The NS Interview: Norman Finkelstein

“I’d have to be certifiably insane to deny the Holocaust”

It's five years since the conflict in southern Lebanon. What lessons do you draw now?
It was the first war in Israel's history that ended without it achieving a clear victory. The consensus is that, on the one hand, Israel could not have stopped the Hezbollah rocket attacks without launching a ground invasion but, on the other, it could not have launched a ground invasion without incurring military casualties, which Israeli society will not accept. So far, Israel has not figured a way out of this dilemma.

As a measure of success, Israel says the border with Lebanon is now quiet. Do you agree?
The Israel-Lebanon border is now quieter than ever before. It is the result of a local version of the MAD [mutually assured destruction] doctrine: neither side wants to risk its home front coming under attack by the other side. But, for Israel, such a status quo is unacceptable. Its strategic doctrine is premised on being free to unleash its military might when and where it chooses. That Hezbollah has imposed unacceptable restraints signals that the situation is unstable and will almost certainly culminate in another war, launched - or provoked - by Israel.

Does Israel want peace with the Palestinians?
Everybody wants peace. That's a truism. There is no point in accomplishing through war what you can accomplish through peace. The question is: peace on what terms? Then you start getting to the heart of the problem. Israel and Palestine is probably the least complex problem in the world today. Everybody agrees what the final-status questions are - borders, Jerusalem, settlements and refugees.

But isn't the devil in the detail?
There's no devil whatsoever in the detail.

Hamas fires mortars on to and kills civilians. Why would Israel do business with terrorists?
I'm not even going to engage in this kind of game: are Hamas terrorists? OK, I'll just concede it; let's not waste any more time. So, then, let's compare the record. Israel launches an attack on Gaza. As the Israeli ministry of foreign affairs put it, "Hamas was careful to respect the [2008] ceasefire," and it was Israel that broke the ceasefire on 4 November 2008. If Israel were really concerned about mortars and rockets, it wouldn't have broken the ceasefire.

Do you think the unity deal recently struck between Hamas and Fatah will last?
If the Palestinian Authority decides to go the route of UN recognition, it needs the unity deal because the international community has made that a precondition. If it decides to resume the "peace process", it doesn't need Hamas, and will have to ditch it because the US and Israel will not negotiate with Hamas. In private, Israeli diplomats will tell you that they don't believe Mahmoud Abbas has the political strength to deliver peace. You don't need political strength. Because all you have to do is present the terms for a settlement and then you can have a national referendum. If he concedes everything to Israel, then he'll need political strength.

In your view, Israel has appropriated the Holocaust. Could a non-Jew have said that?
There is no way a non-Jew could say what I did in The Holocaust Industry without being labelled a Holocaust denier. I am labelled a Holocaust denier, too. Nobody disputes that my parents were in the Warsaw Ghetto from 1939 to 1943. If I were denying the Holocaust, I would have to be certifiably insane.

Your parents went to the US after the war. Did they consider going to Israel?
My mother used to joke sometimes because the Judenräte, the Jewish councils, played such a filthy role during the Nazi Holocaust that, when asked "Why didn't you go to Israel?", she said: "I'd had enough with Jewish leaders."

Is there anything you'd like to forget?
I did a lot of wrong things, morally wrong, personally wrong. I made major political errors in my life. But I don't want to forget them, because they put me on notice.

Is there a plan?
It's too late to speak of a plan - I'm 57 years old.

Do you vote?
I don't. I understand the rational argument for voting, but . . . I can't stand these people. I could never vote for Barack Obama.

Why not?
Because I think it's all hollow clichés and platitudes. I can't bear it. He's a complete fraud.

He's brought health care to millions.
I'm unemployed and one of those 40 million Americans who has no health insurance, so I know all about insurance that I can't afford.

Are we all doomed?
I don't think in such big terms.

Do you believe in God?
No. When I was a young man, my mother said to me, "You can't be a communist without being a militant atheist." So I had to be a militant atheist because I wanted to be a communist.

