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116 comments from readers

Serosch
10 July 2008 at 18:56

You’re quite happy accepting gifts from the Zionist mob who have stolen Palestine, yet you are offended by the people who are to all intents and purposes are fighting for the freedom of their people and nation.

knave
10 July 2008 at 18:59

Who developed and financed Hamas in it's early days. So they could undermind the secular FATAH.

Multiple choice

1. East Grinstead Labour Party.

2. Ken Livingstone.

3. Mossad, CIA and Isreali hawks who are no supported by the likes of Bright, Harrys place and Tory Nick and "orrible" Oliver.

Nick Cohen
10 July 2008 at 19:06

Er, so why do you support it then? I've blogged on this, Martin, and written to Catherine F asking what on earth she thinks she's playing at. You should do the same.

knave
10 July 2008 at 19:13

Hello Tory Nick.

When have I ever supported Hamas. Show me the post.

In fact I despise the mullahs but I don't much like right wing supporters of Christian fundamentalist governments.

Martin Bright
10 July 2008 at 19:21

These arguments are so daft, it's hardly worth responding. I seem to remember that the CIA had something to do with funding the Afghan resistance. That didn't turn out too well either.

knave
10 July 2008 at 19:39

I agree Martin.

That is the point.

The Reaganite right , the pre cursors to you neo cons have created these monsters. Now they want to bomb women, children and conscripts, steal oil and imprison trades unionists because the mullahs, like the commies before them are a useful enemy.

In the end they only ones who will die are the innocents on both sides.

Martin Bright
10 July 2008 at 19:57

We agree then. How lovely

knave
10 July 2008 at 20:07

I have actually agreed with you on a number of points.

knave
10 July 2008 at 21:03

Also I do love the idea of stalls giving away free goodies such as AK47's and Humus.

Also like those sad conventions when you can get autographs from sci "heroes" you could have a version with Osama and abu hamza.

Thank god for Sacha Cohen , he uses humour to burst the HAMAS bubble not rockets that kill kids.

redharry
10 July 2008 at 22:22

Martin was due to debate with John Esposito, Soumaya Ghannoushi, Alastair Crooke, and Robert Leiken. Clearly he was out of his depth as the others actually know something about Islamism and would destroy Bright's received neo-con opinions. Bright has taken the coward's way out yet again. How much nicer to sip champagne at Annabels with Nick Cohen and Paul Wolfowitz.

selva
11 July 2008 at 02:11

The panel of your debate in Expo is formed of John Esposito,Robert Lieken,Alster Crooke and Soumaya Ghannoushi and chaired by Demos.Are these BNP like people you can not have debate with?!! What a rediculous argument.With whom do you want to have debate with,with Ed Hussain and his like!!?You lost the argument and you have no place to present.Is this the democracy you promote,you only have debate with your likes?! The winner in this are the organisers of IslamExpo who exposed you to all!

Martin Bright
11 July 2008 at 09:51

For the record, I have never sipped champagne at Annabel's.

I am happy to debate anyone on this issue and have done so on a number of platforms, including Ken Livingstone's absurd Islamist-fest last year. In fact I have made a point of taking on my opponents in debate. It has always been my contention that it is important to take the argument to the Islamic right.

So I have mixed feelings about pulling out of the debate, but I have never felt comfortable about lending my name to a Hamas event.

Now that the organiser of that event is trying to close down debate by taking legal action against Harry's Place, I really have no choice.

finniestoncrane
11 July 2008 at 10:31

I see the difficulty, Mr Bright, but you must surely have confidence, given the website's account of what happened, that it does not have a case to answer. Take these cranks to town would be my advice.

If I were Mr Sawalha I'd be looking for alternative representation, given the number of errors in the letter it has sent to Harry's Place.

gondwanaland
11 July 2008 at 10:41

Martin.

So you feel uncomfortable taking part in a debate organised by the democratically elected government of Palestine?

I do sympathise with you re the "legal action against Harry's Place"

But...

You're not "lending your name" to anything Martin, you're taking part in a discussion. And by refusing to take part you're depriving viewers of a different POV that i suspect would broaden the debate in a positive way.

All in all. A cop out.

Martin Bright
11 July 2008 at 11:00

My name was used in the promotional material for the event and the involvement of the New Statesman and Demos (let alone government ministers and senior politicians) lends legitimacy to it.

And yes, I feel uncomfortable taking part in anything organised by Hamas sympathisers. People have elected for some very unpleasant people into power in recent history. It doesn't mean I have to accept their views.

oceanclub
11 July 2008 at 12:34

"So you feel uncomfortable taking part in a debate organised by the democratically elected government of Palestine?"

I do love this idea that Hamas supporters use, that because they are democratically elected, we're supposed to support them. An idea they never seem to apply to Silvio Berlusconi or Joerg Haider.

P.

redharry
11 July 2008 at 13:09

'And yes, I feel uncomfortable taking part in anything organised by Hamas sympathisers.' But not uncomfortable going on an expenses paid trip to Israel funded by an right-wing arms dealer? What a hypocrite you are. No problem having a cosy chat with the far-right of Shiire Network News either. Clearly you have a problem with anyone who resists Israeli occupation.

redharry
11 July 2008 at 13:46

Meanwhile, Martin's mate Ed Husain is on a Foreign Office jaunt to Egypt ( a dictatorship, but on our side) where he made this extraordinary statement to the local press.

http://www.dailystaregypt.com/article.aspx?ArticleID=14941

“The government has distanced itself from the Muslim Council of Britain, because it is dominated by political Muslims,” says Hussein. “They were jettisoned by government post 7/7 because they refused to condemn the ideology behind terrorism, and they refuse to admit publicly that there is an ideology behind it. As a result, the government has looked for these good people.”

