Mehdi Hasan

Mehdi Hasan’s polemical take on politics, economics and foreign affairs

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Does Ahmadinejad really want to "wipe Israel off the map"?

Iran Watch, part 4.

Iran Watch, part 4.

I guess I should be flattered. On Tuesday night, at 11:18pm, when some of us were spending time with our families, and others were tucked up in bed, the Blair biographer (hagiographer?) John Rentoul was in front of his computer composing a blogpost trying to ridicule my views about Iran, Israel and nuclear weapons. You see, I had the temerity to dare mention that Israel happens to have nukes and Iran doesn't. Silly me. (Incidentally, I'm going to give Rentoul the benefit of the doubt and assume he didn't mean to deliberately try and link me to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in the eyes of his readers with his photo of the latter, the use of my name and then the headline "Spot the difference". But if he did, subtle it wasn't and shame on him.)

In a classic "compliment dressed up as an insult", Rentoul referred to me in his opening paragraph as "one of the more thoughtful of the appeasement faction, returning to the scene of his folly". I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

First, if I'd called Iraq as spectactularly badly as Rentoul did, I'd be careful about uttering the word "folly".

Second, if I was a writer who constantly railed against the use of cliché, I'd be wary of invoking lazy Second World War analogies.

I mean, "appeasement"? Really? I'm opposed to nuclear-armed Israel pre-emptively and illegally attacking a nuclear-weapons-free Iran so that makes me an appeaser? I guess Shirin Ebadi, Iran's leading, Nobel-Prize-winning dissident, who also opposes military action against the Islamic Republic, is also an appeaser then. I guess Meir Dagan, the former head of Mossad, who has described an attack on Iran as "a stupid idea" is an appeaser too. Then there's Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff in the United States, who says an Israeli attack on Iran would be "destabilising". He's an appeaser too, John? And how about well-known appeaser Barack Obama, who decried "loose talk of war" from the hawks in his speech to Aipac earlier this week? Are we all appeasers?

Rentoul is more of a chickenhawk than a hawk; a laptop bombardier who demands the west bomb and invade Middle East countries on spurious grounds. Civilian casualties don't seem to figure in his calculations. In fact, for the past nine years, Rentoul has obsessively tried to downplay and discredit the various peer-reviewed studies that document how many hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women and children died in Iraq as a result of the war that he supported - and still supports.

But let's turn to the subject of his latest blogpost, headlined "Spot the difference". Rentoul repeats his earlier assertion on Twitter that

the Iranian President said that Israel must be wiped from the pages of history.

To be fair to the Independent on Sunday columnist, countless politicians and pundits on left and right have bought into this nonsense. The inconvenient truth - for them - is that the Iranian president, despite being an odious, obnoxious and bombastic individual, never used these words.

See Guardian columnist Jonathan Steele's debunking of this myth here and here. See this handy Wikipedia page for other references and further evidence.

And here's Farsi-speaker Professor Juan Cole of the University of Michigan, one of America's leading academic experts on Iran, Iranians and Shia Islam, writing on his blog in 2006:

[Ahmadinejad] made an analogy to Khomeini's determination and success in getting rid of the Shah's government, which Khomeini had said "must go" (az bain bayad berad). Then Ahmadinejad defined Zionism not as an Arabi-Israeli national struggle but as a Western plot to divide the world of Islam with Israel as the pivot of this plan.

The phrase he then used as I read it is "The Imam said that this regime occupying Jerusalem (een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods) must [vanish from] from the page of time (bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad)."

Ahmadinejad was not making a threat, he was quoting a saying of Khomeini and urging that pro-Palestinian activists in Iran not give up hope- that the occupation of Jerusalem was no more a continued inevitability than had been the hegemony of the Shah's government.

Whatever this quotation from a decades-old speech of Khomeini may have meant, Ahmadinejad did not say that "Israel must be wiped off the map" with the implication that phrase has of Nazi-style extermination of a people. He said that the occupation regime over Jerusalem must be erased from the page of time.

