The Faith Column

134 comments from readers

nawawimohamad
26 August 2008 at 11:26

I don't believe in dieties because the total number of deities will be infinity. Can anybody tell me how many?

It is simpler and most practical to be believe in just one God, directly with God with no intermediaries. And no superstitions either.

bengrimwood
26 August 2008 at 12:32

Two words about Dorje Shugden and why he was denounced: "Yellow Book" It was penned in 1975. It describes 23 lamas killed by Shugden because they strayed from his sect, his 'purity' - there are more tibetan texts that need translating which will further confirm Shugdens role not as a protector diety but as a malevolent demon.

karma
26 August 2008 at 12:56

Dordje shugden, is a wrathfull emanation, and practised in gelugpa tradition.

It's very powerfull.

It is usually misunderstood, when HH dalai lama asks not do this kind of a practise.

There's nothing wrong practising it, as long as you keep in mind that whatever you do, should be in the interest to take away suffering for

all sentient beings.

Now That gelug lama' have this deity as a personal protector, ok.

what it does is i.e. you can overcome hindraces, or you can defeat your enemy.

and here's the danger: supose that chinese are the enemy for you, and you use your energy to battle this, so can your enemy do the

same withe the same deity.

It is sad, that some lama's complain in the open, instead of continuing their practise quietly.

because some of them reside in the uk.

It's another sad thing that uk people become buddhist because of this forbidden practise. and go out on the street and shout what kind

of a criminal his holiness is, and what lies he's telling.

While for HH compassion comes in the first place.

myself I'm a kagyu practitioner, but I'm open for all other schools. an aswer to previuos q: there are 86.000 goddess and goddesses,

none of them are truly existing, but merely an emanation of, compassion, wisdom, liberation, healing, and so on. in othe'r words a God

is just a reflection like the moon reflects in a pool of water. empty by it's nature.

"tong ba nyi" in tibetan

in order to get the right intuition it is neseesary to reflect analyze and study these topics, on rangton, shengton (empy of self and empty of other, with an open unconditioned mind

karma
26 August 2008 at 13:01

btw I'm from belgium, and apologize for any written mistakes, please try to see the good qualities in a person, and cover the lesser qualities with the blanket of love. karma

Lubov
26 August 2008 at 13:55

Dear Karma,

In relation to your comment - "It is usually misunderstood, when HH dalai lama asks not do this kind of a practise."

I don't agree that there is any misunderstanding on the Dalai Lamas request for people to stop engaging in the beautiful Dorje Shugden prayer.

Can you not see that his words would encourage Abbots, police and the Tibetan Prime Minister to enforce a ban? It is not as simple as the Dalai Lama announcing he no longer practices this prayer. He has instructed a ban on this prayer.

As a Westerner he threatens my practise by defaming any Buddhist who engages in this prayer, however, in the Tibetan exiled community monks are expelled from their monasteries, denied a National ID card, denied food and visas.

Sure someone can give their opinion, however, when it is a political leader and his/her actions incite segregation, discrimination, hatred and anger it’s irresponsible and I believe that in the long run he/she will be accountable.

Love

Lubov

dee cani
26 August 2008 at 14:21

Dear all,

The Dalai Lama

has asked only

that people who wish to be his students

stop this practice,

not that everyone stop.

If you do not wish to be his student,

there is no restriction.

If you do wish to be his sutdent, why would you not follow his advice, born of scholarly research?

t. lhamo

wisdombuddha
26 August 2008 at 14:51

dear t lhamo,

If you look at this video it is very clear the Dalai Lama is trying to enforce this ban everywhere he has influence:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

More information on this can be found at:

http://www.wisdombuddhadorjeshugden.org/

http://www.westernshugdensociety.org

Lucy James
26 August 2008 at 15:25

Why not just ask another Deity or Buddha to protect us?! I have been relying upon this Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden for 27 years and have felt every day his beneficial influence in my life. I'll try and give some context here to help the general reader.

According to Mahayana Buddhism there are countless Buddhas, or enlightened beings, because everyone (Buddhist or not) always has the potential to perfect their love, compassion and wisdom. The Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden is one Buddha among many. Some people trying to figure it out have asked me, "Why the fuss about this particular Buddha? Why not just give into the Dalai Lama's wishes to stop the worship of this Buddha? Isn't all Buddhism the same?" This is equivalent to suggesting to a Franciscan that he stop making prayers to St. Francis. What may seem an obscure practice to others, including other Christians, is an essential part of others' faith.

But to understand the context, we can step back a moment to point out that Dorje Shugden practitioners are all Buddhists who rely on Buddha, Dharma (inner realizations of his teachings), and Sangha (the spiritual community). As Buddhists, we are dedicated to improving our inner qualities such as love, compassion and wisdom to find greater peace of mind and capacity to help others, culminating in the highest spiritual goal of enlightenment for the sake of all living beings. Along with that we are striving to overcome the so-called delusions in our mind, such as anger, greed, pride and ignorance, that cause our own and others' suffering. Lofty goals indeed! And that is where Dorje Shugden comes in. We need help if we are going to do this.

According to the Mahayana Buddhism of Tibet and elsewhere, Buddhas can appear in any form they choose -- they have mastered reality, the illusory nature of all phenomena, so they can do as they please! Some enlightened beings appear as teachers (in any tradition), some appear as Dharma Protectors, some appear as ordinary beings. Dorje Shugden is a Dharma Protector manifestation of the Wisdom Buddha Manjushri. He protects the Dharma of love, compassion and especially wisdom in our minds. His relatively wrathful aspect symbolizes his power to help us defeat the inner enemies of the delusions.

Lucy James
26 August 2008 at 15:35

This tradition of prayer and worship is not a new thing. It is 400 years old.

For 400 years Dorje Shugden practitioners have made peaceful prayers to this Buddha. For example:

“Now is the time to protect the pitiful and protectorless;

Now is the time to protect Dharma practitioners as your children.”

This is an unbroken tradition of prayer that has been passed down to us through generations of highly accomplished Buddhist masters up to the present day. The Dalai Lama himself was a recipient of this tradition through his own masters, including the beloved Trijang Rinpoche, who taught him most of the Dharma he knows. Dorje Shugden is a Buddha and so his compassion protects all living beings, but his main job is to protect the realizations (inner spiritual experiences) of those who are sincerely trying to follow the tradition of Buddha Shakyamuni (500BC) as transmitted via the great Indian Buddhist master Atisha (982-1054AD) and the great Tibetan scholar and saint Je Tsongkhapa (1357-1419AD). This is called the Ganden, or Gelug, or Kadampa tradition.

Just as there are many paths up the mountain, so there have always been many Buddhist traditions, all dating back to Buddha Shakyamuni (500BC). Dorje Shugden practitioners are not claiming to have the best tradition, just the one that works best for us. The Dalai Lama has broken with his masters and this tradition and now insists that everyone follow him along his own unchartered path.

Lucy James
26 August 2008 at 15:47

Two words about the Yellow Book and why it was denounced: "superstitious claptrap".

Dorje Shugden is not a demon but a Buddha, a fully enlightened being. But I'm sure Meindert Gotter will get to that bit in a later blog.

dspak
26 August 2008 at 16:09

The controversy between the Dalai Lama and Dorje Shugden began at the time of the 5th Dalai Lama (1617 - 1682). He ruled at a time when Tibetan society was fractured, and he sought to consolidate power into the institution of the Dalai Lamas (backed by Mongol military power). Then, like now, the 5th Dalai Lama felt that there needed to be absolute unity of the Tibetan people for the sake of political unity. Towards this end, he attempted to spiritually unite the different schools of Tibetan Buddhism and he encouraged Tibetan practitioners to mix the teachings from different traditions. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen (1619-1656), who was an extremely popular and renowned Lama at the time and who was a rival candidate for being named the Dalai Lama, did not agree with mixing Dharma and politics and he encouraged his students to follow the teachings of Je Tsongkhapa purely without mixing. This was perceived by the 5th Dalai Lama as an obstacle to him being able to consolidate his power. For this reason he was killed by forces loyal to the 5th Dalai Lama.

Historical records indicate this was a great shock to Tibetan society, like the main opposition leader of a country being assassinated. Tulku Dragpa Gyaltsen’s next reincarnation was as Dorje Shugden. Subsequent to this, the government of the 5th Dalai Lama blamed every misfortune that befell Tibetan society on Dorje Shugden, thus the myth that he was an ‘evil spirit’ was born (even though the Dalai Lama must have known that the previous incarnations of Dragpa Gyaltsen were of a line of universally recognized enlightened beings).

The 5th Dalai Lama, thinking that Dorje Shugden was a spirit seeking revenge for his murder, then tried to dispel and destroy Dorje Shugden through a variety of different wrathful rituals. Ultimately, his efforts failed. The 5th Dalai Lama's then changed his mind about the nature of Dorje Shugden and wrote a prayer to him as an enlightened Protector. He also offered a temple in Lhasa to him called Trode Khangsar that is still there today, and created a statue with his own hands and placed it at a monastery called Phelgyeling (in Nepal, which is now in the process of being destroyed by the Dalai Lama's followers).

Dorje Shugden has been a Dharma Protector of Je Tsongkhapa’s tradition for around 350 years, but it became a ‘mainstream’ practice during the time of Je Phabongkhapa (1878-1941) and Trijang Rinpoche (1900-1981), the two most prominent Gelug Lamas of the 20th century. Directly or indirectly, virtually all Gelugpas descend from these two great masters. Trijang Rinpoche was the Spiritual Guide of the 14th Dalai Lama; Lama Yeshe and Lama Zopa, the founders of the Foundation for the Preservation of the Mahayana Tradition (FPMT); Geshe Rabten, founder of Rabten Choeling monastary in Switzerland; Geshe Kelsang Gyatso, founder of the New Kadampa Tradition, and many other prominent lamas who have come to the West. Trijang Rinpoche passed the practice of Dorje Shugden to these great lamas and he taught the practice extensively until the day he died. The 14th Dalai Lama himself had taken a lifetime commitment to practice Dorje Shugden from his Spiritual Guide.

dee cani
26 August 2008 at 18:01

Again,

if you want to do this practice, you can do it.

If you want to follow the teachings of the Dalai Lama,

you would not.

Everyone can choose. No one's choice has been taken away.

