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Now let the real battle begin

Julian Baggini

Published 22 May 2008

We need new ways to decide ethical issues

"I have deep respect for those who do not agree with some of the provisions in the bill because of religious conviction," wrote Gordon Brown the day before Monday's Commons vote on hybrid embryos. "But I believe that we owe it to ourselves and future generations to introduce these measures and, in particular, to give our unequivocal backing, within the right framework of rules and standards, to stem-cell research."

In those two sentences Brown managed to capture all that is wrong in how we approach public debates about bioethics.

Brown's words are typical of the way religious views are "respected", only so that they can then be ignored. The debate then proceeds on fatalistic, utilitarian premises: there is no other option; we have to do this for the greater good. Both these moves are not so much steps forward as sideways, avoiding the tough issues and disagreements.

Take the engagement with religion first. There is a curious implicit pact here, whereby atheists, agnostics and believers alike all accept that faith stands somehow to one side of rationality. The devout gain respect and immunity from rational prosecution, at the price of being excluded from intellectual debate. Non-believers get to keep the civic sphere entirely secular, at the price of having to back off from believers. At one level, this is right. Much religious belief is a matter of faith, as impervious to rational scrutiny as the Vatican is to women. However, when it comes to specific matters of morality, the idea that religious convictions need respect, not interrogation and defence, is absurd. The world's major religious texts have nothing to say about stem cells, not least because those words do not appear in any of them. It may be a matter of faith that Christ rose from the dead, but Christians have to defend anything they say about the first stages of life.

For example, in his Easter Sunday sermon, Cardinal Keith O'Brien quoted from a letter he and several other church leaders had signed: "This bill goes against what most people, Christian or not, reckon is common sense. The idea of mixing human and animal genes is not just evil. It's crazy!" It is not good enough, on reading this, simply to nod sympathetically and say, "I respect your view." For one thing, the respect is not reciprocated: scientists and supporters of the bill are being accused of doing great evil. What we should do is demand that the central claims be substantiated, which, in this case, they are not. As a matter of fact, opinion polls repeatedly show that most members of the public do approve of embryo research, interspecies or otherwise. More importantly, if anyone other than a church leader accused something of being evil and crazy, we would want to see some reasons why we should agree. Instead, we smile, and move on.

Once religion is set aside, the debate then tends to proceed in a crassly simplistic way. Most of the time, the argument is no more than the claim that the benefits of the research will be enormous, and therefore we must do it. But this is far too quick. Using the terminally ill for experiments might teach us things future generations will benefit from, but that doesn't mean we should do it.

Yet it suits people to stop the debate here, because the real issue is much more complex: What is the moral status of embryos? Bishops simply assert they are as precious as full-grown human beings, scientists avoid answering the question altogether, and between the two camps, the fundamental issue is passed over in silence.

This fudge suits the religious lobby more, for it leaves unchallenged the view that cells from which human beings grow are precious. A similar silence has occluded the morality of abortion for decades. But if we thought 14-day-old embryos and aborted foetuses were as fully human as we are, then no appeal to the balance of costs and benefits could justify their routine killing. People talk as though foetal life has an important moral status, but act as though it does not.

Artificial divide

The contradiction can be resolved in one of only two ways: either we agree the bishops were right all along, or we face the facts squarely and stop the pretence that anything growing in the womb is important, and as human, as a tiny baby. The latter need not lead us down a slippery slope where human life in general is granted less respect. Nor would it entail treating stem cells with no respect: it is good for us to practise reverence for life even if, on reflection, we do not always think it is worth preserving.

But how can we debate these deeply divisive issues, when people's fundamental convictions are so different? What is needed is a way to bring religious perspectives into public discourse without diluting the essentially secular nature of the public square. This might sound impossible, as it is too often assumed that a secular politics requires people to leave their religious beliefs behind them. But that is a mistake. Democratic politics in a pluralist age requires, not that people set aside their fundamental commitments, but that they discuss their differences in a common language. The absence of God will inform someone's opinions on morality, but one cannot expect arguments in public debate to carry any weight if they start with an assertion of atheism. Catholicism may inform someone's beliefs on birth control, for instance, but we cannot be expected to agree with them on the basis of what the Pope says.