Again, Ariel Sharon erased the occupation regime over Gaza from the page of time.

When I debated this issue with him on Twitter last month, the flailing, Farsi-less Rentoul sent me a link to a Washington Post "fact-check"-style article, entitled: "Did Ahmadinejad really say Israel should be 'wiped off the map'?" I'm not sure what his reasoning was, given the Post piece concludes:

"Wipe off the map," in other words, has become easy shorthand for expressing revulsion at Iran's anti-Israeli foreign policy. . . But we're going to award a Pinocchio to everyone -- including ourselves -- who has blithely repeated the phrase without putting it into context.

And the piece also cited Karim Sadjadpour, an Iranian specialist at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace and no apologist for Ahmadinejad, pointing out how the Iranian regime's "goal is not the military destruction of the Jewish state but 'the defeat of Zionist ideology and the dissolution of Israel through a 'popular referendum.'"

So, what was Rentoul's response to being corrected and educated on a subject about which he clearly knows little? An apology? Some sheepishness or humility? Nope. None. He writes on his blog:

In other words, [Ahmadinejad] said what everyone thinks he said.

Er, no, John, he didn't. That's the whole point! Read in context, and with the correct translation, Ahmadinejad's comments mean something quite different. They relate to occupation, regime change and a one-state solution for the inhabitants of Palestine, rather than a military attack and a new Holocaust (which, incidentally, would also kill one million Arab Muslim residents of Israel - why would the Iranians want to do that??). Rentoul is one of the brightest columnists around so I can't understand why he has such difficulty understanding this rather simple point. Perhaps, just perhaps, he is being deliberately disingenuous in his repetition of the false translation and his insistence on its "genocidal" connotations. After all, it's the best argument the hawks have - they can't be allowed to have nukes, or trusted with uranium, because they're genocidal maniacs!

As one Canadian academic cited by the Wikipedia article succintly put it:

Ahmadinejad was quoting the Ayatollah Khomeini in the specific speech under discussion: what he said was that "the occupation regime over Jerusalem should vanish from the page of time." No state action is envisaged in this lament; it denotes a spiritual wish, whereas the erroneous translation - "wipe Israel off the map" - suggests a military threat. There is a huge chasm between the correct and the incorrect translations. The notion that Iran can "wipe out" U.S.-backed, nuclear-armed Israel is ludicrous.

Indeed. The point is this: Rentoul was caught out misquoting the Iranian president for self-serving, fear-mongering purposes. Instead of acknowleding his error, he then claimed that the actual translation means the same thing as his original misquote - and then carries on using the original mistranslation to beat the drum for war against Iran, despite the fact that his pants are on fire and he knows they're on fire.

What's so pathetic about this particular "gotcha" quote is that it was delivered seven years ago and Ahmadinejad has been asked about it, and clarified it, several times in the intervening period. In a January 2006 news conference, he said:

There is no new policy, they created a lot of hue and cry over that. It is clear what we say: Let the Palestinians participate in free elections and they will say what they want.

In a September 2008 interview, the Iranian president was asked: "If the Palestinian leaders agree to a two-state solution, could Iran live with an Israeli state?" To which he replied:

If they [the Palestinians] want to keep the Zionists, they can stay ... Whatever the people decide, we will respect it. I mean, it's very much in correspondence with our proposal to allow Palestinian people to decide through free referendums

Why is it that journalists like Rentoul can't bring themselves to mention such quotes that don't fit their "he's a genocidal maniac" narrative? Is it wilful ignorance? Or their hawkish agenda? Or a bit of both?

Let me finish by dealing with Rentoul's brief, sarcastic critique of my own original blogpost:

Today, [Hasan] returns to the subject, asking: "What about Israel's nukes?"

I'll tell him about Israel's nukes. They're not anyone's favourite thing. But there is a difference between the governments of Israel and Iran. One of them has said that the other "must vanish from the page of time".

I wonder if Hasan can guess which one?

