Return to: Home | Politics | UK Politics

108 comments from readers

Carl Jones
09 October 2008 at 10:23

I was warning about this designed crash 6/7 years ago on the BBC Radio 4 message boards. Things have been bad for a long time, but the writting was on the wall when the Fed stopped publishing the M3 numbers, Greenspan`s interest rate cut to 1% and Bush`s huge tax break for the rich. The housing bubble became enormous. All this in conjuction with a huge drop in real terms incomes, it could only lead to one thing.

What the American and British governments have done, is robbed the public.....MAKE NO MISTAKE! This is elite crminality of the highest order.

As you say, it came from nowhere and they blamed shot selling....another NWO lie. I still believe the trading systems were hacked and targetted falling prices were displayed and some traders reacted predictably....and it snow balled. Not only are all these systems hotwired into the SIS, most of the key security people in these banks, also have strong links with the SIS.

Certain financial businesses were targetted, their value melted away, the were nationalised, closed down with other banks buying the best bits for a song. It doesn`t matter which way you look at it, the people have been robbed. The government is protecting deposits and they are doing this so they can hand the banks huge amounts of public debt....debt that YOUR children will be paying off in their dotage.

I pulled up Mr Brummer a year ago for NOT TELLING THE TRUTH ABOUT WHAT WAS GOING TO UNFOLD. Just read the comments to his articles. The politicians, the bankers and the MSM are crooks and liers.LOL

writeon
09 October 2008 at 13:04

This collapse of the West's private financial system, which is what's really happening, will have massive consequences. The United States could find itself resembling the Soviet Union, with geographical regions pulling away from incompetent central control and in Washington. The 'ruling class' in the US is perhaps fatally damaged. It is rapidly losing legitimacy. How bad will things get? Is the current crisis a crisis of historic dimensions that will change the world for ever?

the remnant
09 October 2008 at 14:29

Armageddon is the answer. Read the free online book 2008 God's Final Witnes.....He returns on Pentecost of 2012, yes really. In Grace, one of the remnant research these north american union haarp uaff.us stevequayle.com weatherwars cern monsanto and roundup resistant crops planet nibiru and 2012 book of enoch project red sky opertion papperclip rex 84 fema camps usa willthomasonline.net truth disguised as conspiracy theory is the order of the day

Cybertiger
09 October 2008 at 15:35

“In America, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street tried to stage a kind of financial coup, in the original Paulson plan, which would have allowed the treasury secretary to spend public money without political or judicial oversight. Public anger was intense.”

Anger may be intense but Americans are a feeble, useless bunch of critters. Ordinary Americans will only rise up if the US Supreme Court (SCOTUS) were ever to attempt to strike down the death penalty. However, the nine of the SCOTUS, the epitome of American democracy, would never attempt anything so rash.

PS. In my view, the bonus crooks of New London Town should be extraordinarily rendered by outboard waterboard to Camp X-ray on Cuba.

cat osb
09 October 2008 at 15:52

Interesting article, very forward looking, thanks.

But your comment, "with luck, our democratic institutions will remain a bulwark against such authoritarianism" - suggests a naive faith in our politicans.

writeon
09 October 2008 at 16:06

Supposedly the world debt blackhole for derivatives alone has grown to somewhere between 600 and 700 trillion, remember a trillion is a thousand billion, a billion is a thousand million. Do such massive numbers have any real meaning for most people? I doubt it.

In a way this huge, debt super-nova represents nothing more than 'confidence' and 'greed'; yet people did along the food-chain access real money from 'abstraction' and pocketed the profits, financing lavish lifestyles, and as long as nobody let the secret out, that it was collective fantasy, everything seemed solid enough.

However, now the confidence edifice is collapsing, and it's an massive edifice, built higher and higher over years, yet despite appearances, it's still an illusion.

What this means in practice is that all this false confidence in an illusion has to return to more 'normal' and 'realistic' level, closer to the world of the real economy of things and real services. This will be a long and very painful process as 'capitalism' and the socalled 'free market' need optimism and confidence like a junkie needs crack or coke. This is financial cold turkey like nobody's business.

What worse is that financing the 'bailout' is going to be very problematic during a slump. Where is the money going to come from? Are we, for example going to sacrifice the wellfare state to save the banks? Taxes will have to rise, but during a slump?

Economic hard times are now hitting China as well. The Chinese have a problem, should they use their collosal reserves to support the Chinese economy, or should they use it to save the American economy? And what do they get in return? Should they accept 'worthless' paper in return, or should they demand large chunks of what's left of the real economy instead?

john problem
09 October 2008 at 17:01

The thinking of Darling & Brown, Chartered Accountants, goes like this: We don't have a clue - and neither does anybody else - about how deep this thing is, because the banks won't come clean. But we must do something, or the polls will get worse. We've already got a huge debt, but we'd best ignore that. So. Let's say that we'll do a bail-out of so much, without being too specific, and see if we can flush out the full extent of the mess. Of course, we haven't got money enough to do what we say we can, but we may not have to come up with it, anyway, so what's to lose?

We look as though we're being active and the polls always improve when government acts. Whether it's doing so, rightly or wrongly (vide Thatcher). Neat, huh?

Here's my problem. Who had the nous to invent this?

Not those two, surely?

Cybertiger
09 October 2008 at 17:02

@writeon

"The Chinese have a problem, should they use their collosal reserves to support the Chinese economy, or should they use it to save the American economy?"

Dump the Yanks in a black hole of their own making - as divine retribution for all their sins.

Carl Jones
09 October 2008 at 18:54

The US/ China complex.....looks like a repetition of Japan/USA. All we need to do is wait for the trigger event. Who knows, maybe China and the US will arrange some beneficial fun.LOL

robertsgt40
09 October 2008 at 19:06

Two points--the money already has run out. They are just printing more worthless paper. Second, Nobody trusts the govt. This is a house of cards waiting to collapse. Just a matter of time. Only option--tar and feathers and lots of rope

writeon
09 October 2008 at 20:01

A contradiction or paradox at the heart of how we deal with this financial meltdown, is that we are being asked to accept that the very same people, from the same 'aristocracy' that got us into this mess, are also the best suited to get us out again. How logical or sensible is this attitude? How credulous are we?

Are we really supposed to believe that these people are qualified or intelligent enough to apply the painful and necessary remedies? Do any of them really inspire confidence? Personally I think they are mostly arrogant, ignorant and incompetent. Surely this has to be true, as they have consequently ignored the signs and warnings that the system was not only flawed but incredibly unstable and dangerously over-extended. It's not as if this crisis just happend, like an act of nature. We knew this was coming. It couldn't go on expanding like this moving further and further away from reality. Yet the politicians did nothing to stop it happening. The politicians are the servants of the market, which means the people who control the market - the aristocracy. If we lived in democratic society we would have curbed these people years ago, only we don't and we didn't. We let them drag us over the edge and now to add insult to injury we are actually bailing them out, instead of chasing them out.

What we need is something like the revolt that occured in France in 1789, we need a proper clean out of the stables and a whole new group of people, who represent the interests of more than the aristocracy taking over the reins of power in society. It won't be perfect and it probably won't be pretty, but there is no alternative. 1789 it's that time.

Cybertiger
09 October 2008 at 20:15

"It won't be perfect and it probably won't be pretty, but there is no alternative. 1789 it's that time."

Down with the aristocracy. Americans first. To the guillotine. In Cuba. Off with their heads.

Carl Jones
09 October 2008 at 22:11

Burn down their TEMPLES.LOL

Nilsey105
10 October 2008 at 00:16

"an incremental nationalisation of the banking system"

NO this is not nationalisation in the words of Darling, "we are not seeking to control the banks"

"the United States has thrown $700bn at the Wall Street banks"

NO it is less than half that amount in the first instance.

"Ireland has placed the entire collective wealth of its people at the disposal of its delinquent banks by guaranteeing all bank deposits. Germany righteously condemned beggar-my-neighbour Ireland, and then did the same, while insisting it had not. Denmark, Austria and Greece have followed suit. "

YES but the UK government has also done the same ,though not said so explicitly.

"Globally, we are seeing increasing state involvement"

YES but this is not nationalisation nor is it socialism.

"Phlegmatic Britain doesn't do civil unrest. But we know from what happened in Europe in the 1930s that systemic financial crisis can lead rapidly to the growth of political extremism."

True because the populace is now apathetic.

Thatcher destroyed the dissent from the working class by destroying the trade union movement in the UK.

Blair, Brown et al carried that thru in the guise of New Labour.

The mantra of the Tories, in the late 50s early 60s, of you have never had it so good has become unspoken mantra of Blair and Brown.

