Laurie Penny

Pop culture and radical politics with a feminist twist

Violence against women in Tahrir Square

Speak it aloud, let it ooze over your tongue: how bitter does it taste?

By Laurie Penny Published 08 March 2011 19:22

Right now, thousands of Egyptian women who gathered to commemorate the centenary of International Women's Day in the newly liberated Tahrir Square are being assaulted, harassed and brutalised. Not by Mubarak's thugs, but by the men who lately stood beside them as equals on the barricades. As I write, images and reports are coming through on Twitter from women fleeing male aggression in the symbolic heart of what is already being called the Arab Spring. Speak it aloud, let it ooze over your tongue: how bitter does it taste?

"During the revolution, women weren't women -- they were simply Egyptians," writes Egyptian journalist Ethar El-Katatney. "They stood right next to men to liberate their country... women will not -- and cannot -- go back to being silent." It appears, however, that many Egyptian men would prefer their women to do just that -- to shuffle back to their kitchens and stop demanding silly things like social equality and political representation in the new secular constitution of the country they have just reclaimed.

Solidarity has been the watchword of this global resistance movement, but some men seem slow to understand what that word really means. One cannot reserve solidarity for members of one's own gender. The vomitous hypocrisy of turning patriarchal violence against one's comrades in the same space where you fought state violence together just weeks previously should be obvious even to the mobs of men and boys currently chasing women through the streets of Cairo.

The impulse to exclude women from the cultural revolution taking place across the Arab world is clearly a powerful one indeed. The entirety of Egypt fought for democracy, but now its men have turned round and said: not so fast. This revolution was just for the boys.

The liberation of the world from tyranny and destitution cannot precede the gender revolution. On the contrary, the emancipation of women across the globe from the double threat of state violence and male violence ought to be the force that carries the revolution forward, trailing freedom in its wake. The presence of women, and particularly of young women, at the forefront of resistance movements across the world, has been expansively noted -- but how will the world cope when these women demand their rightful place in the bedrooms and boardrooms and circles of power, equal to men on every footing?

How will the world react when the women who liberated their countries demand the right to control their own bodies and their own lives? Today, in Tahrir Square, we're getting a first taste of that reaction, as a joyful celebration of a century of progress for women across the world descends into violence and chaos. And yes, it tastes bitter; even from across the world, from a position of monumental privilege, it burns in the mouth like bitten-back rage.

Human beings liberate themselves by throwing audacity in the face of power. The revolutions in Egypt, Tunisia, Bahrain and Libya have taken the world by surprise, precisely because they demanded the impossible -- the toppling of corrupt and despotic regimes that had clung to power for generations with the backing of western governments -- but some demands are clearly a bridge too far when spoken in women's voices. We can fight the state together, but as soon as we turn around to fight discrimination and domestic violence, the passionate solidarity of men dries up like semen down a trouser leg.

If women had not sacrificed, demonstrated, struck, fought and demanded the impossible for over 100 years, we would still be treated as second-class citizens, denied voting rights and access to health care, considered the property of our male relatives and forcibly married to husbands who could beat, rape and brutalise us as they pleased.

Women and girls still face violence, marginalisation, harassment, political and social exclusion, discrimination and abuse across the world, in their millions, every day, merely because they are female. The first international working women's day, a century ago, recognised that the liberation of women and the liberation of the working class in the Bolshevik revolution and were two halves of the same equation. In Soviet Russia, that lesson was quickly forgotten. A hundred years later, the revolutionaries of Egypt are forgetting it all over again. We cannot let them forget; we must not let anyone forget.

All day I've been justifying why women still need an International Women's Day. I'm sick of having to justify why, while over half the human race still has to swallow daily discrimination and abuse merely on the grounds of gender, we haven't yet sat down and said thank you, sir. Women and workers are not free enough yet to be grateful for how far we have come. We must continue to make demands, impossible audacious demands, and we must never apologise, not even when men try to shout us down, or beat us down, or cut us down.

A century after the first International Working Women's day, we must continue to demand the impossible on behalf of future generations, just as our mothers and grandmothers demanded it for us. History requires no less.

More from Laurie Penny

86 comments

Wed, 2011-03-09 02:59 — barry (not verified)

spoken like a true leftard"regimes who clung to power with the backing of western governments"-Libya's gaddafi always was a soviet client and has committed more killings during these recent uprisings than all the other middle eastern regimes combined (although iran may not end up far behind,as there is no western moderating effect upon the islamofascist mullahs).
the only movement comparable to state socialism(sinosoviet) in terms of totalitarian enslavement and political killings is islam.

