Time to recognise the Armenian genocide

66 comments from readers

Stephen
12 October 2007 at 18:28

It is incredible that Turkey can be trumpeted as a member of the EU and not have to recognise its past. The UK recently did so on Slavery. Germany has admitted the Jewish holocaust. Turkey surely can recognise its past as well? These admissions are good for all concerned. I would feel a lot happier about Turkey in the EU if the rampant nationalism was reined in with some humility about Turkey's past.

baristarim
12 October 2007 at 18:42

A prime example of a one-sided interpretation of history which overlooks the immense suffering and death toll suffered by the Turks, Kurds and Muslims during World War I.

And the attempt to portray Armenia as a benevolent nation is absolutely preposterous: The border between Turkey and Armenia is closed because Armenia declared war on neighboring Azerbaijan, occupied 20 percent of its territory, expelled nearly a million Azeris which also involved downright massacres like the one in Khodajly and continues to occupy it to this day.

Just like it did during the World War I. But because Turks, Kurds and Azeris are Muslims, their suffering doesn't matter now, does it Mr. Ambassador?

What hypocrisy. Maybe Armenia should also reach out to Turks and Azeris and ask them why they get so offended by such one-sided attempts to interpret history - it is because they have also suffered immensely!

If Armenia is so interested in peace, it should withdraw from occupied Azeri territory and apologize for its wrongdoings vis-à-vis the Turks and Azeris (who are also Turkic, by the way).

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
12 October 2007 at 19:33

I would like to mention one thing. When Turkey says "many Turks were killed in WWI too" what in the world does that have to do with the the systematic deportation of Armenian civilians - women, children, the elderly out of their homes and to the Syrian desert to be left there to die from starvation, heat, diseases, etc.?!!! These events are NOT EVEN on the same boat! Since when do we fight wars with sending one group of population of a specific ethnicity, religion, etc. to the desert, rape and murder many on the way, and whoever got that far, leave them there to die. If that is your definition of fighting a "war", then I'm afraid I can't call you a human. It's time for Turkey to come to terms with its past and recognize the events of 1915-23 as genocide. If you're scared of your image, know that your denial campaign is hurting your image much more!

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
12 October 2007 at 19:35

I would like to mention one thing. When Turkey says "many Turks were killed in WWI too" what in the world does that have to do with the systematic deportation of Armenian civilians - women, children, the elderly out of their homes and to the Syrian desert to be left there to die from starvation, heat, diseases, etc.?!!! These events are NOT EVEN on the same boat! Since when do we fight wars with sending one group of population of a specific ethnicity, religion, etc. to the desert, rape and murder many on the way, and whoever got that far, leave them there to die. If that is your definition of fighting a "war", then I'm afraid I can't call you a human. It's time for Turkey to come to terms with its past and recognize the events of 1915-23 as genocide. If you're scared of your image, know that your denial campaign is hurting your image much much more!!

beta
12 October 2007 at 19:37

The previous comment by the reader shows why the world is so worried about muslim fanaticism.

Turks (and some muslims) are unable or unwilling to admit fault in any circumstance. In the case of the Armenian Genocide the evidence is as clear as the Jewish Holocaust...oh wait, according to some in the muslim world...that never happened either. Is there no end to your ludicrous denial of history.

Abidin
12 October 2007 at 19:41

You have forgot to mention a small detail in your article! hundreds of thosusands of Turks who got killed by Armenians which started to whole thing in the first place. What about them ?

mher
12 October 2007 at 19:52

To Baristarim's comment.

It does not matter you are muslim or not, it matters that if we deny the past crimes sach as THE ARMENIAN GENOCIDE we are risking to see it happen again.

And the war with Azerbaijan is started by Azeris not by Armenians, it started just like Ottoman Turks started to deport Armenians and kill them. But this time it did not end like that.

baristarim
12 October 2007 at 19:53

About my previous post:

Enough with demagogues - I am an ATHEIST, not a Muslim. Trying to put people who say that the West is blatantly overlooking the suffering of Turks, Kurds and Muslims, many of them who were also killed by Armenian gangs, French Armenian Legion, Russian Armenian Legion into to the boat of Muslim fanatics is preposterous.

West is clearly overlooking and failing to empathize with the suffering of anyone who is not Christian, and I, as an atheist, can see that - it has nothing to do with Muslim fanaticism.

And the argument that even though deaths occured, the destruction prevailed on everyone involved all throughout the war in a complex web of ethnic strife is a very legitimate one, no matter what demagogues might say.

baristarim
12 October 2007 at 20:07

To mher's post:

Yes, it doesn't matter what religion you are from - that's exactly what I am saying.

And yes, it didn't end like that in Azerbaijan - it ended up with a million Azeris being expelled and many downright butchered in places like Khodajly.

Maybe if Armenia wasn't crying scandal at those bad ol' Turks while driving a million of them away from their homes and butchering them along the way as recently as ten years ago, Armenia might be truly considered to be chasing historic "justice". But that's all a smokescreen - one that considers Muslims as not worthy of sympathy for anything since they are simply objects to be "gotten back at" (?)

It is no secret that many Armenians regularly look down upon Muslims, as do many Christian nations who have lived right next to them for centuries. Bosnia and Albania is a case in point. I don't see Armenia making a fuss about Bosnia, Albania or the plight of Azeri refugees. That's hypocrisy my friend, no matter which way you look at it. Which proves another very important POINT: this is about politics, not historic justice. Turks do not deny in any way that Armenians suffered, or that many of them have been killed. But a bit more compassion (at some point) vice versa would also go a long way. Driving a million Azeris from their homes is not the way to do it - that's all I am saying.

seralin
12 October 2007 at 20:09

Stephen,

Do you remember Netherlands, Belgium, France, Spain, and others accepting their guilts regarding the genocide crimes or other types of massacres they had performed on millions of Arabs, Africans, Indians, and many others over a very long period? I don't think so. And, last I checked, those were members of EU. So, please, keep your distorted facts to yourselves! Not every people in the world are so ignorant to what your countries had done in the past.

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
12 October 2007 at 20:15

baristarim, since you insist on talking about khojaly.. let begin by Sumgait pogrom.. the event that lead to khojaly shall we? "like a cause and effect analysis". It was when as an Azeri-led pogrom that targeted the Armenian population of the seaside town of Sumgait in Soviet Azerbaijan during February 1988. On February 27, 1988, large mobs made up of ethnic Azeris formed into groups that went on to attack and kill Armenians in both on the streets and in their apartments; widespread looting and a general lack of concern from police officers allowed the situation to worsen. It is estimated that over 200 Armenians were killed. SOOOO why would you skip this event and bring up Khojaly? Yes, Mher is right. Even before the Karabagh war, over 90% of the population of Karabagh was Armenian, and by the way they were being treated, another genocide was only steps away. This time the Armenians didn't let it happen. They had no choice, they had to step in or else the Ottoman Empire events would repeat itself, this time in Azerbaijan.

Ed
12 October 2007 at 20:21

Britain has traditionally taken a very responsible position on this dispute, not pandering to either side but instead basing their position on the facts.

As the authority that held a war crimes investigation they are well placed to do so.

"The British Government had condemned the massacres at the time. But in the absence of unequivocal evidence that the Ottoman administration took a specific decision to eliminate the Armenians under their control at that time, British governments have not recognized those events as indications of genocide... Nor do we believe it is the business of governments of today to review events of over 80 years ago, with a view to pronouncing on them".

A somewhat more honest position than, for examples sake, France takes. But then France has the largest Armenian population in Europe, which is what these resolutions are really about.

As French historian Nora said "The French parliament is being held captive by Armenian pressure groups."

He also called the prosecution of Bernard Lewis a "scandal".

You see, while they tell you that this is an indisputable historical facting - they are prosecuting historians for disputing it.

And not just any historian, but one described as the Encyclopedia of History and Historians as the most distinguished in this field.