But one cannot simultaneously follow contradictory approaches. So everyone can follow the path they choose to.

t lhamo

Dougal
26 August 2008 at 18:34

t. lhamo -

that's, at the very least, disingenuous.

sure, in Tibetan society you have "choice" not to follow the Dalai Lama's "advice", but if you do so - if you do not sign the compulsory oath that every member of the exiled Tibetan community worldwide is being asked to sign - then you do not get an ID card, if you're a monk or nun you'll be expelled from your monastery, you cannot get a visa to travel, you will not be served in most Tibetan shops or restaurants, your children will not be admitted to school, you may be denied medical treatment. all of these things are happening right now.

the social cost of making the "choice" not to follow the Dalai Lama's ban is horrendous. what's more, the Dalai Lama knows this.

some "choice"!

shieu hoong
26 August 2008 at 19:01

"No one's choice has been taken away."

let's ask the old lady who had to walk out miles to the nearest indian shop for food because the tibetan shops in the tibetan refugee camps were ordered not to sell to her and who had to finally move to ooty for her safety as the people in her camp kept knocking on her door in the middle of he night. let's ask the young widow who lives alone with her 4 young kids in mundgod if her neighbours have started to talk to her again or if folks still throw bricks through her windows or if her kids have been able to safely return to the tibetan school or if they even go to any school at all as she has no money to send them to the indian schools. yup, let's just ask these people what their choices are.

gimilisaxe
26 August 2008 at 19:34

Shugden was banned because the practice is used to harm others. My own teacher, an American, was attacked without provocation by American practitioners of Shugden. He was sick for several days until he realized where it was coming from. It should be a big clue as to the nature of Shugden that it is the only "Tibetan Buddhist" practice recognized as official and encouraged by Chinese authorities. How can a practice used to harm others be Buddhist?

Robert Thomas
26 August 2008 at 20:20

Dear Gimilsaxe, what superstitious nonsense! Have you ever read The Crucibal by Arthur Miller? These kind of ideas can be very harmful if we give them credence.

bengrimwood
26 August 2008 at 20:39

Will NKT members please announce themselves as such and stop hiding behind other organizations - I was a member until these lambs donned the WSS clothing of a wolf earlier this year. The Yellow Book was indeed casually dismissed as superstitious claptrap by the known pariah Gehse Kelsang Gyatso. Yet on www.dorjeshugden.com/sectarianism can be found the following text:

"The much talked about “yellow book” contains stories of what happened to people who “displeased” Dorje Shugden, which means to say, they were practitioners of Je Tsongkapas tradition and of Dorje Shugden as Dharma protector who did not heed his repeated advice and warnings not to mix and pollute the teachings. Sickness, insanity and death ensued. The book was compiled by Tzeme Rinpoche, an eminent lineage holder, and we can therefore assume that these accounts are more than mere pedagogy, but actually happened the way they are told. (As a consequence of the scandal following the printing of the yellow book, Tzeme Rinpoche has ceased to teach. A famous disciple of Tzeme Rinpoche is Dr. Thupten Jinpa, HH the Dalai Lama’s main translator.)"

Why would he cease to teach if this was only superstition? They also mention about how he was the reincarnation of the murdered Tulku Drakpa Gyaltsen - murdered with 'bodhichitta motivation' (????). Not a promising start to his lifespan.

So maybe Shugden proponents should get their stories straight about who they believe Shugden to be. Je Tsongkhapa had some perfectly respectful protector dieties before Shugden came along.

The Dalai Lama almost refused his long life offerings on the basis of the Yellow Book - and I think you will find he is the most accomplished Buddhist alive, not just because of his Buddhist status but because he has been forced to be a samsaric politician and diplomat. He has not sat in study rooms taking shots at other traditions. Even then, he performed 20 years of research before making the move to restrict Shugen. What amazes me is some people completely fail to put this into context. HHDL is revered worldwide for his compassion and patience with regard the Tibet situation and for his teachings - his talks are sold out worldwide and in a world where political leaders have shown such ignorance there are a lot of people who wish their leaders could demonstrate his nature a bit more. The Chinese government LOVE Shugden and stand hand in hand with people such as the WSS when HHDL is protested against. The WSS have no interest in Tibet, their websites contain no dharma, only vitriol and either incomplete or grossly exaggerated truths that prove that Shugden is against the very institution of the Dalai Lama. Not surprising when it's orchestrator, GKG, is the nephew of the Dorje Shugden Oracle. Shugden represents division, sectarian intolerance and death. Pro-Tibetan NGOs view the WWS and it's protestors as a gross obstruction to the goal of Tibetan autonomy and the hope of Tibetans ever returning to the land of the snows. They have been counter protested against by pro-Tibetan NGOs. Give your money to NKT and help destroy Tibet! Watch this space NKT teachers.

Jason
26 August 2008 at 21:28

Hi I am an NKT member and have also attended some of the demonstrations organised by the Western Shugden Society. At the US demos in July there were many brave Tibetan demonstrators who were prepared to take a very risky, public stand against their oppression by the Dalai Lama. It was so moving to meet them and to hear their stories and made me all the more determined to help bring about a resolution.

I have engaged in this practice for fifteen years and have always found it to be beneficial for my own inner peace and for helping others around me. I pray that this divisive and unnecessary ban will be over soon.

Dougal
26 August 2008 at 21:29

Ben -

um, what?

everybody else -

no Buddhist has ever been harmed by evil spirits, ok? for these Buddhists who follow the Shugden practice - and they're numerous and mainstream Gelugpas, not some wacky sect - Dorje Shugden is a Buddha. they're praying to him in order to increase their love, compassion and wisdom, not to kill their next door neighbours.

however - many, many people HAVE been harmed by the Dalai Lama's politically-motivated religious ban. this is not the stuff of fasiry-tales - it's happening right now.

so long as nobody's harming anyone else (and i think we can all at least try to be rational and discount Yellow Books and Chinese ghosts, no?), shouldn't everyone have the right to practise whatever relgious belief they see fit? who's the Dalai Lama to go around issuing such disastrous, unconstitutional, and downright totalitarian bans? "most accomplished Buddhist alive"? you must be joking.

Dougal
26 August 2008 at 21:33

um - that'll be "fairy-tales".

i don't believe in fasiries.

Snowball
26 August 2008 at 21:41

Dorje Shugden was not denounced because of the Yellow book. The Yellow book was used to denounce Dorje Shugden. A book of superstitious tales held up and used by the Dalai Lama as a convenient means to begin his campaign to stamp out a practice adored by many thousands of peaceful people. I guess some Lamas are more equal than others.

bengrimwood
26 August 2008 at 23:00

Dougal - all you have done is reiterate what has already been stated, not address my individual points. Tell me - what do you make of the quotes from www.dorjeshugden.com? Why are Tibetans attending the Dalai Lama's speeches waving money at WSS folk? Why is that? Why are pro-Tibetan NGOs against the WSS? Why does the NKT not announce it's divisive relationship with HHDL to its lay members so that they have the freedom to choose? Seems rather duplicitous to me. With GKG, it is 'my way or the high way' - his sectarianism is very obvious. He even puts line drawings of himself into his books which is distinctly at odds with his professed 'humility'. What have you to say about WSS doing the same work as the Chinese government by Shugden propitiation - who still hold the worlds youngest political prisoner - the Panchen Lama? As I say, when I mention his accomplishments, I am referring to his Ghandi like approach to the freedom of Tibet. What has GKG ever done for Tibet his birthplace - please, tell me? Please answer these questions and identify yourself if you are NKT. People can worship whoever they like, I have no problem withg that. Shugden is not for me for sure. But would the Pope be accused of religious suppression if he banned Satanists from the Catholic church - of course not - the example is extreme, but it follows the same tangent. The Dalai Lama could not have denounced Shugden if 80% of Tibetans were dedicated practitioners of his. Do you think he did it for fun? For a laugh? What do you think he stood to gain - do you genuinely think he is a malicious man??? Would this not have become manifest before the Shugden denouncement. He did it for Tibet - because an unprecedented show of unity between the four schools is the only way to hope to regain their homeland. Shugdens sectarianism threatens that, if some Gelugpas have been offended by the denouncement of Shugden, countless more from the other schools would have been offended by his continued propitation as well as within the Gelug.

Lubov
26 August 2008 at 23:52

deecani,

The Dalai Lama is enforcing a ban on Dorje Shugden practitioners in the Tibetan exiled community - these people are not his students. They do not want to be his student or attend his teachings.

lubov

Tenzin
26 August 2008 at 23:56

dear Bengimwood, I'm sure a lot of what you bring up will be covered by the blogger in the next few days. But just to answer some of your questions as briefly as possible (and I'm sorry it is such a hard issue to understand, but that's just the way it seems to be. The simplest way to approach it might just be to leave out the philosophizing and just all agree to disagree about that but to agree that human rights abuses are wrong and that everyone should be allowed to practice the religion of their choosing, even if the Dalai Lama doesn't want them to.)

"Tell me - what do you make of the quotes from www.dorjeshugden.com?"

I think you should ask them. I think that group includes Tibetans and Westerners from various Centres in the West and the East. I am sure they don't all agree 100% with each other about everything, and that is fine by me. There are a large variety of Shugden practitioners, we are not all exactly the same.

"Why are Tibetans attending the Dalai Lama's speeches waving money at WSS folk? Why is that?"

Because they mistakenly believe that those who practice Dorje Shugden are on the pay roll of the Chinese and they are being very insulting with their gestures. No evidence, none whatsoever, for this tired accusation. Anyone with a difference of opinion from the DL must simply be a friend of the Chinese. That is the faulty logic at work here.

"Why does the NKT not announce it's divisive relationship with HHDL to its lay members so that they have the freedom to choose? Seems rather duplicitous to me. "

I think members of the NKT cannot avoid knowing that the Dalai Lama has condemned them! It is not exactly a secret. And this has nothing to do with today's blog.

"With GKG, it is 'my way or the high way' - his sectarianism is very obvious. He even puts line drawings of himself into his books which is distinctly at odds with his professed 'humility'. "

This has nothing to do with today's blog either. But still, here we go. Obvious in what way? And on the subject of humility and pictures, have you read Robert Thurman's latest book on the Dalai Lama (endorsed by the Dalai Lama?) And seen that picture of the DL appearing as 1000-armed Avalokiteshvara? The DL said in Unwinking Gaze that Tibetans will die when he dies, that they'll commit suicide from sorrow. Unthinkable for Geshe Kelsang or other Shugden Lamas to talk like that. Students of Geshe Kelsang asked for the line drawings to be included.

"What have you to say about WSS doing the same work as the Chinese government by Shugden propitiation - who still hold the worlds youngest political prisoner - the Panchen Lama?"

Not a lot to say as this is the "Chinese excuse" again -- "don't whatever you do oppose the Dalai Lama on any issue or you'll play into Chinese hands". That is a license for the Dalai Lama to do whatever he wants (a license he has used!) Dorje Shugden practitioners have no more than any other Tibetan to do with the Chinese government nor the Dalai Lama's appointed Panchen Lama. They just want the religious freedom to practice in peace.

"As I say, when I mention his accomplishments, I am referring to his Ghandi like approach to the freedom of Tibet. What has GKG ever done for Tibet his birthplace - please, tell me?"

(Again, this is irrelevant to the argument of whether Dorje Shugden practitioners should be given religious freedom.) Geshe Kelsang went to Tibet and rebuilt his first monastery, Jampa Ling. He has helped bring his Tibetan Guru, Trijang Rinpoche's Gelugpa Buddhist teachings to many thousands of students in the West in accordance with his Guru's wishes. He helps many thousands of Tibetan Dorje Shuden practitioners by standing up for their actual freedom, their freedom of religion. What has the Dalai Lama accomplished for the freedom of Tibet?

"People can worship whoever they like, I have no problem withg that. Shugden is not for me for sure. But would the Pope be accused of religious suppression if he banned Satanists from the Catholic church - of course not - the example is extreme, but it follows the same tangent."

