Islam's spoils of war..
Arab slave trade STILL HAS NOT STOPPED.You can still buy a sharia compliant slave in the Sudan for $25.
Hundreds of thousands of Europeans were captured by Barbary pirates and sold as slaves in North Africa and the Ottoman Empire between the 16th and 19th centuries.
These slave raids were perpetrated mostly by Arabs and Berbers rather than Ottoman Turks, but during much of the height of the Barbary slave trade in the 16th and 17th centuries the Barbary states were subject to Ottoman jurisdiction and ruled by Ottoman pashas; furthermore, many slaves captured by the Barbary corsairs were sold eastward into Ottoman territories before, during, and after Barbary's period of Ottoman rule.
The American Marines first actions were against the Barbary pirates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

In 1925 slaves were still being bought and sold at Mecca in the ordinary way of trade.

The slave market there consisted of the offspring of local slaves as well as those imported from the Yemen, Africa, and Asia Minor.

By the Treaty of Jedda, May 1927 (art.7), concluded between the British Government and Ibn Sa'ud (King of Nejd and the Hijaz) it was finally agreed to suppress the slave trade in Saudi Arabia. Then by a decree issued in 1936 the importation of slaves into Saudi Arabia was prohibited unless it could be proved that they were slaves at that date.

see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_slavery
AND

As late as 1908, women slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.Armenian girls were sold as slaves for as low as 80 cents during the Armenian Genocide events in 1915.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_%28Ottoman_Empire%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Libya

Care to comment Mehdi?

@Tamina,Feliix,Luddite,Bukskin,imranp

It has to be said, in all of the submissions on this topic, the views expressed are singularly in defence of their particular ethnicity.Irrespective of what their forefathers have done in the historical past, they have chosen to ignore that and concentrate on the historic miscarriages of behavior of the other ethnics. This of coarse is likely to happen as our country consists of a collection of diverse ethnicities coming together under an unwritten constitution which I think by an large serves us all very well indeed.I am puzzled as to why these contributers have not applied their skills at trying to work out why we are at war. As to the arguments put forward I have found James's (and I think I am going to live to regret this) contributions are well researched and thought out.As an ethnic emmigre myself of some 60 years standing I wonder if these gentlemen/persons mentioned above could explore the following:Why is it that English born young men of Pakistanni origin, having been educated by British citizenry ( which include people of their own sect)living in Britain as frecitizens like the rest of us wish to by their actions make a widow of his wifes and an orphan of his child by getting involved in an act of terrorism which is to kill and maim his fellow countrymen? DISCUSS

@Buckskins: Yes. Please leave the UN and NATO. Fuck off. The entire world is sick of American cultural arrogance and neocon foreign policy, projected through the flag-waving brainwashed meatheads you call soldiers. The sheer gall, coupled with monumental ignorance, is astonishing, and Britain, as the hollow shell of a former racist empire, isn't much better.

@MitchX2

your point about the British speeding up decolonization is absolutely no justification for the disgusting inhuman torture and murder of Kenyan Africans in Nazi-style concentration camps.

You also forget that decolonization was an economic necessity (britain was devastated by the second world war) and because of the rise of nationalism in the colonies. I'm surprised you aren't aware of this, particularly in India where nationalism played a crucial role. You also have to look at the rise of the Soviet Union which played an incredibly important role in expediting British flight. Better to lose the empire to anti-imperialist nationalism than Soviet Communism. Moreover, in the post war period imperialism became anathema to international norms.

It wasn't so much British benevolence as international and colonial compulsion that forced the dawn of the British empire.

@felix

I've watched the youtube video and your figures are wild and unsubstantiated much like the video - a complete incredulous joke!