Harold Wilson was far nearer the mark;

WE HAVE NEVER HAD IT

gnuneo
10 October 2008 at 00:17

"But your comment, "with luck, our democratic institutions will remain a bulwark against such authoritarianism" - suggests a naive faith in our politicans."

democracy is NOT reliant upon politicians - it is the Will of the people to have a stake, to have some control over their lives, political, economic and social. It is the willingness of the People to remain true to the Ideals of open discussion, to secular religious freedom, to Freedom of Assembly, to be willing to open dialogue instead of reaching for the rope/axe/guillotine.

there are two very clear dangers here to us "phlegmatic" Britons - one is the Elite will use the slowly built up powers of Totalitarian Govt to crush the inevitable civil unrest as the People losing their homes, jobs and even basic food in their bellies turn upon the ones who have created the mess - the Elites themselves - and the other is that demagogues (almost certainly Far-Right ones considering the current media's owners openly fascist tendencies) will rise up and make a deal with the Elites and use the politics of Hatred to ride their way into power - just as the National Socialists did in Germany.

there are two observations upon this - one that this all happened to East Asia only a few years ago, (and was amazingly ill-reported for something that virtually destroyed Asian economies and caused massive social unrest - certainly very few commentators pointed out our own vulnerability to fall into the same trap), and the other is the documentary "end of suburbia", that warned of the dangers of economic conditions that lead to Fascism arising again in the West in the near future - now.

gnuneo
10 October 2008 at 00:34

what to do? Turn the clock back a few decades to the pre-Thatcher days, and decentralise power, wealth and the economy.

nationalise - but then privatise to the workers, create a strong social democratic economy, just as Northern Rock was a stable mutual society, and a highly unstable feudal profit-making scam - so too spread this wisdom to the wider economy, ensure companies are inured from stock-market collapses by being capitalist partnerships (cooperatives), end the death-grip the multi-nationals have upon us and our economy (stop shopping at Tescos and shop at your local businesses like Infinity Foods), use the power and wealth of the Govt to actively build and support small-businesses in vital sectors across the entire economy, - in essence, drop both the neo-liberal notions the State should not actively seek to built the economy (a notion as thoroughly debunked as Marxist economic theory has been), and also the notion that having an economy run for the benefit of the ultra-wealthy living in tax-havens is somehow beneficial for the Society.

we neither need totalitarian control by the State (in either Fascism or Socialism form), nor neo-liberal control by the Feudal Few - we need social democracy, we need people to own their own companies and housing, we need to radically cut the wealth gap, we need politicians who have a vision of how to achieve all this peacefully and within the liberal democratic framework, and we need to have this ASAP.

IMHO i don't think "THIS IS IT" for us, we will re-stabilise (with a great deal of pain, and best that be inflicted more upon the ultra-wealthy as opposed to the poorest and weakest), and we will have a (very) few years to put these economic, social and political changes into practice before the *real* crunch hits - which will be when the full effects of 'peak oil' are felt, and oil starts crossing the $5 boundary.

we do still have the time, but we have so God-damned little time left.

Local Businesses, Locally Owned.

Camus
10 October 2008 at 09:19

Read the article in LRB by John Lanchester - you will

find some useful detail on the origin of the crisis.

iainmorse
10 October 2008 at 09:32

Gordon Brown is responsible for the severity of this crisis in the UK because he as Chancellor kept the credit party going (look at his choice of a definition of retail price inflation for use by the MPC)and labour have spent and spent and spent.

taghioff.info
10 October 2008 at 09:52

Since our current form of capitalism is based on lending money out at interest, and since this implies an ever-increasing money supply, and since that needs to be matched with more goods and services, to avoid inflation, then without massive rises in natural resource productivity, this system was always going to be unsustainable.

But does this latest crisis mean an end to a debt-based system? Is anyone talking seriously about a new international fianacial framework? Is anyone willing to take on board Liatier's ideas about how currencies are issued?

I was ridiculed by a financial analyst on these pages for mentioning fractional reserve lending, but has the debate now shifted enough that we can start taking control of the asylum again?

Cybertiger
10 October 2008 at 10:03

"... to be willing to open dialogue instead of reaching for the rope/axe/guillotine. "

These guys don't do dialogue; they only understand violence.

There has really got to be some blood shed over this grand larceny or the buggers will carry on thieving. At the very least that guy from Lehmanns should be made to scrub the rest rooms at Guantanamo for a couple of decades.

iainmorse
10 October 2008 at 11:35

All that the private sector banks did was use the money given them at low interest rates by central banks and (ultimately) our politicians. Our regulators (the responsibility of one Gordon Brown) were unable and unwilling to regulate ......the politicians wanted the party to keep going so labour could win its 'historic third term'.....

Roland Baker
10 October 2008 at 16:28

If all you want to know is what happens when the money runs out, just read Middlemarch by George Eliot. Note her description of the auction of Bulstrode the banker's effects in the wainscoted parlour at Stone Court by Trumbull the auctioneer - "what will you bid me for this wonderful painting Mr Ladislaw?".

If and when the money runs out on today's banks, National Savings and Investments might not look like such a flight to quality if the British Government goes into default. The elephant in the room today is that there is no bottomless pit. At some point, if the special liquidity arrangements do not work, someone has to call time and admit defeat. What then? That is the true question. A CDO and a CDS with a CFD on all your houses probably!

"Britain doesn't do civil unrest." Excuse me? Toxteth, Brixton, the Poll Tax Riots, Orgreave and Marsh Farm? I am already dreading the EU Parliamentary elections in 2009 on the regional list system with no alliance between Labour and the Lib Dems to keep the fascists out.

"Ireland has in effect merged the state with the banks". They have guaranteed bank deposits, which is not quite the same. The guarantee, theoretically, might not be called. But it makes a change from merging it with the Catholic Church. Perhaps they should pray more. The Pope might have the answer but don't hold your breath.

writeon
10 October 2008 at 18:15

The media, and the financial media specifically, with few exceptions, have also responsibility for this crisis, at least in relation to how it's perceived.

The 'bailouts' in the United States and the UK were presented pretty much as 'solutions' and substantially over-hyped. Their clear failure has caused a counter-reaction, and evaporation of optimism and confidence.

Is confidence in George Bush or those he chooses justified. Everything he's touched in business has failed. He is simply a failure. He was always out of his depth as president and he surrounded himself with poor quality advisors and ministers. But, to be fair, the current crisis isn't his fault alone, it's the fault of the capitalist culture which has evolved in the US for the last thirty years. The growth and success of the right-wing, post New Dea economy, was based on the growth of debt, not the expansion of the real economy. Now it's all collapsing in heap of insolvancy big enough to bury us all.

Unfortunately I believe we're on the very edge of a financial collapse, a run on the banks and probably a Depression worse than the 1930's. That's if we are unlucky, and we are unlucky, unlucky that our current political leaders are almost totally useless. They don't even understand the nature of the crisis we face and its causes.

We're also unlucky that there's an election going on in the United States, this severely weakens the power and prestige of the president. Bush will soon be gone, but his mess will remain. The centre is weak and almost paralysed, and using the wrong methods to solve the crisis and restore confidence, and these people will be around for months, even after the election until the new president takes over.

At the rate we are going down, there may not be much left to take over in the new year!

This is a crisis of the ruling class, the people I call the aristocracy, we desparately need new leaders, fresh and untainted, the problem is how do we get them into positions of power?

writeon
10 October 2008 at 19:19

What do most financial journalists really do? I think they are mostly propagandists, presenting the views, attitudes and interests of the powerful, those who own and control society, to the rest of us peasants, in way they are like a preisthood.

What is the news? The news is a parade of the rich and the powerful, their agenda, their ideology, their interests, which are presented as 'natural' non-partisan, and even good for everyone else, even though they are narrrowly class-based. Somehow the class-based interests of a powerful minority are presented as the interests of the country.

The number of financial journalists critical of the capitalist system can almost be counted on the fingers of one hand, and even they are marginalized. Listening to the BBC is extraordinary, the bias towards optimism, their default mode, is striking.

The procession of 'financial experts' presented is so incredibly narrow. A tiny group of bankers, brokers and financiers, who are part of the system and profit from it. The number of independent experts or academics allowed to comment is insultingly small. Roughly speaking one hears less than 5% critical opinions, day after day after day.

It's no wonder people think there is no alternative.

It's like we live in a totalitarian dictatorship already, a dictatorship of the mind and ideas. It's as if there is no oposition. What this means is that power is totally unconstrained and can do virtually what it pleases with potentially catastrophic consequences when things go wrong, if they make mistakes, if there are no breaks on their powers and no debate.

So we have system without any real democratic restraint or control and precious little real regulation.

The journalists and the mass media are not only owned by the powerful, they are controlled and serve their interests. And they don't even know it. They don't understand that those who might have expressed dissident views have been filtered out and learned how to play the game.

Douglas Chalmers
10 October 2008 at 19:39

Confidence Is Leaving the Fiat Money System - "Under today's fiat-money regime, banks, under governments' auspices, increase the money stock "out of thin air" whenever they extend loans. The money supply is built on credit, which, in turn, hinges on peoples' confidence in banks and banks' confidence in their borrowers' ability and willingness to service their debt..... symptoms of the crumbling monetary (dis)order. Their underlying causes are to be found in the government-sponsored expansion of bank credit and money. It is a system that stretches the monetary demand beyond the economies' economic resources..... no means of avoiding the final collapse of a boom brought about by credit expansion..." http://mises.org/story/3146

What a stupid system, uhh! When we learn that our most important asset is our health and wellbeing and that what we are is more important than what we can grasp, order will return. But what we are seeing today is the end of the old order of imperialism and the capitalist robber barons that underpinned it through exploitation and their "great game" of Machiavellian politics.

