“We screamed from the horror of it all”

10 comments from readers

writeon
21 August 2008 at 23:02

I think Lubov is right when he says that the Russian reaction to the Georgian attack on South Ossetia is a serious warning meaning 'You mess with Russia at your peril'. And this is perfectly reasonable seen from the perspective of the ruling elite. They are drawing a line in the sand and saying 'This far and no further. We been pushed and pushed, and now we're pushing back.'

Now, one can dismiss this view as paranoid or an excuse for military agression, yet it's widespread in Russia and it isn't just because the Russian media is supposedly 100% under govenment control. It isn't by the way, but that's another story. The British media isn't far off that level either if you ask me, and if one looks at the way the American media have dealt with the crisis, it's arguable that it's more "free" than the Russian.

The point is, if the Russians believe we mean them harm, and are encircling them and getting ready to attack them, first through a proxy in Georgia and we are building a rocket base in Poland which is part of a nuclear first-strike capcity and nothing to do with the absurd claim that it's aimed at Iran; then what are we going to do to reassure the Russians and prove that we want to be friends? How could we go over the heads of their nasty leaders and talk directly to the Russian people?

How about inviting the Russians to join NATO and the European Union? That would surely show them that we were serious when we talk about inviting them to become an integrated part of the free and democratic world wouldn't it?

michaelpetek
22 August 2008 at 13:05

Leo Kachmazov's contribution is instructive. He said: "Almost everyone here is a Russian citizen. Our state language is Russian. We have nothing to do with Georgia."

He's right. The inhabitants of Tskhinvali automatically ceased to be Georgian citizens when they were naturalised within the past five years as Russians.

So the question now is, why did Russia not take the plenty of time it has had to evacuate its nationals out of harm's way, instead of enforcing their residence in a country without local residence visas?

This is thoroughly irresponsible of Russia.

Suppose now that the USA were to hand out its passports and citizenhip to the 1.5 million Russian citizens living opposite Alaska, in Chukotka, Kamchatka, Magadan and Sakha.

Would it be entitled to invade and annex the place under the pretext of protecting its nationals?

writeon
22 August 2008 at 22:53

Michael,

Is this all a tribal thing or what? Is it simply because the Russians aren't your tribe? Is that why you appear to hate them so? Up to justifying war against them? This is close to pathelogical behaviour, you are aware of this I suppose?

The people of South Ossetia are not really 'Russians' in the sense of being members of the dominant slavic group. They are really closer to Iranians and their language is a form of Iranian. Is that why you have such animosity towards them? They have lived in this region for more than a thousand years, probably two thousand years. Nobody has the right to tell them to leave if they don't want to or bombard them or force them to flee from their homes and land.

Your 'arguments' based on an arcane view of the primacy and importance of 'law' increasingly remind me of the bogus arguments of ultra-nationalist Zionists in Israel who falsely believe that they have a right, a mandate, an entitlement, almost a legal foundation in Biblical 'law' coming from God, to ethnically cleanse an area of it's people and simply take it over using force.

The example you present with such a flourish is an oversimplification, as usual. The answer is simple too. No, the Americans would not be 'entitled' to invade and annex eastern siberia under the 'pretext' of protecting its nationals? Of course that wouldn't stop them from invading the region if they made that choice.

The Russians have not annexed South Ossetia under the pretext of protecting their nationals. They moved forces into the region to protect them from ethnic cleansing and being driven out of their historic homeland. The people were not given Russian passports to turn them into Russian nationals, but as a symbolic act to reasure them that they would be protected and signal that any attack on them would have consequences and would be resisted.

In fact the Americans have done something pretty much the same when they invaded Grenada with massive military force under the pretext that American trourists were being attacked and were under threat. They then installed a pro-American government which has robbed the country blind and virtually destroyed the country's economy.

EM
23 August 2008 at 04:34

There's a very interesting and instructive article about all of this at cluborlov, "The Trouble with Georgia

http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/08/trouble-with-georgia.h...;

Then there's this extremely sobering article by Paul Craig Roberts, 
Assistant Secretary of the US Treasury in the Reagan administration
and famed as the "Father of Reaganomics".


In "Are You Ready for Nuclear War"
he says: "It is obvious that American foreign policy, 
with its goal of ringing Russia with US military bases, 
is leading directly to nuclear war.  
Every American needs to realize this fact." 

http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts08192008.html
;


EM
23 August 2008 at 04:56

So sorry, try this, hope they work, just have to pass such well-informed views on before I can sleep with a clear conscience.

"The Trouble with Georgia"



"Are You Ready for Nuclear War"



EM
23 August 2008 at 05:44

Trying again:

The Trouble with Georgia http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2008/08/trouble-with-georgia.h...

Are You Ready for Nuclear War http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts08192008.html

michaelpetek
23 August 2008 at 07:15

Writeon, it doesn't matter why the Ossetians were given Russian passports. All that matters is that Russia is the only country they have legal ties to and the only country they have a fundamental human right to reside in.

Suppose a Welshman, whose ancestors have been here since the Stone Age, becomes a citizen of Chile which does not recognise dual nationality. Therefore he has to renounce British citizenship.

From now on he has the right to live only in Chile, but not the UK, and is subject to immigration control.

Your example of the US invasion of Grenada isn't well taken. The justifications actually given by the US forits invasion were, admittedly, strained.

But the objective justificatons that could have been given include the fact that the invasion was authorised post facto by Grenada's Governor-General Paul Scoon, the last remnant of pre-revolutionary constitutional order in Grenada, and by the fact that Grenada was under the power of a Communist Party.

Communist Parties are conspiracies per se to commit crimes against humanity and genocide, and are therefore threats to international peace as such.

That's arguably the law now, whether or not it was the law in 1983.

writeon
23 August 2008 at 20:07

Michaelp,

Try again, must do better, close to incoherent ramblings.

Sophocles
28 August 2008 at 23:07

writeon,

'The Russians have not annexed South Ossetia under the pretext of protecting their nationals'.

OK, but... what they are doing in Poti port, 200km away from SO? In Senaki, 150km away from SO? In Upper Kodori Gorge, 500km Away from SO?

"They moved forces into the region to protect them from ethnic cleansing and being driven out of their historic homeland."

OK, but... who do they protect in Gori region, Kareli region, Zugdidi region, Poti region, far, far away from SO? Why all Georgian villages are burnt in SO and all ethnic Georgians are expelled to Tbilisi (150,000)?

"The people were not given Russian passports to turn them into Russian nationals, but as a symbolic act to reasure them that they would be protected and signal that any attack on them would have consequences and would be resisted."

OK, but ... why old Georgians in Georgian villages in SO, who could not flee, are forced to take Russian Passports now, today, at this moment when I write this text? Do they also need protection from fascist Georgians who happen to leave outside the SO?

Sophocles
28 August 2008 at 23:11

"The Georgians shelled peaceful people who were asleep. It was direct artillery fire from 80, 100 and 200mm guns. They entered Tskhinvali in their tanks and killed women and children."

Why does every Ossetian who survived Georgian bombardment by miracle, repeats exactly these words? How come that all of them are experts in artillery guns? And why the int'l organizations could not find more than 44 dead bodies (no women, no chidren) if Tskhinvali was so severly bombed?