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90 comments from readers

EJH
22 January 2009 at 11:04

When something like the invasion of Gaza occurs, I always look forward to Mr. Pilger's next column. I can always depend on him to put into words just what I have been feeling and thinking. Not even Bono is safe when Mr. Pilger sits down at his keyboard.

http://theunpeople.blogspot.com/

pete999
22 January 2009 at 11:44

Bono might not be safe, but neither is the truth...

What cyber army John? How is it organised? What are they supposed to say?

Or is that a slightly vague way of saying 'Jews Control the Media!!!'

ikotubo
22 January 2009 at 12:49

I don't know where you get this remarkable courage from, but I salute you, John Pilger! And long may you live, the better to continue to call the monstrous Israeli State by its name. And shame on those of us in the West, from journalists to legislators, without whose support they would not have been so succesful in their odious enterprise.

Marilyn
22 January 2009 at 15:19

John is a fine Aussie with an open mind and a heart as big as the sky. He tells the truth when others can't be bothered. That is why he is a living treasure.

davef
22 January 2009 at 15:20

I don't know about Jews controling the media, but it does seem like it when someone dares speak out against Zionist attrocities.

Carl Jones
22 January 2009 at 15:28

pete999

"Or is that a slightly vague way of saying 'Jews Control the Media!!!"

I think you should do your homework. British and Amerikan MSM is owned, or controlled by ----....sorry, but I can`t spell it out, for FEAR of censorship.

Carl Jones
22 January 2009 at 15:53

Testing

jednightingale
22 January 2009 at 16:09

A criminal's medal

John Pilger

For all the accusations that John Pilger has thorwn at Israel, the US and Britain, how come he has never call for the cessagion of rocket attacks by Hamas/Gaza onto Israeli civilian centers. If Hamas and Gaza would keep quiet and get on with the job of advancing the cause of the Palestinian people, the tragedies that we have witnessed recently could have been avoided. Let us recall that Israel has suffered rocket attacks from Gaza for more than eight years. I doubt very much that any other country would have been as tolerant. Has Mr. Pilger been as critical with Russia's and Turkey's forrays into Georgia and Iraq? I strongly believe that the time has come for the free press of Europe to bring to task the violations that Hamas/Gaza have inflicted on innocent Israeli civilians.

Jed Nightingale

New York

john problem
22 January 2009 at 17:44

'The War in Gaza' they called it. Bombers, helicopters, tanks, phosphorus, fully trained and marvellously equipped soldiers, spies defining targets, etc, etc. But ths was all on one side only. One didn't see any bombers, helicopters, tanks, phosphorus, fully trained and marvellously equipped soldiers or spies from Hamas. Only half-cock rockets most of which don't explode. Hardly a 'war'. However, it's all too much and takes up too much media time. The UN should go in and clear it up. Then we could perhaps learn something about what goes on in other countries of the world, rather than these two piddling little, bellicose, cockamany countries.

IranianRealist
22 January 2009 at 18:31

Bono might not be safe, but neither is the truth...

What cyber army John? How is it organised? What are they supposed to say?

Or is that a slightly vague way of saying 'Jews Control the Media!!!'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-f...

IranianRealist
22 January 2009 at 18:33

to pete999:

"What cyber army John? How is it organised? What are they supposed to say?

Or is that a slightly vague way of saying 'Jews Control the Media!!!'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/09/israel-f...

Gerry Myer
22 January 2009 at 18:44

Hey Marilyn

Hope you mean Pilger - for a moment I thought you intended Howard!

All you guys dumb or sumthin? These are God's Chosen People so they can do what they like with donkey dung. It's their right to choose depravity.

pete999
22 January 2009 at 18:57

Carl, would you be a love and spell it out?

Im an unimaginative kind of guy, and given what you post the answer could be anything from toast to shape shifting lizards.

phantom
22 January 2009 at 19:14

John Pilger and Robert Fisk [The Independent] are the only journalists worth reading. Thank you John!

