Bloodthirsty madness

Published 05 September 2008

The deplorable killing of Swami Lakhmananda Saraswati gave Hindu extremists the excuse to unleash a second terrible fury on Orissa's Christian community, reports CSW's David Griffiths

Urgent cries for help from Orissa state in eastern India are gradually turning to sober and traumatised reflection. One email in my inbox this week began with the haunting line, ‘How a 20 year old girl was burnt to death by a cheering crowd’. As the dust begins to settle after the furious communal violence which has afflicted Orissa, questions are being asked about how this could have been allowed to happen.

NGOs, religious leaders and journalists repeatedly warned of the tinderbox Orissa had become, so long as police failed to prosecute extremist Hindus for their part in instigating widespread anti-Christian attacks around Christmas 2007. Then suddenly it all exploded, in a tragic bloodbath of killing, gang-rape, arson and destruction carried out by rampant and uncontrolled mobs, this time worse than before.

So what allowed it to happen all over again?

The roots of the latest violence were deeply embedded before the attacks over Christmas 2007, which came as something of a shock. Although religiously-motivated violence has afflicted India’s Christians for a long time, nothing on this scale had ever been seen, and it was denounced by the All India Christian Council as “the worst attack on the Christian community in the history of democratic India”. Hundreds of churches and houses were destroyed and thousands displaced. Around four people were killed, several more died of their injuries later, and many more suffered mob beatings. Journalists, NGOs and government commissions rushed to the scene, and it soon became a well-established fact that the violence was the culmination of a long and hitherto almost unnoticed process of vilifying Christians and demonising religious conversions in that area. The name most associated with this was the local Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) figurehead, Swami Lakhmananda Saraswati.

However, the total failure of the government to bring about prosecutions created a toxic and volatile mixture. Swami Lakhmananda Saraswati was left by the law enforcers to perpetuate hate speech and continue his campaign against religious conversions. A small number among the Christian communities saw that the authorities did almost nothing on their behalf and took up arms, prepared to defend themselves – a lamentable factor warned about by prominent human rights journalist, Dr John Dayal, when he visited the area in January. And now it seems, Maoist insurgents saw an opportunity to gain popularity as champions of the victimised poor and beleaguered minorities.

When Swami Lakhmananda Saraswati was gunned down on 23 August, the police immediately saw it as the work of Maoists, and an extremist Maoist group has since claimed responsibility. The VHP, however, immediately blamed the Christians. Surely the Christians would have wanted him dead?, went the logic. VHP chief Praveen Togadia told CNN, “It is clear that the church killed the Swami”. Mobs quickly began attacking Christian targets, at first just in the epicentre that was Kandhamal district, but soon in twelve of Orissa’s thirty districts, and the violence spiralled out of control.

In one of the most horrifying attacks, a Catholic nun was gang-raped. A paralysed man was burnt to death in an arson attack, unable to escape his home. Others were hacked to death. The official death toll now stands at 14, but credible local sources put the figure in the region of 30, of which around 26 are said to be Christians. 15,000 people are reported to be languishing in 10 relief camps after the rampant destruction of homes and properties across the state.

Orissa’s government now finds itself in a quandary, and the world is watching. The mob violence has horrified the world and become an ugly stain on India’s international image: Italy’s prime minister Silvio Berlusconi described the attacks as ‘unacceptable’, the Pope and Archbishop of Canterbury have spoken out and voices from around the world chided the utter collapse of the rule of law in the state. Yet, one half of the ruling coalition in Orissa reportedly threatened to withdraw support for the state’s government unless it blames Christians for the murder.

Thankfully, spokesmen for Orissa’s government have so far rejected the premature judgement on Christians. The real issue is whether it has the moral conviction to prosecute the real killers of Swami Lakhmananda Saraswati, and then to bring the participants and the masterminds of the voracious bloodbath to justice.

The occasion of Orissa’s madness is a time for listening to voices of reason. The most heartening among them are condemnations of VHP atrocities by moderate Hindu voices in India. The columnist and television journalist Karan Thapar wrote in The Hindustan Times, “I’m sorry but when I read that the VHP has ransacked and killed I’m not just embarrassed, I feel ashamed. Never of being Hindu but of what some Hindus do in our shared faith’s name. This is why it is incumbent upon Orissa’s Chief Minister to take tough, unremitting action against the VHP”.

That is a voice which must be heard – urgently – or Orissa will be left with the volatile mixture of hate speech, disenfranchised minorities with no faith in the authorities to protect them, and Maoist insurgents keen to expand their reach. The only way to break the cycle is for the full weight of the law to come down on the killers.

Until that happens, we can only say the bloodthirstiness in Orissa is merely dormant.

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67 comments from readers

tomscott
05 September 2008 at 15:37

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet ... the 'rose' is human evil, the 'other name' is VHP, and the smell is another episode proving what God said in Jeremiah 17:9, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked ...". But, there is hope ... in Jesus. Talk to someone who knows the gospel today!

Madhwa
05 September 2008 at 17:27

How convenient of this bigoted christian author to leave the entire blame at the doors of VHP! I am no VHP supporter but the author is painting the evil, aggresive evangelists as angels! The root cause of social unrest in India is the tearing away of the social fabric of communal harmony by the aggressive minorities tha thave the goal of becomeing the majority themselves! This manifests itself in various ways and the end result being the conversion of poor tribals and inducing hatred in them towards Hinuism. One has to experience it to believe the venom that the neo-converts spew against the "pagans" and "devil worshippers" !

So this author justifies the killing of the old, frail Swamiji who was doing exactly the same as these cunning missionaries have been doing! So how come the swamiji becomes a fanatic but not these devils in frocks?

proudlyleft
05 September 2008 at 17:29

Let's put this in the national context. What Hindu extremists did to the Christian minority in Orissa is only a version of what they have done to other minorities elsewhere in recent years -- including low-caste 'Hindu' ones and Muslims (most infamously in Gujarat, where the party that was clearly involved continues to be in power).

But let's put it in an international context too. Nothing that Hindu extremists do in India is beyond the capacity of Christian extremists and nationalists in 'civilised' places like UK or Denmark. That it haoppens less often in the latter lands has to do with a simple fact: more people have more to lose in the case of civil unrest and violence in places like Denmark or Germany.

Madhwa
05 September 2008 at 17:39

"proudly left"!

I dont know what you left and to where! But rememeber one simple fact that Hindus, whereever they are, are a model minority and get along well with anyone and erspect the local culture, religion and language. Can you tell the same of the Indian christians and moslems? Which religion preaches that their God alone is the God and there is only one way(?) to him, which is their way! If this is not rank intolerance what else is?

Madhwa
05 September 2008 at 17:42

A funny thing with these human rights organizations, such as the one this bigoted author is member of, that they claim themselves to be secular but they bat only for their religion!