Well, I've dealt with the "vanish from the page of time" stuff, so let me, in a tribute to Rentoul's "Spot the difference" headline, ask him a few questions and get him to "spot the difference" between Iran and Israel (since Rentoul is so intent on presenting the latter as doveish and the former as hawkish):

1) Which country in the Middle East has a secret stash of 100-200 nuclear warheads? Iran or Israel?

2) Which country in the Middle East has been the subject of more than 60 critical UN Security Council resolutions? Iran or Israel?

3) Which country invaded and occupied one of its neighbours between 1978 and 2000 and then bombed it again in 2006? Iran or Israel?

4) Which country continues to illegally occupy Syrian and Palestinian land? Iran or Israel?

5) Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty or allow IAEA inspectors to visit its nuclear facilities? Iran or Israel?

6) Which country in the Middle East has been accused of providing "expertise and technology that was central to [apartheid] South Africa's development of its nuclear bombs"? Iran or Israel?

7) Which country in the Middle East is currently, actively, openly planning an illegal, pre-emptive air attack on another? Iran or Israel?

I await Rentoul's answers.

Oh and on a final, related note, before you shout (a la "Mark Wallace" in the comments to my last blogpost) "Israel is a democracy, Iran isn't!", let me just say that (a) I agree Israel (inside the Green Line) is much more democratic than Iran, but (b) it's irrelevant to the debate over the permissibility of nuclear weapons, given the fact that the only country in history to actually use nuclear weapons was, er, a democracy: the United States, in 1945.

UPDATE:

Yet another formal and official disavowal (denial?) of the "wipe them off the map" line, this time from Mohammad Javad Larijani, "a member of a powerful political clan in Iran and an adviser to the country's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei", speaking to CNN's Christiane Amanpour on 15 March:

Larijani sought to downplay the significance of comments attributed to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad a few years ago suggesting that Israel should be wiped off the map.

He said the comments were "definitely not" meant in a military sense and that such an approach was not "a policy of Iran."

Case closed.

UPDATE 2:

I know I said "case closed" but I couldn't help but add another update to this blogpost, noting the comments made by Dan Meridor, Israel's minister of intelligence and atomic energy and deputy prime minister, in an interview with Al Jazeera on 16 April 2012:

Al Jazeera's Teymoor Nabili talks to Dan Meridor, Israel's minister of intelligence and atomic energy and deputy prime minister, about this and questions him over Israeli politicians' claims that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, said Iran would 'wipe Israel out'.

"They [Iranian leaders] all come basically ideologically, religiously with the statement that Israel is an unnatural creature, it will not survive," Meridor says. "They didn't say 'we'll wipe it out', you are right, but 'it will not survive, it is a cancerous tumour, it should be removed'. They repeatedly said 'Israel is not legitimate, it should not exist'."

Thanks for the clarification, Dan!

277 comments

Sam Fried's picture

Your last sentence, a question asked by many un-hypnotized thinkers alike. So in response: A fundamentally flawed and sour recipe of misinformation flavoured with in some cases thinly veiled Anti-Semitism. And in the majority it now being a " jump on the bandwagon" situation, "cooked" by politically oblivious sycophants in an attempt to seem progressive and intellectual.

Will Podmore's picture

Mehdi is being extremely courteous when he calls the odious liar and warmonger John Rentoul 'one of the brightest columnists around'.
Rentoul is a disgrace to his profession, who misuses what gifts he has in order to lie in the service of war and imperialism.

Yadam's picture

If it's in the Koran, please show me.

Julia Harris's picture

@ Raymond Dance - good point, well said.

@ Matty 90 - Dumb fukwit.

Mr Danger's picture

"Israel has a future, but not as an American "aircraft carrier"

Israel isn't doing a particularly good job of being an American aircraft carrier seeing as no US aircraft have ever been based in Israel.

Clueless.

"Over the medium and long term Israel has to... compromise with its neighbours."

Maybe they should hand over Northern Lebanon and Gaza. Oh wait they did, and now Islamic loons attack Israel from both.

Why do so many people lecture Israel when they haven't got the faintest clue what is going on there?