What both sides must do is to make their case in terms the other can assess and understand. Arguments for stem-cell research need to appeal to facts about the actual, not imagined, nature of early embryos, as well as serious thought about the potential social consequences of entirely new ways of doing science. Arguments can also draw on religious insights, just as long as they do not assume any particular theological framework. One can talk about the need for humility, deep respect for human life and the dangers of hubris without invoking St John's Gospel.

The justifiable desire to keep religious dogma out of public life has led to an unjustifiable tendency to treat religious views as a whole as separable from civic life. It is in the interests of everyone, believer or not, to end this artificial divide and start a real intellectual tussle in which secular and sacred views battle it out, rationally and in the open.

Julian Baggini is editor of The Philosophers' Magazine

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25 comments from readers

stephanfowler
22 May 2008 at 18:51

Great article. A religious stance is a political engagement; it must fight it's corner like the rest of us. Democracy is the only process we have for accommodating competing claims. If that last statement appears idealistic, this illustrates that it is the democratic process itself that requires our attention and commitment, not the rights, exclusions or respect of a particular group. That goes right across the board, from religions communities to the BNP; if you shut people up, they just get angrier.

stephanfowler
22 May 2008 at 18:55

Succinct article. A religious stance is a political engagement; it must fight it's corner like the rest of us. Democracy is the only process we have for accommodating competing claims. If that last statement sounds idealistic, this suggests that the democratic process itself that requires our attention and our commitment. Not the rights, exclusions or respect of a particular group. That goes right across the board, from religions communities to the BNP; if you shut them up or dismiss them, they just get angrier.

mattclifton
22 May 2008 at 20:12

What an insightful article.

Sadly the most hubristic voices gain the most attention. We had the O'Briens on one side and the Toynbees on the other. In the moderate background, a host of reflective intellectuals interacted on all angles of the problem - in the Lords, the Wellcome Trust debate, the HFEA public consultation to name but a few. There was brilliance from both secular and religious thinkers.

There is a common language, because what binds us all is a desire for human flourishing. We all want what's best for the world, and if any faith is so heavenly minded that it doesn't, it simply won't get a hearing.

I would love to see Julian's hopes realised.

Allan Hayes
22 May 2008 at 21:53

Any assertions should be open to challenge, particularly ones with implications for public policy.

That's how we progress.

For an extended development of this approach see the excellent book "The Secular Conscience, why belief belongs in public life" by Austin Dacey

Sharkbat
23 May 2008 at 10:09

Interesting article.

I too would like to see "a real intellectual tussle in which secular and sacred views battle it out, rationally and in the open", if only in the hope that those with "faith" - i.e. belief without evidence - might come to see how irrational their beliefs really are. Unfortunately though it's very hard to have a rational discussion with someone who is fundamentally irrational.

Also, why can we not simply respect people's right to hold their beliefs without having to respect the beliefs themselves, which are clearly ridiculous?

johannine
23 May 2008 at 11:59

WEll there is nothing like having the debate after the fact, but lets get this straight a democracy is formed to protect the individual ,where we individually surrender a personalised right to the greater protections of the state

It is sad that democracy has become more about empowering an elite into serving the big buisness elete ,that the common wealth [and the common weal are subverted to serve a public service serving big buisness to do buisness as usual [while reaping that it didnt sew ,from the dumbed down voters.

Wheras govt is supposed to serve to preserve our lives it instead has served the elites who gave us aids via monkey virus supposedly to end the horror of polio

where it is meant to protect our peoples airs soils and waters it instead has privatised our very common wealth

The holy texts are specific [the koran says live begins with a clot of blood,[there is no blood visable on the cell [also not visable is the stray animal RNA that stays in the cell

Further that big buisness makes [it subvert to own][but it didnt make either the cell, nor the cell contents, [but guess what our public servants served their masyters and buisness lobby well [because they now own it all,

just like monsanto owns the genes of infiriour producing corn

[that does not even crop as well as traditional corn [now contaminating the old strains ,that is their genetic claim of right [by a test they invented along with the corn[they now own dna [

HUMAN DNA, thats called slavery, they sell it thats called ursury ,and the holy texts have much to say about the money changers [and those serving two masters

but as jesus said whith a sigh [it is done]

by their deeds do we know them

thus their unbelief cry's against them

We have removed god from govt? where was your queen [head of your british church, the british pope , to who much was given

perhaps too much

its a good thing god has mercy on all of us , this has certainly sorted the goats from the sheep

mattclifton
23 May 2008 at 21:07

Sharkbat, you have bought into a common, absurd misunderstanding of what religious faith is all about.