Yes the example is extreme and also illogical. Should the followers of e.g. the Virgin Mary be outlawed by the Christian church by the same token? In any case, Dorje Shugden practitioners are Buddhists (whereas Satanists are not exactly Catholics) and the Dalai Lama is not the pope of Buddhism. There is no such thing.

"The Dalai Lama could not have denounced Shugden if 80% of Tibetans were dedicated practitioners of his. Do you think he did it for fun? For a laugh? What do you think he stood to gain - do you genuinely think he is a malicious man???"

I don't know the answer to why the Dalai Lama is banning the religious practice of hundreds of thousands of people. It isn't much of a laugh for the Dorje Shugden practitioners who are being persecuted for their beliefs as we speak.

"He did it for Tibet - because an unprecedented show of unity between the four schools is the only way to hope to regain their homeland."

There you may be right -- bring all four schools under him and he is then the undisputed theocratic religious and political leader. But this mixing of religion and politics hasn't worked to regain the homeland. And, by the way, Tibetan Dorje Shugden practitioners love their homeland too.

"Shugdens sectarianism threatens that, if some Gelugpas have been offended by the denouncement of Shugden, countless more from the other schools would have been offended by his continued propitation as well as within the Gelug."

They weren't offended before this ban, they all lived together peacefully. Who asked for the ban? Only the Dalai Lama himself. You implied the reason for that yourself, that he wants to bring all four Tibetan Buddhist schools under him, and Dorje Shugden practitioners want to keep practicing just their traditional Gelugpa tradition so they are getting in his way. The fact is that Dorje Shugden practitioners are not sectarian but respect the right of others to practice their religion. i'm sure this'll be covered in more detail in the next few days.

Thanks for the discussions.

Lubov
26 August 2008 at 23:57

Ben,

You made a comment - "Will NKT members please announce themselves as such and stop hiding behind other organizations".

What other organisations have been mentioned on this blog?

What organisation are you from?

Tara

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 00:24

Hey, Dorje Shugden folks! I am so proud of you.

I started reading this blog with fear in my heart. I so much dreaded that the slander of our dear disinformed attackers would set ablaze anger!

And I can see that you have been just answering with a lot of patience, every point, with reason. Not with insults to retaliate, just good reasons.

Well, this is very brave and I feel elated. I rejoice in your patience.

I would like to participate a little in this debate and will come to it later on.

Thank you all, those who agree and those who disagree. Because you see, beyond the fact that those who disagree so strongly give us the opportunity to practice the precious training of the mind, they give us also the opportunity to explain our issues in more detailed, comprehensive way.

Today is such a precious day for all practitioners!

I already have our precious practice done, I wish the best to those who still have to go and sit in their cushions.

SARVA MANGALAM

gimilisaxe
27 August 2008 at 00:33

Tenzin, you dismiss the connection between the Chinese government and Shugden but this is from dorjeshugden.com...

"China is supporting the practice and spread of Dorje Shugden’s lineage within China and Tibet itself. No one can stop that."

http://www.dorjeshugden.com/panchenshugden.htm

There is quite a tract there aligning shugden with the PRC. You deny it but Dorje Shugden itself is quite proud to proclaim its connection with communist China and its aims. What more does anyone need to know about it?

jampel
27 August 2008 at 00:51

Thank you all for your postings they are very helpful.

I hope we can simply go back to the issue. Shugden Practioners' simply wish to be able to practice in the way we choose.

If the Dali Lama leaves us alone, no more demos. Very simple.

If the DL continues to create obstacles for our practice of Dorje Shugden then, of course, we have to engage in actions to protect the lineage that we hold so dear.

Let us be very clear. We do not wish to stop the practice of anyone, but someone does wish to stop our practice. This is not difficult. We are simply trying to uphold our constitutional right to practice our religion. Very simple. Can anyone really argue with this in modern day society?

You can say DL says this, DL says that, but if you are arguing for the ban on a religious prayer you are actually acting against the constitution of the US and many other countries (maybe your constitution?). For those who are not protected by modern society, we also have an obligation to assist them in any way we can.

Always with love

-Kelsang Jampel

Yes, a follower of my Spiritual Guide Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. Why would I hide? I have nothing to hide from.

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 02:21

To gimilisaxe.

Dear friend, probably because Beggar close the Dorjeshugden.com's Forum you are misinterpreting him and unwillingly disinforming others. I used to belong to that Forum, so let me explain what you so hastily judge as a "Chinese connection".

First of all you forgot to quote the Mission Statement of Dorjeshugden.com: it is devoted to the glory of the Dalai Lama.

Beggar, the owner of the website, has this bizarre thesis:

That the Dalai Lama doesn't believe in what he is doing, that he has banned the holy Protector in order to propagate the devotion to Dorje Shugden, as a way to disseminate buddhism among the Chinese, because, according to Beggar, the Dalai Lama knows that the Chinese always do the contrary of what he desires, so, logically the Chinese are going to be interested (religiously) in Dorje Shugden. Since Dorje Shugden is a Buddha, then, these are the skilfull means the Dalai Lama uses to benefit the Chinese.

Gotcha? A little difficult?

Well, I don't remember anybody among my fellow members of that Forum that followed Beggar in his circumvoluted theory. We just humored him, because he was such a great guy, such good person! And he gave us for a whole year the opportunity to meet in great harmony. To people who are persecuted it felt good to be together and be able to communicate.

Unhappily Beggar closed the Forum, because some misled Dalai Lama's followers started sending black magic messages, insults, and in general showing a really mistaken attitude. So this pure heart chose to sacrifice our meeting space, in order not to give others the oportunity to commit more transgressions to the basic vows of morality.

Thank you gimilisaxe for this opportunity to remember such a great person. We were not all the time in agreement with Beggar, but we loved him very much.

We Dorje Shugden people are a relaxed, free-thinking bunch, so obviously we are not clones one from another, so obviously we disagree with great happiness about many things, except the chore of our faith.

Beggar, if you ever read this, we miss you friend.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 03:44

I am not a Shugden practitioner myself, but I have encountered many through the years and I have always been struck by the fact that they usually agree with me that there can be no practice of the Dharma without the practice of virtue --- this coming from a tradition which has always considered the Vajrayana to be superior to the Paramitayana.

Friendoftruth
27 August 2008 at 04:00

Dharmakara,

Thank you for your kind words.

I think we could say that the Vajrayana is faster than the Paramitayana, but without the practices of the Paramitayana, of which of course the Perfection of Morality is one of the major points, there is no way to really enter the Vajrayana.

This is the tradition, after all, of Lord Atisha and Lord Je Tsongkapa, who never separated Sutra from Tantra, on the contrary.

And may be you know that our most holy Dorje Shugden has among his names --starting with the times when he was one of Je Tsongkapa's close disciples and following today with the great king of the five families-- Dulzin, Dulwa Zinpa, or Vinaya Holder.

Let's see what this blog is going to give us tomorrow.

Best to all.

bengrimwood
27 August 2008 at 04:03

Tara - I left the NKT after two years in Spring. I was absolutely horrified to stumble across the website of the WSS with so many prominent NKT members in it, I was reading text like this about HHDL:

“According to some sources, you were born in a Muslim family. When you were a child who did not know anything, some ignorant Tibetans acting as repre¬sentatives of the Tibetan Government chose that boy as the reincarnation of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. Since that time, that boy wore saffron robes, and the local people jokingly nicknamed you as ´The Saffron Robed Muslim´. In this way, you received the position of the Tibetan Dalai Lama. Because of this, many people now keep your photograph on their shrines and worship you”

Even though they were also saying they were not attacking the institution of the Dalai Lama. So no wonder i begun to question my allegiances. I had been making offerings to Shugden with no knowledge that he had been denounced by HHDL - I believe I and others were deliberately kept in the dark for fear of losing members and I believe I had the right to know and choose for myself. NKT members are difficult to trust not because they are by nature devious but because the exclusivity that GKG commands leads to close mindedness and lack of exposure to other aspects of Tibetan Buddhism outside of the NKT. It leaves them vulnerable of charges being a personality cult, even my NKT teacher told me he was concerned with how the protests were being carried out and despite he and others feeling uncomfortable - he went along anyway, as you do for protests you aren't really sure about. He said that some senior members of the Nkt were 'tripping over themselves' to please GKG despite the fact that it is the dharma that pacifies the mind and the medium is really irrelevant. These are why NKT people are so close minded and can see no one elses point of view than that of GKG - I have experienced it directly as have hundreds of others who have left the NKT. In GKGs world, he is right and everyone else has the wrong view and the slavish devotion of his followers is not becoming of of an open and integral organisation. I can already see Tenzin churning out all the GKG propaganda, he is clearly a member or he would not know that it was GKGs students who requested that line drawings of him be added to his books. And if the divisive relationship between GKG and HHDL is so well known to all NKT members then why are there no links on any NKT websites to the pro-Sugden folks? The answer is fear that they will be rejected. Goodness knows how NKT/WSS have leveraged such funds, it scares me to think where the publics money is being spent on when they buy a GKG book. HHDL has not said a single bad word in public about GKG even though with the media platform he has he could discredit the NKT permanently. He doesn't have too anyway, GKG is doing that himself. The incidence of the hits in Google for the search ''NKT cult" are rapidly increasing and theolgians and scholars such as David Kay are already starting to reveal the truth about GKG in their published works. NKT members have no frame of reference for critiquing other areas of Tibetan Buddhism, this is the way GKG wants to keep it. As for HHDL making a power grab for the four schools for sheer greed is just insane - he has been working tirelessly for Tibet and has even said he would be a Chinese citizen if only Tibetans were allowed some form of autonomy within their traditional geographic boundaries.

So, here I am, my first experience with a Buddhist group has left me profoundly disappointed. I am now an NKT survivor, who are now reinvented and gaining membership rapidly.

Another thing GKG does not realise is that the profile HHDL has made fertile ground for attracting members to the NKT. He shamelessly bites one of the hands that has fed him. Make no mistake, the WSS have taken the issue far beyond Shugden, the WSS has gotten just plain nasty. They take pride in the fact that they have provoked audiences of HHDL, such provocations are not become of Buddhists. Again I ask - what motivation could he possibly have? Even Tenzin, the man with all the GKG answers cannot answer that one. GKG has taken no interest in anything Tibetan, his shops are full of Made in China junk - the travel mug I bought at Glen Spey fell apart the first time I washed it. He doesn't do himself any favours does he?

It's a terrible pity because most NKT teachers are very genuine people who just want to get on with teaching their students, they don't want to be dragged into this but GKG has not made that possible. I received fantastic dharma teachings from my center, I was heartbroken to leave, but I could not put my head in the sand.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 04:04

Whenever an examination or critique of the darker aspects of Tibetan history is offered, the labels of "communist propaganda" or "red sympathizer" gets tossed at its author, whether it's appropriate to do so or not, irregardless of the fact that there are accounts of Tibet that were written prior to the rise of communism in China, accounts which also offer a rare glimpse into these darker aspects.