Julia Harris's picture

@ Raymond Dance, Egyptian Cleric Muhammad Hassan: sums it when he says 'its not about Land and Borders'. Nothing to do with West Bank or Gaza...I excuse after the next..

http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/3351.htm

Steff's picture

I'd just like to point out that being 'one of the brightest columnists around' isn't much of a compliment.

All you columnists seem to do is moan back and forth at each other, and use a lot of copy and pasting from other peoples work to fill out your columns.

Julia Harris's picture

The question you Idiots need to ask is...

Are you grateful now that Israel bombed Syria’s Nuclear facilities in 2007 and Iraq’s reactor in 1981 and took out the ability to possess Nukes?
Do you think after Saddam invaded Kuwait that the world would have been able to do anything if Iraq had Nukes? What country would he have invaded next???

Do you think that when the coalition went to free Kuwait that the numerous Scud missiles sent from Iraq to Israel might have had something more insidious inside them?

Do you think that Israel now, knowing the type of Mad, Hysterical leaderships in the region who hate Jews, that they could allow a regime to possess Nukes?

It is because Israel has had the upper hand, has made it survive, the Idiots here talking down the threat such as Mehdi do so with either the direct or indirect knowledge that if Israel capitulates with these people, it will leave the windows and doors open to its own destruction.

Mehdi always has firmly in his articles about Israel the list of things to demonise it. In that way he builds a defence of any kind of support for Israel and the holistic and truthful appraisal of the conflict gets lost in 7 points of Israel bashing, a wicked little man.

gerry's picture

I forgot to mention, im an Islam hating paranoid schizophrenic, who reacts to anyone criticizing my Zionist point of view by calling them an islamofascist extremist because I have absolutely no imagination whatsoever to even come up with any other possibility that they might even be Jewish! God forbid, my brain couldn't handle that, so please be an islamofascist extremist, I'll accuse you of it no matter what your perspective. That's the only response I have and I'm sticking to it!

Julia Harris's picture

Jackass, if its written like annihilistic hate speech, sounds like annihilistic hate speech, perceived as annihilistic hate speech....

Zionism + Israel - same thing, don't start giving the 'taken out of context' bullshit or the mis-translation bullshit, everybody knows what he is saying apart from the Idiots.

Maybe the Yorkshire Ripper really want to teach those prostitutes DIY when he showed them his hammer...?

Mariella's picture

@Herbert @Ascot

I have been accused of being mentally ill, loonie,in need of psychiatric help, need to get a job, do not have anything to do, a Muslim fanatic, a rabid Jew Hater, personal hate, working for NS, working for MPAUK? etc etc.

I see nothing from the pro Zionist lobby which convinces me that they are actively working for peace and a solution to the Israel/Palestine question.

I have yet to see any kind of acknowledgment from the pro Zionost lobby that Israel has committed and continues to inflict a terrible injustice on the Palestinian people.

The Israelis do have a moral, political and legal case to answer. All this hiding behind anti-semitism may have worked in the past but it won't work now.

Mariella's picture

Tussant you are factually incorrect about rape being used by the previous Libya regime. Amnesty International have confirmed there is no evidence to support the charge of rape being used as a weapon of war. In many cases most of these claims were manufactured in Benghazi.

The findings by the investigators appear to be at odds with the views of the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Luis Moreno-Ocampo. That same Ocampo has been appointed by the TNC to oversee the establishment of a new legal system.

gerry's picture

Jankaas - will definitely share the links posted esp Atran, very bracing stuff...

Having my own perspectives and politics challenged is part of the reason I do post in NS threads, and the most effective posters on these threads have been:

Julia Harris (for her facts, clarity and diamond-hard prose),

Luddite (for his haiku like clarity!),

Parkour Pete (for his clear humanity),

you (for your confrontional/consensual arguments - I still would love to have met the old religion-slaying Jankaas)

and Olijaan (an islamist who is calm, rational and passionate even tho I disagree with everything he says!)

So thanks - and I suppose enough of the love-fest...lets get back to the filth and the fury!

