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Chávez's U-turn on socialism

Stephanie Blankenburg

Published 08 January 2008

Venezuela-based economic advisor and analyst, Stephanie Blankenburg, on what could be Chávez's fight for survival

On 2 January, a month on from his defeat in a referendum about a socialist reform of the county’s constitution, President Hugo Chávez Frías of Venezuela performed a stunning political U-turn.

In typically flamboyant style, he made a surprise call to Venezolana de Televisión, the country’s main state-owned TV channel, “to drop a ‘bombita’ (small bomb)” on an unsuspecting public: He had decided to abandon his socialist agenda “for now” in order to form stronger alliances with the country’s middle classes, its private sector and the national bourgeoisie instead.

To dispel any doubts about his seriousness in adopting this new political course, he replaced vice-president, Dr Jorge Rodríguez – the public face of his campaign for “21st century socialism” in Venezuela – with Ramón Carrizales, a military officer and technocrat, known for his good relationships with the country’s business sector.

Perhaps more significantly still, Chávez had already signed an end-of-the year amnesty for imprisoned perpetrators of a right-wing coup attempt against him in 2002.

The President’s version of events

Two days later, on his Sunday TV show “Aló Presidente” (Hallo, President), Chávez presented his fully reshuffled new cabinet and set out to explain the rationale for his action. His socialist project had been defeated, because the country had not been ready for such a radical approach.

The only democratic response was to acknowledge defeat and to adopt a more gradual and inclusive way forward. Apart from broadening alliances to bring private business and the middle classes back into the fold, this would also mean a more careful focus on mass education and communal self-organisation. Socialism had not been abandoned, but postponed, although, by the sound of things, for quite some time to come.

Chávez’ analysis of the current situation certainly has the pleasant ring of reasonableness to it. There also is little doubt, even amongst the most fervent socialists in Venezuela, that the agenda for “21st socialism”, adopted in January 2007 as abruptly as it has now been abandoned, had been rushed in with too much haste, limiting space and time for public consultation and debate of often complex issues.

Yet, the solidity of this analysis stands and falls with the correctness of its main premise – that the failure of voters to approve the constitutional reform project in the referendum of 2 December was a vote against socialism. This is much less clear.

What is clear is that the defeat of Chávez’ reform project at the polls is down to the abstention of roughly three million voters, who only a year earlier had voted for him as their president on the same socialist platform.

Compared to the December 2006 presidential elections, the opposition did not gain any votes. It seems unlikely such a substantial bloc of Chávez supporters should have been deterred merely by deficient campaigning a year after enthusiastically endorsing him.

In fact, a closer look at electoral patterns reveals a clear protest vote, not against a socialist agenda, but against corrupt administrations, at the national and the regional level.

Chavismo and the ‘oil curse’

To understand, where this protest vote came from and why it outweighed the pro-Chavez and pro-socialism vote, it helps to remember that Venezuela is defined by only one thing – oil.

For almost a century, the state has been a gigantic machine to distribute oil rent. In this context, left and right have a rather different meaning from their usual connotations.

On one side of a profound societal divide, there are those who benefit from oil from the very rich elites down to middle-rank state employees with comfortable pension arrangements.

On the other side, there are those who are excluded from a share in this bounty, the poor and the lower middle classes.

Not surprisingly, the main objective of the “insiders” is to defend and expand their share in the country’s oil wealth. Those on the outside divide into the small group with some chance of eventually making it to the inside, and the much larger group of people without any realistic chance of ever getting there.

The latter are, or used to be, core Chávez supporters: Their only hope is structural reform that dismantles the distributive rent state and replaces it by a productive developmental state. Until now, they had set their hopes on Chávez.

That these hopes have been rattled, is only marginally to do with a hasty referendum campaign, or with the people’s ideological immaturity.

On the contrary, one of the most impressive achievements of Chavismo is precisely the very high degree of political awareness and education amongst the poor.

No, the vote outcome has everything to do with the accession of many a Chavista to the rank of “insider” over the past eight years. This process has been gradual, and perhaps inevitable in a society in which institutionalised rentier-mechanisms have been endemic for decades.

But the contradiction between a radical socialist government agenda and the “Chavista elite”, bent on defending its share in the oil rent, effectively came to a head last year.

Far from being a left-wing administration, the bulk of ministerial positions in the old cabinet, as well as many governorships, remained in the hands of the “Chavista right”, or “new insiders”.

For example, the new vice-president, Ramón Carrizales, is also ex-minister of Housing, a core social policy ministry.

All through 2007, the battle between this “Chavista elite” and the “Chavista street” was fought out within government, with the so-called left-wingers, led by Jorge Rodríguez, in the minority.

