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Who's afraid of Michael Moore?

John Pilger

Published 18 October 2007

John Pilger argues the spirit and humanity of Moore's film-making shames the supine American media. Brian Cathcart on how good journalism can be both right and wrong plus Michael Moore: hero or villain?

In Sicko, Michael Moore's new film, a young Ronald Reagan is shown appealing to working-class Americans to reject "socialised medicine" as commie subversion. In the 1940s and 1950s, Reagan was employed by the American Medical Association and big business as the amiable mouthpiece of a neo-fascism bent on persuading ordinary Americans that their true interests, such as universal health care, were "anti-American".

Watching this, I found myself recalling the effusive fare wells to Reagan when he died three years ago. "Many people believe," said Gavin Esler on the BBC's Newsnight, "that he restored faith in American military action [and] was loved even by his political opponents." In the Daily Mail, Esler wrote that Reagan "embodied the best of the American spirit - the optimistic belief that problems can be solved, that tomorrow will be better than today, and that our children will be wealthier and happier than we are".

Such drivel about a man who, as president, was responsible for the 1980s bloodbath in central America, and the rise of the very terrorism that produced al-Qaeda, became the received spin. Reagan's walk-on part in Sicko is a rare glimpse of the truth of his betrayal of the blue-collar nation he claimed to represent. The treacheries of another president, Richard Nixon, and a would-be president, Hillary Clinton, are similarly exposed by Moore. Just when there seemed little else to say about the great Watergate crook, Moore extracts from the 1971 White House tapes a conversation between Nixon and John Erlichman, his aide who ended up in prison. A wealthy Republican Party backer, Edgar Kaiser, head of one of America's biggest health insurance companies, is at the White House with a plan for "a national health-care industry". Erlichman pitches it to Nixon, who is bored until the word "profit" is mentioned.

"All the incentives," says Erlichman, "run the right way: the less [medical] care they give them, the more money they make." To which Nixon replies without hesitation: "Fine!" The next cut shows the president announcing to the nation a task force that will deliver a system of "the finest health care". In truth, it is one of the worst and most corrupt in the world, as Sicko shows, denying common humanity to some 50 million Americans and, for many of them, the right to life.

The most haunting sequence is captured by a security camera in a Los Angeles street. A woman, still in her hospital gown, staggers through the traffic, where she has been dumped by the company (the one founded by Nixon's backer) that runs the hospital to which she was admitted. She is ill and terrified and has no health insurance. She still wears her admission bracelet, though the name of the hospital has been thoughtfully erased.

Later on, we meet that glamorous liberal couple, Bill and Hillary Clinton. It is 1993 and the new president is announcing the appointment of the first lady as the one who will fulfil his promise to give America a universal health-care. And here is "charming and witty" Hillary herself, as a senator calls her, pitching her "vision" to Congress. Moore's portrayal of the loquacious, flirting, sinister Hill ary is reminiscent of Tim Robbins's superb political satire Bob Roberts. You know her cynicism is already in her throat. "Hillary," says Moore in voice-over, "was rewarded for her silence [in 2007] as the second-largest recipient in the Senate of health-care industry contributions".

Moore has said that Harvey Weinstein, whose company produced Sicko and who is a friend of the Clintons, wanted this cut, but he refused. The assault on the Democratic Party candidate likely to be the next president is a departure for Moore, who, in his personal campaign against George Bush in 2004, endorsed General Wesley Clark, the bomber of Serbia, for president and defended Bill Clinton himself, claiming that "no one ever died from a blow job". (Maybe not, but half a million Iraqi infants died from Clinton's medieval siege of their country, along with thousands of Haitians, Serbians, Sudanese and other victims of his unsung invasions.)

Deft and dark

With this new independence apparent, Moore's deftness and dark humour in Sicko, which is a brilliant work of journalism and satire and film-making, explains - perhaps even better than the films that made his name, Roger and Me, Bowling for Columbine and Fahrenheit 9/11 - his popularity and influence and enemies. Sicko is so good that you forgive its flaws, notably Moore's romanticising of Britain's National Health Service, ignoring a two-tier system that neglects the elderly and the mentally ill.

The film opens with a wry carpenter describing how he had to make a choice after two fingers were shorn off by an electric saw. The choice was $60,000 to restore a forefinger or $12,000 to restore a middle finger. He could not afford both, and had no insurance. "Being a hopeless romantic," says Moore, "he chose the ring finger" on which he wore his wedding ring. Moore's wit leads us to scenes that are searing, yet unsentimental, such as the eloquent anger of a woman whose small daughter was denied hospital care and died of a seizure. Within days of Sicko opening in the United States, more than 25,000 people overwhelmed Moore's website with similar stories.

The California Nurses Association and the National Nurses Organising Committee despatched volunteers to go on the road with the film. "From my sense," says Jan Rodolfo, an oncology nurse, "it demonstrates the potential for a true national movement because it's obviously inspiring so many people in so many places."

Moore's "threat" is his unerring view from the ground. He abrogates the contempt in which elite America and the media hold ordinary people. This is a taboo subject among many journalists, especially those claiming to have risen to the nirvana of "impartiality" and others who profess to teach journalism. If Moore simply presented victims in the time-honoured, ambulance-chasing way, leaving the audience tearful but paralysed, he would have few enemies. He would not be looked down upon as a polemicist and self-promoter and all the other pejorative tags that await those who step beyond the invisible boundaries in societies where wealth is said to equal freedom. The few who dig deep into the nature of a liberal ideology that regards itself as superior, yet is responsible for crimes epic in proportion and generally unrecognised, risk being eased out of the "mainstream", especially if they are young - a process that a former editor once described to me as "a sort of gentle defenestration".

None has broken through like Moore, and his detractors are perverse to say he is not a "professional journalist" when the role of the professional journalist is so often that of zealously, if surreptitiously, serving the status quo. Without the loyalty of these professionals on the New York Times and other august (mostly liberal) media institutions "of record", the criminal invasion of Iraq might not have happened and a million people would be alive today. Deployed in Hollywood's sanctum - the cinema - Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 shone a light in their eyes, reached into the memory hole, and told the truth. That is why audiences all over the world stood and cheered.