He goes on, The struggle against a politicized Islam is something, according to Hussein, that Britain and Egypt share, but he praises the efforts of the Egyptian Grand Mufti in helping to transform the mindsets of imprisoned Islamists such as Ayman Zuhdi.

“Sheikh Ali Gomaa has been successful in at least injecting doubt in their rigidity, and helping turn out around their mindset is because he’s a scholar who is rooted in scripture, its diversity and its inherent pluralism,” he says.

More

But as Hussein himself says, just because the government has endorsed a certain project, doesn’t make it wrong.

“No doubt there will be people who criticize this trip, some of us have already been painted as apostates when we started speaking out against terrorism,” says Hassan, “But the people at the foreign office have a positive intention.”

For those who don't know, Sheikh Ali Gomaa is a supporter of the Munarak dictatorship.

http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Ali-Gomaa

Gomaa also supports

Suicide bombing in Israel

Killing Israeli civilians outside Israel

Wife-beating

But hey, unlike Qaradawi, he' s our kinda guy!

Martin Bright
11 July 2008 at 16:13

Easy red. I am not responsible for Ed Husein's actions or thoughts.

As for Shire Network News, I'm flattered you were listening. You must be googling me pretty much all the time.

You miss the point entirely. I has accepted the invitation to speak on a Hamas platform and would have done so had one of the organisers not sued Harry's Place.

Happy to argue with Hamas, neo-cons, fascists and even you, redharry. Whoever you are.

Morgan097
11 July 2008 at 17:47

Mr redhairy.

Am new to sight but you talk diffrent.

Please to tell us about self.

knave
11 July 2008 at 22:11

Morgan are you Martin's US right wing attack dog. Anybody who disgrees with are are insulted or threatened.

knave
11 July 2008 at 22:23

Happy to argue with neo-cons,

Why argue with yourself Martin?

Morgan097
11 July 2008 at 22:39

knave, old boy.

Why the hostility?

I never even heard of Martin until I noticed his name above a number of delightfully heated exchanges.

You, more than anyone here, should realize that when he includes neocons among his antagonists he becomes highly unlikely to endear himself to me.

It's relatively easy to listen to someone like you who, though clearly misguided, at least makes an honest effort to be fair.

But reading the agitprop efforts of guys like redharry is for me like stepping into a time capsule.

He's straight out of a late '30s issue of the Daily Worker, and I half expect him to approvingly explain the necessity of the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact at any moment.

Don't the details of this person's background even pique your interest?

Morgan097
11 July 2008 at 23:20

And thanks to you, I'll probably never get to the no doubt thrilling conclusion of the Culling the Badgers piece.

harp
12 July 2008 at 01:20

Martin, why not go, and just tell everybody what a bunch of low-life's they all are. Maybe it could be therapeutic for you. Or maybe you should just attend because its sometimes nice to try to understand other peoples views.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 02:18

Hiya, Harp!

Pleased to meet you.

I especially admire your caring attitude..

"Or maybe you should just attend because its [sic] sometimes nice to try to understand other peoples [sic] views."

Well, son of a gun!

If that ain't EXACTLY the same advice that some equally-helpful Lakota Sioux scout offered Ol' Georgie Custer just before the love fest at the Little Big Horn!

harp
12 July 2008 at 02:35

Well Morgan, Custer was asking for it...

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 02:43

So was "Chinese" Gordon.

But that didn't do much credit to Gladstone, either

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 02:57

Come to think of it, considering the striking similarities between current Islamists and their 1885 Mahdist predecessors, the Khartoum analogy sounds particularly apropos.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 03:04

And being a typically heartless neocon, I'd naturally prefer to send Kitchener in Marty's place.

redharry
12 July 2008 at 03:13

A different view of Israel from Bright's hasbara piece.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1000976.html

Twilight Zone / 'Worse than apartheid'

By Gideon Levy

I thought they would feel right at home in the alleys of Balata refugee camp, the Casbah and the Hawara checkpoint. But they said there is no comparison: for them the Israeli occupation regime is worse than anything they knew under apartheid. This week, 21 human rights activists from South Africa visited Israel. Among them were members of Nelson Mandela's African National Congress; at least one of them took part in the armed struggle and at least two were jailed. There were two South African Supreme Court judges, a former deputy minister, members of Parliament, attorneys, writers and journalists. Blacks and whites, about half of them Jews who today are in conflict with attitudes of the conservative Jewish community in their country. Some of them have been here before; for others it was their first visit.

For five days they paid an unconventional visit to Israel - without Sderot, the IDF and the Foreign Ministry (but with Yad Vashem, the Holocaust Memorial and a meeting with Supreme Court President Justice Dorit Beinisch. They spent most of their time in the occupied areas, where hardly any official guests go - places that are also shunned by most Israelis.

On Monday they visited Nablus, the most imprisoned city in the West Bank. From Hawara to the Casbah, from the Casbah to Balata, from Joseph's Tomb to the monastery of Jacob's Well. They traveled from Jerusalem to Nablus via Highway 60, observing the imprisoned villages that have no access to the main road, and seeing the "roads for the natives," which pass under the main road. They saw and said nothing. There were no separate roads under apartheid. They went through the Hawara checkpoint mutely: they never had such barriers.

...

Go to the link and read the whole article for the truth about Apartheid Israel.

harp
12 July 2008 at 03:22

Guess your right, I'd spare Marty too.

harp
12 July 2008 at 03:25

Oh and Morgan I think that charge against redharry, Daily Worker and such, could be leveled against me.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 03:29

Hey Mr Redhairy!

Hello to you!

When you rite it remind me of verse to old faverit song:

"We'd like to know a little bit about you for our files,

We'd like to help you learn to help yourself,

Look about you, all you see are sympathetic eyes,

Stroll around the grounds until you feel at home..."

Please-please Mr Hairy!

