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World saved . . . planet doomed

Mark Lynas

Published 20 November 2008

Green activists are seeing the global economic crisis as an opportunity, but the truth remains: high economic growth cannot be reconciled with limited resources

More windfarms are needed to help meet targets for reducing carbon emissions, but investment has been cut because of the financial crisis

World saved . . . planet doomed

You could call it the see-saw effect: it has long been an article of political faith that as worries about the economy go up, interest in the environment must go down. It stands to reason: people who are concerned today about their jobs have more immediate matters of alarm than whether or not there may be more storms in 2055. Environmental concerns are a luxury of the rich, something we can no longer afford once the economy turns sour and recession looms. “I’m nervous,” wrote Jonathon Porritt in June – after Northern Rock and Bear Stearns but be-fore Lehman Brothers, Fannie Mae/Freddie Mac and Iceland. “Climate change is still tough for politicians to sell. This all feels very much like one of those periodic crunch moments for the sustainability agenda.”

In that same month, as the financial crisis deepened, the Oxford economist Professor Dieter Helm worried that we seemed to be seeing a "shift back to the safe territory of concrete and jobs". Certainly, David Cameron - having established his reputation with the "Vote Blue, Go Green" pledge - seemed scarcely to mention climate change any more. Alarmed, major environmental groups wrote an open letter to party leaders warning them not to drop the environmental ball, as it were. And news on the high street seemed to confirm the worst fears: sales of organic produce began to slow as worried consumers tightened their belts, while supermarkets such as Tesco dropped their environmental messages and began to focus once again on price.

Surprisingly, perhaps, the gloom hasn't lasted. Even as the news has worsened - as stock markets crashed and the jobless figures began to rise - environmental issues have stayed resolutely at the top of the agenda. In Britain the passing of the Climate Change Bill, which cleared the Commons late last month, was a major triumph for the green lobby, committing the government to much stronger targets than originally envisaged, and with loopholes on aviation and shipping firmly closed. (The bill is due to receive Royal Assent by the end of this month.) Instead of slamming the door shut on environmental issues, the crisis of confidence in conventional economics seems to have led to a surge of interest in green measures to address the crisis.

If trillions of dollars can be spent on propping up the world's banks, why cannot a similar amount be spent on shifting the world on to a greener track? Neither is a charity case: banks will eventually repay their loans and environmental investments, too, will generate a substantial return. (Indeed, US lawmakers seemed to recognise this implicitly when they attached a proviso extending clean energy subsidies to October's $700bn bank bailout.)

The election of Barack Obama is perhaps the biggest new endorsement of green issues. Can we solve climate change? Yes, we can

In the past few weeks, green economists and campaigners have noticed the emergence of an unexpected credit-crunch dividend. As Cam eron Hepburn, senior research fellow at Oxford University's Smith School of Enterprise and the Environment, told me: "The economic crisis softens people up to the scale of the numbers - $700bn doesn't seem impossible any more. In fact, the incremental cost of completely greening the world's energy system is certainly less than that per annum."

Sarah Best, a climate-change policy adviser for Oxfam, is also strikingly optimistic: "The good news is that climate and economic solutions can support rather than compete with each other," she says. "Developing a green economy offers us a way out of the present crisis. Investment in renewable energy, energy efficiency, green buildings and public transport will bring huge job-creation and enterprise opportunities."

Stressing that people in poorer countries affected by climate change should not be forgotten, Oxfam is asking for a proportion of carbon market cash to be allocated to financing climate adaptation in the developing world. The annual amount Oxfam estimates is needed for this from the UK is about £1.6bn annually. That would once have seemed like an inconceivably large bill. Now, in the present crisis, it seems small.

Even heads of state are beginning to repeat this hopeful message. The UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, joined the president of Indonesia and the prime ministers of Poland and Denmark this month to write a lead comment article in the International Herald Tribune which argued that "the answer" to the financial crisis and climate change "is the green economy". The authors described renewable energy as the "hottest growth industry in the world . . . where jobs of the future are already being created, and where much of the technological innovation is taking place that will usher in our next era of economic transformation".

The United Nations Environment Programme is capitalising on this sudden massing of political will by starting a Green Economy initiative, due to launch in Geneva on 1-2 December, which aims to help policymakers "recognise environmental investment's contributions to economic growth, decent jobs creation and poverty reduction", and reflect this in "their policy responses to the prevailing economic crisis".

Perhaps the biggest new endorsement of green issues has come with the election of Barack Obama, who made the word “hope” a central theme of his campaign. Can we solve climate change? Yes, we can. According to an interview he gave to Time magazine just over a week before the election, Obama sees the “new energy economy” as potentially the main “new driver” of the economy as a whole. His language leaves no room for doubt. “That’s going to be my number one priority when I get into office, assuming obviously that we have done enough to stabilise the immediate economic situation.” Obama’s climate credentials are unequivocal: he supports a US target of 80 per cent carbon-emission reductions by 2050, with a European-style cap-and-trade system as the centrepiece of his plan. In fact, the president-elect’s proposals are even stronger than Europe’s: rather than give emissions permits to industry for free, as the EU at present does, Obama proposes a system of 100 per cent auctioning, with the revenue going to fund clean energy investments and to help low-income Americans adjust to higher fuel prices. He also promises to put $150bn towards renewables investments, with the aim of creating five million new “green-collar” jobs.

According to David Roberts, a writer for Grist.org, the US-based online environmental magazine, energy and climate will be one of the Obama presidency's "three biggies" (the others being getting out of Iraq and passing health-care reform). However, he warns not to expect headline-catching announcements: "The key is the long game. Obama worked carefully, diligently and adeptly to get elected on a clean energy agenda" and will aim to secure success with his green economy plan in a similar way. Obama's response to the crisis in the US car industry gives an inkling of his pragmatism as well as his commitment: instead of offering simply to throw money at Detroit to prop up the ailing giants Ford and General Motors (which between them made a staggering $7.2bn loss in the last quarter), the president-elect has made it clear that any government support will be pegged to the industry developing higher-mileage and electric cars. For GM, which has built its entire corporate strategy over the past five years around gas- guzzling sports utility vehicles, this represents the ultimate humiliation.

