Fisking Fawkes
Iran Watch, part 7
By Mehdi Hasan Published 20 March 2012 11:15
Iran Watch, part 7
Hats off to Paul Staines, aka Guido Fawkes. Now there's a sentence I never thought I'd write. He's used a blogpost on an obscure, neocon-wannabe website to try and defend himself over his Osiraq gaffe that I highlighted here. (The website in question, incidentally, seems obsessed with me, once even accusing me of using too many "statistics" in my arguments. Damn those pesky facts and figures!)
The reason I say "hats off", however, is Staines has at least bothered to put together a response - unlike, say, John Rentoul, who hides behind snarky putdowns on Twitter and doesn't do substance. It's 1,300-words, which makes it the longest piece I've ever read by the self-described "pyrotechnician".
The problem is that, despite the length, it's fact-free, evasive and dodges the key issues. Poor Paul put a lot of effort into his "rebuttal" so let's take the effort of going through it para by para....
Poor Mehdi Hasan. His New Statesman blog is billed as a "polemical take on politics, economics and foreign affairs." No-one likes a good polemic more than I do. It's just that to be effective, it helps if you have a consistent approach to what you're talking about.
And so to the debate about Iran's nuclear weapons programme. Hasan can't make up his mind whether his strategy is to deny its existence or to allow it to progress to completion.
Really? My "strategy" is to point to the fact that the consensus view of 16 US intelligence agencies, as well as Israel's own intelligence chief, is that Iran isn't developing nuclear weapons and hasn't even made a decision as to whether it wants to develop and build such weapons - while at the same time pointing out how a putative Iranian nuclear weapons programme wouldn't justify military action and wouldn't automatically lead to nuclear armageddon. Is that not "consistent"? Perhaps it is for people who struggle with the English language...
More of that in a moment. But first there's some fun to be had. In an article last Tuesday Hasan took me to task for tweeting him about Israel's attack on Iraq's nuclear facility at Osiraq in 1981. The reactor was destroyed and Saddam's nuclear programme was halted in its tracks.
It's an obvious historical reference point for anyone seriously contemplating military action to stop the deranged Islamist theocracy in Tehran getting nuclear weapons. For the equal and opposite reason it's also obvious why apologists for said deranged-Islamist-theocracy feel the need to completely misrepresent its significance.
Hi-larious. I cited three leading experts on nuclear weapons (Richard Betts, Malfrid Braut-Hegghammer and Dan Reiter), who pointed out how Saddam's nuclear programme wasn't "halted in its tracks". They're all "apologists" for the "deranged Islamist theocracy in Tehran"? That's your best shot? How about Charles Duelfer, darling of the neocons and appointed by George W. Bush to hunt for Iraq's (mythical) WMDs? I quoted his report, which concluded that "Israel's bombing of Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor spurred Saddam to build up Iraq's military to confront Israel in the early 1980s". Is he an apologist for Iran? How about Bob Woodward? Staines needs to pick up his game. So far, this is childish stuff.
Enter Mehdi Hasan with his call for me to "stick to blogging about bond markets and deficits and stay away from foreign affairs and, in particular, the Middle East." Fair enough, but what's he going to tell Bill Clinton (you know, former president of the United States and all that), speaking at the World Economic Forum in Davos in 2005, who said "...everybody talks about what the Israelis did at Osiraq, in 1981, which, I think, in retrospect, was a really good thing. You know, it kept Saddam from developing nuclear power."
Shock, horror! Staines quotes a sitting US president - one who has been described as "the most pro-Israel president" of the 20th century - saying he thinks Israel's attack on Iraq thing.
What would I "tell" Clinton? 1) That he's wrong. 2) That he knows he is wrong because if the Osiraq raid "kept Saddam from developing nuclear power", as Clinton argued in 2005, then why did the UN's weapons inspectors discover a nuclear weapons programme in Iraq, in the wake of the first Gulf War, and why did Clinton himself claim Saddam had "nuclear arms" in 1998? and 3) I would ask him to have a chat with Professor Richard Betts of Columbia University, one of America's leading scholars on nuclear proliferation and a former adviser to the CIA and the State Department. I quoted Betts as saying, in 2006:
Contrary to prevalent mythology, there is no evidence that Israel's destruction of Osirak delayed Iraq's nuclear weapons program. The attack may actually have accelerated it.