Tell us about youself.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 03:31

Harp, good buddy,

Don't destroy all my illusions.

knave
12 July 2008 at 06:45

Morgan redharry just ignores you.

It must irritate.

The point about Sudan in the 1880's isn't that bad. that situation was caused by Muslim extremists and land grabbing imperialist westerners.

Who says history isn't cyclic.

knave
12 July 2008 at 08:42

Also Martin

You wrote a piece named the "Brave new world" in which your labelled bloggers as cowards and vicious. And yet now you laud them.

Now somebody has challenged one of these sites with the libel law, you complain and throw your toys out of the window.

Perhaps you think there should be only one type of site, right wing and neo con in flavour. Then what they say is perfectly OK even if it is libel. Hari also challenged the "place" and he is certainly is no islamist. Would you enter a debate with that great man. Using your logic you won't

Also isn't this individual using British law to challenge remarks that may be untrue (if they are not ,Harry place will win the case, as in the Aitkin case) , the correct action.

knave
12 July 2008 at 10:43

I do apologize If they are correct

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 13:11

knave, old pal,

What confuses me about harry's non-reaction is the apparent contradiction between harry's enthusiasm for throwing Martin to the wolves and his refusal to share with us, his adoring audience, even the slightest tidbit of his own indubitably illustrious biography.

And I certainly appreciate your astute comparisan of the Sudan of the 1880s to the present mideast panorama.

But for one minor exception:

Unlike present day Jewish Israelis, "western imperialists" never shared the DNA of those Jews, who since time immemorial, inhabited their ancestral homeland.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 14:57

And knave,

Would you kindly return Rommel, my pet badger.

He's had more than enough time to visit Anne Frank's house and the Heinekin brewery.

Though not necessarily in that order.

Pierre
12 July 2008 at 14:58

Are 5./6 million land/water theives worth a third world war?

knave
12 July 2008 at 17:13

Morgan

I was talking about Iraq but I love DNA arguments.

So we all need to invade Ethiopia.

Also some very surly welsh fellahs want part of Ipswich because of their Iceni DNA.

Morgan old fellow I live in Leiden not Amsterdam.

Much more conservative with a small c.

solo man
12 July 2008 at 17:18

Redharry is right.Can you imagine the frustration of having ones bloodlust restricted to the occasional honour killing and rival clan revenge murder and ,worst of all, being deprived of the seventy two luscious black eyed virgins that await successful shaheeds in paradise....p.s. i'm informed that females ,who blow themselves up ,get DWARFS !!!.(No number is stipulated).

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 19:26

Welcome aboard, solo man!

Now let's protest knave's dastardly confiscation of Rommel!

knave recoils from the very thought of INVASION.

Neocons generally (pardon the pun) do not.

Since the US military is the only serious force for good in this world (our smallest arm, the Marine Corps, is larger than all UK forces combined), I've long advocated the invasion of Zimbabwe in order to replace Mugabe with Morgan (what a great name!) Tsvangirai.

Or is it only OK when the former colonial boss (see UK intervention in Sierra Leone) takes unilateral action?

knave
12 July 2008 at 19:48

Morgan

Size is everything Morgan.

It is how you use it.

Why don't you invade Zimbabwe.

You say you won't because it was an ex UK colony. Didn't stop you invading Grenada.

Oh I know why you won't invade.

No oil.

US military a force for good. Is that what they call an oxymoron.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 19:52

"Pierre"?

As in Laval?

Didn't do much post-war celebrating, did you?

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 20:00

Ah, come on knave, my friend,

Confess!

Even you wouldn't prefer the finger of Saddam or Ahmadinejad on the spigot.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 20:08

And you didn't think we were all that terrible when the cavalry rode to the rescue in '17 and '42.

Morgan097
12 July 2008 at 21:08

And I expect some gratitude for having replied to Pierre with such civility.

When he rhetorically asked:

"Are 5./6 [sic] million land/water theives [sic] worth a third world war?"

I desperately wanted to answer :

"Were 50 million froggie collaborators worth a second?"

Pierre
12 July 2008 at 22:51

The second world war started in 1939.

knave
12 July 2008 at 23:04

And you didn't think we were all that terrible when the cavalry rode to the rescue in '17 and '42

Well Morgan you were 3 years late for both of those conflicts.

In the last one you were too busy selling arms to both sides.

Henry Ford and General motors just loved Adolf

A trivial pusuit question old timer.

Who had the largest Nazi party outside Germany

1. Austria

2. Holland

3. France

4. USA

Yes, that is right Morgan your good old boys in the US bund.

But you are right Morgan.

Late for two world wars , but looking at your foreign policy you want to be really early for the next one.

harp
13 July 2008 at 00:23

"Even you wouldn't prefer the finger of Saddam or Ahmadinejad on the spigot."

Why?

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 00:53

After two world wars, people today take for granted that the US and Britain were always bosom buddies.

In 1914 this was not so clear.

There were millions of Americans of German descent, and the large Irish-American population detested the English. Also at that stage, Italy was considered within the orbit of the Central Powers, and Italian-Americans saw little reason to intervene.

WWI only became our fight after German sabotage on US soil, the Lusitania sinking, unrestricted German submarine warfare, and finally the revelation of the Zimmerman Telegram (so thoughtfully provided to us by the British codebreakers of Room 40).

As for round II, the general American public consensus in '39 was that we'd been duped into fighting in a European conflict that was none of our concern. And now, Italy was part of the axis, so large numbers of German-, Irish-, and Italian-Americans vigorously opposed intervention.

And must I repeat the all-too-familiar list of British contributions to its own misfortune?

How late was His Majesty's Government when Germany re-occupied the Rhineland, marched into Austria and disgraced itself over the Czech Sudetenland at Munich?

Membership estimates for the German-American Bund vary between 3,000 and 25,000.