Luke Andrew
22 January 2009 at 20:50

To jednightingale or rather jedhawk

Do you know how many Israelis have died in those “for more than eight years” of Hamas attacks before the Zionist state started its recent destruction of Gaza? Ten! And normally those attacks were the retaliatory responses to the Israeli attacks on Hamas members and their families. And now Jed, how many CHILDREN have died from the indiscriminate Israeli attacks in just last three weeks? Well above four hundred!

Do you seriously think Jed that a life of an innocent Palestinian child is worthless?

Israel is a failed state and it’s time to talk about its creation as one of the biggest political mistakes of the 20th century!

writeon
22 January 2009 at 20:59

For me, the worst thing about Pilger's article is how accurate it is and this is very sad indeed. Apart from a few details, it's all too true. We're ruled by a decadent and corrupt elite that don't give a damn about anyone than themselves and they are protected and legitimised by a journalistic sect that resembles the rold played by the Catholic Church in the Middle Ages. Modern journalism increasingly functions as a kind of Ministry of Propaganda and entertainment, confusing instead of revealing, massaging instead of probing. This 'Church' works had in hand with the political class who have evolved into charming, smiling, and very professional, liars.

Increasingly I'm coming to appreciate the perspectives of my well-healed, anarchist, forebears. Ordinary people are being screwed and duped, by the left, right and centre. Once in while, every other century, there's a chink of democratic light in the gloom, but that doesn't last long, and soon it's back to the clamp-down and elite rule and the people are screwed all over again.

OrwellianUK
22 January 2009 at 21:47

Jednightingale

As usual with apologists for Israeli ethnic cleansing/genocide policy, you have got everything upside down. The rockets

are an ill-advised response to 40 years of illegal occupation, entirely airbrushed out of history on your side of the pond.

This occupation has violated over 60 UN resolutions and innumerable Human Rights and International Laws. This

includes the daily murder, kidnap and torture of Palestinian civilians, shellings, air raids, missile strikes, an illegal

blockade that cuts off food, water, medical supplies and electricity.

How would you like to live like a Palestinian, forced into virtual concentration camps by the Israeli government, their

homes bulldozed and their children shot dead in the street, for the mere crime of throwing rocks at their besiegers?

This is a brutal and gradual genocide, which has been a clear part of Israel's policy since the beginning. Israel is raping

the people of Palestine, and yet you seem to think that we should be preventing the victim from defending itself? 90% of

the violence and 90% of the provocation is from Israel, a terrorist state whose record is twice as bad as Saddam

Husseins Iraq in terms of UN/International Law violations.

Israel is not 'tolerant', it is an apartheid state whose existence is based on a racist ideology of Arab 'inferiority'. The

Israeli's who have my respect are those few who have dared to challenge their own government on this policy and

protested in the streets or refused to take part in the slaughter.

If you want to learn something about the true history of this conflict, you should read the work of American Jewish writer

Noam Chomsky. You will learn from him the truth behind the propaganda you are regurgitating.

jednightingale
22 January 2009 at 22:00

To Luke Andrew

22 January 2009 at 20:50

"Israel is a failed state and it’s time to talk about its creation as one of the biggest political mistakes of the 20th century!"

The tragic events that have occured in Gaza in the last three weeks cannot be saddled on Israel alone. Hamas has pursued a policy of firing rockets at Israeli civilian populations for three years. In addition the previous five years also had a plethora of rocket attacks. Altogether more than 8000 rockets have been fired by Gaza onto Isreal. Although there have been hudnas and lulls in the rocket attacks, in the last six months Hamas has been arming herself with more powerful smuggled rockets that can go further and be more destructive. If Hamas and the Palestinian people chose to live by the sword (as dictated by her charter and the democratically elections that brought Hamas to power) then they have to be prepared to pay some consequences. War has never been clean and for sure Hamas used civilian populations to shield her rocket attacks.

I would like to make a suggestion to everyone that is upset by this latest tragic events. Please write, demonstate and scream at Israel and Hamas next time either one violates international norms of warfare. Also scream at both them to come and settle their differences. The Palestinian intransigence over the last sixty years has given the Palestinian very little in return. It is time to change tunes. Interestingly enough, today's NY Times editorial had a piece by Lybia's Kadafi calling for a end to this conflict. His sober remarks indicate that the Arab states in the Middle East are begining to recognize that Iran is becoming a great threat to the Sunis across the Middle East. It would be tragic if Iran were to become the dominant power in the Middle East as a result of their manipulation of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict. Time to tell Hamas to either shape up or become irrelevant while squandering their national aspirations.