What struck me when I first saw Roger and Me, Moore's first major film, was that you were invited to like ordinary Americans for their struggle and resilience and politics that reached beyond the din and fakery of the American democracy industry. Moreover, it is clear they "get it" about him: that despite being rich and famous he is, at heart, one of them. A foreigner doing something similar risks being attacked as "anti-American", a term Moore often uses as irony in order to demonstrate its dishonesty. At a stroke, he sees off the kind of guff exemplified by a recent BBC Radio 4 series that presented humanity as pro- or anti-American while the reporter oozed about America, "the city on the hill".

Whiny jealousies

Just as tendentious is a documentary called Manufacturing Dissent, which appears to have been timed to discredit, if not Sicko, then Moore himself. Made by the Canadians Debbie Melnyk and Rick Caine, it says more about liberals who love to face both ways and the whiny jealousies aroused by tall poppies. Melnyk tells us ad nauseam how much she admires Moore's films and politics and is inspired by him, then proceeds to attempt character assassination with a blunderbuss of assertions and hearsay about his "methods", along with personal abuse, such as that of the critic who objected to Moore's "waddle" and someone else who said he reckoned Moore actually hated America - was anti-American, no less!

Melnyk pursues Moore to ask him why, in his own pursuit of an interview with Roger Smith of General Motors, he failed to mention that he had already spoken to him. Moore has said he interviewed Smith long before he began filming. When she twice intercepts Moore on tour, she is rightly embarrassed by his gracious response. If there is a renaissance of documentaries, it is not served by films such as this.

This is not to suggest Moore should not be pursued and challenged about whether or not he "cuts corners", just as the work of the revered father of British documentary, John Grierson, has been re-examined and questioned. But feckless parody is not the way. Turning the camera around, as Moore has done, and revealing great power's "invisible government" of manipulation and often subtle propaganda is certainly one way. In doing so, the documentary-maker breaches a silence and complicity described by Günter Grass in his confessional autobiography, Peeling the Onion, as maintained by those "feigning their own ignorance and vouching for another's . . . divert[ing] attention from something intended to be forgotten, something that nevertheless refuses to go away".

For me, an earlier Michael Moore was that other great "anti-American" whistleblower, Tom Paine, who incurred the wrath of corrupt power when he warned that if the majority of the people were being denied "the ideas of truth", it was time to storm what he called the "Bastille of words" and we call "the media". That time is again overdue.

www.johnpilger.com

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51 comments from readers

Cybertiger
18 October 2007 at 14:43

A rampant contagion is being spread from the United dung heap of America.

Read this article by Seumas Milne in 'The Guardian' today,

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,,2193282,00.html

... and weep ... for the sickness that is being spread by the champion dung spreaders ...

Scooter
18 October 2007 at 14:52

Let me see, it takes twelve years of higher education to become a doctor and if you make something “free” it will be used much more. The short-sighted seekers of government provided utopia think removing the profit motive from future doctors and increasing the demand on those future doctors is going to produce quality medicine. Someone please explain to me how this conflicting dynamic is going to play out.

Also, from one of my economics classes; fast, quality or cheap... pick the two you want because you can never have all three.

taghioff.info
18 October 2007 at 15:14

Scooter:

Are you arguing we shouldn't use doctors?

You must be an American.

DarylS
18 October 2007 at 15:31

It is so refreshing to read something positive written about Michael Moore. Sometimes he may seem sensationalist, but I would suggest that to read or hear honest words in the media nowadays gives such a jolt as to make them seem sensationalist. The likes of Moore should be praised in spite of their faults, because if Americans hear anything that contradicts the tripe they see on Fox or CNN then it has to be for the good.

DarylS
18 October 2007 at 15:40

Scooter:

I take it that by fast you mean in and out of the door quicker? In that case I think that the dilemma you set is a no-brainer, I'd like to be well before I am turfed out the door.

I know that this is a cliched argument, but the Cuban system is cheaper, and of a far better quality than the US system, and if you look at the amount of paper-work that an American doctor has to do nowadays just to give a patient a basic prescription I think we can even stretch to say that the Cubans trump the Americans on speed too.

Scooter
18 October 2007 at 15:54

DarylS, in assessing Cuba's Health Care System as far better quality, what is that based on and how can I objectively verify your conclusion? Does Cuba provide organ transplants and other advanced surgical techniques?

Also, I am confused at your response to my posting fast, quality or cheap. Are you implying we can have all three? Are you saying we need cheap and fast service, or expensive fast service, or cheap and slow... which one?

How about the medical demand increase while the profit motivation to become a doctor decreases, what do you think about that?

Scooter
18 October 2007 at 16:12

DarylS, My last visit to the doctor I was penciled in the next day at 1:00 pm because I was concerned I was coming down with something and didn't want to pass it on to my pregnant wife. I arrived, the receptionists were on lunch and Dr. D signed me in, diagnosed my ailment, called in the prescription, and all of this occurred in less than 20 minutes. That's fast!!!!!!

DarylS
18 October 2007 at 16:28

The Cuban system first and foremost does not prejudice against those who are not fortunate enough to have health insurance provided.

Cuba's infant mortality rate is 5 deaths per thousand compared to 7 per thousand in the US.

In response to final paragraph of your posting; Cuba has nearly twice as many doctors with 5.91 doctors per thousand people compared to 2.56 doctors per thousand in the States. They provide 1 doctor for every 120 people (and they earning the equivalent to $15-20 per month).

From my health service I expect:

-Medical staff to be able to designate all of the time necessary for me to recover no matter how long that may take. I do not want them to rush.

-I want to know that if I lose my job and then get knocked off my bike that I am not gonna have to worry about paying my health care costs. I don't want it expensive.

What good is an organ transplant for those 18, 000 Americans who die each year because they didnt have health insurance?