It's leader, Fritz Kuhn was a German-born naturalized American citizen, who was imprisoned for embezzlement of Bund funds.

American repugnance at the Bund's highly-publicized behavior helped turn American public opinion against the Nazis.

Ford was a notorious anti-Semite who published the hate-filled Dearborn Independent. Eventually he issued a public apology for his words and without Ford's vast River Rouge plant, the B-24 long-range heavy bomber could never have been produced in such huge numbers.

Needless to say, the GM war effort was a massive component in making us the "arsenal of democracy."

Personally, I'd rather drive a Bugatti Veyron.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 01:09

Harp, good buddy!

I thought the answer would be self-evident:

Neither could speak English, so they'd be unable to understand whether you wanted regular or premium.

knave
13 July 2008 at 07:57

As for round II, the general American public consensus in '39 was that we'd been duped into fighting in a European conflict that was none of our concern. And now, Italy was part of the axis, so large numbers of German-, Irish-, and Italian-Americans vigorously opposed intervention.

Plus you making lots of money out of the affair. Also their was a reluctance to help the "the jews" in the south

How late was His Majesty's Government when Germany re-occupied the Rhineland, marched into Austria and disgraced itself over the Czech Sudetenland at Munich?

I agree bloody Tories but can't remember the US get involved in those issues.

Membership estimates for the German-American Bund vary between 3,000 and 25,000.

Come off it morgan it numbered at least 300, 000 and was the largest outside Germany.

It's leader, Fritz Kuhn was a German-born naturalized American citizen, who was imprisoned for embezzlement of Bund funds.

So it's deputy took over

American repugnance at the Bund's highly-publicized behavior helped turn American public opinion against the Nazis.

Only after 1942, when Hitler declared war ON YOU, not the other way round. Probably his biggest mistake. The republicans certainly only wanted to fight Japan

Ford was a notorious anti-Semite who published the hate-filled Dearborn Independent. Eventually he issued a public apology for his words and without Ford's vast River Rouge plant, the B-24 long-range heavy bomber could never have been produced in such huge numbers.

Yes also his German firms bulit many of the mechanised armoured carriers that were essential for Blizgrieg.

Like I said before , sold weapons to both sides.

Needless to say, the GM war effort was a massive component in making us the "arsenal of democracy."

Also they bulit many vehicles and engines for the Reich and was essential for the Arsenal of fascism

Also interestingly components for the gas chambers.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 08:55

knave, old boy,

I honestly have no idea where you unearthed the figure of 300,000 American Bund members.

The standard sources on the subject are Susan Canedy's "America's Nazis; A Democratic Dilemma";

Markgraf, 1990, and Sander A. Diamond's "The Nazi Movement in the United States, 1924-1941"; Cornell University Press, 1974.

Both cite the 3,000 to 25,000 figure.

If you have some more reliable source for your 300,000 figure, I'd be more than willing to take it into account. I have no horse in this particular race.

I know very well that Hitler declared war first, though it was in '41 not '42. And it wasn't only the Republicans who wanted to deal first with Japan; the overwhelming majority of Americans were of the same mind. FDR, as commander-in-chief, unilaterally decided to make Hitler his priority.

The US ambassador to the Court of St. James was, of course, the Irish-American Democrat Joe Kennedy, who believed that Britain would fold momentarily.

And surely you're being disingenuous to suggest that the American directors of either Ford or GM controlled their European satellite companies after war was declared.

Even Rommel wouldn't swallow that one.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 09:10

The penultimate paragraph above should have concluded with:

"...after war was declared between the US and Germany."

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 10:34

And puh-leeze don't try to push the blame for Britain's pre-war fecklessness entirely upon the shoulders of the Tories; the best that spineless Labour could come up as a campaign slogan was the imbecilic "Against War and Facism."

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 10:40

Again, it's late and fatigue is setting in.

The last line should read:

"the best that spineless Labour could come up with for a campaign slogan was the imbecilic 'Against War and Fascism.'"

knave
13 July 2008 at 11:54

Morgan over 30,000 turned up for one bash. Common sense dictates that you can multiply that figure by 5 when taking into account families and that most people never travelled and went to local events only. And they were still the biggest Nazi party outside Germany . Also that is not mentioning the fact that many of their views were shared with the KKK, that had a membership in the high hundred thousands in the 20s and 30s.

http://www.longwood.k12.ny.us/history/yaphank/bund14.htm

And surely you're being disingenuous to suggest that the American directors of either For. So d or GM controlled their European satellite companies after war was declared.

I am afraid they did Morgan old bean.

Also many lefties fought the fascists in Spain. Also Labour Unions had their battles with the fascists in places like cable street.

It was also the Labour party insisted that chamberlein had to replaced with Churchill.

Also at least the Labour party had a slogan.

Instead of the US slogan "There is quick buck in arming the Nazis"

fairplay
13 July 2008 at 14:33

the US get into bed with us in wars because anytime they go it alone they get their arses well and truly kicked

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 15:45

Gentle Mr. Fairplay,

In both the American Revolutionary War and the War of 1812, I seem to recall that it was the Redcoats who "[got] their arses well and truly kicked."

taghioff.info
13 July 2008 at 16:00

These discussions seem to turn again and again to how Martin is a Neo-Con (which I am not really sure about personally). I am very curious about this turn, because I am curious about the turn in British left-wing politics, where the "Euston Convention" was signed, by people on the left determined to protect democracy, and uphold human rights.

I am fairly sure this is where Martin and Nick Cohen are coming from, but I am not clear how this grouping (along with the recently water-boarded public intellectual) ended up opposed to those who consider American power to be a less than democratic force in the world.

Surely there is a debate needed between the Livingstones, Monbiots, Kleins and Alis of this world (who are the internationalists who question American democratic legitimacy) and the Euston convention people, since surely there is a strong common ground here as to what the nature of democracy is in a globalised world?