Staines uses the testimony from a partisan politician to avoid having to deal with the Betts quote. How convenient - and how unlike the anti-politican "Guido Fawkes" persona he likes to hide behind. Also, while we're on the subject of Bill Clinton, does Staines agree with Clinton's critique of the coalition's austerity measures? If not, why not? Why the selective quoting of Clinton?
The point is uncontestable, as long as you are clear about what is being claimed.
Hasan obviously isn't which is why he devotes much of his article to weirdly diversionary arguments on the questions of whether the strike on Osiraq encouraged Saddam to redouble his efforts, this time taking his nuclear programme underground.
Sorry, the point is quite clear: Staines claimed on Twitter that "Israel bombed Saddam's nuclear reactor and ended his nuclear ambitions". This isn't just contestable, it's wrong. Plain and simple. I'm not sure how pointing how Saddam didn't just continue his nuclear programme, but intensified it, weaponised it and took it outside of French and IAEA controls is "weirdly diversionary". The only one guilty of diversions and evasions here is Staines himself.
But that's irrelevant to the issue at hand which is how one assesses the balance of risk and reward prior to adopting a course of action, and what can reasonably be expected to be achieved right now. You can never know in advance of any given action precisely what the consequences will be. Nor can you know what the world would have looked like had you not taken such action. (That's logic Mehdi; go take a class in it.)
"Logic"? It's been around 13 years since I attended logic classes but I can guarantee that there's no logical reasoning on display in that previous paragraph at all. None. I'm not sure which classes Staines took at the Humberside College of Higer Education but formal logic clearly wasn't one of them.
The Israelis looked at Saddam Hussein - almost as big a Jew-hating fanatic as the warmongers in Tehran - saw he was building a nuclear capability, and rightly decided it was far too risky to allow Iraq to proceed. Any threat of weaponisation arising from Osiraq was eliminated along with the facility. That's my claim, and that's hard to refute.
Well, of course, if you're specific and narrow claim is that "any threat of weaponisation from Osiraq was eliminated along with he facility", then, of course, Staines is correct. But there's some rather brazen and embarrassing goal-post-shifting going on here. Remember: Staines claimed that "Israel bombed Saddam's nuclear reactor and ended his nuclear ambitions". And, as I've shown, and as the experts agree, it didn't. Even Bill Clinton agrees.
On a side note, Staines omits to mention the fact that Israel, during the period he refers to, chose to arm "the warmongers in Tehran". According to the Jaffee Institute for Strategic Studies at Tel Aviv Arms, arms sales to Iran were worth around $500 million between 1980 to 1983. Then there's Israel's role in the Iran-Contra affair. Funny how Staines fails to mention any of this. To borrow a later line from his blogpost: "An inconvenient truth perhaps?"
Eight Israeli F-16s destroyed five years of work in less than 90 seconds. On 8 June 1981, Iraq was once again years away from obtaining a nuclear weapon.
Er, I'm sorry to have to break it to Staines but, on 6 June, Iraq was also "years away from obtaining a nuclear weapon". Here's Professor Dan Reiter, a specialist on national security policy, writing in the The Nonproliferation Review in July 2005:
. . . before the Osiraq attack, both the French and the IAEA opposed the weaponization of Iraq's nuclear research program, and had a number of instruments to constrain weaponization, including control over reactor fuel supply and multiple and continuous inspections. After the Osiraq attack, the program became secret, Saddam's personal and material commitment to the program grew, and the non-proliferation tools available to the international community became ineffective.
The facts don't fit Staines's spin on behalf of Israel.
Of course, the magnificently executed attack on Osiraq did not mean Saddam would not have another go at acquiring nuclear weapons. And when he did have another go he was obviously going to do it as covertly as possible.
These are my favourite two sentences of the entire blogpost: buried in the middle of a random para. If the attack didn't prevent Saddam from having "another go at acquiring nuclear weapons", and that too as "covertly as possible", then how did it end his "nuclear ambitions" as Staines claimed in his original gaffe? And how does it serve as a template for military action against Iran? In these two sentences, Staines reinforces the argument that some of us have been making for months: attacking Iran's nuclear facilities 1) won't end their nuclear ambitions but just delay them, and 2) will lead to a covert intensification of Iran's nuclear programme. As former CIA director Michael Hayden has argued, attacking Iran:
would guarantee that which we are trying to prevent -- an Iran that will spare nothing to build a nuclear weapon and that would build it in secret.