In the current climate of political optimism, it seems that just about everyone is thinking imaginatively. Al Gore is proposing that the entire US electricity sector be decarbonised in the next ten years, and has been running post-election TV ads titled "Now what?" (answer: "Repower America"). Even Google has a plan - "Clean Energy 2030" - and has begun to shift its own investment towards renewable technologies. In the EU, fears that a group of countries that rely heavily on coal for power generation - including Italy, Poland and Latvia - could intervene to thwart climate targets have lessened, thanks to skilful diplomacy by President Nicolas Sarkozy. And the prospect of the credit crunch derailing this year's UN climate-change talks in the Polish city of Poznan also seems to have been averted; on 14 November, Australia's top climate diplomat, Howard Bamsey, reassured journalists: "I haven't detected any change in approach as a result of the financial crisis."

But how much of this is merely rhetoric? The financial storm has already inflicted grave damage on the clean energy sector; shares in wind and solar power companies have tumbled in the last quarter, some by as much as 75 per cent, as credit funding for capital projects dries up and power companies cut back on their investment plans. “If you can’t borrow money, you can’t develop renewables,” says Kevin Book, a senior vice-president at the investment firm FBR Capital Markets.

The swingeing cuts in carbon emissions needed to avoid catastrophic climate change are still politically and economically inconceivable

Demand for energy has slowed because of the economic crisis, pushing down the price of oil. This in turn has made solar and wind projects that looked profitable when oil was trading at $140 a barrel appear decidedly less attractive with the price of crude back down below $60. T Boone Pickens, the famous US oilman-turned-wind enthusiast, has quietly postponed his plan to build the world's biggest windfarm on the Texas panhandle, due in part to the falling price of oil. Tesla Motors, the California-based auto manufacturer whose all-electric sports car made headlines across the world in the spring, has been forced to cut jobs.

Gas prices have also fallen on international markets. "Natural gas at $6 [per thousand cubic feet] makes wind look like a questionable idea and solar power unfathomably expensive," says Kevin Book from FBR Capital Markets. Falling prices on the EU's carbon market - from ?30 in July to ?20 in November - have also made clean energy projects less competitive. (Despite this short-term blip, most analysts expect the long-term trend in oil prices to be up - the Inter national Energy Agency's executive director, Nobuo Tanaka, warned on 12 November that oil depletion rates seemed to be increasing, and that "while market imbalances will feed volatility, the era of cheap oil is over".)

Perhaps an economic collapse can save us by reducing emissions? After all, the reason the oil price is falling is that people are consuming less fossil energy. But according to Kevin Anderson and Alice Bows of Manchester University's Tyndall Centre for Climate Change Research, the collapse would have to be profound indeed to be sufficient on its own to bring about the emissions decline the planet needs. They estimate that in order to have even a 50-50 chance of keeping global temperatures from rising above 2° higher than pre-industrial levels (the stated aim of EU policy, among many others), the world must see energy-related carbon emissions peak by 2015 and decline thereafter by between 6 and 8 per cent per year. Anderson and Bows remind us that while "the collapse of the former Soviet Union's economy brought about annual emissions reductions of over 5 per cent for a decade", that still isn't quite enough. The suggestion is not that we should aim for a Soviet-style economic implosion, but that the dramatic cuts in carbon emissions needed to avoid catastrophic climate change are still politically and economically inconceivable.

"Green growth" can offer a positive way forward in the short term, but the impossibility of reconciling an endlessly growing economy with the limitations of a finite planet cannot be avoided. Even though, in Cameron Hepburn's words, a "dematerialisation of the economy is feasible in a thermodynamic sense", this hasn't happened so far anywhere - rising GDP is pegged to rising material consumption, and thereby to a rising impact on the environment.

The ecological economist Herman Daly says humanity should aim for "qualitative development", not "quantitative growth". He concludes drily: "Economists have focused too much on the economy's circulatory system and have neglected . . . its digestive tract." The financial crisis is certainly a circulatory ailment, but once it is solved the bigger challenge will remain - that the biosphere has limited sources for our products, and limited sinks for our waste. And that is the ultimate question politicians, environmentalists and economists will have to focus on answering if our ecological crisis is ever to give way to true long-term sustainability in the century ahead.

Mark Lynas's latest book is "Six Degrees: Our Future on a Hotter Planet" (HarperPerennial, £8.99 paperback)

The green economy: ten global facts

The London Array, planned for the Thames Estuary, could become the world's largest offshore windfarm.

A proposed tidal barrage over the River Severn could provide 5 per cent of the UK's electricity. It would cost £15bn and cut carbon emissions by 16 billion tonnes a year.

Barack Obama will invest $150bn in renewables, in the hope of creating five million new jobs in the US.

Abu Dhabi's Masdar Initiative, launched in 2006, will invest $15bn in global green energy. It will take eight years and cost $22bn to build Masdar City (model right), which will rely entirely upon renewable energy.

Qatar is investing $150m in developing green technology in the UK.

There is one large-scale commercial tidal power station in the world - in Brittany, France. It has operated for 30 years without mechanical breakdown and has recovered the initial capital costs.

Consumer goods in Japan will soon be labelled with their carbon footprints. Producing a packet of crisps emits 75 grams of CO2.

Nine out of ten new cars in Brazil use ethanol-based biofuels. Flex-fuel vehicles make up 26 per cent of the country's light vehicle fleet.

Since 2006, disposable chopsticks in China have been taxed at 5 per cent, safeguarding 1.3 million cubic metres of timber every year. Green venture capital accounts for 19 per cent of China's investments.

The Australian government has invested $10.4bn in making 1.1 million homes more energy-efficient, creating 160,000 jobs.

