Nelson Jones

Belief, disbelief and beyond belief

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Atheism+: the new New Atheists

This new movement has an energy that makes it hard to ignore.

Atheism+ is a reaction against the "New Atheism" of Richard Dawkins
Atheism+ is a reaction against the "New Atheism" of Richard Dawkins. Photograph: Getty Images

270 comments

balstrome's picture

The question one should be asking again and again, is how will the ranks of this new atheism+ be structured and will their vatican be in Morris?

CommanderTuvok's picture

The people behind the so-called 'Atheism+' (still sounds ridiculous) are a bunch of online bullies who gang up to attack anybody who does not conform to their very narrow extreme feminist and humanist dogma. Atheism actually plays no role in their thinking - it is a completely political movement.

Over the last year, many of the leaders have bullied and harrassed other atheists, skeptics, humanists, etc. for even "daring" to disagree on trivial points in their masterplan. One of the bloggers was even sacked recently for sending threats of violence to another one of their own bloggers!

Quite why the New Statesman would give these clowns any publicity is a mystery. They contribute nothing to the atheism and skeptic movements, and can only ridicule, demean and bully the people who actually DO contribute.

Fatpie42's picture

Sorry, hang on. They are "bullies" because they "gang up". Okay, with you so far... And they gang up on, people who oppose feminism?

So your problem is that they all oppose people who want to reject equal rights for women? Seriously?

Who else do they gang up? People who don't accept a "humanist ideology"?

Hmmm what's the humanist ideology? Let me remind you. The BHA defines humanism as: Those who trust to the scientific method, evidence and reason to discover truths about the universe and place human welfare and happiness at the centre of their ethical decision making.

You got a problem with human welfare and happiness? Or are you just anti-science? *shrugs*

CommanderTuvok's picture

"Sorry, hang on. They are "bullies" because they "gang up". Okay, with you so far... And they gang up on, people who oppose feminism?"

No, most of their victims are feminists - just not their "type" of feminist. The women they attack are usually called "gender-traitor", "sister-punisher" or "chill girl".

"So your problem is that they all oppose people who want to reject equal rights for women? Seriously?"

No. That is not the problem. That is the BIG STRAWMAN that they want you to believe. That anyone who questions the FTB (Atheism+) brigade is anti-feminism, and eats babies, etc. Looks like you fell for it, hook, line and sinker.

"Who else do they gang up? People who don't accept a "humanist ideology"?"

The majority of the people they "gang up" on also humanists.

"You got a problem with human welfare and happiness? Or are you just anti-science? "

Erm, nope. Are you a troll from Pharyngula? All the people they attack are pro-science, pro human welfare. So I guess that little theory is blowing along with the tumbleweed.

A Hermit's picture

Yep; according to Tuvok and his friends if you object to women being called vile names and sexually harassed and think they should instead be treated with respect and dignity...YOU are the bully...

These guys are like the religious nuts who claim victimhood when their anti-gay bigotry is pointed out.

CommanderTuvok's picture

Citations please. You're repeating the BIG LIE.

Where do I support calling women vile names and condoning sexual harassment? Also, I presume the "vile names" does not include the ones accepted by FTB to slur others?

A Hermit's picture

Actually Tuvok you're the one who is lying when you accuse people of using terms like "gender traitor". Do a little google search and see.

or read this:

freethoughtblogs.com/butterfliesandwheels/2012/05/how-to-make-baseless-accusations-become-true-via-repetition/

If you didn't show up to whine about "bullying" whenever someone complains about sexism I'd be more inclined to believe that you don't condone harassment or name calling.

Also if you didn't hang out in a forum calling itself "the Slymepit" (which initially adopted a motto about kicking women in the ****) where you make comments like " I support the right of a woman to give Franc a *******..." and laugh along with Hoggle's adolescent attempts at humour...
(note, I had to blank out some of the language there...the language you are defending, because the words trigger the profanity filters here. Suffice it to say they are sexist in nature...)

Yeah, you're all about treating women with respect and dignity aren't you?

CommanderTuvok's picture

"Actually Tuvok you're the one who is lying when you accuse people of using terms like "gender traitor". Do a little google search and see."

Yes, I have, and one of Ophelia Benson's crazies came up with the term, promoted it, and it was warmly taken up by others. Then there is "sister punisher" and "chill girl". Name calling, pure and simple.