Would the New Statesman have the intellectual and political courage to back such an event?

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 16:14

knave, old boy,

Just turning up at a freakshow like the Bund's Madison Square Garden event hardly constitutes either membership in or support for that organization.

I was one of many curious attendees at the late segregationist Gov. George Wallace's 1967 appearance at the Sheraton Boston Hotel, when he was campaigning for the Democratic presidential nomination. I had no intention of voting for any candidate other than Bobby Kennedy, and would have enthusiastically done so had he not been subsequently assassinated at the Ambassador Hotel in Los Angeles by a Palestinian Arab named Sirhan Sirhan.

If you have hard evidence of American industrial executives collaborating with Germans in wartime, please present it.

As for Spain, you know as well as I that hardcore Stalinists usurped control of the Republican side and murdered as many moderate socialists as they did fascists.

Cable Street was fought by mainly Jewish Londoners of all political persuasions opposed to Mosley's BUF thugs.

After the Norway fiasco, Chamberlain certainly had to go (although Churchill, as First Sea Lord, bore most of the responsibility), but according to Lukacs in "3 Days In London, May 1940," it was Chamberlain himself whose support lifted Churchill over Halifax in the contest for succession.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 16:30

Mr. Taghioff,

You have just stumbled unwittingly into a Bedlam stage production of "Animal Farm," in which everyone except Martin covets the role of Napoleon.

harp
13 July 2008 at 16:48

"Morgan over 30,000 turned up for one bash. Common sense dictates that you can multiply that figure by 5 when taking into account families and that most people never travelled and went to local events only. And they were still the biggest Nazi party outside Germany ."

Ok but common sense doesn't justify such a number five-fold. There was plenty of support for the Nazi's. Not just by the public but by elites as well. There was a good article in the Guardian, and plenty of evidence that Bush's Grandfather's, and Great Grandfather's Firm provided supplies to the German's in the late 30's. There's plenty evidence, that IBM provided punch card computers to Nazi Death camps. The machines listed and "tagged" all its Jewish vistor's. This noble war shtick is exactly shtick.

harp
13 July 2008 at 16:52

And where is this Nick Cohen...

harp
13 July 2008 at 16:57

Oh sorry I meant ten-fold...

Pierre
13 July 2008 at 19:26

Another misstatement, "war with Iraq" it's an occupation,

knave
13 July 2008 at 19:27

Just turning up at a freakshow like the Bund's Madison Square Garden event hardly constitutes either membership in or support for that organization.

So you would go to an event that is politically advertised as Nazi Bund event because you want a day out. Classic.

Also the bund was the largest Nazi party outside Germany

If you have hard evidence of American industrial executives collaborating with Germans in wartime, please present it.

Nevertheless, while General Motors has claimed its German (Opel) operations were outside its control during World War II, this assertion appears to be contradicted by available evidence. General Motors was not just a car company that happened to have factories in Germany; GM management from the top down had extensive connections with the NSDAP, both on a business and personal level.

American GM Vice President (later Colonel) Graeme K. Howard was a committed Nazi, and expressed such views in his book, America and a New World Order. Adolf Hitler awarded GM boss James D. Mooney the Order of Merit of the Golden Eagle for his services to Nazi Germany. General Motors’ internal documents show a clear strategy to profit from their German military contracts even after Germany declared war against America.

Defending the German investment strategy as “highly profitable”, Alfred P. Sloan told shareholders in 1939 GM’s continued industrial production for the Nazi government was merely sound business practice. In a letter to a concerned shareholder, Sloan said that the manner in which the Nazi government ran Germany "should not be considered the business of the management of General Motors...We must conduct ourselves as a German organization. . . We have no right to shut down the plant."]

After 20 years of researching General Motors, Bradford Snell stated, "General Motors was far more important to the Nazi war machine than Switzerland ... Switzerland was just a repository of looted funds. GM-Opel was an integral part of the German war effort. The Nazis could have invaded Poland and Russia without Switzerland. They could not have done so without GM.”

As for Spain, you know as well as I that hardcore Stalinists usurped control of the Republican side and murdered as many moderate socialists as they did fascists.

True but at least we were there.

Moderate socialists have always despised fascists like your self and the the commies. Same coin but different sides

Cable Street was fought by mainly Jewish Londoners of all political persuasions opposed to Mosley's BUF thugs.

And trades unionist. Many of those jews were also wing activists

After the Norway fiasco, Chamberlain certainly had to go (although Churchill, as First Sea Lord, bore most of the responsibility), but according to Lukacs in "3 Days In London, May 1940," it was Chamberlain himself whose support lifted Churchill over Halifax in the contest for succession.

Do you honestly think in a coalition government that the Labour wouldn't have wanted or get rid of him if they weren't happy in the role.

Good idea about animal farm. You are perfect as the role of the farmer

knave
13 July 2008 at 19:45

Tag , the site has missed you , again your analysis is well thought out, although I don't agree with all your conclusions.

Your idea about The NS and debate is first class.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 21:07

knave, old boy,

As you well know, I'm no fascist, and if you cruelly persist in attempting to hurt my feelings, I'll bang my little fists into my little pillow until they turn pink!

So there!

Much as I enjoy correcting your simplistic caracatures and gross distortions, I also dislike having to repeat myself. Nevertheless, allow me to refer back to my 8:55 post, the last five words of which you so conveniently omitted:

"And surely you're being disingenuous to suggest that the American directors of either Ford or GM controlled their European satellite companies after war was declared BETWEEN THE US AND GERMANY[emphasis added]."

If you can produce evidence to prove that American industrial executives collaborated with National Socialist officials AFTER THE DECLARATION OF WAR BETWEEN THE US AND GERMANY, WHEN IT BECAME TREASONOUS TO DO SO, kindly provide that evidence.

