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305 comments from readers

spkurer
03 September 2007 at 20:33

To anyone who has lead or been on one of these course -this article is just laughable. Rediculous' I can't even begin a critical appraisal.

Roll on bloggers -more trash for your predjudices...see below:-

elder
03 September 2007 at 22:27

Let's see - Holehouse is comparing a camp run for 12-15 year olds, that teach that dying for Allah while killing Jews is the ultimate goal, with a camp run for adults that teaches the importance of peace while preparing for war.

What a scoop!

dennisberg
03 September 2007 at 22:47

Haha... this article is so off the mark it's hilarious! Marva and Gadna are nothing more than holidays that people go on for a bit of fun and a physical challenge. They are characterised by girls crying because they've broken nails and boys trying to look cool holding a gun that couldn't be fired even if they had been given any bullets to fire from it.

To suggest that any of these people are actually being trained to fight for Israel is laughable (and rather worrying if you're an Israeli!).

To try to draw an equivalence between Marva and a camp "organised by Islamic Jihad, which were teaching Palestinian adolescents to become suicide bombers" is actually quite sick and highly irresponsible.

amba
03 September 2007 at 22:52

The difference here surely is that there has never been a Jewish terrorist attack on British soil, whilst there have been several by Muslim extremists. Furthermore, the Maarva programme is in no way military training, but rather a simulation of something intrinsic to the life of every single Israeli citizen - the necessity to defend their homeland against a permanent external threat to their very existence, such like we have never faced in modern British history.

manesh
03 September 2007 at 23:03

http://tinyurl.com/ytesw6

This clip I found on YouTube pretty much shows that it's more a bit of fun for these kids and not a terrorist training camp. If you look at more of those videos, you realise this is just a summer camp that gives foreign Jews a taste of what it must be like to serve in the army, but which isn't actual army training!!

Michael
03 September 2007 at 23:13

"Shooting an M16 gun… physically lying on the land of Israel, learning how to defend it, gave me an immense sense of pride" writes a breathless Aimee Riese, a London schoolgirl and recent participant, in the Jewish Chronicle.

I didn't know it was possible to write breathlessly.

Tim Holmes
03 September 2007 at 23:32

For those commenters above who don't appear to have actually read the article, the only comparison made in it is the putative one in the last sentence of the article; and the answer to it is so obvious as barely to need stating.

As for the laughable argument that "there has never been a Jewish terrorist attack on British soil" - so we wouldn't be arresting these Pakistani kids if their targets were principally non-British? Please.

In any case, there have been plans for such serious terrorist attacks, quite well-documented. According to the Times, for instance:

"JEWISH terrorists plotted to assassinate Ernest Bevin, the foreign secretary, in 1946, as part of their campaign to establish the state of Israel, newly declassified intelligence files have shown. The plan was devised by Irgun, the insurgent group led by Menachem Begin, who went on to become a Nobel peace prize winner and prime minister of Israel.

"Begin, whom MI6 believed was backed by the Soviet Union, planned to send five terrorist cells to Britain to carry out bombings and assassinations that would “beat the dog in his own kennel”."

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article12205.htm

Also documented here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/05...

But it doesn't stop the pro-Israeli nutters from coming out of the woodwork, and it doesn't stop the media applying a blatant double-standard on Israeli state terrorism - something I've drawn attention to before.

http://memory-hole.blog.co.uk/2007/07/11/are_saddam_s_republ...

Matthew Holehouse
03 September 2007 at 23:35

Dennisberg, Amba, Manesh -

the article makes it quite clear that the Israeli army does not intend to use its Marva recruits as soldiers and does not regard them as such; hence the statement from the JAFI spokesperson dismissing those that imagine otherwise. My understanding of it is the same as that of Isi Genn Bash - that this is a case of teenagers 'playing at soldiers' and that Marva aims to give people a 'fun taste' of the IDF.

Given the statistics available oninjuries and deaths sustained by children as a result of suicide bombings and IDF operations, as summarised in the link below, I think I can be forgiven for finding such a 'summer camp' a rather depressing and inglorious project.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_and_minors_in_the_Isra...

speegster
03 September 2007 at 23:37

I wholeheartedly agree with all these comments, especially dennisberg, who speaks of irresponsibilty, though I think he's being too nice.

This comparison is risibly asinine - has Mr Holehouse ever even been to Israel and seen one of these camps himself? He literally has no idea what he is talking about, and yet his article is featured on the front page of the NS website - shameful practice for a weekly supposedly dedicated to quality journalism.

What, for instance, of the Army Cadet Force, here in the UK, that provides not adults, as described in this article, but children as young as 12 with military training, and is funded by the Ministry of Defence, which prosecutes a war in Iraq to which Mr Holehouse is apparently opposed?

dennisberg
03 September 2007 at 23:57

Mr Holehouse... firstly, much respect to you for coming on and responding to our comments.

You say that your article "makes it quite clear that the Israeli army does not intend to use its Marva recruits as soldiers", yet the title of the article is "The British children who train to fight in Israel". This title is somewhat contradictory to your argument and highly misleading if , as you say, none of these participants are actually trained in order to fight.

I do appreciate your view that Marva and Gadna may not be your ideal choice of Summer Camp. However, by introducing the article with references to Jihadist camps where suicide bombers are recruited and trained, you are undeniably suggesting that there is a comparison to be made between the two camps and that is grossly unfair and entirely irresponsible.

amba
04 September 2007 at 00:32

Tim Holmes - I have indeed read the article, and I think that last paragraph is the one that needs addressing.

Before I make my point, allow me to say that even one civilian death is too many, and this is why I took my year out to work for Israel's ambulance service in Ashkelon, just north of the Gaza strip. I remember my first day of volunteering, when I went to the Erez crossing in Gaza to transport an 18 month Palestinian boy called Ahmed and his mother to a hospital in Tel Aviv, to fix a congenital heart defect. We treated about 6 Palestinians every day, just at my checkpoint. Are these the actions of a country whose army doesn't care about civilians?

Israel does not indiscriminately attack civilians. That only happens when - purely for example - someone fires a kassam rocket at a town with no real target in mind, as long as that target is Jewish. Compare this to an army which does not actively try and kill civilians, and it's very hard to draw a moral equivalence.

I disagree wholeheartedly with Mr. Holehouse, there is everything to gain from arguing that the motives of a Palestinian terrorist out to cause terror, and a conscripted 19 year old boy protecting his country, could not be more opposite.

Furthermore Mr. Holmes, I am not suggesting that attacks on other countries are OK, I am merely illustrating that Jewish terrorists are rare. So rare that your first example occurred in 1946!

My final point is to Mr. Holehouse:

"the article makes it quite clear that the Israeli army does not intend to use its Marva recruits as soldiers and does not regard them as such"

I appreciate this. The fact is that Israel doesn't consider them soldiers. They don't consider themselves soldiers. Nobody considers them soldiers any more than a member of the RAF Cadets is a soldier. This is not some secret militia training post that you have discovered. This is a well documented summer camp that serves to highlight the particular troubles faced by teenagers in Israel - regardless of their own personal political beliefs.

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 09:37

Dennisberg. You are simultaneously amused and sickened by this article. How very confusing for you. Amba defending homelands seems to be something you think only Israel has a right to. What about the 'occupied' territories. Don't those who live there have the same entitlement and without all that handy American hardware available to the Israelis what are they supposed to do? Throw toilet rolls?

Colonel Blimp
04 September 2007 at 10:22

I knew an Israeli girl once. My what beauties!

Cybertiger
04 September 2007 at 10:26

@amba

"Israel does not indiscriminately attack civilians."

Utter nonsense!! The IDF not only attacks civilans, it kills Palestinian children with callous discrimination and with utter impunity.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

Check out the Palestinian child who was murdered on 5 October 2004. What threat to the homeland was Iman al-Hams? Why did this little girl die? And what of the murderer; what punisment did he receive for the cold, callous, calculated killing?

Daniel
04 September 2007 at 10:43

It is morally reprehensible to make a comparison between camps training young people to martyr themselves and to kill and maim innocent civilians and an educational experiential program that encourages young Jews to be proud enough of their Jewish national identity to fight for it. Marva and Gadna programmes are more similar to Cadet army programmes int his country. Let's hear you condem those programs for their militaristic ideologies and you may have the right to take a stand against youth military programmes anywhere, but to deny the Jews the right to encourage its youth to stand and fight for the rights of the Jewish people and the Jewish state is anti-semitic.

Tom Paine
04 September 2007 at 10:59

British Jewish children are British subjects. If they wish to learn about military service then they can join the British CCF! Going abroad to a propaganda camp to learn about hand-to-hand combat, drilling and weaponry from any another nation is entirely objectionable. It is not anti-semitism to say this. How would you feel, Daniel, if British Iranian teenagers were going to similar camps in Iran?

arag
04 September 2007 at 11:34

"Utter nonsense!! The IDF not only attacks civilans, it kills Palestinian children with callous discrimination and with utter impunity."

Join the Israeli army and then tell me that this is true. Israel does not kill Palestinian children, it helps them. I personally can give you an example of this from the year I spent there this year, helping Palestinian children every day who were taken to Israeli hospitals to have heart operations paid for by Israel. THis is not a country that kills civilians. It is a country that has been put in the position where it has to defend itself daily and sometimes civilians are killed when terrorists hide among them. Israel targets specific terrorists which it believes to be a threat to Israel. If these terrorists hide among civilians it is inevitable that someone will be killed, the IDF apologises for every civilian death.

WIth regards to marva, it is in not a propaganda camp. It is simply trying to young Jewish teenagers who want to know more about Israel a taste of the army which is intrinsic to life in Israel.

Cybertiger
04 September 2007 at 12:26

@arag

"Israel does not kill Palestinian children, it helps them ... "

... into the after-life ... and on into Paradise ....

In 2004, 118 such children were helped by the forces that defend Israel.

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

During the same year, 8 Israeli children were so helped by Palestinian freedom fighters. One can only conclude that the Israeli democracy is considerably more effective at helping semitic children.

PS. "Revenge, at first though sweet, Bitter ere long, back on itself recoils". I believe Israel is now a Paradise Lost.

rudz
04 September 2007 at 12:32

Matthew Holehouse these inglorious summer camps: involve social action, volunteering and tzedekah (righteousness).

As well as volunteering on an army base...

- I volunteered at an old age home, met and engaged with the Arab community and other minority groups

- helped poor Ethiopians start a life

- I coached football in a disadvantaged poor economic community.

- We also volunteered in soup kitchens and at multi-racial schools e.g. Haddasah Neurim in the north.

- I was a firefighter for 3 months in the city of Haifa.

I apologise if these programmes are therefore 'depressing' and 'inglorious'.

Your article Mr Holehouse clearly lacks basic research and knowlege about these programmes and I actually find that fact rather embarrassing.

These schemes take place on summer tour and on a gap year. If volunteering your time to help a war ridden part of the world achieve peace and understand its problems is an inglorious act, I wonder what isn't inglorious.

'And these kids, in olive fatigues with thick glossy hair and ubiquitous aviator sunglasses, look sharp. "Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid" one participant tells me.'

You haven't contextualised or explained why you used this quote?

Cybertiger
04 September 2007 at 13:02

rudz is perplexed about youth, sex, and the religious difference.

""Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid" one participant tells me.' You haven't contextualised or explained why you used this quote?"

I hear it told that the young British male thinks about sex every six seconds. Do Jewish ones think differently?

Matthew Holehouse
04 September 2007 at 13:23

To take points in turn:

Rudz - I am aware that these other programmes do feature as part of gap year programmes. Thank you for bringing up the fact that there are a wide range of activities available, of which marva is just one. In fact, a number of the Jewish students I spoke to chose to take options such as firefighting, teaching and journalism because they felt marva makes little contribution to Israel and is 'playing at soldiers'. Good call.

Various posters - Yeah fine, I also think that cadet forces in this country suck too. And when the MoD organises a nine-week course for members of the Anglo-Saxon diaspora involving marching, shooting machine guns, hand-to-hand combat, and lessons in British history, I'd be very happy to give it the same treatment. As I would were Iran and Yemen to organise a similar programme.

Arag - Is Marva a propaganda camp? Obviously this is difficult for many given the pejorative connotations of the term propaganda. But read the article. Marva involves 'lessons' on Zionism and IDF ethics; it seeks, in the words of one Jewish gap student, to equate serving in the IDF with having a fun time and to identify with soldiers in the IDF; and that the spokesperson for the JAFI told me that the "raison d'etre of everything we do" (his words) is to "educate them [Diaspora teenagers] to defend their spiritual homeland by arguing for it". Propaganda, education, call it what you will.

As for comparisons with camps run by Islamic Jihad &c - please note that the assertion that Jews on gap years are terrorists was never made (although if the IDF is so precious about being compared to violent groups it should consider killing fewer civilians). Rather, the comparison is made to demonstrate that within the conflict, the cooption and indoctrination of the young by politicians is not the preserve of the Palestinians.

Daniel - seriously? Please...

Ben Zona
04 September 2007 at 13:46

Very poor journalism, the author has really dug deep for this one. Seems he trawls through the Jewish Chronicle each week for stories. One must ask what his motivation is here, with some of the insinuations, one can see that he has very sinister motivations and a clear agenda.

Correct me if I'm wrong, don't Brits have school kids cadets that play war games at weekends and during school holidays?

spkurer
04 September 2007 at 13:56

Mathew- first of all- well done for responding on the blog

Having said that-the title and in particular the last paragraph present an outrageous mis-representation of these programs.

Thousands of us who have benefited enormously from these experiences find your article-what can I say -laughable. It is just so far removed from reality.

It's like I go watch Man U-and one guy shouts out to Keano as he takes on Lampard- 'murder him' and come home to find Man U fans being accused in the press of mass murder-I know a very facile comparison but if you actually knew anything about these tours you would realize how equally rediculous your comments are.

The vast majority of the leadership (possibly all) of these groups are left leaning, progressive and passionate about working towards peace-not only within Israel but the wider world in general.

Your article and the New Statesman has provided another wonderful opportunity for Israel bashers and anti-semites to let loose.

Mathew-seriously?Please....

rudz
04 September 2007 at 14:33

Matthew first of all I appreciate the time you've taken to respond to our comments.

I genuinely do believe your article is a poor piece of journalism. Many of those interviewed who dismiss the concept of the marva programme actually contradict the name of the article, 'the british children who train to fight in israel,' therefore I'm suprised you use these people as evidence to backup your line of argument.

lewis
04 September 2007 at 14:35

Matthew, how can you say that you would treat a similar program run by Britain/Iran/Yemen in the same way?

There is a clear distinction between countries such as Israel and Britain, which are free and democratic, and Iran and Yemen, which are known sponsors of terrorism.

The Israel Defence Forces are not a terrrorist organisation, and as such people who participate in these programs have every right to do so.

ColinNB
04 September 2007 at 14:37

Matthew,

One of your most damning accusations is that: "Marva demonstrates how some Zionists have inadvertently come to mimic their opponents in defining Israel solely by its militarism."

Firstly, as you now acknowledge, the gap-year programmes mentioned include Maarva as one component of a year-long course designed to strengthen young Jews' identity and connection with both their religion and with Israel. These normally include studying about Judaism and Israeli history, volunteering, learning Hebrew, etc: hardly a myopic focus on the military aspects of Israel, making your comment seem rather silly. Your tone appears to ridicule those who think that the IDF is an integral part of Israeli society. I struggle to imagine that you are so ignorant as to think that the IDF does not play a major role in shaping Israeli society. It is especially influential in the lives of young adults who have to serve for 2/3 years. Surely any organisation that claims to be giving young Jewish adults a year of learning about and experiencing Israeli society must give them an experience of the IDF, where all of their Israeli contemporaries serve? To fail to do so would paint a very false picture of Israel to their participants.

As I said, I doubt that you are stupid enough to think that the IDF is not a major influence in Israeli society. Thus, unless you are simply writing in order to be sensationalist, without knowing the reality of these programmes (a possibility), there must be some other, underlying, question that you are trying to pose. It is this: Should British Jews be learning about their religion, culture and, most of all, Israel?

The answer, of course, is an overwhelming “yes”. To Tom Paine, the thing that makes you uneasy about British-Iranians going to Iran is that Iran is a fundamentalist dictatorship whose values are diametrically opposed to those of Britain and who recently carried out an act of war on the Royal Navy. A better comparison would be: “How would you feel if British Australian teenagers [sic] were going to similar camps in Australia?” Doesn’t sound quite as bad now, does it?

Your tone in your last post seems to cast doubts on educating young Jews about Israel as their “spiritual homeland”. This is one of the fundamental beliefs of Judaism – a cursory glance at the Bible, Talmud or Prayer Book would make this blindingly obvious. Are you opposed to young Jews being taught Jewish values? However, the Jewish community’s primary objective is to pass on these values to the next generation, to create proud and knowledgeable young Jews, and to reverse the worryingly high rates of assimilation. It is abundantly clear to anybody with any understanding of the Jewish community that gap-years in Israel, including programmes like Maarva, are the best way to achieve these objectives. Unless you are opposed to the Jewish community instilling strong Jewish identities in its young people, then you should encourage and praise such programmes.

mbrad
04 September 2007 at 15:01

is this actually a serious article?

gadna and marva are glorified out door persuits trips

there is almost no affiliation to any army work

and is simply there to show foreign children a small glimpse of how it is to be an israeli citizen

to compare this to jihadist camps is more than insulting it is disgusting

this is about self discovery and overcoming challenges not properganda

seriously in future please could there be some sort of fact in them

thanks matt

benjaminfinger
04 September 2007 at 15:25

It is remarkable that The New Statesman has failed to analyse this article in anyway before publishing it.

It seems painfully obvious that this is a very poor article which cannot truthfully be termed as "journalism". Holehouse approaches this subject with either extreme anti-Israel bias or severe ignorance of the history of the country, the politics of the region and the true function of the programme in question.

Why an article like this was commissioned in the first place seems even more remarkable. The truth is that the programme is part of the Education Department of the Israeli Defence Forces. It is set-up to educate diaspora Jews about the true function and practises of the people who defend Israel. This knowledge is then used to combat the anti-Israel propaganda in diaspora societies; specifically on University campuses and in the press.

But if this was reported - it would be completely unsensational - and thus worthless in a world where newspapers are highly commercial institutions instead of truthful informants of current world affairs.

The New Statesman should be ashamed at having given a platfrom to such a sensationalist and overtly subjective article.

Furthermore, Holehouse should re-evaluate the reasons why he entered Journalism in the first place and questions whether he is really reporting truth or constructing fallacy to support his own political leanings.

I am personally aware that the way in which Holehouse conduct some of is research, especially with regards to procuring quotes from participants was done with considerable subterfuge. One now has to question why he needed to go to these measures to aquire opinion from mere teenagers!

youthworker
04 September 2007 at 15:27

Mr Holehouse is correct in asserting that games of moral equivalence are worthless when it comes to Middle East violence, and yet, he does. I think he gives too much credence to the ‘military’ aspect of the programme. In reply to his deliciously provocative questions, let me ask him this, when was the last attack by graduates of this programme on the tube or at an airport? Are participants taking part in combat? Is the IDF seeking to attack British interests or undermine her society? I have a sneaking suspicion that Mr Holehouse knows the answer, but the temptation to imagine a conspiracy from this adventurous activity programme was too great an opportunity to miss. Nice try Mr Holehouse. but let’s face it, even the UK allows us to dress kids up and play at war, what would the Iraqis or Afghanis have to say about that?

benjaminfinger
04 September 2007 at 15:40

p.s. Holehouse - with regard to your feedback comment:

"Propaganda, education, call it what you will."

I suggest a basic course on "The Politics of the National Socialist German Workers Party 1920-'45" and perhaps of "Communist Party of the Soviet Union 1922-'53" for a thorough understanding of the term "propaganda" and then I suggest you go to Israel, to Marva, sit in one of their classes on the History of Israel or the Ethics of the Defence Forces and then reconsider whether 'propaganda' can indeed be made a synonym for 'education' in the Marva classes.

Once again a display of poor education, basic journalistic skills and subjectivity.

You hold a position of great responsibility Matthew, please consider the effects of laxity in your prose.

youthworker
04 September 2007 at 15:40

Mr Holehouse - I admire the comments in your blog, but this is not what you implied in the article, that is a wasted journalistic opportunity.

Mr Holmes - lets not even try, shall we say ‘historical equivalency’, Marva and the Irgun, now there is a great comparison! This is laughable.

Mr Paine wrote

- How would you feel, Daniel, if British Iranian teenagers were going to similar camps in Iran? -

They do! Perhaps not Iran, but in other countries, and it is very problematic (we have seen the results)! I think the arguments on this blog suggest that this programme cannot be compared them.

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 15:57

benjaminfinger you're a prat. Seems to me you're the one with the poor education. One definition of propaganda is 'particular doctrines or principles propagated by an organization or movement'. Are you seriously suggesting on the one hand that these schemes aren't being seized by as an opportunity for the IDF to spread the word and on the other you write: 'It is set-up to educate diaspora Jews about the true function and practises of the people who defend Israel. This knowledge is then used to combat the anti-Israel propaganda in diaspora societies; specifically on University campuses and in the press?' That's propaganda! And you're a bigoted prat!

lee52
04 September 2007 at 16:04

"And these kids, in olive fatigues with thick glossy hair and ubiquitous aviator sunglasses, look sharp. "Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid" one participant tells me."

and??? This article is pure anti-Jewish propaganda, The author clearly went out to try and find a story, found nothing, and so decided to spurt utter garbage with little point or direction. And all this in a supposed left-wing magazine...

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 16:17

I know plenty of British jews who are utterly revolted by post-Rabin Israel. Are they anti-Jewish too?

lee52
04 September 2007 at 16:20

no...whats you're point?

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 16:28

Well why don't you try to work it out?

Pierre
04 September 2007 at 16:39

My family and the majority of our friends have agreed that until the occupation of Palestine is resolved to the satisfaction of both parties we will not knowingly purchase any goods made in occupied Palestine.

Brad Brzezinski
04 September 2007 at 16:46

Historically, Diaspora Jews understandably felt it necessary for survival, to support Israel in various ways, like attending Marva.

I cite the media-EU-UN coalition that treated so differently Israel’s attack on Jenin in 2002 and the rather similar current Lebanese attack on Nahr el-Bared. Israel was pilloried virulently and accused of a massacre. Lebanon killed at least 5 times the number and totally destroyed the camp but attention has been muted and often laudatory. This kind of biased treatment is what causes Jews to continue to feel threatened, allows Matthew Holehouse to get away with articles that make specious equivalences and it all perpetuates the mistaken belief that Israel is an evil entity.

Tim Holmes: If you'd like to understand the ROOT CAUSES of Jewish terror (such as it was) against Britain, you should read this 1948 article from Nation Magazine. Despite the political climate, the British military was attempting to stifle the nascent Jewish state, stopping Jews from getting arms and allowing Nazi POWs to join the Arab side as military commanders.

http://emperor.vwh.net/history/br.htm

lee52
04 September 2007 at 16:55

Well, chum, I understand you clearly, but my point was that yours is a non-point.

I have not accused anyone who has distaste for Israel or its actions of being 'anti-Jewish', but the distrubing theme of this article is that it, infact, has very little to do with Israel or its policies. The fundamental point of this article is the 'disturbing discovery' that scores of British, Jewish, teenagers are spending their summers on this cadet like program, not dissimilar, it seems, from our very own CCF (which I had the misfortune to be involved in at school). And if we look at some of the rare sourced content in this article, such as; "When discussing the Middle East they really do try to present both sides of the story and the overriding message is of striving for peace", we find that there is little substance to the claim that this program is in any way negative. And if we are to believe the content of above posts by those who are more knowledgable of such programs than ourselves, we discover that Matthew, unfortunately, either didnt do detailed enough reserach, or more sinisterly, chose to omit details which would soften the negative image he builds up. Whats clear, however, is that if he has an outriding aim, it is to villify young Jews who take part in this program (blatant from nuances like the one above), which, has, as I said, very little infact to do with Israel.

Yonatan
04 September 2007 at 17:01

As both a former participant and organizer of Israel Experience programmes for British Jews, I find the suggestion that any equivalence can be drawn between young British Jews participating in Israeli army programmes and young British Muslims participating in terrorist camps in Pakistan mischievous, ill-informed and utterly preposterous.