Wed, 2011-03-09 03:43 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

@Buckskins: Why are trying to say that the Muslim faith is responsible for the assault of these women? In fact women are treated with a great deal of respect in Muslim countries. Assaults of this nature occur frequently in non-Muslim countries including the USA. The Koran advocates respect for women.

Wed, 2011-03-09 03:49 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

@Julie Harris:

Question: Has Julie Harris been writing rubbish on this thread?

Answer: Yes absolutely.

Julie, have you ever been to Indonesia, a very large Muslim country? Here women are treated with great respect and go around on their own without any head dressings. The interpretation of Islam is different in different countries, and what actually happens has probably more to do with culture than religion.

I hope you are not repeating some of the things you have written because intelligent people will think you are stupid.

Why don't you educate yourself before you make any more inaccurate generalisations? Try wikipedia first.

Wed, 2011-03-09 23:18 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Buckskins and Helen: I am not questioning how SOME Islamic countries treat women. What I am questioning is whether religion is the cause of this behaviour. If you look at Indonesia, the largest Muslim country in the world, women do work outside home, do drive cars, can leave home without male permission etc. So it appears to me that behaviour is not the result of religion but is culturally based.

If it was just religion that was causing people to behave in such a manner then the same behaviour would be happening in all Islamic countries. Yet if you look at countries like Indonesia, Malaysia, Turkey, and Liberia where women are treated to those in Saudi Arabia or North Africa then you have to question if it is purely the result of religion. There are cultural norms that appear to be influencing behaviour to a much greater extent.

Why are both of you saying it is the result of the Muslim faith when clearly that same faith is not producing identical behaviour in all Islamic countries?

Thu, 2011-03-10 22:39 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Buckskins and Helen: You're still mixing up religion and culture. There are different interpretations of the Koran like there are with the Bible. Before Islam women's rights in the Middle East was far worse, and the Koran was revolutionary in the sense that it elevated women rights. In other words the culture was more reactionary than the religion.

Fri, 2011-07-22 07:45 — Galilea

In the Muslim/arab world women are not considered equal. The religion does not permit this. One only needs to look at all the evidence. In some muslim states, women are not even allowed help in childbirth or any medical help, or education. In places such as Saudi Arabia, women can only receive a limited education as they are not allowed the same rights as men. http://www.dentaljournal.org/

Wed, 2011-03-09 04:33 — Catherine (not verified)

To think that because there was a political revolution that there will simultaneously be a cultural revolution in which a major change in gender roles will be readily accepted doesn't make sense. I'm guessing it is culturally acceptable to mistreat women in public otherwise I wouldn't think that men and boys would, in large numbers, attack women in a public space in daylight without fear of being shamed or punished by society. As others have stated, not all Muslims believe that violence towards women is acceptable. I think this is a cultural issue more than one of religion (one can argue that they are one in the same in some parts of the world but I'm not sure if that's true in Egypt - I simply don't know enough about the country).

What I think is far more realistic in terms of a cultural revolution in Egypt is a change in media - freedom of the press - it will be interesting to see how cultural norms and religion shape the extent of that freedom.

Thu, 2011-03-10 23:32 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Buckskins: If the male suicide bombers get 72 virgins, what do the female bombers get? 72 woodies?

Being the First Seal in the Book of Revelations you probably think I would have the answer for you. All I can say is what has been revealed to me, and the afterlife isn't something that I am party to.

Currently I am more concerned with the infestation of millions of millipedes that are marching through my mansion at an alarming rate. I sweep them up and feed them to the chooks

Its funny how religion and/or 'cults' get tangled up with sex. In particular the notion that men can have many partners. I look out of my window and see my many ewes and my one ram, and realise that it has something to do with maximum propagation. Very basic really.

Thu, 2011-03-10 00:54 — Ivan Miletitch

How interesting...it seems to me that in order of importance, Islam places women well below men (I am not a feminist by any stretch of the imagination, but denying this is either ill informed or dishonest). And by Islam, I don't just mean the religion, but the values (in the same way that 'we' - by this I mean us in the 'west' are generally living in seculasr societies, but with judeo christian values). So, even the efforts of (now no longer) secular Turkey did not achieve a great deal of change because of islamic values.
The basic Sky package will include many islamic chanels & watching these is extremely informative, it exposes the gulf that really exists between what somewould like ~Islam to appear as, and what islamic clerics constantly preach on television.