It is an open secret in Venezuela that many governors, while publicly campaigning for a 'yes' vote in the referendum, used their resources to mobilise for the no-vote behind the scenes.

Equally an open secret is the sudden destabilisation of the economy through food shortages and an escalating black market dollar exchange rate which was at least allowed to linger on for longer than necessary.

A ‘soft coup’ or a return to electoral glory?

So the Chávez U-turn looks a lot less radical. For one, the new cabinet resembles its predecessor more than it differs from it. More importantly, it is not at all obvious the strategy of a shift to the “right” will help to pacify the country and stabilize the economy.

Why? Well if it is correct that the result of 2 December was essentially a protest vote by the “Chavista street” against the “Chavista elite”, then giving the latter free range is unlikely to boost Chávez with the popular base.

Yet, this popular base is all that stands between him and a ‘soft coup’ by an emboldened middle class, made up of the “Chavista elite”, the largely a-political state bureaucracy and moderate such as ex-General Raúl Baduel, a former ally and defence minister who joined the opposition ranks in November 2007.

After all, with the control over the country's state apparatus and economic resources firmly in the hands of these groups, and a weakened popular base for Chávez, perhaps unable to deliver election future victories, why would the middle classes and their allies in the new and old elites still need Chávez?

Chávez is too much of a seasoned politician not to know this. If he still has chosen this course, it is not necessarily because it is of his liking or even of his making alone. It simply reflects the real distribution of power on the ground. His most important response is not the much publicized government reshuffle, but his decision to accelerate the organisation of a Chavista mass party, the United Socialist Party of Venezuela (PSUV).

The task of getting this new mass party up to speed is an uphill one, especially with a “Chavista” government in place that has no interest in promoting such a move, and the popular base alienated.

But unless Chávez – and the PSUV – win the regional and municipal elections scheduled for November 2008, Venezuela might well have a new president before the year is out.

In charge of the unenviable task to built a mass party in a few months and to win elections by the end of the year is none other than Jorge Rodríguez.


Dr Stephanie Blankenburg is Lecturer in International Political Economy in the Economics Department at the School of Oriental and Social Studies (SOAS), London. She is currently on secondment to Venezuela as an economic advisor and analyst. This article reflects her personal analysis and is unrelated to any government views or policies.

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67 comments from readers

gnuneo
08 January 2008 at 13:51

brilliant analysis!

on such quality articles is the NewStatesman's reputation guaranteed.

it is to be much hoped for the benefit of the Venezuelan people, that the new PSUV learn a lesson about the corruption of 'chavista elite', and instead turn to proper democratic socialism/capitalism - the mass introduction of cooperatives and capitalist partnerships, that will slowly erode the power base of the chavista and non-chavista elites, and chavez himself recognise that a truly democratic evolution cannot come about by instead putting all the power into the hands of elected officials, the castroist route, and instead turn to the S american success stories, the argentian cooperatives.

even in cuba, this sector is proving itself to be the most dynamic, innovative and economically successful element of the economy.

chavez must learn to limit his own desires for power, and the inevitable cronyism that follows.

Jane Greene
08 January 2008 at 14:20

Yes a genuinely fascinating and calm piece of writing - unlike so much the usual ranting invective on this subject. Let's sit back and watch the usual lunatics ruin it.

Laurenceofberk
09 January 2008 at 02:05

The best solution to Venezuela's economic problems is to intensify socialist democracy - intelligently. If food is too scarce to meet new demand, then underutilized land, of which there is a great deal, needs to be given to peasants. Land reform so far has been painfully slow. And distribution companies found guilty of hoarding should also be expropriated and turned over to cooperatives. Can the "Chavista street" organize towards a cooperative society, or will it respond to Chavez's social democratic half measures by sinking into passivity, defeatism and right wing seduction?

Harry
09 January 2008 at 02:43

I do enjoy reading all these armchair lefties reliving their 60s fantasies from the comfort of their living rooms! Nice one, guys! Unfortunately, you forget one little problem: communism does work.

Maybe you should get over it? We re not all equal! What on earth makes you think that this communist revolution wont end like all the rest? Inflation, followed by economic decline and dictatorship, followed eventually by counter-revolution. Venezuela has always been very poor, very corrupt, and very inefficient. You think itll be different there? You think they should try it? I think you should know better. Maybe you should grow up?

Laurenceofberk
09 January 2008 at 07:49

Hello Harry. Let's hope we can debate the course of socialism and capitalism without invective.