Can anyone tell me what a christian fundamentalist is doing in a "secular" NGO? Or do we change the very definition of secularism?

Ajay
05 September 2008 at 18:08

It looks like New Statesman is lowering its standards by letting it be a mouthpiece for CSW a well known extremist christian right wing group which masquerades as Human rights group.

Ajay
05 September 2008 at 18:11

David Griffiths , You may pray as hard as you want and even lie as much as you want but one thing for sure your dreams of destroying the last Pagan stronghold in India will never be destroyed like the blood thirsty genocide the Church has been doing the last 2 thousand years upon the world on all other pagan and indegenous people around the world.

califraj
05 September 2008 at 18:22

What biased reporting! The so called Christian missionaries are coming to India in huge numbers to convert people. They don't believe in any secularism. They clearly say "Jesus is the only way to Salvation" and the rest will go to hell, is that secularism? . They abuse the Hindu Gods and convert the poor with their funds.

Now that they are on the receiving end because of the hatred they spread themselves, suddenly they are all for secularism. You reap what you sow!

califraj
05 September 2008 at 18:32

Duh! I should have read about the author "CSW" specializes in religious freedom :)- yeah right, freedom only for Christians.

All this deceit and treachery of faking to be a Human Rights org will not get you anywhere. The power "up there" knows what you have done for 2000 yrs, your time to pay for your misdeeds is coming, just look at your pathetic condition in Europe and America. The Sun is setting, your time is over!

jhgdjfgd@gmail.com
05 September 2008 at 20:29

Please do not blame VHP or RSS blindly. I would put the entire blame to "Joshuaproject.net" people. It is a massive chritsan conversion project going on in almost all countires. From their website one can clearly see thier effors to convert people from other casts to Christianity. (Select "Country" from the View box and then select india from the country combo box followed by clicking the select button). One you get to see their India relavent data, then please do a sort of primary language and look at the "oriya" section.This is nonsense, the govt must ban this "Joshua Project " people otherwise more violance will follow.

laloo
05 September 2008 at 21:47

@ Madhwa, Ajay, Caliraj

Are you justifying this conspicuous genocide by Hindu fundamentalists in Orissa?

Dipak Ghosh
05 September 2008 at 22:48

Way back in 1967, State of Orissa enacted law for protection of religion of indigeneous people. Why a section of Church is not following rule of law and still enaged in religious conversion? A section of "Dalit" Hindus (called Pana Christians locally) converted to Christianity in large number.

Now, they are being politically mobilized by a section of Church and political parties to be designated as "tribal" so they can grab Govt expenditure meant for real Tribals- Kandas.

This has caused massive anger amongst Tribals. When their religious Guru was killed along with 4 of his companions on one of Hinduism's holiest day - the birthday of Lord Krisha- it created a massive backlash. There have been eight earlier attempts on his life before.

This piece is hugely one sided. Nobody supports killing of any people, be it Hindu, or Christian. But time has come particularly for the mainstream Catholic Church of India to understand the perils of forceful conversion, worse pitting one religion/group against another. They should speak against many evangelical groups which are creating bad name for whole of Christianity.

Please note, MK GANDHI was severe critic of Church's conversion agenda. So was Swami Vivekananda, nationalist patron Saint of India.

India is a land known for religious tolerance since antiquity. Nobody gave a "fatwa" to Buddha when he challenged Brahminic Hinduism.

Church, particularly the mainstream Catholic Church of India, should do lots of introspection.

Ajay
05 September 2008 at 23:59

laloo , When only 15-20 people die its not a genocide ok mate ! So use the right terminology for a start..No one is justfying violence but the anger against christian fundos out to destroy Hindu culture is totally justified and what has happened is the reaction the activities of these missionaries ok ..

jhgdjfgd@gmail.com
06 September 2008 at 02:20

Author of this article "David Griffiths" itself a fundamentalist. He is a Christain Advocacy Officer. How can he blame VHP & RSS. Is he saying they should not do anything against the planned conversion by Chritians.

taghioff.info
06 September 2008 at 04:35

Its poverty, stupid, as Bill would have put it.

The Indian countryside is in its worst state ever. The Indian government is lieing with its poverty statistics, something Uts Patnaik has been writing about for a long time, and which even the World Bank is starting to admit to.

www.networkideas.org/featart/apr2004/Republic_Hunger.pdf

80% of people in India do not have enough money to buy 2400 calories a day of food. 1 billion people (200 million more than the population of Africa) live on 1/10th of the land area of Africa.

Like Rwanda, like Darfur, Orissa faces massive impoverishment under liberalisation, as it is a marginal rainfed state unable to benefit from mechanised agriculture, unable to compete on liberalised agricultural markets. It is also home to one of India's largest concentrations of tribal peoples. In other words it is poor, very poor.

With climate change and liberalisation, these socio-economic pressures will only increase, and the two digit death tolls in Orissa now, will come to look like the good old days.

We are in collective denial about this, India is not shining, it is burning.

JayeshA
06 September 2008 at 15:52

The peace loving Christians are welcome in all the 52 Muslim states in Saudi they won't get past immiration. they are needed there. Another ANTI HINDU piece. Hindus are seen as an easy target. Please name a single Hindu suicide bomber, before bashing Hindus

caliburn_uk
07 September 2008 at 09:35

I am not a Xtian, I am a Pagan, and have suffered my share of religious persecution in my own nominally Xtian country, but the absolute rubbish being spouted by the Hindu apologists in this piece appals me.

For instance, Madhwa talks about 'tearing away of the social fabric of communal harmony' Would that be the caste system that forces hundreds of millions into grinding poverty and protects a small rich minority by claiming a religious justification. No wonder the Xtian message, however misguided, appeals to the poor.

And nobody justified the killing of the Swami, by Maoists determined to provoke exactly the violence that happened, to further communism which would destroy Hinduism much more thoroughly than Xtianity ever could! Blame those who really had something to gain.

Dipak Ghosh is even more confused. The State makes it illegal to convert people to protect the indiginous population! Some religious tolerance there! He rails against the conversion of Dalit Hindus. That is those Hindus who are forcibly held in menial jobs by extreme prejudice from other high caste Hindus. Oh how dare they rebel against there lot!

And what forced conversion? The mass conversion of low caste Hindus, which they see as a way of trying to circumvent the caste laws, is not forced conversion. What do you think is happening, for the Goddesses sake? Hindus being lined up at the point of a gun?

Yes they are being made false promises, but these are much more appealing that what they are told by their own religious leaders.