"If you didn't show up to whine about "bullying" whenever someone complains about sexism I'd be more inclined to believe that you don't condone harassment or name calling. "

I complain about bullying when I see people getting bullied. That happens to be quite often, at the whims and demands of the FTB inner core. I'd love you to provide evidence that I condone harassment. As for name-calling, don't confuse it with criticism, mockery and satire. Unlike your lot, I don't throw around names and then pretend to be against such activity. You are the hypocrites.

"Also if you didn't hang out in a forum calling itself "the Slymepit" (which initially adopted a motto about kicking women in the ****)"

Because the FTB blogs censor and ban ANY type of dissent, however politely worded, a space on the web was always going to grow organically into a centre of anti-FTB activity. The name was coined by a Pharyngulite, IIR. We don't operate censorship there, so "bad werdz" are on display. But don't insult our intelligence by suggesting we condone such a violence act, just as I don't actually believe Rebecca Watson wants to injure a man, when she made a jokey email the other day.

"where you make comments like " I support the right of a woman to give Franc a *******..." and laugh along with Hoggle's adolescent attempts at humour..."

I don't always laugh along with him, actually, and Franc gets criticised by other members of the Pit from time to time. The Pit is a centre of lowbrow and highbrow, superior criticism and ribald finger-pointing, irreverence and seriousness in turn. Like the great satirists, we sometimes get down and dirty to tackle the behemoth that is FTB. We use humour, criticism and satire to point out FTB hypocrisy - and IT WORKS. Your cries of being offended is like the Church when satirists and cartoonists took them on.

Further, I can quote mine from FTB and find examples that you would disaprove of, and that is after they have tried to "clean" up their sites to present themselves as high and mighty, and holier than thou. PZ "threat" to inflict violence on Gelato Guy, Ophelia's Nazi comparisons. It is a joke. The actual atheist/skeptic/freethought communities see through their charade.

"Yeah, you're all about treating women with respect and dignity aren't you?"

Yeah, and part of it includes not infantilising them.

A Hermit's picture

You're a poser, Tuvok'. You pretend to be standing up against "bullying" but you're happy to join in. Your Slymepit exists for one purpose; to mock, and misrepresent and, yes, bully the people like those at FtB and Skepchicks who are actually trying to make a positive difference in this world.

You can't sit on the fence here, I'm afraid.

And about this..."I can quote mine from FTB and find examples that you would disaprove of..."

...Yes, I know you can, Tuvok. It's what you do. In fact, it's all you do. Then you run back to your little echo chamber for a pat on the back.

It's sad, really...

Xayide's picture

That sounds like a totally objective and not at all agenda-motivated evaluation to me.

AdamM's picture

Nah, Tuvok was right.

AdamM's picture

Nah, Tuvok was right.

porovaara's picture

Atheist+ is old hat. The true skeptics have moved on to Atheist±.

Q2's picture

As an atheist, I believe that mythologies are interesting and often useful, just not factually true. Norse mythology, Christian mythology, whatever. That so many people treat the legends and rules of other religions as cute myth while insisting that the the legends and rules of their own religion are different--I've never understood how people do that with such sincerity and a straight face. However politics are orthogonal to atheism. The simple ability to notice that myth systems are different from each other and from reality doesn't predetermine one's other behavio(u)rs or beliefs.

Irish Libertarian's picture

Atheism+ is clown shoes. I don't believe in a god, that's he only common belief I share with other atheists. I'm a sexist, I'm a misoginist, I hate poor people and I love private enterprise. Don't try to turn atheism into a hippy social justice movement, 'cause it ain't.

Fatpie42's picture

If you view others as inferior they are unlikely to want to form a community with you. Naturally you're still an atheist, but clearly Atheism+ is not going to suit you.

You hate women and the poor and want to announce that on a public form. Wow, you must feel really proud of yourself...

Bill R Painter's picture

I agree. I do not believe in gods and I share that common belief with others. Gender, sexual, political, and economic issues are different issues that have nothing to do with atheism. Atheism+ is divisive to atheism. It enables the vast Christian media and religious pulpit to discredit and disparage atheism as hedonistic and anti-life. Atheism+ slurs and divides atheists and should not be promoted.