The "communist" revolutions of the 20th century, in Russia and China, arose out of catastrophic poverty, centuries of monarchy, and devastating world war fought on their territories, made worse, in the case of Russia, by an invasion of counter-revolutionary armies from 13 countries AFTER the world war. Not a recipe for any kind of humane or democratic society, socialist or capitalist.

Venezuela, on the other hand, has had a substantial middle class, thanks to oil, and a flawed but ongoing tradition of democracy. Perhaps something different can happen there, if it is not, as was the case in Chile and in Nicaragua, interrupted by economic and military sabotage sponsored by the United States.

Chavez did not start out as a socialist, and his more native inclination is toward social democracy. He lifted millions out of poverty by diverting oil revenue into the barrios - subsidized food, education, health care and cooperative work projects. But he has not ensured the food supply by granting UNUSED land to peasant cooperatives (that project has only just begun), and by expropriating corporations which have hoarded food. Companies whose owners have not abandoned their factory or office have been protected

against worker takeovers. Rich people in SUV's continue to be subsidized with 9 cents a gallon gasoline at the expense of public transportation for the poor.

Can there be decentralized, democratic, cooperative socialism in Venezuela? Only if people organize for it.

What is frustrating about Chavez and about the recent referendum is that the progressive measures in it - social security for informal workers, more cooperatives, greater powers for the neighborhood councils - would most likely have passed if Chavez had not mucked them up with his own ego and power; indefinite re-election, and power to appoint regional governors. A joking boast, for god's sake, that he could serve til he was ninety if the people wanted him.

Power has, as they say, gone to his head

Cooperative Socialism does not require economic equality. (In Mondragon in Spain, a cooperative network of about 40,000 workers, the disparity is 5 to 1) It is merely the extension of democracy to the level of the workplace. It is the maturity of the human race, when we will have evolved beyond the need to dominate. Whether the people of Venezuela have the will and the skill to evolve toward social cooperation remains to be seen. But if we do not destroy ourselves, there will be many other experiments. Meanwhile, thanks to Stephanie Blankenburg and to you Harry, for the discussion

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 07:59

@Harry

"communism does work. "

I agree with Harry. I think the US will see the light ... and revert to communism - very, very soon.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 09:03

whoops! Youre right for once Cybertiger- I wrote it wrong. "Communism doesnt work" is what I meant. However, only a buffoon like you could think that America will soon become communist...

Laurenceofberk, I agree with a number of your points. However, Venezuela has nowhere near as large a middle class as Eastern Europe did, even after the second world war. Indeed, the middle class that existed has been leaving as Chavez cemented his power. The vast, vast majority of Venezuelans are poor, uneducated, and not particularly enclined to work. Im sure that some people will take offence to this, but after working in Venezuela and living there on and off for many years, this is the conclusion that I have come to. Venezuela has also always been incredibly corrupt, with a tiny business class and large, beaurocratic, inefficient and fairly left wing political class. This time it will not be any different.

"But he has not ensured the food supply by granting UNUSED land to peasant cooperatives (that project has only just begun), and by expropriating corporations which have hoarded food. Companies whose owners have not abandoned their factory or office have been protected against worker takeovers."

Unused is the wrong word here. When a group of Chavez supporters move onto land owned by a farmer or a house owned by someone in the middle class, they are NEVER removed by the police. This happens all over the country- and is encouraged by the people in the local administration. If land is protected, it is because it is owned by someone with links to the regime. Partly because of this and partly because of the governments subsidising of food, Venezuela produces almost no food at all anymore. Private property is not respected. Hell, even Polar, the Venezuelan beer company is moving to Colombia! The country cant be much worse for private industry.

Something to bare in mind when discussing Chavez' democratic credentials- he allows fairly free and fair elections. However, this does not make him a democrat. There are a lot of little tricks which you will not read about here. For example, members of the opposition press are regularly shot. The Venezuelan version of the BBC which used to be fairly neutral is now a government mouthpiece. The main opposition channel has been closed and another is being threatened. Chavez has made a media empire for himself involving radio, magazines, and television channels, while simultaneously eroding press freedom. If you vote against the government, they may know and they may use it against you. My father's wife was told she could not have a passport because she voted against Chavez. All state institutions check your background before giving you a job (in a country where private enterprise is virtually destroyed).

I dont want to write too much here as Im not writing an essay, but this is a major oil exporter during a time of 100 dollars a barrel oil. If Chavez had been a business friendly, competent man with decent ideas, and had used that money to fix the infrastructure and lower taxes, Venzuela could be a first world country by now. Instead, it has a higher murder rate than Colombia, worse inequality than it did before, and it even produces less oil than it did before.

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 09:39

"I dont want to write too much here as Im not writing an essay ..."

Mozart wrote too many notes ... and Harry writes too many words ....

