The God issue

Is the Divine dead? In this special issue, we weigh up the evidence. And

We agreed to disagree, God and I, more than 30 years ago. I concluded that He was a metaphor, He begged to differ, and things went downhill after that. Yet for all I've led a secular life in a country regularly described as the least religious in the world, God takes some shaking off. His teams say He is omnipresent and though I don't agree, He has quite a property portfolio, many voluble cheerleaders and, if official statistics mean anything, the tacit support of most of the country. Then there are churches! The minarets! That slot on the Today programme . . . If God is a metaphor, He's a pretty noisy one.

The last census showed that more than 72 per cent of British people called themselves Christian, around 3 per cent Muslim (it will be more by now) and half a per cent Jewish; so that's more than three-quarters for the Sky-God, as Gore Vidal puts it, or the Abrahamics. Just under 15 per cent said they had no religion, and just under 8 per cent ignored the question, being either so secular that they didn't get it, or perhaps people who think God disapproves of questionnaires.

Now, of course plenty of the three-quarters only mean they quite like humming the songs, or feel sentimental when they roll up to see Fiddler on the Roof. They are religious in the way that someone who has bought a pair of trainers is an athlete. They might be mildly offended by the New Atheism, the broadsides of Richard Dawkins, A C Grayling or Christopher Hitchens, but not enough to turn up and listen to a vicar putting the other side. The 2005 Church Survey, assessing the size of congregations in the country's 37,000 churches, reckoned that only 6.3 per cent of people showed up regularly. A thousand people joined a church each week, but 2,500 left one.

Behind the raw figures, there is plenty of change. Driving back from work on a Sunday, I pass big groups of black kids outside church, clutching their Bibles. The decline in attendance has slowed only because of immigrants: more Poles boost Catholic churches, and yes, in inner London, for instance, less than half the churchgoers are white. Above all, there is the rise in British Islam, both in visibility and numbers.

Much of this is a familiar story for the modern British. The Church of England suffered one of its most precipitous periods of decline from 1935-45 and overall church attendance after the Second World War was boosted by immigrant Irish and refugee Poles. The rise in the Catholic Church has been a long, slow curve, not a recent burst.

Crazy about moderation

What has really changed is God in the public culture. He may still be in the Garden, in private places, but think of Britain in the 1940s and 1950s. Think of the influence of religious poets (T S Eliot, the later Auden), of religious art and architecture (the rebuilding of Coventry Cathedral), of religious music (Britten's hymns, Missa Brevis and carols) and of religious writers such as C S Lewis, and it's clear that Christianity at least has moved from a powerful cultural position to a marginal one. Add to that the saturating influence of hymn and psalm settings and the near-ubiquity of church weddings and funerals, and you see a really big change. Go a little further back and think of Victorian Britain: a much smaller population and churches which now seem ludicrously large and empty.

I think it is simply because the once-dominant church, the Anglican one, and for that matter the Church of Scotland, in which I grew up, were simply never as aggressive and authoritarian as the Catholic Church, or any variety of Islam. This is a watery, temperate country with a long and soundly based suspicion of intensity. Apart from Northern Ireland, the last time the British were really intense about religion was in the 17th century. If you want to imagine what the civil wars were like for many villages and towns, with neighbours killing neighbours and families dividing, think of the Sunni-Shia war in Iraq, or the worst of times in the post-Yugoslavia Balkans. Oh, and we had our Taliban, too, from John Knox's version in Scotland to the statue-smashers and dance police of Cromwellian England. The misogyny that allows Muslim women to be stoned or beaten for alleged sexual transgressions is vile, as vile as our one-time relish for roasting witches. Though no one knows the real figures, it is thought that some 40,000 women were killed here in the "burning times".

Somehow, the folk memories remain for longer than his torians acknowledge. It's less that the British are irreligious, or even secular, though many of us are. It's not that the Brit-ish are hostile to God. It's that they are hostile to fervour, to fanaticism, to taking anything, even the Meaning of Life, too seriously. It's a lesson learned long ago, the hard way, and never quite forgotten. And it gets more important, not less. A small, crowded place, the world's island, can't afford assertive, flaming certainties. Something, or somebody, might catch fire.