Defining Moments

1953 Born in New York City
1988 Receives doctorate from Princeton University's department of politics
2000 Publishes The Holocaust Industry
2003 Accuses Professor Alan Dershowitz of plagiarism in writing The Case for Israel
2007 A vote by DePaul University's faculty board denies Finkelstein tenure
2008 Is denied entry to Israel
2010 Publishes This Time We Went Too Far: Truth and Consequences of the Gaza Invasion

47 comments

mvkemtf's picture

crdsetrb

CampbellAlonso's picture

Holocaust Industry is without doubt his best book and exposes the way the Zionist movement, having shamelessly collaborated with the Nazis in Hungary and elsewhere, breaking the anti-Nazi Boycott with their trade agreement (Ha'avara) then profited from the dead by way of reparations from Germany. And having obtained billions of marks did their best to keep it from the survivors of the Holocaust, who live in poverty today whilst Zionist projects and functionaries live it up. Rabbi Israel Singer, before he was eventually sacked by the Jewish Claims Conference ran up $2m dollars 'expenses' in 3 years. http://www.furniturehq.org/

mbrecker's picture

One reason I don't watch Finkelstein's "debates" w/Dewrshowitz and various Israeli Foreign Ministry spokespeople? He's ok. But the others make you say what's the point?
Endless recycled talking points and cheap shots (you dare to disagree with me. Therefore you MUST be ani-semetic!).

If you really want more people to support Israel, try actually listening to what the other person is saying. Set aside IDF talking points and deal in actual facts. If you do this, you run the risk of the corporate MSM not giving you the time of day because, what's the point of that vs. the usual screaming matches (it's GREAT TV!). Then again, you might actually be taken seriously.

Coleridge's picture

Norman Finkelstein and Gideon Polya are deranged neo-nazi anti-Jew fucks.

grover's picture

"He's brought health care to millions."

I've honestly not even heard Obama's most strident supporters suggest anything like this. Another win for whoever does his Euro PR!

Det. Insp Gavin Richards's picture

Now now Gideon Polya hand yourself in to the nice men in white coats who will take very good care of you. You can run but you can't hide. Everyone knows you are seriously unwell we can look after you. I promise that the psychiatrists are not all hook-nosed zionists they are very nice people who have your best interests at heart.

tonyg's picture

Although I don't always agree with him, in particular about 2 States and BDS, Finkelstein is as people have said a giant. He paid the price for honesty whilst academic prostitutes and plagiarisers like Dershowitz sought to ban him from his profession in a Zionist take on McCarthyism.

Holocaust Industry is without doubt his best book and exposes the way the Zionist movement, having shamelessly collaborated with the Nazis in Hungary and elsewhere, breaking the anti-Nazi Boycott with their trade agreement (Ha'avara) then profited from the dead by way of reparations from Germany. And having obtained billions of marks did their best to keep it from the survivors of the Holocaust, who live in poverty today whilst Zionist projects and functionaries live it up. Rabbi Israel Singer, before he was eventually sacked by the Jewish Claims Conference ran up $2m dollars 'expenses' in 3 years.

It is no surprise that certifiable idiots like Parkour Pete and Frederick think Geert Wilders is a great man. The fact that his attitude to Muslims today is the same as fascists' attitude to Jews in the 1930's is of no concern. Zionism has pulled many Jews towards racism and fascism and in any case, Zionism is the flip side of the coin of anti-Semitism. Both argue that Jews don't belong in non-Jewish society.

It is therefore no surprise that PP and the other idiots don't understand what academic freedom is and wish NF to go to Iran, rather than accept you can have a diversity of opinion within academic institutions. If anyone should go to Iran then it should be Pathetic Pete and his fellow quislings.

Gideon Polya's picture

I too love Professor Finkelstein for his scholarship, courage, integrity, uncompromising anti-racism, humanity and resolution. He is an ornament to the humanitarian ethos and to the Jewish humanitarian ethos in particular that has been so horribly besmirched by the racist Zionists (RZs) and the Neocon American and Zionist Imperialists (NAZIs).

For anti-racist Jews and indeed all anti-racist humanitarians the core moral messages from the Jewish Holocaust (5-6 million dead, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) and from the more general WW2 European Holocaust (30 million Slav, Jewish and Gypsy dead) are “zero tolerance for racism”, “never again to anyone”, “bear witness” and “zero tolerance for lying”. Norman Finkelstein bears witness to those profound moral messages .

For an alphabetical compendium of the opinions of other outstanding Jewish scholars and writers opposed to the genocidal evil of racist Zionism, racist Zionist-run Apartheid Israel and the Palestinian Genocide see "Jews Against Racist Zionism": https://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/ .