Harry
09 January 2008 at 09:50

Oh dear Cybertiger if youre not intelligent enough to debate, why dont you go somewhere else? What do you mean "Mozart wrote too many notes"?! Couldnt you think of a better example?!

You know, writing a few paragraphs is a lot better than your usual one liner, which somehow tends to include about twenty contradictions or made-up words. Go to Yahoo chat, moron.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 09:51

One thing Im curious about, Cybertiger (as Im sure youll come back with some moronic banter)- what do you do for a living? Do you have a job??

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 10:15

@Harry

"what do you do for a living?"

I tend to the sick and needy (like you) ... and save lives of course ... but for you I could make an exception to that rule. Apart from Yahoo chat, what do you do in the fat capitalist world outside Caracas?

Harry
09 January 2008 at 10:31

No kidding! You wipe people's asses eh? Im amazed that youre intelligent enough to do a job like that! Ah the joys of capitalism eh? Theres something even for a moron like you.

Im a self-employed graphic designer. I do website design and animation.

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 11:16

@Harry

"You wipe people's asses eh? Im amazed that youre intelligent enough to do a job like that!"

Even though he wasn't a communist, Harold Shipman remains my spiritual mentor ... when it comes to capitalist folk (oink, oink) like Harry. I prefer to kick capitalism's ass ... from here to Venezuela ... and to those northern parts beyond ...

Harry
09 January 2008 at 11:23

And how, exactly, do you "kick capitalism's ass", Cybertiger?

Colonel Blimp
09 January 2008 at 12:12

I kicked a captain's arse once. These things come up in years of military service.

Robert Powell
09 January 2008 at 12:25

You're not that employed are you Harry? I mean you're always on here blethering on!

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 12:27

Do have a cigar, Colonel. Would you do me the honour of kicking Cap'n Harry's hairy capitalist arse from here to Havana? Thank you kind sir.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 12:40

Actually, Robert- Im online a lot because I work on the internet. Nice post though- youre on the same intellectual level as Cybertiger here- do you clean people's asses for a living too?

Cybertiger, quit sucking up to other people and answer my question- how do you "kick capitalism's ass"? Or was that just your usual gibberish?

gnuneo
09 January 2008 at 12:41

"Yes a genuinely fascinating and calm piece of writing - unlike so much the usual ranting invective on this subject. Let's sit back and watch the usual lunatics ruin it."

:sighs:

cybertiger and harry - could you PLEASE remember that OTHERS use these pages as well, and limit your hatred of each other to a single comment?

thanks.

Laurenceofberk: excellent comment, i agree completely.

Robert Powell
09 January 2008 at 12:47

Yes well it's hard to compete with the might of your mind. Colonel, give the pinhead a good kick from me too. Might knock his unengaged mind into first. Although I somehow doubt it. Interesting article about Chavez by the way.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 12:51

And youre very engaged arent you? In case you didnt notice- Ive written more about Chavez than anyone else here. Somewhat more than your wonderful "Interesting article about Chavez by the way".

Colonel Blimp
09 January 2008 at 12:53

My dear chap you should get out more.

Jane Greene
09 January 2008 at 12:54

Children please!

Harry
09 January 2008 at 13:00

Is that so colonel? Well, at least two of my posts contained opinions related to the article- which is more than I can say for yours. Indeed, you seem to have a lot of spare time too. Isnt capitalism wonderful?

Robert Powell
09 January 2008 at 13:00

Oh Jane, don't calm it all down. Harry was about to crack. Anyway, he'll be on next saying Cuba hasn't been a massive success. You don't get much more insightful that our brilliant, highly-employed Harry.

Colonel Blimp
09 January 2008 at 13:01

Colonel retired old boy, colonel retired. Years of servicing the Queen.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 13:05

"Harry was about to crack. Anyway, he'll be on next saying Cuba hasn't been a massive success."

Erm and youd say that it has?! Yes, Im about to crack. With insights like that, how could I not?! Cuba, with a population of people with shoes made of spinach. Cuba, with a dictator who's been in charge for almost half a century. Yes, when Im up against people who think that that is a success, I certainly cant compete!

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 13:13

"Colonel retired old boy, colonel retired. Years of servicing the Queen."

I currently work in the prison service, pleasuring Her Majesty!

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 13:14

@gnuneo

"cybertiger and harry - could you PLEASE remember that OTHERS use these pages as well, and limit your hatred of each other to a single comment?"

War or peace, love and hate, Chavez and Dubya, big boys or little ... learn a bit of tolerance, be a little more tolerant ... please tolerate ... un morceau.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 13:15

Well Ill assume then that what you said earlier was gibberish, hence the inability to answer my question.