I'm glad Staines, finally, agrees.
The best one may be able to hope for in such circumstances is that one delays a dangerous regime's acquisition of nuclear weapons until it is finally overthrown and replaced by something less unpalatable. Via a long and circuitous route at great cost in blood and treasure that is actually what happened in Iraq, and it shows why a policy of regime change is vital in and of itself but also as a complement to any military attack.
Is Staines claiming here that the Israeli attack on Osiraq in 1981 led to the fall of Saddam in 2003? Really? I mean, really?? And if that's the case, let's do the maths. There was a 22-year time gap between Osiraq and the fall of Saddam but an attack on Iranian nuclear facilities would set back Iran's nuclear programme by two or three years, according to former US defence secretary Robert Gates. So what do we do in the intervening twenty years until the mullahs fall, Paul? Keep bombing? Every two years? That's your plan? Fantastic. I bow to your Metternichian skills.
Now, I'm curious about something. I would never accuse Mehdi Hasan of being completely out of his depth, ignorant of basic facts or deliberately distorting a picture so as to produce a convenient outcome. But I do have a couple of questions for him about his article.
Great. Can't wait. Go on...
Why didn't he tell his readers that Israel was not the first country to attack Osiraq? Why didn't he say that none other than the Islamic Republic of Iran attacked Osiraq in September of the year prior to the Israeli operation, damaging the facility but failing to destroy it?
Er, because it's not relevant to our discussion about whether or not Osiraq offers a template for a future military action against Iran.
An inconvenient truth perhaps?
No, an irrelevant truth. More evasion from Staines. Stick to the subject, man!
Surely he would not have been concealing a piece of information that shows that it wasn't just the dreaded Jewish state that regarded Iraq's nuclear programme as a security risk; a devastating revelation that the very regime Hasan is desperate we do not attack today, was the one that set the precedent for using military force to destroy another country's nuclear programme in the first place. Oh, my. It's going to be a treat seeing how Mehdi gets out of this one.
How do I get out of it? By pointing out how 1) Iran was at war with Iraq, which had attacked it in 1980 with the encouragement and support of Staine's heroes, Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher. Israel, on the other hand, wasn't - which is why it was condemned by the members of the UN Security Council, including the United States. 2) Whether or not it was Iran or Israel that attacked Osiraq, my overall point still stands. It intensified Saddam's pursuit of a nuclear bomb. It didn't stop him or, as Betts points out, delay him:
Obliterating the Osirak reactor did not put the brakes on Saddam's nuclear weapons program because the reactor that was destroyed could not have produced a bomb on its own and was not even necessary for producing a bomb. Nine years after Israel's attack on Osirak, Iraq was very close to producing a nuclear weapon.
By the way, Staines curiously glosses over the fact that the Iranian strike on Osiraq in 1980 was encouraged by the . From the relevant Wikipedia page:
At the onset of the war, Yehoshua Saguy, director of the Israeli Military Intelligence Directorate, publicly urged the Iranians to bomb the reactor. . . a senior Israeli official met with a representative of the Khomeini regime in France one month prior to the Israeli attack.
Hmm. How does this fit with Staines's argument that Iran is a "deranged Islamist theocracy" bent on Israel's destruction? Why were Iran and Israel working together in the 1980s then? Guess the Iranians are more rational than Staines gives them credit for, and the Israelis aren't as fearful of Iran as apologists like Staines like to claim. Otherwise, how to explain the first (Iranian) strike on Osiraq, with Israeli support, that Staines so gleefully refers to?
Oh, my. It's going to be a treat seeing how Paul gets out of this one.
But back to the issue of the day.
Finally...
What do we do about Iran? In effect, Mehdi Hasan's answer is nothing. Which may be fine if you're Mehdi Hasan. But it's not quite so fine if you care about the future of the West and the survival of the State of Israel.
The Iranian regime has repeatedly threatened to destroy Israel.
No, sorry, it hasn't. I have dealt with this hoary old myth here. And here is the latest statement from the Iranian government on the subject.
It has backed up words with deeds in the form of the funding, arming and training of appalling Islamo-fascist terror groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah which are also committed to destroying Israel. It employs anti-Semitic rhetoric unheard of since the days of the Third Reich.
