflation and shortages and depressions. We can only imagine the stress that is arising on the Indian Sub Continent with food and fuel shortages with unfavorable crop yields anticipated, due to drought.

We might consider that the additional stress the Dalia lama has placed upon the local economy by his erratic and tenacious behavior towards his own people.

It is clear that many people are emotionally charged and flailing and thrashing blindly against anyone the Dalia lama scorns. Which includes the Chinese and Dorje Shugden Devotees.

Acting in unison will help to bring about the desired results for this witch hunt implemented by the mind of a backward medieval dictatorial Potentate.

Or shall we do as before and simple practice our Dharma in quiet, and maybe nobody will notice us and leave us alone.

It hasn’t worked before and there is no reason to think it will resolve itself so easily this time.

Get off your pillows, stand up and ask yourself and others.What can I do?

Now in this moment and the next.

Your Protector needs you to act as he directs each and every one of us in our audiences with him.You might be in for the ride of your life.

Protetor Power is an overwhelmingly out of the body experience in real time.

All we need to do is say Yes! I will, and I can do whatever it is you need for me to do, right now.

Enlightenment is like that. The Now is all there is, so let’s start acting like our Brothers and Sisters for those that need our help now.

Who else will , if we do not.

Now the brothers India share the tale of darkness and despair of Vigilantes,who have sworn to bring us to an end.

So unite us, Love is all you need.

I am glad my words have been of some comfort and if it is any more help please know that you are not alone. With the way things are going I am sure you will not be the last.

Fortunately, I am very familiar with Thom Canada as a spiritual warrior who has inspired people like me, to shatter the silence of fear and clamorously defend our precious lineage. He has helped unveil the man behind the curtain so we can see for ourselves the nature of deceit and destruction handed out by the DL. He has made every sacrifice in the effort to make sure that freedom is near. I will let others fill you in on the history if they want, I do not think that is my business. What matters to me is his actions carried out on behalf of our great Protector, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden.

ar with the workings of the DL and his administration. They do not operate ethically and morally.I have witnessed many great lamas, members of the Sangha and simple lay people go through the same types of persecution. In feudal Tibet the punishment of being excommunicated and ostracized were reserved for those who were the greatest threats. This mentality is carried on to this day.The only difference is that Tibet does not have a land to banish us from so the tactics of splitting and isolation from the community are now used. The DL and his administration still live in the dark ages yet present themselves as following Buddhist principles to the world and speak of peace. Thinking people who come in contact with this system recognize it and see fault in it. We do a service to our fellow human beings when we bring this to light.

, I am glad to see that u have had contact with several great masters of our lineage. In times like this I have found solace in the teachings and words of advice from our great lineage masters for they continue to guide me out of this difficult and trying time of afflictions and the impermanent reality of existence.

Your contributions to the Buddha Dharma thus far will continue to help people long after we’re gone.In some ways the hardships you have endured may not have been in vain.It could have helped clear or alleviate the obstacles and negative karma for the pure gelug tradition to flourish in the west.I applaud you for your willingness to keep an open mind and generous heart to possibly continue helping our brethren in the near future despite your bitter experiences with Tibetans. Pls know that there are still many people who see your good nature, your pure motivation, your unwavering faith and passion for Dorje Shugden and unquestionable willingness to help. This speaks to the kind of person you are. Many tend to misunderstand your passion for anger or scorn.

Thom Canada is a spiritual warrior who has inspired people like me to shatter the silence of fear and clamorously defend our precious lineage. He has helped unveil the man behind the curtain so we can see for ourselves the nature of deceit and destruction handed out by the DL. He has made every sacrifice in the effort to make sure that freedom is near. I will let others fill you in on the history if they want, I do not think that is my business. What matters to me is his actions carried out on behalf of our great Protector, Gyelchen Dorje Shugden.

Rainlute

Geronimo
12 September 2008 at 19:44

Letting Daylight into Magic

The Life and Times of Dorje Shugden

Stephen Batchelor

The so-called Drakpa Gyaltsen pretends to be a sublime being

But since this interfering spirit and creature of distorted prayers

Is harming everything, both dharma and sentient beings,

Do not support, protect or give him shelter, but grind him to dust.

-- The Fifth Dalai Lama

Praise to you, violent god of the Yellow Hat teachings,

Who reduces to particles of dust

Great beings, high officials and ordinary people

Who pollute and corrupt the Geluk doctrine.

-- From ?Praise to Dorje Shugden? quoted by Zemey Rinpoche

?A wrathful deity,? announced the London Independent with barely concealed irony on Monday 17 February, 1997 ?is the main suspect for three murders in Dharamsala, the Himalayan ?capital? of Tibet?s government-in-exile.? Two weeks earlier Gen Lobsang Gyatso, the principal of the Buddhist School of Dialectics, and two students had been stabbed to death. Eight months later, despite exhaustive investigations by the Indian police, the case is still unresolved. Although arrest warrants for two suspects have been issued, the police believe they have gone to ground either in Nepal or Tibet. Interpol has been called in to help find them.

On Saturday 6 July, 1996, another British newspaper, the Guardian, had carried a front-page story under the heading: ?Smear campaign sparks safety fears over Dalai Lama?s UK visit.? The article described demonstrations on the streets of London where hundreds of British Buddhists ?chanted anti-Dalai Lama slogans and carried placards saying ?Your smiles charm, your actions harm.?? The Nobel Peace Laureate was accused by an organisation called the Shugden Supporters Community of being ?a ruthless dictator? and ?an oppressor of religious freedom.?

These tragic and bewildering events have brought to the attention of the world a long-standing, arcane feud within the Tibetan Buddhist community that centers around the protector god Dorje Shugden. While feeding the West?s seemingly insatiable fascination with all things Tibetan, the murders and demonstrations have exposed a dark and troubling underside of a tradition often seen as a beacon of wisdom and compassion in a spiritually confused world. Even if it turns out that the killings were part of a Chinese campaign to intensify discord in the Tibetan community in exile, the fact remains that Beijing has been able to exploit a bitter dispute that the Dalai Lama and his supporters such as Gen Lobsang Gyatso have so far been powerless to resolve.

To understand the complex origins of this dispute, it is necessary not only to trace an outline of Tibetan history since the 17th century, but also to grasp some of the doctrinal and philosophical issues that have divided Tibetans since Buddhism was established in the 8th century.

*

On the 28th day of the seventh lunar month of 1642, the Fifth Dalai Lama had a dream of two Nyingma lamas giving him an initiation in a chapel of his palace at Drepung Monastery. One of the lamas handed him a ritual dagger (phur ba) and at that very moment he had the feeling of being spied on through a window by monks of his own Geluk order. He reflected that if the Geluk monks criticized him for receiving teachings from the Nyingma lamas, he would stab them with the dagger. He rushed out to confront them, but they already seemed subdued. He then woke up.

Earlier the same year, the twenty-six year old Dalai Lama had been conferred with supreme authority over all Tibet by the Mongol Gushri Khan, thus inaugurating the dynasty of the Dalai Lamas. This was achieved when the armies of the Mongol Khan defeated the King of Tsang, the backer of the Dalai Lama?s chief rival for power in Tibet: the Karmapa -- a senior lama of the Kagyu order. While this military victory ended years of civil conflict in Tibet and unified the country under the Geluk order, it also exposed tensions among the Gelukpas themselves -- already hinted at in the Dalai Lama?s dream three months later.

