UK Politics

How Britain wages war

Published 10 July 2008

The military has created a wall of silence around its frequent resort to barbaric practices, including torture, and goes out of its way to avoid legal scrutiny

Five photographs together break a silence. The first is of a former Gurkha regimental sergeant major, Tul Bahadur Pun, aged 87. He sits in a wheelchair outside 10 Downing Street. He holds a board full of medals, including the Victoria Cross, the highest award for bravery, which he won serving in the British army.

He has been refused entry to Britain and treatment for a serious heart ailment by the National Health Service: outrages rescinded only after a public campaign. On 25 June, he came to Down ing Street to hand his Victoria Cross back to the Prime Minister, but Gordon Brown refused to see him.

The second photograph is of a 12-year-old boy, one of three children. They are Kuchis, nomads of Afghanistan. They have been hit by Nato bombs, American or British, and nurses are trying to peel away their roasted skin with tweezers. On the night of 10 June, Nato planes struck again, killing at least 30 civilians in a single village: children, women, schoolteachers, students. On 4 July, another 22 civilians died like this. All, including the roasted children, are described as "militants" or "suspected Taliban". The Defence Secretary, Des Browne, says the invasion of Afghan istan is "the noble cause of the 21st century".

The third photograph is of a computer-generated aircraft carrier not yet built, one of two of the biggest ships ever ordered for the Royal Navy. The £4bn contract is shared by BAE Systems, whose sale of 72 fighter jets to the corrupt tyranny in Saudi Arabia has made Britain the biggest arms merchant on earth, selling mostly to oppressive regimes in poor countries. At a time of economic crisis, Browne describes the carriers as "an affordable expenditure".

The fourth photograph is of a young British soldier, Gavin Williams, who was "beasted" to death by three non-commissioned officers. This "informal summary punishment", which sent his body temperature to more than 41 degrees, was intended to "humiliate, push to the limit and hurt". The torture was described in court as a fact of army life.

The final photograph is of an Iraqi man, Baha Mousa, who was tortured to death by British soldiers. Taken during his post-mortem, it shows some of the 93 horrific injuries he suffered at the hands of men of the Queen's Lancashire Regiment who beat and abused him for 36 hours, including double-hooding him with hessian sacks in stifling heat. He was a hotel receptionist. Although his murder took place almost five years ago, it was only in May this year that the Ministry of Defence responded to the courts and agreed to an independent inquiry. A judge has described this as a "wall of silence".

A court martial convicted just one soldier of Mousa's "inhumane treatment", and he has since been quietly released. Phil Shiner of Public Interest Lawyers, representing the families of Iraqis who have died in British custody, says the evidence is clear - abuse and torture by the British army is systemic.

Shiner and his colleagues have witness statements and corroborations of prima facie crimes of an especially atrocious kind usually associated with the Americans. "The more cases I am dealing with, the worse it gets," he says. These include an "incident" near the town of Majar al-Kabir in 2004, when British soldiers executed as many as 20 Iraqi prisoners after mutilating them. The latest is that of a 14-year-old boy who was forced to simulate anal and oral sex over a prolonged period.

"At the heart of the US and UK project," says Shiner, "is a desire to avoid accountability for what they want to do. Guantanamo Bay and extraordinary renditions are part of the same struggle to avoid accountability through jurisdiction." British soldiers, he says, use the same torture techniques as the Americans and deny that the European Convention on Human Rights, the Human Rights Act and the UN Convention on Torture apply to them. And British torture is "commonplace": so much so, that "the routine nature of this ill-treatment helps to explain why, despite the abuse of the soldiers and cries of the detainees being clearly audible, nobody, particularly in authority, took any notice".

Arcane rituals

Unbelievably, says Shiner, the Ministry of Defence under Tony Blair decided that the 1972 Heath government's ban on certain torture techniques applied only in the UK and Northern Ireland. Consequently, "many Iraqis were killed and tortured in UK detention facilities". Shiner is working on 46 horrific cases.

A wall of silence has always surrounded the British military, its arcane rituals, rites and practices and, above all, its contempt for the law and natural justice in its various imperial pursuits. For 80 years, the Ministry of Defence and compliant ministers refused to countenance posthumous pardons for terrified boys shot at dawn during the slaughter of the First World War. British soldiers used as guinea pigs during the testing of nuclear weapons in the Indian Ocean were abandoned, as were many others who suffered the toxic effects of the 1991 Gulf War. The treatment of Gurkha Tul Bahadur Pun is typical. Having been sent back to Nepal, many of these "soldiers of the Queen" have no pension, are deeply impoverished and are refused residence or medical help in the country for which they fought and for which 43,000 of them have died or been injured. The Gurkhas have won no fewer than 26 Victoria Crosses, yet Browne's "affordable expenditure" excludes them.

An even more imposing wall of silence ensures that the British public remains largely unaware of the industrial killing of civilians in Britain's modern colonial wars. In his landmark work Unpeople: Britain's Secret Human Rights Abuses, the historian Mark Curtis uses three main categories: direct responsibility, indirect responsibility and active inaction.

"The overall figure [since 1945] is between 8.6 and 13.5 million," Curtis writes. "Of these, Britain bears direct responsibility for between four million and six million deaths. This figure is, if anything, likely to be an underestimate. Not all British interventions have been included, because of lack of data." Since his study was published, the Iraq death toll has reached, by reliable measure, a million men, women and children.

The spiralling rise of militarism within Britain is rarely acknowledged, even by those alerting the public to legislation attacking basic civil liberties, such as the recently drafted Data Com muni cations Bill, which will give the government powers to keep records of all electronic communication. Like the plans for identity cards, this is in keeping what the Americans call "the national security state", which seeks the control of domestic dissent while pursuing military aggression abroad. The £4bn aircraft carriers are to have a "global role". For global read colonial. The Ministry of Defence and the Foreign Office follow Washington's line almost to the letter, as in Browne's preposterous description of Afghanistan as a noble cause. In reality, the US-inspired Nato invasion has had two effects: the killing and dispossession of large numbers of Afghans, and the return of the opium trade, which the Taliban had banned. According to Hamid Karzai, the west's puppet leader, Britain's role in Helmand Province has led directly to the return of the Taliban.

Loans for arms

The militarising of how the British state perceives and treats other societies is vividly demonstrated in Africa, where ten out of 14 of the most impoverished and conflict-ridden countries are seduced into buying British arms and military equipment with "soft loans". Like the British royal family, the British Prime Minister simply follows the money. Having ritually condemned a despot in Zimbabwe for "human rights abuses" - in truth, for no longer serving as the west's business agent - and having obeyed the latest US dictum on Iran and Iraq, Brown set off recently for Saudi Arabia, exporter of Wahhabi fundamentalism and wheeler of fabulous arms deals.

To complement this, the Brown government is spending £11bn of taxpayers' money on a huge, pri vatised military academy in Wales, which will train foreign soldiers and mercenaries recruited to the bogus "war on terror". With arms companies such as Raytheon profiting, this will become Britain's "School of the Americas", a centre for counter-insurgency (terrorist) training and the design of future colonial adventures.

It has had almost no publicity.

Of course, the image of militarist Britain clashes with a benign national regard formed, wrote Tolstoy, "from infancy, by every possible means - class books, church services, sermons, speeches, books, papers, songs, poetry, monuments [leading to] people stupefied in the one direction". Much has changed since he wrote that. Or has it? The shabby, destructive colonial war in Afghanistan is now reported almost entirely through the British army, with squaddies always doing their Kipling best, and with the Afghan resistance routinely dismissed as "outsiders" and "invaders". Pictures of nomadic boys with Nato-roasted skin almost never appear in the press or on television, nor the after-effects of British thermobaric weapons, or "vacuum bombs", designed to suck the air out of human lungs. Instead, whole pages mourn a British military intelligence agent in Afghanis tan, because she happens to have been a 26-year-old woman, the first to die in active service since the 2001 invasion.

Baha Mousa, tortured to death by British soldiers, was also 26 years old. But he was different. His father, Daoud, says that the way the Ministry of Defence has behaved over his son's death convinces him that the British government regards the lives of others as "cheap". And he is right.

www.johnpilger.com

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85 comments from readers

Claddach
10 July 2008 at 10:31

John Pilger notoriously has a tendency to exaggerate and overstate EVERY case on EVERY subject. This is not investigative reporting. It is bending the facts to the ideological prescriptions of a creed and reducing journalism to spin and an equally daft determination to go into reverse spin just to make partisan political snipes at the the UK and the USA. That's why Pilger opens himself up to sneers about the verb 'to Pilger' which Auberon Waugh defined as the determination to dredge up facts that fit it with a predetermined agenda.