No one is training British Jews how to murder innocent people. No one is training British Jews how to make suicide bombs, or how to fly aeroplanes into buildings, or how and why to cultivate an intense ideological hatred for anyone different to themselves. Instead, the programmes in Israel are designed to teach about contemporary Israeli society and Jewish identity, and, in part, to examine why it has become so incumbent upon the State of Israel to invest so heavily in its own defence. Sadly, your poorly-researched, simplistic and profoundly distasteful article only serves to fuel this sense.

Pierre
04 September 2007 at 17:32

Perhaps the British were ahead of their time, The next we will be hearing about is the need for a homeland for the Rastafarian's or other religious cults.

dayenu
04 September 2007 at 17:41

Interesting thought ...Arrest Jewish kids at heathrow on their arrival after Israel camp? What for, being drunk in charge of a felafel?

Have you ever considered a career in comedy Mr Holehouse? Certainly your journalism isn't up to much.

Robert Powell
04 September 2007 at 18:08

Actually you don't understand because - like so many of the people involved in this so-called debate - you only listen to your own rather hackneyed viewpoint which you're delusional enough to consider to be fact and not opinion. Kindly don't call me chum.

Dan L
04 September 2007 at 18:11

Tim Holmes:

You're bringing up 1946 Irgun politics in modern day comparison with Palestinian tactics?!!

Perhaps we should also continue bombing Germany, just in case they want to refresh old grudges...

rudz
04 September 2007 at 18:20

Robert Powell your tone is very hostile, angry and infact quite intimidating, you're struggling to debate and discuss without insulting people.

I keep reading your comments waiting to see a constructive viewpoint, but it keeps reading just an angry rant and nothing factual or informative.

rsars
04 September 2007 at 22:39

i can do nothing but laugh at the twat for writing it for being so misguided and having the cutzbah to compare the 2. it is a simulation designed to make you desire to make alliyah and join the idf. marva in itself is in no way basic training, true we learn to fire guns and we do drills, but lets be honest you can teach yourself and make up your own drills. the commanders are in no way able to teach people how to fight, they themselves run "camp" for lack of a better word and are no older or even younger than the participants. although i have great respect for the program and the organisers and leaders you can substitite the word mefaketed for madricha or mefaked m'p' for rosh.

Jeremy
04 September 2007 at 23:11

What is Holehouse’s problem? Military training, if a couple of weeks could amount to that description, is not the moral equivalent of training to be a terrorist. Being a cadet is not being a soldier. Even firing a few automatic rounds at a paper target is not equivalent to training for suicide attacks on civilians.

The article reports debate and review of the experiences of these youngsters, the purpose of their experience and how it will be seen by others. I look forward to reports of similar freedom of expression from the “equivalent” martyr brigades over whether their murderous rants should be made more “PC”.

On the whole, enough material got into the article to raise serious points about the differences rather than the similarities between British Muslims and British Jews. If young British Muslims had similar experiences to the Jewish youngsters where they were more able to question what they were doing, why and against whom, we would all feel much more comfortable about it.

As for Mr Holehouse, he just does not seem to like cadets, public schools or Jews. I can’t say that I enjoyed my time as a CCF cadet ( on free school meals) myself and no sane person likes militarism but we all need security and someone has to provide it. By way of example closer to home, the security arrangements for every gathering of Jews in the Northern Hemisphere has to be well planned and supplied with trained volunteers who know that if there is a serious incident, their job is to die noisily enough for others to escape. If police were used instead of volunteers, the force would need to double in numbers.

Some cadets, whether CCF or Jewish may go on to become soldiers. If they didn’t, there would be no Israel and if they hadn’t in the past, Mr Holehouse would be writing propaganda for the London office of Der Sturmer.

Pierre
04 September 2007 at 23:14

Odd that there seems to be a similarity. reminiscent of Nazi Youth Camps.

Brad Brzezinski
04 September 2007 at 23:40

Pierre: "Odd that there seems to be a similarity. reminiscent of Nazi Youth Camps."

I’m pleased you noticed:

Palestinian Youth Training

http://www.somebodyhelpme.info/palikids/palikids.html

Muslim Youth Jihad Camp Pennsylvania, With Al-Qaeda Linked Cleric

http://www.pipelinenews.org/index.cfm?page=jihadcamp7606%2Eh...

Hezbollah’s Shi’ite youth movement,

http://tinyurl.com/yqsx6h

Bosnia

http://tinyurl.com/ynrkcr

Iranian President calls upon Iranian youth to join the Iranian Organization of Martyrs

http://tinyurl.com/yqcgmy

chameleon
05 September 2007 at 00:06

Matthew Holehouse no matter what you "meant" in your article it is bound to be received by some as part of the Israel-bashing agenda prevalent in the British press, but it will also appeal to those who are looking for excuses to question the "loyalty" of these Jews to their own country, England.. This seems to be the underlying motive of the article and as such it is baseless and reprehensible. I make no accusations of anti-Semitism, but this article is riddled with the disingenuous equivalence of the motives of these children with the less than benign ones of British Muslim youngsters anxious to prove themselves through extremist Jihadism against the West, and who despise what this country stands for.

It would seem that to you, Holehouse, 350 years of undeniable beneficial loyal service by the Jewish community to this country is worth nothing.

Hannah Kuchler
05 September 2007 at 00:17

If we were sending kids just out of school to pretend to be soldiers in Iraq as some kind of cultural experience, what would that say about our culture? Israel is doomed if it defines itself by conflict. Yes, they do participate in other activities, which are much more normal for a gap year, which are often about helping those less fortunate than oneself. But while on Marva the kids are playing at toy soldiers in a foreign land that they think belongs to them with little thought to those without the right to return to their homeland, or those whose lives are made unbearable by occupation.

This is an interesting, thought provoking article which should provoke argument, but there is no need to start simply insulting its author.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 01:44

He fails to mention that a gap year in Israel isn't travelling. You're a resident for 10-12 months and one therefore attempts to immerse themselves into Israeli culture and society as a 18/19 year old. All 18/19 year olds serve in the IDF, there is therefore no better way to do this than volunteer or have a little taste of the army.

ak47
05 September 2007 at 02:10

When I was 14 I was placed on the bus with the rest of my class and taken to the military shooting range at Rzischev near Kiev, Ukraine (Former Soviet Union). We were given ak47s and live ammo and told to shoot. Our training consisted of anti-American and anti-Western hate infected propaganda, marching, singing communist songs and a great deal of Marksism-Leninism.

I was looking for some snooping British jornalist to describe our humiliation but couldn't find one.

I think you Brits should arrest those Jewish kids returning from Israel, throw them on cargo ships with little food (like you did during WWII with their ansestors bearing German names) and send them to Ausralia.

This may free some additional space for the poor Gazans and Pakistanis.

TDR
05 September 2007 at 02:55

Enough people have pointed out how ridiculous this article is, so I won't even get started with that. What I really wonder about is the MOTIVE of someone who writes/publishes this kind of garbage. It is very disturbing to me even as someone who is not Jewish, but I suppose it's emblematic of the anti-semitism once again taking root in Europe ( especially Britain ).

jtuf
05 September 2007 at 03:04

"If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?"

I didn't realize the Pakistani and Yemenite governments had foreign legions. Do they work like the French Foreign Legion?

Pierre
05 September 2007 at 03:14

Israel,

A racist people living on stolen land....................

chaos
05 September 2007 at 03:44

The article is written in such a way to create the impression of equivalence.

The description of the IDF's self-righteous outrage at the Palestinian terror camps followed by the transition at the start of the second paragraph, what does it do?

"What went unreported was that..."

It clearly creates a connection - Islamic Jihad is running Genocide for Dummies camps, but no one is mentioning these Israeli camps!

It would only be relevant to mention them at the same time if they were similar for some reason.

One can only imagine Mr. Holehouse sitting around having a good laugh knowing that some people would read his description of the Marva program karaoke! Dance-offs! - and still think that there is an equivalence.

Camouflage-induced machismo! Funny, the quote actually says "camaraderie," which is something quite different from putting on a display of testosterone. There's Mr. Holehouse laughing again at the manhood of anyone who attended these camps - why not just call them cowards flat-out? It would save space and not offend the English language. Camouflage-induced machismo, that's genius.

A description of how even-handed the program tries to be follows - it doesn't quite connect well with the clear attempt earlier to create an equivalence, doesn't it? That's why Mr. Holehouse has to try to salvage the article by then immediately mentioning weapons training and then saying "that's what it's all about," in direct contradiction to the facts he just reported - the removal of house-to-house fighting training and simulation of the Battle of Ammunition Hill. It's amazing how you managed to contradict yourself in the space of two paragraphs, Mr. Holehouse.

Goleman writes "somewhat naively" of being pleased that old people in Israel thought he was a conscript and complimented him for (in their belief) defending their homeland. So, Mr. Holehouse, do you find the idea of being proud of the soldiers of your nation itself "somewhat naive," or do you believe that it's just "somewhat naive" for Jews?

Yes, a program whose point is apparently at least 50% "getting laid," that bends over backwards to teach history even-handedly, that has removed various bits of combat training and simulated operations, is defining Israel solely by militarism. Honestly, Mr. Holehouse, did an editor see this AT ALL before you posted it? You can't go more than three sentences without writing an assertion that the facts YOU REPORT IN THE SAME PIECE contradict.

Again, is it "depressing" in general to get a soldierly experience, even a summer-campish one, and a connection to your people's homeland, or is it just depressing for Jews? I know which way I suspect.

Actually, there's a lot of gain to be made in discussing moral equivalence. Israel does not engage in indiscriminate attacks against civilians. To say otherwise is to knowingly, deliberately lie. The statistics don't lie: the vast majority of Palestinians killed by the IDF are military-aged males. Israel routinely uses only the smallest fraction of the destructive power at her command when attacking Palestinian terrorists. The vast majority of Israelis killed by Palestinians are civilians, not soldiers. The Palestinians routinely invent new ways to put greater quantities of more deadly shrapnel into their rockets and bomb belts that they then fire indiscriminately at civilian areas or blow up in civilian areas.

"If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?"

Well gee, I guess since in Yemen and Pakistan those camps train people to carry out missions of mass murder, yes.

Maybe Mr. Holehouse just thinks that going to summer camp to get sex is a crime. Or maybe he's an anti-semite. Or maybe he's both. The two latter are the way I'm leaning. The article is just shit. Period. The New Statesman should be ashamed of this garbage.

chaos
05 September 2007 at 03:48

Last paragraph should have read "...Or maybe he's an anti-semite. Or maybe he's an idiot. Or maybe both..." everyone makes mistakes! =D

Odin88
05 September 2007 at 04:38

The New Statesman is an anti-Semitic rag. Remember the "Kosher Conspiracy" cover a couple years back?

Disgusting neo-Nazis.

khara
05 September 2007 at 05:12

Mr. Holehouse, you answer your own question:

what is he difference then between your SAS young fightes and the Hamas "patriots" that are "saving" their so-called country by blowing themselves up?

you are an arse of a person and I will not adresse you as Sir

Doron
05 September 2007 at 06:47

Dear New Statesman,

As an Jewish individual, I read this article and am appalled by its obvious twisted overtones. To compare these camps with terrorist camps is like comparing the boy scouts with Hitler youth. The obvious end goal is to demonize Israel, demonize Jewish people in Israel, demonize British Jews who participate in this program, and demonize Jews. This article actually implies arresting these children 'at the airport'. I call on you to remove and retract this article due to its offensive nature. Take a stand: It is time that the rampant anti-semitic virus that seems to be plaguing the United Kingdom is addressed.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 07:36

Do people in Britain consider 18 year olds "children" or even members of Youth Organizations who are 16 and 17 years of age?

If so, perhaps Britons should re-consider their view of what constitutes being a child, a youth and a young adult.

And, yound adults coming to serve in the defence of their people's nation-state - the Jewish state of Israel - may really be compared to those sent to explode themselves in the midst of coffee shops, city buses and shopping centers, both in terms of values and the nature of their deeds?

How low have some British reporters and commentators brought themselves, all with the full intention of demonize everything Israel and all in the process of de-legitimize its very being??!!

Vardit
05 September 2007 at 08:36

The author's comparison is ludicrous. British Jews are not trained to kill people for example simply because they are Muslims. and.. if these young folks one day decide to stay in Israel and belong to the army, they will DEFEND Israel, not shoot innocent Muslim civilians because they feel like it. They will, however one day, should they decide to become Israelis know how to use a gun and go after the terrorists that DO shoot civilians simply because they, the terrorists hate.

Eric
05 September 2007 at 08:37

This article is not based on fact. My guess is that it is the result of poor research (and without an attempt at depth).

Even more important, the article is an example of what too many people today believe is the right thing to do because to say otherwise would be perceived as unfair. And that is to make every attempt at equating all peoples of the world to hold the same values of life, freedom, independence, and education. These values are not held in the same way, and in this specific case to the very core of the 'value' of a life.

It's because of published articles like this that seek to 'equate', that the problems we are all seeing and experiencing today in the world will only escalate over the next years.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 09:56

The trouble is that whenever anyone criticises Israel - the high civilian death toll it causes among its Arab neighbours or its human rights record - they are instantly branded anti-Semitic. So we can't have proper debate about it. Plus as soon as any article remotely critical of Israel is published there is a concerted effort to undermine the author, the publisher and that is profoundly undemocratic - to stamp on opposition. If you disagree with someone's point of view have confidence enough in your own to let them have enough rope to hang themselves. The way people have reacted to Holehouse's article suggests many of the angry commentors thing he has a point!

Having said that it is wrong to tar all Israeli citizens with the same brush as often happens too with America because of its extremist government under Bush!

Henricanan
05 September 2007 at 09:59

Is it possible to have such an illiterate journalist in your ranks?

To compare young Jews who are educated to enjoy the life to young Muslims who are educated to cherish the death and to give it the others, no matter they are is simply foolish, stupid.

Is there any editor here ?

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 10:02

QED.

http://www.honestreporting.co.uk/articles/critiques/new/New_...

Joe Feld
05 September 2007 at 10:23

Many top British schools have a Combined cadet Corps and many top American universiies have an ROTC or officer training corps. The summer schemes in israel are akin to these type of programmes, and in no way comparable to camps training suicide bombers to be sent back to blow up non-Muslims. It's hard to imagine how the writer could make such a comparison.

ndt
05 September 2007 at 10:29

This article is completely laughable.

To compare a camp in Israel that teaches the importance to love and defend your country, against a palestinian camp that teaches kids to attack and kill as many innocent civillians as possible...I just honestly dont see the connection.

And judging by the comments it seems you may have stretched this one a bit too far.

Antiochean
05 September 2007 at 10:35

I am utterly appalled by the anti-Semitism and lack of understanding that in equal measure make this article what it is.

Rick Gil
05 September 2007 at 10:39

If this article were not so scandalous it would be laughable. To compare a summer camp the purpose of which is to show teen-agers a bit of Israeli life is blatently biased and ignorant. Perhaps the author should compare CCF at British Public Schools, in which we were obliged to take part as teen-agers, with Arab hate-camps as well. Both are military in nature and both make use of weapons training.

The picture in the you-tube site which, for me, epitomises the whole proramme is of a girl in her fatigues just touching the Westrn Wall of the Temple mount in Jerusalem, the eternal, universal symbol of peace.

As a former FZY member now living in Israel, I am proud of that organisation which brings so many young people to learn about Israel and their Jewish heritage and if that makes FZY "hard line" that is an excellent recomendation for the group..

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 10:50

I wonder, is this article a good representative of the well respected New Statesman?

Perhaps it is time to have a bit less respect for this periodical for "thinking people"?

Rick Gil
05 September 2007 at 10:52

Colonel Blimp wrote: "I knew an Israeli girl once. My what beauties!"

Does this smutty, sexist remark belong in a serious debate? Or maybe it reflects the shabbyness of the article under discussion!

benjaminfinger
05 September 2007 at 11:21

Robert Powell - sinking to throwing insults as you have done merely leads me, and everyone else to conclude that you are 11years old and therefore you undermine any point you are trying to make.

It is ashame that in a mature dialogue someone always has to debase in order to counter an intellectual point. By resorting to insults you have only proven that you have no legitimate argument to refute my own.

Nil point, stay in school.

Robert Powell
05 September 2007 at 11:45

I blew your stupid hysterical point out of the water. Mature dialogue benjaminfinger? Not when you're involved!

scorpionking
05 September 2007 at 11:58

Try, once, to get one thing right, O perfidious Albion.

If Americans of British heritage came "home" and enlisted in the Royal Marine Auxilliary, training (including in how to fire accurately from the prone position) to guard ammo dumps and walk sentry posts at bases, freeing a few dozen real troops for more substantive tasks, you'd have a more precise analogy.

And no, Cornwallis, you wouldn't arrest them at the aitport.

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 12:01

"Does this smutty, sexist remark belong in a serious debate? Or maybe it reflects the shabbyness of the article under discussion!"

What's rattled your cage Mr. Gil? When he rattles the gilded cage, perhaps Mr. Gil will think of the captive child, the little Palestinian girl, Iman al-Hams, caught and killed by an IDF soldier in October 2004.

http://ifamericansonlyknew.org/cur_sit/child-killed.html

This is a very serious debate. Defend her capitivity and the defence of Israel ... if you will Mr. Gil ... and I feel sure you will.

PS. Iman al-Hams was not alone in her captivity in an Israeli cage and her cruel murder by the forces who defend Israel. Hundreds of other Palestinian children have been slaughtered by the Israeli army - 118 were killed in 2004 alone, 952 since September 2000. Please tell me why, Mr. Gil?

rudz
05 September 2007 at 12:22

The Newstatesman should release a statement soon regarding this article.

Personally I call on the editor to resign.

chaos
05 September 2007 at 12:27

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Hams

Sounds like a tragedy that happens in war as a result of poor individual leadership of a unit, not institutional malice.

952 dead children? Why is that figure so much higher than any one given out by agencies with some credibility? Why does that number drop precipitously from around 600 (not 952) when you remove military-aged (14-18) males?

If Americans only knew... Americans do know. That's why they support Israel. Pushing the Jews into the sea's just going to have to wait another few decades. It must be infuriating.

amba
05 September 2007 at 12:27

"The trouble is that whenever anyone criticises Israel - the high civilian death toll it causes among its Arab neighbours or its human rights record - they are instantly branded anti-Semitic." - Tom Paine.

This is nonsense. When somebody highlights Israel's human rights record, and fails to mention the human rights record of the other side of the conflict, and so selectively uses information to demonise Israel, then some people start using the word antisemitic. When someone makes a valid point about Israel's human rights record, they rarely claim that Israel is a military machine with the sole purpose of killing Arabs. They make accurate comments backed up by evidence from a reliable source.

What people like Cybertiger here do, is to selectively abuse information from questionable sources to portray Israel as intentionally targeting civilians. This is their only hope in convincing people that the IDF are morally equivalent to terrorists, and is what lies at the absolute heart of this conflict. Unfortunately for people like him, it will always be the case that the Israeli army tries its utmost to limit civilian casualties, and Hamas etc. try their utmost to cause civilian casualties.

And one last thing Cybertiger, the difference between Israel and terrorists is that when you name a child killed by the army, we are deeply saddened and upset that someone so young would be caught up in this conflict. When we name a child killed by a terrorist, other terrorists couldn't be happier with their success. They achieved their stated aim, we most definitely did not. We made a huge and terrible mistake. This is the difference between us.

IrritatedofTonbridge
05 September 2007 at 12:32

Well if the civilian deaths aren't deliberate (say 10 Arabs for one Israeli) then there is an suspicious level of collateral damage!

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 12:54

"The trouble is that whenever anyone criticizes Israel - the high civilian death toll it causes among its Arab neighbors or its human rights record - they are instantly branded anti-Semitic." - Tom Paine.

Israel's size is that of Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey, populated by nearly seven million people, 20% of whom are Arabs, citizens of the state of Israel. When some choose to be obsessed with being critical of every aspect of this liberal democracy and use language and style that demonizes and de-legitimizes Israel the question is asked: Why?

Israel is probably the most important national institution of the Jewish people, during the 20th and 21st centuries, and since being bluntly anti-Semitic is still not political correct only three generations after the Jewish holocaust, attacking the closest thing to this people and its sense of peoplehood is a substitute, hence attacking the Jewish state of Israel becomes a convenient substitute.

These attacks have nothing to do with the defence of human rights, demonstrated by the attacks or lack thereof of the Arab country of Lebanon when its army puts down the Islamists within its midst using brute force; or the degree to which the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of Muslims are being slaughtered by their own Arab brothers, be it in Darfur, Algeria, Syria or Iraq; or the enslavement of millions of Arabs by Arabs in Saudi Arabia, Yemen and the rest of the Gulf states; or even the attitude of Europe towards the other in its own back yard, the Roma of Europe, both in eastern Europe and in its west.

The situation here, in Israel, is unique in that this is the only place where Jews have their own state hence the constant attacks at it. And when a people, the Jewish people, a race really is singled out to be constantly attacked it is a form of racism, anti-Jewish racism in this case.

This article is yet another link in a long chain of such expressions, produced primarily by the left in Britain, the same circles that can be described as neo-Socialists, those attempting to harmonize between supposed Socialism, Islamism and/or anti-Jewish racism.

Robert Powell
05 September 2007 at 12:56

Yes I'm sure he gives a crap Rudz.

DMJ39
05 September 2007 at 12:59

Mr Holehouse draws our attention to an important issue, namely that young British Jews are offered the chance to train with the Israeli army. This is an army engaged in an illegal occupation, that protects Jewish settlers at the expense of the indigenous inhabitants, and disregards the Geneva conventions, brought in to protect vulnerable civilians. To put matters in context, in the past 3 years, this army of occupation has killed 1080 Palestinians, while 41 Israelis have been killed in the conflict, a 26 to 1 kill ratio. During the past three years the Israeli army have killed 237 Palestinian minors, 7 Israeli children have been killed. No Israeli soldier has ever been held to account for killing a child. Clearly what we are looking at is asymmetrical warfare of the most brutal kind. This army of occupation has also killed three unarmed British people, Tom Hurndall, James Miller and Ian Hook.

But the young British Jews who go there are encouraged to 'be ambassadors' for the 'misunderstood' IDF. If the quality of their debate on this blog is anything to go by, the Israeli army mission has comprehensively failed.

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 13:07

chaos, incredibly and chaotically stated,

"952 dead children? Why is that figure so much higher than any one given out by agencies with some credibility?

Please link to these credible sources on the fall of the 600 ... and the precipitous drop of 14-18 military aged children.

PS. I'm always intrigued how it is not possible to buy an alcoholic drink in the Fatherland (the US) until the age of 21 but it is possible to suffer the death penalty for youthful mistakes at a younger age. Of course, the 51st state of the blessed union of malevolent states does not exact a death penalty - but simply exacts a run of extra-judicial executions on militant male 14-18 year-olds. The rest, of course, are childish mistakes, mere unfortunate collateral in the bid to defend the Jewish homeland and prevent the Zionists from being pushed into the Dead Sea.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 13:10

Rubbish Nadav. It is perfectly legitimate to criticise Israel's foreign policy - in the same way it is perfectly legitimate to criticise Britain's and America's at the moment. The liberal ideal of Israel that you choose to portray is long gone if it ever existed. For the record I support the existence of Israel - what I don't support is its government/military's total disdain for human rights in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere. I totally condemn suicide bombings where civilians are targeted. Equally I totally condemn the murder of civilians by the IDF. If you talk to people in the Jewish community in London, for example, you will find plenty of voices opposing that barbarity!

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 13:28

"For the record I support the existence of Israel ... "

I too, strongly supported the existence of the State of Israel. I now realise that the United Nations made a terrible mistake in 1947. With the deaths of so many children like the 13 year old Palestinian schoolgirl Iman al-Hams, I believe that that right to exist is forfeit. It is now high time for the United Nations to think again about a final solution to the problem of Palestine.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 13:39

Actually Tom, Nadav was highlighting the disproportionate amount of criticism Israel receives.