"There is no evidence of a decision to massacre. On the contrary, there is considerable evidence of attempt to prevent it, which were not very successful."

In case you are wondering what the leading French historian on this issue thinks, Gilles Veinstein, whose appointment to the College de France affirms him as the leading authority says:

"It is necessary nevertheless to admit that one does not so far have proof of this governmental implication. The documents produced by the Armenians, on the order of Talaat Pasha, Minister of the Interior, and of other official top ottomans explicitly ordering the slaughters of men, women, and Armenian children, designated as the "Andonian documents," after the name of their editor, were only forgeries."

Getting back to the British position - Norman Stone, former Oxford historian and advisor to the Thatcher government agrees too.

"The very first thing to be said is that the business of ‘genocide’ has never been proved. The evidence for it is at best indirect and when the British were in occupation of Istanbul they never found any direct evidence or proof at all. They kept some hundred or so prominent Turks in captivity on Malta, hoping to find some sort of evidence against them, and failed. They asked the Americans if they knew anything and were told, no."

JusticeWIllPrevail, if you do not think that the Armenians militias were guilty of all those crimes while massacring villages, towns and cities, I suggest you read The Armenian Rebellion at Van - or even the memoirs of their Russian commanders who were appalled by their excesses.

Armenians suffered an atrocity - tell the truth about it and progress can be made. Trying to force a square peg into a round hole by holding this alongside the Holocaust makes it impossible for Turkey to agree because too many historians have already pointed out the absurdness of that comparison.

The Ottoman archives are open, an offer for a historical committee is on the table - Turkey says it will abide by the outcome. The Armenian archives are closed and refuse any such committee. Which side wants genuine historical resolution and which just wants politicians to just make their version the official one with no critical analysis.

levaa
12 October 2007 at 20:31

I am an Armenian born and raised in Baku, Azerbaidjan. I live in US now. We wore kicked out of our homes in the period of armenian-azeri conflict. It is clear that armenians wore trying to take back what was theirs, in that case Nagorniy Karabah. And if it wasup to me I would take Ararat back too or Turks should give it back. As to the comments about .Armenian Legions and killing turks. that was after1918. So lets not forget what happend and remember the stories our grandparent told us about people like Andronik Pasha.

Ed
12 October 2007 at 20:33

Actually, Stephen - Britain has a catalogue of mass death on its hands in various colonies that are just left to the past. The victims presumably do not have the campaign resources of the Armenians to matter as much.

Germany too, for that matter. Nuremburg produced reams of evidence and they accepted a contemporary legal finding, not a historical judgement. They are far from acknowledging the excesses of their past - ask the Herero people if they have received a formal apology for the real first 'genocide' of the 20th century, in 1904.

Current news:

"The German government has expressed “regret” at the actions of their country but have avoided a specific apology for their crimes stating that a formal apology would leave them open to claims for reparations. In 1998, Germany’s unrepentant President, Roman Herzog visited Namibia and rejected claims for reparation on the grounds that the there was no legislation to the protect “rebels” and the civilian population at the time of the conflict."

This notion that the West is this grown up place where nations hold their hands up to previous wrongs is a myth based on the Jewish Holocaust, which I repeat was the acceptance of a contemporary court ruling, not a historical judgement - is a false one.

levaa
12 October 2007 at 20:34

By the way US is very close to recognise Armenian gen. I just cant belive that only thing thats been stoping them is Turkish air space.

baristarim
12 October 2007 at 20:39

justicewillprevail, I am not trying to engage in a pissing contest, I am only saying that compassion should go both ways (or all around). It is not very rich of Armenians to simply say "recognize this as that" and then try to portray every Turk and Azeri as bloodthirsty butchers.

In any case, what you have just described sounds eerily like the escalation of an inter-ethnic strife followed by armed conflict which has happened in many places around the world.

It is the same thing that happened in 1915. Escalation in tensions led to inter-ethnic strife, armed conflict and Ottoman's decision to deport the Armenians during the World War. That is barely a cold-blooded state-organized genocide to anhilate a race. Just as is in the Balkans or Middle East, turning a blind eye to the suffering of "the other" and pretend that there is some horse-trading going on is no way to look to the future.

I truly sympathize with the suffering of the immense suffering of the Armenians, but I also do with Azeris, Turks, Kurds and Greeks who suffered in World War I. However, practically every single time I come across any Armenian group or declaration by Armenia, I can distinctly smell a strong whiff of orientalism and superiority because Armenia is the first Christian nation on Earth and so on.

In any case, some people should take a leaf out of Hrant Dink's book: He was against the internationalization and politicatization of this because he knew it served nothing. What? Reconciliation is going to come by people from California or Kansas debate it in a committee of the US Congress? As far as I am concerned it only serves to address the identity issues of the Armenian diaspora...

levaa
12 October 2007 at 20:46

baristarim, so you personaly deny Armenian Genocide?

beta
12 October 2007 at 21:11

Baristarim..

There is no excuse for mass murder and genocide of over 1.5 million people...The Nazis had similar excuses when they were sending people to the gas chamber.

Socrates
12 October 2007 at 22:22

"The Ottoman archives are open, an offer for a historical committee is on the table - Turkey says it will abide by the outcome. "

The European Parliament, the French Parliament and now the US Foreign Affairs Committee have read all the archives and evidence they need to see, and have made their decisions.

If Turkey is not abiding by the decisons of these collective bodies, why should it abide by the decison of a 'historical committee' of scholars?

Turkey is the only country in the world which continues to deny the Armenian genocide - even the Iranian president Mr A-Mad-Jihad does not stoop so low to deny this historical fact.

It might make more sense if Turkey changed its name to Ostrich because really it is being laughed at and pitied (the current politicians - not the Turkish people).

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
12 October 2007 at 23:27

To barit's comment on "compassion should go both ways". We aren't discussing people who died in WWI here. This has nothing to do with WWI casualties. Turkey was engaged in war, obbbbviously it's gonna suffer casualties. What do you mean? We are discussing the ethnic cleansing of the Armeian population from Ottoman Empire. I don't see any relations here. None, whatsoever.

Below is what the International Association of Genocide Scholars had to say about this:

INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS

President

Israel Charny (Israel)

First Vice-President

Gregory H. Stanton (USA)

Second Vice-President

Linda Melvern (UK)

Secretary-Treasurer

Steven Jacobs (USA)

June 13, 2005

Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan

TC Easbakanlik

Bakanlikir

Ankara, Turkey

FAX: 90 312 417 0476

Dear Prime Minister Erdogan:

We are writing you this open letter in response to your call for an “impartial study by historians” concerning the fate of the Armenian people in the Ottoman Empire during World War I.

We represent the major body of scholars who study genocide in North America and Europe. We are concerned that in calling for an impartial study of the Armenian Genocide you may not be fully aware of the extent of the scholarly and intellectual record on the Armenian Genocide and how this event conforms to the definition of the United Nations Genocide Convention. We want to underscore that it is not just Armenians who are affirming the Armenian Genocide but it is the overwhelming opinion of scholars who study genocide: hundreds of independent scholars, who have no affiliations with governments, and whose work spans many countries and nationalities and the course of decades. The scholarly evidence reveals the following:

On April 24, 1915, under cover of World War I, the Young Turk government of the Ottoman Empire began a systematic genocide of its Armenian citizens – an unarmed Christian minority population. More than a million Armenians were exterminated through direct killing, starvation, torture, and forced death marches. The rest of the Armenian population fled into permanent exile. Thus an ancient civilization was expunged from its homeland of 2,500 years.

The Armenian Genocide was the most well-known human rights issue of its time and was reported regularly in newspapers across the United States and Europe. The Armenian Genocide is abundantly documented by thousands of official records of the United States and nations around the world including Turkey’s wartime allies Germany, Austria and Hungary, by Ottoman court-martial records, by eyewitness accounts of missionaries and diplomats, by the testimony of survivors, and by decades of historical scholarship.