This failure in Pilger accounts for why he he rationalises and pays scant attention to any abuse of power or potential abuses of power if it it done in the name of direct democracy or in challenging the power of 'the West' by which he means primarily the USA.

Pilger (coined by Auberon Waugh)

verb. To destroy facts in a 'John Pilger' fashion, to 'pillage' the truth, poor or no fact checking, wild accusations, conspiracy theories etc. or "to present information in a sensationalist manner to reach a foregone conclusion"

sketchley
10 July 2008 at 11:05

claddach

Typical criticism of Pilger from yet another establishment lacky who provides no facts or examples to back up the point of view.. What is your opinion based on? Gut feeling or facts? If its facts provide them, if its a gut feeling a visit to the toilet might alleviate it., and spare the the rest of this insufferable bullshit.

tangogirl
10 July 2008 at 11:47

May I re-iterate maryb's sentiment...

Claddach
10 July 2008 at 12:10

Hi tangogirl, who or what is marby's and where is marby's sentiment? And by the way reiterate is not hyphenated. And it means to repeat, often excessively. Is that what you mean. Somehow? Somewhere?

And sketchley old horse, lackey is spelt thus. Also, do you know what an apostrophe is? Or, in fact, does. Simply awful grammar. By any chance did go to Marlborough College or summat.

Jonny Mac
10 July 2008 at 12:12

Another torrent of propoganda from Pilger. Claddach, you establishment lackey you, I couldn't agree more. Just a few points:

1. Just because civilians (including children) have been killed by bombs does not mean the war in Afghanistan is not a noble cause. Cf WWII.

2. The Williams case has garnered such publicity precisely because it is so rare.

3. "British soldiers, he says, use the same torture techniques as the Americans and deny that the European Convention on Human Rights, the Human Rights Act and the UN Convention on Torture apply to them. And British torture is "commonplace": so much so, that "the routine nature of this ill-treatment helps to explain why, despite the abuse of the soldiers and cries of the detainees being clearly audible, nobody, particularly in authority, took any notice".

Unbelievably, says Shiner, the Ministry of Defence under Tony Blair decided that the 1972 Heath government's ban on certain torture techniques applied only in the UK and Northern Ireland."

This is just plain wrong. There was discussion as to whether as a matter of law ECHR as implemented by HRA extends outside the UK, and if so, to what extent. This has been litigated. This is NOT the same as a green light to ill treatment, which has never been given.

And Pilger, that 26 year old intelligence officer that you treat with such contempt was a braver and better person than you could ever hope to be.

JK 10 July 2008 at 12:54

Claddach cannot answer Sketchley's simple questions so, of course, s/he resorts to abuse.

ruth
10 July 2008 at 13:31

A brilliant article. If only other media would have the guts to publish the truth: the truth which so many people are shying away from and this includes Christian church leaders who espouse we are all equal in the eyes of God. Their failure to condemn the government, the army, the USA, Israel makes them complicit in the acts of barbarity on our fellow humans. We are becoming non-human, drones, denying compassion , processed into having to have things and terrified of loss, frightened to take the lead in condemnation.

ruth
10 July 2008 at 13:43

I find comments sometimes more telling than the actual article or blog, which if sensitive to the government is commentated in a certain manner.

The writer is usually demeaned or smeared.(Claddach)

A red herring is introduced (tangogirl)

A petty remark is made to divert.(Claddach)

Untruths (Jonny Mac)

Emotive issue brought in (Jonny Mac)

Carl Jones
10 July 2008 at 13:54

I feel ashamed to be British. The government/military use every media opportunity to falsely promote the British military as noble, law abiding servants of the British public....

....it is CLEAR that the British public are funding one of the largest crime sindicates (MI6 drug running in Afghanistan) on Earth and whats more, these criminals operate with no threat of prosecution, apart from token sacrifices.

Remember the US Warthog tankbuster plane which hit a highly marked British military convoy? The MSM made a big hoo-ha about about the British military loss.....but this was a decoy from wider and more horrific crimes against Iraqi`s from the same plane.

This was caually and tokenly disclosed on the BBC Today programme; before the British convoy was hit, the US Warthog plane had been attacking civilian targets for several hours....as in the British MSM, they kept the focus on the US pilots....but pilots only hit the targets which are designated to them. This is done by US military command on the ground in Iraq and they rely on forces on the ground with clear sight, to provide the coordinates.....were these ground forces regular US military? Were they Dick Cheney`s hired guns? Or maybe it was the SIS trying to create constructs towards an ongoing political agenda?

The fact is, many, many senior US military commanders in Iraq and in real time based in the US, allowed this US Warthog plane to attack civilian targets FOR HOURS prior to the British convoy being hit.

Of course, many upstanding military personnel have been murdered in alledged accidents, or simply done in while they slept....Americans and British alike.

I don`t know what you other commentors know, but taking an average knowledge based on good attention to the MSM....go away and pretend you are going to make a movie, so big it up for the paying public....then multiply that by 10 and you might be getting close to the horror unleshed by Bush and Blair`s war crimes.

You might want to ask, why has it been so brutal?

Well, JP has written a lot on the 1,000,000 Iraqi`s mudered by US/UK forced UN sanctions, Margaret Hassan was a British witness to these crimes, she was a witness to coalition bombing of Iraqi civilians during the sanctions years and this is why Margaret Hassan and others like Berg and Bigley were murdered by the West because of the problems they could cause. The West has death squads in Iraq and Afghanistan removing potential problems...this is on top of the targetting of unembedded journalists by the NWO.

When you start telling lies like the sham war on terror and fake the evidence for war in Iraq and Afghanistan, you can never stop telling lies. We now shoot members of the public in the head, we are all guilty untill you can prove your innocence, we are expected to spy on one another, children who crave adult status are targetted by the government with big brother ID cards, airport passengers using iris recognition get through 20 minutes quicker....why can`t passports be machine read?lol

Britain and Amerika are becoming as sinister and as evil Stalin`s Russia....people already get wasted in the woods by the state!lol

Listen very hard to David Davis. Because if things continue on their current trend, David Davis could become a popular living legend, just look what has happened in 7 years!!

Carl Jones
10 July 2008 at 13:55

ruth...now me please. I don`t want to be left out.LOL

udigrudi
10 July 2008 at 14:28

So you found five faults which can be vaguely tied to the British military, most of which aren't faults of the military.

I agree that the Gurkha, and others like him, should have been given much better treatment. Even Cherie Blair was suing on their behalf at one point.

And the invasion of Afghanistan is similar to the conflicts in which the Gurkhas would have willingly helped us with.

I agree that torture and ill treatment of soldiers (and civilians) is wrong, and I would love to one day see a world in which no innocent person suffers.

Many of the things mentioned here are beyond the military's control. They weaken the overall point.

The anger behind the article is clear, but the writer's intentions are vague. Torture is horrific, but its effect is greatly diluted and self-parodies with the lesser injustices and complaints.

ruth - The comments are more telling than the actual article because at least we know what's being said.

Some of these journalists start talking gibberish after they win awards or publish best sellers. (Others win awards or publish best sellers because the judges agree with the gibberish).

Jonny Mac
10 July 2008 at 14:38

Ruth - please identify the "untruths" and "emotive issue" in my comment.

pugnax
10 July 2008 at 15:06

Pilger has his faults, but they are mostly stylistic. His more vehement critics here seem amazingly shallow and snotty when you consider they form part of the readership of a sophisticated publication like NS. Ruth has made some excellent points. BTW, Claddach, although the practice of hyphenating some prefixes (to-morrow, co-operate, re-iterate, etc.) has fallen into disuse, it is not a very cogent point to make. Indeed it is very silly.

Afrasiab
10 July 2008 at 15:10

British soldiers were involved in stealing money from the Safe at the Hotel Baha Mousa worked at. An Iraqi police officer was called and he reported the soldiers to their senior officer, who is alleged to have slapped the soldiers responsible.

The British soldiers then retaliated by rounding up some of the staff at the hotel, and subjecting them to torture. The Iraqi Police officer who reported the soldiers originally was Baha Mousa’s father, and it is no coincidence that out of those tortured the only one murdered was Baha Mousa.

Also as the vultures, BP et al, land in Iraq to steal its resources even the most naïve or stupid amongst the British population can no longer deny that the attack on Iraq was all about OIL.

DarylS
10 July 2008 at 15:47

Claddach, you know nothing about John Pilger. If you did, and looked at where he has been, and what he has reported on you would realise he has more courage than you can even compliment, and shooting Muslims is not courageous. You are an idiot!