ReaganLivesOn
18 October 2007 at 16:43

Since Ronald Reagan is no longer with us and can't defend himself, I thought I'd paste a line from his famous 1964 "Rendezvous with Destiny" speech:

"Yet anytime you and I question the schemes of the do-gooders, we are denounced as being against their humanitarian goals. They say we are always "against" things, never "for" anything. Well, the trouble with our liberal friends is not that they are ignorant, but that they know so much that isn't so."

Pilger, stop trying to rewrite history. Reagan is going down in history as the best president in our lifetimes as well he should. And your unsubstantiated rants are not going to change that.

And congrats on New Statesman hero #4! You are in good company with Hugo Chavez as number 11. What a joke!

Cybertiger
18 October 2007 at 17:03

Scooter, the libbertarian

"I was concerned I was coming down with something and didn't want to pass it on to my pregnant wife."

Oh no, too late ... you've passed it on ... yet another American ... to pollute, plunder and infect the planet with "the finest health care".

Cybertiger
18 October 2007 at 17:10

Scooter, the libberator

"I arrived, the receptionists were on lunch and Dr. D signed me in, diagnosed my ailment, called in the prescription, and all of this occurred in less than 20 minutes. That's fast!!!!!!"

Wrong diagnosis!!!!! A 20 minute brain transplant ... that would have been cheaper, and a quality prescription.

Scooter
18 October 2007 at 18:16

DarylS, it is certainly a useful tool to inflame peoples’ emotions in order to shut down their logical thought processes.

Does Cuba have as many babies born with fetal alcohol syndrome, or crack babies... you know – those vices that many of our nations “poor” can afford in addition to having kids they can’t afford? Because, I have a feeling we deliver FARRRRR more high risk pregnancies and the ones that don’t make it count towards reducing our infant mortality rate.

You say Cuba has more doctors per citizen than we do, but; are those doctors as well educated as ours? Because I have a feeling they are not and that would make their system fast and cheap.

Fast, cheap or expensive, pick the two you want.

Also DarylS, you could have saved yourself the time of typing all those things you expect from your health service by simply saying the following: DarylS expects other “free” people to dedicate their time and energy towards diligently tending to his medical needs and in exchange they will receive whatever wage the government says.

GideonPolya
18 October 2007 at 21:59

Excellent article. People such as Mike Moore and those running and contributing to North American Alternative media such as Counterpunch, CommonDreams, Democracy Now and Canada-based MWC News are a like a breath of fresh air compared to the lying, racist, holocaust-ignoring American and indeed Western Mainstream media.

Thus Mike Moore can reveal that 18,000 Americans die each year because they are denied hospital admission. MWC News reveals that 20,000 under-5 year old AMERICAN infants die avoidably EACH YEAR due to Bush War on Terror priorities of killing Muslim children. Thus simply Google "UNICEF" and you will quickly discover that 0.5 million under-5 year old Indigenous infants die each year in the Occupied Iraqi and Afghan Territories - that's 1,300 daily or ONE PER MINUTE, 90% avoidable and due to gross, war criminal US Alliance violation of the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War which unequivocally demands that an Occupying Power does everything it can "to the fullest extent of the means available to it" to keep its Conquered Subjects ALIVE by provision of life-sustaining medical and food requisites.

WHO informs us that "total annual per capita medical expenditure" permitted by the war criminal US Alliance in the Occupied Iraqi and Afghan Territories" is a genocidal $135 and $19, respectively as compared to $2,560 (UK), $3,123 (Australia) and $6,096 (US).

Yet lying, racist, holocaust-ignoring American and indeed Western Mainstream media will simply NOT report these appalling realities that are readily discovered by addressing the latest top medical literature and WHO, UNICEF and other UN agency reports - it is all up to humanitarians such as Mike Moore and his ilk and Alternative media such as MWC News.

Thus recently the top UK ORB market analysis company reported 1.2 million post-invasion excess VIOLENT deaths in Occupied Iraq (this being consonant with the estimate of top US medical epidemiologists published in the top medical journal The Lancet). This was reported by the UK Guardian and Observer and the US Los Angeles Times but essentially IGNORED by everyone else as were subsequent expert, authoritatively-sourced estimates published in Countercurrents, UK Media Lens and MWC News that post-invasion excess deaths (upper estimates) total 2 million (Occupied Iraq), 3.2 million (Occupied Afghanistan), 3.9 million (Iraq 1990-2007) and 8 million (the Bush I plus Bush II Asian Holocaust).

Viva Mike Moore, his Aussie-UK equivalent, the New Statesman's John Pilger and the Alternative media such as MWC News, Countercurrents, CommonDreams, Democracy Now and the UK's Media Lens who attempt to tell the truth to a Western world brainwashed and deceived by lying, racist, holocaust-ignoring, Bush-ite Mainstream media.

Ergo
19 October 2007 at 04:03

Sometimes words just won't do it. On this post you hav people arguing against their own self-interest. I have quite a few American relatives and I'm here to tell you that "if" their doctors are better educated and/or talented that factor is easily nullified by the HMO factor. There is no doubt that Cuba is in every significant way a better country than the US, and they did it against the current, having been threatened, attacked, embargoed by the US. When will words like, socialism, commie, welfare etc., lose their power?People are still mesmerized by them and unable to think clearly.

Lazinello
22 October 2007 at 13:08

Being a german citizen, I can report that the former socalled socialist -lead Schroeder government had already begun, what the now-in-power Merkel cabinet with yet the very same minister of health, is continuing to dismantle. A health-system with admittedly major flaws, but all the same with high standards in every aspect, is being run into the ground with an obvious outcome : when for example in one year consecutive to the 'reforms' cuts into services valued at 4 billion € were simply devoured by the inflationary rise of the prices of prescriptive drugs.

An appeal to the drugs-industry to restrict the rise to a moderate adjustment was all the government let itself down to.

I can see it coming for us in Germany , what Micheal Moore has pictured in his film.

Carl Jones
22 October 2007 at 21:38

I am supprised that Pilger can`t see through Mr Moore. I must state that I am a HUGE fan of John Pilger.