The Geluk tradition had been founded more than two hundred years earlier by the remarkable monk, scholar and yogin Tsongkhapa, who drew from all Tibetan Buddhist traditions of his time to create a compelling new synthesis of doctrine, ethics, philosophy and practice. The first Dalai Lama was a leading disciple of Tsongkhapa, and as the influence of the Gelukpas grew steadily over the next two centuries, the Dalai Lamas emerged as important spiritual figures within the school. When the fifth in the line became head of the Tibetan state, the institution of the Dalai Lama suddenly assumed unprecedented political power.

Although the Fifth was a Geluk monk, as head of state he carried the mantle not only of Tsongkhapa?s reformed Buddhist order but also that of a thousand years of Tibetan history. This would have been particularly poignant for him, since he was born into a family whose ancestral home overlooked the tombs of the early Tibetan kings in the Chonggye Valley and who were still associated with the Nyingma tradition. The Nyingmapas (?Ancients?) had been instrumental in introducing Buddhism to Tibet at the time of those early kings and in first defining the buddhocratic nature of the state. Throughout his life the Dalai Lama maintained a strong allegiance to the Nyingma school (particularly the practice of Dzogchen) and a mystical rapport with its founder Padmasambhava, who appeared to him in dreams and visions.

The Dalai Lama?s assumption of this long and complex historical identity would not have sat easily with the ambitions of a Geluk hierarchy intent on creating a buddhocratic state founded explicitly on the teachings of Tsongkhapa. It seems that this conflict led to the death of the Fifth?s rival Drakpa Gyaltsen, shortly after the Dalai Lama?s return from a state visit to China (suggesting the possibility of a palace revolt during his prolonged absence). Thereafter, Dorje Shugden was recognized by those Gelukpas who opposed the Dalai Lama?s involvement with the Nyingma school as the reincarnation of Drakpa Gyaltsen, who had assumed the form of a wrathful protector of the purity of Tsongkhapa?s teachings. They also regarded him as an emanation of the bodhisattva Manjushri.

After the death of the Fifth Dalai Lama in 1682, the controversy between these factions of the Geluk school slips into the shadows and we hear only occasional references to Dorje Shugden for the next two hundred years. The Sixth Dalai Lama was unsuited to public office and was arrested and killed by the Mongols. After the Seventh Dalai Lama was returned to Lhasa in 1720 by the Manchus, the government of Tibet passed into the hands of a regency composed initially of powerful aristocrats and then, for 113 years, senior Geluk lamas. Of the six Dalai Lamas who lived during this period of regency, the last four died before the age of twenty-one, thus failing to assume leadership of Tibet for more than a year or so.

The Thirteenth Dalai Lama came to power at the age of nineteen in 1895. Having survived an assassination attempt (his former regent concealed deadly mantras in his boots), he found himself charged with the daunting task of leading Tibet into a rapidly changing world. He proved an able leader, who sought to introduce a modest program of reform only to be thwarted by aristocrats and senior lamas. He was also a keen practitioner of Nyingma teachings. He had several teachers from the Nyingma school, practiced with them in the Potala Palace, and wrote commentaries to the Nyingma texts of his predecessor the Fifth.

The Thirteenth?s openness to the Nyingmapa was in marked contrast to that of Pabongka Rinpoche, the most influential Geluk lama of the time, whose authority rivalled that of the Dalai Lama. Pabongka inherited the practice of Dorje Shugden from his mother?s family, and as a young man also received transmissions from Nyingma lamas. After a serious illness he became convinced that the disease was a sign from Shugden to stop practicing Nyingma teachings, which he did. Although he promoted the practice of Shugden, he was ordered by the Thirteenth to stop invoking the deity on the grounds that it was destroying Buddhism. Pabongka then promised ?in the core of my heart? never to propitiate Shugden again. He evidently changed his mind, though, and subsequently passed the practice on to his disciples.

The present Dalai Lama, born in 1935, was introduced to the practice of Dorje Shugden by his junior tutor Trijang Rinpoche, a leading disciple of Pabongka. This was a time of great political turmoil in Tibet. The reliability of the State Oracle Nechung had been thrown into doubt and some believed the government should switch its allegiance to the oracle representing Dorje Shugden. The Regent, Reting Rinpoche, was forced to resign, only to return to launch an unsuccessful coup in 1947. The Chinese Communists arrived in Lhasa in 1952. The Dalai Lama, his tutors and 100,000 Tibetans fled to India in 1959, possibly on the advice of the Shugden oracle.

In 1973 a senior Geluk lama called Zemey Rinpoche published an account of Dorje Shugden he had received orally from his teacher Trijang Rinpoche. This text recounts in detail the various calamities that have befallen monks and laypeople of the Geluk tradition who have practiced Nyingma teachings. Those mentioned include the last three Panchen Lamas, senior officials of the Thirteenth?s government, Reting Rinpoche and even Pabongka himself. In each case, the illness, torture or death incurred is claimed to be the result of having displeased Dorje Shugden. The publication of this material was condemned by the Dalai Lama, who was then engaged in Nyingma practices himself under the guidance of Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche. His views about Dorje Shugden began to shift and led to his first statements discouraging the practice in 1976.

Each time a Dalai Lama has come to hold effective political office, a controversy has erupted around Dorje Shugden. A similar pattern has repeated itself during the rules of the Fifth, Thirteenth and Fourteenth Dalai Lamas. This conflict has inevitably been articulated in the vivid, yet (to outsiders) bewildering language and imagery of Tibetan culture. It reflects a struggle between two opposing visions of how best to lead sentient beings to enlightenment, preserve the Buddha?s teaching, and maintain the integrity of the Tibetan state. Representatives of both sides have included wise, moral and saintly men, who have led exemplary Buddhist lives. Some, such as Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and Trijang Rinpoche, admired and respected each other. As with everything to do with Tibet, the line between religion and politics is blurred. The dispute over Dorje Shugden is neither an exclusively religious nor a fundamentally political one. It is both.

*

Who are these invisible beings that appear to Tibetan lamas in dreams and visions, speak through oracles, predict the future, inspire awe and terror, bless those who worship them and incur misfortune on those who don?t? The Tibetan term for such beings is lha. Lha means ?deity? or ?god.? Such gods are both Indian and Tibetan in origin and constitute a pantheon as complex and arcane as that of ancient Greece and Rome. Yet with the advent of Mahayana and Vajrayana Buddhism, there appears an altogether different kind of god. These are buddhas and bodhisattvas, awakened beings who have vowed to work ceaselessly and in myriad ways for the welfare of beings. While not mere gods -- who for all their powers are just another class of unawakened sentient being -- they assume the form of gods (lha?i rnam par shar ba) for the benefit of others.

Tibetan Buddhists regard these gods, whether of the unawakened or awakened variety, as conscious, autonomous beings, every bit as real as you or I. The Dalai Lama, who so successfully presents Buddhism in the Western media as rational, pragmatic and compatible with modern psychology and science, appears to believe in the power of these gods. In a statement issued in English by the Tibetan government in exile in 1996, he is quoted from a speech to an audience of Tibetans as saying: ?It has become fairly clear that Dolgyal (i.e. Shugden) is a spirit of the dark forces.?

The Dalai Lama is not speaking here as a modern religious leader trying to persuade some of his superstitious flock to relinquish an outdated world view. He is engaged in an emotive debate about whether a particular god is a powerful but deluded sentient being or a buddha who has assumed the form of a god. Such is the perceived power of Dorje Shugden that both Gelukpas who invoke him and Nyingmapas who fear him are told not even to let his name pass their lips. This atmosphere of secrecy and implicit danger serves to affirm for Tibetan Buddhists their view of an invisible polytheistic reality intersecting with the human world.