Gideon Polya
22 January 2009 at 23:12

Excellent article by John Pilger.

Re John Howard, former PM of climate criminal, war criminal, racist White Australia and awarded the Medal of Freedom by the World’s #1 terrorist and #1 war criminal George W, Bush – yet in 2008 a group of Australian lawyers sent a formal complaint to the International Criminal Court (ICC) over Australia’s illegal invasion of Iraq in March 2003 (see ABC report “Howard accused of war crimes over Iraq troop deployment” : http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/06/02/2262414.htm ).

Indeed I have made a formal complaint to the ICC over Australian complicity in Genocide, specifically in Iraqi Genocide (2 million violent and non-violent post-invasion excess deaths, 6 million refugees), Afghan Genocide (post-invasion violent and non-violent excess deaths 4-6 million, 4 million refugees), Australian Aboriginal Genocide (9,000 excess deaths annually; 90,000 excess deaths under the Howard Coalition Government) and Climate Genocide (only 500 million people are expected to by Professor James Lovelock FRS to survive this century due to climate criminal polluters such as Australia) (see: http://climateemergency.blogspot.com/2008_02_01_archive.html ) .

Australia is one of the world’s leading GHG polluters and is committed to an annual 2% INCREASE in GHG pollution as compared to the 6-8% DECREASE needed to avert catastrophic climate change according to top UK climate scientists (see: http://www.countercurrents.org/polya140109.htm ) .

As for Blair and Bush, the late UK Nobel Laureate Harold Pinter recommended in his Nobel Prize Acceptance Address that both face the ICC for war crimes (see: http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/literature/laureates/2005... ) .

And as for Apartheid Israel – see this SHOCKING comparison between Nazi crimes and Israeli crimes (see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/27972/264#akocomment5833/ ). 1,300 Gazans killed in reprisals for ZERO (0) Israeli deaths from Gaza rockets in preceding year.

celestun
22 January 2009 at 23:14

"Moral insanity ... is a prerequisite"

Oh Yes!... thank you for this wonderful article John!

Such refreshing words once again from John Pilger and I agree with 'Phantom' that together with Robert Fisk these men are such an important source of truth in a time of disturbing media myopia...

... The extraordinary degree of blind faith in the Israeli lobby is more terrifying than any other extreme religious group on Earth and the defilement of UN resolutions and Geneva conventions is tantamount to the silent crime of ignoring the dazzling 100:1 casualty rate in the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.

Israelis believe they have a divine right to avenge the holocaust, as descendants of the severely abused, they have chosen the Middle East, starting in Gaza, as their killing fields.

Watching the initiation ceremony of Obama, was such an anti-climax, we all want so desperately, as members of humanity, to believe that miracles can come from this new President with so much power, but when you see the pretentious pomp of a US style inauguration, you realise they may have come a long way on the rear end of 8 years of G.W. Bush, but what a long way they have to go before they understand the damage they are doing and have done to the rest of the world.

As John Pilger points out the appointments alone of the Obama administration are already a clear sign that business as usual is the way of the West and no amount of liberal dreaming is going to change American policy in the Middle East.

I will keep on hoping, inspired no less by the uplifting truth being reported by such inspirational reporters as John Pilger and indeed Robert Fisk.

Observer
22 January 2009 at 23:23

I thank the writter for his rare courage. The EXTERMINATION in GAZA tells another sad drama. Israelis, once victims of Hitler, have now come around and whole heartedly adopted the Mein Kampf philosopy: Racial Supremacy, the ends justify the means, ethnic cleansing to create living space for the CHOSEN PEOPLE (read SUPER RACE), mind bogling barabrity against helpless civilians (mostly women and children), an army with no miltary honor (the new SA-Swastica Army), mind control through control of the media to cover up atrocities including use of chemical weapons (Phosphorus bombs against civillians), repugnant crimes against humanity, pleasure killings by the brave Israeli soldiers- murdering parents before the very eyes of their children, blocking ambulances from saving bleeding civillians, the litany of crime goes on. The Israelis have out done their source of inspiration. Indeed, Adolf Hitler must be smiling in his grave: his teachings live on in the minds and souls of a new master race: Israeli NAZIS.