It's important to try to rein in Muslim extremists. It matters that more level-headed imams gain ground. For a country in a world that will depend on science to get us through hard times ahead, it is vital not to equate creationism with Darwinism, or to allow any religious group to dictate to others how they live their lives. But as people come here, and live here, and look around and wonder about God and the British, the real prize is to persuade them just to calm down. He may be among us. Or, as I think, He may not. (I take no pleasure in that, by the way: praise, in the sense of drinking in the delight of life, is good, and asking, "What's it all for?" is inevitable. Wondering about death is, too, and communal singing is a wonderful thing. It's just the facts I have trouble with.)

But either way, if God is still with the British, He will be quiet, understated, embarrassed by enthusiasm, and no supporter of violence, or even violent words. Some think God is a bright-eyed woman; others think He is a local and shy affair, fluvial, bosky and - in Louis MacNeice's phrase - incorrigibly plural. Over time, I think, His property portfolio will shrink and He will quit any involvement with the state, and a good thing, too. But the problem isn't God. The problem is anger.

Andrew Marr hosts a Sunday morning TV show on BBC1 and Radio 4's Start the Week. His next book will be a history of modern Britons from 1900-45

A brief history of God

1200BC Zoroastrians in ancient Persia begin to speak of a single, unchanging God

1200-400BC Judaism develops as a faith in one God for a single, chosen people

4thc BC Plato describes "the divine creator" as the highest and most perfect being

1stc AD In Palestine, Jesus preaches that there is one God - the Father - and he is His son

325AD The Nicene Creed defines Christian belief in the Trinity

613AD In Arabia, Muhammad preaches that Allah is the one eternal, transcendent God

1517AD Martin Luther's teachings begin the Protestant Reformation

1882AD Friedrich Nietzsche announces that "God is dead"

1900sAD Sigmund Freud describes God as a projection of the mind

Research by Aditi Charanji

30 comments

Simon Icke's picture

Jesus Christ is Alive! I used to be an atheist but realised I had no real purpose in life and nothing that the world offered could fill that spiritual vacuum I felt inside. One day realising that everything the world offered was empty and only of fleeting interest. I humbled myself and repented and invited Jesus into my life. At the moment I said the believer’s prayer I knew that Jesus was alive as I experienced the power and love of his Holy Spirit. That was in 1979 nothing since then has convinced me otherwise than that was the best decision I ever made in my life to become a born again Christian and know the love, joy and power of God's Holy Spirit. I found a living faith that I didn't deserve. It was by God's Grace alone that saved a wretch like me.

I pray than one day when you stopped following the fool Dawkins that you to will find Jesus Christ to be your Lord and Saviour. I am certain that Jesus Christ is alive. I have witnessed many instances where I have seen God's power at work including the miraculous healing of my brother Danny when he was diagnosed with an inoperable brain tumour and given only weeks to live. That also was in 1979. My brother was miraculously healed by the power of prayer. He is still alive and well 30 years later. The bottom line is that I have lived a life without God and found it to be empty. But I have had the humility to believe in Jesus Christ as the messiah, the saviour of the world and found it to be true. Every time I pray I feel his presence and his amazing love. All the money and power in this world cannot compare than having a personal faith in Jesus Christ.

I hope one day that all you who persecute and ridicule Christians will one day have a Saul experience and be touched by the power of the Holy Spirit on your own Road to Demascus( see the book of Acts) and realise how wrong you have been and start to follow Jesus rather than the false empty wisdom of the aggressive atheist . Seek and you will find Jesus is Alive

bungle's picture

Since there is not one scrap of evidence for the existence of a tangible, Omnipotent god while, on the other hand, there are billions of data confirming Darwin's theory of the evolutionary origin of species, may I propose that we adopt Darwin as God and when we say we believe in God, we mean we believe in Darwin. God bless! John Vaughan (aka The Headingley Bugle)

writeon's picture

As it's Sunday a line from Andrew Marr suddenly struck me, we the British are hostile to taking anything, even the meaning of life, too seriously. This wan't meant as a criticism, but as something positive, something commendable, something to be proud of, a shining characteristic of Britishness.