Your point about the Islamic empire in the first 100 years is just so monumentally blunt and historically ignorant. It is both glib and depressing. Who do you think the Islamic empire was expanding against? Was it poor old neutral Belgium? OR WAS IT THE EAST FRICKIN ROMAN EMPIRE!!!!! THE ROMAN EMPIRE THAT RAPED AND PILLAGED FOR FREAKIN KICKS!!!! THAT HAD INVADED ARABIA!!! AND THE SASANID EMPIRE!!! IT WAS THE AGE OF EMPIRES!!!! THERE WAS NO FRICKIN U.N. YOU COMPLETE MORON!!!!!! YOU EXPAND OR PERISH!!! COMPLETE INTERNATIONAL ANARCHY YOU FREAKIN MORON!!! LOOK AT THE FATE OF CHRISTIANS UNDER THE ROMAN EMPIRE!!! LOOK AT THE JEWS ALSO!!! LOOK AT THEIR PERSECUTION BY THE ROMANS!!! AHHHHHHH YOU MORON!!!! YOU COMPLETE IGNORAMUS!!! WHY SHOULD EARLY MUSLIMS SUFFER PERSECUTION, MURDER TORTURE AND MASS RAPE???! LOOK AT ISLAMIC LAWS OF WAR, SOMETHING THE DISGUSTING ROMAN EMPIRE COULD ONLY DREAM OF EMULATING!!! LOOK AT CRUSADER ACCOUNTS OF THE HUMANITY OF ISLAMIC LAWS OF WAR!!! AHHHHHH YOU'RE SO THICKKKK!!!!!!! THE ARABS HAD A SAYING IF YOU DON'T ATTACK THE ROMANS THEY ATTACK YOU!!!! YOU COMPLETE MORON!! THEY WERE REALSITS!!! AHHHHHHHHHHH *if anyone makes one more stupid remark about the expansion of the islamic empire as if it was a time of human rights, democracy, and international politics was conducted under the auspices of international law, the UN and an internationally agreed concept of political or religious sovereignty MY HEAD WILL EXPLOOODDEEEEEEEEEE*

Your point about Slaves is even MORE MORONIC! Islamic slavery is vastly different to cruel evil European slavery. Under Islamic law slaves have rights! Lots of them. From what I can gather, Mohammed wanted it abolished and had his edicts been adhered to it would have been abolished through time. It isn't good and it was a mistake on the part of the Muslim world and it should be COMPLETELY ABOLISHED.

But it isn't anywhere near as harmful as Western trade practices that continue to kill millions of young babies and children though poverty induced starvation and disease.

@Stuart

1. "I agree that the Iraq was an awful error (although most of the deaths are due to the Shia-Sunni feud),"

2. "I also agree that the Vietnam war was a terrible mistake"

I find your terminology quite interesting. You're clearly a rabid ideologue and apologist from wars of agression. I wouldn't call the Iraq war an "error" no matter what adjective you place before it. I think I prefer the judgment of The International Military Tribunal at Nuremberg, which called the waging of aggressive war "essentially an evil thing... [which]is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime." Ummm yeah I definitely think that's a better description of a war of aggression which the Iraq war was according to international law.

Regarding you point about sunni's and shii's doing it to each other. Hmmm ever heard of the legal definition of causality? It's called the but-for-test - applied here: but for the war of aggression the mass slaughter would not have ensued. This is the definition adopted at Nuremburg it states that a war of aggression differs "only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole." This includes the Pandora's box that is always a real likelihood of being opened when you invade a country. BTW a very large proportion of those deaths are by occupation forces and hired mecenaries MAKE NO MISTAKE ABOUT THAT.

Regarding 2. Vietnam was a big mistake? Hmmm 3 million deliberately killed in a war of aggression. By your standards I could describe the holocaust as a mistake (which I NEVER would or could). Stuart your views are clearly racist - only a racist could place such little significance on the deaths of 3 million people of a different race. SHAME ON YOU - you make me queasy....

You should all be ashamed of yourselves...

@DaMan.

" The danger however for the USA has become the classical one of old, in "becoming, what thee have beheld"

The only land the US ever wanted was enough to bury our dead.

Luddite,
“ India was never one country until the British arrived,”

What is it about “Gandhi begged Mountbatten to leave India one country. “ that you don’t understand?

“and if millions of muslims, didn't wish to live in a overwhelmingly Hindu country, who could stop them leaving, “

No one, and your point is?

“as for your bit about the Scottish highlanders, the last battle on British soil was mainly a Scottish affair. “

Who was talking about “the last battle on British soil?”

“It's like the Argentines talking about Britain's ownership of the Falklands in anti-colonialist terms. 80% of Argentines are of Italian and Spanish ancestry. With a few dodgie Germans, and Welsh thrown in. Only 8% are native to that land. Not unlike United States”

I can only conclude it may have been Saturday evening when you posted this.

Hippie Wizard. You frequent a strange mix-up world. 'Thank god for the United States'. If it hadn't being for them, and that 'racist empire' You would now be living in a vile totalitarian world.

@Buckskins: interesting synopsis of the British Empire and for which it is hard to disagree, and for which indeed it looks that the former colonies, the US oF A has had to suffer the clean-up role as world power. The danger however for the USA has become the classical one of old, in "becoming, what thee have beheld."

@felix

But what is your point? If Arabs have engaged in a slave trade, does this make the excesses of US and UK Empire any more acceptable?

Are you not just caught in a narrow us-versus-them game of self-justification? Does this slave-trade justify invading Afghanistan and Iraq?

Were these two wars launched to protect African Slaves? C'mon, get a grip.

