Derry or Londonderry?
Even the BBC can’t decide.
By Sholto Byrnes Published 15 June 2010 14:02
Tuning in to the BBC late last night, I watched a report about the Saville inquiry into the events of Bloody Sunday, 1972, during which the studio presenter referred to the Northern Irish city of "Londonderry". When we went to a report from the area, however, the name of "Derry" was used. Naturally, there are historical resonances attached to both versions.
Unionists -- and especially their supporters in England -- have a strong preference for Londonderry, as it was renamed in recognition of its connections with City of London livery companies during the Plantation of Ulster in the 1600s.
Nationalists tend to prefer the name that served perfectly well for centuries before the inhabitants of the large island next door decided to occupy the neighbouring lands across the Irish Sea -- "ye that have harried and held/ye that have bullied and bribed, tyrants, hypocrites, liars!", as Patrick Pearse, leader of the 1916 Easter Rising, called them in his poem "The Rebel".
As Saville is going to be in the news in the coming days, there is a significance in the nomenclature used in reports. The Guardian style guide, for instance, states firmly: "Derry, Co Derry. Not Londonderry." A BBC press officer tells me she doesn't think the corporation has any internal guidelines.
The Independent's letters editor and style supremo, Guy Keleny, says that paper would aim to be "non-tendentious and even-handed as regards the history of Northern Ireland". So, the local authority, which voted to revert to the original name of Derry in 1984, "has the right to call itself whatever it wants". However, the high court ruled in 2007 that Londonderry is in the city's royal charter and remains its legal name.
An old edition of the Oxford Dictionary for Writers and Editors lists Derry as a "postally acceptable abbreviation" of Londonderry, while I gather the comedian Dara O'Briain makes light of the competing versions when he performs in the city by opening his show with the line: "Hello, my name is Dara, or if you prefer, you can call me Londondara."
You can find quite a history of the dispute on Wikipedia here, although some of its statements are questionable. It says, for instance, that "The Londonderry Air" ("Danny Boy") is "seldom" called "The Derry Air". Not so "seldom" in southern Irish circles, that's for sure.
Keleny adds: "there ought to be a Platonic ideal" for the name of the actual place -- but that is still only an aspiration. As Éamonn Ó Ciardha of the University of Ulster says: "The Ulster Plantation may have been 400 years ago but its impact is still being felt at home and abroad." Not least in the findings of the Saville inquiry, which are published today.
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11 comments
It is BBC policy to say Londonderry initially, then Derry or Londonderry interchangeably afterwards.
Derry comes from the Gaelic word Doire, meaning 'place of the oak trees'. Not only did the Ulster Plantation (euphanism) take the land of the people who lived there, it also started a process which tried to destroy their culture and language.
A majority of people living in both the city and county now wish for the place to be called Derry. As they are the residents, surely their view should be the only one that matters.
PS After Saville, any chance of a return of the Elgin Marbles to their country or origin?
" Derry please. Not Londonderry, nor Lady London's derriere thank you.
Thanks @johncronin for putting the record straight.
Ulster is the last outpost of Englands colonial Empire.
It was serviced by Scots Protestants and enabled England to keep its steely grip on that offshore island of Ireland."
For someone so easily angered by the use of correct names and so passionate about historic events you seem to know little about either.
The Empire was the British Empire, with Scottish, English, Welsh and especially Irish people serving the army, conquering and colonising land abroad; trading and making laws.
Scotland is not, has never been and never will be part of an English Empire regardless of the former status of Ireland and Wales.
The people in the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland are let down by people like you who wish to re-write history to justify the deaths of the thousands killed by the IRA.
No doubt without the likes of you there would be a United Ireland that would have acheived full independance through democratic and peaceful means. Want proof look at India where Ghandi refused to support a single act of violence, look at Scotland where the only thing now blocking independance is a lack of interest by the Scottish people.
Yes, get it over and done with and re-call Derry City in the ancient local language name. That should divert all this nonsense from the last few centuries. Works very well in Wales/Cymru in the last few decades. Only got to look at the confused English tourists to see it is working well!!
it is actually BBC policy to say Londonderry first then Derry every other time it is mentioned thereafter. i was told this by a BBC complaint handler last week.
