The Staggers

The New Statesman’s rolling politics blog

José Manuel Barroso: “How is Britain so open to the world, but so closed to Europe?”

Outside Europe, Britain will be reduced to the role of a “Norway or Switzerland”, warns the president of the European Commission.

By New Statesman Published 11 July 2012 22:00

President José Manuel Barroso being interviewed by David Miliband.

For his guest-edited edition of the New Statesman this week, David Miliband has interviewed José Manuel Barroso, president of the European Commission.

As Miliband observes, that the eurozone crisis has been "an unmitigated disaster for Europeans, and especially for pro-Europeans" and with the eurosceptic argument raging in Britain’s political parties, there’s no better time to seek answers from Barroso, a man at the heart of the Brussels administration.

To read the entirety of the wide-ranging discussion, you’ll need to get your hands on a copy of the magazine but here are a few extracts to be getting on with.

On whether Britain is better off in or out of the EU:

David Miliband: Let’s talk about the UK. The debate in the UK is often about these “monsters in Brussels” who want to take more power from Britain, or dominate decision-making. I wonder if you would echo my experience, which is that other Europeans don’t just want Britain to play a leading role in Europe, but they think Europe is better off with Britain playing a leading role.

José Manuel Barroso: I really think that. Probably rightly, I’ve been called an Anglophile. I believe that Europe without Britain at the heart will be less reform-driven, less open, less international Europe. That is why sometimes when I look at the debate in the UK, I ask myself: “How is it that this country is so open to the world, and apparently so closed to Europe?” It seems a contradiction.

DM: The debate inside the Conservative Party is now in some ways framed by the former defence minister Liam Fox, who said there should be “no terror” for Britain in leaving the European Union. What do you think life would be like for Britain outside the EU?

JMB: I will not comment on internal political matters, partisan matters of Britain. If and when there is a kind of revision, that’s up to the British to decide. What I can see from Brussels is that, and also from a European perspective, I find it a little bit ironic that some people are suggesting for Britain a role comparable to that of say Norway or Switzerland. Norway or Switzerland are two marvellous countries, I very much admire, the most advanced countries in the world in fact with great qualities of life. But I think Britain is expecting a bigger role in the world than small countries.

The fact that some are suggesting for Britain a role that is smaller than the one Britain already has today seems to me a little bit curious. When the prime minister of Britain meets the president of the United States, or the president of China, he has much stronger status and much stronger leverage because everybody knows that Britain is a country that is very influential in the shaping of European policy. The biggest integrated market in the world, the first economy in the world, the biggest donor of development assistance in the world . . .

DM: So in your estimation, the leaders in China have an enhanced relationship with Britain because they’re in the European Union?

JMB: I’ll put it frankly – Britain has more influence in China than Norway or Switzerland, with all respect for the other countries. And one of the reasons being that everyone in China knows that Britain is a decisive voice in the European policy and that its influence and its leverage, it is much bigger because of that.

On the dangers of extremism:

DM: Notwithstanding the Irish referendum result, it must worry you that there are fringe parties on right and left in a growing number of European countries which are arguing basically an anti-European case.

JMB: Yes, of course it worries me. I’ve already stated in the European Parliament that we should not forget that there are old demons in Europe – extreme nationalism, populism, xenophobia. You see in times of crisis that extremist forces, populist forces, have a better ground to oversimplify things and to manipulate feelings.

On the euro :

DM: You’re saying there are no circumstances in which a country could drop out of the euro?

JMB: I’m confident that it will not happen.

On the mutualisation of debt:

DM: Let’s look at one important part of what people perceive to be a banking union, which is some form of debt mutualisation.

JMB: Look, the point is the following: we are in favour of the mutualisation of debt. This will be indispensable if you want to keep a common currency. The reality is that this is not feasible immediately. We have to create the conditions for this to happen.

This week’s New Statesman is guest-edited by David Miliband. The issue focuses on shifts in world power, and includes contributions from, among others, Hillary Clinton, Kevin Rudd, Richard Branson, Tony Blair, Ed Miliband, David Walliams and Russell Brand.

Copies are available on the newsstands from Thursday 12 July and in the rest of the country from Friday 13 July. Single-issue copies can be purchased here.