What we now know is that it was all so utterly childish and ultimately as unproductive and unprofitable (except for a few vampires) as the millions of men who needlessly died or were wounded in WW1 simply to feed the dominant military-industrial complexes at the time (total around 30 million). This is no way to run a pensions fund or an even an overdraft facility for day-to-day business trading.

The lesson to be learned now is global co-operation. Obviously, global warming has not been alarming enough to activate peoples' altruistic interests for mutual survival. The concepts of exploitation and conquest and winner-takes-all have still persisted. Whatever happens now, though, still runs the risk of being hijacked to enslave the citizens of the G7, the G20 and thus the rest of the world as before.

Carl Jones
10 October 2008 at 20:16

There are many self made million/billionaires who are starting to crash.....these folk were the bedrock on which the bankers built their profits (M&A), they ran the businesses that made profit, but now they are out in the cold. They made their money based on the No1 rule of free market ecnomics, "that money flows unhindered....sure, the cost of credit should change, but the idea that credit could/would stop was an ABSOLUTE no, no. Then all of a sudden, a bunch of middle men decide that the credit stops.

I find it amazing that our NWO controlled government will extend a more or less unlimited line of credit to some crooks, but fails to provide a line of credit to the folk who actually create wealth and employ ordinary people.....these wealth creaters are losing their shirts, in order to raise cash, they are selling parts of their business.....to who? Of course, its an asset grab!!!

Anyone who still doesn`t believe this is a pre-planned conspiracy, is a fool.

tc
10 October 2008 at 20:25

the left has as much blame to accept as the feudal few of the right. Where were the voices of urgent critical analysis that should have been the sirens of socialist perception?

Why did the left sit back and suck on the lies of the greed merchants. Old Tony, Chomsky and.....??? the rest gobbled from the trough.

Carl Jones
10 October 2008 at 20:53

tc, all left leaning MSM is owned/controlled by the rightwing elite. You can`t stop left leaning thnking. Normal intelligent people will swing towards the centre and left, so by owning the left leaning MSM, you control the debate. Take The Guardian, they published some of the most pro and blood thirsty pre Iraq war articles. You could never describe the NS as cutting left leaning journalism

outsider
10 October 2008 at 23:02

'We may be about to discover just how dangerous it was to allow all those CCTV cameras to be put up on every street corner; to arm the police and turn them into a kind of civil army; to extend detention without trial. With luck, our democratic institutions will remain a bulwark against such authoritarianism, but this will require vigilance...'

'Fraid you're too late with your warning, Iain...

http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=15869

Aaron Russo's excellent video 'America - Freedom to Fascism' shows how the Money scam started up in the States; 'One Nation Under Siege' gives idea of Police State in the making (both available to watch on Gary Franchi's site, 'Lone Lantern'.

Also some useful videos and opinions :

http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=12235&highl...

This financial meltdown 'has all the hallmarks of Al CIA-dah'; or as i believe it was Webster Tarpley who wrote: 'The CIA is Wall Street, and Wall Street if the CIA'.

gnuneo
11 October 2008 at 03:05

"I find it amazing that our NWO controlled government will extend a more or less unlimited line of credit to some crooks, but fails to provide a line of credit to the folk who actually create wealth and employ ordinary people.....these wealth creaters are losing their shirts, in order to raise cash, they are selling parts of their business.....to who? Of course, its an asset grab!!!

Anyone who still doesn`t believe this is a pre-planned conspiracy, is a fool."

yes, this result was built into the very bedrock of the systems, political, social and economic.

it is Class-War, pure and simple. Control of companies was in the hands of the Feudal Few, who could then cut wages (and boost debt to make up the difference), and even - and this is mind-blowing! - close down companies and ship jobs overseas, claiming this is efficient! Were the companies owned by the workers themselves, in true social democratic fashion, could this haemorrhaging of our economy have happened? Would workers voluntarily destroy their own incomes and jobs?

of course not.

'our Elites' (pause for ironic belly laugh) have been so blinded by narrow-minded class interest, only interested in "destroying" the working/middle classes in some farcical prehistoric fantasy world almost certainly indoctrinated by the Public schools, that they have run our country into the ground, exporting jobs, destroying real incomes, grinding down the unions, making State schools into mini-prisons, and eroding democratic participation at every turn.

they now claim "no-one saw this coming" - right, sure. No-one realised that an economy based upon ever-increasing debt was going to go belly up at some point? If that IS true, if they truly didn't see it was unsustainable, then they are all so incompetent it boggles the mind. The alternative is quite simple - this IS deliberate, which begs the question - what was the purpose of it?

well, considering the policies that led to the crisis are fundamentally undemocratic...

marymartisius
11 October 2008 at 03:48

Most of this financial crisis was brought on by Freddie & Fannie....Congress believes that EVERYONE in America should have an EQUAL financial situation....therefore, let us distribute the wealth. This is what it will come down to. The Gov't is buying up all of the bad mortgage loans, therefore the gov't will own a huge portion of the private sector. Socialism is coming down the pike. This is deliberate, and many saw it coming, but congress stone walled it, because each congress member was being bribed with millions of $$$ in campaign contributions. The LEFT in congress want Americans to be dependent on Gov't....they are power hungry!!!!!

Cybertiger
11 October 2008 at 08:22

@marymartisius

"Socialism is coming down the pike. "

Amongst all the financial uncertainty, one thing is dead certain - by Christmas, Americans will be singing a new anthem, the

'Battle Hymn of the Neo-Socialist Republic' outside the NYSE.

"The people's flag is palest pink

It's not the colour you might think

White collar workers stand and cheer

The GOP government is here

We'll change the country bit by bit

So nobody will notice it

And just to show that we're sincere

We'll sing The Red Flag once a year"

amanfromMars
11 October 2008 at 09:46

And don't you just love the detailed masterplan to fix everything .....

1. Take decisive action using all available tools to support struggling financial institutions and prevent their failure.

2. Take all necessary steps to unfreeze credit and money markets.

3. Ensure that banks can raise capital from public as well as private sources, in sufficient amounts to re-establish confidence and permit them to continue lending to households and businesses.

4. Ensure that savers' deposit insurance and guarantee programs are robust so savers have confidence in the safety of their deposits.

5. Take action, where appropriate, to restart the mortgage securitisation markets. ... http://tiny.cc/57t9P.

amanfromMars
11 October 2008 at 09:51

And ...

The Illuminati* have lost control of their agenda to subjugate the globe to their pleasure and are in real and present danger for they are, of course, known individuals, with no place to hide.

And those like the hapless Labour puppets prancing about shoring up the system rather than sweeping it away altogether, for that is the abiding cancerous problem [and they know it] will also be less than favourably looked upon. It will be difficult for them to escape a charge of treason/crimes against humanity should they persist in their mindless support of a corrupt, perverse system which puts wealth before people.

One does wonder what the Intelligence Services and the Military are doing with themselves ...... and as for the House of Windsor, well, that is also a present disappointment which does not bode well for its well being and future national affection and respect.

It is difficult not to conclude, with Global Financial Melt Down, that Lead Programming/Intellectual Property is Unfit for Future Purpose, for obviously Hardware and Wealth are available in Spades.

Where are the New Faces/Fresh Blood/Alternative Thinkers/Novel Ideas? Why are we even listening to the same old Has Beens hanging on to their shattered dreams as they sink beneath the waves?

* Now there's an Oxymoron if ever there was one.

Douglas Chalmers
11 October 2008 at 11:54

Well, Brown was certainly "...taking decisive action using all available tools to support struggling financial institutions and prevent their failure..." when he used anti-terror laws against Iceland's banks. It looks like that phrase was put in to justify that - and more of the same for other countries by the G7. Better watch out, Asia!

In other words, siezing other countries' assets may quickly become par for the course for the Neocons. There is nothing they won't try to stay in control - even socialism. It will inevitably work out disastrously in no time and they will take us through a labryinth of lies and deceit and incompetence that Russia and China already spent decades in.

In the meantime, China and Russia will continue to rise as the main capitalist free economies in the world, ha ha. But this is about more of the same, still, as the very people who have created the mess (a) want to justify their position, and (b) are incapable of imagining a real workable alternative. Thus they will resort to legislative control instead of free the free markets they hypocritically once seemed to support..

Carl Jones
11 October 2008 at 12:05

The markets are going to be closed while the crooks rewrite the laws of international finance. In effect, they`ll cook the books and consolidate their power once again. Closing the markets was mentioned by Berlusconi, but he failed to elaborate.....can they risk openning the markets on Monday?

amanfromMars
11 October 2008 at 12:50

"Closing the markets was mentioned by Berlusconi, but he failed to elaborate.....can they risk openning the markets on Monday?"

Can they risk not opening them ..... for that would be an Admission that they have lost Power and Control and are Cooking the Books just like a Bunch of Crooks...... although Crooks are more Honest in their Work.

Cybertiger
11 October 2008 at 13:01

I heard this week that City banks propose to pay out bonuses of several billion pounds this year to their financial traders.

May I politely suggest that in the light of this obscenity, a ‘posse of the people’ be sent out into the City to round ‘em up and bring ‘em in. And thence the traders may be taken to a place of public execution … and dealt with justly.