I`ve got Mr Moore`s books and DVD`s. Much of what he says is true. But Moore`s journalism is very controlled. In 911 he never gets to the point where he has Republicans cancelling their party membership. In Bowling for Clumbine he tells part of the story, he fails to mention the unaccounted adult who was in the Columbine school. Gun ownership has not fallen, the gun lobby is as strong as ever.

If one assumes that Moore uses only half of the material/evidence which comes his way and I`m sure that John Pilger has the same problem, then you can see that Moore could be working for the Republicans/neocons.

Sure, the US healthcare system is a mess. I know from talking to Americans there is REAL anger in the US. But Moore`s "Sicko (I`ve not seen it) is more likely to increase profit opportunities for corporate Amerika. The numbers are all over the place...30, 40, 50, 60 million Americans who have NO ACCESS to any form of US healthcare....that is a huge untapped market and the US elite knows that many middle class Americans can afford more, as many of their employers are footing their medical bills.

I`ll tell you what I think has brought about Moore`s film...pictures from Katrina...New Orleans and in particular, a tall black man who looked like he didn`t know what a doctor was, and his teeth were worse than that of the actor who played Saddam in the hole, court and hanging. These images and in particular the black guy are etched on the minds of people all over the world and most in countries much poorer that the USofA....how much longer, I wonder?

I don`t know if Moore is doing this as a NWO employee, but I used to get his newsletter and I forwarded similar ideas that I have put above....I had no reply and they terminated the newsletter.

Its a real shame Mr Moore doesn`t tackle the Democrats weakness in opposition...given the staggering evidence which they could use against Bush and the US "hardright" elite. In the US mid-term elections, many Americans were hopeful that Bush could be held in check....Polosi might as well be Bush`s sister....no one has tried to shoot Moore....enough said, he`s doin a dandy job.

southern cross
22 October 2007 at 22:26

Anyone who speaks out about how the capitalist system is pricing health care beyond the reach of the average working person needs to be congratulated.

So congrats to MM!!

In Australia we watch with trepidation the debacle of the American system because ours seems to be racing in the same direction. You can still have relatively free hospital treatment - if you are still alive when your turn from the waiting list comes up. Otherwise you can go private and pay your thousands straight up.

Carl Jones
23 October 2007 at 00:25

Leoni...

....you just made my point, Ausralia and the UK are racing towards the void...and the US is coming out the other side and wondering, "how can we increase the margin"? With so many out of healthcare...this is an untapped source of profit....much like sub-prime!!

Mr Moore is an unknown quantity. History might tell us while we are still alive, but until then, be careful of putting the ring in your nose and being led to slaughter.

You will note this is my first reply to a Pilger story on this site and I`m careful about being critical of someone so great. Pilger is right 99.999% of the time and that beats Bradman and so did an Aboriginal bowler.

angela koretth
23 October 2007 at 05:04

I've always appreciated John Pilger as a painstaking journalist who visits and revisits the far flung corners of the globe and scrupulously documents his data. So i'd go along with his vews on Sicko tho i've not yet had the chance to see it here in India. Another reason might be that i've seen Michael Moore's other documentaries and agreed with their general thrust. He's certainly more worthwhile than the mainstream media "pundits" in the US who always make me wonder how they got to be where they are?!! Are all the channels owned by braindead folk who are also parochial, jingoistic and totally unaware of their own history (forget everyone else's)?

Carl Jones
23 October 2007 at 11:48

angela, the US/UK media is owned, or controlled by Jews...most are what I term "elite Jews"....I can hear the cries, "ANTI-SEMITIC".lol

This is not anti-semitism....if the US/UK media were owned, or controlled by Ugandans to the same extent as current Jewish control, they`d be riots in the streets.

In the UK, we have had government dominated by Scotts and many English folk are right to be concerned. You wonder why our media/news is so bad, so stilted and i haven`t even started with Hollywood. Of the five massive US media corporations, they are either owned by Jews, or are awash with well placed executives. The same argument can be leveled at the UK media. I think there is one national (serious) paper which is not in Jewish hands. Its a problem which needs to be looked at. Our media is majorly biased towards the US and Israel...this is a sad fact and it is upsetting a lot of people around the world...of course, you`d not hear much of this in the US/UK media, so no doubt many of you are so blinkered that many you can`t even begin to examin the issues.

Harry
24 October 2007 at 04:35

How silly it is to compare Cuba's health service to Americas. Its like comparing the two worst and trying to draw grand conclusions about which economic system is best. In Cuba, they an afford a decent health system because they throw all their money at it, leaving the people with shoes made of spinach and their beautiful old Spanish-heritage houses turning to dust. On the other hand, we have America, with a completely private health system run by big business that pays off the government to keep it overpriced and inefficient.

Health should be mainly public, and should be part of a capitalist system. The problem with Pilger, like Moore, is that he sees it all in the same black and white that the moronic peasants of South America see it: America vs Cuba. Hard communism vs hard capitalism. In this way, two unpleasant camps are kept, and no progress can ever be made one way or the other.

Pilger, and a lot of the idiots commenting above, should try to see the grey areas.

Carl Jones
24 October 2007 at 10:48

Oh dear Harry, still hung over from the rugby? I suppose Brittan would qualify as a "grey area".lol Its grey for a reason and its by design. Most people know the NHS is in a mess, dirty and severely underfunded.

The issue of Cuba V USA is largely a construct of the Western elite. Although this has backfired. The so called greatest democracy (lol) on earth can`t provide basic heathcare for about 50 million Amerikans, on the other hand we have Cuba. Cuba was an abused nation before Castro. God only knows what mess Cuba would be in if Castro hadn`t saved it. Economically savaged by over 40 years of economic sanctions and yet, Cuban`s still get better healthcare than most of the capitalist free (lol) world.