I don't deny that Iran has backed Hamas and Hizbollah - which, incidentally, were formed after Israel illegally invaded and occupied Palestinian and Lebanese land! - or that some Iranian leaders employ "anti-Semitic rhetoric" but how is this relevant to the debate over nukes? Pakistan and North Korea back terrorists and possess nukes - the former with the consent of the United States. And, lest we forget, Iran was backing Hamas and Hizbollah and deploying anti-Semitic rhetoric back in the eighties too, when Israel was selling it arms - why does Staines keep evading this issue? Oh, wait, because it doesn't fit his convenient and simplistic "Iran-is-a-deranged-theocracy-bent-on-destroying Israel" narrative.
Oh, and it's building a nuclear programme which every serious analyst in the world is concerned may lead Iran ultimately to acquire nuclear weapons.
Evidence, please! Staines knows full well that the consensus views of the US and Israeli intelligence agencies is that Iran is not "building a nuclear programme". The IAEA agrees. "Every serious analyst"? How about Leon Panetta, the US Defence Secretary? Here's Panetta speaking in January:
Are they trying to develop a nuclear weapon? No.
And here's Lieutenant General Ronald Burgess, director of the Defense Intelligence Agency, speaking in February:
[Iran] is unlikely to initiate or intentionally provoke a conflict or launch a preemptive attack.
Serious enough for you, Paul?
That is why the UN security council has implemented tough sanctions. That's why Israel is worried Mehdi, and since Israel is on the front line of the same civilisational battle as we are, that's why we should be worried too.
"Israel" isn't "worried". Netanyaho doesn't represent Israel as a whole. XX
In a previous article, this time for the Guardian last November, Mehdi argued that it would be "rational for Iran... to want its own arsenal of nukes" and in the same article asks us to accept that "bombastic" (his word, honestly) President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's "goal is only to develop a civilian nuclear programme, not atomic bombs". Muddled Mehdi wants us to rely on Ahmadinejad's irrationality for our security.
1) Since that article, both Ehud Barak and General Martin Dempsey, the chairman of the joints of staff in the United States, have agreed with my assessment that Iran is a rational actor. Poor Paul. 2) Poor Paul, like so many hawks, has a very limited understanding of how the Iranian government works. Ahmadinejad has nothing to do with any decision to stop or start building nuclear weapons; the person who decides whether Iran goes nuclear is the "Supreme Leader", Ayatollah Khamenei, who has repeatedly said he considers nuclear weapons to be unIslamic and sinful. You may not believe him but his views on this issue should at least be mentioned - and Staines is the one who mentioned how Iran is a "theocracy" so why not pay attention to the words of the theocrat-in-chief?
Finally, on the specific question, would a military attack be effective? No-one knows the answer for certain. The Osiraq precedent from 1981 certainly suggests that it could be. But there are no guarantees.
No, I'll give you a guarantee: if we attack Iran, it will be a disaster - both for the west's security and Israel's. We won't be able to prevent Iran building nukes unless we invade and occupy the country, burn down all the labs and kill all the scientists. Is that what Staines is arguing? If not, he should just keep quiet and stop posturing and invoking fraudulent historical analogies.
All we can do - those, that is, who truly appreciate what is at stake - is give our full support to military action if indeed it is taken, and hope against hope that it succeeds.
At least he's honest in his final paragraph. Staines wants war, and he wants us to uncritically support such an illegal, "preventive" and self-defeating war. He makes no mention at all of civilian casualties in his 1,300-word post (innocent Iranian women and children? Who cares!), nor does he analyse the potential, catastrophic consequences - from terrorist blowback in the west, to a secret Iranian weapons programme, to attacks on Israel, to a global oil price shock. For chickenhawks like Staines, this is all about, in the words of one academic, "mainstreaming" a war against Iran.