Indu Pendent's picture

@jackass

If you dont believe in God then you are mad (Freud's definition) for beleiving God raped Mary as its absurd.

If you do believe in God then how actually did God perform the act of intercourse needed for statutory rape of Mary under UK law?

Have you seen yet that you are barking mad?

Tussant's picture

@Mariella
I see nothing in any of your posts or in the policies of Moslem states demonstrating that they are prepared to recognise israel' right to exist.
Instead one has Article 7 of the Hamas Charter which quite openly calls for all Jews to be killed.
The Moslem states need to account for, acknowledge responsibility for and provide compensation for the 1 million Jews that they ethnically cleansed.
They need to acknowledge and express remorse for rejecting a 2-state solution in 1947 and instead launching a war against the new Jewish state telling the world that they were going to butcher every last Jew.
The Arab world needs to stop supporting criminal terro groups like Hamas and Hezbollah.
Maybe then peace will have a chance.
You however are a mindless Islamist bigot who refuses to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, you support racist fascist terror groups like Hamas, you hope that islamofascist Iran gets a bomb which it can use on the Jews and yes - you are an anti-Semitic bigot hiding behind thhe fig leaf of 'anti-zionism'.

jankaas's picture

"The ' Christian God raped Mary' boy the islamists now want to take on Christianity"

wow, how thick are you? i've twice explained i am not a Muslim, but here you go again. thank fuck not all Westerners are as dense as you Tosser, or we'd be taken over by cattle...

"Makes you just want to go out and burn a Koran."

you go right ahead and do so if it makes you feel better. as far as i'm concerned it's just another religious text Tosser.

and i stand by my statement that Mary was the victim of statutory rape by God. it's in the Bible Tosser, you ever read it?

jankaas's picture

"jackass"

yes In-pooh Resplendent..?

"So according to you, God raped Mary due to age limits under UK statute?"

yep, guilty as can be. now perhaps you wish to argue that current law doesn't apply to the era Mary lived in. but then you would have to accept the same is true for Mohammed's 'relationships'. i haven't seen you demanding those who call Mohammed a pederast/pedophile/child rapist seek urgent psychiatric attention.

so why don't you? simple; because you are a petty bigot In-pooh Resplendent.

Mariella's picture

According to the UN since the year 2000, deaths can be broken down into the following:

4,228 have been Palestinians, 1,024 Israelis, and 63 foreign citizens. A total of 971 children have been killed in Israeli-Palestinian conflict violence. Of those children 88% are Palestinians and 12% were Israeli.

Further, I fail to see what the Arab Spring has got to do with the conflit between Palestinians and Israelis.

I do not think 4228 Palestinians is a comparatively small number.

Luddite's picture

Does Ahmadinejad really want to "wipe Israel off the map" Probably not, but at this rate of exceleration in political tension; millions of Iranian may-not live long enough to regret his stupid inflammatory statement.

Indu Pendent's picture

Jackass - developed a sense of humour yet. Or are you still a biggot?

Fancy saying Mary was raped by God. Its like drawing an image of the prophet.

Incite rather than insight sums you up.

jankaas's picture

@gerry

glad you're geting something from the links. if you ever want to really dig down into the science of religion Atran's book In Gods We Trust is simply without equal. it straddles the divide between pure vox-pop and impenetrable academia.

but have to say, the company you keep and agree with.....erm......well you can keep them ;o)

"lets get back to the filth and the fury!"

as you can see, i am already 'on it' so to say. ttfn

Mariella's picture

@ commentator

I really do object to your terminology where you desribe me as being a looney.

I know that in general this sort of tactic is resorted too when the argument has been lost. However, I wonder if it has occured to you that mental illness is a serious matter and bandying around terms like looney in order to demonise people with mental health issues puts you in a very poor light. You are stigamtizing those with mental health issues.