And for a refreshing change, why not provide CITATIONS, instead of bluster.

And Labour were always a collection of snivelling cretins and ineffectual good-for-nothings until Churchill (in the only job he was any good at) snapped them into line.

Even today, absent the Blaire (Tony, not Eric) transfiguration of it into New Labour, the party would still be in the permanent political wilderness.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 21:09

"Blaire"?

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 21:34

harp, good buddy,

You're exactly correct about the illogic of confusing attendance with membership at freak shows like the Bund's Madison Square Garden rally.

Brown, Harriman, the elder Bush's investment firm, indeed represented the Nazis' financial interests in pre-war America.

And primitive but effective IBM computer card machines were disgustingly utilized by the Nazi government to locate and file the names of virtually every Jew in Germany and later, throughout much of occupied Europe.

But again, I know of no proof that this business relationship outlasted Pearl Harbor.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 21:37

Pierre Laval,

Dumkopf!

knave
13 July 2008 at 21:40

Morgan old bean

In my original post i said that you were arming the Nazis before you entered the war.

I would have thought that would be shameful enough.

But Opel and the ford's german / vichy french factories were producing military vehicles throughout the war.

http://library.digiguide.com/lib/uk-tv-highlight/Hitler's+American+Business+Partners-2802

Here is link to a very good DVD on the subject. Rent it and be surprised.

Also I do apologize for calling you a fascist but we were having a debate and you went into insult mode with the crack about animal farm . So my working class retaliation gene clicked in.

And for a refreshing change, why not provide CITATIONS, instead of bluster.

You are not going to go all psycho on me again Morgan. I thought we had got over that immaturity

And Labour were always a collection of snivelling cretins and ineffectual good-for-nothings until Churchill (in the only job he was any good at) snapped them into line.

Well he was half american, so what can you expect.

You are right he was s**T chancellor, journalist, first sea lord and as for his treatment of the Welsh miners.

Snivelling cretins. Even Ernest Bevin the founder of NATO.

I must admit Lansbury was a snivelling cretin

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 21:58

knave, old boy,

Thanks for the reassurance that I'm not a fascist, and therefore unlikely to invade Poland or Abyssinia.

Not so sure about Zimbabwe (or Londonistan, but Boris should soon attend to that).

And since I'm unable to employ italics on this site, I'm left with no alternative but capitalization (pardon the pun) to indicate emphasis.

Also, I never mentioned you personally in my Animal Farm reference, so I think that you're a mean, mean man!

So there!

knave
13 July 2008 at 22:00

Morgan.

Also in th 1812 war

Most historians have come to the conclusion that no body won that war.

Yes you won the battle of new orleans and we burnt down the original white house but the US never ever threatened Canada again which was our war aim. You stopped British press ganging of american citizens. One of the few wars that both sides achieved their aims.

knave
13 July 2008 at 22:08

And since I'm unable to employ italics on this site, I'm left with no alternative but capitalization (pardon the pun) to indicate emphasis.

I know but when ever somebody employ capital letters on a post, I also feel they are cyber shouting and as a softie pinko, it can be upsetting.

Not so sure about Zimbabwe (or Londonistan, but Boris should soon attend to that).

You can invade mugabe world and replace him with soft pinko trades union leader Morgan T but I doubt you will, as I said before no oil.

As for Londonistan it was Thatcherites like Boris, not him of couse, who invited them here in the 80's. Well it was according to mel phillips. So he should sort out the mess his lot created.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 22:18

knave,

The Continental army cost Britain its first empire.

And to assert that defending the territorial integrity of the four provinces that would later form the foundation for modern Canada is tantamount to saying that in October '62 the Soviets only placed ICBMs in Cuba in order to achieve the removal of obsolete NATO missiles in Turkey.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 22:22

knave,

You know how to hurt a guy.

The very mention of the Great Mel turns my heart to mush.

Morgan097
13 July 2008 at 22:30

Sorry, knave.

To my 22:18 post, please insert:

"was the only British objective" after the words "...modern Canada".

Pierre
14 July 2008 at 01:42

Given the consequences of a third world war, the removal/relocation of the 5/6 million Palestinian squatters needs to be undertaken immediately.

Morgan097
14 July 2008 at 05:23

knave, old boy,

Get out your German-English dictionary, then tell me truthfully, how's that for an example of my trademark threat-insult double whammy?

Morgan097
14 July 2008 at 05:29

A copy of Gravity's Rainbow might also come in handy.

Morgan097
14 July 2008 at 07:38

Hi, Mr. Pierre,

I can see that you've obviously been doin' some deep thinkin' about some (shall we say, "final") solution to the mideast Jooish "problem."

Ya wouldn't by any chance know of a place where ya could scrape up lotsa cattle cars, tons of Zyklon B, bunches of shower taps and some real big, industrial size ovens?

Hussein
14 July 2008 at 14:44

Martin, your hypocrisy stinks. You are go on a trip to Israel paid for by an arms dealer and then you take the high moral ground! Your attempts to socially engineer Britain's Muslim community are colonialistic in the extreme. You're like the white man colonising the natives and telling them what's best. I've only got one question for you - where are the Sufi Muslim Council now? Let's all boycott the right-wing, extremist hate peddler that is Martin Bright.

Martin Bright
14 July 2008 at 15:13

Hussein -- My real mistake was accepting the invitation to IslamExpo in the first place.

Morgan097
14 July 2008 at 18:05

Hussein:

Do you think it wise for a member of an often despised minority to express his disaffection for his host country quite so vociferously?

Janosch
14 July 2008 at 19:39

"Do you think it wise for a member of an often despised minority to express his disaffection for his host country quite so vociferously?"