Thu, 2011-03-10 02:09 — Traitorfish (not verified)

@Ivan Miletitch: Much the same could be said of the Christian channels, and, where they exist, Jewish and Sikh channels. The proclamations of religious institutions reflect the traditionalistic social structures which the vast majority are rooted in- something which goes rather deeper than formal religious conviction- and not any essential nature of the religions themselves.

Wed, 2011-03-09 08:48 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Oh Julie Julie Julie Harris. How many more inaccurate statements are you going to make before you realise they area waste of time? Oh Julia!

Thu, 2011-03-10 04:30 — Disreali (not verified)

@Jerry, @C Baker @Julia Harris etc you are dangerously conflating a cultural and a religous issue.

"the women in the Middles east are thought of as worthless due to the Koran and its teachings of Islam"

False. I would call that 'evil' propaganda but that would be repeating the mistake of coining a scary adjective epithet to denigrate something I have a prejudice about, in Julia's case 'Islam', in my case 'her'.
Islamic teachings are the Prophet Muhammad's (pbuh) revelation. The jist of it concerning women is that the Koran wants women to dress modestly. How much choice a women has in the matter depends on mariad social factors. The paradigm between misogony & respect is paramount in determining those social factors.
Blacket condemnations of "Islam" is like saying "all Christians hate gays"...there are always contradictions in religion, but basically Islam like Christianity is about seeking justice and making a kinder world. Sort of what Laurie Penny is trying to do in her blog. Its cultural conservatism that fights feminine agency with its fists. Its cultural conservatism that spreads lies about Islam.

Wed, 2011-03-09 09:46 — gerry (not verified)

Laurie - you know the answer to the questions you pose!

Islam is the most deeply patriarchal world religion going, and male supremacy/patriarchy is embedded across all Arab and Muslim cultures -there is literally no way that women in Egypt will ever get recognisable legal equality, as, say, women did in the new South African constitution in 1998.

The only Muslim majority country where there is legal equality is Turkey, where Ataturk ruthlessly secularised the state and constitution, discourage veiling and headscarves, and gave women the vote as far back as 1934!

Yet even there the present Islamic-based AK party in government is trying all it can to Islamise the state by the back door, and pressuring women to be covered up, submissive, etc...

Despotism in the Middle East is clearly a product of male supremacy and patriarchy, plus Islam...and sadly a few liberal women in Tahrir Square will never change a thing until Islam is totally separated from state, civil society and law.

Sun, 2011-03-13 08:42 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

So you two are both quite happy with people being Muslim so long as they don't follow the ways and guidances of the Koran. An edited Koran would indeed seem a good idea and I would like to keep some of the Islamic practices like Ramet thing with e fasting. That's fun to look at. I'm quite into the mecca pillly : got to do that one day.

I also favour an edited Torah and Bible. And I'll bring Buddhism into the mix as well as Hinduism. We'll edit the whole lot and call it, 'The Third Kingdom'.

The ultimate message of the all the religions is peace. Even Islam has peace as the ultimate designation. The top clerics know that peace is the final message of Mohammed. Even the Taliban know this.

Why can't we all be Muslims? I have been a Muslim for about a day so that makes me partly a Muslim. I also believed I was a Mormon and a Hindu for little parts of my life: consequently I can speak for the Hindus and Mormons.

I told you before I am the first seal. Who else is talking to you on this matter? All the lefties have pissed off to the loo hissing 'troll' at you, shitting out all their out of date terminology. Juveniles I call them. Absolute juveniles with a capital T and a long piece of trooller roll.

Been wood chopping today out in some bush: chain sawing with my Muslim friend and loading it in to his pick up and trailer. At his place there is a big limber saw that cuts it into smaller pieces; it's frightening. It's a big blade over 2 foot in diameter and its old machine and set up. You kind of think at any time that a part of it is going to fly off server your wooden willy, depraving you of any chance of taking Michael Moore from behind.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/tbr/tbr026.htm

Thu, 2011-03-10 05:52 — Mr Woogy (not verified)

Like Borat says it is difficult to think Laurie Penny, a woman wrote such delicate prose as this. Laurie writes like a late J. Austen describing the passion of Heathcliffe for Jane Eyre!
PS laurie, babe did yo not notice the women doing the cleaning in Tesco square were in Sharia, the men were to busy drinking Mitn tea and imbibing sherbert to help out.