You are so right Harry, lets focus on the grey mess...it sort of has that brain numbing quality about if....maybe Porton Down can devise another hospital super-bug?lol

Marshy
24 October 2007 at 10:52

John Pilger and Michael Moore are both heroes as far as I'm concerned. Championing causes for the common man against big business and corrupt government - I truly do not understand how any sensible thinking human being could find much to dislike about the politics put forward. They tell truths which people find difficult to reconcile and which they do not want to hear and this is why there is a backlash.

I hope people in general are being turned on about the state of the world and realising that bullying countries and spending your budget on wars which line the pockets of the elite leave a deficit which creates hardship. Be it lack of healthcare, education or reinforced levys.

I would like to think people are over thisvision of "Democracy" which is being forced on us by governments around the world and yet offering us no real choices. As Moore shows in this film, Hillary Clinton was once a proponent of universal healthcare but she has been bought out by big business. Our economic system is skewed to promote this kind of nepotism and until that is changed we will never really see power in the hands of the people - which is surely what Democracy is all about.

http://marshylll.blogspot.com/

Harry
24 October 2007 at 12:53

Yes, Carl Jones, lol, lol, and indeed, lol. Cmon, we re not in an under 16 chatroom. And you cant make the dominant system of government appear wrong with lazy, shorthand arguements and sarcasm like the ones you used above:

"Most people know the NHS is in a mess, dirty and severely underfunded."

"Most people" dont know anything of the sort- especially that last one. "underfunded"? Its had so much (public) money poored into it over the last decade that its becomming less efficient. Besides- its a national health service. It isnt fundamentally different from Cubas health system, except that its had the quite reasonable introduction of some (small)market forces to make it more efficient. Nothing wrong with that. Again- black and white thinking. Britain=America=bad. But the health system in England is mainly state owned. And besides, I didnt choose Britain as the ideal choice did I? You could have looked at France, which has a wonderful system, and yet still allows private business to function.

"The issue of Cuba V USA is largely a construct of the Western elite."

Oh come on, we all know it comes from many sources! Have you never heard a speech by Castro? Its also something which communist countries always use as a justification for their continued one-party rule. Both sides use it, as you surely must know.

I also love this gem:

"Economically savaged by over 40 years of economic sanctions and yet, Cuban`s still get better healthcare than most of the capitalist free (lol) world."

lol indeed. I love the way that communists always blame santions for Cuba's poverty. Isnt that great?! A communist saying a country is poor because it cant trade! Fantastic!

You know what? If the sanctions bother you-heres an idea: allow Cubans to vote. It would be a lot easier to justify lifting sanctions if the regime would allow the people to choose. Now, I wonder why they dont do that??

Pierre
24 October 2007 at 16:08

They can vote in the US and look at the issues there, A Facsist government that says "let the sick and the children die in the streets".

The present regime says "We are against abortion and stem cell research" yet they don't mind killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims.

Harry
24 October 2007 at 17:25

Yes, Pierre, but that doesnt mean that when people vote, bad things happen. Are you seriously trying to tell me that the best system of government is a dictatorship?

Again, Id like to point out the floors of this black and white way of thinking. It isnt America=capitalistdemocracy=bad. France and Germany didnt go to war with Iraq. If the British government had cared what the majority of the British people thought (in other words, if the democratic process had been stronger), they wouldnt have gone in either. So, no, I wont "look at the US" and say "yup. Democracy=bad. Castro=good". Because it doesnt work like that. Democracy is fundamental to any viable system, because, the system exists for the people, and not the other way round. If a system cant survive a vote, then the people dont want it, and therefor, its a bad system. Which should put off windbags like pilger from wanting what they have in Cuba, but, unfortunately, it doesnt.

Cybertiger
24 October 2007 at 18:13

"Again, Id like to point out the floors of this black and white way of thinking."

Harry, please don't step on the lines between the black and white squares on the floor - or the big red bear will get you.

Cybertiger
24 October 2007 at 18:14

@Pierre

"The present regime says "We are against abortion and stem cell research" yet they don't mind killing hundreds of thousands of Muslims."

And the voting American's healthy respect for the 'sanctity of human life' doesn't preclude an unhealthy - and hugely expensive - democratic predilection for the death penalty - back in the homeland.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/01/20070119.htm...

Carl Jones
25 October 2007 at 00:23

Harry...how many decades of underspend? Years ago I worked this out to be over £100 billion and that was based on the European average....I think NL has spent an additional £50 billion...taking into account 300,000 immigrants per year over the last ten years and you are looking at a best number of around £45 billion...

...thats £55 billion short based on the European average....looks a bit grey to me Harry.lol

Harry, please explain to me what you mean by "dominant system of government", please list your top three examples.

"One party rule"....here I must agree with you....I am yet to see any form of government anywhere in the world which uses a system on two/three/four party government....

....heck, I can vote, but for who? They all have the same master.lol

BTW Harry....I`m rather disappointed, "me a communist"?lol Now why would I want to be a communists? For that matter, why would I be a facist, or a socialist....WHY DO I HAVE TO BE ANYTHING?

Read well; "political creeds are the barracks of the elite...go and fight for grand illusions, I will not follow, so off you go Harry.lol

Now, let me think.........

......how many Americans do I know who buy CUBAN cigars in London and have them relabled, reboxed and sent to the US?lol Of course, Klinton always had Cuban`s on his Oval Office desk, enough said.:))

Harry
25 October 2007 at 03:25

"how many decades of underspend? Years ago I worked this out to be over £100 billion and that was based on the European average"

Well, let me quote something I said before:

"I didnt choose Britain as the ideal choice did I? You could have looked at France, which has a wonderful system, and yet still allows private business to function."

It was you who chose Britain as the ideal example-not me! Why would you choose the British NHS as the typical example, and then insult it by saying that it isnt as well funded as the other examples you could have chosen?

"please explain to me what you mean by "dominant system of government", please list your top three examples."

Alright, we ll go with... Britain, France, and Japan. Of course, these are governments, not health systems.

""One party rule"....here I must agree with you....I am yet to see any form of government anywhere in the world which uses a system on two/three/four party government...."

Take a look at countries with parliaments.

"WHY DO I HAVE TO BE ANYTHING?"