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Host country? Despised minority? By whom? If you mean British born Muslims are a despised minority with less of a right than non-Muslims to call Britain their home and to express their opinions than other citizens, then I'm happy to say you are wrong. There is a small, vociferous band of anti-Muslim agitators in the press and blogosphere spearheaded by Nick Cohen and Harry's Place among others, and supported by a coterie of other dreary middle-aged men who've decided that their mid-life crises are of political significance, but most non-Muslim Britons are sensible enough not to despise their Muslim neighbours and ignore the inflammatory nonsense posted by this brigade.

Why shouldn't Hussein express his opinion?

knave
14 July 2008 at 20:19

Janosch

I couldn't agree more but I feel Martin's attack dogs will soon bite.

Where is Voltaire when you need him.

Morgan097
14 July 2008 at 23:21

knave,

No need to pine for Voltaire!

Morgie is here to state with reasonable certainty that in retrospect, the old boy would have judged pre-dhimmitude Britain "the best of all possible worlds."

That world, of course, has sadly gone the way of the dodo.

It's long been known that "the Muslim world has bloody edges."

And now, the time has arrived for the once green and pleasant land to pay the price.

But "Hush!"

"Be still."

For if one disagrees, the followers of "The Religion of Peace" (TM), will surely cut off your head.

You've fled one subjugated town, my friend.

How long before Leiden too, becomes unsafe?

Now, hand back the badger!

taghioff.info
15 July 2008 at 10:22

@Knave

Thanks, I am still around and about, though I feel like I haven't had much original to say lately: Still pushing the same old point about democracy and internationalism.

Sadly I find it hard to get through on this point, I think that having a beer with people is probably still the best way to communicate, even in this day and age.

knave
15 July 2008 at 17:16

You are right, Tag

If world leaders could have a couple of pints of the black stuff together then probably the world be a better place.

Still pushing the same old point about democracy and internationalism

Keep doing it mate.

gnuneo
15 July 2008 at 18:56

morgan: you are, i apologise for saying, a fool.

first of all, britain is not in a 'pre-dhimmitude' state, actually what will happen is that our more advanced (in many ways) culture will actually evolve the form of Islam that is within our borders - our devotion to secular values, our belief in free speech, thought and discussion, our rights for the individual, the belief in gender, and sexual equality, the belief that a Good Govt is one that is "of the People, by the People, for the People", the belief that the military option should be the ABSOLUTE last, the belief that ALL of us have a 'divine spark' that has Natural Rights - from the poorest baby in Africa, to the wealthiest vampire in the Cayman Isles, to the male inhabitants of Fallujah, - we all have the basic right to be treated as a person, to have freedom, equality of opportunity, and to have our voices listened to in public debate.

these are values that have *not* been much in evidence since the 'wars on terror' started, yet these are the values by which we in britain will 'win' these wars, and also influence Islamic thought.

you see morgan, i *beleive* in my culture, i know it can succeed through simple example, and discussion, it does not need warfare to propagate itself.

my culture is not perfect, and we certainly need to start living up to our ideals again, but those ideals are some of the best ever created. I do not fear open dialogue with any other ideology.

taghioff.info
15 July 2008 at 19:21

@Gnuneo

I support your point.

Just compare the "successes" of the War on Terror, attempting to bring democracy to the Middle East (Iraq and Afghanistan now well on the way to multi-party democracy and a happily liberalised economy with high growth rates...), with the "failures" of the European Union, as the prospect of accession has a seismic effect on Turkey and its stance to democracy, Human Rights and Islam, at some tiny fraction of the cost.

Now where did the moderate Islamic intellectual who won the Prospect and Foreign Policy poll on the world's top public intellectual come from? Pretty sure it was not from a land being subjected to the American "Dream".

Morgan097
15 July 2008 at 20:40

"Alas, poor knave, I knew him, Horatio."

Forgive me, old fellow.

I thought you merely politically misguided.

I hadn't realized that you'd actually lost your marbles.

Britain is no longer in a pre-dhimmitude state; it is already lost, your exile to Leiden being no coincidence.

When the ecclesiastic, legal, academic and journalistic pillars of a free society have all surrendered to the threats of a foreign, anti-democratic militant ideology, that free society is doomed.

The Judeo-Christian civilization that produced Shakespeare, Goethe, Bach, da Vinci, Nelson, Einstein, Freud and Lincoln now goes quietly into that good night.

Thanks to the leftist lotus eaters like yourself who created the economically unsustainable welfare state, you created a suicidal pyramid or Ponzi scheme in which the only way to maintain the free ride was to import the "cheap" Islamic labor that so envies your wealth and loathes your values.

European Christians simply no longer reproduce in sufficient numbers to replace themselves, while it is not uncommon for a single Muslim family to produce 10 to 12 offspring. You prefer to ignore the glaring fact that the name "Muhammed" and its variants is now the most popular name for newborns.

Put down the legalized Dutch pot for a moment and look around you. Put aside the sanctimonious political correctness, if only to save your own life. Even if only a small fraction of European Muslims support or condone violent jihad, this constitutes an existential threat of hundreds of thousands that will eventually demographically overwhelm you.

The moderate German right thought that they could control National Socialism just as present day British leftists believe that the Muslims in their midst will all come around and be good chaps.

What better evidence do you require than that your well-meaning friend states,

"I think that having a beer with people is probably still the best way to communicate, even in this day and age."

Devout Muslims don't drink beer.

Morgan097
15 July 2008 at 21:01

knave,

Please permit me to apologize profusely.

I mistook gnuneo's post for your own.

Apart from the regrettable personal references to you, my words therefore address those of gnuneo.

Morgan097
15 July 2008 at 22:11

gnuneo:

Had I noticed that that simple-minded and insulting post was yours, I wouldn't even have bothered to respond.