Bill R Painter's picture

Another fine misdirected atheist group is ‘Atheist Agenda’. The publicity this groups creates, see the one of many examples below, helps grow religion and damages atheism. Atheism has nothing to do with gender and sexual issues.
://online.worldmag.com/2012/04/02/atheists-offer-porn-in-exchange-for-bibles/

Pavlova's picture

"I don't believe in a god, that's he only common belief I share with other atheists. "

Clearly not.

"I'm a sexist, I'm a misogynist"

See.

Bad Logic Alert. Naughty Atheist!

Irish Libertarian's picture

I evidently meant all atheists. The only thing all atheists share is a disbelief in a deity, unlike say, people who share a political ideology, who'd have numerous shared beliefs.

Make sure you understand before making assertions.

Pavlova's picture

No it evidently wasn't evident what you meant.

You said: "that's he only common belief I share with other atheists. "

Don't see no "all" in there.

You have utterly common beliefs with other atheists and non-atheists. Your disbelief in god is not unconnected to your belief in your own godlike status compared to women just like other male atheists.

As for your political beliefs, quite how you square libertarianism with wanting to deprive women of theirs isn't so clear. But we already know you're a bit fuzzy brained. Don't we.

Irish Libertarian's picture

I don't want to deny women their rights. However, if I want to ogle women and refer to them as sugar tits, I will.

You really are an idiot.

Pavlova's picture

Irish "libertarian", you described yourself as a sexist. Explain to me would you, how sexism allows women their rights and liberties ?

You described yourself as a misogynist. Explain to me how a misogyny allows women their rights and liberties.

"I don't want to deny women their rights. However, if I want to ogle women and refer to them as sugar tits, I will."
Oh you mean you are licentious, not a libertarian. That you are a sexual harasser not a sexist or a misogynist. Why didn't you SAY so? We could have saved each other some time.

Explain to me again how sexual harassment allow women their rights and liberties?

I'm tempted to call you an idiot, but that's a pretty lame insult. Isn't it.

Bill R Painter's picture

Religion in Iran just banned women from 77 university majors, including engineering, physics. Atheism did not do this to women. Religion attacks women and always has.
If Atheism+ gets receives positive press, like here at the New Statesman, it has the signature of a false flag creation designed to misdirect feminist anger from their mortal enemy (religion) and against atheism (opponent of religion). Anyone read about feminist CIA agent Gloria Steinem used feminism to destabilize society? Superstition is so difficult to sell the adherents must capture government resources to keep their doctrines alive.

A Hermit's picture

Standing up to the sexists and racists in our community doesn't mean we can't also stand up for the women in Iran and other places who are being treated so evilly.

In fact I don't see how we can effectively fight for those Iranian women if we're too hypocritical to listen to the concerns of the women we live and work with every day...

actuwannabe's picture

I'm outraged!
How dare you criticize the actions of "brown" muslims in Iran ?
For all we know, they're doing these things to Iranian womyn because western colonialism and orientalism forced them to do it!
Please stop criticizing "brown" folks of colour please !
Are you so blinded by your shiny white priviledge that you haven't noticed how "brown" iranians were and that you had no right to pass judgement on their wise ways ?

Pavlova's picture

Well done you.

Your mummy must be proud.

Irish Libertarian's picture

She is.

Pavlova's picture

This has put into words what i have been feeling for a long while. I didn't realise that misogyny and sexism within the atheist movement was a recognised phenomenon, I thought it was just something I was noticing and was maybe exaggerating.

I don't think it's the Richard Dawkins of this world that are the problem. It's all those geeky, subterranean fanboys who make up Anonymous. The same lot that want to have gay unprotected love with Assange. Hyped on fury at rejection, frustrated sexual energy, death metal and rock hard arrogance.

actuwannabe's picture

"
The same lot that want to have gay unprotected love with Assange
"
What's wrong with having gay sex with Assange ?
Homophobe shame on you!
Besides, Assange is australian so he might be of partial aboriginal ancestry. That makes your remark even worse because now it's racist and homophobic!
Atheism will not stand for racism and homophobia that tries to pass as feminism! I bet you're white and priviledged!

jankaas's picture

at first i assumed it was "Atheism Plus" which is a tiny bit funnier that "Atheism Positive". it is all rather dreary and bit pathetic imho, i thought these people were weird enough when labelling themselves "Brights". gag me with a spoon.....

one night in bangkok's picture

I became an "aggressive" atheist because I didn't want myself, or others, being told what to think and how to live. Why, then, should be part of a movement that tells me I must accept some very ropey claims about feminism and other matters before I can be accepted?