Carl Jones
11 October 2008 at 14:07

amanfromMars; the speed of failure, the speed of acquisition/merger, designed to hide the books. Creating a new Bretton Woods is all about control. You will note that its London and Washington who are in TOTAL control of this agenda....the Chinese are in there laying down the law. Phase one is almost complete....shareholders, pensions, employees and the public have been robbed, now they are going to change the rules....new game.

If they close the markets, it is a demonstration of power, they could have closed the markets weeks ago when the table was level, now two legs are off, they have control. Its a game and the game has phases and each one achieves specific objectives. The derivitives scam may still unwind even with NEW NWO financial rules, but new rules will determin our future economy and they will further enhance NWO power.

Carl Jones
11 October 2008 at 14:12

Cybertiger; traders make money on falling and rising markets, a traders bonus relates to his/her performance. Of course, the bonus will also be affected by the performance of the said banks entire trading performance, so the bonuses must be paid out. :)

Douglas Chalmers
11 October 2008 at 14:42

The G7 statement - "Fluff. Good fluff but fluff," said Robert Brusca, analyst at FAO Economics. "A pledge of everything (makes it) sound like they are clueless," he added. http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_world_business/vi...

And deals within deals (or before any deals).......

US to remove NKorea from terror blacklist - Paulson said the US was working closely with China and Japan, two of the biggest holders of Treasury bonds, amid the financial crisis. "We are in close coordination and communication with Japan and China and other investors around the world,"

Douglas Chalmers
11 October 2008 at 15:06

Quote: The mass-stampede for the 'EXIT' doors by individual investors trying to salvage anything better than half of the former value of their retirement and investment baskets continued. It was about as frenzied as the sales of home safes at the local hardware store.....

Wanted: Rabbit-Proof Fence - Like, say, bank holidays... Interesting that Italy's Mr. Berlusconi heard it 'on the radio' that the G-7 were considering market holidays at some point in the future...

This weekend's meeting of the " Magnificent (G) Seven" is likely to feature cucumbers on burnt toast and spring water as a side-dish to the heaping bowls of crow to be served. You can forget the caviar. No leader of any country in crisis wants to pull an "AIG spa orgy" at this juncture. The masses are watching. And seething..... http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/20081010/wanted-rabbit-proof...

Gold turned negative -really negative- once again..... Gold for December delivery fell $27.50, or 3.1 percent..... as U.S. stocks continue to slide, large institutional investors have been forced to sell gold and other commodities to meet margin calls and other requirements..... "If stock markets continue their current trend, then there is little doubt that margin call liquidations will continue to negatively impact gold and oil..." http://www.ibtimes.com/bh_articles/20081010/gold-silver-pric...

Cybertiger
11 October 2008 at 17:41

@Jonesy

"Of course, the bonus will also be affected by the performance of the said banks entire trading performance, so the bonuses must be paid out. :)"

It'll be a big bonus for the taxpayer if the crooked traders lost their heads. The taxpayer needs to see a good few severed heads bobbing up and down in the Thames. :) :)

Douglas Chalmers
11 October 2008 at 17:46

Cybertiger, its not necessary to suggest that "...a ‘posse of the people’ be sent..... to round ‘em up and bring ‘em in...". In the USA, not only have there been ongoing dmeonstrations but the McCain political rallies are now turning vicious against anything and anyone they don't like.

Since refusing to shake hands with Obama after the recent debate, the message that the rednecks interpreted was to bring out the noose. Things are going to get wild in the US now - more so than you would want in Britain or anywhere else, uhh http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1008/14479.html

amanfromMars
11 October 2008 at 17:51

"You will note that its London and Washington who are in TOTAL control of this agenda..." .... Carl Jones

11 October 2008 at 14:07

CJ,

It has always been the case, that those in TOTAL control are never known, and those that are visible in the media are just puppets to their Game.

There are some interesting views/analyses here ... http://cryptogon.com/?p=4439

A change now for oil to be traded in a currency other than the dollar ..... for that has allowed Uncle Sam its imported fuel for virtually free .... and it would only be fair to provide that magic facility on a rotational basis to other users, would be a real vote winner globally and really rock the boat.

And here is also something else which has been kept very quiet .... http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,435681,00.html

Carl Jones
11 October 2008 at 19:42

amanfromMars; agreed, it has always been the case, but that doesn`t mean that we should stop beating out the message, The stories surrounding China`s US spying activities have been around for a few years.....the US gets its chips from China.....enough said.LOL

Nilsey105
11 October 2008 at 20:11

Today is Saturday.

Yesterday was Friday. The day the extent to which Lehmans Brothers involvement in the credit default swap business was established.

"The auction set a price for Lehman bonds of 8.625 cents on the dollar. Financial firms that sold credit default swaps, therefore, owe 91.375 cents on the dollar "

The value of Lehmans bonds in total has been equated as being between 200 to 400 billion $. SOMEONE HAS TO PAY.

Glad its not me as i didnt sell any. But for those who did sell them hard poo boys .

They wont be going to Mumbai, Shanghai or Dubai rather it will be BYE BYE as they are taken off to the nearest clink to do their stint.

Tomorrow is Sunday make the most of it whilst you can.

The day after is going to be monday.

One Black bad day.

Fasten yeh seat belts.

writeon
11 October 2008 at 21:13

It'll be 'interesting' to see how Monday and the rest of the week pans out. Maybe they'll be a respite, maybe a continuation of the meltdown, even an acceleration down into the bottomless pit. Where there's room for banks, corporations, countries and even entire systems.

Can capitalism survive another week like the last one? This isn't a 'credit crunch'. It's a crisis of capitalism itself. The subprime crisis, the banking crisis are only ripples on the surface, mere symptoms of far deeper and more profound crisis which has been brewing for decades; massive, structural contradictions ripping the system apart from inside. Now the deep-seated, undrlying problems, breaking through the benign surface gloss of state capitalism and bourgeois democracy. The true nature and character of the system is becoming evident to all, and this will have profound consequences.

The ruling 'elite' aren't so much concerned by the financial consequences of the crisis, they are so rich and so powerful, nothing mere financial crisis can touch them, they will still have collosal fortunes. What concerns them is the political consequences of the crash. How will ordinary people react? Will they just take it, or will they seek retribution and revenge, directing their anger towards those who are responsible for the disaster and the destruction of their dreams and lifestyles? Will people really passively accept that they are being shafted at both ends or will they react spontaneously against the interests and rule of their masters and betters?

Why should ordinary people accept the socialization of the losses of captialism? Why can't the capitalist class pick up the bill themselves? Simply because they aren't stupid. Why should they do it when they can force the politicians to do it for them from the public coffers?

In a way such an immoral, corupt, unjust and destructive system doesn't really deserve to survive in its current form. Perhaps the coming weeks will see it collapse definitively?

Nilsey105
11 October 2008 at 22:07

writeon

"Perhaps the coming weeks will see it collapse finally?

More apt.

Nilsey105
11 October 2008 at 22:09

what comes next i posted last night in another place.

It was after two bottles of red.

What Brown and Darling produced, in the way of financial support fot the banks, this week, was a politcal and economic imperative.

At the political level it gave Brown the opportunity to claw back the lost points in the battle against Cameron. And at the same time show the electorate that he is the man for the job. Not the time for the apprentice to take control of the situation.

At the economic level it had to be shown that the government had the ideas to push the banks into accepting a package they couldnt refuse. If they refuse then the public would turn against them even more than before. If the banks had refused it would have left them open to a situation whereby total nationalisation was a necessity. There would have been no alternative. Brown and Darling i am sure didnt want to take that option. They are not socialists. As Darling said many times , "we are not seeking to control the banks". Pity.

If the measures succeed or not time alone will tell. But i think what happened in the crash of 1929 and the subsequent recession, and the implementation of the NEW DEAL was to only delay till this present collapse of capitalism, the end of capitalism as we have known it.

We are now witnessing the end of one paradigm. If capitalism wants to continue its existence then now is the time for its reinvention. Its time for a new paradigm.

In a civilised society people are expected to behave in a certain manner. Within the present capitalist system, there are certain things that contradict the ethos of a civilised society.. High on the list is greed, avarice, begger thy neighbour, or as the Peter Sellers film implied, fuck you jack i'm allright.

The way foreward now is for the financial sector to be controld in part by the state. Those banks and mutual societies that have not been party to creating the present situation must be given the means to carry on as they have done before. This sector includes the Co-Op Bank, the mutual benefits societies such as Royal London and the Royal Liver and the many smaller building societies. All the others , the high street banks, clearing banks etc have to be culled and brought under state control. The big stick wont change those who run these banks they still believe they will come back and cream the top off yet again. Once bitten twice shy. This is now numerous times bitten and enough is enough.

bimbleigh
12 October 2008 at 00:12

Can we have it now?

It could be the same way it is now. A sunny day, a

family in a restaurant eating hamburgers, CSI on TV,

free elections.

I doesn't have to be snowing and thin fish soup with

no fish.