Samira Shackle

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40 comments from readers

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 11:06

Mark, did you read Christopher Booker "The world has never seen such freezing heat", The Sunday Telegraph 16/08/08?

Global warming is dead and now you use "climate change"....by definition, the climate has always changed.LOL

Never mind, its going to get very cold and plenty of folk will stave. A flood here, a cyclone there, its amazing how much insurance money gets pumped into a failing economy. The SLUMP couldn`t have arrived at a better time.:)

FreedomLand
20 November 2008 at 11:35

#Mark Lynas's latest book is "Six Degrees: Our Future on a Hotter Planet..."

Anything named "Six Degrees" of anything is a load of garbage, uhh.

#"The election of Barack Obama is perhaps the biggest new endorsement of green issues. Can we solve climate change? Yes, we can..."

Planet doomed - Meet BO's war cabinet..... Antiwar groups fear Barack Obama may create hawkish Cabinet

- "Reporting from Washington -- Antiwar groups and other liberal activists are increasingly concerned at signs that Barack Obama's national security team will be dominated by appointees who favored the Iraq invasion and hold hawkish views on other important foreign policy issues..." http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na-foreign-policy20-...

Greg Kato
20 November 2008 at 12:11

Carl Jones.

You are dead right. The world is getting cooler - fast -

and people like Mark Lynas ignore it.

A year ago the New Statesman published an article by

respected science journalist David Whitehouse saying

just that - and it has come to pass. Having been

proven right let's hear what Whitehouse says now

please and what Lynas said - its all year on year

variability and it means nothing - has been shown to

be rubbish.

The world is cooling and 'Six degrees' is now a work

of fantasy by someone who doesn't understand the

science yet makes a living out of climate porn.

In the end the earth will decide - and it is currently

saying that its cooling fast - global warming has gone

away.

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 20:21

Hi Mark, are you busy on the phone? We are expecting your usually weekend greeen swamping session of Lynas supporters.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 20:28

Assuming obviously that we have have done enough to stabilise the economic situation. This is the important part we should remember in relation to Obama's 'green policies.' We haven't stabilised anything, not even the banks. They are on a life-support system - massive taxpayer gifts. There is temporary lull, but the financial system is still incredibly vulnerable and unstable.

But that's the least of our worries, compared to the terrible shape of the wider US economy which is heading for a deep and long recession. This isn't pessimism. It's realism. The signs are all around and painfully obvious.

Three new waves of trouble are heading towards the financial system and they will all dwarf the sub-prime crisis. They are; credit card defaults, student loans and auto-loans, all of which are in deep, deep, trouble.

Obama isn't going to have the money for anything. The only place on can access funds for his projects, if he's really serious about following them through, if it wasn't just election rhetoric, is if he cuts the massive US military budget, which is in excess, all told, of 1500 billion a year and growing. How likely is this?

What Greens don't seem to want to face up to is the Political and Economic consequences of the changes in our way of life they advocate. This isn't surprising as this means making some very hard choices and going up against incredibly powerful vested interests in our society.

If, and unfortunately, I think this is looking increasingly likely, we enter the worst economic downturn since the Great Depression, or possibly something worse, then I think all bets are off regarding the chances of fundamental changes to the way we do business. A very fundamental problem is how do we pay for everything in a depression? We're going to have enough problems just keeping our heads above water, let alone funding masses of new projects.

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 21:09

Just get ready, its war[s], pandemic (will look natural/terrorist) and starvation....all NWO constructs and adds upto deplpulation..

writeon
20 November 2008 at 21:38

Carl,

lighten up! Your going into Doomer overdrive and scaring the natives. Things are not that bad, really. Obama is going to make everything right for everybody, everywhere. Bush was just the darkest hour before the dawn. I for one am so glad I've lived long enough to see the dawning of new and better world.

gnuneo
20 November 2008 at 22:07

mark: this Green notion that "infinite growth is impossible" - oh please, spare me the Malthusian illogic. Lets say Africans also want a refrigerator - where is the impossibility of manufacturing them from local sustainable materials, or even Western recycled plastic? Small, local energy production (village windfarm etc), supplying power for lighting, cooking and other essentials.

or take the West - as incomes rise, in general people purchase better, longer-lasting/less environmentally damaging goods. They might buy Mercedes (perhaps the SmartCar) instead of Ford, and have it repaired so it lasts them 30 years instead of 4. They might purchase more organic produce, grown by local Farmers, that requires more labour (thus employing more people in agriculture, a definitely GOOD thing). They would be able to choose energy from higher cost, but lower emission facilities, they may even invest in very long-term ideas such as space elevators or similar.

point being, there are NO limits to expansion, what IS limited is our current approach to material resources. Instead of the Greens wailing about "NO MORE GROWTH!", they should be exclaiming "NO MORE POLLUTION!" - a measure that requires MORE GROWTH, but of the *right, sustainable kind*. Instead of bemoaning "THERE ARE LIMITS TO GROWTH", they should be proudly proclaiming "THERE ARE NO LIMITS TO HUMAN INGENUITY!".

quit with this bloody negativity, all the Greens do is lose popular support. It is *not* "watering down the message", it is finding the cup half full. Half full does not mean it should be drunk as if still full, but it also does not mean we are completely dehydrated with no recourse.

i know there is a sizeable Green grouping of hair-shirt anti-peoples that is actually pleased at the notion of heading back to the Dark Ages, but the majority Greens want to move forward. And as the Greens also need to convince the General Public of their message... think Positive.

You might win elections! (even General ones...!)

writeon
20 November 2008 at 22:12

The Congress has just rejected a plea for 25 billion made by the Big Three auto producers in the US, before the Greens rub their hands together in glee, one should calmly consider what this could mean.

Around 250.000 work directly in the industry, add about a million and half retired workers and their dependents that receive pensions and healthcare benefits, and 5 or 6 million who supply parts, and one is talking about serious repercusions for what's left of US manufacturing industry.