"I currently work in the prison service, pleasuring Her Majesty!"

Doesnt that contradict what you said earlier?

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 13:17

"I currently work in the prison service, pleasuring Her Majesty!"

Yes Harry, I wipe prisoners bottoms ... and the rest ...

Harry
09 January 2008 at 13:23

Well, I guess that is the kind of job people without opinions end up with!

Robert Powell
09 January 2008 at 13:37

Whereas humourless people end up in graphic design.

Colonel Blimp
09 January 2008 at 13:39

I blame my Cuban spinach shoes for my corns - which incidentally are also a fantastic alternative food source when you're plane crashes in the desert.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 15:24

"I blame my Cuban spinach shoes for my corns - which incidentally are also a fantastic alternative food source when you're plane crashes in the desert."

Hoho yes Robert Powell, I guess I have to be pretty humourless not to find that funny! Or indeed Cuban. Not that Cubans are humourless, or even because they probably do have medical problems on their feet from wearing shoes made out of spinach- but because they arent allowed to use the internet. Ho ho ho funny joke though! Too funny and intellectual for me- Im off! On a final funny joke though- maybe you guys should move to Cuba! Hohoho put your money where your mouth is! Hohoho thatll be the day!

Cybertiger
09 January 2008 at 15:37

"Communism doesnt work" is what I meant. However, only a buffoon like you could think that America will soon become communist... "

@Harry

It's the anti-domino effect, stupid! If Chavez can flip flop on socialism then the Americans will have to flop the other way on capitalism. I'll bet the Yanks'll all be communists by Christmas.

PS. He's not going to be diagnosed irony deficient: I'll also bet Chavez eats his spinach, shoes and all.

Robert Powell
09 January 2008 at 16:19

Colonel I fear we may have upset Harry.

Harry
09 January 2008 at 23:06

Im afraid not mr powell! It was after midnight so I called it a night. Unfortunately, now that Im back I still havent read any interesting debate- just lots of nonsense from the usual New Statesman lefties. The usual- they back Cuba, but cant defend it, they back Chavez but wont discuss him. Oh well, I suppose youd have to be a bit thick to still be on the hard left anyway! Thats why no one listens to you!!! Ill be off now- you can debate socialism with the exceptionally moronic Cybertiger here, who you might realise later doesnt actually have any opinions other than the ones he takes from other people. Enjoy!

Cybertiger
10 January 2008 at 09:30

@Harry

"It was after midnight so I called it a night."

You don't live in a communist country then? I'll bet you're in bed with Islamists - and with those nasty fascists underneath it? Am I right - or am I right - and left?

angrywelshman
10 January 2008 at 10:08

Ok Harry here goes. Venezuela is a society polarised along racial and economic lines. They have had a series of corrupt right-wing governments (and a couple of left ones) but the bottom line is that the huge oil wealth of the country hasn't been used to benefit the whole nation. Those descended from the colonists have benefited but not those who are actually indigenous - arguably the people to whom the oil actually belongs. The white and wealthy live in their own ghettos behind big walls and with private security. The poor live without healthcare or education in slums, often subjected to terrible crime. Agree or disagree with Chavez he has actually done something to try and tackle some of these inequalities. A friend of mine from Argentina told me Chavez was South America's Gadaffi; I've also heard him compared to Peron; Chavez himself likes to invoke Fidel and Bolivar - a strange mixture when you look at it. The trouble with Chavez is almost not what he has done but where he could end up - he has all the makings of a tinpot dictator albeit one with access to huge oil wealth. I think the question really is the effect of his policies. If I may say so, the claim you make Harry about your serious contributions to the debate ring a little hollow when you keep on insulting people. It's also - if you know anything at all about the left - a ludicrous claim to suggest New Statesman readers (they're mainly liberals not socialists) back Communist Cuba or that they are hard left. You choose to blur the divides between all those on the left because it is easier to throw the dung of post-Stalin communism (it always sticks, in your mind) than engage with those of us who want to limit the excesses of capitalism. Capitalism is very blasé about the importance of rights and lives - a bit like Stalinism. In all of this it's pretty fatuous to try to claim the political situation in Venezuela compares to developed liberal democracies in the rest of the world. They perhaps have to adopt more radical policies for now as part of their journey towards a more stable politics. Hope this helps!

Harry
10 January 2008 at 11:47

I wasnt going to post here again, but angrywelshman, youre wrong in practically all of your post. Its full of the usual assumptions and stereotypes.

"They have had a series of corrupt right-wing governments (and a couple of left ones)"

No, theyve had a series of very statist, left wing leaders, and a few that (badly) privatised certain industries in order to enrich themselves. Theyve never developed anything like a free-market economy.