DarylS
10 July 2008 at 15:48

contemplate, not compliment. Before you get all clever on my arse.

DarylS
10 July 2008 at 15:49

Hi tangogirl, who or what is marby's and where is marby's sentiment? And by the way reiterate is not hyphenated. And it means to repeat, often excessively. Is that what you mean. Somehow? Somewhere?

And sketchley old horse, lackey is spelt thus. Also, do you know what an apostrophe is? Or, in fact, does. Simply awful grammar. By any chance did go to Marlborough College or summat.

STARTING A SENTENCE WITH 'AND' . GRAMMATICAL GENIOUS YOU!

Jonny Mac
10 July 2008 at 16:26

Take your meds, Daryl, for goodness' sake.

harp
10 July 2008 at 17:21

To jonny,

"Just because civilians (including children) have been killed by bombs does not mean the war in Afghanistan is not a noble cause. Cf WWII."

First, Afghanistan war is not comparably to world war two, lets make the comparison work...lets say the united states armed and funded a war in Germany against Russia (Because we don't like commies) for a decade which left the country devastated, then left a bunch of fanatics, who they armed (they made sure to arm and give money to the worst ones, ones who throw acid into womens faces and so on.), then after another decade, some lonely bunch of reactionaries decided to bomb America, and incidentally they were located in Germany. So they decided to invade the country regardless of whether they gave up the "terrorists to justice" or not. Yeah that would make more comparable. I think you can deduce why it wasn't a noble cause, because there is nothing noble about it, only that its destroying a nation and using it for America's and NATO's own political ends. killing civilians is the other non noble attribute of the war.

"The Williams case has garnered such publicity precisely because it is so rare."

He listed many more cases just in case you missed it

"They have been hit by Nato bombs, American or British, and nurses are trying to peel away their roasted skin with tweezers. On the night of 10 June, Nato planes struck again, killing at least 30 civilians in a single village: children, women, schoolteachers, students. On 4 July, another 22 civilians died like this. All, including the roasted children, are described as "militants" or "suspected Taliban"."

also heres a website that also gives some interesting legal perspective

http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/september11/ihlqna.htm#lawful

3. Read this...

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/11/28/afghan14684.htm

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/10/30/afghan14475.htm

There's a Reason that Human Rights Watch is beseeching the world leading western powers because the so called civilized western world seems to take for granted rights of civilians and the accused, which they are so eager to shove in the face of the non-civilized world.

sincerely,

harp

its also great to see Claddach gone and hushed.

knave
10 July 2008 at 19:28

1. Just because civilians (including children) have been killed by bombs does not mean the war in Afghanistan is not a noble cause. Cf WWII.

So you think Afghanistan is a noble cause and can be compared to WW2. Interesting.

2. The Williams case has garnered such publicity precisely because it is so rare.

Not as rare as you think. Also there are many cases that occur in a war zone which are far worst

Unbelievably, says Shiner, the Ministry of Defence under Tony Blair decided that the 1972 Heath government's ban on certain torture techniques applied only in the UK and Northern Ireland."

Come on Jonnymac, don't be niave.

And Pilger, that 26 year old intelligence officer that you treat with such contempt was a braver and better person than you could ever hope to be.

How do you know ? Have you met both of them.

ruth
10 July 2008 at 20:38

If we don't actively resist the behaviour of 'our' government then we will be complicit in their acts and have to endure the guilt and shame as the German people have had to. Our position is similar but we bear more responsibility because the murder, torture and the theft is in front of our eyes.

harp
10 July 2008 at 21:26

Thats exactly the point, thank you ruth. Responsibility can be shared, certainly now is not the time to adhere to apologist positions. Anyone who protests or stands contrary to doctrine, like Mr. Pilger, ought to be applauded . And when it comes to these enormous geo-political conflicts, states especially share responsibility for the repercussions of these conflicts. I am not saying that the U.S. shares responsibility because its a superpower... though it would be valid, given all the abilities and influence one has as a superpower. But (and this is more of statement for those like Jonny) there is overwhelming evidence, that these so called evil-doers-sunni extremists, were active American allies, even till this day. When it comes to the Shia, the United States has an equally ruthless record in suppressing national movements in their countries and supporting dictators. Now such a policy has only one result, the aggrandizing of reactionaries. The latter is not a truism granted, but its easily seen especially in European history that the result of suppression of nationalism leads to terrorism, this any historian can tell you. Now the actions of terrorists aren't justified, but there formation however is understandable. The only conclusion then is to as a rational people, coerce our governments, to overcome the ultimate fear of the western world, mostly the USA, of local indigenous movements, the real enemy of the contemporary state.

JC2
10 July 2008 at 21:57

hahaha. Damn I have been out all day and missed all the fun. Gee Claddach is a very good speller isn't he. Well done Claddach. Can you please check this post of mine for any errors? Thanks mate. Appreciate that.

And Jonny Mac why on earth have not answered the question that I have posed to you on a number of occasions over the past two weeks. Once again, that question is this:

Can you please show me a quote from John's work where he describes himself as left-wing.

C'mon Jonny Mac. You can do it, pal. It's a simple question with an even simpler answer. Yes or no?

JC2

ps. oh, and here's my facebook page again if anyone is interested. I need all the friends I can get. Pwease join me.

www.facebook.com/people/Matthew_J_Costigan/1311877403

pps. Hey, where's Polya?

JC2
10 July 2008 at 21:59

Oh yeah and you guys should check out what's happening over at medialens.org. Those boys have got The Times in a real tiz. DISCOMBOBULATION. hahaha. Tata.

JC2

Pierre
11 July 2008 at 03:49

To suppose that the tactics of the military are unique to this generation is absurd, Its just that there is far more coverage now than ever before and the hypocrisy is available for everyone to see.

cpark3r
11 July 2008 at 05:06

Afghanistan has been a warzone since its invasion by the Soviet Union 28 years ago. The current NATO involvement is a relatively short chapter in the story of these people's suffering.

And while the Russians are to blame for starting this war its is the fault of the US that conflict has continued in that region for so long and ultimately for the rise of the Taleban itself. It was only after 9/11 that the US switched from supporting the Taleban to the Northern Alliance - the side formerly supported by the Soviets.

So its really hard to see where there could be any honor or nobility in this war. However I do feel we do have a duty to stabilize this country. After all this time, that is the only good thing that could come out of nearly thrity years of the great game being played at the price of Afghanistan.

Unfortunately force is the only way this is going to happen and there is a terrible human cost to that. However unlike the conflicts of the past there is a real motivation on the part of NATO to stabilize Afghanistan in its own self interest.

I share Pilgers disgust for war and I like him am disgusted by those the revel in the heroics of battle. But, I think we shouldn't lose sight of our obligation to see this through.

Gideon Polya
11 July 2008 at 07:16

Excellent article by John Pilger. However the overall situation is actually far, far worse than John Pilger indicates - the awful crimes he describes involve violence but the horrendous crime that is generally unreported in the Mainstream media of the Western Murdochracies is the non-violent excess death (non-violent avoidable death) of millions in UK-US-occupied countries due to deliberate, war criminal non-supply of life-sustaining requisites demanded of Occupiers by the Geneva Convention.

By way of example, UNICEF and UN Population Division data indicate that the "annual death rate" is 6.2% for under-5 year old infants in US-UK-NATO-Australia-occupied Afghanistan - as compared to 10.2% for Australian prisoners of war of the Japanese in World War 2 (for which crime responsible Japanese generals were tried and hanged as the vilest of war criminals) (see "Top US lawyer and UNICEF data reveal Afghan Genocide: http://www.countercurrents.org/polya080208.htm ).

JC2
11 July 2008 at 08:31

G'day Gideon. Nice of you to join us. Hope you are well. Oh, and that is a very good point you made, Pierre.

Best wishes,

JC2

ps. Why hasn't anyone joined me yet? Was it something I said?

www.facebook.com/people/Matthew_J_Costigan/1311877403

Jonny Mac
11 July 2008 at 09:24

knave, harp -

I enjoy these exchanges, but blimey, trying to argue with you is like nailing jelly to the ceiling. I made a simple point: let's try it again. Pilger says (a) civilians, including children have been killed in Afghanistan and then (b) refers mockingly to Des Browne describing it as a war in support of a noble cause. The inference he invites us to draw is that a war in which civilians and children are killed cannot be one in a support of a noble cause. That is clearly, clearly balls, isn't it. I only referred to WWII to draw attention to the most obvious counter-example to Pilger's facile argument. But as it happens, I do think that fighting clerical terrorist-supporting fascists and for the liberation of a people, especially girls and women and gay people who suffered the most, is a noble cause.

