Hi Mark.

“A thousand different things combine to make a person's fortune in life. Most prominent amongst them luck, connections and social status, the evidence doesn't lie. And exceptions never prove the rule I'm afraid.”

No one can argue with that. If you have bad luck, and some people do attract it, you are up the creek. If you have average luck in life, get educated, work hard, and don’t think you are Mr. Gates then good things WILL happen to you. You must apply yourself, be financially frugal, and sacrifice today for tomorrow. If you are the type of person that thinks it’s owed to you by the rest of society... Sit around on your butt moaning and complaining about those that have it better than you...Then it ain’t gonna happen. Your country has an open University system. It can be done if you have the drive. Many a poor born Brit has already done it and many more will continue to do so. Yes you live in a class structured society. Work through it. Get it done and don’t quit. Life is not always fair. We get knocked down, and the winners get back up with renewed determination and REFUSE to fail. I had it easier than most but I do have a business partner that enlisted in our armed forces in order to financially assist him by virtue of his service to his country. He also had a part time job all the way through University. He worked full time all through his summer breaks. It’s in the individuals hands and mind, not your government’s.

Hi Danile.

“ the richest and most unequal society in the western world.Despite the myth and some notorious exceptions like Obama (I bet you don't like the guy), the American dream is a sham and the truth is that if you are poor in America, God hates you and you can die, literally as you won't be able to afford a doctor or get a decent an education if you survive your poor childhood.“

Get nice and comfy. Uncle Bucky has a nice story for you. My folks came here (The United States) when I was 11 years old. By the time my Dad had us settled in he had $60 left in his billfold. He did have a decent job to go to. 14 years later they sold their trucking company for several million dollars. Neither of them has any higher education. From there they went on to even better and bigger things. They are my heros. That....is the American dream if you are prepared to apply yourself and work hard. They are by no means alone in their accomplishments. For us the American dream is very much a reality and I will forever be grateful to God and the founding fathers for the existence of my country and the life it made possible for us. The American dream is alive and well. God bless America.

Daniele: I'm glad you too can see how this lot are so hell bent on private sectorisation. It's so obvious what their intentions are as we move towards the demolition of the public sector with alarming speed (although I reckon they will have to backtrack). They can't sidle up to the Banks in the way they would like to because they wouldn't dare, so their way is to put their reliance in large private sector concerns (who of course are in league with the Banks anyway). This is the most blatant move toward capitalism on a far bigger scale than we've seen before. Wage controls won't shrink the entire economy, just that of the less well off and lower middle classes. And then we all know who sweeps up don't we? You wait and see the wave of new privatised 'social' landlords that are sitting in wait for the Banks to put up interest rates, for people to become unemployed; forcing a mass of repossessions when people can no longer afford their mortgages. This lot are almost deliberately fuelling a recession to create a far bigger social divide.

I've just heard more on the news about how the post office will go to 90% private ownership. When it was state controlled, we used to get two deliveries a day, the first being around 7 to 8 in the morning. First Class now takes up to 2 days from 9 miles away; and it doesn't get here until after lunchtime! It's evil!

Nick,
"I've just heard more on the news about how the post office will go to 90% private ownership. When it was state controlled, we used to get two deliveries a day, the first being around 7 to 8 in the morning. First Class now takes up to 2 days from 9 miles away; and it doesn't get here until after lunchtime! It's evil!"
And all this shit is occuring whilst it's still under State ownership. Hardly helps in making a good case for State ownership for anything (least of all universities where, ha, ha, some element of independent thought is perhaps an important criterion) is it?

Excellent posts by Mark and Nick, especially Mark.

I wish I could understand what David Vinter really wants for his country. His medecine is at odds with the illness. David you appear to be an old-school working class conservative but that is NOT what the Tories represent. They represent Neo-Liberalism. They do NOT value hard work - they value profit over everything. They are very clever at framing issues to appeal to your sense of self but please don't confuse your interests with theirs.