Although this worldview may be unfamiliar, it is not intrinsically stranger than that of Christians and other religious believers who lack the exotic prestige Tibetan lamas have for Westerners. The main difference between it and other religious worldviews is that Buddhists know all these gods to be empty of any inherent reality. Everything, they would say, is merely an appearance as ephemeral and insubstantial as a dream. Such statements have led some in the West to assume that the gods of Tibetan Buddhism are no more than archetypal symbols: they perform a psychological function in the process of spiritual transformation, but only the naive would say they represent beings independent of the practitioner?s own mind. Yet however useful this kind of Jungian interpretation may be, it is not how most Tibetan lamas understand the world they inhabit.

For gods to be empty of inherent existence does not mean that they cannot be autonomous beings capable of making choices and existing in their own heavenly realms. In this sense they are no different from humans, who are likewise empty but perfectly capable of making decisions and living their own unique and fallible lives. The doctrine of emptiness only teaches us to see ourselves and the world in a way that frees us from the reification and egoism that generate anguish. To say the world is empty neither affirms nor denies the claims of any cosmological theory, be it that of ancient India or modern astrophysics.

To establish an authentic Buddhist state on the basis of this vision, however, requires ensuring that a correct view of emptiness be upheld by those in power. Such responsibility would be a necessary outcome of the bodhisattva?s compassionate resolve. For this reason, the Fifth Dalai Lama?s government proscribed the teachings of the Jonangpa school, who taught that emptiness implied a transcendent absolute reality which inherently exists (gzhan stong). Texts of the school were confiscated and its monasteries turned over to the Gelukpa. It seems other factions in the Geluk order would have liked to have taken similar measures against the Nyingma school.

In order to honor the historical heritage of Tibet, to affirm unity among the diverse communities of the Tibetan nation, even to be true to their own spiritual intuitions, one can understand why the Dalai Lamas would tolerate and even embrace Nyingma views. But however justified this might be in personal or political terms, it should not obscure the real and potentially divisive philosophical and doctrinal differences that exist between the Nyingma and Geluk ideologies.

The Nyingma teaching of Dzogchen regards awareness (rig pa) as the innate self-cognizant foundation of both samsara and nirvana. Rig pa is the intrinsic, uncontrived nature of mind, which a Dzogchen master is capable of directly pointing out to his students. For the Nyingmapa Dzogchen represents the very apogee of what the Buddha taught, whereas Tsongkhapa?s view of emptiness as just a negation (med ?gag) of inherent existence, implying no transcendent reality, verges on nihilism.

For the Gelukpas, though, Dzogchen succumbs to the opposite extreme: that of delusively clinging to something permanent and self-existent as the basis of reality. They see Dzogchen as a return to the Hindu ideas that Buddhists resisted in India, and a residue of the Chan (Zen) doctrine of Hvashang Mahayana, proscribed at the time of the early kings. Moreover, some Kagyu and Nyingma teachers of the Rime (?Impartial?) revival movement in Eastern Tibet in the 19th century even began to promote a synthesis between the forbidden Jonangpa philosophy and the practice of Dzogchen.

For the followers of Shugden this is not an obscure metaphysical disagreement, but a life and death struggle for truth in which the destiny of all sentient beings is at stake. The bodhisattva vow, taken by every Tibetan Buddhist, is a commitment to lead all beings to the end of anguish and the realization of buddhahood. Following Tsongkhapa, the Gelukpas maintain that the only way to achieve this is to understand non-conceptually that nothing whatsoever inherently exists. Any residue, however subtle, of an attachment to inherent existence works against the bodhisattva?s aim and perpetuates the very anguish he or she seeks to dispel.

Moreover, protectors such as Dorje Shugden exert an enormous power over the minds of Tibetan Buddhists--be they erudite lamas, simple Bhutanese peasants or educated Westerners. While lamas teach that the taking of refuge in the Buddha, Dharma and Sangha is the only protection a Buddhist requires, they invariably supplement this with initiations into and practices of a range of protector gods. After all, the ?Land of Snows? could be a harsh and frightening place. Tibetans lived in an awesome, sparsely inhabited landscape with a fierce climate, psychically populated by numerous spirits, demons and gods. The very survival of communities required a powerful sense of family, tribal and religious loyalty. In a modern, psychological sense, Dorje Shugden could be seen as the personification of a specific set of fears and loyalties in the form of a god. But for Tibetan Buddhists he is not just a metaphor; he is a real, living god/buddha whose displeasure can wreak havoc on human beings.

At a certain point in their practice, those who rely on Dorje Shugden will ritually ?entrust their lives? (srog gtad) to him. This is not a step taken lightly. When the present Dalai Lama (who chose not to take this step himself) requests people to renounce Shugden, he both challenges a deeply felt loyalty and raises the possibility of frightful retribution. ?Nothing will happen,? he has had to reassure Tibetans. ?I will face the challenge.... No harm will befall you.?

Although some Gelukpas have heeded his advice, others have not. For those loyal to Dorje Shugden could well believe that the misfortunes to have befallen the institution of the Dalai Lama, even the tragedy of Tibet in the 20th century, are all due to a failure to heed the advice of their protector who ?reduces to particles of dust great beings, high officials and ordinary people who pollute and corrupt the Geluk doctrine.? For the Dalai Lama to denounce Dorje Shugden may confirm for them that he is simply part of the problem.

*

Speaking of the British monarchy more than a hundred years ago, Walter Bagehot warned of ?letting daylight into magic.? This happens today as the media peer into events that formerly only a handful of lamas and their advisors would have been privy to. The arcane wrangling and intrigue surrounding the reincarnations of the Karmapa and the Panchen Lama are disseminated through newspapers, web sites, television and radio within hours of having taken place, while grisly murders in Dharamsala lead to Dorje Shugden being dissected on the pages of Newsweek. The Dalai Lama in particular has used the media to great effect, but the fascination he has both drawn upon and stimulated now threatens to turn the magic of Tibet into mere spectacle.

If we strip away the exotic veneer of this Tibetan Buddhist dispute, we are confronted with questions which concern the very nature of the dharma and its practice. In the West we are fond of portraying Buddhism as a tolerant, rational, non-dogmatic and open-minded tradition. But how much is this the result of liberal Western(ized) intellectuals seeking to construct an image of Buddhism that simply confirms their own prejudices and desires?

Historically, Buddhists everywhere have tended not to exhibit the pluralist, postmodern values we might imagine them to possess. All Buddhist traditions make claims to truth, and when those claims have contradicted one another, then passionate, prolonged, even violent disputes have ensued. All the more so is this the case in the polytheistic buddhocracy of Tibet, where a very human dispute between different doctrinal camps has also inevitably been a struggle among the gods. Each side has invoked its own invisible beings for blessing and protection, summoned its own oracles for guidance from them, and been convinced that it was acting out of compassion for the welfare of all beings. Tibetan lamas take their disputes seriously not merely because of short-term political gain. Many of them act out of deep and sincere passion for what they hold to be true.

Yet history also teaches us that Buddhism possesses a remarkable capacity to reimagine itself in response to the challenges posed by new historical and cultural situations. Its protean forms are testimony to the survival of a way of life that has travelled throughout Asia and is now taking its tentative first steps in America and Europe. If it is to survive, it will have to find a way of preserving the heartfelt, single-minded commitment at its core within multicultural societies that reject the totalizing and potentially repressive demands of any single claim to truth.

First Published in Tricycle: The Buddhist Review. Vol. 7, no. 3. New York: Spring 1998.