The Williams case is, as I said, very rare. Serious injuries and death of soldiers from beasting is not, and cannot be, covered up. (I'm talking here about soldier on soldier violence, not soldier on civilian violence.)

There have been undoubtedly been a few horrendous cases of soldiers abusing Iraqi civlians. These are wholly wrong, and absolutely indefensible. But Pliger, of course, has to push it too far and claim that there was some form of official ok for illtreatment from the MoD. I know for a fact that is wrong, wrong, wrong. He's misinterpretated the HRA/ECHR cases that Shiner's told him about. (He also typically slyly suggests that the Mousa court-martial was rigged. Again, that's balls. The court martial system is fully ECHR compliant - in some respects, it's more article 6 compliant that civilian trials. The fact is that the other defendants would also have got off in a Crown court trial. But then Pilger isn't interested in due process for soldiers.)

And JC2, just to shut you up (as if!), I have no idea whether Pilger describes himself, or as have ever described himself, as leftwing. Can't see the relevance myself - he's clearly on the left whether he has ever so described himself or not.

JC2
11 July 2008 at 16:57

Oh Jonny Mac like I said at '28 June 2008 at 12:03' you are making a complete and utter fool of yourself in front of the whole world. But, if that is what you desire, who am I to tell you to go away.

Thanks for answering my question. Seeing as you have now admitted that you 'have no idea whether Pilger describes himself, or as have ever described himself, as leftwing' please don't claim that 'he's clearly on the left'. There is a much more accurate way of labelling Mr Pilger, and that is by calling him a seeker of truth. And, because you simply do not seem to be capable of listening to me (thus far), here is something I posted at exactly '01 July 2008 at 12:45':

I see John as a seeker of truth. And he doesn't do a bad job of it. Not bad at all. Better than most journos that's for sure. Truth does not change Jonny Mac. Ever. If those who speak the truth appear to be on the left then it is society that has a problem. It is society that has changed. Not the truth teller. Don't ever bloody forget that.

Now Jonny Mac, I know that you are going to think that what I am about to say is arrogant and / or delusional but the fact is that eventually you are going to come around to my way of thinking. Okay. And the sooner you realise that the better off this planet will be.

www.facebook.com/people/Matthew_J_Costigan/1311877403

Best wishes,

JC2

ps. Sorry, but you'll have to do a lot better if you want to shut me up. Notice how I have not been responding much to Polya, writeon, harp and co. That is because it is YOU that has the problem. Not us seekers of truth. Tata.

ruth
11 July 2008 at 20:17

"..the Brown government is spending £11bn of taxpayers' money on a huge, privatised military academy in Wales, which will train foreign soldiers and mercenaries recruited to the bogus "war on terror". With arms companies such as Raytheon profiting, this will become Britain's "School of the Americas", a centre for counter-insurgency (terrorist) training and the design of future colonial adventures"

Maybe these merceneries will be used to do deal with dissension in the UK when the economy gets really bad and when the UK/USA/Israel go to war with other countries. It would be more effective to use foreign soldiers against the population.

JimmyJames
11 July 2008 at 23:32

This is a good article. The job of 'mainstream' media should be to expose and uncover uncomfortable facts. Today it is mainly the mouthpiece of corporate barons. Journalism was probably much more investigative during the days of the Crimean war than today. Why is NATO in Afghanistan when as late as 1999 the Taliban is said to have been viewed more or less in friendly terms in Washington and London?

harp
12 July 2008 at 01:15

"I do think that fighting clerical terrorist-supporting fascists and for the liberation of a people, especially girls and women and gay people who suffered the most, is a noble cause."

"Aerial bombardments carried out as part of ISAF military operations have, as acknowledged by ISAF commanders, resulted in the killing of civilians in the course of specific engagements. These attacks may have failed to discriminate between civilian and military targets in breach of international humanitarian law. Such operations have also contributed to the forced displacement of up to 90,000 people who have fled their homes because of the violence..."

ASA 11/020/2006

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/info/ASA11/020/2006/en

Again, your being trivial Jonny, it doesn't matter who is doing the violence. What matters is the violence. Those abhorrent turban bearded dudes you hate so much are exactly the ones every american covert officer were eager to befriend in the eighties. Do you really think the perpetrators of this war care about women, gays, or anybody else.

The current government in Afghanistan ( The favorite of NATO AND US) is anti-women, anti-humanitarian rights, and-surprise,surprise-employs every vicious and "fascists" as well,

"In September 2006, Safiye Amajan, the Director of the Women’s Affairs department in Kandahar, was shot dead as she left her home for work. Last year, Zakia Zami, a woman who owned a radio station and was known to be vocal against warlords, was shot dead while sleeping aside her two young sons. Six people have been arrested in connection with her murder, but as in the case of Safiye Amajan, no one has so far been brought to trial."

This is of course the Western supported Karzai government. Though there is a lot of PR institutions, they have without any avail have protected any women so far in this "better" regime

"Amnesty International welcomes the progress in advancing women’s rights since the fall of the Taleban, notably through the establishment of the Ministry for Women’s affairs, the National Action Plan for women, improved access to education and representation of women in parliament, Afghan women and girls still face widespread discrimination from all segments of society, domestic violence, abduction and rape by armed individuals, trafficking, forced marriages, including ever younger child marriages, and being traded in settlement of disputes and debts."

and it continues...

"Both the Interim Afghanistan National Development Strategy and the January 2006 Afghanistan Compact have sought to strengthen the justice system, protect human rights and promote gender equality.1 Despite this groundwork, however, Amnesty International is concerned at the inability of the Afghan government to ensure access to justice for women whose rights have been abused. The police, the courts and other justice sector officials seldom address women’s complaints of violence, including rape and other sexual violence. Women victims and defendants have little recourse to justice and are discriminated against in both the formal and informal justice systems."

now this may seem like progress, but again its trivial, if the poor afghani women, or gays were the main reason for war ( or your reason for war) why is it that the "enlightened" states can't seem to impose on the Afghani's, whom they occupy, not even a slightest standard equivalent to International Law. In short if the taliban are so important why are we so adamant in supporting a government which stands for everything the taliban does... why can't we out-right just support these noble causes?

"The Afghanistan Compact set out benchmarks for the Afghan government and international community,

and established the Joint Co-ordination and Monitoring Body (JCMB), a high level, Afghan-international decision making body entrusted with overseeing implementation of the Compact’s commitments. The JCMB admitted in its February 2008 Status Report that there are “significant funding gaps” from the international community, as well as serious problems in coordination of aid between bilateral and multilateral projects in addition to lack of sufficient information about conditions on the ground. The JCMB has also characterized some of the principles established under the Compact as “too broad to provide practical guidance”. Aggravating these shortcomings is the failure of the international

community and the Afghan government to prioritize respect for human rights and the rule of law.

Instead, both have focused on short-term political stability and the conflict against the Taleban and

other anti-government groups, often through counter productive strategies of relying on ostensibly pro-government warlords and corrupt officials. These failures provide a strong propaganda tool to the

Taleban and other anti-government forces and help explain the ongoing instability that exposes

thousands of Afghans to increasing violence and prevents millions from enjoying key human rights, such as access to food, shelter, health care and education."

http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/ASA11/007/2008/en/d7...

Enough Said.

Finally I totally agree with JC2, Pilger maybe left-wing, but his reporting is not simply a contrarian exposition, he reveals the serious flaws in the doctrinal message, this is extremely important in getting through all the muck and propaganda...it follows, anyone who isn't lying is saying something truthfully.

knave
12 July 2008 at 07:01

I enjoy these exchanges, but blimey, trying to argue with you is like nailing jelly to the ceiling.

Jonny so do I and to be honest you write a good post, perhaps not to the standard of writeon or Taghiof, and where is he now.

I made a simple point: let's try it again. Pilger says (a) civilians, including children have been killed in Afghanistan and then (b) refers mockingly to Des Browne describing it as a war in support of a noble cause. The inference he invites us to draw is that a war in which civilians and children are killed cannot be one in a support of a noble cause. That is clearly, clearly balls, isn't it. I only referred to WWII to draw attention to the most obvious counter-example to Pilger's facile argument. But as it happens, I do think that fighting clerical terrorist-supporting fascists and for the liberation of a people, especially girls and women and gay people who suffered the most, is a noble cause.

There is an argument that even world war 2 was a not a noble cause, necessary perhaps but noble ?