I've stood on a platform with David Davis, I'll stand on a platform with feminists, I'll join forces with a lot of people I don't in the normal run of things agree with if there's a nasty enough foe to unite against. I will not be told that I must be approved by Jen McCreight before I can be aceptable.

A Hermit's picture

Nobody is saying you need McCreight's approval. She's just asking that you not ask about her boobs in the Q&A after her speech on science education...

more here:

freethoughtblogs.com/blaghag/2012/08/responding-to-common-misconceptions-about-atheism/

rrpostal's picture

You keep saying that, and I think you actually believe it. Very much like how I keep hearing this is about being inclusive and accepting while simultaneously all the blogs are about cutting away the deadwood and the comments sections offer draconian rebukes to all those who dare not agree unconditionally.

Euan McArthur's picture

It isn't surprising that the "atheist movement" is fairly conservative politically; and only poses as "progressive" at its most radical. There is nothing particularly rebellious about opposing religion - we live already live in a secular society, the claims of theology have been dismissed, and religious "communities" carry very little political weight in the West. They accept the establishment liberal claim that religion is a foreign political "ideology", rather than a means of legitimation, and concern themselves very little with areas where religion proves to be an actively oppressive force e.g. Africa, the Islamic world. Active opposition to religion is now more an ego-boosting hobby, something rich white academics do from their ivory towers when they're tired of real politics, than something effecting pertinent political or social change; it isn't revolutionary or intellectually stimulating so I don't expect the views of these activists to be so on other topics.

That said, the elevatorgate thing - no, people shouldn't be asked like that, with no initiation, a question that clearly implies that they have a sexual liaison. And Dawkins's opinions on it aren't very enlightening. But a woman shouldn't have to feel that if this happens it implies something bad could happen to her - and nothing did. Any further threat failed to actualize itself.

TychaBrahe's picture

I want to know where you live, because I live in the US, which claims to be a secular society, but decidedly isn't. The organized attack by right-wing religious extremists on everything from the autonomy of women's bodies to the teaching of evolution in the science classroom to the separation of church and state as mandated by the First Amendment is driven by Christian fundamentalists and funded by the Catholic Church and the Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons). There is even a religious-political faction called the Dominionists which believes that government power MUST rest in the hands of those devoted to Christ. In our recent Republican election primaries, both Michele Bachmann and Rick Perry were followers of Dominionism.

gouchout's picture

He wasn't talking about the 3rd world

Possum's picture

The only reason you mention Mormons is due to Romney. The mormons have absolutely no pull in politics past Utah, otherwise. The organized attacks are carried out mainly by the ultra neocon protestant sects that see both catholicism and mormonism as cults. And I find it hilarious that they're now rabid devotees of Romney.

TooManyJens's picture

You're wrong. The Church of Latter-Day Saints was a major funder of the Proposition 8 campaign to rescind same-sex marriage rights in California.

Jeanie's picture

"religious 'communities' carry very little political weight in the West?"
And yet, an atheist could get about 20 votes if he or she were to run for dog catcher.

Although our Constitution says there will be no religious test for someone to enter into politics. How many atheists do we have in office? How many atheists are running? No one really knows, because if they admitted it, they'd be stoned to death.

gimpyblog's picture

You make Atheism + sound almost laudable, when in reality it seems to be the product of some deep rooted personal animosities reminiscent of socialist groupuscules.

sadra's picture

"...why we’ve been having these problems in atheism and skepticism." has to be the most idiotic generalization that can be made. There's simply absolutely nothing gender dependent about them. Do we say capitalism is sexist? The question simply malformed. How do we get from Atheism to "boy's club" anyway? what possible logical pathway do we provide to arrive at such absurd conclusion?
And to say "To remember that not all atheists look like Richard Dawkins." is just failed attempt at slur. Didn't Dawkins admire feminist movements as inspiration of new Atheists movements? Didn't he personally support there's probably no god campaign? I'm sure Ariane Sherine doesn't share McCreight's insecurities.