A perfect example of the latter is "Beasts, Men and Gods" by Ferdinand Ossendowski, if one can look beyond the fact that it comes across like a romantic travelogue of years gone by.

I'm sure that everyone has heard the following phrase at one time or another --- "the collective karma of society" --- but what is "collective karma" and is it a Buddhist teaching?

The Dalai Lama has stated the following:

"The universe that we inhabit and our shared perception of it are the results of a common karma. Likewise, the places that we will experience in future rebirths will be the outcome of the karma that we share with the other beings living there. The actions of each of us, human or nonhuman, have contributed to the world in which we live. We all have a common responsibility for our world and are connected with everything in it." [1]

This world in which we live is the effect of the group or "collective karma" created by the beings who inhabit it, just as Samsara is its "collective dream", so what is the collective karma of Tibet and it's theocracy prior to Chinese occupation?

The following excerpts are from "Friendly Fuedalism - the Tibet Myth" by Michael Parenti is a good place to start:

Many Buddhists maintain that, before the Chinese crackdown in 1959, old Tibet was a spiritually oriented kingdom free from the egotistical lifestyles, empty materialism, and corrupting vices that beset modern industrialized society. Western news media, travel books, novels, and Hollywood films have portrayed the Tibetan theocracy as a veritable Shangri-La. The Dalai Lama himself stated that "the pervasive influence of Buddhism" in Tibet, "amid the wide open spaces of an unspoiled environment resulted in a society dedicated to peace and harmony. We enjoyed freedom and contentment." [2]

A reading of Tibet's history suggests a somewhat different picture. "Religious conflict was commonplace in old Tibet," writes one western Buddhist practitioner. "History belies the Shangri-La image of Tibetan lamas and their followers living together in mutual tolerance and nonviolent goodwill. Indeed, the situation was quite different. Old Tibet was much more like Europe during the religious wars of the Counterreformation." [3] In the thirteenth century, Emperor Kublai Khan created the first Grand Lama, who was to preside over all the other lamas as might a pope over his bishops. Several centuries later, the Emperor of China sent an army into Tibet to support the Grand Lama, an ambitious 25-year-old man, who then gave himself the title of Dalai (Ocean) Lama, ruler of all Tibet.

His two previous lama "incarnations" were then retroactively recognized as his predecessors, thereby transforming the 1st Dalai Lama into the 3rd Dalai Lama. This 1st (or 3rd) Dalai Lama seized monasteries that did not belong to his sect, and is believed to have destroyed Buddhist writings that conflicted with his claim to divinity. The Dalai Lama who succeeded him pursued a sybaritic life, enjoying many mistresses, partying with friends, and acting in other ways deemed unfitting for an incarnate deity. For these transgressions he was murdered by his priests. Within 170 years, despite their recognized divine status, five Dalai Lamas were killed by their high priests or other courtiers. [4]

For hundreds of years competing Tibetan Buddhist sects engaged in bitterly violent clashes and summary executions. In 1660, the 5th Dalai Lama was faced with a rebellion in Tsang province, the stronghold of the rival Kagyu sect with its high lama known as the Karmapa. The 5th Dalai Lama called for harsh retribution against the rebels, directing the Mongol army to obliterate the male and female lines, and the offspring too "like eggs smashed against rocks... In short, annihilate any traces of them, even their names." [5]

Of course, practitioners and supporters of Tibetan Buddhism take exception to Michael Parenti, where they have tossed the aforementioned labels of "communist propaganda" and "red sympathizer" in his direction, but it doesn't change the fact that these events actually occurred.

It's through their adoption of a "spirit of denial", as well as their motivation behind political agendas, that this "collective karma" continues rolling downhill like a snowball, quickly becoming an unstoppable avalanche of passion and unfulfilled cravings... where wisdom would dictate that when a person is standing in a large enough hole, they should stop digging.

[1] Words of His Holiness XIV Dalai Lama, Chenrezig Project (Lake County, Florida)

[2] Dalai Lama quoted in Donald Lopez Jr., Prisoners of Shangri-La: Tibetan Buddhism and the West (Chicago and London: Chicago University Press, 1998), 205.

[3] Erik D. Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling: Uncovering Corruption at the Heart of Tibetan Buddhism Today (Alaya Press 2005), 41.

[4] Stuart Gelder and Roma Gelder, The Timely Rain: Travels in New Tibet (Monthly Review Press, 1964), 119, 123; and Melvyn C. Goldstein, The Snow Lion and the Dragon: China, Tibet, and the Dalai Lama (University of California Press, 1995), 6-16.

[5] Curren, Buddha's Not Smiling, 50.

Respectfully Submitted by Thomas Canada

Title & Author

Tibetan Theocracy: Collective Karma and the Sprit of Denial

by the Ven. J.M. Dharmakara Boda, Mahabodhi Maitri Mandal in America

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 04:12

Friendoftruth: No thanks are never necessary when one speaks the truth... I have always been a firm believer that one teaches not only by word, but by example.

bengrimwood
27 August 2008 at 04:22

Tenzin - I thought the official GKG figure of Tibetans affected was 4 million. That was what young Kelsang Pema was saying wasn't it? Has it now been downgraded to merely hundreds of thousands in the NKT internal rules? GKGs exploitation of such a young devotee to front the WSS was nothing but despicable. They take a 2 week mud collecting trip to Dharamasala after decades solely in the West and proclaim themselves authorities on happenings in Dharamasala. Shame, shame.

Again, I have no problem with Shugden, people should worship him/take refuge in him howerver they see fit. I have merely adopted HHDLs view on it because I believe him to be a lot more genuine than GKG after having witnessed the latters duplicity directly.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 04:30

bengrimwood: I was wondering about the same thing. Maybe 4 million was just a misquote or a rough estimate of the number of people who have have been influenced by the teachings, though not neccessarily Shugden practitioners per se.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 04:43

Four million is an ultra conservative concensus of the Uralic Utalic_Urasian census of Shri Dorje Shugden Practioners, Globally.

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 04:51

Don't take it the wrong way, but who actually undertook this census? What was its control criteria? I'm just curious because the number seems high.

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 05:12

Speaking of Duplicity as your first hand experience. Tell me why the Dalia Lama's brother.Thubten Norbu and family stole some two million of the 1999 Kalachakra Proceeds. Now the Norbu family has been banned from the Tibetan Mongolian Cultural Center due to their unvirteous acts of greed and lying . All of which is a matter of record within the Monroe County Court Record/Bloomington, Indiana USA

Now that is just the way the whole Dalia Lama's family skims the cream off the top as they and their kind have stolen for centuries with glee.

There is no escuse for this Lama to be allowed to continue to flaunt the law that presides across the entire planet and that is Freedom to believe and practice one's own beliefs without fear of molestation,threat or otherwise imtimidation from others.

This Lama has repeatedly for all of his recognizable reincarnations carried conflicting attitudes towards the Shugden Practioners, from building Temples to Shri Dorje Shugden and creating images by his own hands of Dorje Shugden.To flaying Dorje Shugden Monks alive over several days, and grinding their monastery to literal dust in 1933+_-[Toyo Bunko/The Great 5th Dl].

Now at a time when all of ur collective resources should be being applied to real problems and issues in the world and ways to make people more comfortable instead of harassing and falsely accusing innocent people living on the fringe of economic survivabilty of ridiculous accusations.

This lama never had anything even remotely resembling a social welfare system or education system for the masses in any of his administarions over the last 350-400 years.

Until now! One would think with all the AID to the exiled Tibetans that the Dalia Lama had been sustaining his people in the first place. In actuality as it is well documented, Shangria has a much reality as the Hollywood Moguls Estate the movie Lost Horizons had to any kind of tangible reality. in Tibet consisting up until 1959+-,(-95% of it's population was no better than a slave and no worse than a erf.

He is called to the High Courts of New Delhi this next month to answer charges of his direct violation of others Right to their own beliefs as in the Indian, Tibetan Constitutions have been directly broken by this Dalia lama

He has no virtue today and who knows? Maybe tomorrow he will try to regain his integrity by virteous acts rather than being a devisive liar.

He has no right to do what he is attempting to accomplish at this very moment, None whatsoever. We need unity not tolerate deviseness from this lama..

Geronimo
27 August 2008 at 05:29

Professor Thubten Norbu.Indiana University/Uralic Utalic Department of Eurasian Studies / Professor Colin Turbull/ Antropologist George Washington University/Washinton DC/ co authored /"Tibet"

Source /

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 05:36

It might be a good idea to publish a link to the census study. I've noticed quite a few comments on different sites that were critical of the 4 million estimate.

TL
27 August 2008 at 06:18

Hi Ben,

I don't mean to be disrespectful to Kelsang Pema, but she ain't that young.

I have watched various media interviews with her and also note that she's incredibly articulate, smart and compassionate. Absolutely everything she has advised has been backed up with hard fact. Her contacts are vast and I understand that the purpose of her trips to India were to confirm what had already been discovered. That's why most of the journalists who talk with her report favourably because they discover that her words match reality and respect her honesty and transparency.

It will take take one smart investigative journalist to uncover this incredible story. I studied and worked as a journalist for many years and what the Dalai Lama is doing is the story of the decade and will be a sorry part of history for a very long time.

On the other hand, there has been some benefit that has come from the negative actions of the Dalai Lama - it has increased my and others faith in Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso and Dorje Shugden a billion times over.

All Love and Peace

TL

KA
27 August 2008 at 07:10

It's true, what TL says above, that if an investigative journalist were to get their hands on this story and look into what's actually going on behind the mystique of the Dalai Lama it would be "the story of the decade."

A French TV station did some investigative work: http://www.france24.com/en/20080808-dalai-lama-demons-india-...

but they got a number of their facts wrong, for example repeating the Dalai Lama's false claim that Shugden practitioners are supported by the Chinese. Nevertheless, the video shows directly the signs on the front of shops, restaurants, and hospitals that deny entry to people who practice this Buddhist tradition. The evidence is undeniable ... the Dalai Lama has turned the Tibetan Refugee communities into an apartheid state ... complete with brick-and-mortar walls dividing communities into those who follow this practice and those who oppress them. See http://www.westernshugdensociety.org/reports/dorje-shugden-b... for some more pictures.

Outrageous!

Dharmakara
27 August 2008 at 07:29

The Shugden controvery is only the latest in a long line of controversies that have plagued the Dalai Lama. My all-time favorite one was when he declared that homosexuality was sexual misconduct.

There were many of us who objected to his statement, Mahayana and Theravada alike, not because we were on one side or the other of the "pink minefield", as it has come to be known, but because he was foolish enough to state that the Buddha himself had declared homosexuality to be misconduct, when in fact he was putting words into the mouth of the Buddha that were never spoken.

He uttered this statement about homosexuality the first time in San Francisco, where a gay and lesbian Buddhist conference was being held at the time, and the reporters who heard this refused to let the matter drop.

The Dalai Lama was then asked, "Where did the Buddha say this?", and he replied "I don't know," which was quickly followed by a second question, "When did the Buddha say this?", and again he replied "I don't know."