Speaking from my own experience I found University (1998 -2001) somewhat perplexing. My final year aside I was not expected to work anywhere near as hard as I was during my A-levels. A lot of time was spent doing anything but studying - drinking, doing sports, shopping, doing paid work, wasting time. That of course was not true of all my peers but I'd say it applied to the majority. I left feeling that University in England was just a middle class finishing school.

I now have 12grand in student loans to pay back and well... I spent it so I won't be complaining.

What I would question is the haste with which my school packed me off to Uni when they knew I had no idea what kind of career I wanted. What was important for them was that I could be put down in the school prospectus as having gone to Uni.

With the benefit of hindsight I would have been better off working full-time for a year or two, saving up and seeing what the real world of work was like. But given the situation facing school leavers today overall I'm glad that I went to Uni when I did. I was brought up by a single mum first on income support and later on a very low wage. I really can't see how someone from that background today would be able to get to University.

BUT again to go back to my original point the student culture at our Universities is pretty low. I felt that the process made me and my peers almost pathologically self-absorbed. During my years at Uni it was 'cool' to have a working class accent. From what I can judge now anyone with a regional accent is considered to be a chav by most students. As has been noted above the HE situation IS going to lead to an EVEN more divided society with those in the professions and high paying jobs totally ignorant of the rest of the population. And that of course will have implications for our politics. It's class retrenchement all over again.

This is an extremely complicated issue and it cannot be understood in isolation. For my money it is the world of work - and specifically the private sector - which must be reformed. Businesses can no longer expect to pay the minimum possible and demand all the hours God sends - certainly not if they don't want to pay the taxes for the damages to a society wrecked by 'market values'.

I am really fearful for the future of this country.

Great article by a great blogger. It is great to see that also in this country are some radical intellectuals... left. :-)

It is time to stand up and protest. Now, or never!

PhilDuval, excellent post and point about regional accents once being considered something that was revered amongst fellow students. I remember listening to 'Common People' by Pulp the other night at a and it reminded me of my student years where even posh students tried to dress 'poor' and adapt cockney or Liam Gallagher-esque Manchester accents. How times change. Snobbery and the stigmitisation of social status has re-emerged with a vengeance. It has always been there in other aspects of life but even the student world has been monopolised and regurgitated as a superficial tool for mass consumption. Just look at All Saints, River Island and all the other robotic, production line stores where the revolution has been sold and is probably for sale at 20% per item this autumn.

It wasn't that long ago either but over the last decade or so I have noticed how much more elitist, diluted and dicvided the education system and many aspects of culture have become by a kind of condescending ,iddle-class homegenisation.

Everything from football to attending gigs to even going down the pub (which is now a cocktail bar serving cordon bleu brunch) or participating in a social life at all has become the preserve of an ultra-hedonistic, consumer obsessed and extremely affluent elite and these divisions are getting wider every day. Anyone who believes society is about to become any less divided with the current coalition in charge is dreaming.

David, I've already said I'm not criticising you.

Mr D. I've already said I plan to save. No I don't have a car. I'm one of David's lilly livered urbanites - bus, tram and bike for me.

: )

'The power of the group is stronger than that of an individual.'

My sentiments exactly.

It's true Phil, I have no problem with people getting on and earning a decent amount for a bit of fair game enterprise coupled with effort for their reward. Don't get me wrong I like what I have, but I'm not materially trapped by it all. But I do stand against an unequal society where people simply get paid way too much for their real 'contribution'. In the same way that some would say the welfare state is an unwarranted drain, I'd say that extortionate pay is just the same. Someone with a lot of money ends up wanting more or feeling they are worth more, it constantly raises the ceiling and drains money from our society in just the same way as that which is seen to be taken out towards welfare. I'm not for communism where we all drive around in Trabants, just a bit more equality where rewards are related to contribution.

No Mr D, the merry go round was most unimpressive, but if that’s the kind of fantasy thoughts that floats your boat, then I guess it's a free society. As I say, it’s not about trading PI’s to illicit reactions, it’s about an exchange of views, that’s what brings me to NS and it’s jolly interesting too.

