''Des Demona - is the Liechtenstein analogy fatuous? Would you pronounce on women's rights in that country based on something you saw on the news, in passing?''

We are not talking about pronouncing on womens rights based on 'something you saw in the news, in passing.' Firstly because the poll talks about 'associate'. It very carefully does not state that it is a firmly held belief so your use of 'pronounce' seems inappropriate . Secondly it is fact that in certain Islamic countries female education is barred or restricted. This is not a judgement based on a passing news item. It is happening. Corporal punishment and/or mutilation for sex outside marriage is a fact in certain countries. Beating you wife in certain circumstances is sanctioned in certain Islamic countries. Do you recall 'Death of a princess'? That in itself is what could give rise to a perceived association between Islam and lack of women's rights.

Your Lichtenstein argument takes a completely absurd hypothesis and asks us to equate it with fact. Therefore it is fatuous. So much so that I wonder if you're just having a laugh?

Siraj - ''To deny the holocaust is an offence, but to vilify a Prophet of a religion is freedom of speech. I am in no way denying the holocaust - it was tragic and the loss of lives is utterly disgraceful - but we must treat situations as equal.''

Why? One is based on fact and one is based on opinion. They are not equal. Personally I don't believe holocaust denial should be an offence. Those who deny it always sound rather silly and best to let them sound off and show how imbecilic they are. Equally I don't believe that death threats and killings should form part of the rhetoric of a religion. Those who issue them always sound rather silly. The problem is that certain sections do more than sound off, they kill.

and - 'If that it is indeed the scenario, then you would surely know that before there were death threats issued against Geert Wilders, there were many peaceful attempts to remove the cartoons from online web pages. Time after time, this was denied, yet of course this was not mentioned in the mainstream media.''

So are you saying that the fact that it was requested that the cartoons were removed and subsequently weren't was justification for death threats to be issued? Not in my version of a civilised society thanks very much.

Well said Sana.

The vitriole from some is astounding. The double standards equally so. These derogatory comments on all matters Islam would not be amiss gracing the pages of the Daily Star, The Mail, The Sun -tabloids whose sole aim is to disseminate poison to the uneducated masses.

Have they ever considered that extremism is more likely a result of decades of awful foreign policy inflicted on these people by our Western so called democracies than it is down to a religion. People are very quick to point out the speck in someone else's eye whilst ignoring the ruddy big plank in their own.

Frederick Chichester do you have your own brain or do you just copy others? So you are saying that Christian are Murderers because you were told that Christains killed millions of Jews.

"My immediate response -- apart from holding my head in my hands and feeling very depressed -- is to note a tension in these results. If the majority of Britons (60 per cent) admit to pollsters that they "don't know very much about Islam", why then do they choose to "associate" Islam with terrorism and extremism and take such a firm view on Islam's treatment of women?"

I think the NS is in a position to challenge the extremists. For instance, some 90 Muslims were killed in a mosque in Pakistan by other Muslims for being "the wrong kind of Muslim" but from what I can see the NS hasn't picked up on this.

Given the close association between many British Muslims and Pakistan, isn't this newsworthy? The thoughts and motivations that lie behind it?

The NS could also do more to expose those pushing an intolerant view of women and of non-Muslims, for instance Saudia Arabia or Iran, and their provision of financial and religious support to Islamic institutions in the UK.

Then there would be no need to put your head in your hands, Mehdi, you would be leading from the front.

I'm a white female and I live in Bradford. If I go shopping on a Saturday afternoon in the city centre, wearing jeans and a t-shirt, I can guarantee you I will get racial abuse hurled at me from young Asian males. The majority of these males (if not all) will be Muslims. I have never had any abuse from anyone wearing a turban, or from a black, white, chinese, japanese, european (etc) person. This isn't a racist opinion, it is sadly a fact in my life that I am expected to put up with because (as I was told by a police officer)if I complained about racist abuse I would be the one who would be branded racist and nothing would be done about it because as soon as the males involved were questioned they would claim the police were being racist. That is an absolute joke. My Muslim female friend refuses to get married as she says, and this is her opinion, all young Muslim males are nasty, violent and make other Muslims look bad.

If you thought we have problems with white working class boys, we've got even more problems with young disaffected Muslim boys.
Somehow both have got to be brought back into the fabric of society otherwise we are heading for trouble. And that starts in the home with more parental involvement and control in their lives.
Its not just a youth thing, hoping they'll grow out of it. They won't; then it'll be too late.

Sana - I absolutely agree with pretty much everything you say. However the original post by Mehdi wasn't to the effect that those polled said Islam 'is' an extremist religion. It was concerning the fact that those polled 'associated' Islam with extremism. It's not quite the same thing. Leaving aside the more idiotic posts in the 'go back to your own country' vein etc, the poll has to be taken in the context that we in Britain have recently suffered mass murder supposedly in the name of Islam. Of course most right minded muslims abhor the acts of a minority but that association remains, no doubt to the joy of those who perpretrated the acts because their intention is to cause division. However, Mehdi's original post seemed to indicate that he had no understanding of how that association came about in the minds of those polled. I suspect he was playing devil's advocate because it is patently obvious why that association is made. Like all polls it depends on what question is asked and in what context. I state again that if the question being asked was 'do you think that any more than a miniscule minority of muslims, are extremists then the answer would have been a resounding no. However it is an unfortunate fact that a miniscule minority are, and whether that is due to an incorrect reading of the Quran or not, the fact remains that their religion is their justification.

A rather obtuse post, Mehdi. We don't read about Liechteinsteinean suicide bombers, do we? Nor do we see the women of Liechteinstein walking around the streets covered from head to toe.

If Britons associate Islam with bad things, then blame the extremists who pervert (or so we're told) the faith.