WHY NOT JUST STICK TO THE ISSUES ACCOMENTATOR!!!!

jankaas's picture

@Mehdi

"the Iranian president, despite being an odious, obnoxious and bombastic individual"

you know that there will still be plenty of posters here who read that as follows; "the Iranian president, despite being a lovable, inoffensive and restrained individual"

the same people in fact who think;
a "regime" is a "country"
"Jerusalem" is "Israel"
"pages of time" is a "map"

and of course that, no matter what, they know what Ahmadinejad really meant, nudge nudge, wink wink...

i despair at the level of exchange on this topic..

Mariella's picture

If you look at some fo the comments made by Israeli supporters, is it any wonder that the Palestinians have not been able to reach an accomodation with Israel. As for the drumbeat against Iran, it is merely a smokescreen by Israel to tie the West up with yet another Muslim nation that it needs to impose sanctions against. Meanwhile Israel is bus building and consolidating its land grab on the West Bank, terrorising the population in the process.

Mariella's picture

Tousant, you can spout all the hatred,and false truths that you like. Readers can judge from the tone of your comments that you have nothing to add to the debate. Indeed it is supporters like you who give Israel a bad name. I really do not believe that you speak fot the majority of Israelis.

Julia Harris's picture

Mariella, Since 1948, almost 10 million Muslims have died at the hands of fellow Muslims

Where is the outrage over that? Double standards abound. As the Israeli envoy Dan Gillerman said in 2008: "When Christians kill Muslims, it's the Crusades. When Jews kill Muslims it's murder, and when Muslims kill Muslims, it's like talking about the weather. Nobody really cares about it."

Arminius's picture

Tussant - When can the Palestinian Arabs expect an apology and compensation for being ethnically cleansed and massacred during the 1947-48 war? When can the British expect an apology and compensation for the vicious terrorist attacks on its soldiers and civilians by the Irgun and Lehi? The Arabs are not the only ones who hero-worship terrorists; Netanyahu and the fascists in his government do it too yet Zionist cheerleader refuse to acknowledge it.

Julia Harris's picture

18,500 Deadly terror attacks committed by Muslims in the name of Islam...Silence from the left...why?

This weeks Islamic Terror - like talking about the weather??

2012.03.09 (Yala, Thailand) - Muslim 'rebels' kidnap two local soldiers from their post, tie them up and then execute them.
2012.03.08 (Ashaka, Nigeria) - Civilians are among seven dead when Boko Haram cadres attack two banks and a police station.
2012.03.08 (Sokoto, Nigeria) - Fundamentalists murder two European engineers in captivity.
2012.03.07 (Karachi, Pakistan) - An Ahmadi is gunned down in a targeted attack at a market.
2012.03.07 (Peshawar, Pakistan) - A Taliban bomb planted in a sewer takes out a 9-year-old child.
2012.03.07 (Tal Afar, Iraq) - Fourteen people near a restaurant are obliterated in a double bomb attack by Holy Warriors.

Mariella's picture

Yes we must not forget the terrorism deployed by the Stern Gang which was responsible for kiiling numerous British solders in the King David Hotel. Members of the Stern Gang it must be remembered then went onto form an new Israeli government.

We must not forget too: SOME 850.000 PALESTINIANS FLED MANDATE PALESTINE IN 1948. THAT IS ETHNIC CLEANSING ON AN EPIC SCALE.

jankaas's picture

@gerry

"Jankaas - I'll explain this to you one more time..."

and as ever your 'explanation' has made no concession to the difference between correlation and causation. analysis of the data does not prove religion is the driver of these vile acts.

your claim that the LRA do what they do purely because of the Bible is yet more evidence you're a very confused puppy.

here's your lesson;
1) all perpetrators and victims in Islamic countries will be Muslim by default, so to claim there's anything of note when they scream Insha Allah is ridiculous.
2) all violent acts are occurring in geographical locations where there has been interference from the West for decades if not centuries. to refuse to take this truism into account is intellectually corrupt.

i trust you will continue to fail to remember that lesson from me...

p.s. whoever was pretending to be gerry at 10:10; you're a sad little prick.

Julia Harris's picture

18,500 Deadly terror attacks committed by Muslims in the name of Islam... OMITTED - SINCE 9-11

Silence from the left...why? Our Fault????????