The Armenian Genocide is corroborated by the international scholarly, legal, and human rights community:

1) Polish jurist Raphael Lemkin, when he coined the term genocide in 1944, cited the Turkish extermination of the Armenians and the Nazi extermination of the Jews as defining examples of what he meant by genocide.

2) The killings of the Armenians is genocide as defined by the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide.

3) In 1997 the International Association of Genocide Scholars, an organization of the world’s foremost experts on genocide, unanimously passed a formal resolution affirming the Armenian Genocide.

4) 126 leading scholars of the Holocaust including Elie Wiesel and Yehuda Bauer placed a statement in the New York Times in June 2000 declaring the “incontestable fact of the Armenian Genocide” and urging western democracies to acknowledge it.

5) The Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide (Jerusalem), and the Institute for the Study of Genocide (NYC) have affirmed the historical fact of the Armenian Genocide.

6) Leading texts in the international law of genocide such as William A. Schabas’s Genocide in International Law (Cambridge University Press, 2000) cite the Armenian Genocide as a precursor to the Holocaust and as a precedent for the law on crimes against humanity.

We note that there may be differing interpretations of genocide—how and why the Armenian Genocide happened, but to deny its factual and moral reality as genocide is not to engage in scholarship but in propaganda and efforts to absolve the perpetrator, blame the victims, and erase the ethical meaning of this history.

We would also note that scholars who advise your government and who are affiliated in other ways with your state-controlled institutions are not impartial. Such so-called “scholars” work to serve the agenda of historical and moral obfuscation when they advise you and the Turkish Parliament on how to deny the Armenian Genocide. In preventing a conference on the Armenian Genocide from taking place at Bogacizi University in Istanbul on May 25, your government revealed its aversion to academic and intellectual freedom—a fundamental condition of democratic society.

We believe that it is clearly in the interest of the Turkish people and their future as a proud and equal participants in international, democratic discourse to acknowledge the responsibility of a previous government for the genocide of the Armenian people, just as the German government and people have done in the case of the Holocaust.

Approved Unanimously at the Sixth biennial meeting of

THE INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF GENOCIDE SCHOLARS (IAGS)

June 7, 2005, Boca Raton, Florida

Contacts: Israel Charny, IAGS President; Executive Director, Institute on the Holocaust and Genocide, Jerusalem, Editor-in-Chief, Encyclopedia of Genocide, 972-2-672-0424; encygeno@mail.com

Gregory H. Stanton, IAGS Vice President; President, Genocide Watch, James Farmer Visiting Professor of Human Rights, University of Mary Washington; 703-448-0222; genocidewatch@aol.com

Martin
13 October 2007 at 02:59

Unfortunately, modern Turks cannot be taken seriously when they argue about the past of their country – be it the genocides of Armenians, Greeks and Assyrians in 1890-1924, the treatment of Kurds or the history of the Seljuk emirates of the medieval times. That is why Turkish comments here or elsewhere do no matter. Like the Soviet Union, Turkey is a state that imposes a fabricated reading of its history upon its citizens, and penalizes those who dare to display difference of opinion (e.g. through the infamous article 301 of the penal code). Because of the Cold War where Turks were on the side of the West (“an important ally”), the West developed an unnaturally hypocritical attitude toward Turkey, which allowed the Turks not to change their illiberal ways and yet be considered a member of the Western camp. To this day, Turkey remains immensely illiberal and absurdly racist. The increasingly important Muslim identity of the Turks also plays a role. According to the Koran and its medieval interpreters, non-Muslims are people without souls who are immune to the acquisition of true knowledge of any kind. Hence, the Turkish argument that Christians are liars who deserve nothing but punishment when they disagree with Muslims.

durmaz
13 October 2007 at 06:31

Martin,

I read your comment "According to the Koran and its medieval interpreters, non-Muslims are people without souls who are immune to the acquisition of true knowledge of any kind"

I don't think you can base this comment on any reliable source. It is non-sense.

jmarkar
13 October 2007 at 09:40

To the one who made the Orientalist comment, if it is just about the communally ethnic Christianity of Armenians ( many, many were also secular at the time) why are there huge Armenian diasporas in largely Muslim populated countries and regions, such as Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, the Armenian Quarter in Palestine and Iran as well as Baghdad? Why did non-Turkish ethnically Muslim peoples such as (especially) Arabs take-in Armenian refugees or take part in saving them ? Why was there a fatwa issued from Mecca that derided the Armenian genocide at that time, urging all Muslims of note to not take part? Why did the grand Mufti of Palestine agitate on behalf on the Armenian refugees for their asylum into the area?

If anything, Armenian genocide is a case *against* orientalism and racism , on account of Armenians both having good relations with Persians and Arabs ( for far long exceeding the genocide, ..centuries..and including up to the present , including getting along during the disasterous Lebanese civil war) as well as Christians from the West; in addition to working with Jewish people with humanitarian inclinations ( Morgenthau, etc).

One of the main influences was Pan-Turanism and difference or the stubborn non-assimilation on part of the Armenians. Not to mention the notion of that he composition of a nation-state must homogenously reflect the ethnonational composition on the ground" re Germnay for ethnic Germans, Poland for ethnic Poles only, Israel for ethnic Jews , etc. It was Turkey for the Turks, and if it were not so on the ground, then they darn sure tried to make it as such.

Religion was a tool and not the root. Seculars and religous types massacred Armenians whether they (Armenians) were practicing Christians or anti-clerical or secularists . Also, the order of mercy for conversion was rescinded during the genocide, proving the ethnic-supremacist motive.

The same Pan-Turanist-minded Turks also attempted afterwards to forcibly Turkify ,but not annihilate, Kurds , Arabs and also Alevis through moving populations and banning language uses: all to make a uniform, docile, homogenous "Turk" ideal -type citizen. Armenians ( and Assyrians and Pontics) were a huge problem in that they were unassimilable to Turkification. Not to mention that Armenians were the indigenous inhabitants of the region now known as eastern Turkey prior to the arrival of Turks in the era of post 1100's. Armenians had been living in the area at the most modest estimate for at least four thousand , five hundred years. So, yeah: they must have figured that if we have not forcibly assimilated them yet, then utter annihiliation, genocide, is the "answer" to the Armenian " problem".

So do not play the dubious and false line, Mr. B., that it is on account of the communal ethnic religion of Armenians that is gaining recognition in the Us where elsewhere , such as parts of the Arab world, it is just common sense and an accepted part of history and oral history traditons ( especially amongst Bedouins, where so many have come forward over the years recounting their or their families encounters with Armenian refugees, or revealing that they had a grandparent of Armenian origin who was a refugee of the genocide). It is on account of the hard work of Armenianshat it is *finally* getting recognition as it is in other places such as Canada, France, Lebanon, and many other countries around the world.

Sutapas
13 October 2007 at 11:37

I am glad to see that some of you have pointed out the long list of crimes against humanity perpretated by the British and other Europeans such as the extermination of the Tasmanians. As someone has noted, most victims of such crimes are not as well-organised and wealthy enough to get international acknowledgement of such crimes. My father and relatives remember with horror the starving refugees fleeing the British-inflicted artificial famine holocaust in Bengal in 1942-3 which killed 3 million mainly Muslim Bengalis. The British have deliberately tried to suppress public knowledge about this and other similar famine holocausts created by British Social Darwinist and "let-the-poor-starve" policies in India including the 19 million dead in Western India during the 1890s, 8 million in S. India during the 1870s and the Great Bengal Famine of 1770, largely the result of British policies. The 1997 Channel 4 programme The Forgotten Famine showed how the British had suppressed news about the 1942-43 famine deliberately reducing death tolls to a tiny fraction of the true figures etc. British historian Niall Ferguson in 2001 even repeated Kipling's myths under the heading of The White Man's Burden in the Daily Mail that heroic Britsihers were saving starving natives! I have posted information about these artificial famine holocausts on C4's Empires Children website at;

http://channel4.empireschildren.co.uk/category/chapters/inde...