Latest tweets
More from New Statesman
- Online writers:
- Steven Baxter
- Rowenna Davis
- David Allen Green
- Mehdi Hasan
- Nelson Jones
- Gavin Kelly
- Helen Lewis
- Laurie Penny
- The V Spot
- Alex Hern
- Martha Gill
- Alan White
- Samira Shackle
- Alex Andreou
- Nicky Woolf in America
- Bim Adewunmi
- Glosswitch
- Kate Mossman on pop
- Ryan Gilbey on Film
- Martin Robbins
- Rafael Behr
- Eleanor Margolis
- Tools and services:
- Polls
- Predictions
- Archive
- Magazine
- PDF edition
- RSS feeds
- Advertising
- Subscribe
- Special supplements
- Stockists




















269 comments
He is one of you...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/03/man-claiming-to-be-jihad-shooting-susp...
"Man claiming to be jihad gunman called France 24, was "adamant" it was beginning of larger campaign, blames French niqab law, military intervention, grievances against "the Jews"
Not "Zionists," but "Jews."
The more excuses he piles on, the clearer it is that it is not ultimately about any of them. This, again, is about supremacism and antisemitism.
Excellent post by Mehdi
I think that's what they call a slam dunk!
@Lox
SO now you think you have some great intellectual insight to offer. As far as I can work out you are talking absolute crap. Your comments about Hamas are just too absurd to warrent comment. I cannot see anything that you have posted here which contributes to the debate. Why don't you think before you write, assuming you can do that. A person with a pea brain can see where you are coming from. Go save your bullshxx for somebody else. Your capacity for self deluded crap trap knows no bounds. Go lie down in a dark room,you need it. Your country, your lobby needs you.
@Sven
What about Israeli terrorists, those right wing nut jobs in the government
@sven
"Should we thus not condemn what happens in the a religion if that religion has a disproportionally high number of issues surrounding it "
can you please supply a proportion or percentage that you believe would be proportionate? until you've done so it will be impossible to answer your question.
"Should we not talk about a the driving force of the people, the mind set?"
that would be a good idea. instead though it appears that people are all too eager to blame religion as that driver, and dismiss all other factors as essentially irrelevant. that seems totally disingenuous and intellectually corrupt.
Preditable Julia aside, Mehdi has done a marvellous job in giving NS readers an alternative narrative to what we hear in the mainstream media. You won't find an equivalent discussion anywhere else in the UK media. Naturally the Zionist diehards are hard at work on these threads trying to discredit Mehdi and others who share his views mostly using underhand racial undertones.
Mehdi Hasan
Since Osirak didn't eliminate Saddam's quest for nuclear weapons of mass destruction surely invading Iraq to remove Saddam was the right thing to do?
Let's see you come below the line to explain why your article ISN'T a damn fine argument for why Bush and Blair were right about Iraq.
Irony Watch, part 9
"This, again, is about supremacism"
indeed, but who's supremacy is at stake exactly Julia..?
(oops missed some)
Irony Watch, part 10
"your telling lies, plain and simple"
indeed it is your forte Julia
Irony Watch, part 11
"What a fucking terrible lie."
but you have no fucking problem posting fucking lie after fucking lie Julia.
@FA
WHat you are advocating is pre emptive strikes which is illegal under international law. You pillock!
Irony Watch, part 12
"please answer my previous question to you, cant do it can you"
which is your standard approach to any and all questions Julia...
@Jankaas: 'brilliant people don't attack religion imho. it seems a rather arrogant thing to do.'
I find that strange. Are you telling me that Religion should be off-limits for intellectual challenge? Imho, there are many aspects of the religions that can be criticised. And are you serious? That some critics of religion are not brilliant? Perhaps it comes down to what you think is brilliant. I refer to clarity of thought, ability to organise material, logical thought.
But fair enough, your opinion is different.
Problem is, you don't appear on these blogs as just 'secular' (small s) but imho as aggresively so. That's the impression I got from your comments on other threads when you quite militantly professed your secularism. That's fine too, Jankaas. From my experience militantly secular people are also amenable to attack aspects of religion, and even the foundations of religion.
Would you agree with the right of fundamentalist interpreters of religions to attack secularism?
Also,a separate point: you ignored Arminius when he made antisemitic comments.
You did criticize Holocaust deniers here, that is true.
Methinks you won't watch Pat Condell because it was Julia who linked to it.
And the reason I won't answer your question in your previous email is because during that mini-exchange you ignored a part of my email and treated it as if it never existed.I gave a finger, you wanted a hand:)
In any case, Zionism as such is not the topic here. I commented on it because others had done so and I wanted to respond. This isn't the place for a discourse as such.