Come on, let's all join hands and visualise a

Communist America

fairplay
12 October 2008 at 03:15

my biggest worry is what the attitude of the general public will be when they actually realise what they read in the sun and watch on bbc and sky is all lies and propoganda and the elite have been decimating the carcass that is the world economy since this came to the fore. they will be angry, very very angry.

the bilderbergers 3 years ago, as stated on certain "conspiracy"(i call them real news) websites, stated how they would bring the economy down and reshape everything to suit their NWO agenda and be seen as the saviours.

well, gentlemen of the elite, i think your time is coming. unfortunately for you the savings of the councils, police funds etc have disappeared into thin air too. who is going to protect you now and please tell us how you can actually save anything especially your own skins??

fairplay
12 October 2008 at 03:31

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_on_Foreign_Relations

look at the corporate members listed on here. say no more. dont buy anything from these people. that will be a start

writeon
12 October 2008 at 08:19

One of the things I've been wondering about is whether the New Deal and Keynesianism really ended the Great Depression at all, or was the 'solution' the build-up to the second world war? When so much of the US economy became 'socialized' and 'directed'.

The United States became a 'war economy', thoroughly militerized, and this 'cure' continues right up to today.

Currently the United States offficially spends around 650 billion dollars a year on the military. That is about as much of the rest of the world combined. However, the true figure is closer to 1400 billion for 'defence'. This functions as a massive, permanent subsidy to the capitalist system and is on top of all the other collosal subsidies US agriculture and industry receives, year after year.

Obviously one is talking about a form of 'state capitalism' at work here, or even the 'corporate state'. The idea that this massively subsidized system is somehow 'free' and a 'market system' is ridiculous, a fairytale.

Clearly it's highly debatable whether 'capitalism' could actually survive if it had to stand on its own two feet, as it never has, it's difficult to say. Personally I don't think it's possible, not without massive state intervention to nuture and support it in myriad ways.

The New Deal and Keynes are arguably the most 'leftwing' economic strategies that are possible and allowable within the confines of 'liberal democracy'. This in itself is thought provoking, but if this strategy for dealing with the contradictions of capitalism and returning crises, don't actually work, then there is even more to consider and reflect over.

writeon
12 October 2008 at 09:21

Sorry for the rambling nature of the above, but I was trying to grab onto things I don't quite understand, at least not yet.

The point is, what happens is the 'solution' to the current crisis isn't some form of 'Kynes'? Suppose we need a concerted and global answer that means the state moving in to take over capitalism and direct it?

The crisis clearly isn't just confined to the financial markets. That is only was we observe, it's merely on the surface, like froth on a wave. It's the underlying movement and momentum we should be really concerned about, and this has been gathering speed for decades, decades when we've been moving in the wrong direction as a society, constructing a superficially impressive house of cards founded on the creation of debt.

How do we create a 'world government' quickly if that's what it takes to get us moving towards a solution, that is, a concerted and co-ordinated global response to save capitalism.

Carl Jones
12 October 2008 at 10:48

We already have something very close to a world government. The instruments of control are the UN, IMF and World Bank. Strategy/policy are laid out by the CFR, Chatham House, the Bilderberg Group steering and verious foundations/thinktanks.

EVERYTHING IS PLANNED, oftern decades before we see it on the TV news. Look at Hugo Chaves, rigged high energy has allowd Chaves to clear all of South Americas debt, this is preparation so that SA can join NAFT in 10/15 years time.

They like to call it capitalism, but in reallity, it is COMMUNISM with incentives. We are so far over the bell curve of globalisation, that it no longer benefits the NWO. Now they have thrown a very larger spanner in the works so they can rebuild it....quite how its going to look, I don`t know. But it looks like more state control, much more BIG BROTHER.

One must remember that the US/coalition has maintained a vast military force in the Gulf/Middle East for over two years....this force in over and above NWO military requirements for Iraq and Afghanistan.

We had the NWO sanctioned Georgian invasion of South Osettia on the oppenning day of the Beijing Olympics. Putin was not planning to attend, but turned up to give Bush such a verbal thrashing that Chinese TV caught Bush visibly SHAKING.LOL

We now have a situation where US forces are murdering Pakistanies and as a consequence, the Pakistan military are firing at US troops. So there is plenty of fun in the pipe

Cybertiger
12 October 2008 at 11:10

"Obviously one is talking about a form of 'state capitalism' at work here, or even the 'corporate state'. The idea that this massively subsidized system is somehow 'free' and a 'market system' is ridiculous, a fairytale. "

The Emperor is unclothed, Dubya is a nudist ... and Americans can't see that huge Red Flag flying over the White House. Americans are ugly ... and stark naked bonkers.

Camus
12 October 2008 at 13:59

I'll put it in very plain terms.

The planetary economic system has beendrowned

by the literally astronomic amounts of virtual/funny/

monopoly money (strike out as required). These

Billions, no Trillions of dollars earn millions just by

being shipped around the globe, day by day. They

'belong' to banks hedge funds and oil sheiks of all

nations, BUT HAVE NO VALUE ON TERMS OF

GOODS AND SERVICES PRODUCED, SOLD PR

BOUGHT. They are the figment of our imaginations

but they sweep away the real dollars and Pounds as

they race around the world. Until we get these virtual

cash flows under control the people will pay the

price.

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 14:50

"A £516 trillion derivatives 'time-bomb'

the Great Unwind has begun. "

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/a-163516-tri...

Tide, time and the explosion wait for no man

Say no more.

Keir H
12 October 2008 at 15:27

Britain lacks confidence in itself!

With financial storms clarity of understanding starts to form. A better understanding of the inner working of Britain is exposed at this time of trouble. Where money is invested abroad for a few percent more it highlights a complete lack of faith in UK institutions.

We all live in the same country but don’t have a unity of purpose to make it work in Britain. Keeping work here in the UK creates jobs, experience, wealth and a self-sufficient belief in the country to do business. As local businesses keeps a community together with a belief they are helping local people, larger national companies should also keep the UK community functioning, believing it’s good to make it work here in Britain.

The onus has been to make a quick profit at the expense of the medium to long-term investment in non-cash items, such as people, manufacturing, R&D and the well being of the surrounding community.

Companies are the people that work for them, not single isolated entities. They have responsibilities outside the premises as well as inside. Individualism in people as in companies now belongs in the history book as a discredited ethos, along with capitalism, as a failed idea.

We need to belief that Britain can be the first choice for making our country Great again.

writeon
12 October 2008 at 16:14

What concerns me about this crisis is the collosal difference between the size of the 'real economy' and the size of the 'debt economy' that's been conjured forth.

If, as happened in the 1930's, this massively inflated debt economy is deflating to a size that bears a passing relationship to the real economy, a huge ammount of 'wealth' or 'liquidity' will necessarily disappear into the blackhole.

Unfortunately the West has based it's prosperity and economic growth on precisely this hugely inflated debt bubble which has powered the 'real economy' for years. The Greenspan bubble was a reckless and foolish attempt to conjure wealth and growth through the creation of the new, debt economy; an economy based on 'faith' and 'confidence'.

Now it would appear the 'wealth' 'growth' and 'confidence' bubbles have collapsed, dragging everything else down with it. Ripping the growth and wealth out of the system with a real vengence.

What this appears to mean, is that the evaporated 'confidence/debt', because of its size, so much bigger than most people understand, will rip the guts out of the real economy, causing a massive economic slump which cannot be 'saved' no matter what the bourgeois governments attempt. The problem, the swirling debt vortex, swallowing everything in its path, is arguably, simply way too big to manage. The real economy, on which it is loosely based, is just too small to conjure so much 'confidence' out of the ether so quickly to prevent a crash.

It like a giant airship. There's a rip in the side and the gas is rushing out at speed. On the other side we've got our trusted leaders who are frantically and vainly taking turns blow hot air into the tiny valve on the other side of the sinking ship. I think, unfortunately, this attempt is bound to fail.

Carl Jones
12 October 2008 at 16:56

Nilsey105

Thats more than 10 times total global GDP.LOL

Carl Jones
12 October 2008 at 17:21

Will the real world economy go through an equivalent correction to what we see in the deflating debt bubble?

If so, how high will unemployment go? In the 20`s/30`s, credit was limited to a few, sure, folk had trouble making ends meet. Today, we face the prospect of 20% + being dragged through the courts for bad debts, if unemployment rises in proportion to this crisis. This is major social instability....Brown knows this as he`s already said he wants a gentle hand when dealing with mortgage arrears.

If unemployment rises significantly because businesses downsize, or go bust, how is this going to impact on our "just in time economy"? Will food and good become scarce and if they do, will this lead to hyperinflation?

cosmoos
12 October 2008 at 18:06

Is it true that America owes China among others trillions of dollars.In other words China is propping up the American economy?

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 18:47

cosmoos

http://www.breakthematrix.com/BreakTheMatrix/U-S-owes-China-...

click the link

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 18:56

writeon

12 October 2008 at 16:14

"The problem, the swirling debt vortex, swallowing everything in its path, is arguably, simply way too big to manage. "

Your debt vortex is the hidden amount of debt owned by the banks that has been packaged up as derivatives, and mostly of the credit default swap, variety. The amont is only guess work at present, so we are told. Maybe it is.

The Indy article say the, " $516 trillion number is actually only a notional one."

And as Carl jones says thats 10 times global gdp.

A figure thats not of this galaxy.

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 19:13

LMAO

too funny

from the link i posted above; the final line is the fun one lol

"October 3, 2008

According to Ron Paul, a member of the house banking committee, we owe China about 2 & 1/2 trillion American dollars.