Mehmet Baysan
13 October 2007 at 15:53

In the First World War, the Armenians revolted against Ottoman Empire and start forming terrorist groups and killing Muslim Turks and Kurds in Eastern Turkey. The Armenians started the violence. What about ongoing invasion of 20 percent of Azeri territory by Armenians? Deportation of one million Azeri Muslims from their land. The Western countries ignore the killing of Muslims in Palestine , Lebanon and bloody genocide of 2 million Algerians by the French colonialists. It is hypocracy to ignore killing of Muslims and talking about so-called Armenian genocide.

vanarmenya
13 October 2007 at 16:08

Turks are pathetic for being denialists. It is described at www.zoryaninstitute.org "If nations are allowed to commit genocide with impunity, to hide their guilt in a camouflage of lies and denials, there is a real danger that other brutal regimes will be encouraged to attempt genocides. Unless we speak today of the Armenian genocide and unless the Government recognises this historical fact, we shall leave this century of unprecedented genocides with this blot on our consciences."

-- Caroline, Baroness Cox, House of Lords, April 1999

"The Turkish denial [of the Armenian Genocide] is probably the foremost example of historical perversion. With a mix of academic sophistication and diplomatic thuggery -- of which we at Macquarie University have been targets -- the Turks have put both memory and history into reverse gear."

-- Prof. Colin Tatz, Director,

Centre for Comparative Genocide Studies

(Centre for Genocide Studies Newsletter,

(December 1995-January 1996))

"The nearest successful example [of collective denial] in the modern era is the 80 years of official denial by successive Turkish governments of the 1915-17 genocide against the Armenians in which 1.5 million people lost their lives. This denial has been sustained by deliberate propaganda, lying and coverups, forging documents, suppression of archives, and bribing scholars."

-- Stanley Cohen, Professor of Criminology,

Hebrew University, Jerusalem

(Law and Social Inquiry vol. 20, no. 1 (Winter 1995): 7, 50)

vanarmenya
13 October 2007 at 16:14

In Khojaly, the retreating Azeri army hid among civilians who the Armenians wer allowing to peacefully retreat from the town--and the Azeris fired upon Armenian positions. Armenians waited but soon had to return fire and hit and killed civilians. The Azeri army is certainly partly to blame. Now take this and compre it to what happened to elderly Armenians gang-raped and set aflame by azeris in SUmgait and Baku, and you add the 4-5 million Christians of 1890 who "disappeared" and became 0.01% of modern Turkey and you see the enormity of the Genocide and the sneakiness of the above Turkish distortions and falsifications.

vanarmenya
13 October 2007 at 16:16

http://youtube.com/watch?v=jLmkoj-zSs8

I just finished crying after seeing that video above.

Does anyone else think that Sumgait didnt get the appropriate recognition within the Armenian Diaspora? In case you dont know what I mean by Sumgait:

The vigorous but mainly peaceful political activity in Karabakh and Yerevan was accompanied by a resumption of killings. On February 27, fanatical Azeri-Turks went on a three day rampage in Sumgait, a new industrial town 20 miles from Baku, murdering members of the town's large Armenian minority and destroying their property. According to the official Soviet account 32 died, but eyewitness reports strongly suggest the true figure runs into the hundreds. Marina Pogosyan, a young survivor of the Sumgait massacre, testified:

"On the twenty-sixth, a Friday, a friend of mine warned me to stay inside over the weekend. Still, I went to work - I taught in a nursery schood - and walked home at noon. That afternoon, there was another Azerbaijani rally, in downtown Sumgait, and then crowds of people went through the shopping area where Armenians worked, and broke windows and smashed things. I heard cries of 'Death to Armenians! Blood for blood!' It was mostly young people, and the police didn't stop thepn. Late that night, after we had gone to bed, we heard yelling on the street, and through the window I saw thousands of people in a mob marching through the street, most dressed in black, carrying clubs and Turkish flags with the half-moon. They were yelling, 'Get out! Armenians are killing our people and you're sitting here! We must purge our city! The next day, we went to a neighbor's in the building for. her birthday party. We talked about what we had seen, but we thought it was just young hooligans, fhen a neighbor boy came in, looking pale. We asked him what was happening, and he said: 'You don't know? They're killing and burning people out there, breaking into people's apartments.' We called the police, and they said: 'Stay where you are. You're not the only ones. We can't help you.' A Russian neighbor came to us and invited us to wait in her apartment. There were about three families with her - fifteen people. We spent the whole night there. The mob came and knocked on our door, and she went outside and told them that we were not there - that we'd moved a week ago. A few times after that, they passed by and broke into neighbors' apartments. By that time, no Armenians were home. So there were no killings (in her building-ed.), but there was a lot of destruction. They threw the chairs and the dishes out of the window. I had absolutely no hope that we'd survive. I figured they'd kill us all sooner or later. The mob came again, but on Monday soldiers came in tanks and took us to the Party committee building." (Cullen, 1991, pp. 66-7)

Marina Pogosyan and her family were allowed to collect money and a few possessions before being flown to Yerevan. Most of Sumgait's Armenian community survived the attacks. Many, like Miss Pogosyan, were sheltered by brave Russian and Azeri-Turk neighbours. But the fate of those who fell into the hands of the mob was cruel. Lola Avakyan, a 37-year-old Armenian resident of Sumgait was one of the unfortunate. Seized by an Azeri-Turk crowd, she was stripped and forced to dance before having her breasts slashed and body burned with cigarettes. She was raped and then killed. Several AzeriTurks were arrested and convicted for their involvement in the mayhem.

Sumgait postscript: On March 2, 1993, the Office of Azerbaijani Procurator announced that it had recommended that President Eichibey grant an amnesty to those convicted of violent offenses against Armenians during the Sumgait pogrom. The Procurator's Office reported that it expected the President to act according to its recommendation. On the same day, a proposal for the amnesty to be announced on May 28, 1993 - the 74th anniversary of the founding of the first Republic of Azerbaijan - was made in Azerbaijani parliament.

***My family is from Baku, and had to run because the same thing was starting to happen there. I have heard accounts from other Bakvahyes about how babies were being thrown against walls. :crying: Hundreds of people were killed. (in Sumgait and Baku both) Many more lost their homes and jobs because they had to run for their lives. Many lost contact with family and friends.

I just finished crying after seeing that video above.

Abdullah
13 October 2007 at 16:22

What about mass murder of 300.000 Muslim Chechens and carpet-bombing of Chechen cities by the Russian army? What about killing, rape and torture of innocent İraqi and Afghan people by Americans an their Western allies? What about killing of Palestinians and Lebanese Muslims by Lebanese Christians in refugee camps like Sabra and Shatilla and Israel? Why do you ignore these crimes and don't recognize them? You are bloody liars and hypocrites nothing else. All you want is Christian supremacy over the Muslim World and world domination.

Ruzanna
13 October 2007 at 16:26

All the Genocides and Mass Murders have killed more people than All the Wars combined in the 20th Century (1 million Ibos, 1.5 million Armenians, 1.5 million Bengalis, 1.7 million Cambodians, 2 million Sudanese, 2 million North Koreans , 3 million Ukrainians, 6 million Jews, 6 million Slavs)-Who Let The Dogs Out?

The expulsion and massacre of millions of Armenians was the first Genocide of the 20th Century. Turks demolished any Remembrance of Armenian Cultural Heritage including Masterpieces of Ancient Architecture and Old Libraries-This is The Fact.

First of all, there can be no peace if people do not accept each other for what they are.

Obviously, Islam has taken a xenophobic approach to religion over the centuries. Muslims have mandate to proselytise. Being considerate does not have it’s place in their mission. The provocative statement ‘’Non-Muslims are people without souls’’ and it’s Mutated forms in their ongoing actions confirms this.