Forgive me for using political terminology. When I say "communist" I am in this case refering to people who still think that communism is a decent form of government.

Harry
25 October 2007 at 03:26

From Cybertiger: "Harry, please don't step on the lines between the black and white squares on the floor - or the big red bear will get you."

Idiot.

Harry
25 October 2007 at 03:29

I have a question for communists, or people who like the idea of that kind of thing:

As "we re all equal", how can you reward hard work, or even mediocre work, in your ideal system?

Cybertiger
25 October 2007 at 09:19

@Harry

"As "we re all equal"

I'm looking down on the black and white squares on your flaws - from the red and gray patterns on my ceiling. We're definately not equal.

Cybertiger
25 October 2007 at 09:45

Never fear, the Americanization of the NHS is proceeding apace; be afraid, be very afraid.

Harry
25 October 2007 at 09:50

Cybertiger, if you arent bright enough to debate seriously, why do you bother to post here? Anyone can see that your many posts are basically bland nonsence designed to cover up the fact that you dont really have any opinions- or at least opinions which you can articulate a defence for.

Now, to copy-paste my question again- hopefully someone a little more serious will reply to this one:

I have a question for communists, or people who like the idea of that kind of thing:

As "we re all equal", how can you reward hard work, or even mediocre work, in your ideal system?

Carl Jones
25 October 2007 at 10:20

Harry; I chose Britain because ""YOU"" wanted to talk ""GREY""!!

I can only agree with "France", but they just had a Mossad agent (being investigated by the French police) Sarkozy forced on them....of course, you`d thibk it was a frre election, but with elite bankers throwing money ""communist"" candidates in order to fracture Sarkozy`s oppositon. The same thing happened in Italy...Goldman Sachs spent a fortune on Italian communists so they could eject Burlusconi. I could give reasons why this happened, but I doubt that a "democracy junky" would believe that democratic elections can be wangled so easily with cash, but the again you might think this is fair game.

This makes your statement;: "take a look at countries with parliaments", rediculous.

In our own glorious democracy; Brown still won`t rule out military action on Iran...even Sarkozy can`t wait to sink his jaws into the kill, NWO bloodlust.lol

My dear Harry, communism is everywhere. We live in a system of mild incentivised communisum. The Soviets ran a similar system, a bigger and better home, slightly more pay, access to the better holiday resorts and so on. In the so called capitalist West you can have these things and more, but the "MAJORITY" of people who make use of these incentives will usually be burdened with staggering debts. These debts might as well be chains....oh dear, it must be NWIO claw-back time...in some parts of the US property has fallen by 50%...30% is typical and its all coming to the UK soon.lol,lol

As I`m not a communist I shouldn`t be replying to your last comment, but as I`ve just stated, we are living in a communist system, I will reposte; remember, it was you who said "we are all equal", which is a blatant untruth. "Reward hard work"....this needs to be clarified. What do you mean by "hard work"? Physical work, or a doctor/accountant/engineer? Because these are elite constructs providing jobs for life with good pay. Careworkers in old peoples home`s could do the same if they weren`t generally under educated (by design), older workers or living in areas of poor employment, where most of these homes are located. Maybe you are thinking of Essex boy in the City who plays his little part in the globalisation scam, screwing the world so he can collect his bonus?

These are just a few simplistic examples. But then you reveal you true elitest colors (delib-spel), "or even mediocre work"....there is no such thing as "mediocre work"...in fact, I suspect what you term "mediocre work", is in fact "hard work", which is usually poorly paid. Sure, all people should be rewarded for their effort, but the US/UK systems is so unbalanced that their societies are dysfunctional. If you were true to your capitalist ideals, then you would illegalise all inheritance, give all occupations the same status as professional bodies.

We would see many middle and upper class children start to fail...not quiet matching the lavel reached by one or both parents. Then we`d see a real change in the way real hard workers (the majority who are poorly paid) are treated and rewarded. Its such a shame that supposed capitalists can`t quiet finish the logical thought process so they reach a logical conclusion.

Leveller
25 October 2007 at 11:51

Question: Why is it that there are so many extreme neocon posters on this site?

Why are they here in the first place?

One wonders if these wind-up merchants (or a considerable number of them ) are in the pay of American, or pro-American "think-tanks", i.e. agitprop professionals, ... or are there really that many right wing "useful idiots" about?

Harry
25 October 2007 at 12:23

Harry; I chose Britain because ""YOU"" wanted to talk ""GREY""!!

What on earth are you talking about? I was looking for a debate which deals with the whole arguement- not just America vs Cuba. Adding one country to the list and trying to destroy my arguement by highlighting the floors of that one country (against the strengths of the other countries that you could have chosen) hardly helps your case.

"with elite bankers throwing money ""communist"" candidates in order to fracture Sarkozy`s oppositon."

Of course, you havent accompanied your completely unproven conspiracy theory with some kind of source or proof, but even if it were true, you forget three very important facts.

1. The right has the same problem- they have to deal with Le Pen.

2. The communists, even between them, did extremely badly.

3. Most importantly, France has two votes- so all those fringe parties didnt effect the final result anyway. Of course, the left (more central than the communist parties, and of course appealing to a far larger base), still lost.

Unfortunately your arguement was week and you didnt make a point at all, so let me make it for you: Capitalist democracies often have varying degrees of corruption. However, with a private press (at least you know about it) and the ability to vote, at least reform is possible, and much easier than in communist dictatorships.

"In our own glorious democracy; Brown still won`t rule out military action on Iran...even Sarkozy can`t wait to sink his jaws into the kill, NWO bloodlust.lol"

Lol indeed. And yet, at least the people had a choice. The people voted for a party that wouldnt rule out military action. Just because you disagree with it, doesnt mean the people disagree with it. Cubans never voted for Castro, nor did they vote for a government that funds wars in other countries.

"illegalise all inheritance" -finally, an opinion that makes some sense.

"give all occupations the same status as professional bodies"

What are you talking about when you say status? The same pay? Cmon, lets be a little more specific. Do you have something tangible in mind when youre talking about "status"?

