The NS Interview: Norman Finkelstein
“I’d have to be certifiably insane to deny the Holocaust”
By Jon Bernstein Published 14 July 2011
It's five years since the conflict in southern Lebanon. What lessons do you draw now?
It was the first war in Israel's history that ended without it achieving a clear victory. The consensus is that, on the one hand, Israel could not have stopped the Hezbollah rocket attacks without launching a ground invasion but, on the other, it could not have launched a ground invasion without incurring military casualties, which Israeli society will not accept. So far, Israel has not figured a way out of this dilemma.
As a measure of success, Israel says the border with Lebanon is now quiet. Do you agree?
The Israel-Lebanon border is now quieter than ever before. It is the result of a local version of the MAD [mutually assured destruction] doctrine: neither side wants to risk its home front coming under attack by the other side. But, for Israel, such a status quo is unacceptable. Its strategic doctrine is premised on being free to unleash its military might when and where it chooses. That Hezbollah has imposed unacceptable restraints signals that the situation is unstable and will almost certainly culminate in another war, launched - or provoked - by Israel.
Does Israel want peace with the Palestinians?
Everybody wants peace. That's a truism. There is no point in accomplishing through war what you can accomplish through peace. The question is: peace on what terms? Then you start getting to the heart of the problem. Israel and Palestine is probably the least complex problem in the world today. Everybody agrees what the final-status questions are - borders, Jerusalem, settlements and refugees.
But isn't the devil in the detail?
There's no devil whatsoever in the detail.
Hamas fires mortars on to and kills civilians. Why would Israel do business with terrorists?
I'm not even going to engage in this kind of game: are Hamas terrorists? OK, I'll just concede it; let's not waste any more time. So, then, let's compare the record. Israel launches an attack on Gaza. As the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs put it, "Hamas was careful to respect the [2008] ceasefire," and it was Israel that broke the ceasefire on 4 November 2008. If Israel were really concerned about mortars and rockets, it wouldn't have broken the ceasefire.
Do you think the unity deal recently struck between Hamas and Fatah will last?
If the Palestinian Authority decides to go the route of UN recognition, it needs the unity deal because the international community has made that a precondition. If it decides to resume the "peace process", it doesn't need Hamas, and will have to ditch it because the US and Israel will not negotiate with Hamas. In private, Israeli diplomats will tell you that they don't believe Mahmoud Abbas has the political strength to deliver peace. You don't need political strength. Because all you have to do is present the terms for a settlement and then you can have a national referendum. If he concedes everything to Israel, then he'll need political strength.
In your view, Israel has appropriated the Holocaust. Could a non-Jew have said that?
There is no way a non-Jew could say what I did in The Holocaust Industry without being labelled a Holocaust denier. I am labelled a Holocaust denier, too. Nobody disputes that my parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto from 1939 to 1943. If I were denying the Holocaust, I would have to be certifiably insane.
Your parents went to the US after the war. Did they consider going to Israel?
My mother used to joke sometimes because the Judenräte, the Jewish councils, played such a filthy role during the Nazi Holocaust that, when asked "Why didn't you go to Israel?", she said: "I'd had enough with Jewish leaders."
Is there anything you'd like to forget?
I did a lot of wrong things, morally wrong, personally wrong. I made major political errors in my life. But I don't want to forget them, because they put me on notice.
Is there a plan?
It's too late to speak of a plan - I'm 57 years old.
Do you vote?
I don't. I understand the rational argument for voting, but . . . I can't stand these people. I could never vote for Barack Obama.
Why not?
Because I think it's all hollow clichés and platitudes. I can't bear it. He's a complete fraud.
He's brought health care to millions.
I'm unemployed and one of those 40 million Americans who has no health insurance, so I know all about insurance that I can't afford.
Are we all doomed?
I don't think in such big terms.
Do you believe in God?
No. When I was a young man, my mother said to me, "You can't be a communist without being a militant atheist." So I had to be a militant atheist because I wanted to be a communist.
Defining Moments
1953 Born in New York City
1988 Receives doctorate from Princeton University's department of politics
2000 Publishes The Holocaust Industry
2003 Accuses Professor Alan Dershowitz of plagiarism in writing The Case for Israel
2007 A vote by DePaul University's faculty board denies Finkelstein tenure
2008 Is denied entry to Israel
2010 Publishes This Time We Went Too Far: Truth and Consequences of the Gaza Invasion
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47 comments
Every Israel-hating fuck has a hard - on for a jew who feels the same way. It's all beautifully rolled into one: they love the guy who wants Israel destroyed (which might well involve a lot of dead jews) but their love proves that they're not anti-semitic. Hell, Naom's like the dad they never had and don't you just love Gilad's playing? Ooh yeh, our kind of jews these..
Odious left-wing sentiment that thinks it's so, so very different from the far-right.
"Finkelstein is a giant in a world where speaking the truth is scorned as weakness.( Note all the Zionist apologist 'might is right' creeps trying to defame him here"
What's your take on Geert Wilders? He's famous and has lots to say on Islam - much braver than those who speak out agains Israel as he's really putting his life on the line. . He's a giant who speaks the truth wouldn't you agree ?
Frederick: "Maybe he should try looking for a job in islamofascist Iran, Apartheid Pakistan or some other Islamist shit-hole."
Like Chomsky, the grass is a whole lot greener and they can say what they like in the satanic USA. Who wants to live in those medieval karzies except weekend burqa-wearing, middle class lefties?
But Ken, Hizbollah don't really represent the Lebanese people, do they?
Finkelstein might be right-the next war on the Israeli border might be caused by Israel. Alternatively, it might be caused by Iran, or by Syria-both of whom should get out of Lebanon and mind their own business.
@LA, yes it would be nice if there were ideologically correct groups in the region we could root for.
Palestinian and Lebanese Christians resent being bombed by Israel as much as anyone. About 40% of Lebanon is Christian, which would explain why Lebanon's largest Christian political party, the Free Patriotic Movement are openly allied with Hizbollah who in turn transmit Sunday mass live on Al-Manar TV.
Finklestein is the pscho who wrote 'The Holocaust Industry' and just can't understand why he can't find a job teaching in New York!!! What an asshole. Maybe he should try looking for a job in islamofascist Iran, Apartheid Pakistan or some other Islamist shit-hole.
Some very sick posts here.
@Lox, "Hizbollah don't really represent the Lebanese people do they"
Well the March 8 Alliance (of which Hizbollah are senior partners) gained 55% of the popular vote in the 2009 election.
To give this some kind of perspective, the Lib Dems and Tories gained 59% between them in 2010.
Comparative politics is an inexact science granted, although if we're talking popular mandates, the strength of popular support for parties in free and fair elections should be acknowledged, even when we may not agree with their agendas. To do otherwise smacks of "we respect your elected leaders/parties, but only as long as we agree with them".
Lox is just another example of the Zionist nazi American imperialist aids-spreading anti-Moslem genocidal reactionary conspiracy (ZNAIASsAMGRC) that infects our planet. There will be no peace in the world until all non-Moslem vermin are exterminated. Sieg HEIL to all my supporters I'm a brain dead dickheads I'm a brain dead dickhead I'm a brain dead dickhead
Finklestein is a fucking moron. That's why he is now unemployed.
He came to Manchester on Tuesday
good speaker