Well said Stuart, you often give a perceptive view.

Mr Duval, eels, el al.
I am well into my 70s,read my letter, I never said I was 50, [wish I was had a fantastic 35 yo lover in my 50s]. At Nottingham University as a mature student aged 33 I read
BA Joint Hons, Economics/agricultural Economics, I was born on a farm, father had me tractor driving at weekends, he was a workaholic, having missed WW1 by 10 days.And for 12 years I was a senior financial adviser. [And we don't rip folk off in a rural area where everyone knows you!].
Any more questions? Oh yes at 32 I married a fabulous showgirl, very happy for 22 years, now 2 graduate children [ one of each]!

The terms "progressive" and "fairness" have been warped by a hard right government masquerading as the friend of the poor.

Shocking stuff.

@Danielle: You are not the first person to call me a moron: wow you're with the in-crowd on this observation. Although you are the first to call me an American communist.

First of all, where have I said that the road sweeper should be paid the same as a doctor? I've said that the doctor benefits from the labour of the road sweeper but that doesn't mean that I imply that they should be paid the same. What I have said is that because a doctor can achieve a very high salary after they graduate they can afford to pay for their studies. Surely you don't deny that qualified doctors are able to pay for their studies? Why should low income people pay for someone who is going to be far richer than them? It is the person's individual choice to be a doctor, and as such the individual should pay for their individual choice not some poor person.

You're a rambler Daniele. Your arguments ramble on making moronic connections. Here's an example of your writing:

'In any case if they make so much money after their studies, graduates will be paying loads of tax, which by the way, will help pay for the road sweeper's unemployment benefit when the State decides it has no more money to clean the streets.'

When the state decides there is no more money to clean the streets! Is that next year or the year after? What sort of moronic logic is that? Are you sure that you're not actually the President of the Morons Club and you're on a recruitment drive?

PS: take a look a Penny Red's "Divided Society" to find out my current abode, and further back to find my place of origin.

@Nick: I told you outright insults are much more amusing.

It's all very well advocating 'save and prosper' to accumulate wealth, but what's the point if it doesn't benefit consumerism which creates jobs for others? By all means save all you like, but remember you can't take it with you when your time is up!

Materialism is often associated with consumer related greed, yet surely the most materialistic of us are those that simply frugally save to keep all they have 'in the family' for future generations to equally hog in some aspiration that wise investment will increase the value of their worth. There-in lies the answer to why this wilful coalition is positively egging the days of rising inflation because it will please all of those that can benefit.

Mr Divine: I see you've reverted to your usual mode of retaliation when you're not being noticed for making your point. Your way of feeding out of of skips, furnishing off the streets and borrowing books from the library is all very well; but someone has to put the stuff there is the first place. It would be more admirable if you'd grown your own foods, made your own furniture and written your own books. Living off disposables only works when people throw away the consumables of which you disapprove. The taking of disposables is only possible by virtue of someone first buying the consumables.

As for your point over the following:

'I couldn't agree more on how it's often just down to sheer luck or your god given lot which dictates how we end up'

You seem to make a point over how it us who makes a choice in our decisions, you know that is not always the way. You've told me of how you became ill, did you have any choice over that; I suspect not? My point is it is often just down to fate, rather than self direction.

Rob: On the contrary, if you see that as a spectacular one in the back of the net, you are missing the point.

Mark and Nick you say,

'I couldn't agree more on how it's often just down to sheer luck or your god given lot which dictates how we end up'

We all end up six feet under or burnt to ashes or eaten by vultures. Along the way there are decisions that we can make that can affect what our financial position will be like in 5/10/20 years time. Some of us like myself made the decision to forego consumption in order to accumulate savings because we realised that firstly it would multiply perhaps so much that we didn't have to work, and secondly because we realise that we didn't need junk to make us happy. This wasn't done by sheer luck or god given lot it was a decision that we made. It requires you to use a bicycle instead of a car, to holiday in tents, to eat from skips, to furnish from the streets, to borrow books from libraries .. to save money. It takes time but the rewards are great.