China gets American dollars when they sell us stuff made in China. Instead of sitting on the dollars they buy American interest bearing Treasury Bills & Treasury Bonds, which would have different maturity dates. These Gvt. issues can also be rolled over when the maturity date arrives.

It’s a distinct possibility that it may never be paid off or

paid back because the numbers are so high."

If $2.5 trillion is too high a figure to pay back what chance of finding the $516 trillion, PMSL.

As i say not of this galaxy.

writeon
12 October 2008 at 19:27

Guys,

Thanks for the invaluable feedback. As you can see I'm extremely concerned about where we are headed, and I'm trying hard to get my head around some pretty complex financial phenomenon. Why on earth did they create these things? Of course the answer is to make or 'conjure' money out of almost thin air and externalize the debt, packaging it into 'infinity' so that it almost appeared to disappear. Fine, as long as it lasted, but potentially disasterous.

This whole derivatives thing is of collosal size. A gigantic super-nova of debt bigger than the planet. Probably, maybe, at least $500 trillion. If, conservatively, only 10% of it is 'lost' that's still $50 trillion, which is a vast and dire sum, enough to rip the guts out of the entire planet's economy. What's worse is that nobody knows where it is, or who has got it. This adds massive uncertainty to the equation and even less confidence.

These credit default swaps are also real devils. The US alone is supposed to have $50 trillion sloshing around and Lehman Bros alone has $500 billion, if I remember correctly.

It's hard to understand numbers so big and what they mean for the real world, are they merely abstractions, or do they exist and have consequences for the rest of us? They don't just represent 'confidence' though. So much evaporating capital has the power to virtually destroy the world as we know it, if things go badly wrong. Is it too much to think of it as a civilization threatening crisis? I don't know.

I suppose we have to remember that this financial crisis will be followed by a crisis in the real world, just like in the 1930's. How bad will it be? I believe it could well be worse than the Great Depression with unemployment rocketing up to levels that today seem unimaginable, but then only a few weeks ago the idea that the world's financial system was on the verge of total collapse seemed fanciful didn't it?

In many ways are economy is more fragile than it was in the 1930's.

writeon
12 October 2008 at 20:59

To continue. What I mean by a worse situation than the 30's and a more fragile economy, is that we actually have less 'real economy' than we had 80 years ago to fall back on. Today, we live in what some call the post-industrial economy. So much of our industrial base has disappeared abroad. We don't really produce that much anymore. We are reliant on massive quantities of imports to satisfy needs for consumer goods and of course food.

If the real economy 'freezes' like the financial economy has done, which may be the way things go in these circumstances, then we will be in deep, deep, trouble.

Also with so many jobs in the financial services, where one isn't actually producing anything concrete, only moving debt around, and we all know where that has lead us! we risk seeing these 'fragile' jobs vanish extraordinarily quickly. This is already happening in the City and it could get a great deal worse - fast.

In the 30's people had manufacturing skills and could make things and sell and barter with one another. There were communities. There was a working class. There were real trades unions. There were real political parties. There were real politicians. Today so much is merely virtual and based on 'confidance' in the system and collosal ammounts of debt.

If the consumer society collapses under the weight of debt, we'll be in trouble. Imagine our society without massive, debt financed, consumer spending. What would it look like? This may be what we have to look forward to. This is of course just a shot in the dark, but I think it's an intuative guess about what we may be heading for.

Clearly, if this happens we'll have mass unemployment and proablly mass socieal unrest. It's interesting that Bush has called between three and four thousand soldiers back from Iraq as a 'reserve'. In Germany the same thing is happening. Our leaders are ready for every eventuality if the system goes into full meltdown mode.

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 23:15

I agree we are on the road to higher unemployment 2 million by xmas has been predicted.

Full meltdown maybe. Maybe not. My crystal ball is broke at present.

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 23:16

mmm i lost most of my reply

Nilsey105
12 October 2008 at 23:22

Interesting news RBS on close of the ftse on Friday 10/10/08 was worth 12 billion £. Its just, negotiated a £15 billion package with the government. That beggers belief. The government could have bought it lock stock and barrel for the nation for less.

Nilsey105
13 October 2008 at 00:16

writeon what i get from what you are saying is as follows;

"less 'real economy' than we had 80 years ago to fall back on."

No less real economy than we had 30 years ago more like.

The manufacturing base of the nation, the trade union movement and the skilled workforce,

which was second to none, at that time was totally decimated by Thatcher.

She created a pool of unemployed of a true figure approaching FIVE million.

The lack of real jobs meant people were put onto, meaningless "schemes", those who went onto

the sick instead of claiming unemployment were encouraged to claim long term sickness

benefits leading to long term incapacity benefits, new jobs that were being created were to

be found only in the new service sector such as MacDonalds. There were millions of highly

skilled men out on their arses.

Thatcher at the same time, via the BIG BANG, created the freedom for the financial sector to

run amock and virtually do as it pleased.

Nilsey105
13 October 2008 at 00:17

The real economy of creating wealth via the manufature of goods and exporting them had gone

as a nation we now had to import most of what an advanced society required.

Industrials such as the steel industry, and companies like BICC, Marconi, GEC, THORN

virtually vanished overnight.

One of the consequences of the Labour victory at the 1997 election created even more

deregulation for the financial sector of the economy.

Clinton and Greenspan in the USA, in 1999, had deregulated the American financial sector so

that the conditions for the the subprime market could take off.

The British chancellor, Gordon Brown was shadowing the moves of Greenspan his near

equivalent in the US. and so he also changed the rules of financial regulation here in the

UK.

This has now taken us to the introduction of the derivatives market as we now know it and

the introduction of such ingenious tools as credit default swap

Nilsey105
13 October 2008 at 00:29

These new ingenious tool of the derivatives market has taken the money markets onto a level very few people envisaged 10 years ago. They are also totally unsustainable methods of generating legitimate dealings. It doesnt matter if they are moral or ethical they are not legitimate. What idiot buys something he /or/ she doesnt know what the deal contains. And at the same time pays millions for the deal. They are the works of the con man or woman.Phds most of them so the story goes.

I have implied before that the $516 trillion is only the tip if the problem. The black hole is so vast not even "THE MAGICIAN" as the french are calling Gordon Brown can fix this one. lol

sweety
13 October 2008 at 02:52

You could really live the life of a Hobbit in New Zealand, or become a Green in Greenland, but we in the world's most overcrowed island are 14 days away from man eating man!

PS. North America would be able to maintain some sort of civilised existence unlike the rest of the world!

Nilsey105
13 October 2008 at 11:46

Sweety are you on the vodka again?

subho
13 October 2008 at 15:23

why do you fear surrogate recapitalization? One day

you took super profit and now it is time to pay back.

In our India we do not exploit our economy so much

and thus are insulated. Of course we do not enjoy

super profit but we need not any surrogate

recapitalization.

Not USA or UK it is the Indian government and Indian

public sector bank which are least affected.

R Subhranshu

chandernagore

Carl Jones
13 October 2008 at 20:51

UK government debt jumps from 40% to 100%+ of GDP!!

We the people have truely robbed and I fear....believe we are entring a new dark age. No10 has laid down a condition that credit should return quickly to 2007 levels.....this is an impossibility. The dirivatives spring has a long way to uncoil.

The numbers stack up like this. I`m using $ so you can compare with the US.

Germany $683 BILLION

France $486 BILLION

Spain $135.6 BILLION

UK $64 BILLION

Total $1368.6 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!

USofA $700 BILLION

Pleeeeese don`t tell me that EUROPE isn`t bailing out AMERIKA.LOL

writeon
13 October 2008 at 21:11

I'd like to know where the UK money for the bailout is coming from. Over two billion dollars is a lot of money. It doesn't seem like Darling is borrowing it from abroad. Did they really have billions just lying around doing nothing? Have they just conjured it out of the air?

Are we really supposed to accept that trying to reflate a credit bubble of unsustainable size, the 'cause' of our current crisis, by pumping out even more credit, is really the way to solve the problem? Doesn't it seem like more of the same medicine that got us into the whole mess in the first place?

And next time the prudent Gordon Brown tells us that there is no extra funding for schools, pensions, care for the elderly, social housing ect. How seriously should we take him? If billions can be found for the financial system, what about the rest of us?

writeon
13 October 2008 at 21:13

Gosh, I've just remembered. It isn't billions is it? It's trillions - thousands of billions! There's probably a lesson there somewhere.

Nilsey105
13 October 2008 at 21:35

writeon

the money comes from the central bank. in the case of the UK the Bank of England

The government borrows it from the ban of england who then charge the government interest on the loan .

money for old rope.

taghioff.info
13 October 2008 at 21:37

@Carl

"Germany $683 BILLION

France $486 BILLION

Spain $135.6 BILLION

UK $64 BILLION

Total $1368.6 BILLION !!!!!!!!!!!!

USofA $700 BILLION "

Well, if you add that $2 Trillion to the $6 Trillion wasted on the war on Iraq, you get to the $8 T wasted by the neo-liberal superstars.

Now what could you achieve with that money. Hmmm, perhaps if we invested it in alternative energy sources, or on world poverty?

Just think 3B. poor people on the planet, nearly $2600 per poor person thrown away. Those poor people are on $1 a day or less, so that is seven years or so of their wages thrown away (more if you bear in mind that the dollar a day figure is calculated via purchasing power parity.)