Concerning the HFE Bill, is this (see link), for example, the reflection of someone who is fundamentally irrational?

http://www.archbishopofcanterbury.org/1791

Carl Jones
24 May 2008 at 00:15

Yeh, we need new ways to decide ethical issues....lets have a NWO pre-programmed death date for everyone.....well, everyone outside the NWO elite. This is where we are heading!

andrew holden
24 May 2008 at 20:07

Brilliant article. Even believers need reasons. As a Christian I've never thought it good enough to say simply "God says" ! I don't believe that God is an arbitrary and irrational moral despot and he must therefore have reasons for his commands which we can assess with our God given rationality. So really a Christian can do ethics 'leaving God out of the picture' just as a Christian does science.

My faith, at least, is not 'believing without evidence' . I expect my faith to be a reasonable faith and, at very least, don't expect 'the evidence' to conflict with it.

rodmc
25 May 2008 at 12:04

There are many of us, even ardent secularists like myself who find the battle over abortion and genetics as one of "secular" vs "religious" as entirely unhelpful. Indeed while I support the womans right to chose, I do think abortion is often seen as an easy way out for some - note the use of some not majority. However the religious groups do need to become more rationale and open to criticism. At present they assume everyone on the other side is wrong, and often quite evil. Add to this the inability to engage in reasoned discussion and in no time you end up with either side becoming entrenched in their views, rather than seeking common ground. At this moment the ball of rational discussion is very much with the religious groups, so far though they have chosen to strike back with dogma and venom rather than reasoned debate and discussion.

taghioff.info
26 May 2008 at 05:45

@baggiani

But if we do as you suggest, Julian, then faith will go the way that Latour outlines and become spirituality.

Because the assertions that can stand up will be secular assertions, and the rest will be metaphysical references. So God will fade into a vague mystical omnipresence, and religion will be another solid that melts into air.

There is far too much money and power still at stake for the Religious Establishment to allow that to happen. Good luck, I agree with your sentiment.

Douglas Chalmers
26 May 2008 at 17:11

What is "deep respect"? Is it measured in millimetres - or in inches?

Douglas Chalmers
27 May 2008 at 05:39

Quote: ". The absence of God will inform someone's opinions on morality..."

I can't imagine that rationality any longer has a right to exclude a Creator ("god") given that the physicists have already accepted that there was an 'original creation' of the Universe with the Big Bang. The biologists still have some catching up to do, I guess? It is a long way from the creation of the universe to evolution on earth.

But as lond as we still have wars and famines, no-one is successfully "decid(ing) ethical issues" on this planet or in terms of the survival of the human race. Sadly, the one thing thta has remained unanswered in all of this is still the very same original question of all of philosophy. That is WHY do we exist?

It will not be until we give up our self-serving individualistic and rapacious ways that we will ever find the answer to that question. The Universe did, after all, have a reason for creating us. The most pitiful thing of all about the human race has been its utter inability to respond to its primary purpose for existence.

Instead of answering those fundamental questions, we seem to prefer to pretend that we are the creators in some ludicrous fashion and that we have control over the entire creation. That is, we still see ourselves as living on a flat Earth with everything revolving around us for our convenience.

donmargolis
27 May 2008 at 08:26

As an American, I am beyond surprised by the high quality of the article itself and most of the comments so far. If I may, I would like to present something rarely seen in these discussions: a non-religious, non-philosophical anti-embryonic argument, based strictly on science.

The embryonic movement is based on myth. Everything you think you know about embryonics is based on ten year old long-disproven guesses of what used to be scientists but are now members of an embryonic cult which is in business to avoid science so they can make billions.