As for the claim of religious tolerance since antiquity, that is fantasy. For instance the Sikhs were actively persecuted not just by their early Moslem rulers, but by local Hindus as well, and the persecution of Sikhs by Hindus continues to this day. Both prior to, at and post independence Moslems were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, by Hindus. And Buddha is a red herring. He was a Prince and born a high caste Hindu. No Hindu at the time had any real concept he was founding another religion, he was just another Hindu teacher with strange ideas. For hundreds of years the Hindu perception of Buddhism was that it was yet another Hindu sect, and tolerated as such.

In modern times with Buddhism seen as a distinct entity, it is yet another persecuted minority. It also is elsewhere in India 'guily' of mass conversions of Dalit Hindus, for the same social reasons, and with the same Hindu backlash.

Stop looking at the world through a pair of rose-tinted, high caste Hindu glasses. If you want to stop Xtians, or Buddhists, or Moslems, or anybody else converting Hindus, then make it a religion that means something to all Indians, with genuine attempts to better the lot of the poor, and a religion of hope, not complacent religious justification of the status quo. Legal sanctions, murder and persecution cannot roll back the clock. The solution to the decline in Hinduism is in the hands of the Hindus, and no amount of demonisation of outsiders will change this.

Dipak Ghosh
07 September 2008 at 13:19

Caliburn_UK: Its hillarious to listen lecture on Dharma, tolerance from a person who has been reduced to a 'pagan' in a land where people were romaing in the jungles when universal call of the Upanishads were heard in South Asia.

Hinduism is what Swami Vivekanad defines. Not what Western funded Church, or corpus of colonial entho-centric facism have been producing for last 250 years.

Since when Xtianity started practising Caste in India? How come one remains "Dalit" even after conversion to Xtianity? Why 1000s of "Dalit Xtians" have reconverted to Hinduism in places Tamil Nadu when Church denied them equality?

You are now reduced to a third grade power- gone are days of colonialism, sooner or later Europe is to become Eurabia.

So, next best option is to create many 'minorities', invent persecution mania with sole aim to strain social relationship, encourage violence hoping it will stop India's rise. This will handen Indians' resolvem unite them on its march.

Long abuse of Hinduism, indigeneous culture by missionaries, often from very top, was the primary reason behind revival of Hinduism in late 19th century in the form of Dayanand Saraswati, Bankim Chatterjee, Swami Vivekanand, Aurobindo etc.

Make no mistake, present aganeda of a section of Xtian church to create social division, pursue violence in India often funded from abroad will result in even more bigger revival of Hinduism.

Only option is to respect law, all faiths, stop pursuing aggressive conversion agenda which is less to do with religion, more geo-politics.

Follow paths shown by Dr. King Junior, CF Andrews.

Dipak Ghosh
07 September 2008 at 13:34

And who defines "caste"? People like Swami Vivekananda, Gandhi or western funded radicals whose sole aim is to abuse Hinduism, create confusion, social disharmony and pursue their geo-political goal?

Will Billy Graham's polemic on Islam be treated with same respect?

Will Islamists polemic on Christianity be treated with same respect?

Ajay
07 September 2008 at 13:52

caliburn_uk , You're no Pagan for a start.Your facts are totally wrong.For a start majority of Hindus are of low castes so why haven't they converted to other religions. How can they be surpressed when they have most of the power in India.Alot of the high caste Hindus are poor but then a christian missionary or maybe a Sikh fundo like you will only promote anti hindu nonsense..Bring out facts and not made up nonsense.

Ajay
07 September 2008 at 13:56

Dipak these Caliburn_UK live in some fantasy.They imagine even without going to India that millions of people are in chains.Even if you wanted to you couldn't do such a thing.And top of that hes coming out with Khalistani properganda as his source.What a joke.Even if he is pagan is most probably after he saw Lord Of the Rings or Harry potter.

Dipak Ghosh
07 September 2008 at 14:29

Its not just totalitarian religious facism that condemns all plurality, there is a diabolical game of dividing Indian society further politically, create social tension with a hope it will affect rise of India after 1000 years of colonialism.

Its nothing to do with teachings of Jesus. Its a crude way to protect dwindling future of white West Europeans - plain and simple geopolitics.

caliburn_uk
07 September 2008 at 16:21

I regret that the only comebacks that you are able to post are erroneous personal insults, insults to the UK based on no knowledge of history (there were never jungles in the UK and the contemporaneous UK culture was just as advanced), and vicious attacks based on a narrow and convenient view of your own countries history.

To quote 'Hinduism is what Swami Vivekanad defines'. I am actually very happy with that. He spent many years in the West, understood it well, and gained from it without knee-jerk condeming it.

He was also an advocate of the complete seperation of religion from the state, and would have been horrified by the VHP.

He made great strides in teaching us in the West that Hinduism is not a caste-ridden, misogynistic idolatrous faith. But unfortunately the practice of Hinduism in much of India does not reflect the purer form of Hinduism he preached. It is still mired in the very practices which lead to unbelievable problems in much of India, and which are now being exported to Indian communities in the UK.

I regret that you are unable to similarly seperate the practice of Xtianity by a number of misguided adherents, and see some huge scheme to attack India. In reality these sects are doing exactly the same thing, in different ways, in every country in the world, including mine. But the answer is NEVER to advocate, or apolagise for, extreme violence

It is very strange that the small minority here find it acceptable to condemn a culture they know nothing about, but in vicious terms reject any comment on their own.

Where exactly is this religious tolerance? It appears completely lacking, up to and including your comments back to me.

I will pray to the Goddess and her Consort that the anger, hatred and intolerance I see here will be transmuted to the love, tolerance and understanding that I believe is your true legacy as Hindus.

Dipak Ghosh
07 September 2008 at 17:43

caliburn_uk: You better ask whether the Xtianity pursued by a section of Church - demonizing all others, convert by any means, taking arms are the real messages of Jesus?

Is this the Xtianity of Dr King jr, CF Andrews?

Kandas, the tribals who rebelled against Church, are survivor of the epic "battle of Kalinga"- where Ashoka won but lost 150,000 men. They are not fools to not to understand what is going on in the name of 'freedom of religion'.

We have seen human catastrophe of unprecedented scale when 10s of millions of aborigines of Americas, Australia perished at the hands of the colonizers.

Tolerance is the need of the hour. Indeed. But its a question that leading Xtian organizations have to raise and reign in those who are breaking it.

Tolerance of intolerance is not the answer.

Ajay
07 September 2008 at 22:30

caliburn_uk , I'm born and brought up in the West and but I'm also from an Indian background.And I know for fact you have no idea of what the hell you're talking about.You're definitely a christian fundo trying to pretend you are pagan or like my pagan friends you would be talking about the destruction of Pagan traditions in the UK.Anyone knows that most of the old churches are built upon Pagan religious sites.

caliburn_uk
08 September 2008 at 23:23

I swore to myself that I would let this rest, because you cannot force a man to open his eyes when he insists on being blind.