Well, is this the same soul they had while turkifying the neighbourhood nation? Or, is this so-called halal or humane? Have Christians ever referred to ‘HM The Soul’, let alone proselytise Muslims. As for Jews , there is no commandment to convert non-Jews to Judaism at all.

Maybe these are rhetoric questions, but the Fact is that the atrocity was committed largely down to above mentioned prejudice.

All in all, though, not having decency to admit The Armenian Genocide is insult on turkishness.

As long as the human brain is capable of abstract reasoning and introspection, the Tit For Tat strategy will be pursued.

Abdullah
13 October 2007 at 16:33

Ruzanna why do you ignore the suffering and killing of Muslim nations such as Bosnians, Chechens, Algerians, Palestinians, Turkish cypriots and other Muslim people. Why do you ignore the suffering of Muslims under Christian nations?

Ruzanna
13 October 2007 at 18:21

To Abdullah

Please, read the title of the article.

By the way,

There's A Time For Everyone

If They Only Know

That The Twisted Kaleidoscope

Moves Us All In Turn.

That's All

It's Our Turn.

TurkeyTheBrainwashedNarion
13 October 2007 at 23:26

Why has this turned into a religion war? MANY MUSLIM ARABS HELPED THE ARMENIANS DURING THE GENOCIDE. This has nothing to do with religion. It's about humanity. It's about justice. NOT religion.

Alex_Seattle
13 October 2007 at 23:58

First of all I like to point out that my feelings about the Armenian Genocide have nothing to do with any religious or territorial disputes. I am also an Armenian refugee from Baku, but I don't want to get into the finger pointing disputes of who started what. That method has never solved anything yet. The issue that I have with the Genocide is one of historical value mostly. I have read numerous articles where various Turkish scolars were fired from their positions and even their families were blackmailed, simply because they couldn't ignore the vast amount of historical data of the events 1915-1923.

There is plenty of fiction in the historical recollections of our ancestors, but this particular event is so well documented and even photographed that even most skillful acts of denial cannot humanly ignore this amount of data. The scary fact is that the Armenian Genocide by the Ottoman Turks has inspired Adolf Hitler to do his dispicable version of the massacre against the Jewish in Germany. Is this the kind of inspiration that Turkey would like to bring to the world? What's totally rediculous though, is that not only Turkey doesn't want to recognize the Genocide, but it's also putting tremendous pressure on the nations that can no longer ignore this issue like the USA. It is clear that there are many Turkish people that are as appalled by this issue as I am, but the actions of their goverment show that they haven't progressed far from the nationalistic Islamic state they were 90 years ago.

Alex_Seattle
14 October 2007 at 00:15

Here is some of the supportive data for my previous post.

By "Independant's" Robert Fisk:

Taner Akcam, a prominent – and extremely brave – Turkish scholar who has visited the Yerevan museum, has used original Ottoman Turkish documents to authenticate the act of genocide. Now under fierce attack for doing so from his own government, he discovered in Turkish archives that individual Turkish officers often wrote “doubles” of their mass death-sentence orders, telegrams sent at precisely the same time that asked their subordinates to ensure there was sufficient protection and food for the Armenians during their “resettlement”. This weirdly parallels the bureaucracy of Nazi Germany, where officials were dispatching hundreds of thousands of Jews to the gas chambers while assuring International Red Cross officials in Geneva that they were being well cared for and well fed.

Pierre Montreal
14 October 2007 at 06:01

The best informed person on earth regarding Armenian Azeri issue is Baroness Caroline Cox.

In a letter to the Editor of The Independent on August 30 2007 she wrote:

” I must challenge the grossly inaccurate analogy between the

Armenian genocide and the recent war in the predominantly Armenian enclave

of Nagorno Karabakh. The Armenians were not the aggressors: Azerbaijan

initiated a self-avowed policy, 'Operation Ring', of ethnic cleansing of

the Armenians who live in this historically Armenian enclave, given by

Stalin to Azerbaijan.”

She goes on to say:

”I have visited the region 63 times since Azerbaijan carried out massacres

of Armenians in Baku and Sumgait in the late 1980s and then unleashed

full-scale war against the 150,000 civilians in the enclave. In July 1991,

I visited Azerbaijan, with an international group of independent human

rights experts, to ascertain the Azeri viewpoint. We were left in no doubt

of their policy of intended ethnic cleansing of all Armenians from

Karabakh - a policy subsequently publicly affirmed by successive Azeri

Presidents and senior politicians.”

“ I was in Karabakh virtually every month during the height of the war; I counted 400 'Grad' missiles a day fired by Azeris on the capital city, Stepanakert; I witnessed aerial bombardment and the use of cluster bombs on civilian targets and massacres of indescribable brutality - documented irrefutably in our publication

'Ethnic Cleansing in Progress: The War in Nagorno Karabakh'.”

Turkey was a dictatorial state since the end of the First World War and to his day everyone in Turkey is terrified from the Generals who bark orders from their barracks. As with all other dictatorships, Turks were denied freedom of speech and debate on issues that did not bode well with military rulers.

Hopefully Turkey will become a true democracy one day soon and qualify to join European Union. Instead of Turks being falsely proud of founding fathers with skeletons and loots from Christian subject in their closets they can build a nation based on truth and reconciliation with their minorities and all their neighbours.

Mehmet Baysan
14 October 2007 at 13:10

Western governments and Christian nations don't want to see the suffering of Muslim people in Chechnya, Nogorno-Karabagh, Palestine, Cyprus, Lebanon and in many other places. There can be no justification for the the murder of thousands of Muslim Azeris and ethnic-cleansing of Azeri Muslims by the Armenians. Muslim Turks and Kurds also suffered by the Armenian gangs and armed groups like Tashnak party during the Great War. Armenians also commited crimes and killed countless Muslim Turks in Turkish cities like Adana, Antep and Maraş during the occupation of Turkey.

JimmyJames
14 October 2007 at 17:00

Pierre Montreal has made some good points. To Mehmet Baysan I would say that ordinary Turks and Armenians seem to get on very well. The Karabakh problem which first saw anti-Armenian porgroms in Azerbaijan followed by war in Karabakh itself is more complex than many Turks are willing to accept. Also, cities like Adana, Antep etc were multi national. The Turks were sometimes in a minority (other communities Armenians, Arabs, Alevis, Assyrians, Greeks, Kurds made up the balance). How much better would it have been if Mustafa Kemal had promoted inter ethnic harmony in those towns after 1922 instead of treating remaining Armenians and other Christians as foreigners, to be expelled or forced to adopt a Turkish identity, or even killed?

The UK media, with the exception of the Independent have tended to take the Foreign Office position on the Armenian genocide

instead of showing some free thinking spirit

yorulmaz
14 October 2007 at 21:45

Stephen, Newstatesman and others who claim without knowing the truths:

You should never be confused and mistaken by the conditions of british colonization in the past, by the holocaust who can show gas chambers and the former Turkey's war conditions.

There is difference between "systematical killing" that requires an intense work on generation identification, and a killing of the revolted villages to the empire it belongs to. Please go ahead and study of the Turkey's being in war conditions before coming to conclusion what Turkey must accept.

As pursuit of new energy resources yield to possible reshape of the world, I am not surprised to see super world powers use this "armenian tale" as a political move. Not because they love armenians more than turks or vice versa.

I would highly suggest you study the link below which consists of meticilous work on the Russian archives where armenians admit by theirselves there is nothing they can do with this "tale" to sell it out to the rest of the world.

amanfromMars
15 October 2007 at 12:33

"Centrally planned by the government of the day and meticulously executed by the huge machine of the state bureaucracy, army, police, hired gangs and - specially released for that purpose - criminals from prisons, the campaign had one clear aim expressly stated by the government in secret directives: to rid Iraq of its indigenous ruling population and settle the so –called "control question’ for good.