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 22:20

Tibetan Religion and Politics

Phayul[Saturday, September 13, 2008 12:16]

Samten G. Karmay

Karmay, Samten Gyaltsen

The Tibetans prided themselves on what they believed to be a unique tradition, the "combination of religion and politics" (chosi zungdrel). The concept itself goes a long way back in Tibet's history. However, many other countries still have similar traditions. It was only at the beginning of the 20th century that countries like France and Japan began to have the legislation for the separation of church and state that gave birth to the idea of practicing religion as a personal belief not regulated by the state. The process of secularization has been slow, but it is moving inexorably forward. This state secularism is the modern trend in many countries the world over.

It was startling to see a political meeting that took place in Dharamsala on May 3-4 2008 and broadcast on YouTube. It was attended by the heads of all the Tibetan religious sects and was presided over by HH the Dalai Lama. One of the topics of the discussion was the tulku issue, the reincarnated lamas, but the outcome of the discussion has not been reported. Not a single layman took part in the gathering not to mention any women. One wondered what happened to the famous democratization of the exiled Tibetan community in India.

The separation of church and state does not imply abandoning the practice of the established religion. Far from it, it secures freedom of religious exercise and therefore the right of personal choice whether one wishes to practice a religion or not. Furthermore it establishes the neutrality of the state as far as the religious denominations are concerned. In the case of Tibet there would be no preferential status whether it is the Bon, Nyingma, Sakya, Kagyu or Gelug traditions or even the Tibetan Moslems and Christians. What the "separation" does imply, however, is the government and religious institutions being kept independent from one and another and not combined as in the Tibetan political tradition.

A secular state is therefore neutral when it deals with religion by not supporting or opposing any particular sect nor does it give any preferential treatment for a citizen who belongs to a particular religion.

Buddhism as a state religion

Buddhism became the state religion of Tibet in the reign of the emperor Tri Song Detsen (742-797) and it remained so till the end of the Pugyal Dynasty in 941 AD. During the imperial period the emperors were the supreme heads of the state and the emperors were entirely laymen. The fact that Buddhism was the state religion did not affect the personal choice of faith among its members and in the country. However, the imperial government did subsidize Buddhist establishments such as building temples and contributing to their maintenance and this was considered to be meritorious work.

There were other periods during which time a lay government was in power in Tibet, for example, during the Tsang Desi's regime (c.1600-1642) which was most remarkable in its attempt to revive the national glory of the lay government of the imperial period.

The beginning of theocracy

However, in 1642 the Tsang Desi's government was toppled by the combined forces of Tibetans and Mongols at the instigation of the Gelug sect which effectively empowered the Fifth Dalai Lama (1617-1685), as the head of state. He had been, until 1642, merely the abbot of Drepung Monastery. A new era of theocracy was ushered in with the total supremacy of the clergy and the subordination of laymen to it. At the time of the Sakya and Pakmotu administrations from the 13th to the 15th centuries there were of course elements of theocratic development, but from 1642 the Ganden Potrang, the official seat of the government in Drepung Monastery, came to symbolize the supreme power in both the theory and practice of a theocratic government. This was indeed a political triumph that Buddhism had never known in its history in Tibet.

The term "theocracy" is normally defined as a form of government in which a 'god' or 'deity' is recognized as the supreme ruler. In Tibet's case the Dalai Lamas are considered as the manifestation of the Buddhist deity of compassion. In this theocratic system the head of the state was not only the political leader of the people, but also their spiritual master. In other words, the whole population was subjected and put in the position of spiritual disciple to the master. Within the context of this essentially religious bond no devotee would ever dream of opposing the view of the master, because that would be tantamount to breaking the sacred relationship between the master and the disciple. How does this fit with the discussion of democracy among the Tibetans in exile for whom HH the Dalai Lama is the political leader, but who nonetheless bestows on them the Kalachakra initiation?

Since the head of the state was a "monk-king" (domtsun gyalpo) the entire manner of raising children was immersed in religious education from a very young age without it ever being realized where this was going to lead. In such a system there was no personal choice of the religion that an individual wished to practice. One became aware of what one was subjected to only when one reached a mature age. In other words the faith was simply imposed by the state. The idea of the right of personal choice of one's own faith was therefore totally unknown and in modern terms denied. Important and even enlightening as this religious education might be, it had the undesirable effect of barring the entire population from contact with any kind of progressive or modern education over the last three hundred and sixty years. It is no wonder that the outspoken French socialist Minister of Culture, Claude Allègre, once remarked that he had never come across a Tibetan who was a biologist, archeologist, mathematician or physicist.

An incarnate Lama as ruler

The head of the state in Tibet, however, was never meant to be a tulku, a reincarnate lama. This status was inherited incidentally through the Fifth Dalai Lama when he was ushered in as the leader of the country. The irony is that not only he himself was a reincarnate lama, but he also embarked on creating others, for example, the Panchen Lama Lobzang Yeshe (1663-1737), who was recognized as the tulku of Panchen Lama Lobzang Chogyen (1567-1662), in 1667, by the Fifth Dalai Lama. This initiated the rapid increase of the number of tulkus especially in the Gelug sect. Perhaps one does not need to raise the question as to whether this tulku system ever served the national interest of Tibet at all. It is high time for the Tibetans to learn lessons from the checkered history of the tulku system that has caused so much political instability and disunity for Tibet.

In the 20th century alone, national unity completely broke down when one lama was set against the other as the pawns of great powers such as the Manchus, British India, the Russian Empire, the Guomintang government and now the Communist Party of China. In general, throughout the history of Tibet the tulku institution has invariably been the cause of schism, political intrigue and sectarian squabbles. Because of the tulku tradition we have now two Panchen Lamas and two Karmapas. Are we going to have two Dalai Lamas?

Recently the Religious Affairs Department of the Chinese government implemented a new law called "Order no. 5", containing 14 articles on "Management Measures for the Reincarnation of 'Living Buddhas' in Tibetan Buddhism". The Chinese government's strict control over tulku recognition further proves how politically vulnerable this system is and to what extent the tulku tradition can be exploited for political ends by an occupying power against the interests of the Tibetan people.

HH the 14th Dalai Lama has already announced that he will have no political role if "genuine autonomy" is established in Tibet. However, I believe that the Dalai Lama institution should be maintained if the majority of the Tibetan people agree upon it. Thus, in a future constitution this one should be the only incarnation in the country, and without any political prerogative. Ganden Monastery would be an ideal residence for the future Dalai Lamas if they wish to be a real "simple monk".

In the interview given to Euronews (August 11, 2008) HH the 14th Dalai Lama stated, I quote: "The Dalai Lama's rule is now outdated." If this is indeed the case, and I believe it to be so. it is desirable for the Tibetan people start to planning for the future with his help. He is the only one who has such long term world-wide experience and whose authority is unrivaled amongst Tibetan leaders. A decisive action is needed to be taken and very urgently. If he wishes he can assist the Tibetans in sorting out the theocratic conundrum in order to finally leave an unambiguous political legacy in the form of a total separation of religion and politics.

Unless and until the Tibetan people come to comprehend the need for the separation of religion and state they will never be able to create a healthy and unified community under a truly democratically elected leader.

They do not need to look far a field for a good example of this. In 2008 Bhutan, the Himalayan kingdom, very successfully introduced a parliamentary democratic system. Although the Kagyu sect is the official religion of state as represented by the Zhung Datsang, this was left aside and did not play any role in the election. Its new constitution states "It shall be the responsibility of religious institutions and personalities to promote the spiritual heritage of the country while also ensuring that religion remains separate from politics in Bhutan.."(article 3.3, www.judiciary.gov.bt)

Of course it appears inconceivable or even sacrilegious to break the taboo on the separation of religion and state for the Tibetans, but we can no longer hide our heads in the sand.