Mariella's picture

Does anybody remember the Deir Yassin Massacre in 1948 where defenceless men, women and children were murdered and tortured by Israeli terror gangs. Some pregnant women had their unborn babies ripped from their stomachs.

Mariella's picture

Even having the exact and precise translation of what Ahmadinjad said, would still not satisfy those who want war with Iran.

jankaas's picture

"Jackass"
yes In-pooh Resplendent..?

"Fancy saying Mary was raped by God."
i think you'll find i did. and it's the only logical conclusion if the Biblical story is true. God was guilty of statutory rape under the rule of law, same goes for Mohammed.

what is your reason for refusing to accept this simple statement of fact? perhaps you think that little girls should be impregnated?

JJ's picture

@Mr.Danger - Not all of them are clueless, some of them are plainly malicious in that they know they know better but for them propaganda trumps all.

@Mehdi: Come off it! You quote Ahmadinejad the organiser of a Holocaust deniers' conference as some sort of guru because he pontificated on the I/P conflict. Did you not stop to ask yourself, what right has the President of Iran to hold forth on a topic which is used by Iran to deflect attention from its Human Rights abuses.

I mean the Iranians never cease reminding us that they are not Arabs, but yet they practice demonisation of Israel just like any other Arab tyrant keeping his people in subjugation.

Mehdi's piece is brainwashing at its best: Now we are supposed to believe that Ahmadinejad is actually with anything valid to say on the conflict when he is a key player in a barbaric regime

The quote from Khomeini is also a joke from Mehdi. What Mehdi is ignorant of, and allow me to educate him, is that Khomeini all along called for the destruction of Israel. He made speeches in which he called for Muslims to hold buckets of water to drown it. All his rhetoric about Israel was eliminationist.

Now his successors talk of Israel in terms of a cancer that should be removed. Read thi article that tabulates the murderous rhetoric coming from Teheran.

http://www.meforum.org/2167/iran-genocidal-incitement-israel

Mehdi, one should be grateful to you I suppose for allowing others who don't share your views to put forward their version and try to argue otherwise in the marketplace of ideas.

JJ's picture

Jankaas if you are so despairing then why on earth do you comment here? It's not like you don't pop up on every single thread on the topic :)

jankaas's picture

poor Tosser, having a little mental meltdown 11 March 2012 at 23:59.
i see you've now comnpletely backed down from defending your own shitty shite. this turd was yours Tosser; "I was just wondering if their is something in Islam that encourages so many of its believers to behave like animals. Then silly me I remembered - the 'prophet' Mohammed was a rapist and pedophile."

i repeat, if Mohammed was a rapist/pedophile then so too was the Biblical God because Mary was underage. statutory rape is statutory rape, no exceptions. chew on that Tosser.

jankaas's picture

^

i don't believe in God the same way i don't believe in Mohammed In-pooh Resplendent. what's so difficult about that for you to get to terms with? so the stories about how either procreated i treat the same way.

here's the dumbed down version for you; Mary was underage when she became pregnant Jesus, and the father was God as per the Bible. this means He is guilty of statutory rape.

but for unknown reasons you excuse this odious betrayal of a child's innocence and youth, and only denounce Mohammed for doing much the same thing.

have you realised yet how astronomically slow on the uptake you are?

Mariella's picture

In response to JJ.

You posted a link from the
http://www.meforum.org/2167/iran-genocidal-incitement-israel
which you claim documents Iranian atrocities. However you ommitted to mention the reason/mission for this website and I quote:
Mission

The Middle East Forum promotes American interests in the Middle East and protects the Constitutional order from Middle Eastern threats.

The Forum sees the region — with its profusion of dictatorships, radical ideologies, existential conflicts, border disagreements, corruption, political violence, and weapons of mass destruction — as a major source of problems for the United States. Accordingly, it urges active measures to protect Americans and their allies.

U.S. interests in the Middle East include fighting radical Islam; working for Palestinian acceptance of Israel; robustly asserting U.S. interests vis-à-vis Saudi Arabia; developing strategies to deal with Iraq and contain Iran; and monitoring the advance of Islamism in Turkey.