Observer

writeon
22 January 2009 at 23:35

Luke,

The terrible, ghastly, mostly never spoken, truth; is that one Western life is worth more than a hundred, innocent, Palestinian children, or a hundred thousand Iraqi children, or a million African children. These deaths are seen to be a 'price worth paying' for our freedom and security, for our non-negotiable way of life.

What this appalling discrepancy in how we value lives says about our real values, motives and attitudes; what it says about our souls and characters, is probably too unpleasant to contemplate for us, so we choose to ignore what we do, deny responsibility, hold no one accountable and instead move on to our next helpless victims.

Simon Wood
22 January 2009 at 23:55

Pilger tells it like it is in the last Western colonial outpost still clinging on in the Middle East.

There are good & bad people on both sides of the Gaza fence, however it would seem that the political ideal of Zionism has most definately "succumbed to the Dark Side, Luke" in the immortal words of Darth Vadar.

The Jewish people didn't own this land from c. 135 AD after the 2nd Jewish revolt against the Romans, until they declared unilateral independence in 1948...almost 2,000 years.

Imagine if the Italian's declared that they still owned all of Europe, North Africa & 1/2 the Middle East because the Roman's owned it c.1,500 years ago.

They would be laughed @, notwithstanding that ethnically the Italians & the Romans are not the same people's anymore, just like the Jewish people...

Both sides must forgive, but not forget - this is the only solution.

To put a postive twist on a macabre phrase, forgiveness is the TRUE 'Final Solution'.

Without forgiveness the area is in growing danger of heading for a nuclear confrontation.

Peace !

pSi :-)

Gideon Polya
23 January 2009 at 00:17

Excellent article by John Pilger.

He is deadly accurate in his summation of the passive Culture of Ignoring in the Western Murdochracies that is driven in part by a remorseless Culture of LYING by the the Bush-ites and racist Zionists (RZ) backing Apartheid Israel.

Anti-Semitism comes in 2 equally repugnant and evil forms, anti-Jewish anti-Semitism (the Jews, especially Ashkenazim, being diminishingly ethnically Semitic while being significantly culturally Semitic; read Arthur Koestler's "The Thirteenth Tribe") and anti-Arab anti-Semitism (the 300 million Arabs being ethnically Semitic and the 1.5 billion Muslims being culturally Semitic).

Perhaps the world's best known Jewish scholar, US Professor Jared Diamond, in his must-read book "Collapse" (Prologue, p10) enunciates the “moral principle, namely that it is morally wrong for one people to dispossess, subjugate, or exterminate another people.”

Yet this fundamental injunction is grossly violated by the racist Zionists in their invasion, occupation, disempowerment, dispossession and ethnic cleansing of the Indigenous Arab Palestinian people - surely egregious anti-Arab anti-Semitism.

Further, "zero tolerance for racism", "never again to anyone" and "bear witness" are the key moral messages from the Jewish Holocaust (5-6 million dead, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) and from the WW2 Holocaust in general (30 million Slav, Jewish and Roma dead) - yet these core injunctions are grossly violated by the racist Zionists, Bush-ites and neo-Bush-ites in their various prosecution of the ongoing Palestinian Genocide, Iraqi Genocide and Afghan Genocide (post-invasion excess deaths 0.3 million, 2 million and 4-6 million, respectively; post-invasion under-5 infant deaths 0.2 million, 0.6 million and 2.1 million, respectively; and refugees totalling 7 million, 6 million and 4 million, respectively).

The racist Zionists are also egregiously anti-Jewish anti-Semitic by identifying ALL Jews with their genocidal crimes.