"the huge oil wealth of the country hasn't been used to benefit the whole nation."

But it never does! If a country exports bananas, the profit doesnt go to everyone does it? It goes to the people who did the work, and a trickle down effect then makes the economy as a whole stronger. Its not going to solve all the country's problems.

"The white and wealthy live in their own ghettos"

No, colour has nothing to do with it! Youre confusing what you read about Bolivia with what you read about Venezuela. Venezuela is a different country.

"Agree or disagree with Chavez he has actually done something to try and tackle some of these inequalities."

Disagree. According to recent statistics (from the BBC website), inequality has increased there. The middle class has been wiped out. What he was trying to do is make a communist country. That involves the people at the top having everything and the people at the bottom being slaves to the system, while everything in the middle is removed.

As for calling this a liberal website- well, considering how respected Cuba-backing Pilger is here, Id call it more left wing. There's nothing liberal about Cuba! All you have to say is "that Castro goes on a bit, doesnt he?!" And that's the end of you.

Harry
10 January 2008 at 11:53

"I'll bet you're in bed with Islamists - and with those nasty fascists underneath it"

Time to develop some opinions, Cybertiger!

angrywelshman
10 January 2008 at 12:26

What you do Harry is a thing called projection - it's common on threads about Israel too. You assume, you assert without research and you confuse fact with opinion. Then you make out everyone else does the same as you. But you don't actually know about Venezuela - if you've ever been there - you've failed to have your eyes open. The demographical studies are there to support my assertion about race. Bolivia (another country I've also visited) is an extreme example of the Latin American phenomenon of wealth resting with the whites. It's true in Venezuela too and you are just very ignorant about facts. You disagree with me about Chavez trying to do something about inequality - well now you're just being dogmatic. You seem to ignore my reservations about his character - it doesn't serve your purposes to have a balanced exchange. As for the success of his policies that's another issue. Perhaps you'd like to actually put the link to the BBC story you refer to. Oh and on Pilger - personally I never read his boring rants but surely he's just one of a number of people who write for the New Statesman - his polemics don't reflect editorial stances, do they? Or can you prove me wrong? And no it doesn't constitute a good argument to simply assert your view. Which, incidentally, is entirely and utterly wrong about the political history of Venezueza.

Cybertiger
10 January 2008 at 12:51

@Harry

Which country do you live in now? Once upon a time you lived in Venezuela; now it would appear you live on the other side of the world. I guess you've chosen a Muslim country with which to do your graphically intelligent design business. It won't be a communist country like North Korea because they wouldn't let folk like you in the door. I would be interested to know.

PS. There's a new Pilger article online today. I guess you'll want to comment. It's about the games the Yanks want to play in their sand pit.

Colonel Blimp
10 January 2008 at 13:11

It strikes me he's a very confused young man. Not fit even for canon fodder.

Robert Powell
10 January 2008 at 15:58

Oh he travels from country to country - Harry the bitter, reactionary, sex tourist.

angrywelshman
10 January 2008 at 16:19

Surely you mean cannon fodder, Colonel?

Colonel Blimp
10 January 2008 at 16:20

No I was thinking of the clergy.

Cybertiger
10 January 2008 at 16:51

"Harry the bitter, reactionary, sex tourist."

It's bedtime now in Harryland, the land of graphic (and intelligent) designers. Harry will be in bed, cuddling up to a cuddly Islamofascist.

PS. Beware the big cat .... under the bed ... waiting to bite Harry's butt ... in the morning.

igmo
10 January 2008 at 17:16

"What he was trying to do is make a communist country. That involves the people at the top having everything and the people at the bottom being slaves to the system, while everything in the middle is removed."

that sounds more like a description of whats happened in the states in the past thirty years

Harry
11 January 2008 at 08:03

A lot of posts here... Although I disagree with angrywelshman, he appears to be the only one actually intelligent enough to say anything political... Heres the artical he asked for about Venezuela:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6186990.stm

"But you don't actually know about Venezuela - if you've ever been there - you've failed to have your eyes open. The demographical studies are there to support my assertion about race."

I used to teach English there, and my father's side of the family is Venezuelan so I spent a lot of my youth there. If I failed to have my eyes open... Well, I have a feeling that Ive still seen more of it than you have. Am I wrong? Now onto this subject of race- Venezuela is not an andean country. It is not a case of Indians and blacks living in poverty with a small white upper class. Race is just not a big issue in Venezuela. Indeed, most of the population is quite mixed. If you have an article which prooves me wrong, Id like to read it, especially as you say you dont read any of pilger's drivel (relief...)