Congress wants a modernisation and rationalisation plan from the Big Three and some evidence that they won't be back in a few months looking for more. But of course they will because demand for new automobiles is crashing, just like everything else.

There's a fundamental problem related to a low-growth or zero-growth economy, and that's it'll have a profound effect on the distribution of wealth in society. Without growth the big cake will remain the same sizel, it will probably shrink. As our banking system is based on optimism about the creation of future wealth to cover the creation of credit, debt and liquidity, this'll throw a spanner in the very heart of capitalism. In fact it's difficult to contemplate the capitalist system without growth, or am I missing something here?

The maldistribution of weath and power in society are hidden by the promise of growth. The cake getting bigger, though the slices different groups get remains the same. Once the cake stops growing, conflicts about the distribution of wealth are bound to escalate as people compare the size of their slices. Given the massive differences in incomes and wealth in most countries, a low-growth society brings with it a whole range of new, and potentially, explosive, problems.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 22:45

Was Thomas Malthus really that wrong? Simply put he looked around and saw that population growth appeared to be faster than the growth of food supplies, which would eventually lead to famine. Perhaps he was wrong about the timescale involved, but maybe, seen in longer and larger perspective he was correct? Or, at least, not totally wrong.

Obviously he didn't see the fantastic growth in technology, machinary and energy use that led to massive increases food production, but the environment has paid a heavy price for this stangering growth in argricultural production over the last two centuries.

Today we can, or rather we could, feed everybody, providing them with an adequate diet, nobody has to starve to death in a world with abundant food supplies; yet obviously this doesn't happen, why not? It seems odd that we apparently cannot eradicate hunger in the world and especially in Africa, maybe Obama will change all this, instead of resting on the seventh day?

All I'm saying is, that if we haven't solved this relatively 'minor problem' of world hunger and poverty, when conditions have been so positive and we know how to solve it, why are we so sure we'll solve the far bigger and highly problematic environmental challenges we face as a civilization?

On the other hand, if we want something enough, and wish really hard, have faith, use our boundless ingenuity, and creative abilities, then nothing is impossible for us once we make up our minds to act, and I'm sure this self-belief is a great comfort to the starving millions, knowing our hearts are, despite everything, in the right place.

gnuneo
21 November 2008 at 00:12

malthus was *completely* wrong in every respect. He made the classic mistake of noting a trend, and then projecting it ever forward, without taking into account any changes in the rest of society. For instance, the populations of Europe, once a certain level of prosperity was reached (so families could be more certain that their children wouldn't die), AND the introduction of Women's Rights (women do not generally wish to be limited to being only baby-machines, once they have a choice), then the population growth actually went into NEGATIVE figures - people generally behave rationally, and once having few children makes rational sense (and have the choice to do so), then people will generally have less children.

to the right-wing Malthus, this was inconceivable, as it still is to his modern, right-wing people-hating heirs.

"he didn't see the fantastic growth in technology, machinary and energy use that led to massive increases food production, but the environment has paid a heavy price for this stangering growth in argricultural production over the last two centuries. "

indeed, that is true. However neither he - nor clearly you - are aware that agriculture has once again gone through a new evolution, one slightly less exuberantly championed by the Petrochemical Industries and the feudal landlords known as "agribusiness", and that is the permaculture evolution.

this is the scientific application of knowledge used by peasants and horticulturists for centuries - millennia - knowledge of crop-rotation, mixed crops, and the use of the natural world to defeat other elements of the natural world that eat or blight the crops.

this is post-modern Science at its best, instead of destroying the biosphere by the application of poisonous, petrochemical products (pesticides and artificial fertilisers), agricultural output is increased by making a *stronger* biosphere, one designed by scientists to be largely self-sufficient.

gnuneo
21 November 2008 at 00:26

there is absolutely NO reason that we continue with the ironically named 'Green Revolution', except that massive vested interests - agribusiness, and their owned politicians and policy-makers - have more say than the scientists and environmentalists. In virtually every case study done, permaculture has out-performed monoculture when the study has extended over longer than a decade. Every 'scientific' study that 'demonstrates' a supposed superiority of monocultural agriculture - the application of industrial principles to agriculture - was entirely based upon short-term returns, yet as the biosphere gradually fails under the chemical assault, agricultural outputs fall dramatically.

"Today we can, or rather we could, feed everybody, providing them with an adequate diet, nobody has to starve to death in a world with abundant food supplies; yet obviously this doesn't happen, why not? It seems odd that we apparently cannot eradicate hunger in the world and especially in Africa?"

for exactly the same reason that the Queen can afford a Rolls Royce or two parked in her palace, yet outside her gate there might be some homeless beggars (until the police move them along). Why is this? Of course we can end world hunger, we can eradicate the most destructive diseases in the 3rd also, or ameliorate their effects. We can also end homelessness in the UK. All of this is possible - the greatest obstacle is the belief that we can't. People often can't see HOW - and all too often the reformers are actually people more interested in their own gains, rather than ending the problem they rode into power on. This is *absolutely* different to seeing an impossible problem however.

why have the post-colonial nations of south Asia and India not followed the African nations into continuing their dependence on the Western Powers? Complicated question, but the fact is is that they haven't - and when was the last mass Asian famine?

gnuneo
21 November 2008 at 00:41

"All I'm saying is, that if we haven't solved this relatively 'minor problem' of world hunger and poverty, when conditions have been so positive and we know how to solve it, why are we so sure we'll solve the far bigger and highly problematic environmental challenges we face as a civilization?"

no guarantees we will. But where is the point of being *certain* we won't?