Yes, Mr Ambassador, it is a very perverse regime change model best exposed so that it cannot be repeated with impunity. Bravo, Sir.

iainincanada
15 October 2007 at 19:10

One might look with trepidation and fear at what the Turkish Army intends to do soon, regarding the Kurds and a poosible invasion of North Iraq.

Pierre
15 October 2007 at 20:44

Why deal in the past there is genocide taking place today in Palestine,

As for the americans I suspect the Native North American Indians can make an airtight case of genocide against the "christian" americans.

MontrealTurk
15 October 2007 at 22:21

Ruzanna,

During World War I Turks did not attack neighboring Armenia. There was never was a country called ‘Armenia’. Ottoman Empire ruled the Balkans, North Africa, Middle East, and parts of Asia. Armenians were Ottoman citizens. They attempted to declare independence, at the weakest time of the Ottoman Army during World War I. They warred. War is ugly. People from both sides suffered. One side has to lose. I think the Dashnaq party should apologize for pushing their fellow Armenian into a war they lost.

MontrealTurk
15 October 2007 at 22:25

Alex Seattle,

Sorry, not all killing is genocide. There are pictures of dead Turkish people as well. There are reports of how Turkish women were raped and murdered atrociously by the Armenian gangs in the same place, during the same time period. Genocide happens, when people are targeted for their ethnicity or religion, color, etc. In 1915, Turks reacted in self defense. Genocide excludes warring parties.

Any war sounds like a genocide if the dead of only one side is counted.

Taner Akcam’s has a bone to pick with the Turkish government. Remember, he escaped prison. He found solace in the bosom of Armenians after falling desperate in exile. His academic qualities and biased views are questionable.

MontrealTurk
15 October 2007 at 22:47

Does the Armenian Ambassador not know historical facts, or is he disseminating false information to further the Armenian agenda? Is he not biased?

Nobody is denying that people starved. Controversy lies in the reason why?

Their leaders led the Armenians to a losing battle

People from both sides of the warring parties suffered. The Armenians made the war conditions extra harsh for everyone in the region. Muslims suffered more. Why ignore their suffering and dwell on Christian suffering alone?

Playing the Christian Card

Would there be less support if the losing side was Muslim Turks? Definitely, yes! The dual standards reduce the respectability of the accusing party.

People from all walks of life fought to defend their land. Ottoman Empire was founded in 1293 and lasted for over 6 centuries. Armenians held no strong government in the claimed areas since BC1000.

The number of dead is over exaggerated. How can more than existing population be killed? The number unaccounted for was below 300,000 when the dust settled. In the 60’s the exaggerated billboards in California read 600,000 and recently the claimed number of dead has doubled. Do the Armenian dead multiply?

The British Government bid James Bryce and Arnold Toynbee to write gray propaganda material in order to gain support of the Christian World. The Blue Book consists of one sided stories of Ambassador Morgenthau’s translators who were of Armenian ethnicity.

Rafael Lemkin was only 14 years old at the break of World War I. He never lived in the vicinity of Eastern Anatolia, so his opinion is based on second hand information. Hearsay does not hold in court of law. Further, Lemkin, himself excluded warring parties from the definition of genocide.

The weakness of the Armenian claims is obvious from the method they follow. In the case of Jewish Holocaust, Nuremberg Trials were held. No one doubts the Jews were targeted for being considered an inferior race. Jews never held a gun against the German civilians or soldiers. But, the Armenians killed plenty of Turkish civilians, and blockaded their army’s return routes while the Turks were defending their borders against the Russians. UN definition of genocide excludes warring parties.

In Germany Jews were not alloved to practice medicine or law. In Ottoman Empire, Armenians were in the parliament and holding high positions in the government. Obviously, there was no discrimination against their race. Armenians on the other hand spoke low of Muslim Turks, as they still do today. Who is the racist, genocide perpetrator?

The Armenian leader Boghos Nubarian announced 150,000 Armenians fought on the side of the Russians (1914-1915) against the Ottoman army. He also wrote, 55,000 of them fought alongside the French (in 1918-1919). These are well documented in all army archives. How can a warring party speak of genocide? The Turks reacted in self defense.

There are no friendly relations between neighboring Armenia and Turkey, because the former does not recognize the international borders of the latter. Would England hold friendly relations with France for instance, if they claimed 20% of their land?

The borders were closed as a reaction to Armenian invasion of 20% of Azerbaijan’s land. Why not condemn the recent genocide performed by Armenians on their neighbor Azerbaijan only 15 years ago, but judge 96 year old events based on one sided hearsay. Politicians are not experts to judge historical events of another country. They should not be the judge and jury without considering the historical evidence favoring the Muslim’s.

As for the law 301 against insulting Turkish nation; similar law exists in many EU countries, including French and Dutch. Hrant Dink was attacked by the Diaspora until his death. I suspects, they are behind his killing.

Douglas Chalmers
19 October 2007 at 11:45

As the USA loses its main airbase in the M.East (in Turkey), will this be the start of WW3???

This week:- While military action against Iran is a last resort, the U.S. has the resources to attack if needed despite the strains of wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, Navy Adm. Michael Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Thursday.......

......and Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Iran's acquisition of nuclear weapons could set of an arms race in the Middle East..... "and, as the president said, we must keep all options on the table...".

Then Bush's threat to everybody on the planet, "...if you're interested in avoiding World War III, it seems like you ought to be interested in preventing them from having the knowledge necessary to make a nuclear weapon..."!!!

newsnow
23 October 2007 at 11:53

When almost 2 million people of the same ethnic and religious minority group vanish due to starvation, deportation and mass-killings it becomes labeled as Genocide. The History can be re-written, but thankfully it cannot be easily forgotten. Some of the survivors of the Armenian Genocide, albeit old are still around, and others were kind enough to give interviews and have them video recorded before their demise – eyewitness accounts (with some Turkish sources too) are irrefutable. How would a U. S. citizen feel if suddenly Japan will declare that Pearl Harbor attack never really took place, and somehow Americans staged that entire mêlée of vicious conspiratorial motives? Sounds silly, doesn’t it? Well, everyone comprehends those tragic events were indeed the first Genocide of the 20th Century – everyone does, even most Turks do, and it’s time to start calling things by their real name. Anyone who allows to be intimidated by Turkish government and their spineless cronies is a weak, shortsighted and possibly a corrupted individual.

Michael
23 October 2007 at 17:19

It is not worth dignifying the topsy-turvy surreal revisionist histories posted by some of the T/C’s & their supporters, with corrections. Truth, just like Facts, has a quite stubborn characteristic, and can easily be verified by those with an unprejudiced mine & a willingness to investigate. Researching unbiased official international reports, as well as national official records (including recently declassified ones) is a good starting point.

Like a naughty child that when caught, Turkey always turns around and lies, “It wasn’t me” or "he hit me first", & points to others, normally the victims on the receiving end. Turkey & it supporters really need to grow-up, and take responsibility for their own actions, both past & present. Worst than just a naughty child, it is very much a spoilt child, in that it has gotten, indeed it has been facilitated, in its many recent crimes by Western support or acquiescence, simply because the “enemy of my enemy is my friend” guiding philosophy of NATO; that long border with Russia & all those bases so close to the Middle East, has literally allowed Turkey to get away with (mass) murder. It plays upon its value to the West, and has time after time used this as a blatant instrument of blackmail.

The Armenia Genocide is a good example, not only is blackmail & threats employed to invert the truth, but also corrupting bribes, witness the recent scandal of pro-Turkish US professors being funded directly by Turkish Government organisations. The recent Democratic initiative in the US of raising the Armenian Genocide issue, has tellingly only occurred because powerful Israeli lobby groups, especially the ADL, were having such trouble with rank & file members, because of these groups hypocritical official position of campaigning against anti-Semitism & denial of the Holocaust, but refusing to acknowledge the reality of the Armenian Genocide. A hypocritical stands directly following official Israeli Government policy. Historical truth being shamefully sacrificed on the altar of not upsetting Israel’s second best friend.