You know why Zionism exists, if you have forgotten then start with Wikepedia and then visit your library or bookshop and read about the fate of the S.S. St.Louis in 1938, the Evian conference etc. etc. Then take a visit to Amsterdam at Prinsengracht 263-267.
@Sven
Same old, same old. Like other Zionist supporters on this page, why don't you just come out and say what you mean. What you mean is that all Muslims are terrorist facists whose raison etre is destrution of the state of Israel and all Jews. Part of this hatred of course includes loathing of crypto Leftism.
Irony Watch, part 13
"this type of numbskull I’m debating with, yawn"
says Julia, the undisputed Queen of numbskulls.
@JJ
True to type you come back with these pointless one liners. Don't you ever have anything to say which is midly relevant. Cheap humour backfires as it does in your case. Save your claptrap for your zionist supporting cohorts. Does anybod really care what you say/
1. According to the Association for Civil Rights in Israel (ACRI), Arab citizens (below called Israeli Arabs) "are discriminated (against) in almost every aspect of their lives,"
2. We are talking about Israeli Arabs. Hamas???
3. Just as it is wrong of Hamas to deny Holocaust can you condemn the Plaestinian holocasut denial view where widepsread dispossession from the land is of the Palestinians own making. DO you believe it is right that Palestinians should pay the price for the European holocaust.
Let me hear you shout against the ongoing settlements that are illegal. Your selective amnesia is fooling nobody but yourself. You come back with tired well rehearsed lines. Platitudes aint going to do it for me. You seem to be obsessed about Israel and left wing moral superiority. I wonder why
I for one and sick and tired of the diehards at work on this page who hide behind I am so open and fair minded.
Julia, Queen of Israeli hearts. Now there's a surprise.
Long as you are top dog Julia. You are running out of excuses and lies. Dream on in your tiny, tiny world, inhabited by your tiny group of followers.
Polarisation between left and right on this page is not the issue. It is the slavish pathalogical support for Israel no matter what it does.
I have just seen a reference to woggistan on this page. I have yet to see anybody condemn this comment
Somebody help Julia, she needs a lesson in quitting when you are down.
"Are you telling me that Religion should be off-limits for intellectual challenge?"
not at all JJ. intellectual challenge is one thing, but 'attack' is something far more primitive. and the problem is that intellectually challenging something in the manner i have witnessed, by say Dawkins and Harris, is anything but intellectual. it's pure rhetoric and opinion. i demand a scientific analysis, that would be a genuine intellectual challenge. see the difference?
"I refer to clarity of thought, ability to organise material, logical thought."
indeed. and as per above i think this is absent. especially on these NS threads where opinion and volume appear to dominate.
"Problem is, you don't appear on these blogs as just 'secular' (small s) but imho as aggresively so. That's the impression I got from your comments on other threads when you quite militantly professed your secularism. "
and as you may also remember, or at least now realise from my comments so far in this post, i treat most atheists the same way i treat theists. both camps spend most if not all of their time imagining they are being reasonable and factual. nothing could be further from the truth.
" You did criticize Holocaust deniers here, that is true."
that's just the start of it, i despise people who use the Holocaust to try and win arguments and score petty points on blogs. the species shame that is the Holocaust should be treated with far greater respect. it's almost totally out of bounds imho.
"Methinks you won't watch Pat Condell because it was Julia who linked to it."
despite my desire not to, i did briefly view it and was deeply underwhelmed. tell you what JJ, pick your favourite excerpt from this "brilliant" man, and i'll tell you what i think. fair enough? just give me the time code and i'll watch it.
"I gave a finger, you wanted a hand"
not intentional. pls tell me which post (time & date) where you gave me the finger and i'll do my best.
Abel, what's my country? Or my lobby? I'm Scottish, not Israeli, and I'm not Jewish.
My remarks about Hamas are true. You don't like truth, do you? Not if it conflicts with your own prejudices anyway. You make yourself look so stupid, little man.