But Dipak, you are justifying the murder of Xtians based on a memory of religious intolerance by the Kandas. What memory? Ashoka died 2240 years ago, if he ever lived at all, of which some Hindu scholars have raised genuine doubts. There is no memory, only that which has been told and retold, being re-interpreted in every telling.

Live in the now, do not base your attitudes on events that happened 2 1/4 millennia ago. If the whole world did that there would be nothing but bloodshed everywhere. If your justification is the Battle of Kalinga, then you really are lost. Do not deny your history by any means, but live in today.

And Ajay, your so called pagan friends are 'fluffy bunnies'. The sites that had churches built upon them were lost between a thousand and seventeen hundred years ago! Why should I spend my time worrying about them. The destruction of pagan traditions occurred at the same time. I am a Pagan today, and I live my paganism in the now. So do my friends. The Pagan tradition we are interested in is that tradition we are building by re-finding the Goddess. Not bemoaning things that are lost in history.

Please stop time and time again trying to paint me as a Xtian fundamentalist. This may come as a surprise but there are many sides to any problem, and I can challenge your opinions without being a Xtian. And I do challenge you. The few Hindu friends I have been privileged to have were all fervent pacifists, but I do not presume that a man is not a Hindu because he is not a pacifist, but I can ask him to look again to see if what he is espousing is the right way.

Oppose the Xtians by all means. But answering intolerance with even greater intolerance starts a cycle that ends with the entire world engulfed in flames.

Again, my prayers are for you (and yes Pagans, true Pagans, do pray, to the Goddess our Mother, and all her aspects.)

Dipak Ghosh
08 September 2008 at 23:54

>>my prayers are for you (and yes Pagans, true Pagans

Stop this villification of others faith, culture. The colonial days are over, wake up!

It shows how fundamentalism has crept in a section of Xtian followers. Even a worst bigoted Hindu will NOT condemn others faith- DONOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT.

Too much crap have been allowed in the name of freedom of religion and now it means stealing poor peoples job, furthering WHITEMAN'S BURDEN.

Dipak Ghosh
09 September 2008 at 00:07

Use media, forums for furthering understanding of culture, mutual respect.

Shouting "PAGANS" ,"PAGANS" do not accomplish that.

You have no right to condemn others faith. And its punishable offence in India.

Mlopes
09 September 2008 at 04:37

Guys the fact of the matter is, ANY group that commits mass murders, vandalism of holy places, torturing the religious and non-religious is Wrong,Evil and misguided!

I am a Catholic, and my religion teaches me that Christ is the only way. Deal with it!

If you are so secure about your religion whats the problem??

If you believe that Hinduism is the correct way that's your choice.

If you want to go to poor villages, help the sick, give them money and proclaim your religion that is your choice, and the choice of the people to discern for themselves what path, if any, to chose.

It is called Evangelising.

When you put strings attached thats bribery (Or whatever term u want to use, this is for the nit-pickers),

And when there are threats and violence, thats forced conversion!

... There is nothing wrong with defending and proclaiming ones religion.

Nobody has been doing "Forced conversions" except the VHP who has clearly murdered the Christian converts if they refused to reconvert back to Hinduism.

If the minorities' was a forced conversion from Hindu to Christianity, surely at the threat of being Burnt/Gang Raped/Beheaded they would have gladly fallen back to Hinduism!

As for Ajay's comment on "the blood thirsty genocide the Church has been doing the last 2 thousand years upon the world", I'm sorry, the Pope is repeatedly apologizing for the past, everywhere he goes! And "the blood thirsty genocide" is clearly not part of the Christian present. Are u seriously going to defend the attrocities committed by VHP (Note, I do not say Hindu) based on this weak excuse??

There is NO Excuse or justification for any murder of any sort, be it of the Swami's or of the Christian Minority of Orrissa.

lobo
09 September 2008 at 16:12

Nice article David.

As an Indian Christian myself I am horrified at the alarming way violence against India's Christians is increasing. The latest violence in Orissa has completely shattered my rather rose-tinted romantic image of India - a so-called 'secular democracy' yearning very hard to join the league of other superpowers. Secularism in India has always been flawed. Today we are seeing a determined and sustained effort by the Hindu nationalists to turn India into a Hindu nation. Muslims and Christians have no place in a Hindu nation.

The comments made above by Indians are becoming quite mainstream. There is an aggressive anti-Christian propaganda in India led by hard-line Hindus. The most frequent charge is conversion. Do you know that there are anti-conversion laws in place in several Indian states? We are just 2.3% of the population and our numbers are not increasing significantly, yet we are all accused of proseltyism. Actually this is nothing but a concealed attack on our religious freedom.

I personally know some Christian doctor friends who used to live in northern India. They used to hold prayer meetings in their house. There were no conversions going on at all but they got accused of trying to convert people! All they were doing was practicing their faith and they get accused of proseltyism. My friend narrowly missed being hit on the head with a brick once.

I'm not very optimistic things are going to get much better for my fellow Christians in India. There's no real commitment on the part of civil society or the government to check anti-Christian violence. Its nice of liberal journalists like Karan Thapar to condemn the violence but that's not enough. We could see even worse violence than this in the future and you can expect see plenty of justifications (like those above) for that too.

Personally, incidents like this only make me more proud of being Christian.

Ajay
09 September 2008 at 18:28

"If the minorities' was a forced conversion from Hindu to Christianity, surely at the threat of being Burnt/Gang Raped/Beheaded they would have gladly fallen back to Hinduism! "

Sorry but where's your evidence ?

We're only getting this from Christian groups so thats not proof.

"W I'm sorry, the Pope is repeatedly apologizing for the past, everywhere he goes!

Well he seems to convienently ignore refusing to the Hindus for Goa Inquisition.

Vijaykumar
11 September 2008 at 20:04

Madhwa writes, "The root cause of social unrest in India is the tearing away of the social fabric of communal harmony by the aggressive minorities tha thave the goal of becomeing the majority themselves".

If preaching religion amounts to "tearing away of the social fabric", why is it a fundamental right given in the constitution?

You further write "One has to experience it to believe the venom that the neo-converts spew against the "pagans" and "devil worshippers" !"

This is not true at all. Such pretexts are popped up as if that would be a good justofication to indulge in riots, murder, gang-rapes, communal genocide etc

Vijaykumar
11 September 2008 at 20:07

Dipak Ghosh writes "You have no right to condemn others faith. And its punishable offence in India."

Really? When did India become an Islamic republic?

Vijaykumar
11 September 2008 at 20:11

Dipak Ghosh: "Even a worst bigoted Hindu will NOT condemn others faith- DONOT TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT."