But hey, dealing with poverty or climate change, how could that be a priority when compared to defending oil supplies and bankers.

Carl Jones
13 October 2008 at 21:42

writeon; its debt, the printing presses all over the alledged free world are Smokin!lol

It can`t work, all we are seeing is a long slow unwinding....it can`t be long before we see a run on a currency, my guess is that it won`t be the Dollar or Euro, but the Pound and thie will force us into the Euro.....of course, its part of their sick plan.

Carl Jones
13 October 2008 at 22:02

taghioff.info

Yes, but can you remember all the money the Fed, ECB and BofE pumped into the markets over the last two months? By my memory, this was also way over a trillion between them. I remember on one day alone, over $600 billion were washed into the credit markets, not to mention all the central bank lending which was going on....mostly in secret.LOL

Another supprise is the fact that these bankers are quietly retiring.....surely they should be in court facing charges.....

......like Tony Blair, it is clear that NWO players are not subject to the same laws that you and I are.

Carl Jones
13 October 2008 at 22:48

Another point to remember, the price of gold is being manipulated, gold should be much higher, maybe $300 above its current price....another NWO trick.LOL

Douglas Chalmers
14 October 2008 at 02:08

writeon , Oct13 : "...trying to reflate a credit bubble..... next time the prudent Gordon Brown tells us that there is no extra funding for schools, pensions, care for the elderly, social housing ect. How seriously should we take him..."

Carl Jones: "Pleeeeese don`t tell me that EUROPE isn`t bailing out AMERIKA..."

Well, there you have it. The USA has poisoned the world economy. Others have been happy to go along with the greed and excess. But who are they, exactly?

The relatively assetless and social security dependent working class(?) has been dumped and trampled as usual as the middle class(es) race to get their snouts as deep into the trough as possible. Thus, welfare - and fairness - has been pushed aside as too expensive and government spending has been directed towards policies which induce and favor leveraged mortgages and rising housing prices.

The results are the inevitable bubbles in real estate and stocks/shares with the ensuing bubbles in unsustainable debt. It has all been very deliberately made to appear as though it could and would go on forever by politicians rushing to pander to voters' fantasies and illusions. Thus truth has no value to such people and we all eventually ned up reaping the consequences of their pernicious system of manipulating greed and then fear.

Now they want another Bretton Woods 'global' agreement (really only the G7 but maybe their new G14) and that means that we are racing towards the same global outcomes now as then. What happened then (late 1940's)? The cold war, the invasion of Korea, the Suez crisis, the Israel-Egypt war and the Vietnam-American war. In the meantime, the USA repudiated the gold standard and their currency became the global fiat currency by default. Better watch out!

sweety
14 October 2008 at 02:19

Sweety are you on the vodka again?

Fair enough question, what happens when the money runs out? What would happen if money had no value?

How long would the shelves in Tesco stay stocked.?NHS. socialist clones who think High Wycombe, beyond the great sea of Rape- seed oil, is at the edge of the known world, really need to think about this one . Do not worry too much it will never happen!

Riaz Ahmad
14 October 2008 at 19:38

It was a golden opportunity for Europe to come out with an alternative economic system and do away with the current American monopoly money hyperinflated asset bubbles, spending money that does not exist. Europe in servile relationship with USA has failed its citizens.

writeon
14 October 2008 at 20:25

But we don't know that this new, even bigger, bailout, or transfer of wealth from the taxpayer to the financial aristocracy, will work, do we? I think it's far too early to say, that 'we' are out of the woods yet. I don't think it's enough and directed at the wrong part of the system. I think we are nowhere near the end of the crisis, on the contrary. But then I've never been optimistic about the longterm prospects for capitalism.

Nilsey105
14 October 2008 at 22:27

the Lehmans cds has to be paid before the last day of this month £515 bn

that will test how hot the water is

Carl Jones
14 October 2008 at 23:14

UK mortgage lending down 95% over the last year.....UK house prices down 20%...not including September. No tonights BBC Newsnight, they said the banks new capital will go on defaulting motgages.

There is a long way to go, but all this government money is just debt chasing old debt.

BTW, just before Lehman`s went bust, over $400 million was moved off Lehman`s books.....mind boggling corruption.

amanfromMars
15 October 2008 at 19:56

CJ,

Are you trying to tell us that the same old Great Game Players/NWO Acolytes are still in charge, and all that is happening was planned years ago?

I would suggest exactly the opposite and posit that they have lost the plot completely and are in dire need of some out of this world help before the mob arrives at their doors, for their past means of Control through the Scam of the Fractional Reserve Banking System and Money for Nothing Profit and Interest Charges is unravelling daily....... with ever more Magic Invention of Billions from Nowhere handed to Friends who have no Idea how to Spend it Wisely, having swindled their Customers with their exotic derivatives of ...... well actually they were selling nothing at all at an exorbitant price. With money made so easy the question is always going to be why one has to pay for it rather than just collect it for free and for spending .... just like the Banks and Governments are doing

Simple Crooks in Sharp Suits springs to Mind .... and now there is the unedifying and equally perverse and criminal spectacle of puppet governments extending their credit to compound and prolong the felony and deepen their own complicity to destroy the last vestiges of any credibility in their role as public servants.

It was fun while it lasted but there are too many who have been played for suckers for far too long for it not to be engineered and helped to collapse ... but there is a new Regime into Beta Global Control Ready for IT Action. .

We can certainly agree that it is Run in such a Way ..... just like a Big Blue Virtual Machine? However, whenever it is computerised, is it easily hacked wide open. Hug a Hacker and Save the Planet? :-) A little something for the Old Guard to consider for their Survival, meThinks.

Carl Jones
15 October 2008 at 22:47

amanfromMarsWe can agree to disagree on somethings and this is one of them.

Just listen to the MSM...."we didn`t see this coming".....remember, this is a message from the -ankers. Look at the staggering growth in government employees. The greenback printing presses have been toiling for the last 15 years none stop and are now on BONUS.LOL

Just to put the current banking construct into context, we only have to look at the 1930`s. We had the Wall St crash and within a decade, the corporate elite had rebuilt Germany and a Second World War was underway. This led to the Bilderberg creation of the EU and the state of Israel.

The rael elite maybe leaking paper wealth, but they are trading this and consolidating their power.....the big question is, for what?????

amanfromMars
16 October 2008 at 04:58

Here's an interesting Script, CJ ..... http://news.goldseek.com/GoldenJackass/1223569353.php.

And the Past is History, it has no Part in the Future which is decided by Intelligent Beings having a Friendly Chat.

Reginald
16 October 2008 at 08:41

The UK has had enough of private investment. It about time that our leader should buy banks, energy companies and all other national own companies under compulsory purchase orders for the value of actual assets. Next, be realisic and write of non-recoverable debts. For strugging homeowners; mortgages should be frustrated, putting a restriction on their title, charging a small rent. This would being an end to 'global financial crisis' and reward the taxpayers with a profit. In summary, reverse Thatcherism!!

Carl Jones
16 October 2008 at 12:13

amanfromMars

I read bit of your link, but its so disappointing. Jims argument is rather shallow, of course the system is broken...you can not inflict change when things work, or are perfect.

The banks stopped lending all at once....the same problems were there a year ago, they were known 18 months ago and bankers and FR knew two and three years ago.....but they did nothing. It started in August 2007 ticking away and all hell broke after the Beijing Olymipics.....a banker predicted this would happen, TIMING IS EVERYTHING!

I was talking with a South African business man yesterday. He`s in metals and a lot goes to China, he said there were order issues, no lines of credit and contracts were being broken. So I suggested to him that if businesses start going bust, we could see our "just in time" society falling apart. He said "I hadn`t thought of that" and he agreed, "ITS A REAL POSSIBILITY". Food and products could become scarce.....and this on top of the money supply, could lead to HYPERINFLATION.....you will note that the MSM and politicos aren`t talking about this....as its one of their "unforeseen...oh dear, look whats happened now".....never mind, curfew and troops on streets and lets rush ID cards through so we can hand out rations.LOL

I`m an optomist....more stuff will happen tomorrow and I don`t care if its bleak or not, just so long I I see the punches coming, I duck out of the way. There are plenty of MUGS out there who never see anything coming....they read The Telegraph and believe the BBC news....talk about living in the matrix.LOL

Carl Jones
17 October 2008 at 11:30

US banks/financial institutions are borrowing $437.5 billion per day from the US Federal Reserve (Reuters).

I was talking with a lawyer who works with these complicated financial instruments. He reckoned this will go on for at least 5 years.....the NWO is committed to a policy of hyperinflation.

gnuneo
20 October 2008 at 22:13

an interesting article on what is currently happening from 3 years ago:

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/petrov/petrov011706.html

as for the collapse - its going to happen, there is no way of stopping it now. What is important is how we deal with it, and come back out. The best method, without a shadow of a doubt, is to both create new productive companies in new areas (such as windmills, low-loss power transmission lines, insulation for homes, airships etc etc%

gnuneo
20 October 2008 at 22:57

crap - somehow most disappeared in the posting!