Morgan097
15 July 2008 at 23:27

tag,

Perhaps you and this Muslim intellectual worthy would honor us by your jointly delivering at his local mosque a public, illustrated lecture on some light-hearted, playfully-satirical, Danish Muhammed cartoons.

fairplay
16 July 2008 at 08:49

but morgan dear boy, who is predominantly in charge of the think tanks and media that alienate the so called indigenous population and make them feel like second class citizens in their own home by being made to feel like thinking good of everyone is the right thing to do? ie daring not to speak up about it for fear of being branded a bigot?

who? who? who?

i dare you to answer morgsn dear boy

Morgan097
16 July 2008 at 09:14

tag:

"Now where did the moderate Islamic intellectual who won the Prospect and Foreign Policy poll on the world's top public intellectual come from? Pretty sure it was not from a land being subjected to the American 'Dream.'"

Oh, really?

Apparently the millions of worldwide followers (known as Fethullahci) of the Turkish Sufi cleric you describe, one Fethullah Gulen, hijacked the poll [see Tom Nuttall poll analysis, Prospect, July 2008].

Not so coincidentally, the next nine "winners" among the "Top Ten" also happened to be Muslims.

Reminiscent of the way in which the Muslims hijacked and consequently ruined the credibility of the UN.

But to answer your now meaningless question, Gulen "won" the "poll" while living in Turkey, unlike the UK, a strictly constitutionally-secularized country and a longstanding member of NATO, the western defense alliance totally dependent for its utility upon the nuclear umbrella of the Great Satan.

Morgan097
16 July 2008 at 09:25

fairplay:

What the hell are you talking about?

I'm aware that my words have been known to affect doctrinaire leftists in strange ways, but I honestly can't understand you.

Is English your first language?

Morgan097
16 July 2008 at 09:38

fairplay:

Sorry. You took too long to answer.

Gotta go.

taghioff.info
16 July 2008 at 09:47

tag:

"Now where did the moderate Islamic intellectual who won the Prospect and Foreign Policy poll on the world's top public intellectual come from? Pretty sure it was not from a land being subjected to the American 'Dream.'"

Oh, really?"

Yes really, Turkey is joining the EU, you may have missed that. Which relates to Ghuneo's point about our values being worthwhile and effective, and not best spread my military means.

"Apparently the millions of worldwide followers (known as Fethullahci) of the Turkish Sufi cleric you describe, one Fethullah Gulen, hijacked the poll [see Tom Nuttall poll analysis, Prospect, July 2008]."

Not so coincidentally, the next nine "winners" among the "Top Ten" also happened to be Muslims."

So the Muslims do collective action and democracy, good for them.

"Reminiscent of the way in which the Muslims hijacked and consequently ruined the credibility of the UN."

There is not one Muslim country on the Security Council who make all the big decisions. The UN is a lot more credible than the US right now, which is effectively a rogue state under international law, since it is engaged in a war of aggressing deemed illegal by the UN (which is its role.)

" But to answer your now meaningless question, Gulen "won" the "poll" while living in Turkey, unlike the UK, a strictly constitutionally-secularized country and a longstanding member of NATO, the western defense alliance totally dependent for its utility upon the nuclear umbrella of the Great Satan."

I did not ask a question, I made a point. The question was rhetorical, and was comparing Turkey to Iraq and Afghanistan, sorry for not spelling it out for you.

Turkey may be in NATO now, but it sees its future within the EU, presumably because of the ongoing failures of the US's militiarised approach, and the ongoing benefits of the EU, which is now the world's biggest market, and pretty much a zone of peace.

My support for gnuneo's point stands.

knave
16 July 2008 at 17:37

Morgan

I don't mind you insult the likes of myself.

Tag never insults people personally. Try to debate without insulting.

Martin needs to house train you.

Morgan097
16 July 2008 at 21:23

knave, old boy,

You're probably right. Perhaps my reaction was a tad excessive.

Sorry, tag.

Morgan097
16 July 2008 at 21:33

knave,

You needn't have worried.

Along with the derogatory words I directed at tag, Bennie the Dip also deleted my point-by-point rebuttal of your pal's embarrassingly disingenuous CYA fallback position.

Morgan097
16 July 2008 at 21:42

But I can't resist repeating my vaporized prediction that France will aquiesce to Turkey's full membership in the EU when deGaulle rises from his grave to re-colonize Algeria.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 11:23

gnuneo:

You remain an insolent simpleton.

Speak when you're spoken to.

Now, sit down and behave!

Hussein
18 July 2008 at 12:10

You know Martin, it really sticks in my gut that charlatans like you have influence over government policy on one of the most important issues of the day. You are profoundly wrong on the causes of radicalisation and the solutions to it. You're being listened to because the government wants to hear your flawed message. My only consolation is that history will prove you a vacuous nomark. But by then the damage will have been done and the opportunity missed.

Martin Bright
18 July 2008 at 12:33

Hussein -- we'll see. History is a notoriously ttricky beast to predict.

gnuneo
18 July 2008 at 16:36

morgan, these comment pages are for *comments* - i realise you probably have ignorance and mental health issues to deal with, but perhaps you could keep that in mind, and cut out the useless ad hominems?

nobody is impressed by them, i rather doubt there are many kindergarten level readers here.

Morgan097
18 July 2008 at 18:52

gnumbnuts:

You remain an insolent simpleton.

Speak when you're spoken to.

Now, sit down and behave!

knave
19 July 2008 at 18:20

I think old Brighty would love to see a whole thread full of Morganites.

Fits in with his view of the world.

You don't agree with them your a card carrying Islamist.

Ozymander
21 July 2008 at 15:00

Martin, you are such a drama queen - sadly one in the pay of israeli arms dealers who give free holidays to israel.

What hurts me most of all is that you didn't even send me a postcard.