"Embryonic stem cells (ESC) are pluripotent and therefore can become any and every human tissue"---the first myth that no one ever challenges, yet no one has even attempted to prove it in a lab nor has written one peer-reviewed published scientific paper proving this myth.

"Adult stem cells can't become anything but the one thing they were designed for." This was written in a standard lying ESC promoting article just last week in the USA---mandatory lies every time an American writes about embryonics. This one survives despite HUNDREDS of peer-reviewed published scientific papers proving the opposite. But in America these articles are prohibited by so-called scientific journals, so you will have to look to the British Journal of Haematology and elsewhere to find them. For in America, the principle of peer reviewed papers has been squashed by the embryonic cult.

There are seven more of these standard, never-proven, ofter disproven myths of embryology. How can ANYONE expect anything positive or truthful to come from this crowd of hoaxers?

emmagold
27 May 2008 at 12:41

I was very pleased that MPs voted both to retain the 24 week limit for abortion and to use hybrid embryos for research into diseases such as Parkinson's, Alzheimer's etc. I've never understood why people who CLAIM to be "pro-life" would oppose such research which would improve, or possibly even LENGTHEN, the lives of people with such conditions; surely opposing this is to be ANTI-life. Why campaign for the lives of foetuses (by opposing abortion) - the lives of foetuses are only POTENTIAL in view of the fact that they could be miscarried or stillborn - but NOT the lives of people who already exist?

Do anti-abortionists (I will NOT call them "pro-lifers") campaign against UNCHOSEN deaths of EXISTING people via, e.g., wars, post-code lotteries on life-saving drugs, dangerous/drunken driving, passive smoking etc? If not they have no right to call themselves "pro-lifers" and it's obvious, to me at least, that the only "lives" they are concerned for are those of foetuses.

Aiya-Oba
27 May 2008 at 15:25

Understanding the gluon and balancing role of morality in human conduct, society and all of nature, is the hyotenuse way to rightly harvest the collective essence of the secular and sacred sides of our humanity.

Equator of self-contadiction (gluon of pair), is the moral curvature and Absolute Logic of self-creation of Spacetime-continuum.

Although the very core value of Stem cell breakthrough is yet beclouded by controversies, I think it's the obligation of natural law philosphers to unviel to the general public, the actual common crux of religion, philosophy and science, in the discovery of embryonic Stem cell: the idea that the undifferentiated(single) state of cell, is the origin of the differentiated cells that give rise to multicellular life forms.

Stem cell principle offers the 21st century generation of humans, empirical glimpse into the never before seen common origin and single purpose of life, inspite of its numberless forms. Meaning is in sychronization. Morality is wavefunction,the good of all is the greatest good.-Aiya-Oba (Poet/Philosopher).

andrew holden
28 May 2008 at 07:33

On the contrarary I've never understood how anyone could be 'pro-abortion'. I accept it reluctantly as the last in a series of opportunities for choice - a choice far better exercised in responsible behaviour well before 24 weeks! I notice that most other 'civilized' nations in the West have a shorter period (12 or 18 weeks) of more liberal 'abortion on demand' before switching the focus from the woman's right to choose to the protection of the developing life. I think this approach has much more sense than our mute acceptance of inhuman late abortions (sometimes for selfish or trivial reasons).

emmagold
29 May 2008 at 00:20

As a man Andrew Holden will never have to experience an unwanted pregnancy except vicariously. It must be very satisfying to men's ego, and to their sense of "moral" rectitude, to dictate to women about what each individual one of us should do about an unwanted pregnancy.

Andrew Holden refers to "responsible behaviour [exercised] well before 24 weeks". I take it he includes MALE responsibility for being a participant in creating an unwanted pregnancy (by, for instance, not refusing to use a condom!) rather than placing all the responsibility on WOMEN!

He refers to "inhuman late abortions (sometimes for selfish or trivial reasons)". Why does he refer to such abortions as "inhuman"? (although one could take the implication that earlier abortions are NOT "inhuman"). As for "selfish or trivial reasons" what right has he, or ANYONE, to judge the reasons any individual woman may have for choosing abortion; at ANY stage of the pregnancy? Each unwillingly pregnant woman is the ONLY person who knows how she feels about this specific pregnancy and how being forced to continue it would affect her and any already-exisiting children.