"On the other hand, if we want something enough, and wish really hard, have faith, use our boundless ingenuity, and creative abilities, then nothing is impossible for us once we make up our minds to act, and I'm sure this self-belief is a great comfort to the starving millions, knowing our hearts are, despite everything, in the right place."

oooh, sarcasm. Got a smile out of me tho'. ;)

if we ever meet face-to-face, ask me about what it is like to be in rural Africa, and *actually meet* people who ARE going to die of either starvation, or cheaply treated diseases. Better yet, GO to Africa, meet these people, and tell them you don't believe their lot in life CAN be improved. I damn well dare you.

Just like the people living in the inner regions of Imperial Rome, western citizens today do not grasp the structures of Imperialism, nor how they affect the lives of those living on the periphery. Normal Western lifestyle wealth was not created by stealing the wealth of other countries and peoples - but the grotesque fortunes of the ultra-wealthy certainly are. Why does this happen? Related question - why do most western citizens get such sub-standard education? And why do the Scandinavian countries, that have probably the best educations, lead the entire World in not only giving charity to the 3rd World, but also going out themselves and directly working there?

as i've said before, Imperialism is a poison that harms everything it touches, both the ruled and the rulers. However it CAN be defeated, but NOT if we do not believe it is possible.

so i will take my "heart being in the right place", thank you.

gnuneo
21 November 2008 at 00:42

mark: sorry for taking over your page, i will take my own advice and shut-up now for at least a few days... probably. ;)

mitchy
21 November 2008 at 15:55

'Environmental concerns are a luxury of the rich, something we can no longer afford once the economy turns sour and recession looms'.

Bollocks. In case it'd escaped your attention Mark, the environment underpins the economy, and pretty much everything else. Without an environment to provide the raw materials for an economy, we'd all still be picking up sodding twigs.

Gerry Myer
21 November 2008 at 17:37

Just after midnight Gnuneo rattled off three more ranting monologues at 14 minute intervals. Crikey “Old Faithful” does not erupt as frequently as that. If Gnuneo really has anything to contribute that is worth reading he’d be well advised to go off-line, think a lot, write a little and then sleep on it before pasting his efforts. He has shot off in so many directions like a blue-bottomed fly that it is impossible to summarise his position.

However I challenge him to name one thing – anything - that can grow indefinitely in a finite environment. Malthus and later the Club of Rome were simply stating the obvious and undeniable. Gnuneo is welcome to take a space elevator to Mars if he can find one. Can he find a viable example of carbon capture for fossil-burning power stations? What is the real prospect of large scale “carbon neutral” housing in the foreseeable future? Is the notion of Africans building refrigerators from scraps of waste plastic another piece of his sci-fi?

Of course the worst fears of Malthus will not be met if human kind were to limit population growth but indications that will happen voluntarily and sufficiently quickly on a world scale are absent; the trend is apparently inexorably towards population explosion. In the West our politicians engage in gratuitous sniping at the only country that has taken serious measures to limit population growth.

Gnuneo suggests that as incomes rise, we in the west are buying cars that will last us for 30 years. But this is the consumer culture where it is considered desirable to obtain enough credit to replace your old model of everything – car, mobile phone, TV, kitchen – you name it – as often as possible. And Gordon Brown has encouraged it. This is the hallowed growth. “Because we deserve it”.

writeon
22 November 2008 at 16:41

One of the things that irritates me about this entire, complex and daunting question of exploding population growth, is the part about stabilizing it and eventually reducing it, for the good of the planet ect.

But who is to decide which populations need to be reduced and by how many, in absolute terms or proportionally? Why should the burden apply primarily to poor and populance countries, who have so little?

Surely it's the richest countries, that should reduce their populations first and most, after all they already consume so much of the planets resources?

The rich countries, the USA and Western Europe, could show good faith by planning to reduce their populations by half over the next century for example; that way we wouldn't give the impression that our concern for the planet, the environment, its resources, wasn't just selfish and deeply cynical.

Carl Jones
22 November 2008 at 21:25

writeon, you are completely wrong, the West is stable in terms od population, yes, it could come down, but in Asia, most are under 30 and they (generalisation) have not started their families. In fact, with current food cost, they have put off further additions to their families. Of course, this is only a delay.

gnuneo
22 November 2008 at 21:53

"However I challenge him to name one thing – anything - that can grow indefinitely in a finite environment. Malthus and later the Club of Rome were simply stating the obvious and undeniable."

ah yes, the classic idiocy relating to the term "infinity". The resources we have available - including the energy from the Sun - are all limited, finite, therefore our growth is also limited.

yes, from a philosophical position, this is true - one day the Sun will stop pouring out energy - straight after turning the Earth to a cinder. So the energy we have available is "limited" - golly gosh, you are right!

but in any serious discussion, it would be accepted that the energy from the Sun is infinite according to our usage in any conceivable way.

once that is accepted, then all else becomes also practically unlimited resource-wise, because with enough energy available, resources that are scarce can be replaced with alternatives - and the market system will ensure that human resources ARE put into finding alternatives.

of course, there are physical constraints - the Isle of Wight cannot contain 60 Billion people for instance, no matter how much energy is available, but again, this is a critique so far removed from reality that it is only a laughable attempt at scoring points to bring it up.

in case you haven't got the point yet, resources are *effectively* unlimited, even if they are not infinite. You can argue metaphysics all you want, and use your results from that to justify genocide or whatever it is you are arguing for, however i will still prefer to take pro-Life (not in the abortion sense), pro-Human reality over your own pessimistic attitude. We might still fail, but at least we will have TRIED.

gnuneo
22 November 2008 at 22:17

"Gnuneo is welcome to take a space elevator to Mars if he can find one."

i would love to. I wonder how close we could have come to having them if the US has not been wasting the 'peace dividend' on upgrading its vast array of WMD and other weaponry? Over $1Tn a year thrown away on useless weaponry, that could have gone into productive science. And that's not even adding in the cost to Mankind from the arms races the US has spawned across the world again.

space elevators are not "science fiction", or rather they are as much science fiction as "personal communicator devices", or "personal computers", or "bullet trains". Once we have medium to large scale laboratories in Zero-gravity, we can easily start to research and build the type of carbon molecules that will need to be used. Just one years military spending would have been enough to fund such a venture. But SO much better to kill each other and squabble about the remaining Earth based resources right? Psht.