I quote:
"Nationalists tend to prefer the name that served perfectly well for centuries before the inhabitants of the large island next door decided to occupy the neighbouring lands across the Irish Sea - "ye that have harried and held/ ye that have bullied and bribed, tyrants, hypocrites, liars!", as Patrick Pearse, the leader of the 1916 Easter Rising, called them in his poem "The Rebel"."
It is clear even from this paragraph that you have very little knowledge of Ulster, or wider Irish history. Where, pray, do you think you get all these Catholics called Hume and Adams and Hendron and Morrison and Sands and Hendron and Nelson? Judging by their surnames, all of the above are (or were) the descendents of English or Lowland Scots settlers, who somewere along the line "went native" married a Catholic girl and saw their children brought up as Catholics. This process of assimilation worked the other way round: during Penal times, Catholics, especially the more affluent ones, frequently converted to Protestantism, sometimes out of genuine religious conviction, more often for careerist reasons. For example, Capt Terence O'Neill, Unionist PM in 70s was a descendent of the ancient Gaelic aristocracy who anglicised em selves and changed their religion in order to hang on to their estates. One can think of plenty of famous (or infamous) Ulster Prods with "Catholic" surnames: Louis McNeice, Judge Basil Kelly, the late unlamented Lenny Murphy, John McMichael, one time head of the UDA, James Galway etc etc.
The Plantation of Ulster got under way in earlyy 17th C: involved 3 sep (and frequently mutually antagonistic) ethnic groups - ie the English, the Lowland Scots and the Gaelic speaking Highland Scots, who were themselves far more closely related racially and linguistically to the native Gaelic speaking Ulster Irish than they were to the English or Lowlanders.
Prior to the Reformation, Plantation and spread of English lang and culture to the Celtic fringe, ulster and the Highlands basically formed a single cultural unit: Look up the ancient kingdom of Dalraida.
The Prot maj in E Ulster was reinforced in later 17th C mainly by immig from Scots Lowlands, but also by large scale immigration of French Hugeonots (see Danny Blanchflower, Sean Lemass etc etc)
Padraig Pearse's father, incidentally, was a Protestant Englishman.
Derry please. Not Londonderry, nor Lady London's derriere thank you.
Thanks @johncronin for putting the record straight.
Ulster is the last outpost of Englands colonial Empire.
It was serviced by Scots Protestants and enabled England to keep its steely grip on that offshore island of Ireland.
England didn't really have to keep a "steely grip" on Ireland: throughout the 19th C most Irish Catholics voted for the constitutional Nationalist Party whose members sat at Westminster for nearly a century prior to being eclipsed by Sinn Fein in 1918: if they'd given the Irish Home Rule within the UK back in the 1880s. it would have saved everyone a lot of trouble all round.
As my surname shows, I have Irish blood. It didn't matter in my home town, Dundee. It would have, though, if I had been brought up in Glasgow where many people of Ulster and Southern Irish descent settled, bringing their prejudices and sectarianism with them.
However, I have spent much time in North and South Ireland and have met people their of both faiths and both parts of Ireland who are decent and only want to get on with life.
Most people in Scotland, thankfully, couldn't care where you came from or what your religion is.
I was educated as a Catholic and always disliked that church intensely. I was free to do so because people where I lived respected my rights.
The problem with history--Irish, Scottish or any other--is that people are attached to it by emotions rather than plain facts. So you will see it and understand it from those emotions. And that's the problem.
The famous Irish writer James Joyce, said of his alter ego Stephen Daedalus, "Stephen was trying to awaken from the nightmare of history."
We haven't learnt from history and so the nightmare goes on.
What I don't understand is why Ulster Scots decided in the first place to champion a name that signified an oppressive power in London that didn't represent them. I'm from Whitehaven in Cumbria and would certainly not be happy if the government decided to rename the town Londonwhitehaven.
Personally I prefer Derry for this reason, it's older and the 'real' name of the place. But I kind of like 'Stroke City' too.