Who asked them to refrain from condemning? Atheists do that all the time to Chrisitianity. There is no problem at all. That is part and parcel of pursuit of religion/philosophy. What the "worst bigoted Hindu" is doing instead is to indulge in riots/rape/murder/vandalism/burning people alive etc - as if that is an acceptable behavior as compared to condemning or criticizing a faith.

Vijaykumar
11 September 2008 at 20:18

Madhwa,

>> they claim themselves to be secular but they bat only for their religion!

You seem to have no idea of what secularism means. It means the state treats all citizens regardless of religion/race/caste etc as equal citizens. And people have right to practice/proclaim/promote any religion/culture/traditions etc as long as the law/constitution is followed (that is use of riots/force/burning peiople etc is not allowed). An individual citizen in his private capacity is perfectly allowed to "bat only for their religion" without using violence.

Dipak Ghosh
12 September 2008 at 03:37

VijayKumar>>And people have right to practice/proclaim/promote any religion/culture/traditions etc as long as the law/constitution is followed

1. There is a law enacted by Orissa Govt in 1967 that District authorities must be contacted prior to religious conversion. It was upheld by Supreme Court of India.

2. Christian Population was 10,000 in the Kandamal distric as per 1971 census.

3. As per 2001 census, Christian population is close to 120,000 (to 180,000 according to different estimates).

4. Officially, only two have been converted to Christianity.

5. ITS A CASE OF BLATANT ILLEGAL MEANS THRO' WHICH ALL THESE SOULS HAVE BEEN HARVESTED.

6. WHO IS FOOLING WHOM? WHY XTIAN GROUPS ARE NOT FOLLOWING LAW, ENGANGED IN DISINFORMATION?

7. Worse, they are now demanding Tribe status so they can eat away the Govt measures enmarked for Schrduled Tribes.

8. Its worst case of illegal, immoral means thro' which all these activities have been going on for decades. English Language Press of India filled with apologetic Hindus may no say much. But on the ground people have seen thro' this game.

Dipak Ghosh
12 September 2008 at 03:38

VijayKumar>>When did India become an Islamic republic?

Go and read Indian Laws again.

Dipak Ghosh
12 September 2008 at 03:43

Vijaykumar>>That (codemning ther religion(s)) is part and parcel of pursuit of religion/philosophy.

This is not religion what India believes in. This is not the religion of Swami Vivekanada, or Gandhiji.

You are following FACISM IN THE NAME OF RELIGION. This has destroyed plural culture of Europe, wiped out indigeneous population of Americas, lower part of Africa, Australia.

Its most shameful and dangerous that these fanaticism are being imported by Xtian groups in the name of freedom of religion.

Dr. King Junior, CF andrews are turning their head seeing these bigoted who highjacked Jesus for money, geo-politics.

lobo
12 September 2008 at 10:16

Why do Hindu nationalists have to feel so insecure about a small percentage of the population who decide to convert to Christianity? Try to rid yourselves of the caste system - probably the longest standing form of apartheid anywhere in the world - first before trying to legislate against conversions. Only the most the conservative countries in the world have laws against apostasy. Do you really want India to become a theocratic Hindu nation?

Christianity arrived in Kerala in the first century. It hasn't destroyed the culture of that state. It is the most socially diverse state and yet the most peaceful, and Christianity has played a valuable role in terms of education, health care and reducing caste prejudicism. India is not South America or Africa, although some parts of India like Orissa have human development indexes comparable to sub-Saharan Africa.

Dipak Ghosh
12 September 2008 at 13:33

>>Do you really want India to become a theocratic Hindu nation?

This rhetoric can end up collecting more funds outside India for furthering geopolitical agenda in the name of Xtian right in India.

But it has little basis, or analytical support. Go back and read the article of Partha Chatterjee on Hindu Nationalism way back in 1990s , "Secularism and Tolerance", where he discussed these issues. The conclusions were surely opposite to what Xtian rights have been using for propaganda.

Anyway, as I stated before- WHETHER IT WAS MK GANDHI, OR SWAMI VIVEKANAND, OR ANY NUMBER OF NATIONALIST MAKERS OF MODERN INDIA FROM DAYANAND TO BANKIM CHATTOPADHYAY TO AUROBINDO TO BIPIN PAL TO LAJPAT RAI TO RAJAGOPALACHARI................ALL OPPOSED AGGRESSIVE CONVERSION AGENDA OF CHRISTIAN CHURCH IN INDIA.

Events of Kandamal was NOT DONE BY MAINSTREAM CHURCH- BUT BY A RADICAL FRINGE.

Time has come for mainstream church in India to stand up against these illegal, immoral practice of conversion by any means.

If somebody thinks India will allow free conversion, he is DAMN WRONG. AND LET ME MAKE IT VERY CLEAR- IT WILL BE BIGGEST ISSUE THAT HINDU RIGHT WILL ACCEPT WITH OPEN ARMS.

Respect all religions, diversity of faith. Stop reducing religion to "I am the best". THIS IS INSANE. THIS IS FACISM WHICH WILL NEVER GET ANY SUPPORT IN INDIA. Follow rule of Law.

Dipak Ghosh
12 September 2008 at 13:36

Stop this funda- my religion is best, and non-followers are pagan (or Infidel).

World has paid massive price because of these fundas for last 2000 years.

Further tolerance, understanding between religions.

Ell-Jay
12 September 2008 at 17:42

The first drop of blood shed in the name of religion was a waste.

The oceans of blood that have furthered the trend are an enduring disgrace on all of mankind, and will be for all time.

Dipak Ghosh
12 September 2008 at 20:07

Let a Hindu become a better Hindu.

Let a Xtian become a better Xtian.

Let a Muslim become a better Muslim.

This is what MK Gandhi wanted. Stop this geopolitical game, carrying white men's burden of aggressive religious conversio by a section of Church.

Any misuse of tolerance, politicalization of caste, or massive chuch owned educational infrastructure built in India thanks to British patronage will radicalize Hindus further.

Writing is on the wall.

A rising Indian middle class will never accept religious conversion.

Vijaykumar
12 September 2008 at 21:29

Dipak Ghosh,

>> There is a law enacted by Orissa Govt in 1967 that District authorities must be contacted prior to religious conversion.

True, but it is really a non-enforceable law (like the blasphemy laws of UK). It is not inline with a secular humanist constitution and defies logic/commonsense. How can the law control/regulate what is in my heart? I personally find it annoying and an insult to my humanity if I have to report to a government authority about what I believe in my heart.

>> You are following FACISM IN THE NAME OF RELIGION

Exchange of ideas and leaving it to the people's free-will to either accept or reject is not Fascism. In fact it is the exact opposite of fascism, as everyone has the freedom to choose his/her path and all have the same rights/freedom. Your allegations of “spreading hate” etc has no basis etc. It is true of VHP as their leaders are publicly justifying the riots, killings, rape, burning alive etc.