The best method, without a shadow of a doubt, is to both create new productive companies in new areas (such as windmills, low-loss power transmission lines, insulation for homes, airships etc etc), and also as the stock market crashes (as all pyramid schemes do eventually, and ours is currently) purchase the shares at the lowest price and then sell them to the workforces - this will raise up the consumption power of the workers, enabling the free market to do its job.

the alternative, cutting wages, would absolutely guarantee the UKs depression will cut far deeper, and last much longer, as people will not be able to consume services, which will lead to further unemployment, which will lead to further cuts in consumption... a *very* bad spiral to be in, that one.

also, the move to a democratic economy, instead of the current feudal one, will be an enormous evolutionary step for our society to take, will boost productivity as self-interest is one of the best long-term motivations, will strengthen our democratic credentials, and most importantly, will largely end this haemorrhaging of British wealth out to tax-havens by multi-nationals and the overly-wealthy, as well as further 'outsourcing'.

the move by Brown to demand the banks repay the tax-payer before they get any dividends was an apparent master-stroke - full respect - however the comment by alex salmond that perhaps some form of mutualisation would be a good goal is definitely worth a mention.

its all still to play for, and there is still a possibility the UK could actually come out of this mess in a stronger position, given some creativity, back-bone, and pro-democratic leanings of our leaders.

oh dear - are things THAT bad?!? ;)

gnuneo
20 October 2008 at 23:15

as for "is this all planned for by the NWO/Illuminati" - i remember the look of absolute terror on Chimpie's face when in that classroom he was informed by his aides that the long-planned for attack on the WTC by members of his cabal had actually occurred - suddenly he realised it was not just a game, and that he and they had embarked upon a journey they didn't know the end of, although they knew certain probable outcomes, and had the ability to influence matters in certain directions. The same is true now - the events have happened, the dice are rolling, but they do not know how matters will turn out, and there is almost certainly disagreement even amongst the world's elite as to how to try to manage these events.

will leaders such as Brown turn to social democracy and rebuild upon the basis of classical liberalism, or will they turn to technological authoritarianism and Fascism? Will the People blame the poorest and weakest (minorities, the unemployed, the disabled), or will they march upon the gated communities of the economic Vampires? Will militarism become the order of the day as in George Orwell's nightmare vision of 1984, or will peaceful co-operatism, capitalist partnerships in a free market democratic structure be adopted, vis a vis Denmark & modern Scandinavia?

these are factors they simply cannot know, just as 'we, the People' cannot really know who to trust (although who NOT to trust is generally quite obvious).

this isn't a game people, nor are the rules set out in concrete, nor are the outcomes predetermined - this is LIFE, and we have (to some extent) free-will to choose the paths we will go down, and which paths we will let ourselves be led down.

the only thing that is certain about all this, is that at some point in the past, we were cursed by someone Chinese! ;)

(we are living in Interesting times... )

Carl Jones
21 October 2008 at 21:27

I agree that ape brain swallowed hard (choked when he said "I saw the plane hit the WTC....the 2nd tower hadn`t been hit and nothing had been on TV, so he viewed from a CIA link to his limo?) and thought, "here we go".....but in reallity, everything has gone according to plan in respect of 9/11, the sham war on terror, Iraq and Afghanistan. There are only two incidences which touched the publics phripheral vision and even then, 99% missed it.

The shooting of Nikola Calipari in Baghdad Airport which led to Goldman Sachs funding the Communists who despatched Berlusconi from power and the shooting down of the RAF C130 killing 70+, of which 60 were SAS....those who must be silenced. There are others construct which I could mention, like the SAS terrorists dressed as Arabs in Basra and more, but on balance, its gone to plan......

.....and please remember, I class the terror scam and Iraq/Afghanistan as phase one, we are now into phase two, the economic crash....how many more phases there are, I don`t know. But I`ll make a prediction, the show will go on and its only just begun.LOL

Carl Jones
21 October 2008 at 22:04

I was talking with a Russian business man yestertday. I had to converse through his interpreter. We did chitchat on Putin, South Ossetia and then moved onto the current economic construct.....well, most of you know my views, that its been designed, hacking the financial systems and I blamed the Western elite. He asked "why"? I reminded him that the last time this happened (1929), we were in a NWO constructed 2nd WW by 1939. I pointed out that share holders, employees and the public were being robbed. I pointed out that the financial contraction was a consolidation of elte (NWO) power....now corporations are selling off parts of their businesses, just to raise cash....and they are selling low.....so who is buying? Who has the cash to buy? I pointed out that our FREE MSM (LOL) were reporting the losses and the selling....but were not reporting the BUYERS (cash rich).LOL

The Russian by-passed his interpreter and said in English/strong Russian accent "you have a very interesting point of view....through expression and communication, we can change the world. In my case just a bit, but if we all do it, we can have an effect. One of the reasons why Hitler rose to power relatively unchallenged, is that Germans failed to express their views through simple communication, like simple talking.

Britain is moving into a very dark Big Brother society (David Davis and David Icke google Big Brother), if we don`t start doing something, then we and our children will have to ride this facist wave until it crashes (if it does) and then pick ourselves up and start over again.

BTW, I really can`t get the NS position on Big Brother, its like they are in on it....maybe the NS is an MI6 front like "Popular Mechanics" is a CIA front.LOL

gnuneo
23 October 2008 at 22:27

the NS ownership and editors must be receiving quite a bit of flak for allowing this level of commenting, but i actually think they are fighting to allow it (some of them at least) because they find it so extraordinarily interesting. There are many who post here who openly speak their minds, the quality of the commentating is peerless.

they really ARE being journalists, and are fighting for free speech. And no doubt being occasionally heartily amused as well. ;)

some of the articles are written by people with an agenda to increase or hide their control of others (us), its usually obvious, but all this is also data that a good editor will allow - for those that can decode the language, it gives an insight into their thinking. Also, its important to know what they're up to!

i think we should just be grateful the NS gives this platform, and not look to tie them into the Great Conspiracy. Have you read 'Prometheus Rising' by Robert Anton Wilson? (non-fiction). In it he warns that whatever we look for, we find. Medieval catholic fanatics sought the 'Devil' everywhere - unsurprisingly, they found evidence of Devilishness everywhere they looked!

its a more interesting book than that however, and i guess you get the point. ;)

"I pointed out that our FREE MSM (LOL) were reporting the losses and the selling....but were not reporting the BUYERS "

indeed, as the saying goes - "Follow the Money". Many of these shadowy groups that are purchasing up the companies from the stock market have been doing it for years - and if i were to make a guess, completely a guess, i would possibly be willing to bet many of them pre-acted on the various crisis, pulling their shares before the recent crash etc.

gnuneo
23 October 2008 at 22:33

"One of the reasons why Hitler rose to power relatively unchallenged, is that Germans failed to express their views through simple communication, like simple talking."

yes. Simple, open and honest communication is what breaks down fear, removes barriers, and is the opposite of Fascism, or any form of Totalitarianism. Have you watched 'Bowling for Columbine' again recently, about fear and what it does to people? Very well worth it if not.

the Icke vid was good, especially the bits about David Davis & the director of Liberty (i would need to see some documented evidence about that though!), very interesting viewpoint he has.

Carl Jones
25 October 2008 at 01:58

gnuneo, come off it... if there is any tolerance to my dissent and others (questionable), then they do it for intelligence. In another of your comments you question the grand global conspiracy....do you suppose there are folk in Vauxhall who are having second thoughts about their SIS agenda?

On tonights BBC Newsnight we were told its not a problem within the the system....the SYSTEM is the problem....the SYSTEM being the NWO. The pressure is building within the system, there will be casualties....those who have remained quiet in the past will now start to ask serious question about the NWO. This will no doubt bring on the next scam...1929-1938....2008-2016...maybe sooner (2012 ZION. 2102).

I`m not that religious, but I did go to Sunday School and there is one thing I will NEVER let go of, I will not walk by on the other side. The present level of fear has eclipsed all that has gone before in human history. I spotted the present construct years ago and was posting it on the BBC Today message boards. Today there are many constucts in the pipe, some are simmering. If you think things are bad now, you ain`t seen nothing yet. I`d like to think my instincts will tell me whats coming. The NS will do whatever their masters tell them. I believe I will soon be banned. The internet in dying...the NWO is/will force people into the local halls, at this point, they will start to lose control.

I was talking with a banker today....he thinks the ex CEO of Lehman`s should be in prison for the rest of his life....this is the middle tree rot....when the middle classes are willing to BURN their bosses.

I am well aware that the SIS uses forums like this one to judge the mood of the people. I remember the Northeast schools who were questioning young children about the war on terror and specifically what their parents thought.LOL I wonder how the courts are going to cope....Brown is running scared over mortgage default, could be blood on the streets.

gnuneo
26 October 2008 at 16:56

the Dice are rolling. Stay calm. We are the front-line of those who will be 'removed', but we are also the front-line of those who are offering survival possibilities, both for the majority, and also the majority of the 'security' services'. Our lives are less important than the survival of the Human Race itself, and if spent in the service of continued Mankind, well spent. Don't be afraid. We CAN still come back from the brink, even if we do not get to see it ourselves.

Carl Jones
26 October 2008 at 19:37

gnuneo, thank you for my unpostive prospects.LOL All I need is a basebal.LO

BTW, like Heider and Di, my car is fly by wire, so its DEAD easy.LOL