You criticise the government's disdain for human rights in Gaza. Are you talking about Hamas or the Israeli government. You see if you were to criticise Israel more than Hamas in regards to human rights in Gaza, then this could well be seen as a disproportionate criticism towards Israel.

Israel withdrew from Gaza in August 2005, so that the Palestinians could create an autonomous entity as a 1st step to peace. Gaza became a hotbed of terrorism and Hamas are now in power. Did you know on Monday Hamas fired 4 rockets into a Sderot Kindergarten. Since then Israel has responded by trying to hunt down these terrorists. These terrorists then hide amongst the civilian population and Israel are therefore faced with a catch 22 situation, where ultimately innocent civilians will regrettably be caught up in gorilla warfare. This happenened in Afghanistand and Kosovo when the British went to war- but yet no one says anything, but they criticise Israel. One wonders why it is Israel that receives this obsessive disproportionate criticism.

Human Rights Watch recently criticised Hezbollah for its use of human shields during the Lebanon War.

Ofcourse Israel isn't perfect, it makes mistakes and its governments have often been incompotent, however people are so obsessed by Israel, the Jewish state, they fail to notice it is no worse than many other states.

4 million people are dying of starvation in Zimbabwe along with the 3 million which have already fled the country and all people can do is sit and criticise Israel!

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 13:54

Tom Paine, For your information Israel is a liberal democracy in every way possible and this is not "rubbish" as you call it. I suspect you really don't know this country first hand to refer to it in such a way. And as liberal democracy Israel does have challenges to overcome, but how much time does the media spends on Israel by comparison to Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey? How much printed space do newspapers use on Israel by comparison to these three states of very similar size both in terms of physical geography and demography? It is this disproportionate approach to Israel's perceived short comings and the language used, including the language you use, e.g. "I totally condemn the murder of civilians by the IDF" (show me a single case in which the Israel Defence Forces was involved in murder! And, incidentally, check the word "murder" in your dictionary please) that suggests to me that something else is at plays. I choose to describe this something else anti-Jewish racism. I am sorry if I offend you by using your approach as such. But I would like to ask you, how many posts have you written to any site regarding the on-going slavery of millions in the Arab world? How many posts have you composed regarding the mass murder of hundreds of thousands of human beings in Algeria? Or, how many letters to the editor have you sent regarding the expulsion of millions and the murder of hundreds of thousands of Africans by the Arabs of the Sudan?

I look forward to read your answers to these questions before you describe my words as "rubbish"!

chaimgreen
05 September 2007 at 14:02

ohh mathew bubi, isn't all this a little silly? what next? yeshiva students inciting racial hatred? kibbutznikim depleting uranium? Seems a little desperate don't you think? But Mathew you are a good writer you have a great style and tone. I think we all agree that your are more suited to fiction though.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 14:04

I wrote: "What I don't support is its government/military's total disdain for human rights in Gaza, Lebanon and elsewhere." I'm aware of the timing - and as I made clear I oppose inhumane actions by all sides. Britain is frequently singled out for criticism but what perhaps sharpens the criticism of Israel is its continued flouting of international law.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 14:17

It's not a very good comparison Nadav, is it? Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey! That might just account for the difference in coverage...

Murder in English law requires the Actus Reus and the Mens Rea. The act and the intention - in this case intention means intending serious injury. Oh and I didn't have to look that up. Plenty of cases within this definition - even if the system deliberately fails to bring people to justice. Oh and the something you refer to you call racism - sometime you may be right - but equally it's an easy claim for you to make whenever you are on your backfoot morally speaking. Have I first hand experience of Israel. Well I'm tempted to say you don't have to fall off a cliff to know it hurts but actually the answer is yes. Been there many times - though not in the past eight years. I'm anti-apartheid you see.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 14:18

Tom Paine, I asked you to back up your words. Can you? I also asked you to demonstrate to us here the number of times you actually expressed yourself in writing, as you do it about Israel, regarding a phenomenon called slavery that has been on-going for many decades against international law. I asked you to share with us your writing about your objection to mass murders, the violation of the very first of human rights, the right to live. You have done nothing of the above, but you keep writing about a conflict that began when, against UN resolution, the entire Arab world set out to annihilate the tiny Jewish state of Israel and yes, throw the Jews into the sea, and what we presently see is a continuation of this objection to UN resolutions by the Arab world expressed through the attempted mass murder of Jews on a daily basis. If your criticism is not anti-Jewish racism, what is racism, Sir?

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 14:29

Tom Paine, show me a single case, once again, in which the Israel Defence Forces set out to kill and deliberately end the life of innocent people, please show me a single such case, and if you can not, please, don't call our young men and women guarding our very lives murderers!

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 14:40

Rachel Corey, Tom Hurndall, Iman al-Hams. And as for your irrelevant call for my 'writings' about slavery. It just shows how weak your case, how paranoid your mind. Deal with facts Nadav relevant in this case. Accept the failings of your country and you might just begin to rebuild the bridges Yigal Amir burnt.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 14:57

The examples you have given do not equate to the IDF nor the Israeli government as an institution directly ordering its troops to kill innocent civilians.

In those three cases it was actually an individual IDF solider being carried away in bloodless violence and in all cases there has been a vigorous IDF investigation into those deaths. The killing of Tom Hurndall was carried out by an Arab Bedouin who enjoys full equal rights in Israel, which contradicts your apartheid claim.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 15:00

Tom Paine, murder to the best of my knowledge is characterized by the deliberation or premeditation of killing of innocent people. None of the names you mentioned can be characterized as murders, deaths, yes, but not murders! So, once again, stop using this term when it comes to the women and men protecting the lives of civilians who are being targeted daily to be mass murdered!

As for me asking you to illustrate to us or simply tell us how much effort you have spent on the violation of primary human rights – mass murder, genocide really, on-going slavery, etc. – in the very same region of the Middle East and North Africa in which Israel is located is not an illustration of the weakness of my argument; instead it is actually an illustration that you are willing to be critical of tiny, but Jewish, Israel and to spend writing about it, but you spend no time on major violations of human rights in our region, and that is only due to the fact that Israel is a Jewish state. Because if it were not Jewish, you would care less about the Palestinian Arabs, as much as you have cared over the past hundred years about the right of the Kurdish people to national self-determination – ZERO!

And when you or anyone else singles out a people in such a way, especially a small people as the Jewish people is, especially within the larger context of the whole Arab region, one can only be described as singling out a race, and that is racism, anti-Jewish racism in this case!

P.S. Mr. Paine, I must say, however, you are in good company. The Guardian, the London Review of Books and the New Statesman are all behind you in singling out the Jewish people and its nation-state, the Jewish state of Israel, for disproportionate criticism, for anti-Jewish racism as part of the wave of neo-Socialism swiping the "enlightened" and "progressive" circles in the UK.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 15:01

Please come up with an example as Nadav Katz as asked you which shows 'the Israel Defence Force set out to kill and deliberately end the life of innocent people.'

You explained in legal terms murder. Those examples you have given do not make the IDF culpable of murder.

tom k
05 September 2007 at 15:01

i cant believe i spent half an hour approximately of my time reading this rubbish.

What this journalist fails to understand, is that the Jews, came to England and blended in with society... Yes, there is a large number of Jews who are extremely religious and dont entirely conform to all of this country's laws, but they do wake up every morning and go to work. They do pay all their taxes every year. They do vote when it comes around to election time.

This is because they have been accepted into this country and therefore accept its rules. They dont go marching on the street everytime there is something they disagree about or go around shouting.. 'We will kill anyone who doesnt think what we think'. They have blended into society. The Israeli MILITARY (note i say military and not armed civilians) does not pick random targets and just bomb the place. They strategically pin-point each target accepting that there might be a few civilian casualties, but it is necessary to attack these places at certain times to ensure that the terrorists hiding in these place are stopped. And they are not just stopping them from attacking Israel, but from any other democratic country in the world. Israel has been put in a position where they have no choice but to defend themselves, not attack.

The kids on these 'training camps' are not being taught to kill, but rather to defend. And they will only defend when they are forced to. Only when they are being attacked.

if you want to join Marva, you dont have to go about it in secret or be invited. But you do have to do this with the 'training camps' in these other middle eastern countries. This is because they know what they are doing is wrong. They know it is illegal. They know, that what they are doing is training people to minimize the the rest of the world, the people who dont have the same beliefs as them.

The point I am trying to make, is that it is very easy to compare things and find similarities. But unless you actually know about both sides of the fence, you cannot give a fair argument.

Of course some of you are probably going to fight back against what i have just written. And of course, i would love it if you did. It would mean i learn more. But please do so with consideration. Don't just write the first thing that comes into your head. Don't write with frustration as to what I have written.

Think carefully and then reply.

SHANA TOVA to you all

xxx

rudz
05 September 2007 at 15:06

Tom Paine you say your anti-apartheid so you haven't been to Israel in the last 8 years. Only in the last 8 years have areas of the West Bank and Gaza gained their own autonomy and have been able to vote in elections.

I think you have your history a bit muddled up.

Eric Carter
05 September 2007 at 15:07

LOL. What a retarded article.

tom k
05 September 2007 at 15:18

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30200-1282791,00.html

This is the latest news on the thwarted bomb attacks.

Suprise Suprise... they were trained in Pakistan

And Suprise Suprise, they converted to Islam.

I am not a racist, i am not a prejudice person. But i have been known to be a statistical person.

Et Voila...more statistics for you guys

And a quote from a Queen song - 'Open your eyes and see'!!!

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 15:22

Maybe not according to your corrupt legal authorities Rudz. Heard of the wall Rudz or two-tier citizenship? Oh and Nadav, you know nothing about law! The intention to do serious harm to Tom Hurndall or the others would satisfy the accusation of murder in most jurisdictions. He was taken out. It is not only jews that can be murdered. The racism you speak of is in your own heart against goys! Incidentally you have no way of knowing what I have or haven't done politically about oppression of Kurds or other people around the world. ANOTHER example of your muddle between fact and prejudice. For god's sake put your energy to good use! You talk about neo-socialism. What about neo-fascism? You ever use the word transportation?

olesker
05 September 2007 at 15:30

I'm not sure, from the tone of his comment, if Mr. Holehouse wouldn't be equally "depressed" by British kids participating in an equivalent program sponsored by the British army.

Aside from the casual and insupportable moral equivalence ("which side's indiscriminate attacks on civilians") the article doesn't seem to attempt a moral analysis, so much as an aesthetic one (guns = yuky).

Can't a serious journalist in a serious magazine do better than that?

Rick Gil
05 September 2007 at 15:35

Cybertiger wrote: "When he rattles the gilded cage, perhaps Mr. Gil will think of the captive child, the little Palestinian girl, Iman al-Hams, caught and killed by an IDF soldier in October 2004. "

Ore pehaps Cybertiger will think of my nieghbours Rachel Thaler, Nechemia Amar and other teen-agers who were deliberately murdered by an Islamo-fascist while celebrating a birthday. Or my friends and neighbours T'chiya Blumberg who was murdered and her husband Steve, and daughter Zippy who are now wheelchair bound after their car was shot up on the way home. Or the Israeli children who were shot at close range together with their mother.

No sir, I will not defend the deliberate, wrongful killing of children or adults by anyone. But the difference is that the Israeli officer stands accused of killing Imam al-Hams and is being tried while the Islamo-fascists glorify death and turn their murderers into martyrs.

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 15:53

Tom Paine, the word "goy" is a Hebrew word, a very ancient word, and believe it or not but I am a member of a "goy" a Jewish "goy". You see I am a proud member of a people which is the meaning of the word "goy", a people, and I am a proud member of the Jewish people.

Furthermore, I am a great supporter of the right of all peoples, including the Jewish people, to national self-determination. Does that make me a racist, Sir?

You are right, I have no way of knowing what you have or have not done politically, which is why I keep asking you to share it with us, but for some reason you prefer not to tell us what you have done in the promotion of the right of people to live in the Middle East and North Africa, and you prefer not to share with us what you have done or written about the on-going slavery of million of people in the same region. But we do know that you prefer to accuse Israelis of murder when there is no evidence to it, and you do prefer to write about "the wall", the security fence that has saved the very lives of hundreds if not thousands, although these were only the lives of those subhuman beings, Jews.

But once again, rest assured, your friends at the Guardian, the London Review of Books and the New Statesman appreciate your approach to life in our region – they also differentiate between bloods.

Tom Paine
05 September 2007 at 16:07

Nadav, Don't you think I'd know the meaning of the word goy before using it? That it is used to refer to gentiles? How dare you imply I think Jews are subhuman! How dare you cast such aspersions. You're a disgrace. It is you who differentiates between 'bloods' - what is this strange phrase? You are the racist! And, quite seriously, you must seek help for your paranoid delusions before it's too late!

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 16:23

Tom Paine, "bloods" is a direct translation from the Hebrew, my native tongue, meaning the blood of different people or peoples hence the "s" is added to the word blood. Perhaps even a Hebrew speaking Jew can add to the richness of the English language. As for whether or not you differentiate between the blood of Jews and Arabs, I suspect you do if you have problems with the fact that we, Jews, use certain tools to protect our lives, e.g. the security fence, with which you appear to have a problem, or if you have difficulties with the fact that we send our young men and women to capture active terror gangsters and if necessary kill them for the sake of protecting the lives of our toddlers, our school age girls and boys who are prime targets of those terror gangsters.

rudz
05 September 2007 at 16:33

Tom- what's my corrupt legal authorities?

I don't think you find governments going on trial when a soldier is court martialled, nor do you when a civilian goes to trial? My corrupt legal view is compatible with the legal norms of the rest of the world.

Have I heard of the wall? Yes I have, but only from anti-Israel propoganda. There is a security fence which stretches across the green-line of which something like 5% is a wall. In fact the fence was

altered two days ago after the supreme court of Israel said it infringed on the rights of certain citizens in a small village. Israel contains an independent judiciary which uphelds the rights of the all the citizens of Israel and even those living outside its borders e.g. in the Palestinian territories. Apartheid South Africa did not contain an independent judiciary which upheld the righs of all its citizens regardless of race or colour, therefore debunking any comparison with an apartheid. You'll actually find post-apartheid South Africa actually has a fence (far larger than Israel's) seperating it from its neighbouring country Zimbabwe.

Also this two-tier citizenship you talk of is a myth. I will once again have great pleasure in refuting any facts you come up with.

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 16:56

@Rick Gil

"Ore pehaps Cybertiger will think of my nieghbours Rachel Thaler, Nechemia Amar and other teen-agers who were deliberately murdered by an Islamo-fascist while celebrating a birthday."

http://www.rememberthesechildren.org/remember2004.html

You didn't answer my question, Rick! Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004? Was it for vengeance, to avenge the deaths of your teenage friends at the hand of the Islamofascist - or for other reasons too?

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 17:06

"Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004?" This is a perfect example of anti-Jewish racists. Who is claiming that children were DELIBERATELY MURDERED? Who is proving that children were DELIBERATELY MURDERED? This is in short a present day blood libel with which anti-Jewish racists specialize, as did anti-Semites of yesteryear. And when this nonsense is repeated over and over again and spread around as "information" it becomes information, withoutout any basis in reality.

We Jews, collectively, have been exposed to this technique for centuries. And we know when we see the same technique being used again.

speegster
05 September 2007 at 17:58

Hey Cybertiger (and to a lesser extent, Tom Paine) - can I have a very simple yes or no to the following question, just to scratch an itch, I guess:

Have you ever been to Israel, Gaza and/or the West Bank?

RedDaybreak
05 September 2007 at 18:07

Crikey! This is like a feeding frenzy! I hope I don't get gnawed for saying this but isn't the problem with this whole debate that - like most things in life - the situation isn't black and white but rather shades of grey? So the idea that Israel can do no wrong - implicit in some of the increasingly hysterical contributions - is no more correct than the Palestinians have only done right...

I do wish people could live in peace but all the dreadful finger pointing/denials that always accompany this issue rather suggests it's unfeasible.

Admitting your failings can actually make you stronger - and make people give you credit for your successes!

The article is provocative but it's not as poisonous as some of these comments...

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 18:25

@speegster

"Have you ever been to Israel, Gaza and/or the West Bank?"

Yes, and I hope that relieves your itch - but I rather doubt it will.

PS. I think I answered that question in another PS. contribution on the other endless thread on the murderous failings of the Zionist entity. I'll look it out and repost it for your edification.

PPS. love the name speegster. How did you derive it?

PPPS. An Islamofascist lobs a qassam from Gaza at somewhere in Israel and per chance an Israeli teenager is killed. This is deliberate murder - but when an Israeli IDF officer empties his pistol into an injured Palestinian girl on the ground - it isn't murder and it isn't deliberate. And to suggest otherwise is a blood libel against the Jews. Interesting!

Cybertiger
05 September 2007 at 18:32

For your edification speegster - from the thread "An important marker has been passed" by John Pilger

"Cybertiger

02 September 2007

PS. I did go to Israel in 1980. I slept on the beach by the Sea of Gallilee, I visited a kibbutz near Kiryat Shmona. I swam in the Dead Sea, climbed Masada and snorkelled in the Red Sea near Eilat. I saw Jerusalem, Jaffa, Nazareth and stayed in Haifa. I travelled through Gaza and on overland to Cairo and later flew back to Tel Aviv on Nefertiti airlines. Israel seemed a country that all people could be proud of; no more. There is no respect to be gained by shooting Palestinian children. I will never return to Israel."

How's the itch now?

Amihai
05 September 2007 at 19:51

"Murderous failings of the Zionist entity" is the term our co-poster, Cybertiger, uses in one of its posts. One may say, well, what an innocent expression. But actually, this expression conveys a number of matters:

1. The reference here is of course to the Jewish state of Israel, but since it is difficult for some to even express the term Israel, let alone recognize it as a state, and not just any state but the state of a people, this hated people, the nation-state of the Jewish people, hence the substitute – the Zionist entity.

2. And for all those who try to claim that their predicament is with Zionism and not with the Jewish people, note the implicit connection that this poster makes between the two – while demonizing the "Zionist entity" actually meaning the people whose entity this Zionist product is, the nation-state of the Jewish people.

3. And the way this entity is described by this poster is by referring to it as "murderous", as if the Jewish state of Israel is responsible for murders – and what is this if not part of the systematic demonizing of the Jewish state of Israel, attempting to de-legitimize it, and knowingly spreading a blood libel about it and by extension of course about its people, the Jewish people.

An innocent expression, but when repeated over and over again amounts to an anti-Jewish racism, no more and mo less!

Fellow posters, Jews and non-Jews alike, please do take a note of it.

srf
05 September 2007 at 20:03

I really cannot believe that someone can write an article so far away from truth, and I cannot conceive that anybody would believe this is true. This is the perfect example of the manipulation that takes place within the media, taking an image and converting it into something horrifying. I am sure, any person with the slightest bit of intelligence would be able to see far beyond the lies told in this article.

Robert Powell
05 September 2007 at 20:19

And I cannot believe that someone as mad as Nadav Katz is allowed to walk the streets - or are you posting your paranoia from the asylum?

Pierre
05 September 2007 at 21:23

Based on the conduct of the Palestinian jews if you are not an anti-semite you are missing some critical genes.

Yonatan
05 September 2007 at 21:42

I'm really not sure this article is worthy of comment. It was written by a nineteen year-old upstart at Oxford University, whose journalistic credentials are nil, and whose capacity to construct an argument reflects the fact that he was only quite recently toilet-trained. This is puerile, pathetic, unsubstantiated nonsense.

Achmed
05 September 2007 at 22:05

ppppffffffff......hilarious!!!! what a load of utter unsubstantiated nonsense...whoever wrote this should be writing commercials-NOT articles....what an anti Israeli slant...how many jewish/british or otherwise suicide bombers have been trained in these camps???

Pierre
05 September 2007 at 22:20

How many suicide bombers would there be if their land had not been stolen?

Not-Ashkenatzi
06 September 2007 at 01:33

These proud children of “Israel” (be it Ashke-nazi • Sephardi • Mizrahi) won’t just be defending the initial “promised land” they would also “defend” Sarkozi’s France, the “Greater Golders Green,” the whole of Iberia… shall we say the whole planet?

Yes, they would protect and defend the entire world from "terrorism;" bring law and justice to the international community; unify and globalize the world; eliminate usury; provide food and shelter for everyone; eradicate racism; remove boarders and (walls); promote brotherhood and equality, but only after they have killed all of the world’s “terrorists.”

rudz
06 September 2007 at 02:01

Pierre the land was not stolen. The State of Israel was created after the British mandate in Palestine had finished and the UN voted on new state being called Israel. Therefore the answer to your question is a lot, there are a lot of suicide bombers in land which isn't stolen.

louismfried
06 September 2007 at 04:18

More anti-semitic trash from the "current affairs " newspaper that previously uncovered the "kosher conspiracy". The late publishers of Der Steurmer would have enjoyed Holehouse's spurious comparisons contained in his pathetic diatribe.

Louis M. Fried

Barrister

Concord, Ontario, Canada

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 05:54

Robert Powell: "And I cannot believe that someone as mad as Nadav Katz is allowed to walk the streets - or are you posting your paranoia from the asylum?" No, Mr. Powell, I post from my residence at the capital city of the Jewish state of Israel, Jerusalem. Now that we have cleared this geographic question, could you be a bit more specific about the reasons for making your accusation? I look forward to clarify for you all that is within my ability to do, knowing full well that so many opinions by some people abroad are based on non-facts and misunderstandings of reality. Perhaps you too can be helped.

Cybertiger
06 September 2007 at 09:06

@Robert Powell

"And I cannot believe that someone as mad as Nadav Katz is allowed to walk the streets ...

Methinks Mr. Katz may be a plump Jewish cuckoo who refuses to fly the nest.

Olivia
06 September 2007 at 09:10

To suggest that the Israeli government shows double-standards by condemning Palestinian training camps, whilst allowing and promoting the Marva scheme is ludicrous and to suggest an equivalence between Marva and terrorist training camps in Pakistan is equally ill-informed.

These British teenagers are getting an experience of life in the Israel Defence Force (note the word "Defence"), which unfortunately is the reality of life in Israel.

Do we see scenes of British Jewish mothers at Heathrow airport wringing their hands , ululating and telling their children to shed the blood of their enemy while they are on their summer hols'? No! You are more likely to see a Jewish Mother reminding her son to wear sun tan lotion, drink plenty of water and above all to remember to call home!

I don't think Marva is a particularly commendable way to spend a summer holiday, but it is not a sinister training camp for home-grown terrorism. These kids come home after their Marva experience, go off to university and become lawyers, accountants and doctors and might occasionally reminisce about the summer they spent in the Israeli army. They don't come home, planning to bomb British airports or nightclubs!

D Berke
06 September 2007 at 09:24

Sirs,

Some years ago, I took part in the IDF program, Marva.

The purpose of the program is to give young Jews living in the diasporah a taste of the life which our fellow Jews are required to live as a result of the situation in the Middle East .

During the program I was not taught to hate, I was not told how to think, I was asked to do a lot of press ups and I was assured it was about a tenth as many as other young men my age were required to do.

I was not taught how to make bombs, or where to detonate myself to cause maximum casualties. I was not taught how to carry out random knife attacks on civilians. I was not taught to kill.

On my return to the UK , I was not told to carry out any mission or to wait for orders, nor was I supplied with weapons and asked to join a cell. I did not come back with a sense that violence solved anything.

Rather I was left feeling exhausted with a a small understanding from a short tourist program, what my kin go through in order to protect their families and country.

Perhaps you can speak to a young man who has attended a Jihadi training camp who can give the assurances I give above?

Daniel Berke

Robert Powell
06 September 2007 at 09:25

Yes Nadav we'd already gathered where you live - you are Israeli in the same way Julian Clary is homosexual: you have no other conversation! Living in Jerusalem, do you find that you are occasionally put in a white garment that restricts your arm movements when you start using the words 'blood libel'?

arbaminim
06 September 2007 at 09:27

Todays Daily telegraph (6th Sept) has an article written by Sophie Borland & Toby Helm about a "Tory 'National Service camp' plan" in which it claims that David Cameron will announce today plans for a National Service style holiday camp for all 16 year olds...'which would see youngsters undertaking military style training, and charity work'. Hang on, I have read about this in the New Statesman ! Surely this is a mistake. This is what the Israelis get up to - training their youngsters to be terrorists. (Mind you - how many Israeli terrorists have planned, plotted or carried out suicide attacks on anybody anywhere in the World - and how many Islamic terrorists have ?)So - back to the Daily telegraph - Where is this hotbed of revolution and terrorist training ? Not in Israel but in England !!!