Also it we believe in liberating women and gays from muslim countries then one might ask about the countries that we support or need. Saudi arabia or the gulf states. They are muslim states that have muslim laws. Now that might be noble

How do you know ?

There have been undoubtedly been a few horrendous cases of soldiers abusing Iraqi civlians.

A few ?

These are wholly wrong, and absolutely indefensible. But Pliger, of course, has to push it too far and claim that there was some form of official ok for illtreatment from the MoD. I know for a fact that is wrong, wrong, wrong. He's misinterpretated the HRA/ECHR cases that Shiner's told him about. (He also typically slyly suggests that the Mousa court-martial was rigged. Again, that's balls. The court martial system is fully ECHR compliant - in some respects, it's more article 6 compliant that civilian trials. The fact is that the other defendants would also have got off in a Crown court trial. But then Pilger isn't interested in due process for soldiers.)

Read his books Jonny and they are critical of most types of ideology. personally I think he is political maverick , a little like Richard Ingrams.

I think Pilger is good for politics witghout him we would have just one view of the world.

The neo con , liberal economic and the US is best view.

For example look at the columnists in the Guardian, Telegraph etc there is little difference.

As the politcial editor of the Spectator said of Martin Bright the political editor of the NS. There is surprisingly no different in the political ideas we have.

Cybertiger
12 July 2008 at 12:51

"The Defence Secretary, Des Browne, says the invasion of Afghanistan is "the noble cause of the 21st century"."

We are in Afghanistan to kill people - it doesn't matter who - and thus wreak revenge. That is an American cause ... and not, in any way, a noble one.

Pierre
12 July 2008 at 14:43

There is no such thing as "Terrorists" Its simple "our" interests as opposes to "Theirs"

The US constantly talks about their national interest, what about Irans,Iraqs,Afganistan,Canadas,Cubas,Palestines etc. etc.

JC2
12 July 2008 at 16:38

Why on earth do knave and Jonny Mac want to shut me up? The posts of those two misguided souls are WAY longer on average than mine. And yet I am the only one being told to shut up. What kind of a sick world is this we live in? Honestly, you two, why should I listen to you? If either of you can answer that question adequately, then I will do as you desire and shut up. Although not much will change in terms of noise level because I am quite sure that no-one out there in cyberspace can hear me typing. Remember folks, this is a comments page on the internet. Not a town hall meeting. Try and be a little more accurate next time. Please. I'll bet if Pilger was so loose with the English language you psychos would be ALL over him like a rash.

Alright, I think that's about it. Oh, no wait. knave, seeing as you simply plagarised Jonny Mac's brilliantly stupid quote I am going to do the same in order to answer you. Only difference is that I actually like to use my own work. Oh, and I'm right, as opposed to wrong.

Cheerio,

JC2

11 July 2008 at 16:57

knave
12 July 2008 at 17:18

When have I asked you to shut up.

I was answering Jonnymac questions. Also if you read my post I have nothing but high regard for Pilger. if only for been different than the Oxbridge right wing thatcherite clone that infects modern British journalism

harp
13 July 2008 at 00:22

Fighting in Afghanistan is a noble cause, why?

ruth
13 July 2008 at 01:30

This blog is deliberately being disrupted and Pilger being demeaned. I wonder by who?

ruth
13 July 2008 at 02:03

I presume the meaning of 'noble' referred to in this context is having high moral principles. The nearest I can get to it is that the USA and UK might believe they are protecting Christianity which obviously would be damaged as the West weakens from lack of resources. But surely the basic Christian values of not killing or stealing and loving your neighbour as your self have flown out the window.

The use of 'noble' does give connotations of the Crusades and freeing the Holy Land, which might be a good idea with the brutal treatment of the Palestinians.

nawawimohamad
13 July 2008 at 05:25

John Pilger is one of the rare few in this world who dare to write from the other side of the coin. What makes his article holds more water is because it contains supportive explainations and evidence which cannot be easily refuted. People like Claddach has no substance in their argument, just rethorics. We need more people like John Pilger.

By the way, the US and its western allies have no right to invade and occupy Afghanistan or for that matter anywhere else in the world. Afghanistan has not done anything to the US and its allies to be invaded. It is just simple imperialism. The money spent could be better used to elliviate poverty and hardship in this world.

antileft
13 July 2008 at 08:11

"Also if you read my post I have nothing but high regard for Pilger. if only for been different than the Oxbridge right wing thatcherite clone that infects modern British journalism"

How the left loves mediocrity. So, being from one of the two highest quality universities in the country (in other words, being extremely bright) is somehow... A bad thing?

JC2
13 July 2008 at 08:21

Sorry knave. I thought it was a bit out of character for you. Your post was a bit unclear to me. That's all. Sorry, mate.

harp: good question

ruth: good question and followed by an excellent and unarguable point.

nawawimohamad: Correct.

antibloodyleft: you are an idiot. you are wrong. and the sooner you realise that then the more fun you are going to have in the coming years (particularly this next coming year). Join us, antileft, and all your sins will be forgiven.

JC2

Carl Jones
13 July 2008 at 09:57

British soldiers forced a 14 year old Iraqi boy to perform oral sex on another Iraqi...this reported in the Independent.

In the coming years one speculate at the numbers of Iraqi and Afgan children seeking out their British fathers using the British police state DNA database.LOL

May I recommend viewing David Icke`s by election speech. Its on youtube "David Icke Big Brother" in 6 nine minute parts...its excellent.

fairplay
13 July 2008 at 11:49

love him or loathe him pilger certainly gets the debate going. i would imagine myself that the examples he talks about are the tip of the iceberg, hence such a large percentage of the forces no longer feeling "up to" the job.

i feel genuinely sorry for our armed forces. i believe them to be the best at what they are supposed to do and i would imagine a huge number of them are appalled at what they see but they will be bombarded daily with government propaganda to keep them motivated to fight the so called good fight.

wouldnt it be better though to spend the billions of taxpayers money wasted on these pointless wars investing in our own childrens welfare so that these disaffected kids on our inner city estates feel like they are part of something worthwhile instead of little home grown terrorist armies on our own shores.

what a waste of lives and money. what a way to bastardise being british. what a joke!

ruth
13 July 2008 at 12:33

The problem with that is without plentiful and cheap oil and gas supplies the economy will be kaput so there would be no money to invest in children's education.

To support our lifestyle it's essential we conquer countries and steal their resources, and to subjugate these countries it's necessary to engage in covert operations to bomb opposing factions to divide and rule. It's necessary to murder on a vast scale to reduce population numbers. It's necessary to torture particularly sexual deviant torture which really can work wonders on a Muslim population. And how effective can child abuse be. How many children in such a society would dare speak of such humiliation, which will cause them mental agony of incomprehensible dimensions.

JC2
13 July 2008 at 16:20

fairplay and ruth I luv ya both. Wanna catch up for a Pina Colada sometime (Jonny Mac's shout).

JC2

JC2
13 July 2008 at 17:35

I'm serious. I reckon John will be up for it too. Whaddya reckon?

JC2

knave
13 July 2008 at 19:57

I didn't say Oxbridge was a bad thing, just to many top columnists, get into top journo jobs because of their connections. This with without the hard work and experience of actually going to the areas of conflict. Pilger for all his faults has actually been to the places he writes about.

Luv you antileft.

How is Japan.

JC2
13 July 2008 at 20:58

Well? How about it. A gathering of Pilgerites. Pro and anti. John will be up for it I am sure. He is all for civilised debate. Better than the alternative, is it not? Anyway, anyone who wants to join me and John at a bar in Piccadilly (they have a cocktail happy hour every night and they are sweet) send me an email. jimmykrongold@yahoo.com. Jonny Mac must buy the first round of Pina Coladas if he wants to come. And if he doesn't, well, too bad. The rest of us will get pissed and sort this bloody world out once and for all. Oh, and we'll have to make do without a beach. This isn't Australia after all. C'mon everybody. Let's party like it's the End of the World as we know it!! haha.

JC2

ps. I luv ya too antileft. Just reckon your wrong. That's all.

Cybertiger
13 July 2008 at 21:36

@JC2

"ps. I luv ya too antileft."

This is true kinky love! But timmyantileft is still wrong, always wrong ... That's it!

ps. I luv ya ruth

JC2
13 July 2008 at 22:03

Yeah but at least they are just words. He doesn't have a gun. (I hope). Words can be damaging, sure. But they are preferable. Don't you agree, Cybertiger?

JC2

ps. I luv ya Cybertiger.

antileft
14 July 2008 at 08:15

"antibloodyleft: you are an idiot. you are wrong. and the sooner you realise that then the more fun you are going to have in the coming years (particularly this next coming year)."