Special Offer: Get 12 issues of New Statesman magazine for just £12

Tags: Eurocrisis

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35 comments

Thu, 2012-08-02 18:51 — Trojan W (not verified)

UK has no longer anything to do in the EU. This country is a huge tax-heaven whose elites are completly corrupted i.e. libor, murdoch and MP's expesses. The economy is agonizing in double dip recession, pound shrinking, huge trade deficit, exploding public debt after enormous bank bail out, one of the highest private debt, industry in tattes... Even their armee, diplomacy, and medias have been absorbed as Washington, Wall Street and Hollywood poodle (i.e. Trident, Iraq, News Corp...) And socialy, the country seems equally in dire straits: riots, obesity, tabloïd-culture, binge drinking... And they are still fussing around?

Can someone please tell them to feel free to leave?

Wed, 2012-07-18 14:01 — Goji (not verified)

Nice article..... interesting.
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Tue, 2012-07-17 19:41 — New statesman 2 (not verified)

You Little Englanders don't seem to be a very smart and ....useful bunch.

Fri, 2012-07-13 17:44 — Countdown to referendum (not verified)

Barroso wouldn't face a public meeting in the UK. Like most far cat bureaucrats he swaggers and dismisses to a tame audience, but truth will out.

The UK only has about 8-10% voting weight 'influence' in Europe, and can only really expect to opt-out of EU decisions with military implications.

Few people know that the EU gradually took over UK foreign policy after 1973; Case 22/70 confirmed that wherever the EU/EEC acquired an 'internal' policy, it had to have a foreign policy in that area to match it.

He's almost right on no country being able to drop out of the euro. Again under EU Law (case 6/64) once the EU has taken over a power from a country, that power stays at EU level. Therefore repatriation is a non-starter - unless that country leaves the EU.

It won't change, as the goals of the treaties are confirmedly to achieve further economic and political integration. Having to accept those goals is a price of EU membership, and continental politicians are more honest than Britain's about admitting that the common destination is a federal Europe, a country without internal frontiers.

Fri, 2012-07-13 10:58 — Mrs.Josephine Hyde-Hartley (not verified)

I'm sorry if it may seem the UK is closed to Europe. But this might have a lot to do with the quality of our mainstream media and political dialogue generally, I think.

We're trying to sort things out eg via Leveson ( NB ) and also via our current hung Parliament, which one understands may well create more, not less time for important debates.

In the meantime one wonders; just how has Mr.Barosso arrived at the word " closed" in this interview?

Is he using the word along the lines of that old adage; " put up and shut up " and/or perhaps; " closed shop" ? To my mind these are protectionist measures that might not be useful in the modern world..though of course we must adhere to ECHR generally, including traditional, even religious beliefs about what people either in association with each other or as individuals, normally do.

Fri, 2012-07-13 06:51 — Red Rain (not verified)

Judging by the comments, few are convinced by José Manuel Barroso foolish and ridiculous comment. Like many a Marxists before him; José Manuel Barroso has become fabulously wealthy from stifling bureaucracy and rampant institutionalized state corruption whilst the rest of us stand in line at the local charity soup kitchen.

Fri, 2012-07-13 06:28 — Stuart Eels (not verified)

"We are part of Europe but not of it, we are linked but not compromised. We are azssociated but not absorbed. If Britain must choose between Europe and the open sea, She must always choose the open sea."

What Sir Winston Churchill actually said about Europe, instead of the lies peddled by the EU. Heath lied and took us into a Trading Association with the full knowledge that the aim was a politically united Europe! We now see the dream turn into a nightmare and are told we are bad people for pointing it out.

Fri, 2012-07-13 11:13 — Robert Taggart

Blighty be 'all at sea' over its relationship to Europe !

Thu, 2012-07-12 22:31 — rawmaterial (not verified)

Sorry Mr. Baboso, Switzerland doesn't feel reduced at all by not participating to your loony and irrelevant EU project. I'm also wondering how reduced the Eurozone will feel when Switzerland will stop feeding euro by using a temporarly fixed CHF/EUR rate, which cost us, the swiss taxpayers, 60 billions CHF (!) per month. How will you feel reduced when the NBS will put all that huge amount of euro currency back on the market ? Hum ?? I suspect you'll fell so reduced that your head will stink as foot smell.