Alexis ,Plain john smtihs views wouldn't be tolerated at a EDL rally
Being an agnostic all this Arabs/Muslims versus Israel/Jews drivel is extremely depressing. Lets be honest, all your bloody religions are messed up. Sure every religion claims to be moderate and have a minority of extremeists but thet are just interpreting your holy book of choice the wrong way. Your book is peacful, and your God is merciful. Different religions, preaching the same defence of their way and same attack on others. You're all all bad as each other and lets be honest, if you're talking about which religion is repsonsible for the most abhorent relgious war killings, acts of terrorism etc, when its in the millions, is any one inthe right? Of course not. Just do us all a favour, go to sleep tonight and wake up tomorrow in the 21st century and stop praying to your made up friend in the sky and killing in his name. Grow up.
@Abel "You seem to be obsessed about Israel and left wing moral superiority."
Larry, I think we covered this one last night. If being left-wing involves supporting fascist and/or racist regimes it's not really morally superior is it.
Did you not understand the posting last night?
@Lox
SO where is your critical intelligent analysis. Not seen much evidence of this in your comments. Hiding behind a cloak of being reasonable may fool some, but not me.
@Lox
The only one looking stupid here is you. Yet again you are showing your ignorance about Hamas. No I am not interested in your so called truth. The only one who is looking little stupid around here is you with your pretentious clap trap. Pretentious nonsense can only take you so far. I am getting really bored with this. I know what you are going to say before you say it. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzz Yawn, yawn.!! Unless of course you are planning to surprise me with your insight. Stick with your merry band of men!!!!???
Scottish non Jewish with no axe to grind over Israel. Hmm. DO I really believe this shixx?
The key question here is when you have a mindset which supports Israel no matter what it does, is it any wonder that the other side sees little point in engaging in reasoanable sensible debate.
how about we get julia harris, staines, all of the commentator bloggers and tape them to a missle and then use that to bomb Iran's nuclear problem!
I love these chicken-hawks
And pigs would fly. Oink. Oink
@maverick
I'll be there ready with the tape. All these armchair theorists need to be on the front line. Have you noticed they are the ones that shout the loudest when it comes to war.
Karen,
I am not sure I understand. From what I can gather it is the right wing ideologues who are supporting Israel and it is the lefy wing ideologues who are against. SO what if you are neither left nor right but do not support Israel?
A good muslim is a dead muslim.
Good response(!) I like the do nothing approach.
"Mehdi is so "thick" that he thinks Bill Clinton was the "sitting US president" in 2005. That's what he says above"
nope, that's not what he wrote Non-Jewish. he wrote that Clinton was a former US president when appearing at Davos in 2005. this is factually correct.
so the question is; are you really really dense, or just hoping no-one would catch you out? i think i know the answer but would like to give you the chance to defend yourself...
I agree with everything Mehdi said, except I really don't like tacit elitism. So Staines didn't go to Oxford, Mehdi, he went to Humberside College of Higher Education? That, rather ironically, is a slight variation of the fallacy of the argument from authority. Don't get me wrong, Staines is incapable of building logical arguments at the best of times, but one doesn't need to have been educated at Oxbridge to apply logical reasoning. It's all rather ugly - part of the inherent problem with the establishment left.
@Dan
Methinks you suffer from reverse snobbery. Is that not what DC does.
Mehdi,
You present a compelling argument. I thought Staines was quite elegant in his exposition, but your analysis succeeds by eviscerating its flaws. However, I disliked this:
'"Logic"? It's been around 14 years since I attended logic classes at university but I can guarantee that there's no logical reasoning on display in that previous paragraph. None whatsoever. I'm not sure which classes Staines took at the Humberside College of Higher Education but Formal Logic clearly wasn't one of them.'
That was deeply unpleasant to see, especially as you have the capacity to present a sound argument without needing to stoop to this. Staines is not wrong because he went to Humberside College of Higher Education. And it is possible to interpret this part of Staines' argument differently to the way you do. You deliberately chose to equate 'logic' with 'formal logic'. As a man studied in formal logic, you should be very aware of the unjustified step you took when doing that.
Mehdi - 'Israel, on the other hand, wasn't at war with Iraq or under attack from Saddam - which is why it was condemned by the members of the UN Security Council'.
Fail, Mehdi.
The first part utterly untrue, the second part a stretching of the truth and only the third part true:
1. A state of war had existed between Israel and Iraq since 1948 when Iraq declared war on Israel. The state of war existed in 1981 at the time of Osirak.
2. Saddam sent forces, troops and aircraft to help the Syrians in the Yom Kippur war. There were skirmishes between the Israelis and the Iraqi forces.