One second, Im wrong how?! "Realising it" would be a lot easier if you were actually able to articulate it! Sounds like you dont have any idea what youre talking about- you just dislike my name. Maybe it's time to learn how to think properly?

Oh and this is typical boneheaded cybertiger:

"But timmyantileft is still wrong, always wrong ... That's it!"

Of course, you don't know what he was talking about either, do you cybertiger? You really cant form your own opinions at all can you? I'd like to see you get into oxbridge! Hahaha or any university for that matter! Id also like to see you try yahoo chat. Maybe you should give it a shot? Take knave with you.

"I didn't say Oxbridge was a bad thing, just to many top columnists, get into top journo jobs because of their connections."

That's not what you said at all! You didnt mention connections gained at university- that has nothing to do with your post. Here it is again:

"Also if you read my post I have nothing but high regard for Pilger. if only for been different than the Oxbridge right wing thatcherite clone that infects modern British journalism"

Typical left-wing, merit-hating nonsense. Yes, people from top universities thankfully "infect" british journalism. People who go to those universities generally tend to be very smart. No, theyre not "clones". If they agree on something, they tend to be right. Like Thatcherism. I know most of you disagree! But then, youve well and truly lost that argument!!! It must hurt! Does it hurt, lefties? Haha yeah I know it does. Must sting that no one listens to you anymore. It must suck that not one single major party is interested in going back on thatcherism. Shame. Maybe it's because youre wrong?

JC2
14 July 2008 at 08:57

Hahahahahaha. Oh antileft I like you pal. Got a bit of anger in you. You are most certainly on my team, like it or not. I love it.

JC2

Jonny Mac
14 July 2008 at 09:40

nawa - "By the way, the US and its western allies have no right to invade and occupy Afghanistan or for that matter anywhere else in the world. Afghanistan has not done anything to the US and its allies to be invaded." Nothing, that is, apart from harbour and support a terrorist group that had just committed mass murder on American soil to promote its declared 1998 aim of "killing Americans everywhere".

knave - "I think Pilger is good for politics witghout him we would have just one view of the world." I agree with you on this. We do need alternative viewpoints. It's just that Pilger's a fool.

ruth - "To support our lifestyle it's essential we conquer countries and steal their resources, and to subjugate these countries it's necessary to engage in covert operations to bomb opposing factions to divide and rule. It's necessary to murder on a vast scale to reduce population numbers." No, no, no. Conspiratorial crap. It would have been much cheaper and more efficient in capitalist terms not to invade Iraq or Afghanistan but instead to enter free trade agreements to buy their oil, like we do with the despicable Saudi regime.

harp - "Fighting in Afghanistan is a noble cause, why?" (1) After 9/11 and the sheltering of Bin Laden and the promotion of Islamic terrorism, the Taliban needed to be defeated for the sake of peace. (2) Afghanistan under the Taliban was a clerical fascist regime which terrorised and performed atrocities upon its population (executions in football stadiums, rape and murder of women who refused to be veiled etc). In a sane world, the left would see a war to oppose women hating clerical fascists as a noble endeavour. But then they hated the US, and the left hates the US, so by twisted Pilger-esque logic the grotesques of the Taliban become our friends whom it was just awful to depose. Never mind that millions of Afghan girls are now going to school for the first time, etc.

Cybertiger - "We are in Afghanistan to kill people - it doesn't matter who - and thus wreak revenge. That is an American cause ... and not, in any way, a noble one." What's your evidence in support of this?

JC2
14 July 2008 at 09:44

G'day Jonny Mac. Are you up for a few cocktails in Piccadilly with John and the rest of us in a couple of weeks, pal?

JC2

ruth
14 July 2008 at 10:24

From my experience anybody who counters a logical and sound argument with 'conspiracy ' is on very weak ground and is more often than not an agent of the state. Jonny Mac's argument that 'it would have been much cheaper and more efficient in capitalist terms not to invade Iraq or Afghanistan but instead to enter free trade agreements to buy their oil, like we do with the despicable Saudi regime.' is ridiculous. When a Western backed govenment takes a line of its own the West is in danger of having its resources cut off. Agreements can be broken at any time and unless the country is controlled by US, UK or Israel their economies are in serious danger. Therefore, anything goes.

Claddach
14 July 2008 at 12:07

There's something that is being overlooked by everyone participating on this thread. The main reason that John Pilger is only published in one reasonably mainstream newspaper. (NS) There's no conspiracy. No boycott. No censorship of his work.Let me capitalise this for emphasis. THERE IS A WIDESPREAD VIEW THAT PILGER'S POLITICAL JUDGEMENTS OF RECENT YEARS ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY. (for example his assertion in 2003 that "the current American elite is the Third Reich of our times") His films are loaded and flawed; his political judgements are histrionic; his research is nugatory. These are longstanding characteristics. If I had the time and really cared about it, It would be possible to detect a misleading statement, an unsubstantiated assertion or an outright lie on almost every page he has ever written.

Pilger is well known for the extravagance of his rhetoric and his emotive presentation. But these are less serious deficiencies than the way he treats historical sources. Perhaps it is because he believes so strongly in the notion of official deceit that Pilger disregards historical inquiry when forcing his prespecified conclusions. But whatever the reason, that's what he does, and that's what deprives his work of any redeeming characteristic.

Jonny Mac
14 July 2008 at 12:09

JC2 - I'll have a drink with you if Pilger is there too, though I doubt somehow he's been interested.

ruth - "a logical and sound argument...agent of the state..." Stop it, you're killing me. Tell me, why haven't we invaded Wahhabi supporting, extremist promoting, oil-rich Saudi? Oh, and do let me know why precisely "It's necessary to murder on a vast scale to reduce population numbers." Did David Icke say it is?

JC2
14 July 2008 at 13:57

Wicked. Can't wait for you to buy me and the others that first round. Okay, then. John, if you are there and want that Pina Colada from Jonny Mac in the near future why don't you give us all a sign. Thanks mate.

JC2

knave
14 July 2008 at 17:24

Antileft

“You really can’t form your own opinions at all can you?”

Everybody can form an opinion. They may not be a correct one.

It would be a logical fallacy old boy to think any different

“I'd like to see you get into Oxbridge”

Why, have you evidence we haven’t been to Corpus Christi

Hahaha or any university for that matter! Id also likes to see you try yahoo chat.

This is wonderful gibberish. I would say classic 16th Century Spanglish

Maybe you should give it a shot? Take knave with you.

I would love to.

"I didn't say Oxbridge was a bad thing, just to many top columnists, get into top journo jobs because of their connections."

That's not what you said at all! You didn’t mention connections gained at university- that has nothing to do with your post. Here it is again:

I said they were Oxbridge, where in the statement did I slag off Oxbridge. My heroes, the great Stephen Fry and the python gang went there.

Typical left wing, merit-hating nonsense.

Oh dear on the medication again. Who has got a dislike for meritocracy? I can’t remember saying that but it was a long weekend.

Yes, people from top universities thankfully "infect" British journalism.

People who go to those universities generally tend to be very smart.

I don’t know I met a few Oxbridge pillocks. Don’t see many running a business like AMSTRAD. Sir Alan has disdain for some of those individuals. No common sense.

No, they’re not "clones".

They were grafted form your nose hair Antileft. We needed genes with a super ego IQ. Although they can be unstable.

If they agree on something, they tend to be right. Like Thatcherism.

Why. Many Oxbridge alumni were commies or fascists in the 30’s. Were they right on those topics?

I know most of you disagree! But then, you’ve well and truly lost that argument!!!

Oh dear, it’s darkness again Antileft. Keep taking the drugs. We all love you

It must hurt! Does it hurt, lefties? Ha-ha yeah I know it does.

Now here comes the nice man with your special jacket.

I especially like the ha-ha. They’re behind you.

Claddach

Just for my own interest what does it mean/

I certainly wouldn't say there is a conspiracy. Most newspapers and magazines are right wing in nature, even the so called leftie guardian or independent . So why should want any of Pilgers articles.

His films are loaded and flawed; his political judgements are histrionic; his research is nugatory.

That is your opinion. Also most journalists fit into all those categories. Name one who doesn't. It is just they fit into your view of the world

These are longstanding characteristics. If I had the time and really cared about it, It would be possible to detect a misleading statement, an unsubstantiated assertion or an outright lie on almost every page he has ever written.

Well don't read him then. There are thousands upon thousands of "right wing" articles produced every year

that gives your view of the world, even in this periodical has more than it's fair share.

Pilger is well known for the extravagance of his rhetoric and his emotive presentation.