The chance is there for all working people in the West to do this yet most go down the consumerist bandwagon like sheep to the slaughter, like workers to a retirement age of 67, like drug addicts who can't resist a product fix. They bleat and cry that's it not fair. They want more than what they are getting, they bleat, "Its all fate, look at all those rich rams strutting their stuff, given to them by god or luck." Maybe some people have been lucky, some have inherited but some of us have saved and invested and reaped the rewards.

And let me assure you are not going to steal it via bleating, "It's not fair, lets tax more and redistribute it". Get your own money.

I graduated in 1976. The daughter of a dockworker and an office cleaner I had a full grant that took me through university. I know I would never have gone to university under the current student funding system let alone the proposed one.

Social mobility ended years ago.

On the subject of paying back out of higher earnings allow me to use my own case as an example. I earned very good money before taking a career break to have children. I have never got any where near that level again since my return to the work place. I wonder how I would have managed if I were struggling to bring up small children and paying back a millstone of student debt? In real life the upward trajectory of people's lives doesn't necessarily go on for ever. Illness, death of a partner, having children all affect your career prospects.

That our esteemed politicians don't think of this is the result of their priviledged backgrounds - they never need to worry, they have rich families to bail them out such misfortune come upon them.

This is precisely why we need real people in politics - its long past the time we dumped the ruling elite.

Enough's enough.Lib Dems should walk out of this one sided coalition en mass.The Tories are using this global financial crisis to take us back to Victorian times.Out and out bastards the lot of em.

Phil: I don't think anything is safe under this lot! although savings should be in so far as the guaranteed bonds are concerned. But much greater control is needed over pension plans and so forth which do little to give anyone a return.

I do think we are headed for another recession, which should keep interest rates down for a while but beyond that my guess is they will escalate in the way they always do under a Tory Government. What we need to see is more regulation over how the Banks should adhere to controlled rates of interest to help those with mortgages and consumer credit related debt. America has made some good moves on new legislation designed to help those in debt.

Watch C4 on either Monday or Tuesday about how Osborne has become rather adept at tax avoidance on his own £4 million trust fund by the way!

Nick, spending and using up the earths resources just to vreate employment, is by definition like driving towards a cliff edge. There are too many people with limited resources!
At present I invest a modest amount
MONTHLY, hence you are always buying slowly, regardless of the price rises and falls. An adviser will rarely offer this advice as he makes less money this way! Currently I am using a mixed agricultural fund---eg Water, Tractors, Fertilizer, Seed technology, Basic food manufactureres,eg bread.

Nick, well done you've scored another spectacular own goal.

Couldn't agree more. I work in the HE sector and am similarly appalled. Am very concerned about the impact making university study a commodity will have on what are considered less 'useful' arts and humanities subjects.

Obviously, I meant:" You also didn't address the notion of an UNEDUCATED society. Do you think it's a good idea?".That would be a moronic question otherwise, wouldn't it, Divine?

i wish i went to university,i could of been a doctor,a scientist or even an mp,where did i end up,selling copys of the big issue to out of work graduates.

And the irony that the LibDems used to be known as the student friendly party that always stood against tuition fee rises (and tuition fees in general). Words cannot describe my contempt for that party. I can't remember who it was that said Liberals are worse than Tories but they were right

@Nick: Once again you've resorted to thinly veiled insults! I think you're missing my point: I'm saying the opportunity is there to drastically reduce your expenditure. Savings is income minus costs. Perhaps people can't easily do something about their income but they can minimise their costs by using things that other people waste and not buying so much stuff that really they don't need. There is nothing wrong with recycling. The opportunity is there and it isn't just fate, unless of course you regard the choices that you make as also being fate! Then you might as well forget about talking about it.

PS Didn't you like the merry go round? As well as being quite right wing in your immigration views you've got not sense of humour.