@'james'
"I've watched the youtube video and your figures are wild and unsubstantiated much like the video - a complete incredulous joke!"

Unfortunately the joke is on you.

As late as 1908, women slaves were still sold in the Ottoman Empire.Armenian girls were sold as slaves for as low as 80 cents during the Armenian Genocide events in 1915.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_%28Ottoman_Empire%29

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Libya

or try

The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of Non-Muslims: Islamic Holy War & the Fate of Non-Muslims

This book reveals how, for well over a millennium, across three continents - Asia, Africa, and Europe - non-Muslims who were vanquished by jihad wars, became forced tributaries (called dhimmi in Arabic), in lieu of being slain.

Under the dhimmi religious apartheid system, non-Muslims were subjected to legal and financial oppression, as well as social isolation.
Extensive primary and secondary source materials, many translated here for the first time into English, are presented, making clear that jihad conquests were brutal, imperialist advances, which spurred waves of Muslims to expropriate a vast expanse of lands and subdue millions of indigenous peoples. Finally, the book examines how jihad war, as a permanent and uniquely Islamic institution, ultimately regulates the relations of Muslims with non-Muslims to this day.

@imranp
"Here we go again copying and pasting the same old islamophobic bulls**t from the internet. Why don't you try writing something interesting or useful for once, 'O' I guess you probably cant."

Qur'an 4:92 Surah An-Nisa (Women)
It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless it be by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set

free a believing slave,

and pay the blood money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free

a believing slave.

And if he cometh of a folk between whom and you there is a covenant, then the blood money must be paid unto his folk and (also)

a believing slave

must be set free. And whoso hath not the wherewithal must fast two consecutive months. A penance from Allah. Allah is Knower, Wise.

You see you set free a believing slave ie a Muslim...a good incentive for slaves to become Muslim they might get set free,but they might not...

and

Qur'an 2:221 Surah Al-Baqarah (The Cow)
Wed not idolatresses till they believe; for lo!

a believing slave

is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo!

a believing slave

is better than an idolater though he please you.
These invite unto the Fire, and Allah inviteth unto the Garden, and unto forgiveness by His grace, and expoundeth thus His revelations to mankind that haply they may remember.

"a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you."
straight from the Koran..if that is not segregation I don't know what is...seems like Islam is total phobic of the 'other' doesn't it.

@Daniel
acceptable? I dont accept slavery by anyone for any reason .
EVEN AS SPOILS OF WAR....
as slavery is regarded in the Koran.

Mehdi,
it has come to my attention that you'll be on Question Time with John Redwood and Vince Cable.

Why don't you entertain the nation giving them a piece of your tedious Keynesian remedies to our economic woes. Just don't cry when they're done with you.

{MitchX2
23 September 2010 at 20:02
@Buckskins a number of things I have a problem with on your posts is a basic misunderstanding of British history.}

1. You may be missing my point of view. I’m looking at this as an American. Up until PM Thatcher took office your unions were Communist controlled. There were plenty of Communists in the UK prior to WW2. Your country is a Socialist country. To me that is one step from Communism. As an American I say this. What thanks did we get for fighting in Europe during WW2. You can go to any site on the net and the bile and venom being spewed at us from the UK is unreal. The Soviet Union was more than capable of rolling up Europe with our logistics, to include the UK at a later date. What did West Germans ever do to enjoy 50 years of prosperity while Poland was thrown to the wolves. We had no business in Europe. The Soviet Union would have imploded all the quicker with Western Europe to include the UK hanging around its neck. We need out of Europe now to include the UN and NATO. I have plenty of friends who feel the same way. Europe spends next to nothing on its defense. It’s time they started.

2. I did not say we fight to the last American. We had NO type of business in Bosnia. That’s YOUR backyard and not ours. We are not the world’s policeman or anything like it. Even as we speak the UK is slashing its already pitiful military budget.
Yes we took the natives land from them. As the UK did with the 13 colonies. We paid Mexico for everything north of the Rio Grande except for Texas which we Texans fought Mexico for. How do you think Mexico got it? We did support dictatorships in South America to include Chili and others. Were we supposed to let our backyard go Communist with a cold war going on?

3. You abolished slavery because it was in your financial self interest to do so. Your Indian plantations could not compete with our Southern states. When England abolished slavery it was not Empire wide. It was local.