It's hard to find humor in his attempt to put words in the mouth of the Buddha, long enough to do so as a means to justify cultural bias, but there is a comical pseudo-Confucian analect which comes to mind: "It is better to shut one's mouth and appear ignorant, than open it and remove all doubt."

Should we have confidence in the veracity of the Dalai Lama's statements about Dorje Shugden and his reasons behind the ban?

I'm not overly impressed with his apologetics, especially since we are also talking about the same man who feined ignorance when confronted with the centuries of gender bias and poor treatment of women within Tibetan culture and society.

TL
27 August 2008 at 13:43

Any journos out there willing to expose the Dalai Lama, Winner of the Noble Peace Prize who, as KA said, has turned the Tibetan Refugee committee into an apartheid state?

IT is outrageous and would be a sensational yarn that would pervade all other media worldwide.

It's only a matter of time.

TL

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 13:45

Ben -

you're a dupe, son, i'm sorry to say. sounds like you've got an issue with NKT anyway, strongly influencing your comments, and that isn't the topic under discussion here.

so you're wondering how anyone can possibly question the Dalai Lama, seeing as he's so holy and all? can you see that this is pretty ironic, considering all that stuff you were saying about GKG? btw - you didn't answer Tenzin's question: what, precisely, has the Dalai Lama accomplished for Tibet in all these years?

if you want more, non-Shugden-issue, evidence of this man's duplicity and arrogance, google "Karmapa controversy". if you know any relatively senior Tibetan monks who aren't fanatical DL apologists, ask them about his daughter, and where her mum, his pretty young "oracle" has got to. research his brother's arms dealing in Taiwan. try to find out about who poisoned Dagom Rinpoche. ask around about the Society for the Elimination of the Internal and External Enemies of Tibet.

Holy man? he's a politician, and one of the very worst of that ilk. he's duped you, and millions of others like you.

time to wake up.

TL
27 August 2008 at 14:20

WOW, thanks KA for referring me to that report on France 24 TV.

How sad is that. Apartheid in Buddhist Land. Cracks at the Heart of the Tibetan Community.

You're right, there was some misreporting but it's a step in the right direction - particularly the reporters comment that it's taboo to criticise the Dalai Lama and if you do you're considered a Chinese spy.

TL

bengrimwood
27 August 2008 at 15:52

We all have a strong influence here or we wouldn't be on this blog and I have no issue with the NKT, only it's leader inflicting his beliefs on unsuspecting Westerners and not giving them the freedom to choose. You cannot deny my personal experiences. What has the Dalai Lama done for Tibet? He was worked tirelessly to have his people return there, finally his envoys are speaking with the Chinese. Why don't you consult one of the hundreds of pro-Tibetan NGOs who he has been working with? In the meantime, GKG has just been aggressively proselytising his particular practice in the West. I am open minded to accept that HHDL has his faults as much as GKG. So in that case let me use a popular addage, people in glass houses shouldn't throw stones - that applies to both sides. Yes - The Dalai Lama is an evil man, everything he says is lies and everything GKG says is as blissful nectar. HHDL lives a lavish hedonistic lifestyle due to all the money he steals from his people - he cares not for Tibet but is a power hungry madman who wears womens underwear at weekends. Amnesty International and all the pro-Tibetan NGOs are deeply mistaken. His family are all evil too and the Nobel Peace Prize Committee are all obviously ignorant idiots. There was no connection at all between the Dorje Shugden Devotees Charitable and Religious Society and the murders of Lobsang Gyatso and his entourage despite the Dharamasala chief of police making the connection (he has obviously been bought by the Dalai Lama). Black is white and high is low. The WSS media machine are all regular readers of the New Satesmen? Or are they instructed to be alerted to Shugden news articles to spread their propaganda as far and wide as possible. As far as the Yellow Book being used to denounce Shugden, if this was the case, why was there a 20 year difference between HHDL coming across this work/suspending his Shugden practice and him denouncing finally Shugden in 1996? Taking 20 years to make a decision that would have the repercussions that they have had are not the actions of a dictator, but someone who seriously considers his decisions before he makes them. If he was so power hungry, why did he not denounce Shugden and make his vicious attempts to consolidate power earlier rather than wait until his 70s?!! Why has he not destroyed GKGs reputation once and for all publically, which he has the media platform to do? He has been on Western TV recently and has certainly been provoked enough. Why would such a tyrant show such restraint in crushing his enemies? There is such close mindedness on either side. This issue is so highly polarizing and I don't see anyones minds being changed. I am grateful for what I have seen on this blog, being surrounded by Shugden proponents has left me feeling a bit outnumbered but has been a learning experience! I respect everyones views and thanks for input. Lets see what the Indian courts decide shall we - my personal bet is that it will be the same as what Amnesty International found when their precious time and resources were wasted back in 1996, i.e. nothing. If the opposite occurs, maybe my mind will change and I hope that if the Indian courts do find nothing actionable that the WSS may lighten up a bit. Anyway, I am now turning my mind will turn to wood on this issue in that I will not let it disrupt me any further (apart from one last thing I have to do this week). It's been fun debating but it's too much of a distraction to my life and practice, I have a 6 week old to father and he doesn't need a Dad with an agitated mind. I HONESTLY hope everyone gets what they want and everyone stays happy, I really, honestly do. I am very deeply sorry for those people who have suffered as a result of the Shugden denouncement, I wouldn't deny that this has occurred, but it is also my belief that the denouncement was made for the greater, long term good - I hope Tibetan Buddhism can find its feet again for the good of its people and the hope that one day they may be able to return home and yes - hopefully if that were the case Tibetan culture would be overhauled to meet the modern age with reagrd to social equity and democracy. My opponents in this debate have also been my friends and teachers and I fully respect their views. Finally an apology if anyone has been offended by any of my words. They are just an opinion. With respect, peace and love.

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 17:16

Dear lady from Devon,

(you posted the same questions on the second blog where many people have answered them. I will just repeat some of what I said there and you can go look for the other answers).

"... a very complicated society than a person who has dedicated his 14 lifetimes to having the conciousness to keep coming back for the benefit of all sentient beings."

Hmmm. The problem is not with the Dalai Lama taking rebirth after rebirth. The problem is that he is using his political power to ban a religious practice -- the power build-up is too great and there is no recourse whatsoever for anyone to disagree with him. Surely you have to admit there is something wrong with that? This wonderful YouTube video brings what Dorje Shugden practitioners are facing into sharp relief:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sjsY3UgFto

"It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western."

But they are not. A minority of Shugden practitioners are Western. Most Shugden practitioners live in India, Mongolia, China, Nepal and of course Tibet itself.

"If you ever have the opportunity to see the Oracle in trance you will see for your own eyes that these spirits are very real,"

I have seen oracles in trance, it is an impressive sight. Maybe this is why the Dalai Lama relies upon the Nechung oracle for his political decisions.

"and not just a little idea to hook an energy onto."

I do not rely upon Dorje Shugden through the medium of an oracle at all. Generally, as a daily practice, he has never been relied upon in that way -- the oracle of Dorje Shugden used to be summoned only to ask big questions like how to help the Dalai Lama escape from Tibet.

To my mind, the time for oracles has passed as they are too open to abuse and corruption (as with the Nechung state oracle's wildly differing and harmful political pronouncements on the subject of the Buddha Dorje Shugden).

I certainly don't need a medium to rely upon Dorje Shugden any more than I need one to rely upon Buddha Shakyamuni. I have been relying upon Dorje Shugden for many years and to me he is infinitely more than "a little idea to hook an energy onto", but thanks anyway for your attempts to educate me on my Protector.

"There are frequent Shugden supporters in Mcleod seeking help because when they try to stop his practise,there are many side effects such as nightmares palpatations and other disturbing illness's."

As someone commented yesterday to someone else, you might want to read the Crucible by Arthur Miller. These supersitious ideas are wrong and dangerous. The only nightmares and palpitations needing help are the ones created by the Dalai Lama's very real ban of Dorje Shugden and the persecution and ostracism it has engendered.

I know you and many others mean well, but it is hard to face up to the fact that the Dalai Lama might actually be wrong. However, the truth of his actions is coming out and there will be fewer and fewer straws to grasp at in terms of justifying his terrible behaviour on this issue. All he needs to do is lift the ban and give religious freedom and we could all breathe a huge sigh of relief.

Lyara
27 August 2008 at 17:23

dear Ben, the basic premise you make for all your subsequent opinions is that it is Geshe Kelsang Versus the Dalai Lama.

But this premise is incorrect, which makes most of your subsequent opinions irrelevant to this particular discussion.

This issue is not about "GKG versus the DL" but "All Dorje Shugden practitioners (including the greatest masters of the Gelugpa tradition and many hundreds of thousands of practitioners in India, Tibet, China, Mongolia, Nepal and the West) Versus the Dalai Lama".

shieu hoong
27 August 2008 at 18:43

"It is a very telling thing that Shugden supporters are virtually all western. "

interesting. and how did u arrive at that empirical statement? by the folks blogging n posting here? in eastern countries like india, nepal, mongolia, china, tibet, most of the educated/computer literate practitioners are the ordained people - monks n nuns, who live in monasteries n nunneries. which are usually located in isolated areas. and only a handful speak english. and of those numbers, not all have access to the internet. or have blackberrys tucked in their robes.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 19:03

Ben -

respect for your honesty, and i accept that your intentions are good, as you say.

to answer one point: there's no way the DL could have got away with this while many of the great Shugden masters were alive. most of them died in the 80's, however. so why didn't he ban it then? because he didn't need to. it wasn't until he needed a scapegoat to blame subsequent to his handing Tibet to the PRC by unilaterally, without consulting the "democratic" people of Tibet, giving up independence for "middle-way" autonomy at Strasbourg in 1995 that his "oracles" gave him the perfect person to blame, his old enemy Dorje Shugden. kill two birds with one stone, i suppose he must have thought.

so why increase the activity around the ban now, 12 years later? because otherwise his people might notice that he's singularly failed to make any capital whatsoever out of their best chance in a century - the Olympics.

and whatever your "one last thing" is, please, for your sake and everyone else's, let it be a good and harmless karma, or don't do it.

Dougal
27 August 2008 at 19:06

that's just one theory. there are plenty of others.

Vajrapani
27 August 2008 at 22:08

Dear Ben,

it is sad to witness that you and the other 'survivors' are all suffering immensely, bathing in your own negativities and unending blaming, while those that enjoy the pure lineage of Trijiang Rinpoche and Je Pabonkhapa, and receiving the blessings of Dorje Shugden, are positive, kind, considerate, calm, peaceful, open-minded, and are really happy.

Perhaps you should really start doing yourself and your family a great favour and begin studying Buddha's teaching, then learn to gain some personal experience through sincere practice, before blaming others for your suffering and (as you yourself admit) very disturbed mind.

Buddha gives beautiful advice on how to understand the nature of mind, how to generate virtuous states of mind, and how to make yourself and others happy. Perhaps you should really try and investigate these jewel-like instructions and learn to put them into practice, - instead of indulging in your delusions that are in actual fact the ONLY source of disturbance to the mind (according to Buddha himself).