Secularism, sectarianism

In an interview given in Tokyo, April 2008, HH the Dalai Lama stated that he favoured in fact "secularism". The reason he gave was that "secularism" has no room for "sectarianism". Indeed Tibetan Buddhism has often been plagued by sectarian strife and this is still continuing in spite of HH the Dalai Lama's strenuous efforts to discourage and condemn it. It is precisely because of sectarianism that he has himself abandoned the cult of the deity Shugden, as well as forbidding it in all religious institutions in the exiled community. The main reason for forsaking this cult is that it engenders a sense of the superiority on the part of the Geluk clergy and it acts as an anathema to the other sects. It is not only a question of spirit-worship as people tend to claim when explaining why the cult has been forbidden.

A secularization of the exiled community should contribute towards solving the unending sectarian problems and lead to true unity amongst the Tibetan people, without any further religious interference in the political domain.

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 22:47

Is there any evidence that the Tibetan Government in Exile tells lies? Have a look for yourself. Below is a quote from Tashi Wangdi (the Dalai Lama’s representitive) speaking about the ban on Dorje Shugden. His statements are recorded on video.

Tashi Wangdi (speaking to the press): “I think there is a lot of misunderstanding. I was trying to explain that there is no ban.“

Quotes from the Dalai Lama and Samdhong Lobsang Tenzin regarding the ban on Dorje Shugden also recorded on video.

Dalai Lama: “I began this ban to continue the Fifth Dalai Lama’s legacy, I started this by myself and I have to continue, and carry it to the end. Understood?

Dalai Lama: “Some of you are not serious, but this is wrong. You, staff members, pretend not to hear anything, and you let time go by. You think it is better that we don’t take action against people.”

Dalai Lama: “In Sera Je monastery some students voluntarily took responsibly and are working on enforcing the ban. This is very good.”

Samdhong Lobsang Tenzin (prime minister of exile government): “On this topic, we have to take some clear action. Otherwise, if we don’t act because we think that this ban is going to create a lot of different problems in our society, and fearing segregation within our society—then I think this is wrong.”

Bob Thurman is really packing the can with his stuff!

Geronimo
13 September 2008 at 22:54

Confederation of Shambala Warriors!

Unite and Fight All Forms of Tyranny!

Convene The Gathering Force Of Dorje Shugden Warriors to Defend The Dharmapala’s Lineage!

All Voices in Concord as One!

The Enemy Does Not Delay for One Minute to Place Us In Our Graves!

Come Together Now, Before It Is Too Late!

Geronimo
14 September 2008 at 02:37

Michael Parenti stated the following, citing Erik Curren from his book “The Buddha’s Not Smiling”:

“For hundreds of years competing Tibetan Buddhist sects engaged in bitterly violent clashes and summary executions. In 1660, the 5th Dalai Lama was faced with a rebellion in Tsang province, the stronghold of the rival Kagyu sect with its high lama known as the Karmapa. The 5th Dalai Lama called for harsh retribution against the rebels, directing the Mongol army to obliterate the male and female lines, and the offspring too “like eggs smashed against rocks…. In short, annihilate any traces of them, even their names.”

This is why it is called_”HIS-STORY”.

The Scribes work over time to rewrite history and proclaim they have been modernizing Tibet ever since the 5th Dalia lama “ACCIDENTALLY”, became the Dictator of Tibet.

We can take pride that the Founding Father of The United States Of America, did, what even a holy lama could not, has not and will never give up and or willingly relenquish power to the People. If he could,he would have by now. His lies multiply with all the others telling his lies in one form or another. He lies and people die.

George Washington stepped down, and gave up the power to rule a nation as Dictator or King.

He proved his principles.

Unlike the duplicitious, deceiving lying nature of the Dalia lama lineage, all of whom have held onto their power through Death till lBirth.

It is the “Best Scam_Con Game”, still going on for over 400 years.

shaza
14 September 2008 at 10:40

Hi Geronimo,

About rewritten history... i guess this is something more recent...

1) what the Dalai Lama said in July, 2008, New York:

"in the late 60's I still practice it then I already started receiving teaching from Kuunu Lama Rinpoche [on] Shantideva's text. Then he very much non-sectarian. He received many many different teachings from different traditions.So i want to receive one teaching, Nyingma Tradition, Nyingma sort of teaching from him. Firstly i asked Ling Rinpoche since I already received some teaching from him so now i want to receive Gyu Sangwa Nyingpo, Nyingma sort of text (translator jumps in: Tantra). Then Ling Rinpoche a little bit cautious because of this spirit. Although Ling Rinpoche never worshipped this spirit. He himself very very cautious about this spirit. Not like Trijang. Trijang is sort of very close [to] this spirit. However, as Ling Rinpoche recalls this story about a Gelug lama received teaching from Nyingma tradition then this spirit will destroy you. So Ling Rinpoche a little bit scared. (Laughter) So Ling Rinpoche advised me 'be careful, be careful'. He don't allow that. Therefore i failed to receive teaching from him."

2) what the Shugden websites creatively quote from the same speech:

' "...... to give me the transmission of the Sangwa-Nyingpo-Tantra. I consulted my teacher Ling Rinpoche about it, and he responded negatively, saying, there is a lot of discussion about it. Actually my teacher was afraid of Dolgyal (Dorje Shugden). Thus I lost my religious freedom." (HH Dalai Lama) '

and offers their sort of explanation:

"His Holiness blames the negative response received from his teacher Ling Rinpoche about taking the teaching of Sangwa-Nyingpo-Tantra to Dorje Shugden. There is in fact 'a lot of discussion' about this Tantra, but these discussions have nothing to do with Dorje Shugden whatsoever. Many great earlier Tibetan scholars, especially those with a precise knowledge of Sanskrit, such as master Jangchub Woe, translator Goe, translator Chak, great Sakya pandita, the great master Bhutoen, etc., have classified a number of Tibetan Tantras as lacking the authenticity of being original Indian Buddhist Tantras. These texts, including the Tantra in question, were classified separately. Kyabje Ling Rinpoche's comment that 'there are a lot of discussions about this Tantra' refers to these discussions of many earlier and later Tibetan scholars about the authenticity of the Sangwa-Nyingpo-Tantra.

Ling Rinpoche's answer has therefore nothing to do with protector Dorje Shugden. Ling Rinpoche neither had any reason to be afraid of the deity, nor did he have any reason to frighten His Holiness of such a deity. Unfortunately, the former Kyabje Ling Rinpoche is no longer among us, but many respectable and trusted disciples of Kyabje Ling Rinpoche are still living."

http://www.shugdensociety.info/HHsWordsEN.html

http://wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/dorjeshugden32.php

3) GKG's lame excuse 11 years ago:

"According to the information that I have received from authentic sources, when the Dalai Lama first began to engage in Nyingma practices, it was HH Ling Rinpoche who tried to discourage him, strongly advising him against these practices. This does not mean that HH Ling Rinpoche was saying that the Nyingma practices are not good, but he felt that it was an affront to the Gelugpas, indicating that their practice was not a complete path. Until that time the Dalai Lama had been pure Gelugpa, and now he was changing; this was not a good indication for the Gelug tradition. There is no criticism implied that Nyingma practice is not pure."

(Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, talk.religion.buddhism, 19 December 1997)

Which version is better?

Best

Shaza

SeekingClarity
14 September 2008 at 21:48

QUESTIONS FOR LUCY JAMES

Lucy

I only became aware of this thread some days after it opened so this is a somewhat belated response to your much earlier posts (posts 8-10).

You assert Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. However, are there not powerful arguments against the practice of Dorje Shugden being a legitimate Buddhist practice?