>> Stop this funda- my religion is best, and non-followers are pagan (or Infidel).

At the end of the day it is about exchange of ideas and all have the right. The hindu has as much right to preach and promote his religion across the length and breadth of India/world (like people of any other religion). Yes, if you dig out all the literature of all the 2 billions Christians, you sure will find some odd cases of caustic/criticism attack on other religions, but then, the same is true about all religions and philosophies. Please don’t get paranoid with bizzare imaginations. If you love your religion, proclaim it and let people decide whether to accept to it or not. It is a basic human right. That is what Christian missionaries are also doing. Absolutely nothing wrong.

Vijaykumar
12 September 2008 at 21:43

Dipak Ghosh,

>> Let a Hindu become a better Hindu. Let a Xtian become a better Xtian. Let a Muslim become a better Muslim.

I agree, but then, I will also add that let each person have the freedon/right to choose his/her path. There is absolutely nothing wrong in that. The choice can be aided by an exchange of ideas, presentation of religious doctrines etc. Even the poor/gullible you talk about - it is not as if only the Christian preacher has exclusive access to them. Let the VHP have their religious discourses in those areas and across the country/world. Who will object to that? Even the poor/gullible have a right of religion; to listen and make his decisions in matters related to his soul. The poor mans soul is as valuable/sacred as that of yours or a rich mans soul. Please do not assume the right to make decisions on their behalf. It is between each person and God. God did not appoint you or me to regulate the souls of others (while we all can present our cases for others consideration). To assume such a right to deny the rights of people to make their free religious choices/paths is playing God. Apparently you do not believe that all paths can lead to God (as you seem to claim to believe). If so, you ought to be indifferent to other peoples choices of paths.

>> A rising Indian middle class will never accept religious conversion

It is not the "rising Indian middle class", but the growing funatism/intolerance that seems to be the problem.

Vijaykumar
12 September 2008 at 22:32

Dipak Ghosh

>> Respect all religions, diversity of faith

Christians believe in the path of Jesus, but they do not deny the freedom/right of others to choose theirs. That is what respect of diversty means.

Respect of diversity does not mean that you should be forced to believe in Muhammad or Quran even if you are convinced that you want to follow Jesus or Vedanta instead. If you are convinced about Vedanta and not Muhammad, you are free to proclaim/present/write about it, but let others also do it. And let each person decide for himself/herself what they want to believe. This is the first fundamental of tolerance and respect for diversity.

Dipak Ghosh
13 September 2008 at 03:40

Vijaykumar: Your Xtianity is not different from what is preached by Islammists, Jehadis.

History will tell us MORE massacres have been perpetrated by Xtianity than even Islam.

Change this TOTALITARIAN APPROACH. Else, I bet, there will be equal viscious fanaticism from Hindus.

Mlopes
13 September 2008 at 08:14

Thanks for letting us know where you stand Dipak.. you seem to be hell bent on defending "viscious fanaticism from Hindus" by banking on the past, history history history!!

Sadly nowhere in History do your fanatics apologize for the massacres that they do (lets talk of Orissa, Gujurat).. err, why go for history? They are not even taking responsibilty for their present actions!

Frankly these discussions have diverted from the main topic and that is we should all unite against violence on our people of ANY religion (Hindus Muslims Christians...etc...) be it for any reason, religious, sentiments hurt, anything! No one can take the law in their own hands. Murderers are murderers no matter how u justify them. And people who support the murders, rapes, lynching and mobbing are well, no less.

And before you bring up our Church's past, let me tell you that the Church has a very clear stand today, that although we cant rewrite the past, we do admit it was wrong and we do not support violence of this kind in the present. I am not taking a religous stance saying Hindus are bad, I am saying that we should not support groups that take law in their own hands and kill innocent people.

Vijaykumar
13 September 2008 at 09:11

Dipak Ghosh,

>> History will tell us MORE massacres have been perpetrated by Xtianity than even Islam.

I (or anyone for that matter) do not deny the atrocities of the past in the name of the church on various occasions (either though inaction, complicity or direct involvement). That does not mean that the right of religion is to be denied. That is like saying that Hindus should not be allowed to preach and no one should be allowed to become Hindu because there were/are caste atrocities, untouchability, widow burning, human rights violations etc in the name of Hinduism. If we go by that, no one will be allowed to speak or write on any religion (or even atheistic ideologies because even they led to atrocities). You cannot deny the right of a person to choose any of these religions just because some leader belonging to these religions had/has committed some mistake. So we now have the secular humanist constitutions/laws, which identifies, recognizes and grants legitimate human rights/freedom. You are not allowed to practice untouchability, but allowed to practice/preach/write about hinduism. The same is the case with Islam, Christianity or any other. Anyone is allowed to preach the life/message/doctrine of Jesus. They are not allowed to re-enact an inquisition for example.

Vijaykumar
13 September 2008 at 09:26

Mlopes,

>> we should not support groups that take law in their own hands and kill innocent people

Absolutely! Whether atrocities are/were committed in the name of church or in the name of Islamic rule or in the name of hinduism/caste etc we should all condemn all atrocities/injustices and support the legitimate rights/freedoms/dignity of all people (regardless of religion, caste, race etc). We now have much more clearly defined constitution/laws, UN universal declaration of human rights, Geneva convention etc, than in the past.

Dipak Ghosh
14 September 2008 at 04:21

Why don't you Chistian radicals ask Sonia Maino Gandhi to openly support your position: TOTAL FREEDOM FOR CHRISTIAN GROUPS TO CONVERT PEOPLE IN INDIA.

Will you?

Let her say that publicly. And people will decide democratically what needs to be done.

Vijaykumar
14 September 2008 at 07:10

Dipak Ghosh,

>> ask Sonia Maino Gandhi to openly support your position: TOTAL FREEDOM FOR CHRISTIAN GROUPS TO CONVERT PEOPLE IN INDIA. Will you?

All humanist, secular, democratic constitutions in the world (of which India is the largest) already provide that freedom. Even the anti-conversion laws only talk about use of force, bribery etc, which is not really an issue in theory/principle (the RSS/VHP know that Christian organizations do not use force/bribery etc, but they want it as a tool for harassment, but that is a different matter). If you google for Orissa VHP, you will find a lot of news reports showing use of force, death threats to convert people to Hinduism, that is where the anti-conversion law has to be used. Since it is done during mob violence and rioting along with murders and gang-rapes, so conviction is difficult (we know how difficult it is to convict for anti-sikh riots). The police/CRPF etc are after the VHP who are rioting, burning people etc. It is the VHP who is on the wrong side of the law.

>> And people will decide democratically what needs to be done.