Wed, 2011-03-09 09:59 — John P Reid (not verified)

Women are badly treated teh World over that's wrongs, THe answer Let's have women's sday In Briain where middleclass feminsts who hav'ent done a days work in hteir life cna dress up and make gestures outside Emily Pankhurst's statue, That's gonna change a lot,

Thu, 2011-03-10 05:56 — Mr Woogy (not verified)

@Disreali
10 March 2011 at 03:30
You are so broadminded and sensitive, how would you have suruvived in Nazi Germany. One teeny weeny point, as a genral rule like gravity most muslims do not hate gays, they just want to hang them from western technology like cranes!

Wed, 2011-03-09 10:47 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

John P Reid,

What a sad person you are, when the big bad snows were on the ground here, those "middleclass feminists" were digging their cars out of the snow and driving to work every day, whereas we never saw a Binman on the same streets for a month. That's gotta change a lot!

Wed, 2011-03-09 11:12 — Julia Harris (not verified)

Question: Is Mr Divine deluding himself with his lefty spin on Islamic tolerance and treatment and women?
Answer: Yes absolutely.
We are not saying all Muslims act in such a way but....Mr Divine, no I haven’t been to Indonesia but I do know that the Islamist and Jihadi threat to Infidels and Minorities is there and on the increase - as is the case in any country where Islam in found.
Islam is Islam... true Islam calls for the subjugation of Women, Infidels and Minorities and for Islamic domination in all countries.
I am not interested if you think I am intelligent or not, it doesn’t bother me one iota. Why don’t you wise up and get onto the right side of the discussion and stop defending the most oppressive religion the world has ever known? Maybe then we won’t think your a delusional fool who is too scared to speak up for fear of offending those who would see us all praying 5 times a day to mecca?

Sat, 2011-03-12 12:29 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

I can't separate Islam or Sharia law from the culture. I can't say what is what in all matters. But neither can you. The Taliban are a very small group of Muslims who interpret the Koran in a particular way. There are a myriad of different interpretations. It like you have thousands of interpretations of the Bible and thousands of sub-sects as a result. And in the past Christianity had groups (Cortes) that justified their violence with reference to their religion.

I mean do all American men look like Michael Moore and are all American women like Sarah Palin?

Sat, 2011-03-12 12:30 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

@Helen: 'Islam is the issue, not Muslims'

What do you mean by this exactly?

Wed, 2011-03-09 12:03 — Lou (not verified)

Don't feed the troll that is Julia Harris, she only ever comments where she can make a connection between Islam, Muslims and demonise the whole religion. She has no opinion on anything else, her remit is to propagate the hate filled site that is the religionofislam.com and when faced with the facts she has no answer.

Wed, 2011-03-09 12:43 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

First of all I don't regard anyone as a troll (even you sh stirrers): just because someone has an opposite opinion to you doesn't mean you should dismiss them as worthless and not engage with them. No wonder the left is such a failure.

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:02 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

Julia, when you say, 'we', what does this mean? Are you a spokesperson for others? If so who are they?

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:06 — Mr. Divine (not verified)

And Julia where are you getting your information from? I know about Indonesia because I went there for a couple of months. You're not just believing things you read are you?

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:11 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ Lou, your the kind of useful idiot that the supremacist's love...The lefty who trys to silence and demonise those who are just reporting factually on the Hatred within Islam...I dont hate Muslims, it is they who hate me for being an Infidel. There are so many preachers of hate in Islam and so many who on a daily basis keep on Misunderstanding the relegion of peace...what a joke that is.

I am just exercising my right to express my view on them and there opinions of me, is that ok with you???

It is much different than actually what the Islamsits do...in being violent, killing and the rest- all that is actually propagated in the name of Islam - get it????

I have lots of opinions of lots of things, you dont know me.

to correct you - the religionofpeace.com doesnt hate all Muslims...it doesnt call for them be hurt or maligned in any way. It does uncover and report on the many deciptive practices withing Islam, Misinformation for the Kuffars, and reports about the countless Jihad attacks and the rest that happen on a daily basis - world wide...Why shouldnt we feel empathy and sympathy with those innocent victims? Why shouldnt there be somewhere that these tragic events that are all linked via Islam is recorded????

you would much rather 'not Engage' with this difficult topic and leave those victims to fend for themselve but you would argue the toss with me and call for me to silenced??...No doubt that sits well with your lefty 'off to save the world' mind set. You are too scared of the truth and to weak willed to stand up for whats right.