"My dear Harry, communism is everywhere. We live in a system of mild incentivised communisum."

...Someone needs to look up communism in a dictionary.

"As I`m not a communist I shouldn`t be replying to your last comment, but as I`ve just stated, we are living in a communist system, I will reposte; remember, it was you who said "we are all equal", which is a blatant untruth."

I dont believe that we re all equal at all. This is a belief thats central to communism. Surely, you know that, dont you? Maybe it is time to look up communism in a dictionary? And if you arent one, why are you defending it?

""Reward hard work"....this needs to be clarified. What do you mean by "hard work"? Physical work, or a doctor/accountant/engineer? Because these are elite constructs providing jobs for life with good pay."

Alright then, allow me to clarify. If I have a job, which you would consider to be not elite (what a silly term to use anyway)- such as working on a farm- how will you, as someone who, for some reason, wants to defend communism, reward hard work? I will clarify working hard: Going fast, doing as much as possible, and putting in a lot of effort, as opposed to slacking off and taking it easy.

"there is no such thing as "mediocre work"..."

Anyone who has had enough "non elitist jobs" will know that there is such thing as mediocre work. A lot of people, when they can, will take it easy, put their feet up, and do as little as possible. Theres nothing elitist about me saying so- I would do the same if I thought Id be paid the same, as in a communist country.

So, again, how will you reward genuine hard work, as Ive defined?

Harry
25 October 2007 at 12:28

From leveller:

"Question: Why is it that there are so many extreme neocon posters on this site?"

Again, this is just what Im talking about when I say "black and white thinking". Just because Im not saying something you agree with, doesnt make me a neocon/bush supporter/republican. Once again, black and white thinking. Im not impressed. Try to defeat my arguements, rather than accuse me of being a part of the "grand right wing conspiracy"

Cybertiger
25 October 2007 at 12:34

@Harry

"Cybertiger, if you arent bright enough to debate seriously, why do you bother to post here?"

As per NS invitation, I post comments. I don't do debate - I'm a very serious commentator.

"I have a question for communists, or people who like the idea of that kind of thing: As "we re all equal", how can you reward hard work, or even mediocre work, in your ideal system?"

We're all capable of hard work, mediocre work or being bone-headed idle. As we're not all equal, the real question is how can you reward high intellect, mediocre intellect or even stupidity. The big problem for the world today is that the Americans have big rewards for dangerous idiots.

PS. I also post here because I've gotten through nine lives apiece on The Guardian (CIF) and the BBC (Today prog).

Leveller
25 October 2007 at 13:08

@ Harry

Bit of a Freudian slip there, pal.

If you're not an "extreme neocon", why should you think I was "accusing you" of such a thing?

I didn''t specifically mention you.

Still, if the shoe fits ...

It just strikes me as wierd that a publication with a reputation for being left-of-centre, should attract comments from so many correspondents of an opposite persuasion.

Cybertiger
25 October 2007 at 16:23

Harry said,

" ... trying to destroy my arguement by highlighting the floors of that one country ..."

If we could only wipe the floors of the US health system ... we could stop blood dripping from the ceilings ...

Harry
25 October 2007 at 16:40

"Bit of a Freudian slip there, pal.

If you're not an "extreme neocon", why should you think I was "accusing you" of such a thing?

I didn''t specifically mention you."

Oh yes, what a freudian slip! How stunningly intellectual. Unfortunately, its still black and white thinking, and youre still avoiding debate by labelling all other opinions as something that theyre not in order to avoid dealing with them. Maybe you and "very serious commentator who doesnt debate" Cybertiger here should go and join a Yahoo chat forum, where intellectual standards are lower.

Harry
25 October 2007 at 16:41

"If we could only wipe the floors of the US health system ... we could stop blood dripping from the ceilings ..."

Oh yes, very serious. Well done.

gnuneo
31 October 2007 at 00:37

jeez, what a load of hot air and crapola!

no, i'm NOT talking about pilger, who once again strikes lightening clear with his prose, but the comments afterwards.

cybertiger: you used to make good comments, now its semi-meaningless gibberish. Any reason for this?

carl jones: for the love of GAIA, do you HAVE to see everything as a jewish/NWO conspiracy? It gets REALLY boring, and misses the subtleties and multi-polarities of today's world.

harry: i have to say your game is very much improving over a few months ago, well done and keep it up.

now, cuba v US - WTF kind of a comparison is THAT?

cuba is run by a dictatorship, and due to this could tomorrow reverse all the priorities and turn into a warmongering hegemon. Therefore its political system does NOT reflect its health care system, so whether it is a democracy or dictatorship is irrelevant to the debate.

as harry said, a better comparison might be france, or the nederlands, but the key element is quite simple - the health system is aimed towards the betterment of the health of the people, with perhaps a possible profit added on as incentive in certain elements, compared to a system aimed at profit, with the possible betterment of the health of the people as a bonus.

funnily enough, pilger himself makes this distinction in the article!

as to communism, equality, incentives blah blah blah - what do you call a system where the employees all own the shares in the company?

communist, capitalist, socialist?

actually, its all three, depending upon which definitions you are using, which of course depends upon your own biasses and prejudices.

but what does it leave us with?

it means that those who work hard, get good renumeration, it means that it is far harder to exploit people (exploitation can come from outside the company, far harder within it as everyone has a say in its running and the profits from that), it is democratic, it is secure from stock market collapse, it is based upon private property, it is meritocratic.

it is also specific enough to avoid the kind of utterly meaningless generalisations that start to fly around when the terms such as "communist" are thrown into the pot.

it is also largely irrelevant on discussions about health care.

here is the stark simple choice that we as health consumers face: with the ever increasing expansion of 'life extending medical services' (not necessarily life *enhancing* BTW), which cost ever more and more for the benefit of a few months grasping at life, instead of a calm acceptance of death as a vital element of Life itself, a necessary passage that all living creatures have to follow at some point, our societies entire wealth could be spend offering these services to all, with very few actual benefits coming from it.