It is quite possible that an anti-constitutional, anti-humanist rhetoric can be used to whip up emotions and mislead people to win elections (if Saudi Arabia were a democracy, Al Queda men will win hands down). Jesus did not need political power and in fact said that the kingdom is spiritual in nature and not of this world and not political. Living under the oppressive Roman government, Jesus and New Testament asked to respect the rulers and political authority. So you can be assured of it regardless of which government is in power.

Dipak Ghosh
14 September 2008 at 17:36

You guys are no humanist. You guys are bigoted Christians who unleashed dark ages in Europe. People have been burnt. Scientists have been ut to death.

You folks are no different from Islamists, jehadis. Actually worse. The world accoding to you started 4000 BC. As per Bible.

So, keep on thumping your chest and Bible. Nobody cares a little.

Vijaykumar
14 September 2008 at 19:38

Dipak Ghosh,

>> unleashed dark ages in Europe. People have been burnt. Scientists have been ut to death.

I have already commented on this (13 September 2008 at 09:11). Please respond to that.

>> The world accoding to you started 4000 BC.

A very outdated view. No christian today thinks that this is the teaching of the bible. Even the 'young earth creationists' which is a minority christian view, gives it a lot more thousands of years.

>> keep on thumping your chest and Bible. Nobody cares a little.

You are free, not to care, just like others have the freedom to care. There are who care especially those who have never seen dignity, education, healthcare, empowerment, human rights/respect/justice etc for generations. For them, the dignity/hope offered in the life/message of Jesus may matter a lot. Also there are millions who are on a spiritual search who find Jesus as their answer (it is their choice and they are free to make their choices). The VHP is also free to 'not care' and they are equally free to preach their religion with all their might. But they chose 'to care' using the path of violence/murder/rape/burning etc. all of which violate the constitution/law/UN universal human rights declaration etc. Such evil have been done in the dark ages too (by all religions again), but that is no excuse for anyone re-do the evil. Islamic terrorists quote the dark ages, as if that justifies their re-enacting all evil of all evil people of history (even in the most darkest of ages, it is the misuse/abuse of some evil men, not worthy of re-enacting, except by those who deliberately want to be evil themselves).

Dipak Ghosh
14 September 2008 at 21:06

VikayKumar: You have sold your soul, while India is oldest living Civilization in the world irresective of desperate try for last 1000 years first by Muslims, then for 200 years by Church.

Church have been successful in destroying Mayan, Aztek, Indigeneous Australian Civilization. But not India.

I AM NOT A MEMBER OF VHP, OR BAJRANGDAL.

BUT AS FAR AS THE ISSUE OF UNFETERRED CONVERSION IN THE NAME OF FREEDOM OF RELIGION BY CHURCH GOES, YOU ARE DAMN WRONG.

AVERAGE HINDU WHETHER SUPPORTER OF CONGRESS, OR COMMUNISTS, OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSE AGENDA OF CONVERSION BY CHURCH.

This is the land of Gandhi, Swami Vivekanand, Swami Dayanand.

Dipak Ghosh
14 September 2008 at 21:08

Still, if radical fringe of Christian Activists wants to play politics, rally people along caste with a goal of pitting one section of Hindus against another, GO AHEAD.

Its the people who will decide how to handle. And what happens to those who support THESE POLITICAL GOALS NOT RELIGION.

Its a choice that you have to make.

Dipak Ghosh
14 September 2008 at 21:13

Average Indian associate Church with personalities, polemic of (say) Dr. King Junior, CF Andrews.

People like John Dayal, who goes to UN session and speak against India, Hinduism, have so far NOT in the radar.

Its mainstream Xtians of India who will decide who represents Xtianity- John Dayals, Thampus, or Dr. King Jr/CF Andrews.

Vijaykumar
15 September 2008 at 07:14

Dipak Ghosh,

>> You have sold your soul, while India is oldest living Civilization in the world .

India itself is multi-cultural, multi-traditional. You are representing one dimension. Please don’t be paranoid. Let people mind their own business and everyone is free to choose their path. All your talk about all paths being valid, that there should be no claims of superiority of one over the other etc just lip service?

>> Church have been successful in destroying Mayan, Aztek, Indigeneous Australian Civilization. But not India.

Cultures/traditions etc are always in a flux. They are not static. Many Christian writers have acknowledged and deliberately brought to fore, the philosophical sophistication of Hindu philosophy. If the search is for truth and morality, people need not be afraid of ideas.

>> Still, if radical fringe of Christian Activists wants to play politics, rally people along caste with a goal of pitting one section of Hindus against another, GO AHEAD.

This is all your imagination. There is no such thing. Show from the teachings of Jesus where is political power? Or at least show sho is doing it? You cannot show it in either theory or in practice. There are Christian organizations even in the most hostile and terrifying conditions like the radical Islamic nations, extreme communist nations etc. Depending on which organization we re talking about, they are involved in social relief or proclamation of life/message of Jesus. The goals are well defined and open to public scrutiny. It is very easy to attribute any motives on anyone. The political choices of Christians are influenced by the same things that influence all others - like efficiency of administration, solving of peoples problems, ability to deal will all citizens as equal citizens (regardless of religion, caste etc), respect for human rights/justice etc as enshrined in constitution and so on.

>> AVERAGE HINDU WHETHER SUPPORTER OF CONGRESS, OR COMMUNISTS, OVERWHELMINGLY OPPOSE AGENDA OF CONVERSION BY CHURCH.

People of all religions are free to proclaim their religion through the length and breadth of the country and there are many organizations of all religions who do it. Apparently, those who think that they cannot cope up, indulge in false propaganda, demonization, attributing false motives, use of violence etc. It may work sometimes, for sometime.

>> People like John Dayal, who goes to UN session and speak against India, Hinduism, have so far NOT in the radar

He might have spoken about the need for dalit upliftment etc. No American objects to talking about treatment of blacks in America etc, if they genuinely want to correct whatever mistakes are done and want to remove any blemishes. Please don’t be hyper-sensitive and paranoid. Where there is true merit of ideas, no one can do anything (even with the use of violence etc). Those who are genuine, they actually invite criticism from all quarters.

Dipak Ghosh
15 September 2008 at 16:24

RACISM AND VARNA (which has been reduced to Caste by Xtian groups) ARE NOT SAME.

KRISHNA, THE MOST DOMINANT HINDU GOD, MEANS "BLACK" IN SECULAR SANSKRIT.

ITS PEOPLE LIKE YOU WITH ULTERIOR POLITICAL MOTIVE TO DIVIDE AND DESTROY INDIA ARE ENGAGED IN THESE FUNDAS UNDER GRAB OF FREE SPEECH.

Dipak Ghosh
15 September 2008 at 16:28

As I have stated many a times, use internet, forums to further understanding between Culture, religion, commonality.

Do NOT reduce communication methods to further Facist religious agenda of "I am the best, whoever don't follow me are HEATHEN/Infidel".