But then, Israel bashing is the name of the game !!

Dorothy
06 September 2007 at 10:25

To Benjaminfinger regarding propaganda: Israeli children from nursery school onward are raised to worship militarism and the military. This involves taking them on class trips to military museums, sending soldiers (rather than the 80,000 poor elderly holocaust survivors who are starving in Israel) goodies on various holidays, and slews of other techniques to keep Israel militaristic. This is not, as some talk-backers seem to believe, because Israel is suffering from its neighbors. Rather Israel is the 4th major military power in the world, and uses that power to oppress Palestinians, and kills not only them (this past year alone the IOF--Israel Occupation Army--killed over 600 Palestinians) but also over 1000 Lebanese last year (many of them children). I, as an Israeli Jew who lives in Israel, resent comments from readers who know nothing about life here, do not know that Israel's governments (from the 1st till today) value land acquisition over life, and don't care how many Israelis (mainly Jews) die in the push to accomplish the 'Greater Israel.' Just how many more generations of our children do you want to die for this 'glorious' objective.

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 10:43

Mr. Powell,

Much of the incentive for Jews to have come home to Eretz Israel (Land of Israel) during the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries have been just that, blood libels in the smallest as well as the largest sense of the world, having been accused by the general community in which they lived - be it in Greater Syria, Western or Eastern Europe – that "the Jews" were responsible for imaginary or not imaginary deaths of none Jews.

Many thousands of our people have paid with their very lives for such accusations, and many more thousands have been injured, both physically and emotionally, and have lost loved ones as well as property, and eventually as a result of this perpetual attitude toward our people, millions of us have been mass murdered in a systematic and industrial fashion.

Mr. Powell, blood libel is not a theoretic matter for us, it is a living matter for many of us, and it is part of our collective historic memory.

When such accusations of Jews murdering none Jews are spewed once again so elegantly but without any facts to support it, we know where such accusations lead, and some, east of us, have already called to wipe the Jewish state of Israel off the map and are preparing the means with which to do so – nuclear, to be delivered by long as well as medium and short range rockets, already tested by those forces stationed in Lebanon.

Unless you feel comfortable with such developments, I hope you too can appreciate our, Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular of which I am one, our sensitivity to such language and attitude. I hope, I really hope.

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 10:44

Daniel Berke,

Thank you for your post, thank you very very much!

Nadav Katz

Jerusalem

israel

arbaminim
06 September 2007 at 11:10

Nadav - thank you for your post. You speak for many of us.

Shana Tova

Dorothy
06 September 2007 at 11:28

Dear Nadav Katz, etc. I agree about not spreading falsities (about Jews or anyone else), but you are weak on history. Zionism (a) took hold in Eastern Europe, where pogroms and other acts against Jews were rife (Jew in Moslem countries did not suffer this, and certainly the Palestinians were innocent of killing Jews prior to Zionism). (b) Zionism had relatively few Jewish supporters not only elsewhere, but also in Eastern Europe. What changed all this was the Holocaust. And even then, many Jews would have preferred to go to other countries rather than to Israel (had they been welcome). (c) Had Rommel not been defeated, Palestine would have been no safer for Jews than any other country was in Europe and the Middle East. (d) Israel did not turn out to be the haven that Zionists dreamed of; no where else in the world have so many Jews been killed since WWII as in Israel (about 23,000 soldiers since 1948, over 1000 civilians since 2000); no where else in the world are Jews less safe than in Israel; no where else in the world have Jews had to face 10 wars/battles in less than 60 years (from 1948 till today). As an Israeli who desires to see the children of this area grow up with a future, I say, let's restore the situation that existed before Israel: Palestine, where Jews, Christians, Muslims, and others lived together in peace. May my great grandchildren see the peace here that my children and grandchildren have not had the priviledge to. Not land, but life.

rosa
06 September 2007 at 12:12

When I did Marva back in 1991 it was certainly more serious than what those kids were doing in your interview. The training, which is incredibly hard for women, was to prepare me for two years in the army if I was going to go ahead and make Aliyah. It was an experience I will never forget. It gave me discipline and a respect for a nation constantly under attack.

The major difference between the children of Marva and Islamic Jihad is that the Israeli army is not the enemy of any Western civilisation. It does not teach to hate the West and prepare to bomb the UK or the States. It is purely an army that is there to protect Israel - which every country has a right to do.

The UK could learn from Israel, Germany, Greece, even Switzerland, where all young people attend military training or community service. Giving young people this type of training can give them a common sense of purpose, discipline and respect. The young people I see in these countries are mature and well behaved. It’s such a shame that most people see the young people of Britain as violent and dangerous.

Rick Gil
06 September 2007 at 12:22

Cybertiger wrote:

"Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004?"

Israel is a democracy governed by the rule of law. If your accusation is true then the perpatrators will be put on trial and punished accordingly. But since only very few cases have been brought, I suggest that those numbers have been greatly exaggerated by the the Islamo-Fascist hate propganda machine.

Now a question for you Cybertiger: why do the Islamo-Fascists hide amongst the civilian population placing them in mortal peril? Could it be so that if innocents are killed or wounded during a military action those who wish to believe medaevil blood libels will feel vindicated?

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 12:40

For those of us who elevate the position of Jews in Arab South West Asia (Middle East) and North Africa to the unrealistic level of near Paradise, please read the following about the Damascus affair and its aftermath:

The Damascus affair was an accusation of ritual murder and a blood libel against Jews in Damascus in 1840.

On 5 February 1840, Franciscan Capuchin friar Father Thomas and his Greek servant were reported missing, never to be seen again. The Turkish governor and the French consul Ratti-Menton believed accusations of ritual murder and blood libel, as the alleged murder occurred before the Jewish Passover. An investigation was staged, and Solomon Negrin, a Jewish barber, confessed under torture and accused other Jews. Two other Jews died under torture, and one (Moses Abulafia) converted to Islam to escape torture. More arrests and atrocities followed, culminating in 63 Jewish children being held hostage and mob attacks on Jewish communities throughout the Middle East.

The Christian funeral procession for Father Thomas (without his body) through the streets of Damascus was widely attended. A tombstone was inscribed "... assassinated by the Jews the 5th of February of the year 1840." The Arabic translation of the tombstone still stands at the Franciscan church in Damascus.

The affair drew wide international attention in particular due to the efforts of the Austrian Consul in Aleppo Eliahu Picotto who made representations to Ibrahim Pasha in Egypt who ordered an investigation. In a groundbreaking effort, 15,000 American Jews protested in six American cities on behalf of their Syrian brethren. The United States consul in Egypt expressed an official protest by the order of President Martin Van Buren. Sir Moses Haim Montefiore, backed by influential westerns including Britain's Lord Palmerston, the French lawyer Adolphe Crémieux, Austrian consul Merlatto, missionary John Nicolayson, and Solomon Munk, led a delegation to the ruler of Syria, Mehemet Ali.

Negotiations in Alexandria continued from August 4 to August 28 and secured the unconditional release and recognition of innocence of the nine prisoners still remaining alive (out of thirteen). Later in Constantinople, Montefiore persuaded Sultan Abdülmecid to issue a firman (edict) intended to halt the spread of blood libel accusations in the Ottoman Empire:

"... and for the love we bear to our subjects, we cannot permit the Jewish nation, whose innocence for the crime alleged against them is evident, to be worried and tormented as a consequence of accusations which have not the least foundation in truth...".

P.S. Pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jerusalem (1847), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901-02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901-07), Port Said (1903, 1908), Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891), Istanbul (1870, 1874), Buyukdere (1864), Kuzguncuk (1866), Eyub (1868), Edirne (1872), Izmir (1872, 1874) – and these are just key cases. In British mandate Palestine of course we remember the pogroms of 1920/21, 1929, 1936 to 1939, 1947.

Robert Powell
06 September 2007 at 12:55

Nadav. Thank you for your post. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. And thank you to your other personas that thanked you. Thanks to all the different Nadavs and the people in the Israeli health service who care for him.

rudz
06 September 2007 at 13:27

Dorothy.

You say the Israeli government is seeking to establish a 'greater Israel'.

The coalition is made up of Kadima and Labour who now have a mandate to provide a two-state solution. Their manifestos both included major withdrawals from the West Bank.

I'll think you'll find before 1948 many Jews were massacred in Palestine under the Mufti of Palestine when you claim Jews, Muslims and Christians lived in peace.

Zionist rhetoric, the belief in a Jewish homeland for a Jewish nation is in the torah, which is slightly older than the 18th century Dorothy.

Dorothy you haven't given any factual or interesting information about living in Israel. I myself have family who are Israeli and have not really commonly hard a viewpoint which you hold.

rudz
06 September 2007 at 13:27

heard*

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 13:46

Robert Powell,

You are welcome. I too send you my greetings from Jerusalem, the capital city of the Jewish state of Israel and of the Jewish people from time immemorial. I do so as a proud Jew, a proud Israeli and a proud Zionist, that is someone who of course cares about his people, the Jewish people, but not to the exclusion and the well being of the other, including other peoples.

Be well.

Nadav

laski
06 September 2007 at 13:50

Mr Holehouse,

I'd just like to ask how the Federation of Zionist Youth can be described as hardline?

FZY was set up as an explicitly pluralist alternative to other Zionist youth groups which had fairly narrow political lines at the time. FZY's only stance, as far as I know, is that the state of Israel should exist. Let's be generous to anti-zionists - let's call self-determination for Jews within the historical Palestine mandate a centre-right point of view. But hardline? Give over.

This may sound penickity, but I am standing up for friends of mine who have been through FZY and have taken leadership roles. They have also participated in peace movements such as OneVoice as well as wider progressive politics. I think you owe them an apology.

Rick Gil
06 September 2007 at 13:51

Cybertiger wrote:

"Why were Iman al-Hams and 118 other Palestinian children deliberately murdered in 2004?

Israel is a democratic State governed by the rule of law. If such crimes were committed their perpertrators should be tried in a court of law and, if found guilty, should be punnished accordingly. Since very few such cases have been heard I suggest that the number is grossly exagerated.

I have a question for Cybertiger: why do the Islamo-Fascist terrorists hide amongst the civillian population? Could it be that the Islamo-Fascist hate-propaganda machine is using the deaths of innocents in the hope that those who hold with anti-Jewish blood libel will feel vindicated?

danielnussbaum
06 September 2007 at 13:54

I went on one of these kind of things a few years back in Israel.

Most of the girls were more worried about their hair getting messy in the wind while the guys were staring at the cute looking girls in their army uniform.

To suggest that we were a group of beligerent thugs, preparing ourselves for Holy War, is just a very silly idea by a writer with an over active and fantastic mind..

I hope my writing this doesnt lead to me getting arrested next time I go through Heathrow airport though!

Cybertiger
06 September 2007 at 14:05

Rick said,

"Israel is a democratic State governed by the rule of law ..."

... but not by international law, international convention, or any of the norms of common human decency. The murderer has been tried by this mockery of a democracy and cleared of all charges.

"On October 15, 2004, the IDF cleared "Captain R" of any wrongdoing, and found no evidence of unethical behavior."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iman_al-Hams

"On November 15, 2005 a military tribunal acquitted Captain R and cleared him from all the charges against him."

"When a nation tolerates, even encourages -- through failing to properly investigate killings or punish perpetrators -- the deliberate, cold-blooded murder of a defenseless child under the pretence of security, it does not only lose any claim to morality it may have ever had, but also kills any remaining argument for its worthiness to continue existing as a racist, colonial state that is essentially above the law."

http://www.counterpunch.org/barghouti10252004.html

I agree wholeheartedly with Omar Barghouti

Clearly, the killer of Iman al-Hams, a 13 year old Palestinian girl, killed on 5 October 2004 on the sad sands of Rafah, needs to be brought before the International Criminal Court in The Hague for a proper trial and proper punishment.

Mikey
06 September 2007 at 14:10

I am with the majority here. As the main article quotes from one person Matthew Holehouse interviewed, "Fifty per cent of going on Israel tour is about getting laid." The other 50% is having a holiday and getting away from the parents. The holiday was a reward for getting lots of grade A's at 'A' levels.

I note the comments from Dorothy. I would not be overly concerned. It was reading a post by Dorothy on an anti-Zionist discussion list, populated in the main by anti-Zionist Jews, of which she is a frequent contributor that directed me here. She has suggested that others on that list come here and tell everyone how militaristic that Israel is.

Having said all of that - back to the original point - the young British and Jewish men who attend this programme - they may come back thinking they are action men.. but can they change a light bulb? I hope they do well in their accountancy degrees.

D Berke
06 September 2007 at 15:20

How many times have you sat in a cafe or on a tube or a bus and feared being blown up by an indoctrinated Jewish youth?

cyril
06 September 2007 at 15:42

Why wasn't the article illustrated with pictures of the youngsters wearing explosive vests and sitting in cafes in Ramalla or on buses in Jenin?

Is this maybe because they aren't brainwashed into believing that killing innocent civilians is the way to heaven?

oren
06 September 2007 at 17:58

First of all, in response to this last comment, why would Israelis run and fund camps to kill Israelis?

Second of all, all these suicide bombings are real, in case you havent seen the bloody pictures after them, of the ambulances and other organizations having to drive around and pick up the pieces after the bombs.

Third of all, I am a Canadian who just did the Marva program this past summer. The last line in the article is what really bothers me. The Marva program is there to give diaspora Jews a taste of what Israeli Jews go through in the army after high school. Also, the classes that we had were about the history of Israel, from a military aspect and also from a global aspect. We were taught about the IDF values, shown the code of conduct and the ethics of the IDF, which are carried around by every soldier. We were by no means considered real soldiers, and we even joked about how we were fake soldiers. The program is only meant to give Jews who have a connection to Israel a very small taste of what the army is like because they have heard stories from family/friends.

It is in no way the same as terrorist training camps in pakistan and yemen. There people are trained with the final goal to kill and indoctrinated with a belief that if you kill Jews you will go to heaven. In the Marva program, we are taught about the extra effort put forth by the IDF to save palestinians when there is no other way, ie. a targetted killing of a known palestinian terrorist.

bat ami
06 September 2007 at 18:49

Nadav, kol ha kavod, I am greatly reassured that at this stage the only posts to remain coherent and cool-headed are those, like yours, in support of Israel. Everyone else has now sunk to basic ah hominem attacks (I don't think it is at all hysterical to take seriously the existential threat facing Israel), repetition of earlier points which aren't even debated (I don't think anyone is defending the killing of Iman Al-Hams. Similarly, it is time for people to recognise that the killing of Israeli children is not an ok thing.) and strange consipracy theories (jihad4life21... orchestrating the death of their own is a Palestinian speciality, not an Israeli one. To see the relative value of life and death in the Arab and Israeli psyches you need only look at news coverage on Al-Jazeera which posts violent, bloody and disturbing images and that of the Israeli news channels, where such images are actually not permitted to be aired).And Dorothy, if you really want a peaceful future in the land of Israel you should work at a grass-roots level towards Israeli-Palestinian coexistence, rather than standing against Israel's existence. As Nadav mentioned already, there was no state of Israel in 1920/21, 1929, 1936 to 1939, 1947, yet there were anti-Jewish pogroms. Shana tova lekulam

nashim4
06 September 2007 at 19:14

Mr. Holehouse ends his article with

"If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?"

This rhetorical question is a great deceiver: of course the answer is NO!

It is not illegal in Great Britain to fire machine guns and take part in assault courses in military training camps in Pakistan or Yemen. Or in Israel. Thus of course they would NOT be arrested

However, if they were Moslems - the special services would do well to keep track of these young Moslems. They probably do keep track of young Moslems. If they don't - they are not doing their duty to protect Britain from terrorist attacks.

There is no need to keep track of these young Jews, however. While Moslem tradition is one of insurgency against the infidel who must be converted by the sword, Jewish tradition is to live in peace with one's host country - even joining willfully the host countries armies in case of war and - even at the expense of perhaps fighting against other Jews who are fighting for their host country s indeed happened in the first world war.

Looking at Mr. Holehouse's articles on the New Statesman's site, I see that as a rule they get 5 responses or less.

This article has so far 64 comments.

If there is correlation between the responses and the sales of your paper, it would seem a good idea for the New Statesman to publish more unbalanced propaganda articles.

Perhaps the paper should change its name from The New Statesman to The New Propagandist?

Amihai
06 September 2007 at 19:32

Bat Ami,

Thank you for your kind words.

The only way that I know of confronting this mix of ignorance and maliciousness directed at the Jewish state of Israel, its founding ideology of Zionism and by extention at the Jewish people is to be be equiped with the relevant information and knowledge, the willingness to convey it rationally, and to do so with respect towards the other and respect towards the values to which we adhere as a people.

In any event, be well, all the best and shanah tovah u'metukah to you and the rest of beit israel.

Nadav

Ergo
06 September 2007 at 20:41

This is one hellish post of accusation and counter-accusation. There is no crime Israel will admit to and

every "incident" is met with the challenge to "prove it" - impossible of course - you can't read peoples' minds. But Rachel Corrie was cut in half by a bulldozer and the "incident" was not apologized for

but endlessly excused.

Palestinians have no state and cannot organize an army and major arsenal but there is no reason to assume either that their intentions are less honorable than Israelis' or that they love killing. There is an imbalance of power here that has to fit into the equation somewhere. It would be nice if some

Israel supporters had something positive to say about Palestinians - seems racist not to.

I can understand Jewish and Israeli paranoia to some extent because, as a child, I witnessed the anti-semitism, sometimes blatant, sometimes subtle, promulgated by the Catholic church and other organizations. And although these are different times and Jews are welcome and appreciated and racism of all kinds seen as the stupid delusion it is, it seems you can't escape history, it follows like a dark shadow. The best argument perhaps is that Israel is hurting itself and many prominent Jews will argue to that.

Pierre
06 September 2007 at 20:47

The Palestinian Holocaust continues while the World tuns it's back........................................

speegster
06 September 2007 at 21:44

Hey Pierre, are you like Cybertiger in that you've never been to Israel? Well, you did go ct, but 27 years ago. A lot of things happen in a quarter of a century, and Israel and the wider Middle East is a fundamentally different place, to state the bleeding obvious. You've got no leg to stand on, until you actually go there. And I don't mean when Thatcher was a fresh-faced PM in the UK.

Also, the virtual rantings of a nobody are not edifying, just a tragic example misguided self-absorption. And your snide, pig-headed and not so latent comparisons with Israel and Nazi Germany (cf. your "final solution" comment above) - a favourite tool of your buddy John "the bilger" Pilger - is historically asinine, overtly bigoted, and a further testament to the irrevocable bankruptcy of your standpoint.

Until you go to Israel and/or Gaza and the West Bank, in the current climate, your arguments count for precisely nothing.

oren
06 September 2007 at 21:45

"palestinians have no state'...

...

Jordan is their state. the area called 'palestine' was meant to include the area west and east of the Jordan river. The area now east of the Jordan river is called Jordan, which was given to the Palestinians, and the area West of the Jordan river is for the Jews, even if you dont include the west bank and gaza which also is for the palestinians

Dorothy
06 September 2007 at 21:48

What people like Batami and Nadav do not realize is that their unconditional support of Israel is killing Israelis as well as Palestinians. The people in Sderot have much more in common with the people in Gaza than those in Sderot realize, for it is their leaders who do not now nor have in the past wanted peace. They want land first and foremost. Unfortunate for all of us. But until Israelis (and others) realize that just as almost 60 years of the use of force and injustice towards Palestinians has not brought security for Israelis, so neither will another 60 years. Sad. No wonder that immigration has dried up and emigration is on the rise. By your unconditional support of Israel, you contribute to the insecurity that Israels (as well as Palestinians) experience.

Cybertiger
06 September 2007 at 21:59

@speegster

"Until you go to Israel and/or Gaza and the West Bank, in the current climate, your arguments count for precisely nothing."

Dumkopf!

Pierre
07 September 2007 at 02:01

The only difference between the occupying force and the Palestinians is religion.

It's an easy therfore to conclude that religion is the Worlds cancer.

Amihai
07 September 2007 at 06:22

I am advised by Dorothy, yet in a humble way may I simply suggest to this lady and others to consider the words I shared with Bat Ami (daughter of my people): "…to be equipped with the relevant information and knowledge, the willingness to convey it rationally, and to do so with respect towards the other and respect towards the values to which we adhere as a people".

I am afraid that our Dorothy in making her arguments is instead equipped with the irrelevant ideological mantras and lack the of relevant knowledge, with the burning willingness to hysterically convey a philosophy that has long passed away, and doing so with little respect towards the other and even smaller amount of respect towards the values to which we, the Jewish people, have adhered as a people.

But as a liberal democratic society and country that Israel is, and as a liberal democratic society and country that the UK is, I am glad we do allow the fringes of the fringes among us to have their say as well.

spkurer
07 September 2007 at 06:25

Pierre-

I think your showing the intellectual depth and brilliance to be one of New-Statesman's star writers. Go for it! ( I hope you are not over-qualified for them.)

Nlateman
07 September 2007 at 08:57

'the website of Federation of Zionist Youth, one of the largest and most hard-line organisers of gap years, states "FZY feels that you cannot truly understand Israel and the people living their [sic] if you do not understand the army." And that, for many Jews, must be rather depressing. '

It is rather depressing, but if makes perfect sense. If the purpose of the year is to really get to grips with the issues affecting the country, and to understand what it is to be Israeli, rather than being a sideline spectator, then it seems to be sensible to get an insight into the Israeli army, as all Israelis have mandatory conscription for at least 21 months. Furthermore, for the 18-19 year olds on their gap years an army experience is the only way to meet Israelis their own age who are all conscripted. If this were not the case, and the reason that conscription exists is the permanent existential threat to Israel's existence, then I'm sure that FZY would reconsider their programming.

Also, I'm not sure at all what is meant by 'hard-line', but as mentioned elsewhere, FZY's only political/religious position is a belief in Jewish self-determination in Israel. What's hardline about that?

Jenny Webb
07 September 2007 at 10:15

I just wonder about these constant accusations of anti-semitism whenever someone has the temerity to question the actions of the state of Israel. It's easiest defence to put up and the hardest to refute! Could it be that people criticise Israel more because they expect higher standards from a democratic state? Could it be because they feel disappointed in what Israel does, having had great sympathy for the Jewish people in the wake of the holocaust? Even if the abused often do become abusers and oppressors, somehow it's always surprising!

If you think back to the mid-1990s there were periods of hope and then some extremist on one side would do something, the extremists on the other would react and the peace process would be knocked off course. The idea that in all of this Israel (I believe in collective responsibility) hasn't done any wrong is so wilfully self-deceiving it's extraordinary. It's as credible as a Soviet-era election result in Romania! No-one in Britain has been charged with causing the death of Charles de Menezes but that doesn't mean he wasn't murdered/unlawfully killed. Like the IDF, the Metropolitan Police Force defends its own sometimes even when it's not in the interests of justice. Not putting your hands up when you've done wrong undermines you - as the Met Police commissioner has found out.

Col Sanders
07 September 2007 at 11:24

I wonder if the racism isn't in the other direction - that people have low expectations of Arabs and so they aren't surprised by suicide bombers etc.

spkurer
07 September 2007 at 12:10

Jenny-yours is a well thought out and reasonable post- as are many others are. The majority are not anti-semitic and yes you can criticize Israel and not be anti-semitic as many of us do.

Israel is an incredibly self critical open society which encourages constant analyis. Our court system is envied by judiciaries throughout the world and often puts the USA and British authorities to shame in it's criticism of Government. If criticising Israel is anti-semitic most Israelis are anti-semitic!

On the other-hand some of the posts are clearly anti-semitic. There are also posts which are more subtle in their ant-semitism. When some-one writes ' Palestinian holocaust' in criticising Israel-that IS anti-semitic. When as Pilger does he accuses Israel of 'ethnic cleansing'- an untruth, a libel -sure I wonder what the motivation is.