"Can he find a viable example of carbon capture for fossil-burning power stations?"

don't need to. Full exploitation of renewables just within the UK can produce around 60% of current power consumption (possibly more as technology increases, such as 100m+ off-shore wind turbines - the Danes are virtually already there.).

the remaining energy - and a stable source - can come from solar farms.

http://solar.calfinder.com/blog/news/solar-power-generation-...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/22/solarpower...

as you quote the Club of Rome, here is their report

"What is the real prospect of large scale “carbon neutral” housing in the foreseeable future?"

about similar to the prospect of getting western troops out of the ME. Question is, how much public pressure can be brought to bear?

gnuneo
22 November 2008 at 22:30

"Is the notion of Africans building refrigerators from scraps of waste plastic another piece of his sci-fi? "

WTF??

there is no such thing as "waste" - there are simply resources we have worked out how to utilise yet. You are REALLY stuck in 19th century thinking, aren't you?

are you claiming that as living standards across Africa would rise, the demand for goods and services will not be met? That it is IMPOSSIBLE for locally sourced and/or alternative resources to be find to fill the demand?

wonder why you bother living at all, or do you *enjoy* the suffering, misery and poverty of others?

"Of course the worst fears of Malthus will not be met if human kind were to limit population growth but indications that will happen voluntarily and sufficiently quickly on a world scale are absent; the trend is apparently inexorably towards population explosion. In the West our politicians engage in gratuitous sniping at the only country that has taken serious measures to limit population growth."

more common ignorance. The nobel economist Amartya Sen noted - and proved - that China's population growth rates matched Europe's almost identical patterns as China's economic and civil rights matched Europe's - in other words, the 'one child policy' had very little effect upon the birth rates, the main changes were caused by the rise in economic prosperity and the right of women to control their own lives. As demonstrated, this means that generally there is one, or at most two, generations of rapid growth as the children survive that would once have died - and after that the growth rates go into negative figures. With current rates, Europe's population will be around half by 2050 or so, barring immigration (remember the boomer gen will be dead by then).

prosperity and women's rights are the only ways to bring down pop growth - the 2 things Malthusianists like yourself tend to most detest. All those "other" people really grate on your nerves, right?

gnuneo
22 November 2008 at 22:35

"Gnuneo suggests that as incomes rise, we in the west are buying cars that will last us for 30 years. But this is the consumer culture where it is considered desirable to obtain enough credit to replace your old model of everything – car, mobile phone, TV, kitchen – you name it – as often as possible. And Gordon Brown has encouraged it. This is the hallowed growth. “Because we deserve it”."

indeed, the consumerist society that Alvin Godforsaken Toffler helped to create. Not everyone buys into it however, and with decent education (and a change in tax system to charge more on disposables, and less on durables), consumers can rapidly change their purchasing habits. See the incredible sales of low-energy light bulbs, for instance.

i would love to see what 'solutions' YOU would come up with - wars, disease, famines? Lovely. I suggest you emigrate with your family to sub-saharan Africa, and be the first in line for these 'population adjustments'. Put your heart where your mouth is.

writeon: well said, and so true.

carl: so there is no time to lose to put measures in place to slow down that growth in the future, right?

manders
23 November 2008 at 04:41

Chopsticks your bonkers! Let us spit in the ocean. China is at the edge of environtmental castrophe without even mentioning Global Warming. They have eaten the biodiversity out of South East Asia in such an insidious way most average Britons would not believe. Do you really think the Indians and Chinese are going to stop until they have stolen our levels of affluence. PS. I miss the cute picture of the Polar Bear where is it!

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 09:18

Mark, snow in England this October and now snow in London today.LOL

manders, have no worries, the global population will be slashed and Asia and Africa will take the brunt. Elites in China and India might be complicit.

Gerry Myer
23 November 2008 at 15:53

Gnuneo appears to believe that no problem is beyond scientific solution and that, provided funding is sufficient, those solutions can be achieved quickly. One doubts that s/he is a mature experienced research scientist. Undeniably technological advances, particularly in areas such microelectronics, genetics and materials science, could scarcely have been imagined a generation ago. And I recall the then Astronomer Royal, Richard van der Riet Woolley, asserting in 1956 that the prospect of space travel was “utter bilge”. Optimism is an essential ingredient for success in technology.

However perspective is equally important. No responsible scientist counts chickens before they have hatched. Gnuneo’s attitude in anticipating future scientific advances is common amongst politicians and the public and encourages a live-now-pay-later approach to life. Paradoxically this way of thinking occurs when few high-achieving students opt to study the physical sciences and many of these, on graduation and attracted by disproportionate financial rewards, switch to law or accountancy.

Fifty years ago the Harwell Zeta project, which had promised limitless energy from nuclear fusion, was closed down. Today when huge sums are (rightly) still being spent on international research to make such power generation a reality, Gnuneo is possibly more familiar with the American sci-fi series of the same name. Huge investments have been needed in research to bring about what now appear to be quite modest technological developments; consider for example the years of effort that preceded the invaluable rechargeable lithium cell.

The main obstacle to survival of human life is not lack of investment in scientific research; it is the inability of the members of our species to organise to coexist justly and harmoniously. This depends on the suppression of individual greed, of extremes of income, and the development of personal philosophies consistent with contentment and co-operation.

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 17:23

Gerry, a good comment and considered. Nut your last paragraph isn`t correct.

I call them the NWO, elite or establishment. One of their guiding principles is conflict and this has gone into hyperdrive (lol) since 9/11 (NWO construct). The other thing you miss, is the SUPPRESSION of technology...they want us to fill up with hydrogen at the hydrogen station...but 10 years ago we could heve been filling our tanks with WATER and having it split under the bonnet....its easy, but gives the people of the world too much freedom.