One argument made by critics of Dorje Shugden goes as follows. Buddha's teachings consist of sutra and tantra. Dorje Shugden is referred to neither in the sutras nor in the tantras, Therefore the Dorje Shugden practice is not valid from a Buddhist point of view. I have never come across a refutation of this argument by Dorje Shugden practitioners. I wonder if you know of one?

You state that

"For 400 years Dorje Shugden practitioners have made peaceful prayers to this Buddha...This is an unbroken tradition of prayer that has been passed down to us through generations of highly accomplished Buddhist masters up to the present day."

Your remarks seem to imply that there is an unbroken lineage of Dorje Shugden practice from the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyltsen to the present day. Lineage is held to be of very great importance in Tibetan Buddhism and the various lamas that make up a particular lineage are commonly listed to demonstrate a practice's validity. If you are suggesting there is an unbroken lineage of Dorje Shugden practice, are the lineage gurus listed anywhere? I have never seen such a listing.

You describe the Yellow Book as "superstitious claptrap". But, the descriptions of Dorje Shugden's actions set out both by Trijang and Phabongkha in the translations I have read, are very much in accordance with those in the Yellow Book. Are you therefore suggesting that the statements of both Trijang and Phabongka also amount to superstitious claptrap?

Best wishes

SC

Tenzin
18 September 2008 at 02:37

Here is a very interesting news article about the problem today:

http://citybeat.com/gyrobase/Content?oid=oid:146102

Lucy James
18 September 2008 at 22:28

Dear Seeking Clarity,

You said: Lucy

I only became aware of this thread some days after it opened so this is a somewhat belated response to your much earlier posts (posts 8-10).

You assert Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. However, are there not powerful arguments against the practice of Dorje Shugden being a legitimate Buddhist practice?

LJ: Thank you for your questions, it's good to explore these issues deeply.

SC: (1) One argument made by critics of Dorje Shugden goes as follows. Buddha's teachings consist of sutra and tantra. Dorje Shugden is referred to neither in the sutras nor in the tantras, Therefore the Dorje Shugden practice is not valid from a Buddhist point of view. I have never come across a refutation of this argument by Dorje Shugden practitioners. I wonder if you know of one?

LJ: There are many Buddhist practices that are not referred to in the Sutras and Tantras but that arose due to enlightened activity after Buddha's passing. For example, the Guru yoga of Je Tsongkhapa is not included in the Sutras and Tantras, but many practitioners have attained realizations through practising it. The close lineage of the Mahamudra instructions that are practised by Tsongkhapa's disciples are also not included in the Sutras and Tantras of Buddha Shakyamuni and Buddha Vajradhara, yet they were passed down from Manjushri directly to Je Tsongkhapa and then to a succession of lineage Gurus to the present day. Through practising these instructions, many of these Gurus attained enlightenment in three years and three months.

However, it's not just Je Tsongkhapa's tradition that relies on Buddhist practices that were not originally taught by Buddha Shakyamuni. The Nyingma (and Sakya) traditions rely upon Padmasambhava or Guru Rinpoche, whose practice is not included in the original Sutras and Tantras, including his mantra. Nyingmapas also rely on “termas” or “hidden treasure texts” that were not taught directly by Buddha, and the practice of Dzogchen that is very popular these days was also not taught by Buddha Shakyamuni, yet it is found to be effective by those who practise it.

As in the expression, “the proof of the pudding is in the eating”, we can know if a practice is authentic if the meaning of its content can be traced to the Sutras and Tantras (such as is the case with Lama Chopa or Offering to the Spiritual Guide) and if, by relying on it with faith, we receive realizations. The efficacy and authenticity of Dorje Shugden practice is well known to those who rely upon it, including a huge number of great and “saintly” (as Stephen Batchelor puts it) Gelugpa Lamas.

SC: (2) You state that "For 400 years Dorje Shugden practitioners have made peaceful prayers to this Buddha...This is an unbroken tradition of prayer that has been passed down to us through generations of highly accomplished Buddhist masters up to the present day."

Your remarks seem to imply that there is an unbroken lineage of Dorje Shugden practice from the time of Tulku Drakpa Gyltsen to the present day. Lineage is held to be of very great importance in Tibetan Buddhism and the various lamas that make up a particular lineage are commonly listed to demonstrate a practice's validity. If you are suggesting there is an unbroken lineage of Dorje Shugden practice, are the lineage gurus listed anywhere? I have never seen such a listing.

LJ: Gelugpas and Sakyas have been relying upon Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector for four hundred years. The Fifth Dalai Lama established the Temple of Trode Kangsar for him, wrote a praise to him and made a statue of him with his own hands. The Eleventh Dalai Lama enthroned Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Potector of the Ganden tradition and this tradition has continued until the present day.

Obviously the practice of relying on the Wisdom Buddha in the form of Dorje Shugden has been passed down through the generations because it still exists intact today, but I don't have the names of the Teachers who transmitted it. Perhaps they are the Gelug lineage Gurus from the time of Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen. If anyone is reading this and would like to contribute more accurate historical information, it would be appreciated.

As I understand it, the present close lineage practice of Dorje Shugden that we rely upon was given to Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche by Dorje Shugden himself in Tushita Pure Land. He then passed it on to Phabongkha Dechen Nyingpo, who passed it on to Trijang Dorjechang Losang Yeshe, who passed it on to his disciples, including Trijang Dorjechang, Zong Rinpoche, Tomo Geshe, and others, including my own Spiritual Guide Geshe Kelsang Gyatso Rinpoche. It is from these precious Lamas that we have received the lineage of instruction.

If it seems difficult to accept that these instructions come from Tushita Pure Land, we can look to the tradition of teaching the texts of Maitreya -- such as 'Sublime Continuum of the Great Vehicle' and 'Ornament for Clear Realizations' -- which were given to Asanga by Maitreya in Tushita. This is accepted by faithful Buddhist scholars, so in reality there's nothing strange in asserting this.

Just as Je Tsongkhapa received the instructions on the Guru yoga of Je Tsongkhapa and the close lineage of the Mahamudra directly from Manjushri, so Tagpo Kelsang Khedrub Rinpoche received the instructions on Dorje Shugden practice directly from Dorje Shugden. Both these practices are taught in the Gelugpa tradition by great Masters who are themselves living embodiments of the benefits of relying on these practices, so there is no need to doubt them.

SC: (3) You describe the Yellow Book as "superstitious claptrap". But, the descriptions of Dorje Shugden's actions set out both by Trijang and Phabongkha in the translations I have read, are very much in accordance with those in the Yellow Book. Are you therefore suggesting that the statements of both Trijang and Phabongka also amount to superstitious claptrap?

LJ: (To set this in context, I was answering a previous poster: “Two words about Dorje Shugden and why he was denounced: "Yellow Book"”)

The superstition comes from how the book is read. If you take the stories of the Yellow Book too literally, they can make you overly superstitious – witness Namkhai Norbu advising his students to wear protection cords and wave mudras at Dorje Shugden practitioners to protect themselves.

Also, on E-Sangha, some posters were recently making the point that if you keep the book 'Heart Jewel' written by Geshe Kelsang, which contains the practice of Dorje Shugden, you are encouraging the spirit to hang around you and so it would be best to get rid of it.

These views are just as sectarian as claiming that Dorje Shugden will harm you if you even touch a Nyingma text. In some Tibetan Buddhists' minds, Dorje Shugden is the modern day equivalent of the bogey man. Although such views seem laughably superstitious, it is possible that a misunderstanding or literal reading of the Yellow Book can lead to them, which is why it does more harm than good.