When the New Statesman allows a post '."If only Hitler had finished the job, we wouldn't be having any of these problems today. ...." to stay on there web-site for over 2 days without removing it -as they did a couple of seeks ago - at the very least they are party to desemination of anti-semitic hate on their web site. These are not legitimate criticisms of the State of Israel- they are anti-semitic.

Amihai
07 September 2007 at 12:31

Jenny Webb,

I do appreciate your post very much because it is dipped in pain and honesty, and I shall respond to it with as much honesty and perhaps even greater amount of pain.

It is very possibly that some people expect of Israel more because it is a liberal democracy. It is also possibly that many people have had high expectations and hopes which have not been met. Indeed, some people may be surprised about the way Israel is governed. These are all very legitimate feelings on the part of people who have cared, and you will find them, with very high level of introspection, first and foremost among Jews in general and more so among Israeli Jews in particular.

Indeed, Israel has not been perfect, far from it. But, Ms. Webb, how many countries do you know that are perfect? In a short period of time of only sixty years Israel has done, however, things that other countries have not been able to do, despite all the odds and despite the constant existential threat that it faces. I'll share with you a single example that says much about the nature of Israel and its uniqueness.

During the 1990s, Ms. Webb, Israel absorbed a million new comers, Jews from Ethiopia and from the former Soviet Union. That was 20% of its former demographic size. Those who arrived came with no financial means, nothing. Yet, all who arrived have been housed, clothed, fed, educated, received free health treatment and within several years became productive members of Israeli society. I challenge you to show me yet another country, even among the richest of them, doing so much in such a period of time for a group of people 20% or even 10% or even 5% of its own population. And this was done, had been done and continued to be done despite the fact that the intentions of Israel's neighbors, as has been demonstrated so many times, has been the elimination of this tiny Jewish state, a state the size of Wales, Slovenia and New Jersey.

Personally, I prefer to use the term anti-Semitism as little as possible. But, Ms. Webb, when people out there – and during the past two decades or so it has been primarily the neo-Socialists in Britain – seem to be disproportionately obsessed with attacking everything Israel, demonize it and de-legitimize it, often with little or no basis for doing so, and not for the sake of being constructively critical of course, I must only conclude that they single out this only nation-state of the Jewish people, indeed the most important national symbol of this people, this race, during the 20th and 21st centuries out of all other countries and nation-states due to the fact that it is Jewish, and this, Ms. Webb, is racism, anti-Jewish racism, and I see not reason what-so-ever to stand proud and tall and say: Never again!

Cybertiger
07 September 2007 at 12:54

NadavKatz said,

"Never again!"

On 9 December 1948, the UN General Assembly adopted the 'Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide'. This was essentially a 'never again' promise to the world after the Holocaust. Do you think this was a promise made only to the Jews?

Jenny Webb
07 September 2007 at 13:05

I've read this whole thread quite carefully and I can't tell you how disappointed I am that it's you that has responded to my post Nadav. You say you prefer to use the term anti-Semitism as little as possible but you repeatly make precisely that accusation. You use the word Neo-Socialist in order quite falsely to invoke a comparison with Neo-Nazism . You've proven - yet again - that it is impossible to have a sensible discussion when a fundamentalist is involved. If you overstate everything eventually nothing will have any meaning! In all of this you seem blind to the horrifying reality - that if you continue to walk along your current path one day the thing you are most paranoid about (Israel's destruction) will come to pass.

spkurer
07 September 2007 at 13:22

and Pray Jenny-tell us what Israel should do?

- Israel withdrew from Sinai in the seventies-and in truth have had a very cold peace with Egypt. ( Mubarak only visited for Rabin's funeral-shame he can't visit to meet a Prime-Minister when he is alive.)

They withdrew from Lebanon and were rewarded with a military build up by Hizbola, kidnapping of soldiers and suicide bombs.

They withdrew from Gaza-and we are rewarded with daily missile attacks from there.

We elected a year ago a Prime Minister on the promise of withdrawing from almost all (the very small) remaining disputed terortories in the West Bank.

We face the Iranian President threatening us with nuclear destruction.

Jenny-sure if Israel is wiped off the map-maybe we wouldn't be the source of all problems (although somehow I doubt it)-but that is not going to happen!

Robert Powell
07 September 2007 at 13:25

During the 1990s, Ms. Webb, Israel absorbed a million new comers, Jews from Ethiopia and from the former Soviet Union. That was 20% of its former demographic size. Those who arrived came with no financial means, nothing. Yet, all who arrived have been housed, clothed, fed, educated, received free health treatment and then put to work emptying Israel's bins.

Amihai
07 September 2007 at 13:30

Jenny Webb,

I have never used the term Neo-Nazism in my life, and have never had the intent to compare such term to any other!

I use the term neo-Socialism because I have seen it and agree with what it is set out to describe, that is supposed "socialist" ideas integrated with Islamism and anti-Jewish racism. This is how I percieve this term and this is how I use it.

And if you think my strong "fundamental" opinion about the right of my people to be should be compromized well, no, I have no intention to compromize with the the right of all peoples, including the Jewish people, to national self-determination and peaceful existence.

I am not "paranoid" about Israel destruction. Israel is only a political entity that can come and go. I am concerned indeed about the well being of my people, my Jewish people. The world has been standing by when it was almost wiped off the earth only in the middle of the last century. Our tiny Jewish state has been attacked by several Arab armies several times with the explicit call to annihilate it and slaughter its people. And today another Muslim leader in our region calls for the wiping of Israel off the map, prepares the nuclear means with which to do so, and has unleashed its front troops stationed in Lebanon and those stationed in Hamastan to try the means with which to deliver the final blow.

Wouldn't you be concerned deal lady??!!

Our existence as individuals, as a society and as a nation-state is not a theoretical question; we face it daily, and while we do so, we also manage to be productive, govern ourselves and enrich humanity with many of the contributions that we make here in tiny Israel in just about every endevour in human experience.

I am proud of it, indeed, I am very proud of being a Jew, an Israeli Jew at that, and a Zionist.

Jane Greene
07 September 2007 at 13:41

It's a cheap political trick to deliberately misunderstand something someone said! So far as I could tell Jenny never accused you Katz of using the term Neo-Nazism. Your intentions are quite plain as is your sexism! 'Dear lady' indeed. Answer me this. Do you believe in the right to self determination on the part of the Palestinian people?

Pierre
07 September 2007 at 14:10

If the Palestinian jews gave up their racism and gave up their ethnic cleansing and allowed the Palestinians to return to their homes there would be no issues.

The entire tragedy lies at the feet of the jews.

Amihai
07 September 2007 at 14:15

Dear Jane, and by extention dear Jenny,

I state here, as I believe I have stated in my previous posts that as far as I am concerned the universally accepted right of peoples to national slef-determination should be applied to all peoples.

Since the Palestinian Arab people consider itself a people it too has the right to national self-determination.

Having stated the above, it should also be clear to people who are serious about the history of our region, the Palestinian Arab people has evolved as a people since the early part of the 20th century and has come to a degree of maturity only in the 1960s. As early as 1937 and 1947 its leaders refused to see in it as a people and stated so to the rest of the world. They perceived themselves as part of the greater Arab nation and not as a particular people. It has evolved to become a people, I regret to say, mostly as a reaction to Jewish nationalism in Eretz Israel/Palestine and with the intention of annihilate this new national movement, its people and its political entity, the Jewish state of Israel. It has come about as a result of its negation of the other and not due to organic and natural cultural ties within it.

Possibly because of its young age and lacking the collective experience to govern itself, the Palestinian Arab people, for instance has never been able to have a leadership and institutions that led it towrds anything constructive, nothing. And also possibly as a result, it has never managed to govern any territory given to it, and has always rejected any independence offered it, beginning with the 1937 Royal Peel Commission to 1947 UN Partition Plan, to the Autonomy offer of 1979 that would have evolved into an independent state, to 2000 Camp David II offer. And between the years 1948 to 1967, when the now disputed territories of the West Bank, Gaza Strip and eastern Jerusalem were fully under Arab control its leaders - Haj Amin al-Husseini, Ahmad Shuqeiri and Yasar Arafat - did not press Jordan and Egypt to establish an independent Palestinian Arab state over these territories; instead they began to send their operatives to place explosives under the dwellings of Israeli civilians inside Israel and shoot Israeli farmers and their family members, 1950s and 1960s.

And the leadership of this people these days is split again and incapable to govern, neither the Gaza Strip nor the West Bank, both in terms of authority as well as the power to do so.

Any future implementation of the right of self-determination for the Palestinian Arab people should be examined first and foremost by them against this background.

Robert Powell
07 September 2007 at 14:52

Exposed as racist, sexist and mad. It's been quite a week for you Nadav, hasn't it? Have a lovely weekend and don't annoy the nurses!

Amihai
07 September 2007 at 15:28

Well, at least I know someone reads my posts, one named Sir Robert Powell (I hope I don't come across as sexist by referring to him as Sir).

Robert Powell
07 September 2007 at 15:44

No only as a git.

Cybertiger
07 September 2007 at 16:35

@Mr. Katz

Isn't it time for you to settle down for shabbat ... and a little quiet contemplation on the sins of the Israeli state and its devoutly religious peoples?

Pencils
07 September 2007 at 17:37

To any gauche newcomers to blogland - you can discount the zionist posts; they're nearly all solicited by a website called 'Give Israel Your United Support'. They send out text alerts to subscribers mobile phones whenever Israel is mentioned in a blog and probably draft comments - all to flood the comments with pro-Israel propaganda. Some of them are almost certainly full-time professional propagandists. NadavKatz for instance shows up on every CIF blog mentioning Israel - he writes so much and so often that the question arises as to how he manages to find the time.

As to the article - dead right! If they want army training they should join the British territorial army. And the idea that Israel shares our values, as some posters pretend, is just laughable.

Pierre
07 September 2007 at 21:40

Pencils

Good Post, I think most people realize there is a Goebbels type bureaucracy out there spreading malicious information, Whats interesting is they have been more and more frantic of late.

rudz
08 September 2007 at 01:01

Pencils this almost my 10th post on this blog. I have the time to post because I am a student and have nothing better to do with my time! Any other questions? I don't post a lot because of any 'instiution' or 'propaganda' or 'bureaucracy'.

A lot of us have posted in support of Israel because the Zionists are mobilising and are ready to take over the world! Your comments are so absurb they make me laugh!

Maybe we (as individuals) feel passionate about the same things.

I am not a full-time propagandist...so how embarrassing for you that you have stated this claim, which is false!

rudz
08 September 2007 at 01:03

Robert Powell you talk about the immigrants entering into Israel. What's your take on the 350 Sudanese Darfurian Muslim who have recently been granted citizenship in Israel???

Cybertiger
08 September 2007 at 08:54

@rudz

"What's your take on the 350 Sudanese Darfurian Muslim who have recently been granted citizenship in Israel???"

These tiny black figleaves don't in any way cover Israel's ugly naughty bits.

Pencils
08 September 2007 at 11:07

"What's your take on the 350 Sudanese Darfurian Muslim who have recently been granted citizenship in Israel???"

My take is that I don't believe it and, even if they went through the motions, can these Darfurians now buy land, marry who they like, form a political party that opposes the definition of Israel as a Jewish state ...etc. I would have to write a book to detail all the ways in which they are unlikely to enjoy full citizenship but as there already is a very good book let me refer you to it: ' Access Denied: Palestinian Land Rights in Israel' Zed books 2003 by Hussein Abu Hussein and Fiona McKay.

Anyway, what does citizenship confer? The State recognizes Israeli citizenship but not Israeli nationality. All Jews in the world can have Israeli nationality but no non-Jews in Israel can become Israeli nationals except by conversion.

spkurer
08 September 2007 at 18:19

Pencils -

about 15-20% of Israeli nationals are not Jewish-

not that blatant facts seem to have any influence on the monologue of hatred against Israel that spues out of your posts.

Joe Feld
09 September 2007 at 02:23

There are about 1.3 million Arab citizens of Israel. There are about zero Jewish citizens of Jordan. Israeli Arabs sit in the israeli Parliament; one was recently acting President of Israel. Citizenship confers the same thing in Israel that it confers in the UK or any other Western country. Why play games with semantics?

Joe Feld
09 September 2007 at 02:52

Pencil,

Katz, Powell, Green and I are happy to sign our names to our opinions, so why do you and others hide behind anonymity to express you rather aggressive opinions? I spent six years in Johns Hopkins training in the field of history back in the 1960's. What are your credentials?

Pencils
09 September 2007 at 09:23

spunker - about 20% of Israeli CITIZENS are non-Jewish but for all practical purposes the state recognises arab and Jewish as separate and not equal nationalities. The discrimination is sometimes blatant as in the question of land and property rights or service in the military, but there are dozens of different ways of covertly discriminating e.g. by making employment contingent on having served in the military , or just operating a policy without stating it officially - are there equal opportunity officers in Israel ? Well, if there are and they give Israel a clean bill of health who would believe them? Of the 80% non arabs the number who are Jews in any meaningful sense is minimal. Would having one Catholic grandparent make me a Catholic if I had had never had anything to do with the church? And how serious are the checks on these grandparents, especially on Russian and American immigrants? Israel may have started as a Jewish racist state but it's now an American colony. All the scientific contributions you credit above to Israel wouldn't exist except for it's role as a sub-contractor to the USA.

As to the Arab Parliament - that's purely cosmetic. They are not allowed to campaign for a change in the racist nature of the state, or even effectively represent Arab interests; if a serious leader pops his head up, he will be crushed like Marwan Bhargouti.

Joe Feld - so you know Katz and the others - what a surprise? Johns Hopkins University - given the record of US academia from McCarthy to the present day with Finkelstein and Ward Churchil, and the known CIA sponsoring of many US academics(see William Blum's 'Killing Hope' for a start), few people take US universities seriously anymore outside of the fields of science and business. Although there are undoubtedly some fine writers employed by US universities, their reputations rest on their work not on their qualifications. Can we take seriously an academic culture in which Alan Dershowitz can continue to make a living?

But if you really know the history and therefore know that you are lying, then I hope to see you hang one day for crimes against humanity.

Joe Feld
09 September 2007 at 11:27

Dear Pencil,

I have never met or spoken to any of the others who have the integrity to sign their posts. Johns Hopkins and Princeton are the two top American universities whose Middle Eastern Departments get no money from Arab sources and are known to be independent. You haven't mentioned your qualifications or signed your real name. Your aggressive style doesn't suggest much in the way of neutrality or academic objectivity. I have been working in the field of history for the past 40 years. How long have you devoted to the subject?

Pencils
09 September 2007 at 13:45

Joe Feld - It's 'Pencils' not ' Pencil'.

"I have never met or spoken to any of the others who have the integrity to sign their posts. "

Well then , how do you know that they 'sign their posts' with their real name?

Anyway , it's customary to use pen-names on blogs and a good practice, especially for discussions of Israel whose critics can expect torrents of abuse and death threats, interference in their professional life or even kidnapping or murder from a well-organised, massively financed fascist organisations.

And what are your qualifications since you ask? Needless to say I won't believe you.

Pierre
09 September 2007 at 14:38

What is needed is a boycott of American companies that contribute to the maintenance of the occupation of Palestine.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:05

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Leonard Knell via email

You should be ashamed of yourself for equating Jewish youths with Muslim terrorists. Matthew Holehouse has equated Jewish gap year students taking part in IDF volunteer programs in Israel with Islamic Jihad summer schools in Gaza which teach Palestinian youths to become suicide bombers. You call this journalism? Articles such as this only perpetuate the ongoing problem in the mideast. Matthew Holehouse should investigate what the purpose of the IDF program actually is before he makes statements like he did. I have not heard of any Jewish suicide bombers!

The world seems to have forgotten history. The UN in 1948 partitioned “Palestine” providing a state for both the Jews and the Arabs. The Jews accepted, however the Arabs didn’t and 5 Arab states attacked the young country of Israel believing that the war would be won in a week. At least that’s what they told fellow Arabs living in Israel when they suggested for them to leave their homes, affirming that they would be back in a week. If the Arabs had accepted the UN partition, there presently would be a Palestinian state beside Israel. Instead they chose war…..war….and more war. The Palestinian refugees unfortunately have become nothing more than pawns, and they have been kept in camps solely to perpetuate hatred….and more hatred. Solutions to problems cannot be settled by hatred! How is it that tiny Israel assimilated roughly an equal number of Jewish refugees kicked out of Arab countries, and the vast area of Arab land couldn’t assimilate the Palestinian refugees? Barak at Camp David accepted 95% of Palestinian demands, however Arafat turned down the offer. Palestinians could have had a state then. Arafat was probably worried that if he accepted, he would be assassinated like Sadat. What happened to all the contributions made to the PLO? Infrastructure was not built and the poor people were not helped. The thugs in power stuffed their own pockets!

You may not be anti-semetic; however your article surely promotes anti-semitism, and only fuels ongoing hatreds. Try to promote understanding between peoples instead of hatred, and maybe someday we will regain sanity in this crazy world. Journalists owe it to their readers to investigate facts before they write inflammatory articles which provide more fuel for fanatics. Arabs like Nonie Darwish, Brigitte Gabriel, and Walid Shoebat all are fervent supporters of Israel. Why? Nonie Darwish’s father was killed at age 38 by the

IDF, and yet she is an outspoken advocate for Israel. Walid Shoebat was a former Palestinian terrorist and now lectures eloquently in support of Israel. Listen to Brigitte Gabriel’s story and learn why she became a supporter of Israel. There people are not Jews….only concerned intelligent human beings who disregarded proproganda and came to their own conclusions.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:09

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Leonard Stein from Israel via email

Your insinuation that Jewish youth from the UK going to Israel and undergoing elementary military training is equivalent to Moslems training at Al Quida camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan, is another scurrilous anti-Semitic statement of which your newspaper has long been infamous. British Jews have never plotted to kill their fellow citizens, as opposed to the those Moslem terrorists who have the backing of a significant percentage of the Moslem citizens of your country. British Jews fought and died for England in the Anglo-Boer War, World War 1 and World War 2. Their graves in military cemetaries in Africa, Europe, the Middle and Far East are testament to their loyalty to their adopted homeland, England. It would befit you to hang your head in shame.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:12

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Dr Paul Blom via email

How can Matthew Holehouse possibly compare British Jewish teenagers spending time with the Israeli Defence Forces with Muslim youths attending "training camps" in Pakistan. My son spent some time in an IDF camp this summer simply to see it's, unfortunately,essential role in Israeli society and to have some understanding of it's workings. He also spent time with Bedouins and Israeli Arabs I am pleased to say. He certainly didn't come back, and neither did any of his many friends who he went with, indoctrinated planning to launch terror attacks on UK transport systems. He returned with a much better understanding of the problems the Middle East faces.

It is ludicrous, mischevious and simply wrong to imply such exposure is creating Jewish terrorist cells in the United Kingdom.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:15

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Gary Katz from the US via email

Mr. Holehouse's article finds Jewish camp comparable to jihadist youth training camps, eh? Strangely, I found no mention in the article about the Jewish camps preaching martyrdom, training in suicide belts, teaching hatred of other religions, glorifying past suicide bombers as heros, or brainwashing that it's ok to murder civilians. Reading through the commentaries, I found a pro-article bit by Tim Holmes unintentionally revealing. Mr. Holmes tried to argue that Jews have also planned terrorist attacks on British soil. To support this point, Mr. Holmes had to go back to 1946, sixty one years ago, for his one example. When will you Brits finally realize that Israel is your natural ally, and that Jews are a valuable segment of your society?

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:16

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Ann Schwartzwald from the US via email

Matthew Holehouse’s recent article equates Muslim terrorist training camps and a British program referred to as Jewish gap year. This plan allows Jewish youth to participate in a program, in Israel, that uses, in part, simulated army training. It enlightens the teens as to the role of the IDF in Israeli society. The idea that the two are equal is ludicrous from the start! The camps attended by Muslim youth are designed to teach them to become jihadists and martyrs, the “IDF volunteer program�, utilizing simulations, enables Jewish youth to gain an understanding of what life is like on a daily basis in Israel and why Israel has to defend herself in the first place. Evidently, Holehouse is not aware that -

In the state of Israel, it is mandatory for all Israelis – Jewish, Arab, Christian, Muslim - to serve in the armed service for two years, after which they are in the reserves for the remainder of their lives. No Jewish Israeli family wants their son or daughter to train as a soldier and learn to use weapons in order to kill people who aggress against them, but there is no choice. The circumstances under which they are forced to live demand it. The Jewish gap year program is an excellent way to educate youth about what their peers are contending with in other countries. The terrorist training camps, on the other hand, are cesspools where attendees are trained in carrying out guerilla tactics against those they’ve been taught are their enemies. They’ve been trained to hate Israelis since pre-kindergarten and to strive to achieve goals they’ve been brainwashed to believe: martyrdom through violence against innocent civilians. They are trained in jihad and sent to perpetrate it on the rest of the world.

Israel is always accused of being the aggressor. The reality is that Israel lives under a never-ending threat of destruction from most, if not all, of the 22 Arab countries surrounding it and their supporters around the world. There is a constant barrage of rockets fired from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank into southern and northern Israel, respectively, on a daily basis. Remember last summer when Israeli citizens were forced to live in bunkers because of the shelling day and night by Hezbollah and the Palestinians?

Holehouse and the rest of the world need to pay better attention to the realities of today’s world. Hamas, Hezbollah, al Quaeda, and Iran, to name a few, have all announced publicly and/or written in their charters that their mission is to destroy the Jewish state – wipe it off the face of the earth. The rest of us need to face up to reality instead of sticking our heads in the sand. That just makes us a perfect target - with our butts in the air!

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:18

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Yehuda Wolper from the US via email

The New Statesman has falsely equated Jewish teens volunteering on IDF programs and Muslim youths taking part in terrorist training camps.

Your publication also questions the motivations of Jewish youth movements' legitimate ties to Israel, including the Federation of Zionist Youth, the British sister movement of the US-based Young Judaea. Many American Jewish teens and other Diaspora youths have taken part in programs designed to foster an understanding of the IDF, its role in Israeli society and to connect with Israelis doing their compulsory army service.

The New Statesman's feature ends with the shocking question: "If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?" The sad reality is that terrorist attacks have already taken place on British soil with the involvement of British Muslims trained abroad. Diaspora Jewish youths are not being trained to become terrorists, nor are they motivated to carry out acts of terror in their own countries or elsewhere. The New Statesman's ridiculous moral equivalence is contemptuous and irresponsible.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:21

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Philip Galley via email

I can't believe your journal could stoop so low as to equate Jewish UK volunteers in IDF programmes, with Muslim killers in Terrorist organisations. This kind of twisted journalism from a respected British publication makes a man ashamed to be British.

I do hope you'll have the grace to apologise, and to acknowledge the right of British Jews to celebrate and explore their historical and present relationship ties with the Sovereign and democratic State of Israel.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:22

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Glenda Fawbert via email

The analogy between British teens undertaking a gap year to Israel and participating in IDF run courses and Mohammedan suicide bombers begs credulity. Suicide bomb attacks are not and have never been part of the IDF training programmes,whereas these are recognised as legitmate means by Mohammedan societies to destroy the European based cultures that are providing these very people with opportunities beyond their wildest imaginings in their own cultures.

Our culture of tolerance in the west is being abused by these people, and the tragedy is that instead of seeing this for what it is, a brutal full frontal attack on our very core, we make excuses for this behaviour and blame ourselves.

Wake up Europe, before it is too late and they have subverted our much cherished tradition of tolerance and democracy into an intolerant medieval backward mohammedan theocracy. The irony is that these are the very societies that they have supposedly left behind and fled to the west to escape. Now they seek to establish the same on our soil

The choice is ours and right now the future is not looking too positive!

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:35

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Arthur Gober from the US via email

New Statesman has falsely equated Jewish teens volunteering on IDF programs and Muslim youths taking part in terrorist training camps.

The New Statesman's feature ends with the shocking question: "If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?" The sad reality is that terrorist attacks have already taken place on British soil with the involvement of British Muslims trained abroad. Diaspora Jewish youths are not being trained to become terrorists, nor are they motivated to carry out acts of terror in their own countries or elsewhere. The New Statesman's ridiculous moral equivalence is contemptuous and irresponsible.