Thu, 2012-07-12 19:25 — niuqqz

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Thu, 2012-07-12 17:39 — Boudicca (not verified)

The 'rest of the world' doesn't dictate laws to us, or interfere in our domestic governance. The rest of the world doesn't require £50million a day for the privilege of having our Democracy subverted by a bunch of unelected foreign Kommissars.

The EU is an anti-Democratic, massively over-regulated, bureaucratic, inward-looking liability to the UK.

We would be vastly better off out of it and re-establishing our links with the Anglosphere and Commonwealth. The EU needs us more than we need it. It's bad luck for them that we've had enough of the scam and the likes of Barroso lecturing us whilst destroying the economies of Europe with their Euro obsession .

Farage is right - and as he said, Barroso has been wrong on every prouncement he has ever made about the Euro. Time for the UK to get out. Vote UKIP.

Thu, 2012-07-12 17:39 — Boudicca (not verified)

The EU is an anti-Democratic, massively over-regulated, bureaucratic, inward-looking liability to the UK.

Farage is right - and as he said, Barroso has been wrong on every prouncement he has ever made about the Euro. Time for the UK to get out. Vote UKIP.

Anthony (Little Englander and Proud)'s picture

Thu, 2012-07-12 17:10 — Anthony (Little Englander and Proud) (not verified)

Look hear , if it isn't the thuggish closet Maoist Barroso , whose policies are reducing European countries to third world status, yet somehow has the cheek to label us as being like Switzerland and Norway is somehow a downgrade for Britain, Yet these countries are some of the wealthiest and have the highest living standards in Europe . Does the Delusion of this man know no bounds.

As for David Miliband, softly, softly catchy monkey. Don't want to scupper any future job in the commission with some hard hitting questions do we.

Thu, 2012-07-12 15:54 — mimos (not verified)

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Thu, 2012-07-12 12:40 — WillG (not verified)

I pity the EU-philes. Their great dream laid bare, exposed to ridicule, with only the grasping aspirations of their political classes to protect them from the demon populism - or democracy as some of us prefer to call it.

There are a few assumptions behind Barroso's position which bear scrutiny:

1. "Britain has more influence as a member of the EU". This is hard to justify, except from a little-eurolander introspective. The EU may have more influence than Britain alone, but our membership in fact removes us from direct relevance – we are simply one vote among many, ultimately having to kowtow to the wider EU whether it suits our interests or not. The same argument made would have applied to Ireland a century ago – stay part of Britain or you will lose influence. I doubt they regret their choice.

2. 'Eurosceptics want Britain to be like Norway or Switzerland". No, The ambition of the Eurosceptics I know is for Britain, as one of world’s largest economies, to grow as a global trading nation, with less of an introverted euro-centric view. The GDP of the Eurozone is now less than that of the Commonwealth. Less than half of our foreign trade is with the EU, and declining, not to mention our 27 year trade deficit with Europe as opposed to our trade surplus with every other continent. It’s a big world out there, we are a big country, we don’t need to – and won’t – become a Norway, living under the shadow of EU whim.

3. 'Europe is better off with Britain playing a leading role". Why? For this be the case Britain would need to want to follow the same trajectory, to more federalism. This would necessitate a federalist Britain too, but of course there is no federalist Britain, there never has been, and for one to come into existence would require dramatic changes in the world of such magnitude that the basis of this entire discussion would be irrelevant.

4. "Britain is open to the world but closed to Europe". Again this is the narrow-minded little-eurolander speaking. Britain wants to be open to The World. Of course we may have to deal with EU protectionism, but given the £50bn p.a. trade deficit we run with the EU I would suggest they will continue to want to sell us things. As the EU declines in comparative relevance Britain's global links will grow in importance, but we want to be open to all.

Thu, 2012-07-12 17:15 — Anthony (Little Englander and Proud) (not verified)

Great piece and spot on ! I particularly liked the" little-eurolander"

Thu, 2012-07-12 13:34 — stoffel45 (not verified)

Well put - aren't you tired of the old EU saw of "We are the biggest trading bloc, we are the most important...."

Europe is of little consequence until it can compete in productivity with the USA and Japan and in value with the rest of Asia.

Thu, 2012-07-12 12:23 — Pollymolly (not verified)

"Outside Europe, Britain will be reduced to the role of a 'Norway or Switzerland'."