I`ve just been reading about a TOTAL cure for cancer, but the FDA is ignoring it??LOL

Capitalists have used technology to give them an edge, but it also ----- up their investment/profit model, so technology gets buried, left on the shelf, or the inventor gets suicided. People believe they drive around in steel bodied cars because this was the best option/technology, the public have no idea of how designed/planned and constructed their sorry little world is.:)

Camus
23 November 2008 at 17:29

Write on: Was Thomas Malthus really that wrong? You must be kidding. With about 800.000.000 inhabitants the world was fairly empty in 1860. By 2007 we were up to 6.7 Billion, many underfed and in need of fresh water, agreed, but Malthus? About as dead as darwin's dodo.

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 17:55

"About as dead as Darwin`s Dodo"...about as dead as Darwin`s science.LOL

gnuneo
23 November 2008 at 21:27

gerry myer: again, WTF are you arguing about? Please give the SPECIFIC "technological advance" i mentioned that actually still requires research?

windmill tech? Check.

long-distance low loss transmission? Check.

permaculture? Check.

tidal generators? Check.

none of this requires further *necessary* research - it is all ready and available for production. Can certainly still be improved, but we do not have to 'sit around waiting for the science'.

as for the space elevator, go back and read what i said - that was the ONE part that i said needed long-term research and investment, as an example of *continued growth*. It is not necessary to get us out of our current problems, all the tech we need to do that is available right here, right now.

"The main obstacle to survival of human life is not lack of investment in scientific research; it is the inability of the members of our species to organise to coexist justly and harmoniously. This depends on the suppression of individual greed, of extremes of income, and the development of personal philosophies consistent with contentment and co-operation."

you want to switch to the social sciences? Cool with me.

the problem is not "greed", nor "competitiveness" - although you're on the money with the rest. The main problem - i would estimate about 90% of human misery and social dysfunction rests upon this - is the concept of "owning other's labour". This is nothing more than the continuation of the Feudal society into modern times, instead of peasants staying poor because they have to hand over their Labour in "rent", now the workers hand over their Labour and get back a fraction as "wages". And remain poor.

greed is not necessarily bad, neither is competition. Both are part of the reason we are not still grubbing around in trees. Where it all goes wrong is *exploitation* - as this prevents people receiving the benefits of their Labour, and maintains Class privileges.

and why the attack on me because i'm being positive??

writeon
23 November 2008 at 21:33

I didn't say that Thomas Malthus was absolutely correct, obviously he wasn't, population didn't outstrip our ability to feed ourselves. I was only speculating if he was a absolutely incorrect as most people seem to assume, without having actually read what he wrote.

Clearly he wasn't optimistic about the future of mankind and our ability to cope, and his scepticism was deemed hopelessly old-fashioned, just plain wrong. Progress, technology, human ingenuity and will power can solve every problem given time. Malthus, dreary and with a furrowed brow, was an unwanted guest at the party.

During the last one hundred years the phenomenol growth in food production has been intimately linked to the exploitated of incredibly cheap, easy and plentiful supplies of fossil fuel energy, which has allowed us to feed the hundreds of millions of extra mouths. But take away this cheap and abundant energy in all its forms, and the situation begins to look very different.

loyaltothetruth
24 November 2008 at 11:04

People should remember that a disaster delayed is not a disaster avoided. There is no intrisic law of the universe that says human ingunuity will over come undeniable shrinking resourse, and increase expectation.

We taking a great risk if we rely on that and are not mindful, to help make thing easier for science to do its job.

Also to gruneo blaming africa poverty on its reliance on western aid is like blaming charity for poverty. First of india and the rest of southeast asia have resived far more aid then you might have heard over the years not to mention investment and government loans.

Secondly the success of country over the world after there indepence is with very few exception dependent upon the level of development before conquest, and the length and level of development after with the first being the most important.

Africa is so depenedent on assistance because most african country were barely out of the stone age when conquered and given independence long before they were ready for it.

Camus
24 November 2008 at 14:53

The basic tenet of the capitalist economist is 'human needs and wants are infinite.' So the production of plastic trash and useless junk grows in order for the GNPs worldwide to continue growing. At some time in the future we will reach the edge and a future generation will be gazing into the abyss, MAD.

writeon
24 November 2008 at 16:16

I suppose I could see the "justification" for capitalism in the age of European expansionism and imperialism. The world seemed so different then, so open, so boundless, so easily conquered and subjugated, so much profit to be made, but today? I think we have to move away from "frontier capitalism" towards something else entirely. A society were quality replaces quantity. Where all products are built to really last, and throwaway consumerism is regarded as something close to "sinful" in an environmental sense.

Gerry Myer
24 November 2008 at 18:56

It was Alexander Pope http://www.poetsgraves.co.uk/Classic%20Poems/Pope/a_little_l... who first observed that “A little learning is a dangerous thing”. Gnuneo appears to be such a case. S/he has discovered a few phrases, has half digested them and turned them into a quasi religion. At a qualitative level this is almost plausible but it cannot withstand close and quantitative analysis.

Gnuneo’s “windmills” (i.e. wind turbines) can and do have a minor contribution to make to the UK power demand but they have major problems, especially when sited offshore, and on wind-free days they lie idle.

It is one thing to know that solar radiation at the Earth’s surface amounts roughly to 1kw m-2. It has so far proved to be difficult to harvest that energy efficiently and on a large scale.

Although long a proponent of the Severn Barrage, I realise that it too can make a significant but only small contribution http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/3308857/Severn-ba...'amber-light'.html to our electricity requirements. And I doubt that true proponents of permaculture would give it unqualified support as it is scarcely an example of living in harmony with nature.

Just as more motorways lead to more road traffic, so cheap available energy leads to more wasteful consumption. It is profligate use of power that requires attention.