For an alphabetical compendium of the views of outstanding non-Jews with the courage to oppose genocidal racist Zionism and Apartheid Israel see "Non Jews Against Racist Zionism": https://sites.google.com/site/nonjewsagainstracistzionism/ .

See the recent multi-author book on the Palestinian Genocide and entitled "The Plight of the Palestinians" edited by Professor William Cook, Palgrave Macmillan, London 2010 (see: http://mwcnews.net/focus/analysis/4047-the-plight-of-the-palestinians.html ).

LionYouth's picture

Finkelstein is a giant in a world where speaking the truth is scorned as weakness.( Note all the Zionist apologist 'might is right' creeps trying to defame him here ).

The funny thing is, Jews think he causes anti Semitism -- but it is quite the opposite -- when many Jews are increasingly swerving to the right in support of Israel,and Jewish lobby groups become more intolerant and violent, people respect Finkelstein's humanism and compassion. He is THE Jewish writer people will remember, not the zionist hacks.

Gideon Polya's picture

The pro-Zionist Murdoch media News of the World illegally hacked phones but at least one presumes faithfully if criminally reported what it discovered. Nevertheless decent people will boycott Murdoch media for its hacking and bribery crimes, warmongering, genocide-ignoring and dangerous climate change denialism.

On this thread we see an evident pro-Zionist stealing the identity of an humanitarian, Dr Finkelstein-inspired anti-Zionist scholar to post highly obnoxious, highly pejorative, criminally defamatory, ad hominem abuse with the courage of anonymity.

New Statesman has been informed and the next step will be to the British police. All that a decent person can do in addition is to quote the expert opinions of outstanding anti-racist, humanitarian, Jewish and non-Jewish scholars, writers and leaders who share the humane, anti-racist, anti-Zionist views of Dr Finkelstein (see Jews Against Racist Zionism: https://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/home and Non-Jews Against Racist Zionism: https://sites.google.com/site/nonjewsagainstracistzionism/ ).

Thus Joel Brand (1906 –1964) was a Jewish Hungarian Holocaust hero associated with the Aid and Rescue Committee involved in saving Jews in Nazi-occupied Europe by getting them to the relative safety of Hungary. Joel Brand also played a prominent role in trying to save the Hungarian Jews from deportation to the Nazi German Auschwitz death camp. The Joel Brand scheme to trade 0.7 million Hungarian Jews for 10,000 trucks, 8,000 tons of coffee, 800 tons of tea, 200 tons of cocoa, and 2 million bars of soap was opposed by the Zionists who also evidently persuaded pro-Zionist Churchill to also oppose the scheme (see Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joel_Brand ; Alex Weissberg, “Advocate for the Dead. The story of Joel Brand”, Andre Deutsch, London, 1958). Joel Brand on wartime and post-war Zionist leaders: “Rightly or wrongly, for better or for worse, I have cursed Jewry's official leaders ever since. All these things shall haunt me until my dying day. It is much more than a man can bear” (see: https://sites.google.com/site/jewsagainstracistzionism/brand-joel-exposi... ), a view consonant with that of Dr Finkelstein's Jewish Holocaust-surviving mother.

Further, Jewish American Lenni Brenner's views on on Zionist collaboration with the Nazis: “ Zionist factions competed for the honor of allying to Hitler. By 1940-41, the "Stern Gang," among them Yitzhak Shamir, later Prime Minister of Israel, presented the Nazis with the "Fundamental Features of the Proposal of the National Military Organization in Palestine (Irgun Zvai Leumi) Concerning the Solution of the Jewish Question in Europe and the Participation of the NMO in the War on the Side of Germany" (see Lenni Brenner, “51 documents: Zionist collaboration with the Nazis”, CounterPunch, 23 December 2002: http://www.counterpunch.org/brenner1223.html ).

I have a personal interest in this aspect of Dr Finkelstein's interview because only a dozen of my family survived the Zionist-complicit Nazi genocide of Jewish Hungarians in 1944-1945.

Over a century of racist Zionism and its horrendous human consequences demands that decent people boycott Murdoch media for its pro-Zionist stance. The evil crimes of the racist Zionists and Apartheid Israel demand sidelining of racist Zionists (RZs) as has already happened to like racists such as the Nazis, neo-Nazis, Apartheid and KKK.

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