How is that a reduction, from my position on the Emerald Isle that would be a drastic improvement.

Britain should continue with its policy of one foot in, one foot out of Europe because full committal can only mean a reduced role and well the British body politic know it. The problem for the Continentals like Barosso is that they fail to understand this basic fact and continue to hammer away at the ridiculous further entrenching the British position.

Thu, 2012-07-12 12:04 — Francis Codjoe (not verified)

The British people don't need any lesson from Barroso about our membership of the European Union. Britain does not need to be in the EU to have any influence in the world. Being a Constitutional lawyer does not make you an expert on European integration. Had Barroso done his homework on European integration, he would have learnt that:
1 A British lawyer wrote about European integration - how it would develop, its character and future propsects - even before his hero, the ego-centric Jean Monnet, the Father of Europe , was born in 1888. This Briton stated that a confederation of European nations would develop through a great European crisis, and this European confederacy would become one of the major political features in history. He has been proved right, The EU evolved from the ashes of the Second world War. The Briton also warned England and Ireland would become provinces of Europe and they would not be saved if UK joined a political union of European nations. He has been proved right. EU laws take precedence over British and Irish laws. The Briton also described the EU - the "vile confederacy of the latter days". He has been vindicated. The EU is a corrupt project. Its accounts have not been approved for 17 consecutive years. The EU is anti-democratic. It does not respect the decisions of the voters.

2. The EU is doomed, because European leaders have ignored the crucial advice Schuman and Adenauer offered Europeans concerning concerning the survival of the European project.

According to Barroso, the EU is unique. And it is an experiment in economic and political integration that has become successful. He is WRONG. The EU was bound to develop to bring to pass what the Briton wrote about Europe and its future. Barroso has only a superficial understanding of the purpose of EU. He does not know the future of Europe. If everything the British lawyer wrote about the EU has come to pass, then it is reasonable to suggest what he published about Europe's future would also come to pass. We must heed his warning and leave the doomed European Titanic. No one can reform the EU. The euro may be saved, but the EU cannot be saved. Barroso needs education on EU.

Thu, 2012-07-12 12:04 — Francis Codjoe (not verified)

2. The EU is doomed, because European leaders have ignored the crucial advice Schuman and Adenauer offered Europeans concerning concerning the survival of the European project.

Thu, 2012-07-12 11:22 — Robert Taggart

Anything for a quiet life...
Norway, Switzerland - can Blighty join you ?!

Europe needs to restructure the assorted continent wide bodies - CE, EU, NATO, OSCE...
How about a European Union ? ! One body with several different 'moving parts' - Cultural, Defence, Economic (trade foremost), Financial / Fiscal, Legal (ECHR +)...
All European Nations would be members of this union, but, not necessarily of all the parts. A Europe A La Carte. Only by allowing such flexibility will tensions be reduced.

Thu, 2012-07-12 10:37 — blanctache (not verified)

Why are the comments so mindless? There used to be folk with a brain who read the Staggers, now it seems like the skins of the EDL and the BNP are the only readers left.

Thu, 2012-07-12 11:47 — Shamit123 (not verified)

Sorry - I am neither a member of the EDL and believe me BNP would not want me anyways - because I am British Asian.

But the only mindless comment on this entire post is yours probably - supporting two arrogant failed politicians who need a major reality check like yourself.

Thu, 2012-07-12 18:29 — Red Rain (not verified)

With our vibrant and cosmopolitan nation to we really need to be part of a stagnating none-entity that goes by the name of the European Union. Europe needs Britain but Britain doesn't need Europe. Besides what's wrong with Norway?

Thu, 2012-07-12 09:30 — Older Not Wiser (not verified)

They just don't get it do they? This unelected Eurocrat can't see we don't want to be part of a corrupt club that lines the nest of failed politicians who avoid tax on their pensions, bails out failed states with austerity imposed on the common man, is more crooked than most crime families, has never passed an audit and adds 10% to the cost of living in the UK for NO benefit what so ever.

UK needs this type of Europe like a hole in the head. The cost of having a voice is too high.... simple.

So back to Brussels mate and start reforming if you want our cash

Thu, 2012-07-12 07:05 — Herbert (not verified)

I've always been fascinated by Barroso's move from far left to right and have often wondered whether the CIA feel they got their money's worth.