There is no virtue in being “positive” if you are wrong.

gnuneo
25 November 2008 at 23:40

Patrician: "Also to gruneo blaming africa poverty on its reliance on western aid is like blaming charity for poverty. First of india and the rest of southeast asia have resived far more aid then you might have heard over the years not to mention investment and government loans."

umm - i didn't say anything about western aid. Reread what i did say again. To give you a clue as to what i was talking about, India and SE Asia generally, broke free of the Western economic Imperialism model, and built up locally owned industries. Africa remained tied to being a 'primary goods' producer, in thrall to the West. There are huge other factors involved however, but that is what i was referring to.

"Secondly the success of country over the world after there indepence is with very few exception dependent upon the level of development before conquest, and the length and level of development after with the first being the most important.

Africa is so depenedent on assistance because most african country were barely out of the stone age when conquered and given independence long before they were ready for it."

well, its largely off-topic, but i will respond. It is not so much "time" that development requires - and more the *type* or Quality of the development. The industrialist Marxist model was appallingly inefficient (even ignoring the normal Marxist political holocaust followed by Dictatorship), and the new Elites simply followed the same old Imperial models of ownership, rather than the Indian model of local ownership, with the Ideal being the Grameen Bank.

oh, and in fact Africa was FAR out of the stone Age, you REALLY should learn something about Africa, and what the "Stone Age" is actually defined as. Indeed, up until the mass Slave Trade, Africa and Europe were virtually identical in terms of development. Look it up.

gnuneo
25 November 2008 at 23:52

"A society were quality replaces quantity. Where all products are built to really last, and throwaway consumerism is regarded as something close to "sinful" in an environmental sense."

you have my vote.

"S/he has discovered a few phrases, has half digested them and turned them into a quasi religion. At a qualitative level this is almost plausible but it cannot withstand close and quantitative analysis. "

getting a bit tired of your constant abuse here, i have to say. If you perceive you have more accurate data than myself, why do you feel it makes you so superior you have to disparage me in order to make your point? Surely you don't seriously imagine i will be so browbeaten i'll accept your opinions without question just because you are being abusive? I am open to revising my opinions if others offer more accurate data, i am NOT open to a constant tirade of abuse just because i disagree with you. Please moderate yourself.

"And I doubt that true proponents of permaculture would give it unqualified support as it is scarcely an example of living in harmony with nature. "

when compared to monoculture? Nor am i particularly concerned with "living in harmony with Nature" when we have a global population of 6Bn plus - and rising - that require feeding, and virtually the entire 1st World is reliant upon antiquated models of agriculture that are completely unsustainable over any length of time - even if oil was to continue being regarded as an unlimited 'free good' with no pollution problems.

get through the current problems, and we can start to think again about the Balance between GAIA and her human population.

you might find this of interest:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/oceans/la-me-ocean30jul30%...

gnuneo
26 November 2008 at 00:08

"Just as more motorways lead to more road traffic, so cheap available energy leads to more wasteful consumption. It is profligate use of power that requires attention. "

and in Nature, an organism that becomes more energy-efficient - either equivalent output from less requirements, or greater output from equivalent intake - is generally more 'successful' in Darwinian terms. In other words, i agree completely.

i certainly agree we should be looking for efficiencies wherever we can - you may have noted my mentioning of the low-energy bulb in this regard - however, if it IS possible to build new, sustainable energy sources (especially such stable ones as Desertec), then i cannot see the harm. Far less harm than allowing the Govts hard-on for more nuclear plants, anyway.

would you prefer to use the deserts of Northern Africa, where the desalinated water can also spark new agriculture projects, and possibly even slow the rate of desertification, plus the energy is completely renewable and non-polluting, or would you prefer to have a new Sellafield built at the bottom of your home? I think when put like that, most would agree with me.

as for your criticisms of other renewables - wind-turbines etc, wow - i just never realised there were problems with them like that? Wind-turbines don't work when there is no wind?? Who would have thought it?!

next you'll be informing me that when oil hits 30Euro a barrel, it'll be quite expensive, or that nuclear waste takes a while to 'decompose'.

"There is no virtue in being “positive” if you are wrong."

did you think that through, or was it just a knee-jerk wannabe philosowank?

2 elements involved - being positive, and attaching that to specific policies. I am positive we have a chance to get through our problems - do you criticise THAT? I am willing to accept that the specific policies may need adaptation.

you on the other hand, appear to value being "pessimistic" - as you have attacked me purely for positivity. You are poorer.

Carl Jones
26 November 2008 at 00:53

gnuneo; the universe is full of energy....heat, cold, radiation, and while many consider life to be widespread, it will at best be on a tiny fracton of planets.

Consumption of energy isn`t the issue. The public need to open their eyes to suppressed energy, free energy!! Oil will be dominating the energy agenda for another 40-50 years....even if 70% of our energy comes from alternative/nuclear, oil will remain the dominant energy.

You can be positive and realistic. The population MUST drop, maybe by 4-5 billion.

gnuneo
26 November 2008 at 22:16

carl: what is *your* idea for 'reducing' the population? More NWO wars, disease, famine? Or social-democracy, long term development, and sensible, rational population decline?

btw, oil will be finished within 20-25yrs at current rates of growth, even ignoring the pollution catastrophe continued pumping and burning will cause we have no other option than moving ASAP to the post-oil economy.

its a straight choice between building aircraft carriers and remaining as America's tame poodle, or once again having independence and pride, and leading the world in sustainable change.

PacificGatePost
29 November 2008 at 07:05

If we are to set serious guidelines to clean up our mess in the air and water, we should base decisions on sound

data and not emotional hype. For example, …

http://pacificgatepost.blogspot.com/2008/03/argo-4900781s-le...

While Al Gore's efforts to clean up the air and water should be applauded, his and other arguments on Global

Warming seem rooted in information now appearing to be incorrect.......

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Mark Lynas

Mark Lynas has is an environmental activist and a climate change specialist. His books on the subject include High Tide: News from a warming world and Six Degree: Our future on a hotter planet.

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