Domestically, the Forum combats lawful Islamism; protects the freedom of public speech of anti-Islamist authors, activists, and publishers; and works to improve Middle East studies in North America.

I DO BELIEVE YOU HAVE SCORED AN OWN GOAL THERE!!!!!.

writeon1's picture

The real problem with Trolls is that their vehemently held views and opinions, (they really have strong opinions, almost incandescent with rage and bile), are usually in inverse proportion to their actual understanding and knowledge of any particular subject.

It's really difficult not to be drawn into bizarre and destructive "discussions" with them, but one should try, because attention is what they desire most of all. Don't feed the Trolls!

Briar's picture

Thanks. Great article. Sadly it's human nature to prefer the fable to the fact if it suits your prejudices, so I don't suppose it will change anything. But it's nice to see the truth for one.

jankaas's picture

how droll, some c-unt pretending to be Mariella. twice no less. and it's so obvious who did this (again). yes you dear.

a new low from a very very low functioning person.

jankaas's picture

oops should be "Mary was underage when she became pregnant with Jesus...."

Julia Harris's picture

Another question we need to ask, would you feel comfortable if the Taliban or Al Qaeda acquired nukes?

Would you be making the same defense of those two groups that Medhi is doing over Iran? Saying such things as well Israel this and Israel that, and the Taliban has never done anything to this one or what Bin Laden has said has been taken out of Context?? etc etc etc...

Feel stupid now??

Sir Michael's picture

@Jankaas - "1) all perpetrators and victims in Islamic countries will be Muslim by default, so to claim there's anything of note when they scream Insha Allah is ridiculous."

It never fails to infuriate me when someone brings this up. Really, when someone is going into a situation which is simply stressful screaming the name of a deity is just what people seem to do in general. To say they must be doing in gods name because they use gods name shows a lack of alertness on their part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gameel_Al-Batouti#Flight_990

When Captain Al Batouti flew Egypt Air 990 into the sea was he doing it for religion? He repeated "Tawkalt ala Allah" over and over again. Although the fact he had been told he'd never fly to the USA again, that he was known as a lecherous dirty old man, and that he'd be having to explain to his family why the airline company were reprimanding him might have had something to do with it.

If that's not enough to explain this little facet of human behaviour...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dsb5HH8m24Y

If one were to follow this logic then that man must be trying to get Fenton the dog back in the name of Jesus Christ.

jimdenham's picture

"Wiped off the map," "erased from the pages of history,"vanish from the page of time": does the exact formulation really make very much difference?

I'm not a Farsi speaker, but I do know that similar variations can be found in almost all translated documents (eg the Bible, Marx), but I'd say Ahmadinejad's meaning is clear, whichever version you choose to regard as most authentic.

But then Mahdi Hasan, as a "one-stater" essentially agrees with Ahmadinejad anyway.

jankaas's picture

"Jankaas if you are so despairing then why on earth do you comment here? It's not like you don't pop up on every single thread on the topic :)"

to provide the balance JJ that your posts require me to contribute...;o)

JJ's picture

Mariella, your use of capital letters in almost every post of yours is a sign of mental instability.

Also, on another thread you praised a poster 'Arminius' who is an antisemite and WW2 revisionist.

You showed your true colours there, Mariella.

In any case, why not try and refute the quotes mentioned in the article if you disagree with them?

Julia Harris's picture

@ writeon, the trouble with a free society is that 'One man's meat is another man's poison' and "one's man troll is another mans hero" copyright Julia Harris 2012.

Julia Harris's picture

Mariella and Mehdi can spout whatever they like, I respect there freedom to do so.

I am happy for them spout there incorrect views as I know my understanding and ideals are superior and better than there - so have no problem in putting them in there place.

Someone mentioned Medhi is supposed to be a (un)professional Journalist, so what? That doesn't give him to right to be correct over what he writes and doesn't mean we have to accept it as gospel and move on - I would imagine even Mehdi might agree with the last bit.

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