Why not it shows passion, and your quite happy to see a Peter Obone programme do the same thing

But these are less serious deficiencies than the way he treats historical sources. Perhaps it is because he believes so strongly in the notion of official deceit that Pilger disregards historical inquiry when forcing his prespecified conclusions. But whatever the reason, that's what he does, and that's what deprives his work of any redeeming characteristic.

Name a historian or journalist who does not work around a prespecified conclusion.

outsider
14 July 2008 at 18:29

The one fault I can find in John Pilger is that he doesn't realise that 9/11 was an 'Inside Job', and that Afghanistan was invaded not because of Osama (who had been treated shortly before, whilst purpotedly the most wanted man in America over the African Embassy bombings, in the American hospital in Dubai, treated by an American doctor, and visited whilst there by not only members of the Saudi Royal Family, but also by the local station head of the CIA) but because the Yanks could not make a deal with the Taliban to let them run oil and gas pipelines through their country, to export Caspian oil and gas; purely by coincidence, the US bases in Afghanistan run along the proposed pipeline routes.

Apart from that, you're bril, John! (I'm an old Central America and East Timor campaigner).

London E1

ruth
14 July 2008 at 19:04

And also the potential of the opium trade must have one of the factors. Processing of heroin now takes place in Afghanistan and 95% of the heroin sold in the UK comes from the country. In 2001 the Taliban had eradicated the industry. So it seems more than likely that US/UK covert operations are in place behind the warlords.

gnuneo
14 July 2008 at 20:46

"ruth

13 July 2008 at 12:33

The problem with that is without plentiful and cheap oil and gas supplies the economy will be kaput so there would be no money to invest in children's education.

actually, this is not true at all. Warfare is exceptionally expensive for a nation to 'indulge in', and almost never brings back any surplus, especially with a continuing hostile reaction by the newly invaded.

nor do our (UK & US) economies need to be building and spending on arms to maintain expenditure, the money can be spent far more fruitfully on social needs, heavily subsidising housing upgrades to improve efficiency would employ 100s of thousands more britons than those working in the arms industry, which would improve the UK economy enormously.

but a crucial distinction must be made here - which is that those who own the *companies* make fortunes when a nation builds arms, the major shareholders of halliburton for instance are really quite unlikely to want the war on iraq to end.

these wars are in every conceivable way harmful to BOTH the subject populations, and also the supposed 'democracies' that sent the national armies (and mercenaries) to invade and occupy - the only ones gaining out of this are the warmongers themselves, and those who will retire from public office with an invitation to speak at functions hosted by the carlyle group, amongst others.

"Afghanistan has been a warzone since its invasion by the Soviet Union 28 years ago. The current NATO involvement is a relatively short chapter in the story of these people's suffering."

google "british invasions of afghanistan", here's a good intro:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_influence_in_Afghanist...

"the US switched from supporting the Taleban to the Northern Alliance - the side formerly supported by the Soviets."

actually, the NA is a rough coalition that the US trained and armed to fight the Soviets, the taliban was just one of the extreme religious-right groups the religious-right reaganites & bushites supported. After the war with the soviets, the NA and taliban groups fell to warfare amongst themselves.

"So its really hard to see where there could be any honor or nobility in this war. However I do feel we do have a duty to stabilize this country. After all this time, that is the only good thing that could come out of nearly thrity years of the great game being played at the price of Afghanistan."

a lot longer than that, and the sad thing is, once again 'we're' just playing the game. Had we been serious about developing afghanistan, local companies would have been set-up to be owned by the people (to kick-start economic development a la grameen bank), there would have been land redistribution away from the large-landowners to liberalise both home-ownership and agriculture, the armies would have had afghanis in senoir advisory positions, and able to punish NATO trangressions against the local population, to show they were liberators, not occupiers, and possibly even belated apologies from 'our' govts about the role 'we' had in the troubles of Afghanistan, all the way up to the current day.

that 'we' made no effort whatsoever to do any of this, has led the afghanis, many of whom really did welcome the removal of the taliban with roses in their hearts, if not in their arms, to look back to the time of the taliban as better than now.

think about what a total failure in what we have done, that 'our' ocupation is seen by so many, to be WORSE than the rule of the taliban.

just think about it.

"stabilise this country"? Well that would have been awesome, and cheaper and easier than continuing to have to fight the taliban.

so why didn't 'we', and why have 'we' adopted policies that create results the absolute opposite of what 'we' claim to be achieving?

"one story for the plebs, another for the rulers, and the rulers just get richer."

or simpler: our blood, their gold.

noble cause? To all intelligent people, it can be seen the only "noble cause" of the Wars on Terror is the grotesque enrichment of the few bankrolling, and arming, it.

which is a squalid waste of our young soldiers lives, as well as yet another collossal and appalling imperialist invasion, occupation, and on-going war.

jonny mac: "The inference he invites us to draw is that a war in which civilians and children are killed cannot be one in a support of a noble cause. That is clearly, clearly balls, isn't it."

al qeida would appear to agree with you, at least.

"But as it happens, I do think that fighting clerical terrorist-supporting fascists and for the liberation of a people, especially girls and women and gay people who suffered the most, is a noble cause."

and when it is then replaced by a govt that even these groups largely regard as worse in many ways... where buried then is the "noble cause"?

if 'we' had invaded afghanistan for a truly Noble Cause, we would have initiated policies that would have benefitted the locals - with full participation from the locals. Yet even the 'aid' organisations led top-down structures, with little or no over-sight from the afghans, and certainly no accountability.

such arrogance, such blatant little concern with the actual people in afghanistan itself, does not seem to suggest any great 'noble cause' to me.

"I see John as a seeker of truth. And he doesn't do a bad job of it. Not bad at all. Better than most journos that's for sure. Truth does not change Jonny Mac. Ever. If those who speak the truth appear to be on the left then it is society that has a problem. It is society that has changed. Not the truth teller. Don't ever bloody forget that."

excellent words, but i would say he is "honest". Truth is always changing (although some truths linger longer, are more accurate), all we can do is be honest with what we believe, and stay open-minded to new ideas. I do not regard John as "telling the truth", i regard John as being incorrigably honest, and with a passion for Humanity that makes him see clearly what is murky for so many others.

"in times of Dictatorship, to be honest is to perform a rebellious, and evolutionary, act."

ruth
15 July 2008 at 00:34

gnuneo

"actually, this is not true at all. Warfare is exceptionally expensive for a nation to 'indulge in', and almost never brings back any surplus, especially with a continuing hostile reaction by the newly invaded'

I agree war is expensive but totally disagree with 'almost never brings back any surplus" Iraqi oil is not being metered and hasn't been since the invasion. I believe it's heavily protected by the ex-army/politician mercenary companies, companies whose true ownership is opaque. Moreover, who's making the profits from the bumper crops of opium now with in-country processing into heroin? 95% of UK imports come from Afghanistan.Don't tell me this is run by the Taliban who actually eradicated the crop in 2001. Also back home the arms industry is good for the economy.

gnuneo
15 July 2008 at 03:40

ruth:"I agree war is expensive but totally disagree with 'almost never brings back any surplus" Iraqi oil is not being metered and hasn't been since the invasion. I believe it's heavily protected by the ex-army/politician mercenary companies, companies whose true ownership is opaque."

in other words the benefits of this holocaust are not coming back to the tax-payers who are funding it.

Quote "To all intelligent people, it can be seen the only "noble cause" of the Wars on Terror is the grotesque enrichment of the few bankrolling, and arming, it.".

we are not in disagreement here. (:

"95% of UK imports come from Afghanistan.Don't tell me this is run by the Taliban who actually eradicated the crop in 2001."

actually, they have been now for the last couple of years, when they put together the enormous profit the western authorities (namely the intelligence community) with the fact it is the home populations of the soldiers countries they were harming, and it seemed their morality regarding not selling the crop faded. It is still the majority that comes through 'our' intelligence service, this is true. Disgusting, isn't it?

"Also back home the arms industry is good for the economy."

nope, this is a fnord. In fact the arms industry sucks up tax breaks, sucks up graduates, sucks up the enormous Govt expenditure for its own armies - in fact the military economy is nearly always extremely inefficient compared to a civilian orientated one. Examine both japan's and china's rise as they focused upon civilian production, when the consumer base is the whole population, and not a tiny minority's benefit 'to keep the peasants down', then the consumption cycles boom.

compare the economic growth of mass-consumption Industrialised Britain, with the development of the heavily autocratic, top-down military orientated Czarist Russia.

the arms industries are actually bankrupting us, and they are not Nationally owned. end of Fnord. ;)

gnuneo
15 July 2008 at 04:39

"compare the economic growth of mass-consumption Industrialised Britain, with the development of the heavily autocratic, top-down military orientated Czarist Russia."

in fact the 'wealth gap' is a very good indicator of how efficient an economy is, the narrower the gap the highest demand for goods/services is achieved across the entire economy and society. A large wealth gap indicates high inefficiency, czarist russia simply could not outperform modern denmark, brazil is being held back by its enormous wealth gap, there have become severe strains in the UK economy as the tax burden has been shifted down, very similar to what is happening in many states of the US.