Possible reasons for NEEDING a late (possibly even post-24 weeks) abortion include: being a young woman in denial about the pregnancy; being a middle-aged woman mistaking the symptoms for the onset of the menopause; the late discovery of a disability in the foetus (which it wasn't possible to discover earlier for medical reasons); the breakdown of a relationship when the woman felt she could only cope with caring for the baby with the help of her partner; having actually undergone a procedure, earlier in the pregnancy, which was INTENDED to be an abortion but which later turned out not to have been (you might think this was impossible but I read a case in my paper not long ago); similarly sterilisation procedures which didn't work; rape victims in denial about the pregnancy until it became too obvious to deny (bad enough to be raped, I hope everyone would agree, without becoming pregnant as well and as for then having to undergo labour (which, again, no MAN who condemns abortion will ever have to experience)... Some people say aborting a foetus conceived by rape is adding one wrong to another but the first wrong was done to the woman and the second "wrong" to the FOETUS).

If anti-choice people force continuation of pregnancy what do they think happens to the resultant baby? I imagine they would say it would be adopted but I doubt that now that so many people experiencing fertility problems opt for I.V.F., etc. So there are only two possibilities: for the unwillingly pregnant woman (and any partner) to bring the baby up or for the baby to be put into "Care". In the first case I imagine the mother/parents would be likely to abuse him/her emotionally, and/or physically, and/or sexually since she/they had no choice about first having him/her and then being forced to keep him/her; so that any frustration caused by his/her behaviour would, understandably in my opinion, lead to this reaction. In the second case the baby would experience an unloving childhood at least bad (I won't say best) and, at worst, also abuse of various kinds. These abuses, etc., would last throughout his/her childhood, and he/she would always be conscious that they were happening, whereas any pain foetuses (allegedly!) feel during the abortion is a one-off. In my opinion there are worse things than not existing.

I also noticed that there was no reply to my point about anti-choice people campaigning on issues of UNCHOSEN deaths (or, more accurately, denial of life). Does this mean they HAVE no reply to this/DON'T campaign on these issues? If so I am right in my suspicion that the ONLY lives about which they care are those of foetuses.

andrew holden
29 May 2008 at 13:01

Emma - what an over the top response and indeed overtly sexist response! I am content that abortion remains a possibility in every case where it is really necessary (and am even arguing for a more liberal law earlier in pregnancy!) - and I am certainly not going to sit in judgement over anyone that thinks abortion necessary in their case.

Neverthless the law has to get the difficult balance between the rights of the unborn and the rights of women. My personal view is that an earlier more liberal regime (say pre-16 weeks) and a more restictive (not banning but requiring major foetal abnormality or serious medical issues for the mother) would get the balance right much better than a regime that makes medical staff strive to save the life of one baby delivered naturally at 23 weeks and despatch another aborted at the same term.

Your point about anti-choice people is disingenuous. We can argue for ever about what to call people - the fact remains that most of those who wish (for all sorts of reasons not all of them religious) to reform the existing law ARE involved in many different 'pro-life' campaigns from the anti-war movement to issues of justice and third world development.

And, of course, men have a shared responsibility for unwanted pregnancy and need to face up to it - most do! Nothing in my careful post suggested otherwise. Sadly, as I am sure your know, some women wish to restrict men's rights in this whole area simply to paying the bills.

emmagold
30 May 2008 at 02:38

Andrew, I'm sorry if you thought my comment was over-the-top but reproductive rights is an issue about which I feel very strongly. It was not intended to be sexist; as a feminist I would NEVER be intentionally sexist. But the inescapable fact remains that it is WOMEN, not men, who experience pregnancy and, ESPECIALLY, childbirth/labour which (I understand; having opted never to experience it personally) is extremely painful. The reason I was able to opt out of this is that I was able to take the Pill for over 25 years, until menopause, whereas not all women can; in fact there used to be, and may still be, a Pill Victims' Action Group. Why should women have to choose (if that's the appropriate word!) between taking medication which may harm them, possibly seriously, and experiencing an unwanted pregnancy and subsequent labour?