Cybertiger, Colonel Blimp and Robert Powell obviously arent bright enough to be involved in any kind of a debate here and dont seem to have much to say so Ill ignore them. Very intellectual calling me a sex tourist, by the way. *yawn*. And no, Cybertiger, there isnt a "big cat .... under the bed ... waiting to bite" Harry's butt ... in the morning." Oh my God what a bunch of brainless idiots!

...To answer your question, I live in Japan now as a graphic designer. Not that I see how its relevant. What a shame none of the three morons here are bright enough to articulate any kind of debate. Oh well.

angrywelshman
11 January 2008 at 13:05

Look, Harry you may have taught English there you may even have Venezuelan family but your claim to knowledge is in defiance of the facts. First of all the 'upper class' is predominately white. The majority of people are mestizo - mixture of races. Even Simon Bolivar suffered discrimination because of his mestizo status. Chavez is one of the first to really highlight the issue. Race may not be a big issue if you are on top of the pile - you may not even have to confront if you choose to close your eyes. On the BBC story, that doesn't prove anything about the effectiveness of the Chavez regime's policies in terms of its target - lifting up the slum-dwelling poor most of whom can claim 'indian' descent.

angrywelshman
11 January 2008 at 13:07

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2097076,00.html

Harry
12 January 2008 at 01:30

Is there any chance of sending an article by someone who isnt a Chavista? Try something even-handed, like the BBC. This is typical of the European left- justify closing down a private anti-chavez tv station by saying that it was a racist station run by whites. Dont you find something a little strange about that? You must agree that closing down a private tv channel without a very decent reason is a bad thing to do, right? Why was this writer so comfortable with it? Is the colour of the presenters a decent enough justification? Do you think that this writer wrote about this highly dubious act in an even-handed way? Its very easy to please the European left by mentioning race. But Chavez' aim is not to help blacks and indians. His aim is to make a communist state. When he mentions race (and he doesnt do it much- hes not Mugabe, and Venezuela is nothing like Zimbabwe.), the aim is just to make him sound like the voice of morality, which is the same way it is used in this article.

"The majority of people are mestizo - mixture of races."

I agree with this. Most Venezuelans are mixed. Its not rich whites vs poor blacks/indians.

"Even Simon Bolivar suffered discrimination because of his mestizo status."

And since then, Venezuela's population has grown massively and the people have mixed much more. Things have changed a lot in the last 200 years.

"Chavez is one of the first to really highlight the issue."

In spite of all that I have said above- that race is not a big issue in Venezuela, I would agree that you are more likely to be poor if you are black, as you are in the rest of the world. Its a minor issue- one minor enough that it can be solved in the way that we try to solve it in Europe- by giving universal education, positive discrimination in places (perhaps Chavez should introduce a rule based on that for the media?) and opportinities for all. It's not like Zimbabwe. A Zimbabwean wouldnt know what all the fuss was about. Its a minor issue, about as important as it is in Britain. Racism exists, and without taking reasonable steps, whites will be richer. There is a "race card" to play. But lets not kid ourselves here- its no justification for destroying the middle and business classes. Indeed, it's an easy card for Chavez supporters to use- but one that you shouldnt bother with. It sounds very noble and politically correct to the simplistic and uninformed left wing mind (Im sure it works for Cybertiger), but in reality, its a weak way to justify what's going on. Indeed, it isnt really related at all-this is a communist revolution-it needs to be justified in a different way.

"On the BBC story, that doesn't prove anything about the effectiveness of the Chavez regime's policies in terms of its target - lifting up the slum-dwelling poor most of whom can claim 'indian' descent."

But you see, it does suggest that instead lifting the poor to the status of "middle class", his policies are instead having the effect of making the middle class poorer, while creating an exceptionally wealthy political class. This is what communism does. You end up with the poor masses, and a very rich political elite. This is the worse choice- at least in a third world capitalist country the rich elite produce something. The rich now just need to have good friends. You know, I have a lot of friends who love Chavez. They tell me "This guy is crazy, but Im making so much money! I just have to make sure I turn it into dollars because eventually, this place will be finished!"

My father's family could have been classed "middle class". Not any more- they re leaving now, and taking their money with them.

Harry
12 January 2008 at 01:41

"may not be a big issue if you are on top of the pile - you may not even have to confront if you choose to close your eyes."

One last thing- I would love to know what experience you have of this country. If youre going to tell me that I had my eyes closed while I was there (and therefor only got information from friends or the media), I would love to know how you managed to get so much more information than me. Afterall, you cant have got all your information from the western media. Right?