4. There is nothing the British Empire did that was not for the UK. Roads, Railway, Language, and Law ECT are a byproduct of English commerce requirements. Those poor countries were looted and taxed to terminal starvation on more than one occasion. They were invaded and occupied at the point of a Brown Bess. Trillions of pounds were stolen from Africa alone. Look at the mess ya’al left the world in. Ghandi begged Mountbatten (Of Burma) what arrogance, to leave India as one country. Look at it now. A Nuclear war waiting to happen. The mid east the same way. Iraq drawn on a map and created by ya’al and the French without any regard to ethnic and religious differences. And evidently the Kurds were not worth consideration. Forget what other smaller Empires did. Take a long hard look at the devastation and misery you left in your greedy wake. It’s not even taught in your schools. The British Empire is something you boast about. Look at what you did to the Irish for 600 years, and the Scottish Highlanders. It goes on and on.

The average citizen in the Western world is completely in the dark when it comes to reasons why "we are at war". Most believe anything their political leaders say-'if we do not fight them over there we will end up fighting them here'. 'They hate us because of our freedom'. 'Our troops will not fire a shot in anger'. 'it only takes 45 minutes' and many more. On most comments board you will find individuals simply regurgitate what they hear their Politicians say so we all end up going round in circles, wondering why things never get better. One simple fact will help; how on earth will the Taliban successfully make it to a Western city, drop a few bombs and start a fire fight? By kite? Well that's the closest they have ever come to flying a B52 or F16/17.
These wars are a complete waste of time and money. In ten years nothing substantial has been achieved, in uncertain times all the money wasted on these wars could go a long way.

@James ..My point was that Imperialism is not just a western phenomana ,islamists today still aspires to be a world wide empire.
ARAB'S TRADED 30 - 40 MILLION AFRICAN SLAVES for which you will never find any apology or regret.

The horrendous trans Atlantic slave trade lasted 4 centuries Islamic slave trade has lasted 14 centuries in the Middle East and continues to exists today in many Muslim countries.
Read John Alembillah Alembillah Azumah,Legacy of Arab-Islam in Africa: A Quest for Inter-Religious Dialogue.

The Koran allows for slaves to be taken as booty in war/jihad and this is therefore correct for all time according to Islam.

If you dare to have your closed minded views challenged.

see

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wsaPQ8jOqGo

@Felix

BORING! Going to completely ignore you from now on.

Felix is not boring. If his truth hits a nerve that is no call for a personal attack.

“Remember the My Lai massacre? Remember Abu Ghraib? Guantanamo? Extraordinary Redition? “

1. My Lai massacre. Inexcusable despite the fact they had been taking small arms fire from that village for over a year.

2. Abu Ghraib. Oh yeah, we stripped them naked and had dogs woof at em.

3. Guantanamo. Extraordinary Redition ??? Water boarding is part of every US Special Forces training. Your own SAS have probably endured the same procedure.

1. The British slave trade. The life expectancy of a British slave on a Caribbean sugar plantation was 7 years. They died by the Million. The British abolished slavery 30 years before the US because they could no longer compete with our southern plantations. Would you like to discuss the Millions the British starved to death in India?

2. 1945-1948 The British tortured and murdered in British camps an unknown number of German Communists post WW2.

3. The 1950’s Kenya. The British tortured and murdered hundreds of Kenyans who were suspected of sympathizing with the Mau Mau. This included Obama’s Grandfather who was tortured for over a year.

You British are responsible for more death and misery in the world than The Third Reich, Pol Pot, and Stalin combined. Half the problems in the world today are the result of past British greed and Imperialism. Please spare me the bad Americans spiel.

The British are responsible for more deaths, then the Third Reich, Pol.Pot and Stalin combined? It's often said, America spends more on education then any other nation, i can see why, they bloody need it. JAMES. YOU!! are everything that is wrong with the political-left.

@Buckskins
"You British are responsible for more death and misery in the world than etc etc"
Now if you had said the British aristocracy I may be able to agree with you a little more.
It was only in 1918 that in the United Kingdom all males over the age of 21 were granted the right to vote and women over 30, with some property restrictions.
see
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_suffrage

@ staurt

"Remember that only powerful nations can seriously affect other countries, so it is inevitable that in the last century America has caused the death of more people than, for example, Ireland."

Similarly we could argue, it was only because of the industrial and technological advancement of Nazi-germany that the Holocaust occurred. Industrial methods of human destruction are a corollary of industrial advancement. Therefore, it's only natural that nazi-Germany carried out the holocaust rather than say anti-semitic Eastern Europe.

Just as bombing of civilian centres is the natural product of an advanced militarized aviation technology.

Sorry Stuart doesn't wash. Go back to the drawing board on justifying imperialism, wars of aggression and mass slaughter.

We should also note, parenthetically, that before the US was a "powerful nation" it engaged in the genocide of native Americans. Oh but then you could argue, compared to native-Americans they were a powerful nation. Oh ok, see now that genocide isn't so bad... groan

God Stu, is there anything there between those ears of yours?