You mention "the difficult balance between the rights of the unborn and the rights of women" but, as I pointed out before, "the unborn" can be miscarried or stillborn whereas women already exist. If you were (as, for all I know, you are) an obstetrician and you came across a situation in which you had to choose between saving the life of a labouring women or that of the baby which would you choose? How would you "get the balance right"? whose life would you consider more important and valid?

"Sadly some women wish to restrict men's rights in this whole area to paying the bills"; my view is that once a baby is born both parents have rights AND RESPONSIBILITIES towards him/her but, at the risk of being accused of sexism, I feel strongly that while the foetus is still in utero only the WOMAN has the right to say what should happen about this foetus because it is in HER body.

A fundamental human right, surely, is to have jurisdiction over what happens to one's own body; this is, or should be, one of the reasons rape and other forms of sexual assault are illegal (and, of course, the vast majority of victims of this are GIRLS AND WOMEN). I imagine (CERTAINLY hope) most people would condemn THIS violation of an individual girl/woman's right to autonomy over her body; I do realise that the issue of abortion is different in that there is a foetus but if society is THAT bothered about the welfare of foetuses it would be illegal for pregnant women to drink, or to eat anything which might harm the foetus, or to smoke (and, indeed, there would be a smoking ban in the vicinity of all pregnant women since foetuses are also affected by PASSIVE smoking on the part of pregnant women). There would probably also be other laws, all of which would be condemned by libertarians, but if we're THAT concerned for foetuses they would be brought in. Why should it ONLY be unwillingly pregnant women who are expected to consider the welfare of foetuses?

andrew holden
30 May 2008 at 10:12

Emma, I don't disagree, in principle, with a great deal of what you have written, There are many good reasons why even very late abortion may, sadly, be necessary and I have no problem with that. If, as you seem to be suggesting, the woman's right to choose is the most paramount, however, it should lead, in law, to women being able to choose to end a pregnancy for any reason whatsoever, right up to full term. I can see the logic of it - but don't believe that our society is that uncaring and would wish to have such a unrestricted abortion law. Of course the rights of the foetus don't trump the rights of the women either so a balanced consideration of risks and rights is necessary. I still believe that in general we still have the balance wrong and wish to see a legal framework which would protect the most vulnerable (whether that's the unborn child or the mother) as appropriate. That would probably liberalise the law up to,say, 16 weeks but make it much more restrictive (though not impossible where there is good reason) later in pregnancy.

Although I have lots of sympathy with your points about power and controI I totally reject the idea that this is merely a feminist issue - actually it is a humanitarian one. It may be 'your body' but if you have chosen to produce a new life there has to be a sensible point at which you recognise that you can't just rescind that choice merely for trivial reasons. Note that this view leaves choice and control where it belongs. You either choose to get pregnant and/or choose to continue the pregnancy through those early weeks when you have the right to end it .

I humbly suggest that, apart from extreme cases which can still be dealt with compassionately, 5 months is long enough for almost anyone to sort out what they think about a pregnancy and exercise their choice. After that point I believe (and that belief is nothing to do either with being a man or with any specific religion) that society should favour (and only that) the right to life rather than the right of choice - and in extreme, sometimes even very late on, cases of need the women's right to life would still therefore trump the more uncertain life of the foetus.

emmagold
31 May 2008 at 03:30

Andrew; you say "if you have chosen to produce a new life..." and I might agree that in that case "you can't just rescind that choice for trivial reasons" (though I would be interested in a definition of "trivial"). But most women seeking abortion have NOT "chosen to produce a new life"; they are victims of one of the following: contraceptive failure or not realising they needed contraception (middle-aged women uncertain of their menopause status and - obviously much more in need of compassion - rape victims). Or being unable, for medical reasons, to take an effective contraceptive such as the Pill (or actually using the Pill but having to take medication which counteracts the effect of this and not realising so not taking additional precautions). These are just the situations which occurred to me off the top of my head over a period of a few minutes; there are probably many more.