Blaming others for your suffering is completely contradictory to Buddha's teachings. The only one to blame is the enemy of our own delusions. This was taught by the Buddha. And by blaming others (Dorje Shugden practicioners) that they shorten his lifespan etc, the DL is contradicting Buddhadharma. Saying that Dorje Shugden is an evil spirit is also contradicting Buddhadharma, because no being or object is bad, good, evil, benevolent, or harmful from its own side. What they are depends totally upon what the mind makes of them. Think about this deeply, then you will see for yourself what kind of hogwash this is. Please give yourself a shake and wake up, don't believe that kind of nosense that is so easily refutable.

I so enjoyed the demonstrations in Nantes, this experience really immensely deepened my faith in this beautiful lineage. On the other hand it was quite ourageous, shameful, and shocking to witness the DLs follower's response to our joyful and peaceful demonstration. It was in many ways to say the least very 'un-Buddhist'! From what I saw and heard from the DLs followers there made me even more determined to do everything possible to help uphold this pure lineage of Je Tsongkhapa.

I am so grateful that I have the great good fortune to study and practice actual Buddhism through the kindness of the Venerable Geshe Kelsang Gyatso. The Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden helps us to become wisw and good examples for this world. Even the Chief of Police at the site said how he loved our good example, and that he had never before experienced such wonderful, well-behaved, and joyful demonstration. He wanted one of our placards as souvenier...

Wishing you peace of mind and no more blaming others, - how wonderful that would be....for the benefit of all!

Vajrapani

gimilisaxe
27 August 2008 at 23:27

Friendoftruth: you did a wonderful job of destroying the credibility of your friend Beggar. I will accept that you have countered the idea that dorjeshugden.com endorses a connection with the PRC. I do wonder what crazy wisdom it is that considers it a compassionate act to leave delusional ravings up on the website. Is that of benefit to Beggar? Is the propagation of confusion to others beneficial?

Perhaps Shugden practitioners can't help it if the PRC uses Shugden to promote division amongst Tibetans. It is certainly true that they do as I have read PRC endorsements in several articles. Here's one.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/4757125.stm

But it requires participation from Shugden lamas/monks/practitioners for the PRC to make anything of it. It didn't get to the point that a British journalist noticed it and wrote about it with only one-sided propaganda from the PRC.

Be that as it may. One thing no one has explained to me; why would an American Shugden lama, a directer of a center, attack my teacher for no other reason than he was not Shugden? We are not Gelugpas. We consider the DL a nice guy but have no lineage connections to him, no practice commitments from him, no samayas to support him in any way.

As I said before; using practices to attack and harm others isn't Buddhist in any way. You can give a robe a bell a dorje and a mantra to Osama bin Laden but that won't make him a Buddhist. You all can equivocate all you want about what Shugden is, what you have and haven't done, how the DL has tied your hands and taped your mouths so you can't do practice but you can't explain away what I know has been done.

Lyara: As for Arthur Miller and his plays; if I wanted to form a world view based on fictional literature, theater or drama I wouldn't need Vajrayana practice. I would just turn on my TV and get a season ticket to the theater. I absolutely do not believe in any kind of superstitions. But if you don't think tantric practitioners are working with and generating some very serious energies, that can be used beneficially or negatively, then you had better run as fast as you can away from Vajrayana practice and practitioners. You have not been well informed. Everyone breaks samaya I'm afraid. But using the Buddha Dharma to cause harm, apart from an extreme need for self defense, is possibly the blackest karma that one can create. Or so I have been instructed.

May all sentient beings have happiness and the causes of happiness.

May all sentient beings be free of suffering and the causes of suffering.

May the most auspicious circumstances for the ultimate enlightenment of all sentient beings arise immediately.

Sarwa da mangalum.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 01:30

Gimli's Axe -

"I absolutely do not believe in any kind of superstitions."

um, sorry, pal - yes, you do. you've stated here that you believe your Teacher was psychically "attacked" by a Buddhist lama invoking an enlightened being's power - because he doesn't practise Shugden!

now, i'm sorry, but that's crazy talk. even if you hold such a fantastic worldview, it still doesn't make sense: Buddhas are compassionate - they don't hurt people. either you or, i hate to say it, your Teacher is badly mistaken.

but i don't think that talking about such things helps the discussion here. the point is, simply, that the Dalai Lama is engaged in a very harmful campaign of religious repression, denying the basic human freedom of belief that many people feel is fundamental to a civilised society. many, many people are suffering as a result of his ban.

that's the bottom line. all this talk of Chinese spies and ghosts and goblins just really doesn't help. i enjoy Tolkein too, but let's try to keep it real, ok?

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 01:56

and another thing - just whose fault is it if the PRC exploits this schism? who created the schism in the first place? not Shugden practitioners; the DL made them his enemies, not the other way around. you can't blame Shugden practitioners if the PRC now wants to capitalise on his folly. believe me, we'd rather *not* have any political body trying to hijack our religious cause.

he started this - and he can finish it, too, if he so chose. we pray that he will, and soon. in the meantime, he's no-one to blame but himself for the problems he's now experiencing.

gimilisaxe
28 August 2008 at 02:21

Dougal, you can believe whatever you want. Smarmy dismissal doesn't do much for your argument. Nor does your sophistry about "Buddhas." Obviously the practitioners who use mind for selfish reasons are not Buddhas are they? You can pretend that tantric siddhis are only used positively. You can pretend that shamanism isn't a part of Tibetan Buddhism or that it has no reality (I don't know what excuse you're using for that) and you can pretend that tantric practice can't be bent towards witchcraft if you want to. But you would be full of it wouldn't you?

It also doesn't do you much credit to put words in my mouth like "chinese spies" (never said that) and "ghosts and goblins" (never said that either). It reveals your level of intellectual honesty pretty clearly.

As does your remark about my handle. Very mature of you. If you can't respond like an adult then don't respond to me...pal.

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 05:31

How is Douglas saying "Buddhas are compassionate - they don't hurt people" sophistry?!

I don't think Douglas was being dismissive, he was just being common sensical. And I don't think he was putting words into your mouth... he was quoting what has been said already in this thread. So I don't think it is correct or fair to insult his intellectual honesty.

Anyway, I appreciate Douglas's attempts to keep this in the realm of common sense. To briefly answer your points, Shamanism is pre-tibetan Buddhism from the ancient bon religion of Tibet. Actual Tantric Buddhism is part of Mahayana Buddhism and therefore cannot be used for witchcraft as it is motivated by the wish to attain enlightenment as quickly as possible to liberate all living beings from suffering.

But can we just agree not to argue. For me, the main point which is that the Dalai Lama has banned a very well loved spiritual tradition and we wish he would lift the ban. That pretty much sums it up.

gimilisaxe
28 August 2008 at 06:17

Tenzin, Dougal;

Dougal didn't quote me because I didn't say those words did I? I also didn't say my teacher was physically attacked nor did I say that the attack was initiated by invoking an "enlightened being." You both seem to have difficulty being honest. To say that tantric practice, which brings realization of the true nature of mind, cannot be used for witchcraft and that Vajrayana Buddhism as practiced today has no elements of shamanism is just a lie. An absurdity really. Tell it to someone who hasn't practiced for ten years.

I should also point out that Dougal slighted my teacher in spite of all the bragging by Shugden practitioners of how respectful of other traditions you are.

Your problem with the Dalai Lama is just that. Your problem. For me, the main point is I have encountered dishonesty and disrespect here for simply stating my experience. I think I've learned all I need to know about Dorje Shugden right here on this thread.

Friendoftruth
28 August 2008 at 06:36

gimilisaxe,

Sorry I only now saw your response to my message.

I just can't find what you said about your Teacher being attacked by a Shugden follower. What happened?

Obviously I am sorry for that, I do not agree on attacks on anybody.

But I don't understand what is the connection with our subject. As you know, there are many many Gelugpas out there. That some misbehave is only human. The subject here is not the private error of one person, but a systematic, years long religious persecution from a person endowed with huge political power.

But again, I'm sorry for any problem your Teacher suffered.

About my friend Beggar, I would not have said anything in his absence had I not publicly opposed him many times in the Forum. I agree with you about the confusion. Yeah, he probably has some type of crazy wisdom, but I still don't agree with it precisely because I don't see the benefit of sowing confusion in people's minds.

Vajrapani
28 August 2008 at 08:17

dear gimilisaxe,

so sorry to observe your immense suffering of anger and blaming. Perhaps you should really start (after so many years) studying and practicing Buddhadharma to help find relief from your unhappy mind.

Vajrayana cannot harm by definition, it can only benefit. The 'harm' that you describe is not from Vajrayana practice, but from deluded actions. If what you say is true, then we must also say that Buddhism can harm. But it cannot harm by definition, - all Dharma teaches is non-harm. Those harmful actions and their consequences that you try to prove here are not from within Buddhism. They are coming from deluded minds that act in contradiction to Buddha's instructions. That is neither Buddhism nor Vajrayana (part of Buddhism).

So, try and be honest and admit that you do not yet quite understand the definition of Buddhism or Buddhist practice. Make your mind peaceful through meditation practice, and then allocate some meaningful time to deeply contemplate Buddhas intention. Then everything will become clear and calm.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 09:07

Gimli's Axe -

ok, i was being flippant, and you took offense: i apologise - i didn't intend to upset you. i was trying to keep the tone light, whilst making a serious point. but i agree with you: my tone was out of line.

i certainly didn't mean to slight your Teacher, or to put words in your mouth (i did make fun of your handle, however - sorry). my point was, and is, that the event you reported - your Teacher being attacked (psychically - not physically) through Buddhist ritual, specifically through prayers to the Wisdom Buddha Dorje Shugden, cannot have happened, for reasons others have given above. therefore, either you are misrepresenting what your Teacher told you, or your Teacher is mistaken. by saying this, i'm not belittling or insulting either of you.

the purpose of my comment was to try to keep this debate focussed on the main issue: religious freedom. you can see, i hope, how most ordinary people reading your original comment about this would see it as highly superstitious and, even, somewhat crazy. this isn't the place to discuss such things. this debate revolves around the simple fact of the Dalai Lama's abuse of the religious freedom of the Tibetan people, which is now affecting those in the West also, and everyone, Buddhist and non-Buddhist, can understand this.

so once again, i apologise for any offence my flippancy caused: that was inconsiderate of me.

maia
28 August 2008 at 12:53

The only buddhists i have met who have shouted and screamed, been frightening to others, had to be held back by others cause of their violent feelings, the only ones i have met who have behaved in a way that is not wrathful in the enlightened sense, but fear and anger mulched into aggressive actions, are shugden supporters...

i think that says it all, there were also tibetans there who were appalled at the behaviour of these people, who were all white.

it was my first introduction to shugden supporters, and it was very frightening, I have no idea why there is so much fighting for something that is ment to bring help to all sentient beings, how people who justify aggression in the name of any diety is awful, it is in my mind not so much different to any fundamentalist group.

however i have never heard the Dalai Lama do or say anything that is not for the benefit of all beings, including when the question of the shugden supporters was asked of him in the teachings in nottingham.

he said people can do what they want, that is free will, but he has a moral responsibility....

he must know something more than your average practitioner in my mind, as he has been incarnated 14 times.? In my mind there is more understanding of that world if you have the strength of intention and skill of conciousness to come back over and over again. But to do so with love and peace. Well there is the skill.