Don;t use these powerful tools to abuse others culture, religion. Further geo-political aims under grab of religion. History will judge them as WOSE BIGOT THAN THOSE POOR AFGHANS ARE ARE BLOWING THEM. Because those who are using media, forums like this are 'educated'.

Dipak Ghosh
15 September 2008 at 16:34

Hinduism will survive.

It will mutate into aggressive mode depending on the threat.

That's how Swami Dayanand gave birth to aggressive Arya Samaj, introduced "reconversion" AS OTHERWISE THERE WOULD HAVE BEEN A XTIAN STATE IN PRESENT DAY PUNJAB because of aggressive Conversion of Missionaries.

THAT'S HOW SIKHS WERE BORN FROM KASHTRIYAS. That's how Nath Sampraydayas were born.............

Hindus can follow Hinduism - of genteel Ramakrisha Paramhansa , or aggressive Dayanand Saraswati. Now, which will become dominant will depend on what others do.

Vijaykumar
15 September 2008 at 17:11

Dipak Ghosh,

>> As I have stated many a times, use internet, forums to further understanding between Culture, religion, commonality

I agree. Every religion/culture can present their doctrines/principles/philosophy, the merits of their culture etc. Every religion/culture has merits. Hinduism which has survived the test of time surely has a lot of merits and philosophical sophistication to talk about.

>> Do NOT reduce communication methods to further Facist religious agenda of "I am the best, whoever don't follow me are HEATHEN/Infidel".

If you look at the life/teachings of Jesus, he claimed to be God incarnate and gave a call to follow him (his moral commandments, relationship with God etc), and whoever did not like it were free to go/reject. We don’t even see Jesus even persuading hard or trying hard to convince anyone.

>> Hinduism will survive. It will mutate into aggressive mode depending on the threat.

Hinduism (or any religion for that matter), should survive on merit of convictions and not by "mutating into an aggressive mode", if by that you mean, use of violence. If violence is required to survive, you cannot have it at your disposal all the time. It is at best a temporary measure.

>> Further geo-political aims under grab of religion.

You cannot find an iota of political motive in the life/teachings of Jesus. The separation of religion and politics is explicit and distinct. So also the instruction to respect political authority. So, as I said, even if a through and through BJP government comes to power, you can be rest assured that Christians will respect the BJP’s political authority (as they did the Roman authority in first century and asked Jesus' followers to respect the politcal authority).

Dipak Ghosh
15 September 2008 at 23:43

Vijaykumar is a recurited soldier to saveguard dwindling stock of white West European male supremacists whose days are numbered.

Their goal is to create chaos, confusion in India (and rest of Asia) with a faint hope that will stop RISE OF ASIA. History is brutal and no power on earth can stop rise of India (and Asia).

Mainstream Xtian Groups understand the damage being done by foreign funded groups like "new Life" and assorted Pentecostal Groups. AND THEY ARE SPEKING AGAINST IT.

People understand the difference between Dr. King Jr/CF Andrews and likes of Dayals, Thampus.

You can keep on babbling infinitely- NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE. Hindus respect ALL religions. Xtianity of King Jr/CF Andrews types are adored.

And Xtianity of Dayals/Thampus (which is pure politics, no religion), and Pentecostals (which is Xtianity to what Islam is to Al Queda) shall be stopped by 1.2 Billion People.

This is the promise I am going to make for you. And history will prove me right, not you.

Dipak Ghosh
16 September 2008 at 03:38

Swami Vivekanand himself wrote in a letter after his Chicago speech, that funding of Missionaries have dried up from the West.

Today, NGOs, anti-National Indians, simple soul sellers, activists have formed a cartel who thrive on "victimhood" of minorities.

And its for their existance, they keep the pot boiling. However, people are the ground level pay the price.

VijayKumar and their illks will continue this as it fills their coffer.

Mlopes
16 September 2008 at 09:16

Dipak?

Paying the price?????

thrive on "victimhood" of minorities??

Are u seriously suggesting we are "thriving" on what happened in Orissa? That we want the activists to desicrate our places of worship, violate our women, that to our religion women, and render the poor people homeless??

Or is it simply just that "We are paying the price".

Leave aside respecting all religions (which you say we do not do), do you respect human life?

Vijaykumar
16 September 2008 at 12:01

Dipak Ghosh,

>> recurited soldier to saveguard dwindling stock of white West European male supremacists whose days are numbered. Their goal is to create chaos...

So you have finally dropped all pretense of reasoning, logic, evidence etc and came down to baseless rhetoric, wild imaginations/allegations, false propaganda etc.

>> NOTHING IS GOING TO CHANGE.

Let all people have freedom to practice/choose their faith/religion/path. If nothing is going to change, so be it. Why all the violence, gang-rapes, burning of people etc? Actions speak louder than words.

>> Xtianity of Dayals/Thampus (which is pure politics, no religion), and Pentecostals (which is Xtianity to what Islam is to Al Queda) hall be stopped by 1.2 Billion People

It is appropriate to say that VHP/Bajrangdal is to hinduism what Al Queda is to Islam, or what inquisitors were to medieval church, because they mix/mixed religion with politics, want religion based rule of law, use violence, murder, riots, killing of innocents, oppose freedom etc. What exactly is your problem with Dayal/Thampu? That they speak up for the downtrodden? Common sense and what is right will prevail, notwithstanding your challenges to the contrary. It is the use of violence/indoctrination that will dry up - whether it is VHP or Al Queda. Don’t count too much on violent indoctrination and false propaganda.

>> Swami Vivekanand himself wrote in a letter after his Chicago speech, that funding of Missionaries have dried up from the West

Do you have the figures?

>> Today, NGOs, anti-National Indians, simple soul sellers, activists ...continue this as it fills their coffer.

Your definition of anti-national seems to be those who work for the education and empowerment of the downtrodden. Somehow your "coffer" seems to be inversely proportional to the education/empowerment of downtrodden. That seems to be your problem. Please don’t confuse national interest with your self-interest.

newnewgen
16 October 2008 at 07:58

A women was without food lying in the pavement, a man came to her and said i will give you food but you have to satisfy me in the bed. The christian missionaries are doing the same. They are indulging in conversion activies. It is not that americans are intelligent. It will be a matter of minutes to brain wash people. if you find a person without clothes, give him clothes, if he does not have food give him food. If he does not have shelter give him shelter, if he is not feeling well, pray to your god BUT CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES ARE GIVING HIM BIBLE AND ASKING HIM TO COME AND PRAY IN CHURCH. JUST BECAUSE CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES HAVE MONEY

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About the writer

David Griffiths is an Advocacy Officer for Christian Solidarity Worldwide (CSW) - a human rights organisation which specialises in religious freedom in over 25 countries around the world