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:38

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Marilyn Himmel from the US via email

Your comparison of Jewish youth who volunteer on IDF programs with Muslim youths who take part in terrorist campaigns is distorted and false. I am not a youth but a senior citizen and I volunteered to help the IDF. All Jewish males serve annually in the IDF until they are past middle age. As an American volunteer, I can do a non-military job that frees up Israeli men to do their normal job and be with their family. I am not a militant nor am I a terrorist in any way. I would have been happy for any or all of my children to volunteer to help the IDF as well. We have a love for Israel

I think that you owe American youth an apology (again!).

Admin
11 September 2007 at 11:40

From letters to the editor:

Sent by Clive Berger via email

In a recent article in the New Statesman the author equated military training of Jewish youth in Israel with the training of Moslem youths in the techniques of terrorism. This is another example of a coordinated campaign by either misguided or anti-semitic left wing sympathisers to demonise Israel and its supporters. Nobody in their right mind could suspect Jewish youth of mounting a campaign of terror.

The publication of such an article has reduced the reputation of the journal.

Pencils
11 September 2007 at 12:51

" Nobody in their right mind could suspect Jewish youth of mounting a campaign of terror."

That says it all! How long till we have soviet style (not that I wholly believe the propaganda on that) psychiatric confinement for critics of Israel. I must have hallucinated the whole story from the hanged British sergeants, Deir Yassin etc to Rachel Corrie and all the children killed by snipers, not to mention the wall, the checkpoints, the demolitions, the destruction of Olive groves. That's defense of course.

anonymous
11 September 2007 at 14:07

This article is a byast, uneducated opinion on a topic which couldn't be further from fact or truth. I myself was in marva. It was a fantastic learnning experience on the ideology, the trials and tribulations of israeli soldiers. It did not however encourage me to be a "suicide bomber" or disrespect other nations. It teaches discipline, respect and educates. Education is what is lacking in the writer of this article. To make comparisons between israeli educational programs and palestinian training camps is just absurd and frankly i am outraged by the comparison. The only similiarity is the geography of the countries. beyond this, there is nothing and next time an article like this is written, i suggest it is researched rather than reeled off as a pack of lies.

Amihai
11 September 2007 at 14:48

NS Admin.,

Thank you for sharing with readers the lettters you have received via e-mail. Perhaps these letters too will add to and provide your editors with a meaningful feedback as to how your readers perceive your bad choice of writers dealing with the Arab Israeli conflict.

I for one hope to read better reporting and more balanced commentary published in your otherwise respected publication.

Thank you,

Nadav Katz

Jerusalem, Israel

Robert Powell
11 September 2007 at 15:16

Or as to how the pro-Zionist lobby tries to bully publications into submission. I doubt 90% of the posters had ever read the New Statesman before this week! Hope they come back now they've discovered it! NOT!

fff
11 September 2007 at 16:10

These terror camps in Israel train murders like those killed British reporter Iain Hook.

By the way 10 November is approaching to remind us of United Nations resolution 3379 (XXX).

sonicdeathmonkey
11 September 2007 at 21:58

The amount of propaganda on this board is alarming, to say the least and not all of it is pro-Israel. Its pretty clear that there is a concerted effort by certain parties to avoid difficult subjects (eg. military attacks on civilians) and to move discussion away to more emotive and less reprehensible matters. This structured assault is far more worrying than the dissembling.

Harry
11 September 2007 at 23:46

How is this piece not libelous of the integrity and intentions of these Jewish children? To, in any way, compare them to Jihadis is disgusting and abusive. They are not taught to hate others or to participate in suicide bombings of the innocent. Why don't you simply say that Her Majesty is the same as Hitler and Stalin because they all wear hats?

Harry
12 September 2007 at 00:05

Tim Holmes - I note that Mr. Bevin was not assasinated by any of Mr. Shamir's affiliates - he died of old age. He did, however, enforce the policy of returning Jewish Holocaust survivors who tried to enter Palestine back to the Displaced Persons camps in Europe. Nice man. Oh, he also believed that the Jews had successfully organized a worldwide conspiracy against Britain and against him personally. So, he was also fair minded and rational - a great person to be in charge of Mandate Palestine in 1946. I should also note that Britain blitzed hundreds of thousands of civilians in Germany during World War II, with no attempt to distinguish between military and civilian targets. I presume you would have it that there is complete moral equivalence between the Nazis and the Brits, then. No?

Ergo
12 September 2007 at 03:37

That countries have behaved in less than ethical ways in wartime is no excuse for Israel. Many do not believe the US was justified in its nuclear attack on Hiroshima and Nagasaki nor that US and British bombing of Dresden and 30 other prominent cities was morally justifable. What are posters after who defend Israel's every move and policy? Sounds to me like they want moral support. Well that can't be forced. I should be very surprised were Israeli youths to sacrifice themselves in suicide attacks. That they do not when they have absolutely no reason to, being, after all, the occupiers with an almost limitless arsenal and US backing, is no moral endorsement whatsoever. Rather than immerging British youths into Israeli military life, wouldn't it be better to show them the more peaceful aspects of life in Israel?

spkurer
12 September 2007 at 05:23

Eartoground...'Rather than immerging British youths into Israeli military life, wouldn't it be better to show them the more peaceful aspects of life in Israel?

Eartoground-BINGO-

if for one moment people could actually address the article than using it as an excuse to lambast Israel-that's the very point. The kids go to Israel for 9 months - a very small part it doing the Marva program.

The article is mis-leading (that's a very kind word to use) at best. It has clearly mislead you as it was meant to do.

charles
12 September 2007 at 17:19

"If these were British Muslim 19 year-olds firing machine guns and running assault courses in Pakistan or Yemen, would we not have them all arrested at the airport?"

Are we? I thought that was part of the problem.

As for the comparison between CCF style youth camps with jihadi indoctrination the article's a silly joke!

Harvey
12 September 2007 at 18:19

My daughter recently returned from Israel having completed an FZY Gap year programme including Marva.

Along the way she connected with Israeli society inluding working on a Kibbutz and studying contemporary Hebrew Literature at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem where incidentally she was pleased and surprised to find a Mosque for Muslim students to worship.

Try finding a Jewish student in an Arab country and as for a synagogue........

The programme continued with a spell as a support English teacher in Nazareth and then on to helping in a home for children from broken families in Netanya.

The Marva element consisted of learning of the role of the IDF in history and modern day society and understanding the difficulties involved in having to fight assymetric warfare against elements which are prepared to use their own civilians as human shields.

Physical training was an integral part of the programme as well as the camaraderie which developed over the course.

My daughter returned to the UK a confident and independant young lady.

She did not return indoctrinated with hate for Muslims and to date neither her or her friends have commited any act of terrorism here or anywhere else.

The idea that the FZY Programme is in some way comparable to Muslims going to Jihadi training camps and learning how to commit acts of terror including homicide bombing is scurrilous.

I very much hope that the New Statesman is forced into issuing a strong apology as it did over its notorious 'Kosher Conspiracy 'article.

The New Statesman has a duty to bring balance and context to important issues.Unfortunately it has once again failed miserably in its approach to Israel and the Jewish community.

Harvey
12 September 2007 at 19:29

Just noticed several comments concerning Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall .

Both these individuals belonged to a movement called the International Solidarity Movement .

This organisation was established by Adam Shapiro and his wife whose name eludes me but Im sure someone will advise.

The movement purports to be apolitical and was created to help enforce the rights of the Palestinian people.

The reality is that Shapiro is dedicated to the dismantlement of Isreal and that far from being the apolitical organisation it claims ,it is in fact an integral non military arm of groups such as Islamic Jihad and Hamas.

Young idealistic individuals from around the world are invited to join the organisation in order to contribute to the Palestinian cause.They are used to protect the homes of families of homicide bombers from demolition.In most instances they are able to get to these houses before the IDF for the simple reason that the ISM know well in advance of the homicide bomber and his home .

For Shapiro and the ISM these young impressionable idealists are totally expendable.

It is a win win situation.If they can stop the IDF carrying out demolition all well and good .

If a Rachel Corrie happens to get killed in the process then it is a major propoganda coup.

When I put these points to a panel of ISM members at a recent film show of their work in the West Bank ,Ialso posed the question why if they were indeed an apolitical organisation did they not post members in Israel to protect buses cafes etc from homicide bombers

I was advised that the Zionists could take care of themselves.A little while later I was approached by two of their goons and asked if it was appropriate that i wasat the meeting and cordially asked to leave .

To sum up the death of Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall is without any equivocation a terrible waste of life but it must be placed in context of the cynical posture of the ISM in knowingly placing these young people in war zones and the knowledge that there was every chance that they could be killed

mrjingles
12 September 2007 at 21:05

What an insanely ridiculous article. This takes clutching at straws to a new level.

Pencils
12 September 2007 at 22:06

Harvey - that's a particularly sick way of belittling the heroism of Rachel Corrie. ISM members are well aware that they are likely to be targeted and possibly murdered by the IDF. That's why they're there. To shame you.

Harvey
12 September 2007 at 22:24

Pencils

Nobody is belittling Corries idealism or her bravery.

If you took the trouble of reading my comment you would note that my quarrel is with this cynical devious supposedly 'apolitical humanitarian ' organisation that sees fit to place untrained non combatants in highly dangerous war zones.

For future reference please try to keep your respose to the core of the comment rather then immersing yourself in the peripherals.

mrjingles
12 September 2007 at 23:37

pencils

"My take is that I don't believe it "

Thats your ignorance showing up.

"and, even if they went through the motions, can these Darfurians now buy land, marry who they like, form a political party that opposes the definition of Israel as a Jewish state ...etc."

Yes. I'm sure there's a multi-millionaire darfurian refugee amongst this group. As for asking if they can oppose Israel's status as a Jewish state, well, that wouldn't exactly be a token of gratitude would it and care to explain why anyone granted asylum by the Jewish state would want to do so? Your anti-Semitism simply compounds your ignorance.

"I would have to write a book to detail all the ways in which they are unlikely to enjoy full citizenship but as there already is a very good book let me refer you to it: ' Access Denied: Palestinian Land Rights in Israel' Zed books 2003 by Hussein Abu Hussein and Fiona McKay. "

And what are French land rights in the UK?

"Anyway, what does citizenship confer? The State recognizes Israeli citizenship but not Israeli nationality. All Jews in the world can have Israeli nationality but no non-Jews in Israel can become Israeli nationals except by conversion."

Thats interesting. Care to provide a link to back up this insanity?

Cybertiger
13 September 2007 at 08:50

@Harvey

"To sum up the death of Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall is without any equivocation a terrible waste of life but it must be placed in context of the cynical posture of the ISM in knowingly placing these young people in war zones and the knowledge that there was every chance that they could be killed."

To deflect the blame for the killings of Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall is dishonest and a typically mean trick. The pair were murdered, murdered by the IDF and NOTHING can deflect from that.

Harvey
13 September 2007 at 14:00

Cybertiger

I am not as you state wishing to deflect the deaths of Hurndall and Corrie

All deaths in this conflict are senseless and a devastating loss to both sides however it occurs.

In the caseof Hurndall,a soldier of the IDF was courtmartialled and sentenced to 8 years hard labour.

In the case of Rachel Corrie ,a full enquiry was ordered by the Israel Supreme Court. The conclusion reached was that there was no deliberate attempt by the driver of the bulldozer to deliberately target and run down Miss Corrie.

It was established by independant forensic teams that the driver sitting some 8 metres above the ground had a blind spot reaching a full 7 metres in front.

This blind spot was in fact compounded in that the massive blade was raised in order for the bulldozer to proceed.

The point of my original blog is that these volunteers should never have been placed in such dangerous cicumstances in the first place.

As I pointed out the ISM is an integral part of Hamas and Islamic Jihad .

It is dedicated to the elimination of Israel and its tactics is to provide a support network for Hamas operations including the shielding of Hamas operatives during IDF operations and the protection of homes of the familiesof homicide bombers.

It is the cynical manipulation of young idealistic voilunteers who are considered expendable by this heinous organisation which needsclose examination.

The ISM is equally if not more responsible for the deaths of Hurndall and Corrie.

I suggest you read up on some independant findings concerning the ISM before you reply.

Cybertiger
13 September 2007 at 18:08

"The ISM is equally if not more responsible for the deaths of Hurndall and Corrie."

Utter rubbish, you odious creature, Mr. Harvey!!

On the 11 August 2005, in what the Israelis apparently considered a triumph for Israeli justice, Taysir Walid Heib was sentenced to eight years in prison – the longest sentence imposed on a soldier for killing a civilian since the Second Intifada broke in 2000, the previous maximum having been 21 months for ‘conduct unbefitting a soldier’. Taysir Heib, a Bedouin, was convicted of manslaughter.

The inquest into Tom Hurndall’s death was finally held in London. At Camden Coroner’s Court, in April 2006. The jury’s statement was thus,

“We the jury unanimously agree that Mr Tomas Peter Hurndall was shot in Rafah in Gaza between 3.30 p.m. and 4.30 p.m. on 11.4.2003. He was shot intentionally with the intention to kill him. The Jury would like to express their dismay at the lack of cooperation from the Israeli authorities during this investigation.”

Tom was murdered and his murder has not been accounted for.

PS. Please also remember the deaths of Brian Avery, Iain Hook, James Miller, as well as Rachel Corrie whose cases were all dismissed by the Israeli authorities. And don't forget Iman al-Hams, the 13 year old Palestinian girl - and 931 other children whose lives have been taken by the IDF with utter impunity - since September 2000.

Harvey
13 September 2007 at 21:21

Cybertiger

Why should i be surprised that you see fit to name calling although to label me as odious when we have never even met does seem a little strong.

I will not dignify this by responding to you in future.

By the way you have no real need to hide behind the tag I can assure you no one is really too interested in you .

mrjingles
13 September 2007 at 21:26

cybertiger

The deaths of the above I won't shed a tear for. All were working in a war zone actively assisting a terrorist entity. In the case of miller again, I won't shed a tear. he was working for dreadfully biased organisation and was killed whilst filming another sick propoganda piece about the 'poor' palestinians. Its a shame it wasn't John Snow who was shot but what can you do. As for al-Hams she is another example of the sick and twisted use of children by the palestinians. She was sent to a remote IDF post with a backpack on her back to test the security of the post. Her death is squarly on the shoulders of those who sent her. As for the other 931 'children' perhaps you can provide a breakdown of how many were actively involved in hostile acts and what proof you have that all were shot by the IDF rather than by their own 'brothers' for propoganda. 99% of the time you simply hear of a death followed by 'according to palestinian witnesses'. I especially like the claim of children shot by IDF snipers. Its an odious tool but the deaths of children serve one side and one side only. As you apltluy and naively demonstrate. You need only look at the palestinian murder of 10 year old Muhammad al-dura for proof.

Pencils
14 September 2007 at 19:28

Harvey and MrJangles - well, at least you've spelt out that you think it's good to kill Palestinian children and journalists, especially BBC and Channel 4 journalists.

"As for al-Hams ..She was sent to a remote IDF post with a backpack on her back to test the security of the post..."

That's alright then. Why stop at shooting her 7 times? Why not electrocute her and drown her in the sea too, just to be on the safe side.

931 times! But they're not real children with feelings and hopes and dreams and families, are they?

sander
15 September 2007 at 03:39

Mr Holehouse.

Your article is just another example of how the media distracts people’s attention from real everyday facts about a conflict into a parody of lies and misinterpretations. Whether you believe it or not, people like you are partially responsible for this conflict not to achieve a solution. To me, either you don't understand a thing about what's really happening there, or you deliberately chose to transmit the wrong message. You should use your journalist carrier to do something FOR the world, not against it.

You are discusting.

mander
15 September 2007 at 16:48

Someone that chooses to write these type of articles must be doing from a absolute political standpoint without actual caring wether the information published may harm or transmit the wrong idea. I invite you, Mr. Holehouse, to visit the State of Isreal, to fully understand and learn how democracy reaches the everyday life of Iseraeli Jews, Israeli Arabs and Israeli Christians. Once you've done than you should pay a visit to the occupied territories and in the same way get a better idea of the ideals the leaders of most of the communities and how they are transmitted to the society. Perhaps in this way you'll see the logic and teachings of Marve whene compared to other "military" programs for youths embraced by the Palestinian Authorities or any terrorist grup in the region

Ian Fraser
16 September 2007 at 19:06

An important feature of a healthy democracy is a free and objective media that can point out hypocrisy and wrongdoing. Most people making a comment here are doing so out of a knee-jerk reaction, and over-reacting as well. There is so much spin and propaganda these days from powerful lobbies with political agendas (Project for the New American Century for example). It can be very hard to cut through the nonsense and spin. Read Mr. Holehouse's article objectively, any writer deserves that, and understand what he is actually saying. His last point, as unpalatable as it seems to supporters of Israel is both astute and accurate. Double-standards are nothing new, nor are the people who call foul when they see double-standards.

artmaltman
16 September 2007 at 20:33

New Statesman owes us all a retraction and apology for running this article. It's just yet another sick attempt to demonize Israel.

Amihai
17 September 2007 at 07:54

This article is yet another example of the New Statesman's contribution to the phenomenon of Neo-Socialism.

It is not politically correct yet, only three generations after the Jewish Holocaust, to come out and state one's anti-Semitic attitude, hence a substitute: It could be "anti-Zionism", "anti-Israel", "anti-Israeli policies", "anti-occupation", etc. All of these euphemisms represent the national movement of the Jewish people – Zionism; the most important national institution of this people during the 20th and 21st centuries – the state of Israel; and the efforts the Jewish people as a people through its nation-state, the Jewish state of Israel, has made to protect itself.

No other people, no other ethnic and national group, no other race has been subjected to such an obsessive relentless demonizing and baseless attack, without any proportion to the size of Israel - seven million people located in as small a country as Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey - and its importance in world affairs, which can only be described as an anti-Jewish racism.

Some have attempted to take their supposed Socialist outlook on world affairs and harmonize it with Islamism and/or anti-Jewish racism, hence advancing the concept of neo-Socialism, one that has taken hold in "enlightened" and "progressive" circles, largely in academe, and is promoted in and by publications such as the Guardian, the New Statesman and the London Review of Books.

I hope we, Jews, will continue to recognize this new wave for what it really is and will know how to resist it: By exposing it and the people who subscribe and promote anti-Jewish racism for what they are: Racists.

Pencils
17 September 2007 at 10:48

NadavKatzes - that's exactly the same post you put on the other thread about the Israel lobby. OK, so I do occasionally read your posts, but their content never amounts to more than virulent spam - 'troll' seems to be the word in blog etiquette. But what do you care? If your concept of 'neo-socialism' catches on maybe you'll get a better job than writing these posts, or even write a bestseller - ' Neo-Socialism: why the ideas of human and workers rights inevitably lead to secret police, death camps, the extermination of the Jews, and the castration of all white men under a world-wide Muslim caliphate.' That should do it. Feel free to use the title if you like it.

Amihai
17 September 2007 at 11:52

The "Israel Lobby", euphemism for the "Jewish Cabal" is responsible for anti-Jewish racism, concludes poster "penciles" on a different thread, after having belittled all forms of anti-Semitic expressions, including that of Nazi Germany.

This poster is a perfect example to my previous note that should be repeated:

This article is yet another example of the New Statesman's contribution to the phenomenon of Neo-Socialism.

It is not politically correct yet, only three generations after the Jewish Holocaust, to come out and state one's anti-Semitic attitude, hence a substitute: It could be "anti-Zionism", "anti-Israel", "anti-Israeli policies", "anti-occupation", etc. All of these euphemisms represent the national movement of the Jewish people – Zionism; the most important national institution of this people during the 20th and 21st centuries – the state of Israel; and the efforts the Jewish people as a people through its nation-state, the Jewish state of Israel, has made to protect itself.

No other people, no other ethnic and national group, no other race has been subjected to such an obsessive relentless demonizing and baseless attack, without any proportion to the size of Israel - seven million people located in as small a country as Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey - and its importance in world affairs, which can only be described as an anti-Jewish racism.

Some have attempted to take their supposed Socialist outlook on world affairs and harmonize it with Islamism and/or anti-Jewish racism, hence advancing the concept of neo-Socialism, one that has taken hold in "enlightened" and "progressive" circles, largely in academe, and is promoted in and by publications such as the Guardian, the New Statesman and the London Review of Books.

I hope we, Jews, will continue to recognize this new wave for what it really is and will know how to resist it: By exposing it and the people who subscribe and promote anti-Jewish racism for what they are: Racists.

Pencils
17 September 2007 at 12:05

NadavKatz

"

"penciles" on a different thread, after having belittled all forms of anti-Semitic expressions, including that of Nazi Germany. "

Oh, I can't restrain myself any more - Seig Heil ! That was sarcasm in case you missed it. Go suck on a pretzel!

Amihai
17 September 2007 at 14:36

"Sieg Heil is a German phrase, which literally means "Hail [to] Victory." During the Nazi era, it was a common chant at political rallies". Wikipedia

Such a statement coming from an anti-Jewish racist ("pencils") here is very, very fitting, very fitting indeed!!!

Pencils
17 September 2007 at 15:00

Katz - that is just pathetic. It's not even worthy of a response but what the hell... every writer I quoted is jewish. And let me add in passing that I think Dana International seems like a really nice person.

Amihai
17 September 2007 at 16:15

I have little choice but to say it again: "The 'Israel Lobby', euphemism for the 'Jewish Cabal' is responsible for anti-Jewish racism", concludes poster "penciles" on a different thread, after having belittled all forms of anti-Semitic expressions, including that of Nazi Germany, and in another post the same poster ends with "Sieg Heil", which the Wikipedia identify as follows: "Sieg Heil is a German phrase, which literally means "Hail [to] Victory." During the Nazi era, it was a common chant at political rallies".

These statements have been made here, at the New Statesman site by an anti-Jewish racist named "pencils".

This poster in my mind is a perfect example to my previous note in which I said that it is not politically correct yet, only three generations after the Jewish Holocaust, to come out and state one's anti-Semitic attitude, hence a substitute: It could be "anti-Zionism", "anti-Israel", "anti-Israeli policies", "anti-occupation", etc. All of these euphemisms represent the national movement of the Jewish people – Zionism; the most important national institution of this people during the 20th and 21st centuries – the state of Israel; and the efforts the Jewish people as a people through its nation-state, the Jewish state of Israel, has made to protect itself.

No other people, no other ethnic and national group, no other race has been subjected to such an obsessive relentless demonizing and baseless attack, without any proportion to the size of Israel - seven million people located in as small a country as Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey - and its importance in world affairs, which can only be described as an anti-Jewish racism.

Some have attempted to take their supposed Socialist outlook on world affairs and harmonize it with Islamism and/or anti-Jewish racism, hence advancing the concept of neo-Socialism, one that has taken hold in "enlightened" and "progressive" circles, largely in academe, and is promoted in and by publications such as the Guardian, the New Statesman and the London Review of Books.

I hope we, Jews, will continue to recognize this new wave for what it really is and will know how to resist it: By exposing it and the people who subscribe and promote anti-Jewish racism for what they are: Racists.

spkurer
17 September 2007 at 22:24

To the New Statesman-

You have posts-saying Seig Heil-to Jews-thinking it's a joke.

Do the writers and readers of New Statesman have any idea how incredibly offensive this is. This is way past healthy debate. It's sick.

Pencils
18 September 2007 at 14:11

See Norman Finkelstein:

Beyond Chutzpah - Chapter 3, 'Crying Wolf'.

Amihai
18 September 2007 at 14:39

I seem to have little choice but to say it again: "The 'Israel Lobby', euphemism for the 'Jewish Cabal' is responsible for anti-Jewish racism", concludes poster "penciles" with sarcasm on a different thread, after having belittled all forms of anti-Semitic expressions, including that of Nazi Germany, and in another post the same poster ends with "Sieg Heil", which the Wikipedia identify as follows: "Sieg Heil is a German phrase, which literally means "Hail [to] Victory." During the Nazi era, it was a common chant at political rallies".

These statements have been made here, at the New Statesman site by an anti-Jewish racist named "pencils".