I have not seen this skill employed by the shugden supporters i have met, though i am sure that there must be some who are not so angry.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 13:58

mala -

"The only buddhists i have met who have shouted and screamed, been frightening to others, had to be held back by others cause of their violent feelings, the only ones i have met who have behaved in a way that is not wrathful in the enlightened sense, but fear and anger mulched into aggressive actions, are shugden supporters... "

really? when? i've attended most of the WSS demonstrations so far, including the one in Nottingham, and have seen no such behaviour at any time from the Shugden practitioners. "had to be held back by others cause of their violent feelings" - when did you see this, please - precisely?

on the other hand, i assume you weren't in Manhattan, or you'd have seen the effect on his supporters of the Dalai Lama's words "for the benefit of all beings, including when the question of the shugden supporters was asked of him". please - see for yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S25fxwmDGCE

lastly, can you prove the Dalai Lama knows "something more than your average practitioner in my mind, as he has been incarnated 14 times"? does that give him the right to act in such a totalitarian, dictatorial way, causing such harm and deep division?

i am sorry. i know you love the Dalai Lama and hold onto him as some kind of Great White Hope - but the truth is, sadly, very, very different.

Dougal
28 August 2008 at 14:33

mala -

do, please, read the excellent comments by friendoftruth to Mr Gorter's 3rd blog post, here:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/the-faith-column/2008/08/d...

i think he explains,, in the most reasonable and compassionate way, just why we are calling the Dalai Lama's good name into question - with all that that action implies - and also the great pain that this responsibility has cost, and is costing, many of us.

Rabga
28 August 2008 at 14:39

Dougal, the whole world knows the truth about the Dalai lama. It doesn't need either the PRC or people like you to describe. It seems like either you are a young and less informed person or you came to this tibetan and the dougal business quite lately. I was present at the Dalai lama's teaching at drepung where he strongly commended against practicing shugten. Now that one must know the difference between telling people not to practice it and banning it. At that time, he also said it is for the individual to decide. (This shows he didn't ban it) And why insult him when the societies decided to boycott it? But in whole, I feel pity on the fact that you are less informed on this whole situation. Ask the Tibetan Government In Exile the history of Doje Shugten and why the Dalai Lama suggested practicing against it.

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 15:02

Rabga, that about sums it up... ask the TGIE the history of Dorje Shugden!! What do they have to do with the spiritual practice of many thousands of practitioners? They are the government and should not be involved in religious affairs. Imagine if Gordon Brown decided to wipe out a religious tradition and someone told the members of that tradition, "oh, just ask Gordon Brown's government the history of Dorje Shugden" and then just go home and obey. There would be a riot. In the circumstances, the Dorje Shugden protestors are a model of peacefulness, patience and restraint -- in every place they have demonstrated, the police forces have praised them for their good conduct. The same of course cannot be said for the rioting followers of the Dalai Lama in NYC. If you have not seen that footage mentioned by Dougal above, I recommend it. I also feel that Dougal is far more informed about this situation than you might be because he is also, like the rest of us, living through it first-hand.

Rabga
28 August 2008 at 15:56

Tenzin, first of all, it is really stupid of you to say that the government should not be involved in religion affairs of it's people. Imagine what the consequences would be had the government of India not interrupted during Godra incident about four years ago where groups of hindu and Muslims clashed? In fact, it is the duty of the ruling community to get involved in such problems. Remember, this issue is not only confined to religion alone. It is also a political matter. And for your kind information, Gordon Brown is not at all a relevant example. Your "Just go home and obey" comment is a laughing matter. Can you kindly remind us an incident where the Dalai lama told us to "go home and obey"? Lastly, but surely, I must thank you for your childish comment. By the way, how old are you?

Tenzin
28 August 2008 at 17:23

Hello Rabga.

I'm probably a lot older than you think!

And the Dorje Shugden protestors did enjoy the protection of the NYPC and Feds at the recent riot against them by the Dalai Lama's followers ... I think there could have been some serious violence without it. So governments of course can interfere to stop clashes.

But Shugden monks in the monasteries were not clashing with other monks. Lay Shugden practitioners were not clashing with their friends and neighbours. Everyone was living together peacefully. My point is that the government has no right to carry out an unlawful and unconstitutional ban of a religious practice. This issue is a religious matter affecting the religious lives of hundreds of thousands of people. The Dalai Lama has chosen to make it part of his politics and that is the problem.

There are some very good explanations about this on the third blog of this series. Perhaps we could finish our discussion on there when you have had a chance to read them. Thank you.

Robert Thomas
29 August 2008 at 14:31

TibetforTibetans is mis-quoting and changing the meaning of the Amnesty text. It is not that "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses", but that "None of the material AI has received contains evidence of abuses which fall within AI's mandate for action".

The meaning of "actionable human rights abuses" is explained as " (the) linked criteria of state accountability and the exercise of state force, neither of which could clearly be identified within the CTA context" because TGIE is not a "state". The Amnesty statement therefore “neither asserts nor denies the validity of the allegations against the CTA (Central Tibetan Administration)” (ref Human Rights in Global Perspective, Routelidge ISBN 0-415-30410-5).

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:02

t4t -

the CBI Wanted List contains no reference to Shugden whatsoever.

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:02

on the CBI website you referenced.

Dougal
29 August 2008 at 15:36

rabga -

nobody else has posted this in response to your claim, so:

you said: "This shows he didn't ban it"

what's this then? - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xqsrHiSa7Zc

having been at Drepung for one address in which the Dalai Lama made one of his less angry and emphatic "recommendations" neither makes you an authority on the subject nor does it prove he never made a ban. the video footage above proves that he DID make a ban.

your, and others', staggering - it seems almost wilful - myopia on this issue is what gives the Dalai Lama the opportunity to continue to act unopposed.

we are not so blind however - we've experienced it directly and we've made it our priority to educate ourselves thoroughly on this issue so that we know what we're dealing with.

you said: "the whole world knows the truth about the Dalai lama".

it will soon.

Lucy James
30 August 2008 at 04:38

I know Geezer has sabotaged this entire conversation (and the same with Meindert Gorter's other blogs) with his spam but I think it is good that it looks like no one is responding and stooping to his level.

The best way to deal with Geezer and other trolls or spammers is probably just to report them to the New Statesman. It says on their contact page:

To report comments on articles or to make a complaint about New Statesman content please email: comments@newstatesman.co.uk

Douglas Chalmers
30 August 2008 at 13:51

#geezer: "Dear friends, family and ex-sangha..."

"Do you love me?" LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lOiUPl5GjTE

Lyara
30 August 2008 at 20:52

Whenever the Dalai Lama is questioned, the smear campaign against the NKT kicks into full gear. For a refutation of the allegations against it quoted above, please see

http://www.NewKadampaTruth.org

Thank you.

Dharmakara
31 August 2008 at 05:18

Douglas Chalmers (a.k.a. Dick Charmer, Southern Swan, Fong of the Inland) is an online pariah who has spilled his bile and poor behavior on several other websites, including Get Up blogs, where the following advice in regard to him was offered: "Just ignore him. I wish he would get the mental health care that he so desperately needs."

He could also be this "Geezer" character because it appears that Chalmers also talks to his other personalities that he creates.

If you ever encounter him, please follow Tenzin's lead and report him to the blog/comments moderator of the site.

dechen
01 September 2008 at 16:59

I don't know much about the deity Dorje Shugden and don't want to upset any of its followers, so I am very sorry if I end up doing this, please forgive me.

Suppose if the saying of H.H. Dalai Lama about the practice of Shugden is true. Then we would probably not know in which ways obstacles manifest for the Tibetan cause and the health of H.H. Dalai Lama (as stated it would in the article). Could the continued practice of Shugden manifest like discontent practitioners who feels that they must go against this request:

Could the wish to voice strong critique towards a great bodhisattva like H.H. Dalai Lama, not come from practicing of Shugden? Would the practitioner know for sure, that this is not the case.

Could the angry thoughts of the practitioner towards H.H. Dalai Lama and those who impose laws against Dojre Shugden practice not also comes from the practicing of Shugden.

What is the result of these thoughts and critique. Does it benefit the Tibetan cause. Does it benefit the health of H.H. Dalai Lama.

Maybe we should check to see if the protector practice makes us do benefit for sentient beings. Destroying peoples trust in an authentic being and bodhisattva like H.H. Dalai Lama, is not of benefit for beings – it brings the opposite – to the many people who does not even know what a deity practice involves, but just focus on generating a positive mind. Maybe we should check our own practice to see if it makes us more peaceful and tolerant or the opposite.

Some would argue here that it is H.H. Dalai Lama, who is not tolerant – Then I would say, that either H.H. Dalai Lama still has something to work with himself (which I don't think so) or maybe he can see the effect of the practice of Shugden better than most of us practitioners – In either case it is very basic in Buddhism not to criticize a bodhisattva or even our enemies. Please check out “The 37 practices of a Bodhisattva”. I don't think that we can go against Mahayana teachings even though we have a Vajrayana deity practice – no matter which deity we practice.

If we have a deity practice, we definitely have Vajrayana vows and therefore should not disclose the nature of our practice to anyone. Therefore I see no reason to make articles about it, as it could be seen as a violation of the vows one have.

(As I said in the beginning, I don't know much about Dorje Shugden or Buddhism, so excuse me for any mistakes or disharmony created, since it was not intended)

Regards,

Dechen

Dougal
01 September 2008 at 18:53

Dechen -

if you're intention is good, then no apology is necessary.

your basic premise is one that is very commonly held, and therefore worthy of discussion: if one accepts the DL as "a great bodhisattva", then it is wrong to voice dissent over his actions, especially because many people *do* have such a belief, or at least they view him as a good person and the most well-known Buddhist, and such speech will destroy their faith.

you are right that there is a great danger of damage being done to people's faith, both in the DL and in Buddhism in general.

the question a Buddhist must ask themselves, thn, is this: is the harm that will be done by speaking out greater than the harm that will be done if I remain silent? if so, then a Bodhisattva will accept defeat and say nothing. on the other hand, if not, then that Bodhisattva, in accordance with his or her vows, *must* speak out.

this does not mean, as many people believe, that the dissenters are necessarily motivated by anger. even the Buddhas act in a wrathful way when appropriate, out of their boundless compassion for living beings. to mistake such actions as in some way unBuddhist is to mistake them; it is inevitable, and a shame, that this will happen: who is to blame? the Bodhisattva, or the delusion in the mind of the suffering being whose action provoked the wrath?

of course, this is unconscionable to those who have blind faith in the DL: unless they are truly courageous they will inevitably feel attacked, and may resort to angry actions themselves in the defence of their "great bodhisattva". this is so sad, so terrible.

you asked: "What is the result of these thoughts and critique. Does it benefit the Tibetan cause. Does it benefit the health of H.H. Dalai Lama."

it does not benefit the Tibetan cause. the Tibetan cause is politics, and this is Dharma. these two have no relation.

it benefits the health of the DL. this man is sick, and anything which can help him to overcome that sickness is of benefit to him.

we do not hate the Dalai Lama - we love the Dalai Lama. we do not approve his deluded actions, and we wish to destroy his delusion.

we are Mahayana Buddhists. this is our responsibility. we publicly discuss our practice of our Deity with regret, because we are forced to by those who would smear and defame us.

your questions demonstrate a good understanding of Buddhist principles, but some misunderstading about our actions and intentions, and those of the DL. i hope that my answers help to at least clarify our views and wishes.

we pray - as all Buddhists pray - that everyone may be happy and everyone may be freed from suffering.

every day, in our Dorje Shugden puja in the Dharma Centre where i live, we pray for the swift recovery and the swift attainment of everlasting peace and happiness of Tenzin Gyatso, the 14th Dalai Lama.

jampel
02 September 2008 at 03:45

Wow, lots of comments. Thank you all for your ideas and opinions. Even if they are a little taunting, it makes for good practice and it is always fun to hear from the other side, even if there is a bit of agitation.