3. There is documented written evidence of Saddam's wishes made in 1979 and 1980 about wanting to confront Israel with the help of a nuclear bomb which he believed would be a 'game changer'against Israel.
Saddam also believed that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were true and he regarded the elimination of Israel as one of his goals.
www.fpri.org/enotes/2011/201108.brands_palkki.iraqnuclear.pdf
Now, whether he was bluffing or not is another matter. But what responsible Israeli leader in possession of intelligence on Saddam's threats could afford to sit back, especially as it was only 35 years after WW2.
You are a disgrace, Mehdi.
@JJ
It is obvious to see that JJ is Zionist to the core and uses subterfuge to conceal his true identity. If you read all the threads on Iran/Israel he is always popping up either in defence of Israel or Julia. I wonder why. He commonly hides behind the anti semitism rhetoric which he thinks will deflect criticism of Israel. One thing is clear: JJ is anti Left wing. he is deeply committed to Israel, he thinks his views are superior to all others and, and WORST OF ALL he thinks he is fooling us.
YOU AINT FOOLING ME JJ. Con artists belong in te circus. Go forth, its where you belong.
I think what Sven means is that after say the Brevik killing, so much has been made about his motives and arguably he did right a manifesto so it was there in black and white, however there was much talk and media point scoring from the left about the threat from right wing terror - never materialized and was a red herring.
All that has been said about this guy is the usual summation that he has 'links to Al Qaeda' or that he was inspired by Al Qaeda. But in reality the things he relayed in a phone call to a television studio is the inconvenient truth that Islam over and above Al Qaeda is the root cause and that is so insidious in so many other terror and violent acts.
The fact his brother and mother supported his actions, his mother refused to urge him to surrender - isn't it telling that a warped psychopathic murderer should have such strong support from his immediate family for carrying out cold blooded murders of children??
Nobody in Breviks family supported his actions.
@ Bertie, where is the outrage in the Muslim world for his acts that go against the religion of peace?
@ Kris, You need to distinguish between people who with murder in the mind go out and kill innocent people in cold blood over and above those who are at war with terror groups and that during clashes with those same terror groups who use human shields as collateral damage and to play up to the media if any innocents are killed.
The liberal lefts keeps marching side by side with the Jihadi's who share a mutual hatred of the west and the Judeo-christian civilization and think they can use this alliance to control these religious fanatics.
@Sam
Mehdi's comment is tongue in cheek I think. However I think we should also be equally condemnatory of Staines and his ilk who think they are superior to left wingers, Sneering and carping from the sidelines is what Staines does best. I guess not getting selected to represent his beloved Tory Party must be eating him inside.
"This is not about territory, and it certainly isn't about justice or human rights, because Arab societies don't know the meaning of those words. It's about Jew-hatred, as mandated by the Qur'an and as preached in the mosques and taught to the children in Arab countries day in and day out, generation after poisoned generation."
Now why am I surprised that Julia nad JJ find dear Pat inspirational
Another thing: There were no guarantees that Iraq would be thwarted and as you write we were in the same situation again in 2003.
But time was gained.
To sit back in 1980-81 was not an option.
Also, unlike in the current Iranian situation, the heads of Mossad were NOT warning against an attack on Iraq.
Willoyen comments that "....Hamas and Hizbollah...are legitimate resistance movements fighting illegal occupations.". Interesting definition of legitimate: Hizbollah is an instrument of Iranian interference in Lebanon, dedicated to the obliteration of Israel-not a consensus between Jew and Arab, or a just two state solution: but obliteration. Hamas, on the other hand, advocates the killing of Jews-not Israelis. But, they're both anti-Israeli, which clearly legitimises them on your eyes, doesn't it, willy? Both "legitimate liberation movements" would, I expect, despise almost everything most NS readers buy into: political and sexual pluralism, secularism and gender equality. But they don't like Israel, so they're clearly to be admired.
Of course, I'm only saying this because I'm part of the Zionist conspiracy hovering around NS threads. Not because I just want to disagree with people whose positions are built round dogma and received wisdom rather than any intelligent critical analysis.
Anyway, that apart-the facts of the article are interesting. Your catfight with Staines isn't, Mehdi.
So one man in France out of billions of Muslims on this planet, speaks for Muslims. What great reductivist insight.