This poster in my mind is a perfect example to my previous note in which I said that it is not politically correct yet, only three generations after the Jewish Holocaust, to come out and state one's anti-Semitic attitude, hence a substitute: It could be "anti-Zionism", "anti-Israel", "anti-Israeli policies", "anti-occupation", etc. All of these euphemisms represent the national movement of the Jewish people – Zionism; the most important national institution of this people during the 20th and 21st centuries – the state of Israel; and the efforts the Jewish people as a people through its nation-state, the Jewish state of Israel, has made to protect itself.

No other people, no other ethnic and national group, no other race has been subjected to such an obsessive relentless demonizing and baseless attack, without any proportion to the size of Israel - seven million people located in as small a country as Wales, Slovenia or New Jersey - and its importance in world affairs, which can only be described as an anti-Jewish racism.

Some have attempted to take their supposed Socialist outlook on world affairs and harmonize it with Islamism and/or anti-Jewish racism, hence advancing the concept of neo-Socialism, one that has taken hold in "enlightened" and "progressive" circles, largely in academe, and is promoted in and by publications such as the Guardian, the New Statesman and the London Review of Books.

I hope we, Jews, will continue to recognize this new wave for what it really is and will know how to resist it: By exposing it and the people who subscribe and promote anti-Jewish racism for what they are: Racists.

shahid27uk
18 September 2007 at 14:54

Well done Mr Holehouse

Only Jews from US, Britain, Canada and around the world have this privilege of joining Israeli Armed Forces, bombing, shooting and killing innocent Palestinians in Occupied Territories and returning back to their countries with clean slate, or voting by post in the US elections? There is no shortage of ex-mossad agent/trained bodyguards to hire if you are rich in London.

It is illegal under the Foreign Enlistment Act 1870 (c.90) for a British Citizen to serve in the armed forces of another country because:

“If any person, without the license of Her Majesty, being a British subject, within or without Her Majesty’s dominions, accepts or agrees to accept any commission or engagement in the military or naval service of any foreign state at war with any foreign state at peace with Her Majesty, and in this Act referred to as a friendly state, or whether a British subject or not within Her Majesty’s dominions, induces any other person to accept or agree to accept any commission or engagement in the military or naval service of any such foreign state as aforesaid,— He shall be guilty of an offence against this Act, and shall be punishable by fine and imprisonment, or either of such punishments, at the discretion of the court before which the offender is convicted; . . .”

(Annotations: Amendments (Textual) Words omitted by virtue of (E.W.) Criminal Justice Act 1948 (c. 58), s. 1(2) and (S.) Criminal Procedure (Scotland) Act 1975 (c. 21), s. 221(2))

The argument that because Israel is a democracy so therefore she can do whatever she like, break international law, take racist actions against Palestinians, break other countries law, kidnap Vanunu from Italy, use Canadian and New Zealand passports for assassinations. Don’t fool people just because a country do some ritual of voting and ignore the fundamental spirit of democracy.

More than 14,000 American Jews from across the religious spectrum serving in the Jewish state's military. According to Israeli government statistics, 4,419 are on active duty and 9,831 are in the reserves. There is no exact figure available of British Citizens serving in the Israeli Defence Forces but they are in thousands because over 30000 British Jews have moved to Israel.

Some of them must be killing and shooting Palestinians in Occupied Territories? Are they terrorist authorised and trained by a state? A London based Jewish paper published photo on front page of a Jewish British citizen Major of Israeli Armed Forces who was killed in action fighting against Hizbullah last year in Lebanon. How bizarre is that?

What if British or US citizen Pakistanis of Kashmiri origin go and fight against occupying Indian forces in Jamu and Kashmir? What if British or US citizen Palestinians and Arabs go and fight with Israeli occupying forces? Would they be called terrorist? Would they become terrorist or freedom fighters participating in a legitimate freedom struggle recognised by the United Nation?

British Jews should make up their mind about their loyalties. They should not use anti Semitic blackmail in everything. People do recognise their sufferings but don’t force feed them. They can join Territorial Army and serve this nation where they are enjoying the privileges. It is not fair on the British Tax payers.

Amihai
18 September 2007 at 16:11

I thought readers may be interested in reading a direct translation of a document from the Hebrew instead of speculating regarding it without knowing a thing about it. Well, here it is,

The Spirit of The IDF:

The Ethical Code of the Israel Defence Forces

________________________________________

1. The Spirit of the IDF is an expression of the identity, values and norms of the IDF. It underlies every action performed in the IDF by each and every serviceman and servicewoman. (Hereafter the term servicemen will be construed as applying to both servicemen and servicewomen.)

2. The Spirit of the IDF comprises eleven core IDF values. It defines and presents the essence of each of them, and includes basic principles which express these values.

3. The Spirit of the IDF draws its values and basic principles from three traditions:

a. The tradition of the Jewish People throughout its history.

b. The tradition of the State of Israel, its democratic principles, laws and institutions.

c. The tradition of the IDF and its military heritage as the Israel Defense Forces.

4. The Spirit of the IDF is the ethical code by which all IDF enlisted personnel, officers, units and corps act. It is the norm to guide them in forming their patterns of behavior. They are expected to educate and critically evaluate themselves and others in accordance with these values and principles.

5. The complex nature of military activity in general, and combat in particular, may generate tensions with the values and basic principles of The Spirit of the IDF, and may raise problems of judgment about the proper balance needed between theory and practice.

The obligation to fulfill the mission and ensure military victory will be the compass guiding any effort to balance these values and basic principles of The Spirit of the IDF. The striving for proper balance according to this compass will make it possible to preserve the IDF as a body of high quality, imbued with values, and which fulfills its duties and missions appropriately.

Perseverance in Mission

The IDF serviceman will fight and conduct himself with courage in the face of all dangers and obstacles; he will persevere in his mission courageously, resolutely and thoughtfully even to the point of endangering his own life.

The perseverance of IDF servicemen in their mission is their capability and readiness to fight courageously in the face of danger and in most challenging situations; to strive unremittingly to achieve the military goal effectively, with full regard for the particular circumstances, notwithstanding any difficulty, stress or adversity or even mortal danger. They will do so with proper judgment and with due regard for risks.

Comradeship

The IDF serviceman will always go to the aid of his comrades when they need his help or depend on him, despite any danger or difficulty, even to the point of risking his life.

The fellowship of IDF servicemen is their bond as comrades in arms. It is their unwavering commitment to each other, their readiness to extend appropriate assistance, to go to the aid of a comrade, and even risk their lives on his behalf. In all their actions they will uphold and strengthen the solidarity of their unit in full cooperation with other units, and in support of the overall goals of the IDF.

Discipline

The IDF serviceman will execute completely and successfully all that is required of him according to the letter and spirit of his orders and within the framework of the law.

The discipline of IDF servicemen is their readiness to act to the full extent of their abilities, to carry out what is demanded of them completely, according to their understanding of the letter of the orders they have received, and successfully, according to the spirit of their orders. It is their readiness to obey orders amidst a constant striving to execute them with understanding and dedication. They will take care to issue only legal orders, and disavow manifestly illegal orders.

Human Life

The IDF serviceman will, above all, preserve human life, in the recognition of its supreme value and will place himself or others at risk solely to the extent required to carry out his mission.

The sanctity of life in the eyes of the IDF servicemen will find expression in all of their actions, in deliberate and meticulous planning, in safe and intelligent training and in proper execution of their mission. In evaluating the risk to self and others, they will use the appropriate standards and will exercise constant care to limit injury to life to the extent required to accomplish the mission.

Loyalty

The IDF serviceman will act with complete dedication in the defense of the State of Israel and its citizens, according to IDF orders, within the framework of the laws of the State and democratic principles.

The loyalty of IDF servicemen is their dedication, in all actions, to their homeland, the State of Israel, its citizens and armed forces, and their constant readiness to fight and devote all their power, even at the risk of their own lives, in the defense of the sovereign State of Israel and the lives and the safety of its inhabitants, according to the values and orders of the IDF, while following the laws and the democratic principles of the State.

Personal Example

The IDF serviceman will comport himself as is required of him and will, himself, act as he demands of others, thoughtfully and dedicatedly, aware of his ability and responsibility to serve as a role model to those around him.

The personal example of the IDF servicemen is their acting as is demanded of them and as they themselves demand of others, their clear and convincing readiness to serve as an example to those around them, in their actions and comportment, to create, uphold and foster mutual identification and joint responsibility in properly carrying out their tasks and accomplishing their missions in all areas of military activity.

Professionalism

The IDF serviceman will aspire to be familiar with and understand the body of knowledge pertaining to his military position and will master every skill necessary for carrying out his duties.

The professionalism of IDF servicemen is their ability to correctly perform their military duties through striving to constantly excel in and improve their unit's and their individual achievements. They will do so by broadening their knowledge, and increasing proficiency, based upon the lessons of experience and study of the heritage and by expanding and deepening their understanding of the body of military knowledge.

Purity of Arms

The IDF serviceman will use force of arms only for the purpose of subduing the enemy to the necessary extent and will limit his use of force so as to prevent unnecessary harm to human life and limb, dignity and property.

The IDF servicemen's purity of arms is their self-control in use of armed force. They will use their arms only for the purpose of achieving their mission, without inflicting unnecessary injury to human life or limb; dignity or property, of both soldiers and civilians, with special consideration for the defenseless, whether in wartime, or during routine security operations, or in the absence of combat, or times of peace.

Representativeness

The IDF serviceman will constantly see himself as a representative and an emissary of the IDF. As such he will act solely on the basis of the authority he has been given and orders he has been issued.

The representativeness of IDF servicemen is their consciousness, expressed in all their actions, that the armed force placed in their hands and the power to use it are given to them only as members of the IDF and its authorized representatives, duly executing their orders in accordance with the laws of the State of Israel and is subject to its Government.

Responsibility

The IDF serviceman will see himself as an active participant in the defense of his country and its citizens. He will carry out his duties decisively, resolutely and with vigor, within the limits of his authority.

The responsibility of IDF servicemen is their active partnership and their readiness to use their utmost abilities in the defense of the State, its sovereignty, and the lives and safety of its citizens, within the framework of authority granted them by the IDF. They will carry out their duties fully, diligently, and with determination, commitment and initiative, in clear awareness that they are answerable for any consequences.

Trustworthiness

The IDF serviceman will strive in all his actions to fulfill his duties correctly and at the highest professional level, from exacting and thorough preparation to true, honest, complete and precise reporting.

The trustworthiness of IDF servicemen is their reliability in fully carrying out their charge, using their military skills, with the sincere belief and conviction that they are acting professionally. They are ready at all times to present things as they are, in planning, executing and reporting truthfully, completely, courageously and honestly.

Basic Principles

A. Values

1. The IDF serviceman will, in all his actions and conduct, express the basic values of the IDF:

Perseverance in the mission, comradeship, discipline, respect for human life, loyalty, personal example, professionalism, purity of arms, representativeness, responsibility, and trustworthiness, as defined above and as appropriate to the specific circumstances.

2. The IDF serviceman, when acting in the framework of his military role, will be ever cognizant that he bears responsibility not only for the outcomes of his acts and omissions, but also for the patterns of behavior which they help to create, whether by order or personal example, by direct or indirect influence, whether intentionally or unintentionally.

B. On Military Service

3. The IDF serviceman will view himself, in each of his actions, as bearing full responsibility for the lives and safety of the servicemen and all others who are dependent on his actions or decisions.

4. The IDF serviceman will be ready to place his own life at risk when confronting the enemy or to save human life to the extent required, but he will preserve his own life and that of others in all other military situations.

5. The IDF serviceman will take into account, in every practical context, not only the proper concern for human life, but also the influence his actions may have on the physical well-being and spiritual integrity and dignity of others.

6. The IDF serviceman will endeavor fully to exercise his capabilities as called upon in accordance with the priorities assigned by the IDF to combat, command, combat support and combat service support roles.

7. The IDF serviceman, in all his actions, will take care to uphold the honor of the State, its institutions, monuments and symbols, including the honor of the IDF and its symbols.

8. .The IDF serviceman will show special respect for the fallen of the IDF. The serviceman will behave with deference in ceremonies, at memorial sites, and at memorial and honor ceremonies, and will treat bereaved families with proper respect.

9. The IDF serviceman will maintain the tradition of the IDF by showing honor and respect for IDF wounded and disabled.

10. The IDF serviceman will maintain the tradition of the IDF, will study the IDF's military heritage and will promote esprit de corps.

11. The IDF serviceman will carry out his military activities without obtruding his personal views in matters beyond his sphere of responsibility, authority and professional expertise. He will take special care not to inject his personal opinions on issues subject to public controversy of a political, social or ideological nature.

12. The IDF serviceman will make use of his military authority or status, whether command or professional, solely for the benefit of the IDF. He will never use his military authority or status improperly to advance a personal objective, or to go beyond the limits of his authority and responsibility, in letter or spirit, within or without the IDF.

13. The IDF serviceman will hold himself responsible for the outcomes of his orders. He will support those who have acted in accordance with those orders or as is proper, and will view himself as responsible for the patterns of behavior which he imposed.

14. The IDF serviceman will support his unit and its commanders in every way necessary to fulfill the unit's mission of building, promoting and employing military force. The serviceman will obey his commanders in accordance with the law and maintain respect for his commanders, peers and subordinates.

15. The IDF servicemen will never conspire to conceal any offense or mishap, and will not entertain any proposal to be party to such a conspiracy. When confronted with an offense or mishap, the serviceman will act as is reasonable and proper to correct the aberration.

16. The IDF serviceman who participates in a discussion or dispute dealing with an activity in which the IDF is involved, whether before, during or after its implementation, will express his views in accordance with his professional knowledge and conviction, with honesty, candor and courage.

17. The IDF serviceman will use the authority at his disposal towards others only as is fair, self-controlled, reasonable and professional. He will show due respect for the person and the privacy of those with whom he interacts.

18. The IDF serviceman will view his appearance in an IDF uniform as an expression of his loyalty to the values and basic principles of the IDF.

C. When Confronting the Enemy

19. The IDF serviceman will use the force at his disposal, in all actions in the face of the enemy, manifesting perseverance in his mission, courage and judgment, always ready to carry out his duties despite danger to his life.

20. The IDF serviceman will be ready to do whatever is required, and even to endanger his own life, to come to the aid of his comrades or to recover wounded comrades from the battlefield.

21. The IDF serviceman will act, when confronting the enemy, according to the letter and spirit of the laws of war. He will adhere strictly to the principle of purity of arms and to the ethics of combat.

22. The IDF serviceman will treat enemy troops and civilians in areas controlled by the IDF in accordance with the letter and spirit of the laws of war and will not exceed the limits of his authority.

23. The IDF serviceman will act fairly with self-control, reasonably, and professionally, in carrying out the responsibilities of his position, in all his contacts with civilians in areas controlled by the IDF, whether in the course of battle or afterward. He will show respect towards the beliefs, values, sacred and historical sites of all civilians and military personnel as they deem proper and to the extent possible, in keeping with the values and basic principles of the IDF and in accordance with military needs and the given circumstances.

24. The IDF serviceman will fight and exert himself to the utmost, even placing his life at risk so as not to surrender to the enemy but to overcome him. He will not surrender as long as he has a chance of carrying out his mission. Even in the absence of such a possibility, he will not surrender as long as he has contact with his commander or the ability to extricate himself from his compromised position.

25. The IDF serviceman who, despite all efforts, has been taken prisoner will act according to IDF orders; responsibly, reasonably and honorably.

D. Relations with Civilian Bodies

26. The IDF serviceman will give preference to promoting the IDF's goals, as is required of him, in accordance with regulations, orders, values and basic principles, over the advancement of the goals of any civilian body, in any instance of conflict of interests between the IDF's goals and those of that body.

27. The IDF serviceman, in all official contact with civilian bodies, will act professionally and without compromising the IDF's values, basic principles or honor.

28. The IDF serviceman may be involved in the activities of a commercial or civilian body only in accordance with the letter and spirit of existing orders and procedures, and within the limits of his position.

29. The IDF serviceman will refrain from receiving personal benefits as a result of his position, rank, status or actions. He will not request, nor will he agree to accept any favors from any agent, inside or outside the IDF, directly or indirectly, for himself or others, except in accordance with due orders and procedures.

30. The IDF serviceman will ensure that every public appearance, especially in the mass media, has prior approval, expresses outright and unreserved loyalty to the value and basic principles of the IDF, reflects the IDF's policies and decisions, and contributes to the public's confidence in the IDF.

31. The IDF serviceman will ensure that his behavior even in private circumstances cannot be interpreted as compromising the IDF's values or basic principles, does not detract from the public's confidence in the IDF, and will not contribute to the creation of patters and behavior that could harm the implementation of the IDF's values and basic principles.

E. Reserve Duty and Retirement

32. The IDF serviceman, during his reserve duty, will act according to the same values and basic principles of the IDF as those that apply to servicemen in regular service.

33. The discharged serviceman may make private use of special or sensitive information which he gained or which came to his attention during his service only after he has received the proper authorization to make commercial media or other such use of such knowledge outside of the IDF framework.

34. The discharged serviceman may make use of his military status, including his reserve or retired rank, or may grant permission to others to do so, only in civilian contexts that do not compromise the IDF's values and basic principles, or its honor and the trust which it enjoys in the public mind.

Pencils
18 September 2007 at 16:28

Nadav Katz -" I thought readers may be interested in reading a direct translation of a document from the Hebrew instead of speculating regarding it without knowing a thing about it. Well, here it is,

The Spirit of The IDF: The Ethical Code of the Israel Defence Forces "

I wonder what in the responses to your previous posts could have given you the idea that there would be any interest in your further offerings.

It occurred to me that it's just possible that someone might read NadavKatz' accusation in some posts above that I engaged in holocaust 'belittlement' on another thread, so I've posted below the post from the other thread he refers to. To say more is superfluous, but it was in response to someone who asked why jews are universally disliked - I argued that they are not.

" Dennyboo - That sounds like a possible trap that could give NadavKatz scope to depict us as racists, but I'll answer in a roundabout way (though I disagree, obviously, that Jews have always been disliked or are still): read Hannah Arendt's book 'the Origins of Totalitarianism' - I disagree with much of the direction of her thought but it's all interesting especially the long chapter ' the Origins of antisemitism' which is often quoted and is the best answer I can think of to your question above - she shows that there were often good reasons for the dislike of Jews in Europe pre-19th century, whether or not the Jews had any choice about their situation. Israel Shahak's book 'Jewish History, Jewish Religion' is shorter and more correct than Arendt and is also essential, as for modern times is Norman Finkelstein's 'the Holocaust Industry' and Peter Novick's 'the Holocaust in American Life'. Novick is roughly in agreement with the author Philip Roth that the only belief that American Jews grow up with is that they are special and superior: that could get up people's noses. All these writers are Jews, by the way. Another jewish writer Kinky Friedman ( amusing in his early books but reactionary and ultimately obnoxious) has a phrase that sums up the likes of NadavKatz perfectly - " a black belt in Jewish whining".

I dispute that Jews were always disliked in the Muslim world. I know that NadavKatz has a list of massacre he likes to roll out on every occasion, but the human race has a very brutal history and massacres and persecutions for any excuse have been our common history; the treatment of the Jews in medieval times compares very favourably with the treatmant of left-handed people, redheads, women, homosexual, and any group following any variation from whatever the dominant strain was of any religion in any area. There is, much to the chagrin of the zionists, still a large and well-integrated jewish population in Iran. And remember that, no matter how things turned out, the nazis' primary targets for extermination were the slavs and the communists ( and the disabled) not the Jews. The original intention was to 'evict' the jews, the extermination being an improvisation due to evolving circumstances - I think that is the conclusion of Christopher Browning in his 'origins of the final solution', the most up-to-date assessment, universally praised.

So I maintain if Jews are widely disliked today it is due to the success of the Israel lobby in depicting themselves as the voice of the Jews, rather than of what they are - a collection of interest groups that includes some jewish elites. "

mia
18 September 2007 at 20:29

I sat and read this article and was shocked at the blatant lies being said.

I would like to say a few things... firstly i took part in Gadna this year being good friends with that "breathless" girl you spoke of. The quotation you took was took completely out of context, as i have the article, and you changed what she said.

The IDF is a defence force- defence being the operative word. Living in a very anti-semitic world- israel needs to protect itself- especially since it is surrounded by enemies on every border. Gadna and Marva is NOT training youths to kill at ALL! All it is letting a group of people experience what army life is like... we were constantly told on Gadna that shooting and killing is only the last resort- the IDF is all about protecting the country of Israel. The IDF needs people, due to the constant anti-semitism (you for a fact do not make this any easier i blame people like you for when i experience anti-semetic attacks ) People have alot of determination to exterminate the Jews and the IDF try and make sure this never occurs. Not once was i told while partaking in Gadna that i "must kill the enemy" not in ANY sense of the imagination.

The reason why they occur is just to inform Jewish teenagers about the problems israel face and show all the difficulties people in israel have to live with.

The comparison you made is simply not correct

Harvey
18 September 2007 at 20:30

Nadav

I note your detailed and painstaking translation of the IDF Ethical Code of Conduct.

However I should point out to you that detailed missives of this nature tend to regretfully fall on very deaf ears.

Articles relating to Israel tend to produce extremely polarised responses.

On such a website as this you will find as in current attitudes to Israel an unholy alliance between the Islamofascist and the far left. Normally these two heinous ideologies would avoid each other like the plague . However,their overriding visceral hatred of the USA and Israel puts them allbeit perhaps temporarily in the same bed.

It is important to note the almost compulsive obsession with Israel and its microscopic examination of Israels response to acts of aggression

Although both groups are vociferous in their denial that this overt Anti Zionism is linked to anti semitism the opposite is in fact the case.

Once one overcomes the bluster and howls of derision that accompany such an assertion it is quite simple to uncover this unpalatable fact.

As you are doubtlessly aware ,here in the UK this union has sought to demonise Israel alone mendaciously labelling it a rascist state.

The fact that Israel subscibes to the founding tenets of the 1947 UN Charter unlike the rest of the Muslim world is conveniently ignored.The fact that Israel is constantly under threat of Muslim aggression and in the transparent utterances of Iran ,outright annhilation,is considered acceptable.

This singling out of Israel alone cannot be construed as mere Anti Zionism.

When challenged over the unabating genocide taking place in Darfur which has left 500,000 dead tribesmen there is only a resounding apathy and silence.

The lack of measured response to this and other atrocities and not forgetting the expotential growth in Islamic terror enables one to simply come to the conclusion that there is a virulent form of antisemitism present in both groups.

Naturally ,this remains selective especially when dealing with the media , but whether it is the socialist middle class dinner parties of Islington or the Mosque in Bradford ,behind closed doors it is one and the same.Overt hatred of Jews.

My advice to you is to avoid lengthy responses to bloggers such as the previous individual whose contributions are rascist and antisemitic although because of the cowardly and contemptible natureof this odious individual seeks to conceal his hate behind the contribution of other antisemites. To his warped mind the Holocaust was 'an improvisation due to evolving circumstances.

Well I guess that explains it -just a slight overreaction in the chain of command.

As I say stay clear of the bigots ,you only fuel their hatred.

Chag Sameach

Shona Tovah

Harvey and family

Harvey
18 September 2007 at 20:56

Shahid

Just one important inaccuracy in your detailed blog

The Americans and Brits who you refer to have in fact decided to emigrate to Israel .They have Israeli citezenship.They cannot join or fight with the IDF unless this absolute condition is met .

This is in stark contrast to British Muslims who actively seek Jihad and fight British forces in Irak and Afghanistan .These individuals have not first renounced their British citezenship but have chosen to be illegal combatants.

This makes them traitors which I believe is still subject to capital punishment..

Unfortunately this law has not been implemented since 1946 when the traitor known as Lord Haw Haw was executed for subversion and propoganda for the Nazis during WW2.

As a solid patriotic Englishman I am sure you will agree like me that this is an apt and neccessary response to our own home grown deviants misfits and traitors.Regretfully I doubt whether this ultimate sanction will ever see the light of day again -more the pity!

Amihai
18 September 2007 at 21:01

Harvey, thank you for your kind words, and shanah tovah to you, your family and the rest of beit israel.

Nadav

Jerusalem, Israel

Harvey
18 September 2007 at 21:11

Mia

This is a wholly mischievous article designed to shift copies and maintain its notorious anti Israel stance.

As previously stated you will not engage with the activists visiting this site.They are beyond reasoned argument .