@ Mr D - you are quite correct, its typical lefty tactics to dismiss people speaking truthfully and factually but because they don't sit well with there PC mind set.

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:12 — Lou (not verified)

Mr D

I have engaged with Julia across countless articles on this matter, time and time again over months. So please, kindly refrain from telling me what to do and who I should engage with without being certain of your facts.

Sat, 2011-03-12 14:21 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ Mr Diwine, you mean me, whose Helen?
It means that it is the teachings of ISLAM that have created these terrible social and political issues - remove Islam from the equation and these people might have a chance to be free and truly happy and liberated. Noone hates Muslims because they are different or dark skinned or speak in an accent - that’s racism. but.....
You have to be fearful and wary of those Muslims who follow the violent and hateful texts which unfortunately seems to be an every increasing number. You have to pity the poor Muslims who are trapped within these oppressive societies and regimes - they know no better. Muslims have been infected by a disease of the mind called ISLAM and they need help to find a cure. unfortunately the only cure would be a the removal of the Koran and other texts or a highly edited versions of them - without any of the hateful texts removed and a real reform movement within in that had equal rights for all - so it could exist as a peaceful and progressive religion like others, but it will never happen...shame.

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:15 — Lou (not verified)

You need to go back across a variety of posts Julia written by Sholto and Mehdi and you will find I have engaged and discussed with you aplenty.

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:20 — sianushka (not verified)

Why wasn't this on the news? why do we only know this happened because of feminist blogs and tweeters?

On Sunday, part of the 'Where are the women?' questions i asked was why is vawg not news. Why are stories about women not told on the news?

I am in despairing mode today.

Thu, 2011-03-10 12:00 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ Disreali Mohamed
We are not conflating anything and we are not saying all Muslim men act badly towards women. However women’s rights in the middle east are they way they are due to Islamic teachings and the subsequent cultural mindset of the masses.
We are not making this stuff up...it exists...I didn’t re: right the Koran or the Hadiths...the words are clear about Mohamed’s hatred of women...and since big mo is supposed to be the Role model for all Muslims of course they will adopt some of his hateful and shameful characteristics.
Some of the terrible ways Muslims behave towards women that are justified in the Koran and the Hadiths..
Muslim Women are Dirty Polluting Creatures, Wife Beating, Wife Swapping, Polygamy, Fewer seats for women in Allah's Paradise, Brutal Punishment For Women, A Woman’s Testimony is Worth Only Half of a Man’s, Muslim Men can Capture Infidel Women as Sex-slave Booty, Muslim women are sex object for men's enjoyment, Women are inferior, slave to men
At best, Islam elevates the status of a woman to somewhere between that of a camel and a man.

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:22 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ Mr Diwine

2011.02.08, Indonesia, Temanggung
7 Injured A Muslim mob viciously beats a priest trying unsuccessfully to keep them from burning three churches and an orphanage.

2011.02.06, Indonesia, Banten - 3Killed 6Injured, Three members of the Ahmadiyah minority sect are dragged out of their homes and beaten to death by a Sunni mob chanting 'Allah Akbar'.

DISTURBING video has emerged of a bloody religious mob attack in Indonesia that killed three members of a minority Muslim sect, showing extremists beating and stoning their victims to death.

http://www.news.com.au/breaking-news/footage-of-deadly-mob-attack-emerge...

Indonesia: New ban imposed on Ahmadiyah Islamic sect

http://www.adnkronos.com/IGN/Aki/English/Religion/Indonesia-New-ban-impo...

Religious tensions tarnish Indonesia's moderate image

http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/indonesia/100818/religious-tensions-i...

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:24 — Lou (not verified)

sianushka,
I agree, why wasn't it covered anywhere on the news? Even the internet was reduced to a couple of links to 'unsubstantiated' reports.

In fairness though, there were tweets and postings about how not all the men were attacking the women, some were indeed protecting the women against attack. Not enough by any standard and this article of Laurie still stands in it's entirety.

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:26 — sianushka (not verified)

Des Demona

oh thew! you know some women who are highly paid. the debate is over! we can all go home.