Anyhoo, I wanted to respond to Dechen's comment because I think it brings up a point for all of us to consider (or maybe I am the last one left to be liberated?).

How are we practicing? And what are, and have been the results of our practice. This is a good point but, maybe, we also have to consider our own delusions. If we have strong delusions and blame them on our tradition or lineage something is definitely wrong. We have to acknowledge our delusions and blame them but keep quite about judging a certain practice. If we blame anything it has to be our self-grasping and self-cherishing (I think you know this already) So maybe we have karma to leave a tradition or practice a tradition, still what do we actually know? We just go with what we feel is correct but that is not correct for everyone. The best we can do is keep our intention pure and follow those who we think are doing the same.

So in regards to Dorje Shugden

The Dali Lama himself said that he had no personal experience to say that the practice of Shugden was good our bad. You can read this on his web site. I quote from a response at a media conference in Indianapolis on August 16, 1999.

"There is no reason why I personally should say "'Gyalchen Shugden you have done good or bad'" - for I personally do have some relationship with him, but after some time this became inappropriate in my dealing with questions of Tibet's religion and politics..............." -DL

So where do we step in and when do we engage? When our tradition is threatened by others. Not when we feel another's tradition is incorrect. When innocent people are being harmed, supressed out of their faith and devotion or other causes. We have to act. It is in our Bodhisattva Vows as a down fall of the moral discipline of benefiting others.

Not going to the assistance of those in need, Not acting to dispel suffering, and Not doing wrathful actions when appropriate.

It is very clear that we all feel we are doing the correct things so let us all keep a virtuous intention. Investigate with a balanced mind, exchanging self with others so we can love each other.

One question to Dechen. If you are a practitioner of the Dali Lama ask your center if they allow everyone into their center. This is very helpful to see where the biases lie. The Shudgen practitioner's I know have an everybody welcome policy. Not everybody welcome except.............

For instance I cannot attend a teaching at an FPMT center. Why is this? Because I'm considered non-Buddhist? Who can tell me that? You will allow other religious people into your center. Those who may even feel that all Buddhists are damned in hell. So then, again, why?

It is true we all have to be careful Shugden, non-Shugden it doesn't matter we need to harm our delusions and not each other. It is so easy to talk, but the walking is a bit tougher.

Love to all of you and thanks for teaching me.

-Jampel

dechen
03 September 2008 at 10:50

Thank you Dougal for your clarification, however I have a comment to your answer:

”we are Mahayana Buddhists. this is our responsibility. we publicly discuss our practice of our Deity with regret, because we are forced to by those who would smear and defame us. ”

As a Mahayana Buddhist, I think that smear and defame, is very much connected with the eight worldly concerns, and as a Buddhist we have to use these incidents as our path (even though I am not always able to myself, we have to try as much as we can). Therefore it should not, in my opinion, be a basis for harsh words towards, who we see as the harm doer.

When I watch the links to YouTube from the previous comments to this article, with demonstrators carrying signs that says: “Dalai Lama – Stop Lying” or “Hypocrisy”, then it seems like a pretty hard response and not taking everything onto the path. This is definitely critique and is not part of a discussion or debate. Even though this response is not towards what we ourselves perceive as a Bodhisattva, then we should not react like this towards even our enemy or any sentient beings, they are our teachers. If so I think our practice of Buddhism can turn into a worldly path which is not the goal. This is strictly Mahayana teaching; but even if we take the discussion to a higher view, then the appropriate action will not be in contradiction, since every sentient being have the potential to become a Buddha and therefore we cannot criticize them. Instead we can practice compassion. So compassion instead of demonstrations.

To Jampel:

As an answer to your question: “One question to Dechen. If you are a practitioner of the Dali Lama ask your center if they allow everyone into their center. This is very helpful to see where the biases lie.”

I attend the teachings of the Dalai Lama when I have then possibility, but I am a Nyingma practitioner (very much a beginner ;-). I have been biased all my life and in my formed lives; so the bias lies within myself. I don't know how close the relationship with the spiritual teacher/lama or the lineage holder is in the other Tibetan traditions, but in my tradition we don't go against the word of the teacher, no matter if it seems fair or not, why else would I need a spiritual guide. That doesn't make me a blind follower, because I try to investigate or reason about, why my teacher ask to not to do a specific action, what can the harm be, what can the benefit be? What is he trying to show me?

This would go for the lineage holder as well, as he is my teachers teacher; which makes him my teacher in a way (in my opinion). So what is H.H. Dalai Lama trying to show us, whether he be a Buddha, Bodhisattva or a sentient being? That is important to find out; not where the bias is?

Dougal
03 September 2008 at 21:19

Dechen -

of course, whenever we're harmed, insulted, criticised, then we try to transform this into the path by generating patience, renunciation, compassion, bodhichitta, etc. but we need to be careful not to practise this beautiful Lojong teaching incorrectly. for example, when harmed, we always need to practise patience, but this does not mean that we should never take any action whatsoever to improve a bad situation. practising patience will keep your mind peaceful, but it won't protect your body from an attacker: you need to run away, or possibly even defend yourself, *whilst* trying to practise love, vcompassion and patience in order to control your mind. Buddha never wanted us to become inactive, to become doormats, for how will that help anyone? to take your idea to its logical conclusion, we would do nothing to benefit or protect others other than sitting quietly, training our minds. this is not the Bodhisattva's way.

once more - we are demonstrating *out of compassion*. compassion and demonstrating are not mutually exclusive; one is an inner practice, a mind - the other is an external action. we need to understand this, particularly if it ever becomes necessary to engage in a wrathful action.

allowing the Dalai Lama's delusion to destroy a beautiful, valid path to liberation and enlightenment - thereby denying countless living beings now and in the future the opportunity to meet with and practise this holy Dharma - is *not* a Bodhisattva's action.

of course, you're absolutely right that we have to train ourselves diligently in compassion and patience and wisdom *whilst* demonstrating, but to believe that this is not possible is to deny living beings' capacity to practise Dharma.

in response to your point to Jampel: again, you make some valid points about relying on a Teacher. did you know that the Dalai Lama is directly contradicting and acting against the advice of one of his own Root Gurus, his Junior Tutor Kyabje Trijang Rinpoche? he has said - and i have heard him - that all hids lineage Gurus in this tradityion wre "wrong". this is not a Buddhist practice: His Holiness is sick, and his delusion is creating huge suffering. once again, i believe we must help him and that we must be hard and harsh and wrathful, like a loving mother scolding an angry child who is torturing animals. she cannot just sit and train her mind, can she? she *must* act, and she must act wrathfully, but that doesn't mean she can't still try to train her mind and keep a loving heart.

Friendoftruth
04 September 2008 at 01:14

I would like to add to Dougal's good points the following: many if not all people are either going to demonstrations, or just writing like myself, not out of concern for ourselves, but out of concern for two very important objects:

1-Our own teachings and Lamas. We cannot allow for them to go down in history as demon worshippers and /or sectarian fundamentalist characters. Not that they need our defense against such huge horrendous calomnies. But the beings that could benefit from them and their teachings need that we reverse the Dalai Lama's calumnies and present them as such to the world. Otherwise many people are going to be kept away from our precious teachings, prisoners in the net of lies about our Lamas. This is not fair for sentient beings.

2- Our Sangha in India.

The Dalai Lama obtained only partially what he desires with fervent intent: he broke the Sangha, he divided the religious community. The schism is a fact.

Now the monks reliying on the Protector are kept away from everything, temples, studies halls, kitchens, libraries, everything. They just are not allowed anywhere. So they have retreated to their own quarters, and are living among themselves, with few resources, in a sort of ghetto imposed by the Dalai Lama's orders. (This is true in Ganden and Sera).

But we know that the Dalai Lama is not going to stop there. Once the world is going to forget a little about him, he is going to send his people to attack the monks and one way or another drive them out of the grounds where they still live. And this, even though the land belongs to India.

So we have to continue to appeal to the good people, to the decent people of this world for help. To help those monks, and others in minor monasteries, constantly under the attack of the Dalai Lama's agents, who are, unhappily, numerous in the Tibetan community.

Some out of fanaticism for their leader, some out of fear of their community, they don't hesitate to enact the persecution that the Dalai Lama has decreed.

So we have to defend these people.

Dechen, if you understand our points we invite you to join us in helping them.

Duldzin
06 September 2008 at 14:26

Over the past 400 years High Sakya and Gelug Lamas (including the Dalai Lama's tutor Trijiang Rinpoche - who has written extensive commentaries on the practice of Dorje Shudgen and still continues to practice Dorje Shugden in his current incarnation) have been devout Dorje Shugden practitioners. These lamas are beyond samsara, Bodhisattvas who incarnate repeatedly in human form to lead us out of samsara. They are not concerned about politics but with the ultimate liberation from samsara- the cycle of suffering. Were they worshipping an evil spirit?

Dorje Shudgen is regarded by his practitioners as the same mental continuum of Wisdom Buddha of Manjushiri and JesongKhapa. If you look at the form of Dorje Shudgen - he reveals the complete path to enlightenment. Let me explain:

He wears a monks robes to indicate pure moral discipline is the foundation for spiritual path, his wisdom sword indicates the need to cut through self grasping ignorance -the root of samsara, his heart of compassion which he holds in his right hand , indicates his conventional Bodhichitta, the snow lion he rides on indicates the four fearlessness of a Buddha and so forth. Simply meditating on the Mandala of Dorje Shugden and his form can lead to many realisations of Sutra and tantra such as renunciation, compassion and emptiness. I know this from personal experience, because I am a Dorje Shudgen practitioner. How can a deity that reveals the complete path to enlightenment be an evil spirit! Once again a logical fallacy. Also Buddha's doctrine on emptiness teaches us that whether someone is a Buddha or a Mara is entirely dependent on our minds.

The HH Dalai Lama has given two reasons for banning the practice of Dorje Shugden;

a) It affects his life and well-being b)it affects the Tibetan cause.