My daughter was on Marva last year .Like you I am sure,she has returned an independant ,responsible ,member of BRITISH society.

To date she has not sought to blow up her fellow citizens -nor has she declared her open hatred of her fellow citizens.Somehow I knew that would be the case!

sonicdeathmonkey
19 September 2007 at 09:31

"a black belt in Jewish whining"!!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhHAhAHAhahahaHAaaaaaaaaaa

Harvey and Nadav Katz, I would appreciate it if you read through all of Pencils detailed and well-evidenced arguments because he's very, very right and you are very, very wrong. I am heartened that someone actually has the time and patience to retort to your dissembling and reactionary diatribe.

Harvey
19 September 2007 at 10:08

Sonic Death Monkey

Methinks your handle is perhaps indicative of both your IQ and age-does 15 sound about right .

Amihai
19 September 2007 at 11:29

Sonic, I have read and concluded that we are dealing here with a clinical case of racism, anti-Jewish racism in this case. You see, I come from a very long line of people who know how to detect such clinical illness.

Nadav

MichaelH
19 September 2007 at 13:08

The reaction is just ever so slightly overwrought.

It seems some over-enthusiastic supporters of Israel struggle to differentiate between opinions they disagree with and media bias.

Harvey
19 September 2007 at 14:12

Michael H

Please amplify

Whose reactions were slightly overwrought

Personally I can live with and argue with media bias.

However ,I would agree with Nadav, certain regular contributors to this web site are failing to come to terms with their rascist opinions

I for one have no difficulty differentiating between the two.

Pencils
19 September 2007 at 14:43

Boo!

MichaelH
19 September 2007 at 14:49

I had in mind one particular website that specialises in 'overwrought' and has been directing its' readers to leave comments about how 'shocking' the article is.

Matthew A. Sawtell
19 September 2007 at 19:06

When I read this article, I had to chuckle to myself and thought about a line from the Pulp Fiction, "Once your gone, you stay gone - consider your L.A. privileges revolked."

If someone is dumb enough to leave home to go to a foreign "homeland" - do not expect to looked at as "one of the guys" when you get back.

It will be interesting to see the first lawsuits from these kids when employers fail to hire them - due to their gun-totting pictures on MySpace and/or Facebook.

Harvey
19 September 2007 at 19:53

On the contrary Matthew

Virtually all these kids return home possessing enhanced leadership skills can think on their feet andstay calm under pressure.

They take up university offers and are then snapped up by industry .the professions etc .

I can vouch for that as my son was recently taken on by

Price Waterhouse .His experience wasa positive asset not a liability.

Incidentally dont believe the propoganda-there are no gun toting pictures-

This is about kids learning about the history of theIDF,maintaining strict code of military ethics in the face of an enemy well versed in assymetric warfare including the use of civilian shields.

This is combined with a tough physical training and discpline.

As already stated they return stronger independant and ready to make a contribution to family and society.

They do not return primed to murder their fellow citizens or brainwashed into believing those of different religion or culture are inferior.

Like Clint Eastwood said in Dirty Harry-Dont believe all you read in the news.

haratiobrooks
19 September 2007 at 20:07

Ok well, well, well first things first, I feel that Mr. Matthew Holehouse needs to examine both his journalistic ability and integrity. I have read the article by Aimee Riese in the JC and I would like to point out that you manipulated quotes from Miss Riese’s article in order to make the article sound controversial and interesting then it actually it is. Out of interest how long did you spend skimming through the JC, trying to find an article remotely controversial for you to base this article on hmmmm I think maybe all of five seconds, you might of glanced the headline, but it is clear you did not take the time to read the whole article in detail. Also my friend like many other who have commented on this article before me how exactly does one write breathlessly ?

MichaelH
19 September 2007 at 23:18

It does raise the question of why people think that wearing combat fatigues and running around with an M-16 might have anything to do with "enhanced leaderahip skills" and the ability"to make a contribution to family and society. "

It's mostly about moulding young minds to more readily accept imposed authority and suspend normal ethical judgement in deference to nationalistic mythology.

Anyone who doubts this should visit the 'Breaking the Slience' website.

On the general issues raised by Holehouse, 'Child Recruitment in Israel' is also informative.

Harvey
20 September 2007 at 11:04

Michael

You speak with some authority

Can I take it that you have in fact been on the Israel Gap Year including the Marva programme.

Or is it as I suspect selective use of negative second hand propoganda which fits in well with your own prejudices ,myths and stereotypes.

Something tells me it is the latter.

In order to gain a complete picture ,and of course one that is your own, I would suggest according to your circumstances a short stay in Israel.

We all need the occassional reality check!

shwakes
20 September 2007 at 12:23

A fair reflection of what goes on at Gadna (that's the one I did when I was 18) and Marva. The problem as I see it is the juxtaposition between potential Islamic Jihad trained suicide bombers and 18 year old Jews on a year out. Yes it does sound peculiar that a bunch of 18 year olds would run around with guns (when we did it we didn't do any running around we spent about 20 mins on the rifle range with M15s and ages learning about how to respect guns and how they're important for a solider) when they're supposed to be on a gap year. Apart from the nature of actual guns the week (we did a week) was actually more about discipline and group work than anything else.

The other thing to appreciate is that like it or not Israel is a state that depends on its military in a way that many other nations don't have to. It is ingrained in the Israeli culture that service in the army is important and about being an Israeli.

I don't condemn Matthew's piece however I do question his use of the line "most hard-line organisers of gap years" with respect to FZY. I don't actually know what hard-line is supposed to refer to but in my experience FZY is no different from many of the other Jewish youth groups. I do question the asertion that if these were 19 year old Muslim's then we'd want them arrested at the airport - well there's nothing secret about these "camps" and no one (I hope) is suggesting that these kids are being trained to run around the UK with machine guns or worse.

MichaelH
20 September 2007 at 14:52

"Or is it as I suspect selective use of negative second hand propoganda which fits in well with your own prejudices ,myths and stereotypes.

Something tells me it is the latter. " - Harvey

Of course.

azazel
20 September 2007 at 17:27

Israel is jewish, israel is very jewish...oops I am not supposed to say that; that is anti-semitic I've to be careful...!!!!! Jews are human beings....oops I am not supposed to say that either, it's anit-semitic too. We shouldn't say or write anything about jews becuase Shadad(God) gave a brand to those who dare to do so. Since Elohim has chosen the jewish people to be his FAVOURITE CHILDREN above all mankind, any criticism of his chosen people is cursed by him and therefore deserve the brand (Anti-semitic).

Please all British people, you are wrong, do not publish such hatred articles about Adoni's CHOSEN CHILDREN!!!!! are yuou out of your minds. In a nutshull, get yourselves conditioned to these absolute facts: 1- There are and have not been any jewish terrorist, murderes, thiefs, rapist or any king of crimes that Gentiles do. 2- Israel is always right because God says so. 3- All British and Europeans are anti-semtic by nature unless proved otherwise.

I awaiting to be branded in the next comment!!!

Shalom

Amihai
20 September 2007 at 17:42

The concept of closeness, Azasel, has little to do with being better, yet it has everything to do with being called upon to fulfill certain commandments and teachings, all of which have to do with ethical values.

If religion, any religion, is a man made set of beliefs and conduct of life, the Hebrew/Israelite/Jewish people has accepted and took upon itself such set of ethical values, hence has become in the eyes of its members the collective chosen to advance such ethical values, first and foremost through self-example.

Perhaps, just perhaps if you knew a bit more about the subject you would not be the cynic that you are. I hope you are not too lazy to go and delve into the matter so that we can continue this conversation based on some true knowledge in the subject.

P.S. One simple example: The fact that there is a day of rest each week throughout much if not most of humanity today is due to Jewish advancement of this value; or if you will, the people who have advanced this value upon humanity have seen themselves to be chosen and privileged to do so. Would you have suggested that we all go to seven days of work? Indeed, many of the leading figures who have promoted the concept of eight hours of work per day have also been members of this chosen collective.

Matthew A. Sawtell
20 September 2007 at 19:21

Sorry Harvey,

While I tend not to "Believe the Hype" when it comes to news articles - this particular story does make me pause. It reminds of various stories I have heard from the Jewish side of my family - who talk in awe about "going back to the motherland", but yet make sure to keep their American passports close at hand. One does not serve two masters very well.

As for the issue of teaching a child discpline and/or leadership skills - are there or are there not several fine military/boarding schools in Europe and America? Does not U.S. Armed Forces have R.O.T.C. programs in most of the major universties? I am sure those institutions are still well received by employers, yes? Why truck a child halfway around the world when a solution is closer to home?

mrjingles
20 September 2007 at 19:32

azazel

"Israel is jewish, israel is very jewish...oops I am not supposed to say that; that is anti-semitic I've to be careful"

I love it when you muslims get so obsessed with the Jews. You make such fools of yourselves with all your whining. Keep it up.

mrjingles
20 September 2007 at 19:38

Sawtell

" I have heard from the Jewish side of my family - who talk in awe about "going back to the motherland", but yet make sure to keep their American passports close at hand. One does not serve two masters very well. "

Interesting becuase I've NEVER heard ANY Jew use that term. Either you're a wannabe pretend Jew or come from a wierd family.

"As for the issue of teaching a child discpline and/or leadership skills - are there or are there not several fine military/boarding schools in Europe and America? Does not U.S. Armed Forces have R.O.T.C. programs in most of the major universties? I am sure those institutions are still well received by employers, yes? Why truck a child halfway around the world when a solution is closer to home?"

Another ignorant comment. You believe parents SEND their kids on these courses? Against their will perhaps? Further I think you'll find that if the UK was attacked by or suffered the kind of barbaric terrorism Israel faces a great many ex-pats would be just as happy to come home to the Uk and join the fight. Would you turn these people away?

mrjingles
20 September 2007 at 19:42

pencils

"That's alright then. Why stop at shooting her 7 times? Why not electrocute her and drown her in the sea too, just to be on the safe side."

As usual baseless lies for idiotic propoganda.

"931 times! But they're not real children with feelings and hopes and dreams and families, are they?"

And of these you have concrete evidence they were all killed by IDF fire? Please provide this evidence. Only one side benefits from killing children and you know very well its the arabs.

Harvey
20 September 2007 at 19:49

Michael H

What a pity that you should take the easy option.

Any fool can swallow the hype that comes out of blindly accepting second hand opinions and propoganda depending on the authors political persuasion.

The only way to come to an informed balanced opinion is to get out there and investigate for yourself.

A few weeks of sun sea and sites -holy ones -would at enable you to make a more informed judgement.

And no I dont work for the Israeli tourist board!

Harvey
20 September 2007 at 21:04

Nadav /Mr Jingles

I have previously blogged that it is utterly futile to attempt to engage with elements such as Azazel ,Pencils and the like.

You are wasting your time and mental energy.

Furthermore they thrive on your responses no matter how calm or reasonable and open to debate you are.

You may hope to present another side to the story but you are dealing with hopelessly entreched bigotry and hatred of Jews.

This prevents them forever from engaging with you in open debate concerning the problems facing both Israeli and Palestinian society.

The antisemite masks his hatred behind the new catch all guise of being anti Zionist -as we all know some of his best friends are Jews or in the case of Sawtell has even managed to conjure up a long lost Jewish family.

Thats bull for public consumption .Scratch a little deeper and you will find the Jew hater will revert to type in his 'off the air moments'.

Today Muslim websites are obsessed with Jews and Israel as if they have not got enough of their own problems to confront. Islamist teachings in Mosques on a world wide basis are disseminating the most vile and visceral hatred of Jews comparable to the Nazis

Finally Nadav and friends remember that in each generation a new Amalek rises up to destroy the Jewish people . They fail and whither like the weeds in a garden .

Be proud of who you are and the myriad of great contributions to mankind in every field of human endeavour.Compare this to our detractors and quietly note the contrary.The nihilism of their hatred and cruelty even towards their own kind .

As nature does not support a vacumn ,nor does the human condition sustain evil -witness the twin scourges of Communism and Nazis and their collapse. So it will be with the new evil of Islamism.

I would like to wish you

Chag Sameach

and Shanah Tovah

Harvey and Family

Jane Greene
20 September 2007 at 21:38

Well I've just been sick you sad racist fucks.

Matthew A. Sawtell
20 September 2007 at 23:13

Harvey,

Tsk-Tsk, from a naunced debate to a flame fest in only two messages? As for my family, let us just say we can take a few insults. As for the issue of terrorism in England - I do believe there are quite a few survivors of the I.R.A. bombing campaigns, plus the survivors of 7/7, that would disagree with your assessment about levels of threat.

I am curious - for an older man as yourself to lose your temper in such a quick fashion in cyberspace, do you also tend to have bouts of anger in real life?

MichaelH
21 September 2007 at 00:04

"Any fool can swallow the hype that comes out of blindly accepting second hand opinions and propoganda depending on the authors political persuasion." - Harvey

I find it interesting that opinions you disagree with can only be propaganda. Even more interesting that news is only "second-hand opinion". Of course if you actually beleived this, as oppossed to using it as silly debating tactic, you wouldn't be writing comments here which is, in efect, asking us to accept "second-hand opinions" from an anonymous commenter.

The hysterical flap that the pro-Israel mob get into over articles like this one are mostly counter-productive.

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 05:22

And I thought the nearly blue blooded lady Greene would be a gentle woman, reflected in both her manners and language. But sadly I was mistaken!

spkurer
21 September 2007 at 08:31

Re Harvey

I just wanted to agree with Harvey-

Kol Ha Cavod to Nadav and co-for their efforts-but there are mighty few minds who are responding who are in the slightest bit interested in rational debate.

It is clear there are a very small number of anti-semites who follow these posts. Indeed besides 3 or 4 of them and 3 or 4 'of us' no-one is followin this-which I for one find very reassuring.

The New Statesman is a fringe paper with a miniscule readership (surprise,surprise). Some-one there is either pathologically obsessed with Jewish/Israel issues and therefore finds the need to bash them out of all proportion-or they think (this is a very generous view)-Jews are News and therefore sells copy.

Bottom line-maybe our energy should be saved for more serious debate.

Shalom to all

Pencils
21 September 2007 at 09:26

Spunker - you wouldn't know a serious debate if it bit you on the arse.

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 09:59

Spkurer, the one-liners are out again, with very deep contributions to the subject at hand, very deep....!!!

Harvey
21 September 2007 at 10:14

Matthew

I do apologise -there I was thinking I had written a balanced measured analysis of contemporary antisemitism,and I am accused of being angry.

Next time I will Xrate my entries so that the faint hearted can shut their eyes.

PS the smelling salts are in the post

Harvey
21 September 2007 at 10:32

Michael

Like i said in my previous entry ,for a true assessment you need to get out there and use your own God given senses to formulate your own opinion

rather then accept someone elses judgement of the political and social landscape,

Otherwise you are a mere bystander lapping up whatever suitsyour preconceived opinions.

I have travelled and worked throughout the Middle East

I have lived for a time in Israel.My opinions are based on my own experiences ,not just from the Guardian or the Telegraph.

What are your opinions and conclusions based on?

Harvey
21 September 2007 at 10:34

Jane

Try to do it in your sleep next time

RedDaybreak
21 September 2007 at 10:59

You complain about this publication a lot Spkurer, if it bothers you that much why read it? You say it has a miniscule readership. Do you know that for a fact? How big is the readership? Or are you integrating a rather silly assumption into what you flatter yourself is serious contribution to this debate? Lastly, the last time I checked the editor of the staggers was John Kampfner - I wonder what the provenance of that name is...

Jane Greene
21 September 2007 at 11:01

Sorry! I was just thinking out loud and obviously kept typing.

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 11:14

Jane was just fantasizing.....

Robert Powell
21 September 2007 at 11:50

...about an impotent jackbooted sexist.

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 12:02

Well, well, well, I did not realize that Jane and Robert had somehting going on between them, wel, well, well.....

That explains a number of things.....

Robert Powell
21 September 2007 at 12:21

Oh that famous Jewish sense of humour ... one stereotype you've laid to rest Herr Katz - under a ton of concrete on...

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 12:58

Yes, that explains a number of things, even this latest Robert's pearls......

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 12:59

And it is just a matter of time before almost blue blooded Jane will join the dance....., you'll see!

Robert Powell
21 September 2007 at 13:14

Ah the fog begins to lift. Nadav Katz - the one who projects his own prejudices on everyone else - is now claiming that I have a transvestite alter ego...

Could it be Herr Katz has multiple personalities? I mean we've established he's cuckoo but does that mean he is also Mr Jingles, Harvey and Spkurer? A full time paid propagandist paid by the 1933-45 German government to spread hatred of the Jewish people by adopting a series of unreasonable personas all of whom pose as right wing Israelis?

Chai kock!

Harvey
21 September 2007 at 13:22

Robert

Whatever it is you are on , can I have some too

Amihai
21 September 2007 at 13:39

Well, for me the regular day is over since Yom Kippur is fast approaching in our part of the world, the land of Zion and Jerusalem so, g'mar hatimah tovah to you, members of the "tribe", and happy Hebrew new year to all!

spkurer
21 September 2007 at 13:48

Reddaybreak-

FYI-the readership is about 30,000,

that's far less than Time Out, New Scientist,The Economist,The Week,less than half the readership of The Spectator (ouch that must hurt) and about one-seventh of Private Eye.

Actually readership is the wrong term-about 30,000 people buy it. My guess is most of those don't read all of it!

FA
21 September 2007 at 15:16

The issue is this, in the words of one of the camps' supporters in the article:

"...we need to educate them to defend their spiritual homeland by arguing for it"

If any other minority group, especially a Muslim one, was joining military camps in a foreign state for the purpose of encouraging those children to advocate for and serve the interests of that foreign state, that would be regarded, with a degree of truth, as disloyalty. The very fact that a minority would see somewhere else as its homeland in itself would raise eyebrows.

Politically all British citizens need to have their British identity as the primary one, and other identities - sectarian, ethnic, national origin - as secondary. The purpose of these camps is to ensure that supporting Israel is integral to the identity youth who have attended them. This in itself is undesirable and wrong - supporting a foreign state should not be integral to the identity of any British person - this in effect seeks to turn British jews into Israeli expats.

Also, it is completely untenable to operate a multi-ethnic, multicultural society without treating everyone equally. So you can't have Jewish kids doing this without, say, Lebanese or Pakistani or Iranian kids going to the equivalent camp in Lebanon or whatever (notice I left out terrorist groups and instead mentioned states - this is obviously not equivalent to terror camps, but its wrong nonetheless). As the author pointed out, that would be widely seen as unacceptable. And its completely untenable to operate a multi-ethnic, multicultural society when you have multiple groups behaving in this way - it will lead to foreign conflicts being fought on British streets.

If we want a multi-ethnic society to work, we need the primacy of being British to be encouraged for all groups in society. These camps have the opposite effect - they encourage loyalty to a foreign state. On a separate point, no British citizen should be allowed to serve in a foreign army - do we really want British citizens on two sides of a war (e.g. Israel and Syria?). That in particular sounds like a recipe for civil strife, and these camps seem like an inititation into joining the IDF in later life.

I know many Jews regard this behaviour as part of maintaining a heritage - and there is nothing wrong with maintaining a heritage - but the problem is this: 1. heritage can be maintained without reference to a foreign state and inculcating loyalty to a foreign state goes way beyond that and Israel IS a foreign state; and 2. behaviour that was probably harmless 40 years ago when Britain was a lot less diverse is harmful now because if one minority group wants to do something, they all will - and then all hell breaks loose. If Jewish kids go on this camp, how can one argue without hypocrisy that Muslim kids shouldn't go to Ahmadinejad summer camp in Iran?

For the sake of both British social unity and the fundamentally undesirable nature of it, no-one should be allowed to go to either side's 'camps'.

MichaelH
21 September 2007 at 15:29

"The New Statesman is a fringe paper with a miniscule readership (surprise,surprise). Some-one there is either pathologically obsessed with Jewish/Israel issues and therefore finds the need to bash them out of all proportion-or they think (this is a very generous view)-Jews are News and therefore sells copy." - spkurer

Do the "pathologically obsessed" include a certain website that has been encouraging its credulous readers to come to the NS website and post comments on this article??

azazel
21 September 2007 at 16:36

As I enjoy this day from my flaming abode Dudael, I greet you all commardes. I hereby declare..oops (declared a whlie ago) that all the sins of Israel be thrown upon my head and that all sane Gentiles(scapegoats) to be Codenamed as Anti-Semitics. Never mind the colour or nationality of the scapegoat; preferably a Patriotic British, with journalistic background, a truth teller and whose loyality to Britain rather than My Beloved Israel.

Any revolting Gentile be against the declared above tell them to lekh la-Azazel......

Shalom

Pencils
21 September 2007 at 21:38

Well said FA - that's the most genuinely reasoned contribution so far. It probably helps that you've come fresh to the 'discussion' and not been worn down by the insane babblings of the professional propagandists of Israeli National Socialism directed here by the ' Give Israel Your United Support (GIYUS)' website.

spkurer
22 September 2007 at 19:06

Do the "pathologically obsessed" include a certain website that has been encouraging its credulous readers to come to the NS website and post comments on this article??

Please explain MichaelH. I for one haven't the fogiest idea waht you are referring to.

MichaelH
23 September 2007 at 01:11

spkurer,

I'm sure you are a regular reader of NS just joining in as per usual. But I'm sure many others aren't and have been directed here by stridently pro-Israel sites like Honest (LOL) Reporting, who spend their time marshalling their sheep-like readers to denounce anything that is critical of Israel.

There is only one correct position- theirs. Anything else is "anti-Israel bias". It is essentially a fanatical intolerance to different opinions. As another paper that was taragetted by this group said, they are "enemies of free speech".

sonicdeathmonkey
23 September 2007 at 01:30

FA, I hate to point this out to you but British nationalism and social identity is as tenuous as mist. I see that as one of the most powerful aspects of our national identity- that we don't really have one (apart from bad teeth, dismal language skills and an obsession with alcohol consumption). Any form of nationalism is loathsome in my eyes as it simply teaches mistrust of foreigners and lies contrary to humanitarianism.

Harvey, Nadav- ad hominem attacks reveal your desperation to score 'points'. Bite me.

"An anti-semite was once someone who hated Jews. Now its someone the Israelis and their backers hate."

azazel
23 September 2007 at 20:16

All truth tellers will have the honor and opportunity to be branded Anti-Semite. We all know that if you critiicise nasty Hollywood you are deemed to be an international star.

mazaluk
17 November 2007 at 22:09

I'm off to Israel again in May 2008 to work on an IDF base as a volunteer.

I will be 58 years old when I do this.

Does the 'New Left' have any comments about my intended actions?

Digital Commuter
08 December 2007 at 04:42

If you deny the right of British Jews to go to visit and train in Israel they will leave England for good.

Digital Commuter
08 December 2007 at 04:45

Great Britain is in danger of becoming Juderein. Perhaps this is what you working towards, I don't know.

I do know that the actions of many Britons are similar to those of the Bolsheviks which made it a crime to be a Jewish Bundist, a Zionist and then a Jew.

Ultimately it was the Soviet Union which disappeared.

johannine
25 April 2008 at 03:54

Clearly one of the things israel teaches is how to collectivly lobby [judging by the weight of responses it is well organised]

Gosh imagine if this mighty lobby was applied to politics [thy they could lobby usa to do anything[like give israel TRILLIONS of dollsars ''AID' or to build nukes and not sign into any nuke deals , or imprison a whole country into prison camps .

or lobby media or lobby any body , wow the weight of this enormous lobby could do anything it choses, even imprison [or take over ] or rule the wold

Guess we are lucky they only use this overwelmingly powerfull elite on minour matters ,like making usa invade iraq [or soon iran] or get elected those subserviant to the needs of the mighty israel [the 4 th reiche].

Poor palistein there but for free speech lies us all, can we get this straight ,god gives all life its life to live ,

so how does killing life serve god?

Did not the famed jewish messiah say by their deeds will we know them [to love god and love neighbour? thus tto be serving G_D, or to serve death [ie not god ]

ps i was directed here from a jewish site

[because ''the new statesman '' wouldnt show up on a google search']

by their deeds will we know them

how wise are those who lead us to armogeddon,

what would we be capable of without an organised lobby for such 'good' [god]