The 'socialised health care' that moore rhapsodises about, is very simply that the society pools its resources to provide medical coverage for all, giving economics of scale benefits. This can be compared to the dark days of the Victorians and before, where health care was the privilege of those who could afford it.

all well and good, and clearly in this case the attraction of universal health care is abundantly obvious - it provides good quality health care to the population, somewhat regardless of wealth.

but what happens when we then have available these incredibly expensive operations and drugs, that CAN extend life, but only at the cost that oftimes is more than the earning power of the individual over an entire lifetime?

should the system then say no, you cannot have it, or yes, you can have it, but it is available to everyone, so the society goes bankrupt providing these services?

or should it say, those with no money cannot have it, those with money can live longer? (along with better schooling, accommodation, nutrition, transport etc etc etc).

perhaps it is the 3rd option, but then when a society (such as the UK or US) has a massive wealth gap, all too often the wealthy (and thus in our plutocratic societies have more democratic 'voice) can then squeeze the services to the poor into the ground, after all they don't give a sh*t as they are paying for their private health care anyway, exactly like the state sector education has been squeezed in the UK?

dilemma one.

then, as previously mentioned, there is also the 'profit' to be made, by removing medical research from the state sector (where the emphasis would be upon general affordability, and open access), to the private sector, with the emphasis upon profit, and exclusivity.

this is actually a somewhat seperate issue to 'dilemma one', and is a far more subtle one that has been used in the UK and other western countries to quietly privatise medicine.

when both come together, as in the US where health care provision and also medical research are both used as means to profit, the provision of health care is ghastly, as i suspect MM points out in his documentary (which i haven't seen yet).

but is it also 'fair' to deny possible health provision to those who *can* pay more for it, or who indeed simply want to?

no easy answers here, is there?

well, actually yes there are.

first of all, research should definitely be in the hands of the state sector, much as the research on the human genome should have been, so that the research results become open to all to utilise, even across international boundaries, so scientific research can expand as rapidly as possible in all fields, and is not restricted by copyrighted or patented obstacles. Scientists explore knowledge for peer acknowledgement, not for profit.

this would immediately end the very clear price gouging and profiteering by private pharmaceutical companies, who are soaking up so much of the vaunted "extra investment" that govts witter on abut so much, the new-labour govt being one of the worst culprits.

this merely amounts to a wealth transfer from the population to the already uber-wealthy, as even a minutes thought should make obvious.

as to health provision, and whether it should be basic for ALL, or multi-tiered according to wealth, there are no answers within this particular contextualisation of the question.

the problem arises purely from the fact that our societies HAVE multi-tiered wealth levels. Were there to be strict inheritance cut-offs, and companies to be capitalist partnerships and not feudal hierarchies, then the wealth gap would narrow tremendously (as the Danish history proves), and the third option, that of allowing people to fund their own health services as they wish, would become far less socially traumatic, and also far less divisive.

the conclusion to this essay? The 'problem' with health care is partly because the motive is towards profit, instead of provision, and this is enormously magnified by the divisions of wealth in our societies, caused by grotesque inheritances, and its related feudal hangover of people being able to own companies they do not work in, allowing them to live off the hard work of others, economic and social vampires, gluttoning themselves of the lives of the majority.

end these, and the central problem of health provision goes away.

hockinm
01 November 2007 at 01:42

I am 7 years gone since I graduated with bsc politics and IR and 6 since my msc in economics and financial markets, and Moore is an inspiration to me. I lose interest when I view the state that debate in both parliament and the media (ie. the cornerstones of our weak effort at democracy) has come to.

Thankyou New Statesman.

Please everyone, heres to the unravelling of the status quo that is leading us directly to destruction.

Cybertiger
01 November 2007 at 11:39

@gnuneo

“cybertiger: you used to make good comments, now its semi-meaningless gibberish. Any reason for this? “

Thank you for your meaningful words as comment. It is obvious that you appreciate the utter meaninglessness of the American ways of wellness both domestic and global – and you are clearly no misunderestimator.

PS. I have to admit to not reading the whole of your commentary - yawn!?

Harry
01 November 2007 at 16:39

"PS. I have to admit to not reading the whole of your commentary - yawn!?"

Yes, isnt it boring, cybertiger? Hes expressing political opinions!

Maybe you should try FHM magazine? You can read about tits and ass. You dont have to do any thinking at all- and most importantly, you dont have to have any serious opinions. Much easier for you!

Cybertiger
01 November 2007 at 17:06

"Maybe you should try FHM magazine? You can read about tits and ass. "

More meaningful meaninglessness as political opinion - ass over tit, Harry's woken up again - yawn!

Harry
01 November 2007 at 17:18

Dear oh dear cybertiger, why do you bother posting here if you dont have any serious opinions? Ill tell you what- why dont you go up the page, and look at your posts- youve taken a long time to write them- and then post here just one of them which you think actually says something intelligent. You know, where you actually give a serious opinion, and then explain why you have that opinion? Because I cant find that post. All I can find is a load of gibberish which sounds as though its probably supposed to be funny but isnt. Go on, copy and paste the most intelligent thing you said, and post it below....

papigosh
01 December 2007 at 14:59

Has any one stopped to wonder why the western media are usually quick to show shanty towns as an illustration of backwardness of developing countries whilst doing all it can to hide their own shame in 'the hood' of the states and inner cities of London and Birmingham? Katrina put paid to that and Michael Moore's sicko reveals the true state of affairs of a country that prides itself as the 'most powerful on earth'. So powerful, she is unable to provide basic health care for her most vulnerable citizens!

Papigosh

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About the writer

John Pilger

John Pilger, renowned investigative journalist and documentary film-maker, is one of only two to have twice won British journalism's top award; his documentaries have won academy awards in both the UK and the US. In a New Statesman survey of the 50 heroes of our time, Pilger came fourth behind Aung San Suu Kyi and Nelson Mandela. "John Pilger," wrote Harold Pinter, "unearths, with steely attention facts, the filthy truth. I salute him."

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