JC2
15 July 2008 at 09:24

Alright people John can't make it next Friday 25 July. He is working on a new documentry about Colombia and will probably be in Colombia then. He said he would love to be there and that he will try and do something for us. If, that is, there is an US.

Anyway, I would love to meet all of you. Even those of you who are dead wrong all the time. haha. And I always say that there is nothing that can't be resolved over a pint (or a Pina Colada for that matter).

Now there is a great little bar right near Piccadilly called On Anon. It is in the Trocadero building. www.allinlondon.co.uk/clubs_bars/venue-2749.php. I reckon we start gathering at around 5. I think the Happy Hour goes 'til 7 or something like that. Cocktails for less than £4. Bang.

Gideon, I know you're in Oz but it would be great if you could make it. Like I said a couple of weeks ago I reckon you deserve a bit of a break more than anyone.

Now, you might think that I am some sort of whacko. Well, I prefer to be called a churlish rogue. But I am great fun especially when a bit tipsy. If you want to know a bit more about me here is my Facebook address:

www.facebook.com/people/Matthew_J_Costigan/1311877403

C'mon everybody, let's take a break from trying to save the world and just let our hair down a bit. ha.

Best wishes and peace to all,

Matt

ps. Just so John has an idea on who is coming please RSVP via email (to me. see facebook page) by Sunday night. Yes or no. Easy.

Ned_Kelly
15 July 2008 at 12:41

Meh. This is the oldest story in the book - British Army being racialist, ruthless and mindless.

- There is no known tradition of 'human rights' that pertains to the British Army or "nobility" which is retro-fitted to imperial wars - yea even unto WWII which was an Imperial conflict that happened to uproot the Concentration Camps (invented by the British as an anti-civilian tactic to win the Boer War, BTW). The great British public are too simple and open-natured (gullible) to do anything else except follow their masters of war blithely into battle wherever they go.

Cybertiger
15 July 2008 at 13:10

"The great British public are too simple and open-natured (gullible) to do anything else except follow their masters of war blithely into battle wherever they go."

It's democracy, stupid! (aka freedom for woolly-minded sheep).

Ned_Kelly
15 July 2008 at 13:49

I wonder, really, who is being "stupid" - the concept of "democracy" is laden with assumptions. I resort to Mr. Pilger, who resorts to Tolstoy, to clarify my foregoing remark:

"Of course, the image of militarist Britain clashes with a benign national regard formed, wrote Tolstoy, "from infancy, by every possible means - class books, church services, sermons, speeches, books, papers, songs, poetry, monuments [leading to] people stupefied in the one direction". Much has changed since he wrote that. Or has it?"

Jonny Mac
15 July 2008 at 13:52

Loony conspiracy theories...open contempt for democracy (what yould you prefer, Cybertiger?) and the British public...libelling of soldiers...twisting of the war for national survival against Nazi-ism into "an imperial conflict" (man)...just another day on one of Britiain's premier left of centre sites. Only surprised that someone hasn't blamed it (whatever it is) on the Jews - sorry, Zionists - in the past 24 hours.

Ned_Kelly
15 July 2008 at 14:01

Jmac- WWII was a war between imperial powers - the national survival bit only comes about because you lost it only to have supersub USA come on board in extra time.

ruth
15 July 2008 at 17:18

From my experience anybody who counters a logical and sound argument with 'conspiracy ' is on very weak ground and is more often than not an agent of the state.

gnuneo
15 July 2008 at 17:49

in my experience anyone who counters a logical and sound argument with 'conspiracy ', is either generally ignorant of the bigger picture, and/or has a very romantic view of human nature.

humans conspire together for their own ends - always have, always will. Recognising this simple feature of human existence makes so much of what is incomprehensible to the naive entirely comprehendable to the newly, not quite so romantic student of Humanity.

This is of course not to say that many have not wandered down the fields of conspirativity, lost in bemusement, seeing everything as part of a Grand Scheme.

koinos kosmos (common reality) falls somewhere in-between.

JC2
15 July 2008 at 23:48

I can't believe you nutters are still going. I'm outta here. I need a drink.

JC2

gnuneo
15 July 2008 at 23:52

have a pina on me. ;)

JC2
16 July 2008 at 09:38

Okay then, gnuneo. I'll have one from you Friday 25 July. See my earlier post 15 July 2008 at 09:24.

Excellent. That's one Pina Colada from Jonny Mac, and one from gnuneo. Nice. Cheers guys. Seeya Friday.

JC2

ps. Anyone else wanna buy me a Pina Colada?

JC2
16 July 2008 at 20:11

Anyone?

DEVA
18 July 2008 at 23:50

CLADDACH, congrats on knowing what an apostrophe is, and that reiterate is not hyphenated, if tangogirl doesn't, so what? You are capable of working out that re-iterate means reiterate aren't you? Don't make yourself look such a tosser by attacking someone's punctuation, for all you know tangogirl might not be english, she could be writing in a second or even third language, let her arguments be right or wrong, but for god's sake shut the fuck up about the rules of the english language, which by the way is completely imperialistic. Tosser.

JC2
20 July 2008 at 13:46

How does DEVA's post (which I completely agree with by the way) get left up while mine constantly get taken down, John?

JC2

GWYDDGWYRDD
31 August 2008 at 07:39

This is the most racist article I have read in a long time. My country may have colonised much of the world but that does not make us the most evil nation in the world. Every nation has problems and no nation is perfect, certainly not Britain. But some of the "facts" of this article are not true: vacuum bombs are not designed to "suck air out of the lungs" but to destroy buildings and armaments as a nuclear bomb would. Furthermore, the British military is a very brave group of people who have worked hard for this people, for Queen and country, to secure peace and security on a global scale. Had my country not defeated Nazi tyrrany in the second world war (and that's my grandparents' achievement by the way) this world would be a whole lot darker. Save the fascism for someone who cares.

OzzyM
22 September 2008 at 20:01

It's nice that an unbiased view on the so-called 'war on terrorism' is being talked about in such length. But it looks like this too will be soon forgotten like many such articles in the past. Does anyone out there care about the actual truth? The media is very quick to report 'fanatic mullahs' spreading terror but turns a blind eye on the terrorist states of Israel and her illegitimate parents - US and UK and the perverted crimes they commit everyday. It is as though a norm to label Muslims as terrorists and fanatics without even looking into the facts. The stories that we read everyday (including 9/11 types) are all conveyed to us by the pro-western and Zionist media. Does anyone question the neo-crusaders on their self-license to go and bomb anyone they like? We should know that being silent on a crime is as much a crime as committing the same.

Last but not the least, my appeal to everyone viewing this space is to read about Islam before making any judgement about this great religion. After you've read an unbiased account on Islam, you'll ask for yourself - could any sincere follower of this religion really commit any of those perverted crimes attributed to them?

-Ozzy

GREATGATSBY
22 October 2008 at 19:01

PILGER IS THE GREAT HERO OF OUR TIMES

A SEEKER OF THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OF TRUE REALITY

MAYBE HIS AUSSIE BACKGROUND(LIKE MINE) GIVES HIM A RARE PERCEPTION AWAY FROM THE CLASS-ORIENTED BRITISH

LONG MAY HE REIGN AND EXPOSE THESE EXPLOITATIVE BASTARDS WHO COVET DRUGS AND OIL, THE TRUE MOTIVES FOR THESE SCANDALOUS INVASIONS

We want to encourage people to comment on our content and to exchange views with other readers and hope this will be done on a courteous basis. However, if you encounter posts which are offensive please let us know by emailing comments@newstatesman.co.uk and we will take swift action where necessary.

About the writer

John Pilger, renowned investigative journalist and documentary film-maker, is one of only two to have twice won British journalism's top award; his documentaries have won academy awards in both the UK and the US. In a New Statesman survey of the 50 heroes of our time, Pilger came fourth behind Aung San Suu Kyi and Nelson Mandela. "John Pilger," wrote Harold Pinter, "unearths, with steely attention facts, the filthy truth. I salute him."

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