Regarding Cyprus, yes the history is long & involved, but the issue is simple; an illegal land grab by means of ethnic cleansing. The Turkish Cypriots were used by Turkey, exactly as Germany used the Sudeten German minority in Czechoslovakia to invade & annex that Country. Rather than imitating Nazi Germany, Turkey would do follow post-War Germany’s example of admitting it’s crimes & paying restitutions to all its victims; only then can when it comes to terms with its past, can it move forward as a modern progressive Country, and take its place amongst other nations without being dogged & haunted by is past.

Finally I agree with a previous commenter, that assigning the strong pro-Turkish bias of all recent British Governments, simply as a vote winning tactic is more than naïve, and mars an otherwise good article.

MontrealTurk
25 October 2007 at 22:21

You speak of Armenians allegations as if it is the law of gravity. I have not seen any evidence or logical explanation to prove the allegations. UN definition of genocide requires the group to be attacked “as such” - for belonging to the group, not because they pose military threat. Armenians and Turks lived in peace for centuries. Ottoman Sultan elevated their religious leader in the government hierarchy. Even in 1915 Armenians held very prominent positions in the Ottoman Government, so you cannot say they were put down like the Jews were in the years leading up to the Holocaust. No one can deny that Armenians were up in arms against Turks. War is ugly. People die when their political leaders enter into war. For example; Saddam and Bush. Sad as it may be, not every death can be called genocide. Dashnaks shoul own up to their responsibility in the death of millions of Muslims and Christians from 1915-1923. The numbers mentioned are way out of proportion.

Ottoman Sultans held census every few years to tax their citizens, so they had no motivation to underestimate the Armenian population. Besides an Armenian headed the census bureau for three consecutive terms. In 1914, they were reported as 1.3 million. Head of Armenian delegation Boghos Nubar boasted that “150,000 Armenians volunteered in Russian, 45,000 in French army, and 30,000 more in other areas fought for the Allies.” This totals 225,000. If each rebel had 3 siblings, a mom and dad, that brings the toral rebels to 6*225,000=1.35 million. This leaves no innocent Armenians. Turks deported only 700,000 – 800,000 of them within the country. The Patriarch reported in 1920 that 645,000 of them returned back. Boghos Nubar mentioned "300,000 of the deportees are unaccounted for" in 1919. In the 60's, exaggerated billboards in California read 600,000 died. Turks ignored them, so they increased the numbers to 1.5 million. Do the Armenian dead multiply?

What else would I expect from a very biased source on the Armenian allegations?

mtakman
27 October 2007 at 00:44

There is a legitimate historical controversy concerning the interpretation of the events in question and most of the scholars who have propounded a contra genocide viewpoint are of the highest calibre and repute, including Bernard Lewis, Stanford Shaw, David Fromkin, Justin McCarthy, Guenther Lewy, Norman Stone, Kamuran Gürün, Michael Gunter, Gilles Veinstein, Andrew Mango, Roderic Davidson, J.C. Hurwitz, William Batkay, Edward J. Erickson and Steven Katz.

This is by no means an exhaustive list. A good number of well-respected scholars recognize the deportation decision in 1915, taken under World War I conditions, as a security measure to stop the Armenians from co-operating with the foreign forces invading Anatolia.

On the legal aspect, the elements of the genocide crime are strictly defined and codified by the UN Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Genocide, adopted by the General Assembly on 9 December 1948. However, Armenians, claiming that "the evidence is so overwhelming", so far have failed to submit even one credible evidence of genocide.

_IT IS A BIG LIE

beta
27 October 2007 at 01:16

the evidence is here if you really want to look at it

http://www.rememberarmenia.co.uk

Bagraduni
28 October 2007 at 02:49

Turkey is a brainwashed nation. It only knows its history (including the Armenian Genocide) what it has been taught by The Turkish Historical Society, a quasi State bureacratic institution created by Ataturk in the early 1930s - interestingly before the Nazis created theirs headed by Gobbles! It is curious that apart from producing official fables as history through State Universities and state research centres under tight supervision and control of The Historical Society, Turkey has had to protect these fables by punishing anyone that dared to challenge them (these fables) through totaliterian/authoritarian/semi-facsist "insulting turkishness" laws, like the infamous 301 penal code, and others, leading to the prosecution of their best INDEPENDENT AND BRAVE minds, such as (to name but a few): Ragip Zarakolou, Ayshe Nour Zarakolou (who died in prison), Orhan Pamuk (a Noble Prize winner, normally celebrated by civilised/democratic countries!), the late Hrant Dink, Elif Shafak, Taner Akcam, the late Yilmaz Guney... .

To this list one can add hundreds of upright, independent and decent writers, publishers, teachers, academics and journalists who are brave and decent enough to stand to this huge and brutal military- burecratic bully/lie machine at the cost of loss of jobs and livlihood, prosecution and prison and even death by the Grey Wolves/Deep State murderers (Hrant Dink is only one of a long list).

Thesre's no way anyone should dignify any of these clones of the The Turkish Historical Society by entering into any debate with them, or trying to correct their fable-based reasoning and "facts" (selective, out of context, doctored, massaged and manipulated and when these wont do shameless straight lying!).

If Turkey wants to continue to behave in this wain then

I suggest (for the sake of consistency) The Republic of Turkey should rename itself The Republic of Ostrch, or better still The Proud Republic of Ostrich With Its Head Deep In The Sand (abreviated to TPROOWIHDITS). For good measure it should also create The Ostrich Flat Earth Society as the sister organisation of Dr Halacoglu's Turkish/Ostrich Historical Society. Just to be on the safe side it would be a good idea to have a penal code 301FE (301 Flat Earth) to prosecute anyone who disagreed with the official Ostrich State's view that the Earth was flat. Given enough "incentives" the western luminaries who have sold their soul for decades for 30 pieces of silver to help spin more fables about the Armenian Genocide for internal and external consumption, might join in the new Ostrich effort to prove to the World that: the Earth IS FLATafter all!

MontrealTurk
28 October 2007 at 13:27

Bagraduni screams like a spolit child. What is worse is he is not aware that he is brainwashed. His tirade is full of falsifications and all out lies. Insults will get him nowhere. Facts are clearly on the Turks' side.

Insulting anyone who disagrees with you is not very smart, is it? I believe he is a member of the flat earth society whose path the armen geno cholars are doomed to follow. I can respond only to honest debaters with scholarly facts.

MontrealTurk
28 October 2007 at 13:33

Beta: Sorry, sad as it may be, not every death is genocide. Raphale Lemkin removed warring parties from the UN Definition of genocide. Armenains were clearly at war with the Turks during world war 1. They were trying to eradicate Truks and Muslims in general from areas where they lived for centuries.

There are two sides to a war, but only one can win. Sorry folks, go demand your leaders, Dashnak and Armenian Revolutionary Federation fellows to explain your losses. While you are at it, demand justice for Muslim civilian deaths also. Ignoring the dead of one side and immortalizing the other is not very human is it?

db63
28 October 2007 at 23:24

Just take a look at yourselves, every one is disgraceful and no one has even found a reason to be true unto themselves as they should be to one another.

The truth is the lies are feed upon both sides by the puppeteers and unfortunately they believe their own lies.

beta
29 October 2007 at 15:05

It's shameful that Turks are supporting the official version of their history the way they support their national football team...with no appreciation of the differences between the two. I truly feel sorry for the free thinking individuals in the Turkish society.. I feel even more sorry for the people out there who consider Turkey to be a modern european country. Not much havce changed in Turkey since the Ottoman days.

MontrealTurk
29 October 2007 at 19:44

Show some respect for our belief Beta. Yours cannot be the only train of thought can it?