Of course Atheistic movements, like any other movements, need refinements, but does it really help to make a imaginary front line to attack?

sadra's picture

ignore my Dawkins comment, I was confused about tone of the writer.

davelong's picture

Richard Dawkins has been offensively condescending towards feminists for some time. He's an old white bloke who just doesn't get the point, that there's more to carrying the Enlightenment forward than pointing at religions at saying we can do without them. We can also do without the sexist, racist, and classist attitudes they promoted, in one form or another, for thousands of years.

davelong's picture

Richard Dawkins has been offensively condescending towards feminists for some time. He's an old white bloke who just doesn't get the point, that there's more to carrying the Enlightenment forward than pointing at religions at saying we can do without them. We can also do without the sexist, racist, and classist attitudes they promoted, in one form or another, for thousands of years.

iain carstairs's picture

The growth of any organism depends on stages of separation, but how can any group who "questions everything" agree for long? The RDF's R Cornwell proposes a stance on abortion and RDF members bicker pedantically over R's sources. The RDF changes its online discussion format and RDF members flame it atrociously. A meeting is held to commemorate Hitchens' life and a woman speaker calls his habit of kissing her hand "grotesque", to the irritation of Hitchens' friend Salman Rushdie. You can't expect sensitive people to be attracted to a heaving scrum of acerbic criticism. A group which sets itself against any leadership - Divine or human - from the start, is built to fragment.

If, as Atheist Experience claims, atheists pride themselves on "having more reasoning power than anyone else", it explains why they're always bickering; have they ever experienced compromise and acceptance? The new offshoot is a positive step because it attempts to base itself around it.

J.C. Samuelson's picture

"Divisive" is one of those words tossed out without much thought these days. All ideas are in some sense "divisive" in that people usually do disagree - often sharply, or less often violently - over which ideas and behaviors are worthwhile and which ones aren't. More to the point, not all ideas are equally valid (or valuable).

Movements, therefore - and splinter movements, such as this - do tend to be divisive, but that's not always a bad thing. It's how cultures take shape, and I, for one, am encouraged to see that some of my fellow atheists are moving beyond mere disbelief and toward greater social consciousness.

Steve Bowen's picture

The "atheist community" never has been a community of all atheists. There is a significant minority of Ayn Randian stylee libertarian atheists for example who have never been embraced by the "new atheist" movement.
But the liberal, equality concious atheists tend to be in the majority precicely because it is the rational position. And yes, if atheism+ purges our growing movement of its sexists, racists and otherists so be it.
This is not designed to exclude middle aged, middle class white males, a demographic that I sit squarely in myself, it is intended to expand the representation to make atheism a safe landing for women, people of colour and LGBTQ individuals as well as the likes of me and RD.

Harry W's picture

The real problem with this movement lies not with its political aims (which sound - broadly speaking - laudable) but with the fact that it gives further food to the pernicious myth of atheist/sceptical=left-wing and believer=right-wing. While it's certainly true that many prominent left-wing thinkers and activists are atheists (or perhaps open-minded secularists) and nowadays many religions tend to adopt social policies which sit easier with the conservative right, this is a simplistic distinction which irritates me. I am a Catholic and am sick of, when people find this out, them almost immediately asking me "but how does that sit with your left-wing views?" Certainly there is a problem with small-c conservative religious believers piggy-backing on right-wing social themes (or vice versa) but to throw that back and create an atheist movement which explicitly links non-belief in God with a progressive agenda (as if one follows from the other) is not going to make things better.

Harry Whomersley's picture

The real problem with this movement lies not with its political aims (which sound - broadly speaking - laudable) but with the fact that it gives further food to the pernicious myth of atheist/sceptical=left-wing and believer=right-wing. While it's certainly true that many prominent left-wing thinkers and activists are atheists (or perhaps open-minded secularists) and nowadays many religions tend to adopt social policies which sit easier with the conservative right, this is a simplistic distinction which irritates me. I am a Catholic and am sick of, when people find this out, them almost immediately asking me "but how does that sit with your left-wing views?" Certainly there is a problem with small-c conservative religious believers piggy-backing on right-wing social themes (or vice versa) but to throw that back and create an atheist movement which explicitly links non-belief in God with a progressive agenda (as if one follows from the other) is not going to make things better.

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