You know, insititutionalised sexism and misogyny might be bigger than your experience of going to work...

Wed, 2011-03-09 13:29 — sianushka (not verified)

Lou - yes i saw that. the f word also reporting that there were men on both sides.

i just get so frustrated that vawg is not considered news. Every now and again we might get a special report on the congo, or on DV, or on IWD they'll give us some stats. but generally, it's just a big silence.

Thu, 2011-03-10 13:27 — Julia Harris (not verified)

Muslim women 'should not travel more than 48 miles from home without male chaperone

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/8371221/Muslim-wome...

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:36 — IBP (not verified)

A fine enough article until you the penultimate paragraph when you bring in the idea of workers.

This article should be and for the most part WAS about International Women's Day. Why is there any need to politicise it by bringing in the idea of 'worker solidarity' and giving the day to the left? Members of all political persuasions have been recognising the day, why not leave it at that?

Thu, 2011-03-10 13:35 — Julia Harris (not verified)

Oh and don't get me started on Honor Killings....

Fri, 2011-03-11 16:19 — Julia Harris (not verified)

@ Gerry, Thanks, yes there is something about people who just miss-out large chunks of the argument without thinking anyone will notice.

Islam is the issue, not Muslims and the sooner the left start engaging with this topic instead of jumping over it for fear of being labeled by fellow lefty's Islamaphobes, racists or worse - is a battle in itself!

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:42 — Jim (not verified)

IBP - because it was originally called International Working Women's Day and was started by the left. Please make an effort to learn a bit about what you're commenting on. kthxbai.

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:43 — Despard (not verified)

Well, IBP, International Women's Day was in fact created by the Socialist International coalition of left-wing political parties in 1911...

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:45 — IBP (not verified)

And times have changed and it is no longer name as such... Hardly seems inclusive in today's climate?

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:45 — Kiki (not verified)

@IBP

I completely agree. A great article until political ideology is mentioned. International Women's Day should be celebrated by all, regardless of political leanings.

I'm a Tory and I support International Women's Day.

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:45 — Rob Pembro (not verified)

It made me feel sick and ashamed to be male when I read of the events in Tahrir square - today of all days! The oppression of women is a consequence of capitalism - it won't disappear completely until after that system has been overthrown. However that is not to say that we must just sit back and wait for the revolution - we all need to fight for equality now!

Wed, 2011-03-09 15:03 — Richard (not verified)

There was no revolution in Egypt...just succession planning by the military.

The rest was just theatre and naturally the Left's 'Revolutionsromantiker' fell for it.

Egypt is changing and will lose its secularist superstructure to a more culturally acceptable form ....Islamism based on tradition and piety.

Thu, 2011-03-10 13:59 — John P Reid (not verified)

no stuart eels your the sd one for confusing those who have sacrified their lives in egypt with, as I said middle calsls posturing as acting like some sort of martyr, Wasn't it mrs Thatcher who said she owed womens lib nothing

Tue, 2011-03-08 19:50 — Dominic Morris (not verified)

YEAH LAURIE, STOP DISCRIMINATING AGAINST PEOPLE WHO HATE THE WORKING CLASS. Sheez.

Tue, 2011-03-08 20:02 — Kiki (not verified)

@Dominic Morris

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause aggression. I just want everyone to celebrate International Women's Day and believe that everyone would be saddened by today's events in Cairo.

Also I'd like to point out that my me and my family are working class, and I definitely don't hate my family and that goes for the rest of the working class!

Tue, 2011-03-08 20:05 — gault (not verified)

Human beings are at least as given to solidarity as to war.

Tue, 2011-03-08 20:15 — Dominic Morris (not verified)

Kiki: No aggression intended, just internet hyperbole.

I suppose my only point is that Laurie, as a Left wing (socialist? would she use the term?) Feminist is perfectly within her rights to advocate the two together, and has no need to play down either in the name of inclusiveness.

You might by a Tory who supports women's rights, and that's great, but my belief, and I think I'd be right in assuming Laurie would agree with me here, is that women's rights and workers rights are inseparable and that ultimately the Tory's faith in the free market and the small state is incompatible with women's rights. Which means that for Laurie to accurately present her views in a public forum, she can't play down the Leftist element of her feminism.

Which isn't to say Tories aren't welcome to celebrate IWD. Of course they are. But it is to argue that no one should be a Tory.