Personally I think the confusion over the Yellow Book comes from failing to understand that these kinds of stories are just that -- stories. Every religion has stories and parables that are not intended to be taken literally but designed to help the reader or listener lead a better life. Did Jonah really set up his home in a whale's stomach? Was Sarah really turned to a pillar of salt when she turned to look back at her town? If a Dorje Shugden practitioner stubs his toe when he picks up a Dzogchen text, is that really because he is being “punished”? Buddhas don’t work that way. Our suffering comes from our own karma.

I don’t subscribe to the Yellow Book and nor does my teacher Geshe Kelsang. The only person who keeps bringing it up is the Dalai Lama as a justification for banning the practice of Dorje Shugden and criticizing Gelugpa “sectarianism”.

Why did Zemey Rinpoche write it? I don’t know. Perhaps as a warning, Tibetan-style, to the Dalai Lama and other Gelugpa teachers not to try to mix Je Tsongkhapa's teachings with other traditions, thereby destroying the special qualities of both. The 14th Dalai Lama had already attempted to merge the different schools or sects of Buddhism together in 1961 but was blocked by the Thirteen Tibetan Settlements led by the 16th Kamarpa.

Anyway, if it was intended as a warning, it clearly has backfired as the Dalai Lama has gone ahead and mixed the traditions together anyway. He has every right to do that for himself, but not to impose his views on everyone else in the political heavy-handed way that he is doing. This, to me, is a far greater sectarian crime than writing a yellow book.

SeekingClarity
24 September 2008 at 15:50

Hi Lucy

Absolutely agree that it’s important to explore these issues deeply and many thanks for taking the time to give such a full response. Much appreciated. Sorry it’s taken a while to reply.

In the spirit of exploring these deeply, I set out a detailed response to your comments on the Yellow book and on the view of Shugden held by Sakyas. I’d have liked to respond to all your comments post but insufficient time, I’m afraid. Hopefully, will do so in the near future.

YELLOW BOOK

I understand that Geshe Kelsang views the contents of the Yellow Book as “different superstitions according to ordinary people’s appearance of Dorje Shugden” [see http://www.dharmaprotector.org/othertraditions.html] and that this is your view too.

However, the point I’m keen to make it this. The descriptions of Dorje Shugden’s actions in the Yellow Book are pretty much the same as those set out in the writings of both Trijang and Phabongkha. So it seems to me that, given you are claiming that Zemey is describing folk tales about Dorje Shugden, logically, you are entirely committed to making the same claim about Trijang and Phabongka.

The problem as I see it with making this claim about all three writers’ texts is that there is nothing in them where it explicitly states or even implies that what is being described are folk tales rather than actual events.

And it’s also worth pointing out that not all Shugden supporters subscribe to the “folk tales” reading of the Yellow Book.. For example, on the “Dorje Shugden” website, a site run by assorted Shugden practitioners, it states

“The much talked about ‘yellow book’ contains stories of what happened to people who ‘displeased’ Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told.”

[See http://www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism.htm]

SAKYA VIEWS ON DORJE SHUGDEN

You state that

“Gelugpas and Sakyas have been relying upon Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Protector for four hundred years.”

In his book “Heart Jewel”, Geshe Kelsang specifically mentions two Sakya lamas, Morchen Dorjechang Kunga Lhundrup and Sachen Kunlo, who he seems to imply regarded Dorje Shugden as an enlightened being. Elsewhere he states

“Not only Gelugpa Lamas believe this, some Sakya Lamas also believe that Dorje Shugden is a holy being. In the book by Dhongtog Tulku Tenpai Gyaltsen he says that Dorje Shugden cannot be a worldly spirit because he is a Bodhisattva.” [http://www.dharmaprotector.org/othertraditions.html]

I do find this last remark rather puzzling as, along with Chatral Rinpoche and Lobsang Gyatso, Dhongtog Tulku is well-known as an author of works forcefully arguing that Dorje Shugden is a worldly spirit! One of his works has been translated into English and goes by the title of “Earth shaking thunder of true word: a refutation of attacks on the advice of HH Dalai Lama regarding the propitiation of guardian deities.”

In “Heart Jewel”, Geshe Kelsang writes that Morchen told his disciples “Now is the time to rely upon Dorje Shugden”. However, according to Morchen’s namthar (spiritual biography) he himself did not rely upon Dorje Shugden! Instead he relied upon Panjaranatha, Shri Devi and Caturmukha, the usual protectors of the Sakya Order.

During the late 90s there was an ongoing debate regarding Dorje Shugden on the Google group, “talk religion”, though I have only looked at some of the postings there recently. In Dec 97 [see http://groups.google.com/group/talk.religion.buddhism/browse...] Chris Fynn (#14) wrote the following to Geshe Kelsang.

“You also write that Sakya Lama Morchen Kunga Lhundrup said that Dorje Shugden is an enlightened being and encouraged his followers to rely upon him. Could you please provide an exact reference to support this conflicting claim of yours? A friend of mine carefully read the autobiography of Morchen Kunga Lhundrup (Lamdre Collection, Volume #5, folio 451-625) and found only one reference to Shugden (which occurs on folio 577) where Morchen Kunga Lhundrup makes reference to making an offering to Dorje Shugden Tsal ‘so that oaths are maintained.’

There are also very long detailed lists of teachings that Morchen received and detailed lists of the teachings etc he gave at various places and to specific students. Nowhere in these lists it seems is Shugden mentioned as a teaching or a scriptural reading (lung) received or transmitted.”

It seems noteworthy that, in his reply to Chris Fynn, Geshe Kelsang (#23, 24) did not provide the exact reference that Chris Fynn requested.

In Feb 98 [see http://groups.google.com/group/alt.religion.buddhism.tibetan...],Chris Fynn (#122) posted the following (not this time to Geshe Kelsang).

“In his book ‘Heart Jewel’ Geshe Kelsang -without giving any reference claims- that Morchen Kunga Lhundrup worshipped Shugden as an enlightened protector and Alan Bird has recently claimed here that Morchen ‘encouraged his disciples to rely upon Dorje Shugden’.

However in Morchen's hagiography within the Lam Dre, Gyalpo Shugden is mentioned only once (the actual reference can be found in my previous post). There is also a list of all the empowerments Morchen gave - he gave the initiations of both the greater and lesser Mahakala several times however, there is no record of giving any initiation of Gyalpo Shugden, not even once. Now I'm sure Ven Geshe Kelsng believes that Morchen Kunga Lhundrup said these things and Alan and you believe Geshe Kelsang - but since this is such a controversial matter it is only reasonable that you are asked to provide proper references for these assertions. For two years people on this list (arbt) have asked for such textual references and, so far, no Shugden supporter has managed to provide them. The Lam Dre collection, the Sakya Khabum and numerous other Sakya works can be found in many university libraries, at the Tibetan Institute in Sarnath, at many Sakya monastaries. Surely it is not beyond the capacity of Geshe Kelsang and his students to come up with the source of his quote in a Sakya text if there is one.”

Of course, this situation may have changed since the late 1990s but I’m not aware that any Shugden supporter has yet come up with such a quote. Any clarification would be welcome.

With regard to Sachen Kunlo (Sakya Trizin Kunga Lodro), in #117 [same thread as Chris Fynn’s #122] the poster quotes a statement by Sakya scholar, Jeff Watt. It’s a little long, I’m afraid, but I quote it here in full as I think it’s instructive.