Cybertiger
12 January 2008 at 11:53

They tell me "This guy is crazy, but Im making so much money! I just have to make sure I turn it into dollars because eventually, this place will be finished!"

The dollar is a busted flush. The US is finished - sold out to the communist Chinese - they would be crazy to turn their money in to dollars.

Harry
12 January 2008 at 12:45

Cybertiger, if youre not intelligent enough to know what we are talking about- do something else. Venezuelans like dollars because theyre easier to use in that part of the world. But that isnt the point- the point is that they dont want bolivares, or anything else inside venezuela because it's all worthless to them. But you dont know anything about the venezuelan currency, or economy, do you? Quit replying to detailed discussions with lame, half-hearted single sentence answers. Again, if youre not bright enough to follow the debate- do something else.

Cybertiger
12 January 2008 at 22:21

Harry, a little poser for you: Dubya thinks Chavez is a dolt and Chavez thinks Dubya's a dolt. They can't both be right - but then who is right?.

PS. Personally, I think Dubya's got the bigger banana - and that he's prepared to use it unilaterally ... is the clue to the little poser.

Harry
13 January 2008 at 00:39

Cybertiger, Im just going to ask you a little question. Please dont be offended, ok? Do you have learning difficulties? I mean- are you mentally handicapped? Please tell me if it is the case, because its not something to be ashamed of. Itll help us get to know each other.

Cybertiger
13 January 2008 at 09:38

@Harry

Stop blathering like an idiot and answer MY question. Who tosses the bigger banana in the lowland games between banana republics?

Harry
13 January 2008 at 10:41

Cybertiger, I need to know if you have learning difficulties. Please tell me just so that I know. Thanks.

Cybertiger
13 January 2008 at 12:59

It must be time for bed in the land of the setting sun. Goodnight Harry, sweet idiot dreams.

Harry
14 January 2008 at 00:38

Well, if you dont have learning difficulties, you sure are thick!!! It must be tough for you, Cybertiger. Heres what Im going to do- Im not going to reply to any more of your posts on this site, because you just arent intelligent enough- that includes your posts on other articles. I recommend you go elsewhere. Youre not welcome here. Youre too stupid. I wont check back for your moronic reply, idiot. Go back to cleaning asses and give up debating, you brain-dead bonehead.

Laurenceofberk
16 January 2008 at 03:05

Dear Harry,

I have just sent the following notice to the editor, under the heading of "incivility":

This kind of rank insult eliminates any further debate on the subject at hand. I wanted to talk about Chavez and Venezuela, but now it is impossible. If you want your discussion board to contain discussion which is intelligent, or even of relevant, you have got to eliminate this kind of ugliness.

Harry - you are an intelligent man, and you have a lot of experience and information. But all of your good qualities seem to be overwhelmed by an uncontrollable drive toward combat and insult. All of us who venture into the political arena, no matter what our opinions, need to examine our motivations and improve our communication skills in order to be effective. I wish you good luck, but in the mean time, please try to stray from the topic in an overly emotional manner.

Sincerely yours, Laurence of Berkeley

Sofia from Venezuela
23 January 2008 at 18:01

No one of you are from Venez?

So don't write that much s.... from your soft and confortable couch...

I rather your capitalist dictatorship than this stupid ans useless venezuelan "so called socialism"

People get a life!

GrandeGunz
29 January 2008 at 13:21

Harry,

Indeed you seem to be more well informed than most of the mental midgets (Cybertiger, Angrywelshman, Robert Powell) on this blog. My own personal experience with Venezuela (my wife is from Venezuela and I have visited many times) much parallels what you have written. Chavez seems to be taking the "petro dollars" and spending them on things that I doubt will help the country in the long run (i.e. Loans/Giveaways to the surrounding countries, purchasing arms from Russia, trading oil for Cuban Doctors) instead of actually spending the money building infrastruture and creating jobs and opportunities in a country desperately needing help. The way things are going, he will have Venezuela in civil war or worse very soon. It amazes me the way some of these people actually think that Chavez is doing good when the whole world is falling down around him. Oh well...maybe change will take place sooner or later, but it will probably be at the expense of the Venezolano people. Take care...

Flyer
05 February 2008 at 19:24

Dios mio... I have just skimmed through the stinky fetid cesspit that this forum has been reduced to. I am speechless. What has been proved here? Who won? Who made the most convincing arguments?

It's pretty clear that when things degenerate to this base level, all involved come out looking profoundly foolish. New Statesman, you should be vetting your forums more effectively! There has to be some degree of control on freedom of speech: absolute freedom = anarchy. And who ever had an interesting conversation with an anarchist? (sorry I'm just baiting people now..!)

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