In any case even if a woman/couple HAS "chosen to produce a new life" circumstances at any stage of the pregnancy may make her/them decide that - FOR HER/THEM - it is impossible to continue with the pregnancy. We are all individuals with our own individual ability to cope, or not, with any situation; no one has the right to say that because HE/SHE could cope everyone else in the same situation should be forced to do so.

Even when abortion was totally illegal that didn't mean no abortions took place. If a woman is desperate enough to rid herself of her foetus - if she feels strongly enough that she can't bear its presence in her body - she will manage to abort it even if it means going to an unhygienic and dangerous "back-street" abortionist where she would also risk her own life. NO legislation will completely protect "unborn children"; women will always demand autonomy over our bodies and reproductive functions.

andrew holden
31 May 2008 at 09:44

Emma, nothing you have written contradicts what I've already said. Choice is exercised not just in a choice to get pregnant (which may not have been actively taken) but also in the choice to continue the pregnancy. Circumstances may indeed change - but I think I covered that already in what I've written and I don't disagree except that there is a point at which it has to go beyond any 'strong feelings' the woman may have to society itself protecting the most vulnerable from feelings which, despite their strength, may actually be judged (by that whole society) to be wrong.

Very few people, it seems to me, are really in favour of abortion on demand right up to the end of pregnancy. Basing law on the requirement to protect life, both foetal and maternal, rather than on some inflated view of choice would not only protect the unborn but also the lives of women who really cannot proceed with a pregnancy. We perhaps only differ in that I believe that choice can't be left just to the individual.

Incidentally, thank you for this debate. I think it illustrates the need for people of different ethical persuasions to try to argue rationally rather than emotively from sincerely held beliefs (whether christian or feminist or some other). That was, after all, what Julain Bagginni was writing about!

Gerald Kennally
03 June 2008 at 11:39

Julian Baggini’s reflections on the position of secularists and the religious with respect to issues surrounding the start of human life are timely.

As an atheist who was brought up a Catholic, I thought I had some understanding of the views of that group of believers. Now I’m not so sure. I would be interested in the comments of Catholics who oppose the legalisation of embryo research to the issue as I set it out below. In this I attempt to reason as far as possible from premises that Catholics would agree with.

I think it should be borne in mind throughout that Catholic morality is not humanistic. It does not attempt to derive its maxims from beliefs about the temporal welfare of humans. They come from God and only because of this are they held to be for the (eternal) welfare of humans.

The fundamental break between Catholics and non-believers, is the Catholic belief that being human is a property that transcends the material world and depends on the possession of a soul (immortal etc.). This is why there has to be a particular point at which a foetus becomes human. There may be some dispute as to when this is, as Lisa Jardine suggests in her interview. However there must be a specific instant at which the soul enters the foetus, and this is the point at which human life begins. In general killing a foetus after this point is (transcendentally) murder exactly as if one were to kill a (blameless) adult.

So why is it sinful to kill?

It is sinful to kill because God has commanded that we should not kill. The Catholic church is not a humanistic institution that follows a consequentialist morality. Its views are derived from what it takes to be God’s commandments.

Furthermore it has never shown great revulsion at the idea of killing, as long as the killing is lawful according to God’s law: in war, executions etc. For this reason, the look of the foetus is actually irrelevant, so the appeals to thumb sucking, apparent reactions to pain (again not something the church as been terribly opposed to) are purely sentimental factors, as is the opposed point of those in favour of stem cell research etc. that, in the very early stages this is just a few cells. If it has a soul it is human and killing it is murder. Otherwise it isn’t.

This, however, puts abortion on the same footing as adultery, taking the name of the lord in vain and coveting one’s neighbour’s ass. They are sins and should be condemned by all Catholics, but all except a few Catholics believe it does not follow that the state should use its machinery to outlaw these activities. Any Catholic argument in favour of making abortion or embryo research illegal should apply equally to keeping holy the Sabbath day.

We need Catholics to tell us why, if they would prosecute researchers who use human embryos, they allow those who fail to honour their fathers and mothers to get away scot free.

Gerald Kennally

Janelet
09 June 2008 at 12:04

Do any of you know of someone who would be willing to be interviewed regarding their non religious anti stem cell perspective? I am making some stimulus material for school children (14 year olds)

Jane

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