But couldn't one argue that this means we are profoundly shallow and superficial. That nothing really matters to us, that nothing has real worth anymore? Or is it that the only thing that we take seriously is our right to take nothing too seriously? Is life but a joke, not to be taken seriously? Maybe it is? We can distance ourselves from reality by presenting a ironic face and distance to it. It's a way of avoiding real egagement and responsibility for our actions, because, after all we weren't really serious.

A heart are we merely amoral and hollow? Unfeeling husks masquerading as human beings?

What about life and death? Are we the kind of people who don't take life and death too seriously? Because to be really, authentically British means we don't take anything too seriously?

Is this really something to be proud of? That we don't take anything too seriously? Or should we really be deeply ashamed that we have so littlle understanding that we take nothing too seriously?

Is that the reason why we went to war against Iraq so easily, because we no longer take anything too seriously? We no longer take war and mass destruction too seriously? But should we take some things seriously? Isn't life and death too important not to be taken seriously? Can one really have a kind of ironic distance to mass murder and mass destruction? Is it because we are the ones doing the killing that we can afford to not take anything too seriously, because it's not our children and loved ones that are being ripped apart by bombs and bullets?

Clealy I'm taking Andrew Marr's words seriously, very seriously. He is an influential media actor, and he appears so shallow, so full of himself, so lacking in empathy for the suffering of others, so isolated from the consequences of our actions. A million and half dead Iraqis and destroyed nation, but don't lose sleep over it, it the essence of being British to moderate the loss away, the dead don't really bother us too much, because we don't take anything too seriously.

malachy's picture

Riaz, spot-on. As human beings we need to pull down the vanity and striving of creating an all-powerful and eternal being in one's own image, and make our peace with the fact that we are human, with no part of or relationship to, any invisible and silent mega-being.

Ron McKeown's picture

Can I just speak up for the “True” atheist here. There is no such thing as an atheist “belief”. An atheist does not believe in anything whether it be religion, politics, science or anything else. People who “believe” there is no god are agnostic. It is not a question of belief for an atheist, it is a knowledge based on logic.

NatO's picture

RE: RobinEdgar - Please don't take thi sthe wrong way, but: are you joking? I really can't tell if you are taking the mick or you really believe "The Creator of the Universe has seen fit in Its wisdom to symbolize Its attribute of divine omniscience with the total solar eclipse 'Eye of God'."
Dude, it's an eclipse. This is not the Aztec empire; I thought we had moved beyond worshiping the sun and the moon, and attributing meaning to the predictible movement of astronomical bodies...

Also, RE: Guy Bellairs - we have only had science for a couple of hundred years. Just because some things are not 100% worked out yet doesn't mean they won't be in the future. It's not open minded at all to make a decision that "the universe was devised by an external 'rational designer'" when in reality we are only scratching the surface of knowledge and will surely, given time, find more plausible explanations to these questions.

writeon's picture

Dear Lowfidelity,

You clearly don't agree with Andrew Marr. You wrote that, 'Britishness' certainly doesn't mean that we don't take anything seriously, and he wrote the opposite. He may not have meant what he said, or meant something else, or doesn't know what he's on about, but, that is what he wrote. I'm not making it up.

I'm aware that the subject of the piece wasn't 'Britishness'. I've written about what I think of the rest of it. But Andrew Marr is an influential, establisment, journalist , writing a rather glib piece about God/religion, and one has to assume he gave some thought to his choice of words and what they mean. I'm not inventing what he said. Andrew Marr wrote that the "British are hostile to taking anything too seriously, even the meaning of life." This may be an attempt at irony, on the other hand, he obviously believe he's got a point. That his words have meaning, otherwise why bother to write anything at all about this subject?

I was speculating about whether his statement about not taking anything too seriously applied to wars of mass destruction leading to massive loss of life in, for example, Iraq? I wondered if it might be true, in a strange sort of way. Judging by the muted response to Tony Blair's participation in warcrimes, I believe there's some validity to my argument.

One can of course assume that Andrew Marr just knocked off this article in a tick and didn't mean half of what he said. This is quite possible. But he did write what he wrote. I'm not putting words in his mouth. Have I distorted what he said? Have I taken a simple remark and blown it out of all proportion? Perhaps.