“According to Sakyapa oral history a high-ranking Gelugpa Lama, who lived in the 17th Century, committed suicide due to mental distress and subsequently became a daemon bent on causing many problems in Central Tibet and on seeking revenge against his enemies. Many lamas tried to subjugate the daemon but to no avail. Sakya Trizin Sonam Rinchen (the son of Sakya Trizin Ngawang Kunga Tashi, 1656-1711) was finally able to subjugate the worldly daemon, who is now known as Gyalpo Shugden. There is some controversy over which lama actually subjugated Shugden, some believe it was the Head of the Nyingma Tradition. In one of these stories Shugden was being subjugated by the Nyingma Lama and, being very afraid, fled to Sakya to take refuge with Sakya Trizin Sonam Rinchen. (See T.G.Dhongthog, ‘The Timely Shower,’ pp.104-127, 1974.)

Because Shugden was so terrifying and caused so many problems Sakya Trizin Sonam Rinchen made an offer to him that Sakyapa monks would ritually feed him once a day by offering torma in the daily 'Protector Puja' and in exchange Shugden would not harm or kill sentient beings. This offer was excepted by Shugden. The main monastery of Sakya, Lhakang Chenmo, and its branch monasteries offer torma to Shugden daily and have done so for the past few hundred years. The text used is approximately one folio in length, back and front. No branch of the Sakyapas (Ngorpa, Tsharpa, etc.) other than the original tradition practice the torma offering to Shugden.

As stated above, it is said in the oral tradition that Sakya Trizin Sonam Rinchen either subjugated Shugden or gave refuge to him when he was being subjugated by a Nyingma lama. However, there are problems with this. The 5th Dalai Lama lived between 1616-1682. The father of Sonam Rinchen was Sakya Trizin Ngawang Kunga Tashi 1656-1711. It may have been that Shugden continued to cause disruptions in Central Tibet after the 5th Dalai Lama passed away and was then subjugated by Sonam Rinchen.

Shugden is completely a worldly deity. I have never seen any text or heard of any oral commentary coming from a Sakyapa Lama, living or dead, past or present, that states anything other than the worldly nature of Shugden. In particular, he is not regarded by Sakyapas as an emanation of Manjushri or of Yamantaka.

According to the Sakyapa tradition Shugden belongs to a set of three deities known as the 'Three Kings': Tsi'u Marpo, Dorje Saithrap and Shugden. As a minor protector in Sakya he has on occasion developed a closer relationship with some Sakya Lamas. SAKYA TRIZIN KUNGA LODRO, a scholar and mahasiddha, and son of Sakya Trizin Sonam Rinchen, wrote a slightly longer 'torma offering' puja text ("Shug-den Gyal-so"). He also created a dance for Shugden so he was not left out during the large Mahakala celebrations where all the protectors are represented with music and dance”.

There is no doubt that Sonam Rinchen and Sachen Kunlo wrote torma offerings to Dorje Shugden. But equally, there is no doubt that these were offerings not to an enlightened protector but to a worldly protector.

Best regards

SC

shaza
24 September 2008 at 17:35

Hi Lucy James

---------------------------"The Eleventh Dalai Lama enthroned Dorje Shugden as an enlightened Potector of the Ganden tradition and this tradition has continued until the present day."

Beside SC's points, I would also like to ask if there's any history except Trijang's book to back up the claim that the 11th Dalai Lama enthroned Dorje Shugden?

I really doubt he did.

But if he had really done it, it would appear to be highly inauspicious because the 11th had only been in reign for a year before he passed away at the age of 18.

So you see why i cannot take Trijang's words for it?

Best

Shaza

Andrew
27 September 2008 at 00:52

@SeekingClarity

Thankyou for your post.

Your points seem to be concerned with religion and I do not understand how any of them could be used to support the ban.

Sometimes in the West we do see examples of people discriminating on the grounds of religion and we call this sectarianism. Can you explain how the ban on Dorje Shugden practice is not sectarian.

Andrew

SeekingClarity
27 September 2008 at 10:56

Hi Andrew

You're absolutely right to point out my post was about the validity of DS practice rather about the Dalai Lama's actions.

Why did I focus on this aspect? Because the DL's actions (whether you think them right or wrong) are based on his belief that DS is not a legitimate practice. So the issue of legitimacy would seem to go the very heart of the matter.

And of course one could, in theory, take the view that (1) the DL is RIGHT that DS is not a legitimate practice but (2) the DL is WRONG to ban the practice in monastaries.

Some people seem to think that if they can show the DL has acted badly (lied, inappropriately issued a ban etc) this somehow shows that DS is a legitimate practice. But I just don't see that this follows. It could be the case that the DL is shown to be very bad man but that nevertheless there are compelling reasons why DS is not a legitimate practice. After all, there were many folk arguing against its legitimacy long before the current DL came upon the scene.

Does this make sense?

SC

SeekingClarity
27 September 2008 at 11:19

Hi Andrew

Re-read your post and not sure I fully answered you. So here's another attempt

One can argue whether the DL's belief that DS is not a legitimate Buddhist practice is a mistaken or unmistaken belief. But either way this is his strong belief. I guess there are two positions that people take.

(1) The DL believes DS not to be a legitimate practice and IS justified in banning the practice in monasteries.

(2) The DL believes DS not to be a legitimate practice but is NOT justified in banning the practice in the monasteries.

As I understand it, the argument for (1) goes like this.

All Gelug monasteries in India are branches of the Tibetan Government in Exile (Ganden Phodrang). The DL is perfectly within his rights as the head of the Ganden Phodrang to set policies for Gelug monasteries in India. And, if the DL strongly believes that the practice of DS is an illegitimate practice that is, if you like, "infecting" pure Buddhadharma, then, arguably, he has a duty to ban the practice in the monasteries under his control.

SC

Friendoftruth
11 October 2008 at 04:35

Oh my oh my!

Well, what sophism is this, my dear Seeking Clarity?

Let me tell you a couple of things.

Before being the head of the TGIE the Dalai Lama is the honored guest of the Indian government. In India it is forbidden to forbid a deity. So, starting there, you tell me where is the legitimacy for him going around banning one. Besides, how come you speak of ban? The Dalai Lama and the TGIE say that there never was any ban, just friendly advice ...

Who cares what lies and sophisms are used by whom.

The world is starting to become aware of the cruel religious and civic persecution the Dorje Shugden people are suffering at the hands of the Tibetan Associations and other Tibetan institutions, directly following the orders of the Dalai Lama and the TGIE.

So you are friendly adviced, Seeker of clarity, and Shazas of this world: stop defending and backing such attacks on the basic human rights of so many people. What becomes a decent human being is to defend the persecuted, not to justify the persecutor.

Thank you.

Duldzin
27 October 2008 at 19:23

Millions of Buddhist across the world carry out the practice of an ancient well loved prayer to the Buddhist Deity Dorje Shugden.

The Dalai Lama has illegally banned this prayer even though he himself practiced it for most of his life and was taught to him by his Spiritual Guide before him. Since banning the prayer in 1996, the Dalai Lama has set about instigating and endorsing a series of non-democratic and vehement campaigns toward Shugden practitioners causing tremendous pain and great schisms within the Buddhist community worldwide.

His campaign has intensified since January this year when over a 1000 monks were unconstitutionally expelled from their monasteries, Tibetans-in-exile were forcibly intimidated to engage in public signature and swearing campaigns, and since which Shugden devotees have experienced having identity cards and visa applications withheld, they have been denied basic needs and necessities such as food, water and medical assistance, and there have been instances of thuggish attacks against persons and arson against their property simply because they wish to maintain their spiritual beliefs.

The Dalai Lama continues to campaign for support to seek religious freedom from the Chinese. Yet, millions of Shugden practitioners worldwide are also seeking religious freedom - from the Dalai Lama.