DC Alec
23 January 2009 at 05:38

"This is not to say that presidents and members of Congress fail to recognise the Israel "lobbyists" in their midst as thugs and political blackmailers..." Pilger vastly overstates the power and venality of the pro-Israel operatives. The United States never sides with a true popular uprising and needs little urging to support the oppressors. The U.S. blithely supported fascist genocide in Central America that killed far more people than the Israelis have in Palestine. There is nothing unusual about Israel except that for religious reasons it's always in the news. And Israel backers are no different from any other right-wing pressure groups in this country. Why not just consider the Israelis as the right-wing Christians, whose support they've so assiduously courted?

There has been widespread repulsion in America to the Gaza invasion. The dominant visual images in the mainstream media have been of Gazan casualties, not Israel triumphant. Eventually, Israel will begin to lose its U.S. support -- Jewish and non-Jewish. May it be sooner.

nawawimohamad
23 January 2009 at 08:46

John Pilger is one of the few journalists that can write credible articles. He is just stating the facts.

nawawimohamad
23 January 2009 at 09:01

jednightingale, I think you are not being realistic or maybe you are from another planet for not being able to comprehend the sufferings of the Palestinians at the hands of the trigger happy but coward IDF. It is a Jewish kind of thing to twist facts. Many women, children and innocent civilians were murdered by the IDF because the IDF consists of cowards because they were afraid to face Hamas, but the Israel autrhorities mentioned that Hamas were using them as shields! This kind of statement is preposterous. How can such a well trained and well equiped IDF be so blind to the terrain? Israel even showed on the television how accurate the bombings were and yet they still hit the wrong target? This can only be intentional.

William
23 January 2009 at 10:56

Excellent article.

Why are there not more journalists like John Pilger?

Such an excellent and succinct analysis.

I wish more journalists who write in news publications would use facts like John and give voice to the voiceless.

Suberb piece - keep it up John as you are a credit to humanity and to your profession.

William
23 January 2009 at 11:01

Excellent article.

Why are there not more journalists like John Pilger?

Such an excellent and succinct analysis.

I wish more journalists who write in news publications would use facts like John and give voice to the voiceless.

John is correct to mention the power, reach and bullying nature of The Israeli Lobby on Congress.

For anyone who doubts this, please read The Israeli Lobby and US Foreign Policy by Mearsheimer and Walt. The book clearly illuminates the undemocratic power that this group commands and supports their assertions with 100 pages of footnotes citing incontrovertible evidence.

Superb piece - keep it up John as you are a credit to humanity and to your profession.

writeon
23 January 2009 at 11:29

I'll tell it like it is. I believe our glorious, democratic, Western, leaders have, in reality, something close to contempt for human life, especially in relation to the non-Westeners. The lastest mass slaughter in Gaza could occur virtually without a word of protest, let alone action to prevent it. Some children, some women, some civilians, are simply not worth very much. We not only finance, supply weapons, but we support and protect the perpetrators of these massive crimes against humanity. Then our leaders have the gall to talk about our shared values and how we respect human rights and individual liberty, ha, ha, ha!

What are our 'shared values'? Isn't it grotesque, though not surprising, that we can find hundreds of billions, conjure resources out of thin air, there is no limit to our largesse. Yet when it comes to helping hundreds of millions of people out of poverty, hunger and desease in the third world, suddenly the money cannot be found, suddenly we have to be 'realistic' and prudent with our limited resources! We're comfortable seeing children die and suffer decade after decade, but dead banks galvanise us into action and limitless help. Suddenly our generosity knows no bounds.

What are the real, concrete, shared values of the main Western powers and their leaders? Boundless hypocracy and virtually limitless violence in pursuit of our 'interests' and a callous disregard for the lives of the 'unworthy' and expendible.

ikotubo
23 January 2009 at 11:36

OrwellianUK: Brilliant post, though I'm not quite sure why we bother to engage with these crypto-facists. They have no interest whatsoever in the facts (understandably so, because the facts are indeed their policy). On the contrary, their sole purpose in "contributing" to this column is to bully us (with their well-worn "anti-semitism" slur) as any self-respecting facist would do, and to distort and misrepresent those basic facts. Phosphorous bombs, after all, were used by Hamas, not by Israeli forces, on babies and children.