I just wondered if this kind of thinking and attitude applied in a wider context. Perhaps he really means that the British don't take anything too seriously, and that this is a positive quality and characteristic the British have, in contrast to for example, Muslims! Dreaded Muslims again. Compared to us these buggers seem to really take things too seriously and get worked up about 'things'. They actually get upset when we invade their countries, detroy their cities, and slaughter their people, funny lot! Why can't they be more like us? When are cities were being destroyed by the Nazi Luftwaffe we just shrugged, make a joke and put the kettle on! My these Muslims have lot to learn about warfare!

I think his comments about Muslims, who he seems to lump together in one big pack, are outrageous. His 'analysis' about the nature of the occupation of Iraq by western forces is establishment propaganda.
We are rational and moderate and they are raving fanatics, hundreds of years behind us on the scale of development. This is the establishment line, one that's been around for centuries in one form or another, so maybe we aren't as 'advanced' as we like to think we are? Historically we've always turned those who resist us into savages, to make slaughtering them more palatable, sensitive and moderate things that we are.

They he directly compares the stoning of women in some Muslim countries, with the witchtrials when 40,000 were roasted! Isn't this going somewhat over the top? Whoops, my moderation is slipping, damn those Muslims for getting me so worked up!

Then he's off about the need to rein in Muslim extremists and how much it matters that more level-headed imams gain ground. As if the Muslims are somehow irrational when they get angry. He actually states that the problem is anger, not God.

There is nothing about our 'crusader' army invading Iraq and destroying it. Or our Christian nutter of an ex-prime minister Tony Blair leading the charge. Bush the religious nutter/fanatic gets let off too. He unleashes the most powerful Christian army in history on a couple of Muslim nations and kills tens of thousands, but this somehow doesn't warrent a mention, but Muslim anger does!

It's very one sided and biased writing, and terrible history, and very right-wing politics. This dreadful, pathetic idea that we are the innocent victems of Muslim terror and senseless violence, and it's got nothing to do with our military agression towards them. Palestine doesn't exist, Iraq doesn't exist, Afghanistan doesn't exist, only their incomprehensible anger.

maruf the cobbler's picture

Riaz is being very kind to a sloppy, messy, bungler . Thirtyfive percent going to bed hungry? What about the 165 million born every year without eyes to see or ears to hear or tongues to speak with. What about 1,578 million born with endemic diseases so crippling they are destined never to lead useful lives. And should we write off the chromosomes mix up that result in a sixth of humankind growing up to become creatures of no determinate gender that the bungler's proliferating army of prophets condemn as abominations.

LowFidelityDisconnect's picture

I think what Andrew is saying about British-ness is an observation on what is essentially an all too difficult to define quality of what sets the British character apart from other cultures. I think he summed it up quite well, bearing in mind that this is a short essay fro a magazine and only meant as an illustration of a broader point. Writeon needs to consider that what it means to be British was not actually the subject of the piece.

However, as an illustration, I think it was spot on. The British character, if there can be said to be one, is one of almost self-imposed reluctance to get worked up about things. It most certainly does not mean that we don't take anything seriously.

We only need to take a brief look at the circus of election hysteria across the Atlantic to see the effects of taking things so seriously they move out of all proportion to their importance. The issues of race and gender are obscuring what should otherwise be a debate on who should run the country, not whether we can elect a black man or a white woman.

This obfuscation of the real issues is exactly the same in religion. I am an atheist. I believe in physics and evolution. The problem I believe is that we are still talking about religion like it's a viable alternative to measurable fact and observable sense. While I believe anybody has the right to believe what they choose, I do find it frustrating that people choose to believe something that is quite clearly, to the rational (read scientific) mind, false.

Religion has played an immensely important part in our understanding of life in our history, and opened up discussion on some very interesting an important philosophical questions, not least of which is 'why are we here?' These questions are no less relevant after the discovery of evolution than they were before; if anything they are even more interesting, free as we now are to explore the nature of existence without the burden of creationism.

If we assume that God (in whatever form) does not exist, can I posit a more relevant question for our times? No longer should we ask 'why are we here?', but 'what should we do now that we are?'

marouanelaur526's picture

Borrowing sentiments from Mark Twain, The death of God has been greatly exaggerated. I think that Idea, so subject to confusion, exploitation, speculation and abuse is about to make a comeback and this time in no uncertain terms: Check the link, the download is free and change the course of history! http://www.energon.org.uk

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