So Frederick, just because you see a women covered in the street you immediately think someone is oppressing her? Before making your assumption you should consider the fact that she made her own choice

When I see a women dressed provocatively
I don't think all English women are harlots go I?

We have a Government mechanism that needs to associate those negatives in our minds, otherwise what's the point in chasing around the middle east killing them all? Someone in the MoD will be thinking this is a result. The Beeb bleat about such terrible things but never report Afghan or Iraqi deaths, never seek to humanise the victims of UK state violence. No surprises, unfortunately. You didn't mention Jainism did you Frederick, which rather proves Mehdi's point.

Agree with the points made by FC above.

It's perhaps telling that this is the first time I've ever heard of this Quilliam Foundation.

Perhaps if moderate Muslim voices had been heard loud and clear over the last 10 years, we wouldn't be where we are now.

Finally, if your objective is to remedy the misconceptions, rather than just to sneer at the 'ignorant Britons' I suggest a less perjorative tone would be more productive.

Best,
AJ

"why then do they choose to "associate" Islam with terrorism and extremism and take such a firm view on Islam's treatment of women"

Like you I hold my head in my hands if this is not obvious to you.
By contrast, in seeking to disassociate Islam and these events, please furnish us with a list of historic events that have benefited the planet in a similar time period that can directly attributed to Islam. No? I couldn't think of one either...

I 'associate' Germany with Hitler. I associate Brazil with football. I associate fish with chips. It's quite possible that not all Germans are Hitler,not all Brazillians can play football and trout and chips isn't a good mix.
One thing I definitely associate are polls and agendas.
Have to say Mehdi the Lichtenstein argument is entirely fatuous. Of course people 'associate' Islam with terrorism in the same way they used to associate Ireland and the IRA.
If the question had been 'Do you think most people following the muslim faith are terrorists?' then I think the results would have been considerably different.

Doh! Let me see...

People may not know all the intricacies of Islam, but what they do see they understand -- baying mobs threatening to destroy all the kafirs.

And what about 'taqiyyah', a major objective of which is to downplay the threat of Islam. The goal is to fool potential victims that jihad is not directed at them.

On your recent appearance on Question Time, I thought you displayed breathtaking arrogance.

''....as opposed to a 2 centuries old death cult from an equally arid region''

Two centuries? Equally arid region? Is it the Mormons?

"...as opposed to a 2 centuries old death cult from an equally arid region which has wiped out indigenous poulations all over the world in the name of its lord?"

Firstly I presume you mean 2 millenia & therefore imply christianity.

Next, you cannot disprove one association by implying another. Whatever Christianity, or judaism, or any other religion (or lack of) does or does not do, has no relevance to the tendancy for Islam towards violent extremism.

How many other religions have issued worldwide death threats for writing a novel, or drawing a cartoon? The thousands that demonstrated in our streets and threatened beheadings and death are why we associate Islam with extremism. Until moderates, stand up for themselves and with the non-belivers against the violent extremists, accept that others who do not belive do not have to follow their archaic religious teachings then they quite rightly will be counted as supporters of that extremism.

I don't want to know any religion that curtails people's freedom of expression. Islam has stopped free speech and is slowly killing our democracy.

Islam does not belong in Europe nor in the US. Islam has its own countries and should stay there!

Britons don't want Islam in their country. They want their own way of life and traditions to continue and not be blighted by mosques and the sight of people in arab clothes. That all belongs in another world.

You still don't get it, do you?

There is nothing good about Islam. Period.

It contains 123 verses that call for the killings of all the Jews, Christians and non-muslims.

The remainder are full of gibberish, scientifically wrong facts. It has got its history and geography wrong. If the Quoran is the words of Allah then that Allah could NOT be the REAL GOD. It must be the 31 inches meteorite stone hidden in the Kaaba in Mecca. No true God could make 1,000s of mistakes like that Allah. Period

I afraid the only people to blame for this poll are the moderate muslims who have done nothing to consistently criticise extremist muslim terrorists and bad practices within Islam. If they have done anything at all it is only ever whispered.

Robert, you'll find verses can be fished out of the Qur'an likening the killing of an innocent human being to the killing of all mankind. However, you're not wrong: religions which see this life as just a prelude to or diversion from an infinitely more important imaginary life, cannot truly respect life. True believers scorn death because they scorn life.

@Jim

I note that whilst correctly appreciating I think Islam (indeed all religion) is archaic, you disagree, yet offer nothing by way of evidence. I have no doubt on an individual basis some Muslims contribute to whatever society they happen to dwell in. But I maintain, and you have provided nothing to refute it, that this has nothing to do with their faith, and as a religion it has produced little if anything in the 20th and 21st centuries of any worth. (Let alone evidence to back up it's claims of validity)

Since you seem to think (erroneously) that again denouncing one thing [modernity] somehow proves the validity of another, I would counter your argument that whilst indeed we saw Nazism (can I invoke Godwins law yet?) and the third world, it also produces on occasion, universal suffrage, the forces that countered both extreme right and extreme left wing ideology, world wide charities, universal education, medical care free at the point of delivery to name but a few.

And before you jump so readily to criticise Britain's past remember that members of her armed forces died trying to enforce the abolition of slavery in the Atlantic, and virtually unsupported initially opposed the colonisation of Palestine.

Finally, have the good manners to read a post sensibly and offer a reasoned argument before ever comparing me to Kilroy.

that striving towards inevitable modernity that's given us colonies, nazism, genocides and a third world?

And I bet if this survey was done in the 1990's when the Is-Pal conflict was still on, war in the gulf the word association would be with Ireland and not Muslims.

Perhaps you might associate Jainism with terrorism if Jainists had exploded themselves on London buses.