Of course Turks learn their history from Turkish scientists and archives. Where did you learn the Armenian theories - from Swiss schools? Which national soccer team do you support - German? Try to be a free thinking individual in Armenian society before blaming Turks. And believe me, nothing on this subject was/is taught in Turkish schools. I investigated as an adult after my strage encounters with the Armenians in Canada. They were screaming uncontrollably upon hearing that I was Turkish. A clear sign of brainwashing without logical reasoning.

beta
29 October 2007 at 20:20

Montreal Turk

I must say it's very dissapointing that a person who lives in a liberal country like Canada, with all the opportunities for free thinking relies on Turkish fabricated history for information.

If one wanted to research the attrocities of the Nazis, one does not read Nazi propaganda for information...if one wanted to research attrocities in Darfur..one does not refer to the booklets published by the Sudanese government for.....you get my drift? so lets' stop claiming that you did your independent research on the topic.

Read some independent reports to educate yourself if you really want to know the topic. If you feel you already know enough from the Turkish history books...I have nothing else to say.

If you're puzzled by the Armenian reaction in Montreal, here is an excercise that might help you understand it better. Find yourself a few people with Jewish background in Montreal, people who had relatives in the concentration campsand try arguing against the facts surrounding the Holocaust...I hope you won't be surprised if they started "screaming uncontrollably" at you.

You (like your coutnrymen back in Turkey) simply fail to see the human tragedy of a genocide and you seem to be content with your head in the sand. You have a unique problem because there is little sand in Canada.

I am not surprised that your extremist views are not echoed on the streets of Canada. If you persist on being a Genocide denier...I suggest you learn to live like one...in the shaddows of civilized society.

MontrealTurk
29 October 2007 at 23:52

Beta Armenian:

No independent document or logical explanation of the historic events is offered by armenian propagandists. You have not presented any, upon my insistence.

If you wish to learn unbiased history, you should not rely on armenian say so either. Obviously, you have not gone beyond mere stories. Were you able to deny any of the facts I presented here? I hope you can silence your conscience after reading the facts I presented here.

There cannot be denial of something unproven. First prove that it was geno. I am definitely not responsible if someone is led to believe in false history. Who ever brainwashed the screamers must cure them. Turkey is not going to admit to something that is not true just because a society got sick over nothing.

beta
30 October 2007 at 00:27

http://www.rememberarmenia.co.uk

look at all the eye witness reports, government reports and newspaper articles from that time era. Read what your own intelectuals write...it even explains your hysteric reaction.

You are in such denial that you wouldn't believe it even if you saw it with your own eyes. You cannot be helped. Stay in the shadows where all genocide deniers belong...it must be very lonely out there.

MontrealTurk
30 October 2007 at 14:41

This morning I slammed a mosquito with my towel. The poor helpless tiny mosquito was perched on the ceiling, and I mercilessly hurled a very heavy towel over it with all might.

Being a Turkish Muslim, I worry that my children one day could be pestered by 'genocide denializm' after I die.

beta
30 October 2007 at 14:54

That is something that we can both agree on...I too feel sorry for your children.

MontrealTurk
31 October 2007 at 18:52

To correct the misunderstanding, I must rewrite:

This morning I slammed a mosquito with my towel. The poor helpless tiny mosquito was perched on the ceiling, and I mercilessly hurled a very heavy towel over it with all might.

Being a Turkish Muslim, I worry that it may one day be deemed genocide of the mosquitos.

beta
31 October 2007 at 19:18

I got you the first time...that's why I feel sorry for you and your children,

ArmenianLiesUncovered
10 November 2007 at 04:23

Turkey's prime minister offers to resolve the issue by preparing a committe of scientists of any kind related to this issue, historians, archeologists, sociologists etc.

And says "we are ready to face our history but Armenia denies those offers".

Moreover, Armenia denies to solve the issue at int'l war crime court.

Today, so called genocide is only related to Armenian Diaspora's political efforts actually a dishonest act since even though Armenian's are totally sure that history supports their claims but they always to deny solving the issue with support of science.

www.beyazrenkler.org
08 August 2008 at 16:35

US Senator Buying Policies” of Armenian Lobby in the USA -Michael van der Galien

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“US Senator Buying Policies” of Armenian Lobby in the USA

August 6th, 2008 · No Comments

Buying Policies

Michael van der Galien, Editor-in-Chief

PoliGazette takes a closer look into the financial records of US Senator Menendez (D NJ). His vote can and has been bought.

One of the main things Americans frequently complain about is the influence of special interest groups over politicians and, thus, over how the United States is ran. Too many laws, these Americans say, are designed not with the best interest of the American people in mind, but with the interest of said groups in mind. This is, Americans rightfully complain, now how the US government was meant to function.

In recent months and years some Democratic politicians have constantly functioned as mouthpieces for one of those special interest groups; Armenian American nationalists. For some, for most Americans, unknown reason, these Democratic Senators and Representatives bring the events of 1915 which they call the Armenian Genocide up whenever they can. This obsession with something that happened almost 100 years ago resulted in an international controversy when one of the first acts of the Democratically controlled US Congress after the elections of 2006 was to adopt a resolution that labels said events officially as ʽgenocide.ʼ

Turkey denies that what happened constitutes genocide and argues, instead, that historians, not politicians, should cast judgment on this affair. In response to the resolution Turkey threatened to withdraw its support for the War in Iraq and, more importantly, would no longer allow the US to use Turkey (to move troops, material, etc.) in order to fight and thus win in that Middle Eastern country.

Americans wondered what happened to their government; why was the war put at risk? Why were American lives put at risk? Why this sudden obsession with something that has no relation whatsoever with America?

PoliGazette has the answers to those questions. As usual it is about one thing only: money.

One of the most fervent supporters of the Armenian cause in the United States is Senator Robert Menendez. He is one of the Senators who blocked George W. Bushʼs nomination for ambassador to Armenia; when Bush wanted to send that person, Menendez blocked the nomination because the nominee refused to call what happened to the Armenian as ʽgenocide.ʼ Later Bush nominated another diplomat, and once again Menendez objected, etc. In the end, though, Marie Yovanovitch was finally confirmed.

And once again Americans wondered what the hell just happened. Why was Menendez so passionate about this subject? Why is history politicized?

As said, it is about one thing, and one thing only; money. PoliGazetteʼs Kemal (who did most of the work) and me, Michael, took a closer look at the financial records of Senator Menendez and found that he has been paid and bought by Armenian activists. All in all, this Senator received some $136,000 from Armenian action committees and individuals; quite a gigantic sum.

Below follows the complete record of Armenian donations to Senator Menendez. Iʼll summarize the findings here, for details, scroll down to the records.

One of the first things one notices about the Armenians who donated to Senator Menendez is that many of the Armenian donaters do not live in New Jersey. This means that he is not representing them, since American Senators represent a specific part of the population who are able to vote him or her in and out of office. In other words, a sizable part of Menendezʼs donaters are not his constituents.

Since he does not represent them nor their regional interests, common sense dictates that he works for them in other areas. This is, obviously, the Armenian Genocide issue. Menendez has become one of the most vocal US Senators on this subject.

Another interesting aspect of Menendezʼs financial records is that he receives a lot of money from Armenian organizations, or PACS. These PACS are special interest groups, who often only deal with one subject. The Armenian PACS that donate to Menendez are the Armenian American PAC and the Armenian Americans Legislative Issues Committee. Together these PACS have donated $25,746 to Menendez.

Menendezʼs own financial records taken from the Federal Election Commissionʼs website show that this one, individual Senator alone has received $136,481 from Armenian organizations and individuals, many of whom not constituents of this Democratic Senator for New Jersey. This amount, a significant amount, has caused Menendez to focus a lot of time and attention to the Armenian ʽGenocideʼ issue and has, directly, resulted in international controversies and worsening relations with Americaʼs allies.

Here follow the details. Names of individuals are published because those records are available and open to the public already at other places.

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http://www.beyazrenkler.org/forum/showthread.php?t=5544

http://poligazette.com/2008/08/05/buying-policies/