My only concern is that as the great John Pilger has so eloquently pointed out, "mainstream" Western media organizations have all embraced their grotesque inversions of basic truth. Hence, for example, every ghastly one-sided massacre by the Israelis is described in terms of a "conflict" between them and the Palestinians - because the Palestinians are a well-armed, well-trained military force supported by over 200 nuclear warheads, occupying a helpless and unarmed Israel in a manner that every self-respecting Nazi would have been proud of!

Moreover, they've managed to silence and/or villify every legislator, every academic, and, yes, even every decent Jew who dares to raise the mildest questions about their odious policies.

And you seriously believe such people are remotely interested in a civilized debate based on facts?

Amihai
23 January 2009 at 14:25

"Hamas is a bully aided by a bigger bully, Iran. And, just as strident and threatening human bullies get away with their aggression so long as no one calls their bluff, so Hamas has been getting away with murder and torture because the UN and many states won't call its two-faced self-portrayal as the victim in the piece. In the struggle to take over Gaza from Fatah, it went on a rampage that killed hundreds of Palestinians. Even during this most recent assault, in early January, it executed Fatah members for violating their house arrest. A few weeks ago, Hamas determined to hurt yet more of its compatriots by introducing Islamic hudud punishments to the Strip, from amputations and stonings, to crucifixions and hangings".

This is how Denis MaCeoin of Ireland begins to describe Hamas and the way the rest of the world relates to it, the author of this article, sadly, included. You may read the full text at the following site:

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1232292940460&pag...

mitchy
23 January 2009 at 16:11

Ah hah! My first experience of being censored!

So, suggesting that these medals would look more appropriate on a short piece of rope rather than a ribbon - the better to hang their recipients by - is a step too far?

Oh please, thats pretty mild compared to some of the disgusting comments I've seen on this website in the past.

So what should I expect now? Have the thought police been round to visit you Writeon? I believe you've been gagged a number of times (by your own admission) on this site.

I'm not sure whether to be pleased or annoyed.

writeon
23 January 2009 at 19:19

amihai,

This article is extremely partisan, uses very violent language and names virtually no sources for its allegations about Hamas atrocities. Israel is attempting to demonise Hamas, which is understandable as wartime propaganda, that's what states do, but surely you can't expect everyone else to swallow this garbage raw?

Why can't Israel simply announce that they have no designs on any Arab land outside the 1967 borders and begin to withdraw, or begin to withdraw in stages. Why occupy Arab land illegally decade after decade after decade? Is it because, in reality Israel's religious/nationalist leaders have absolutely no intention of ever leaving the land they conquered in 1967, thereby wiping a viable Palestinian state off the map for ever?

It's a simply enough question isn't it? Withdraw and there will be peace, continue the occupation and they'll be more war for as far as the eye can see. The Palestinians will never give up their legitimate struggle for justice and a viable homeland. The sooner Israel accepts the right of Palestine to exist, the sooner this dreadful conflict will end.

writeon
23 January 2009 at 19:26

Previously one could write something and it would appear automatically without 'moderation' or censorship of any kind. Something would be removed after it had appeared, if it was deemed beyond the pale.

Now it appears that a new moderation regime has appeared, but the criteria are 'secret.' I can't figure it out. Short comments are apparently allowed, but not always. Longer comments supported by arguments and examples - simply vanish and this is usually in relation to something one's written about the dire situation in the Middle East.

I thought with the election of Obama we were heading for a new era of universal freedom, love and respect, with freedom of speech for all, within the law, but I guess I was mistaken.

Pencils
23 January 2009 at 19:43

" ...This is how Denis MaCeoin of Ireland begins to describe Hamas..." - Amihai.

Sounds and reads suspiciously much like Dennis McShane of Poland.

bodek_tzitziyot
24 January 2009 at 01:50

"...some 24 Israelis killed by rockets..."

By rockets "only" 24, but many hundreds of Israelis have also been killed by Palestinian bombs and bullets since 2000. And most of them were civilians. And all of these Israeli civilian dead were deliberately targeted.

After Israel set up the security fence and the road blocks, more than 100 attempted bombings were uncovered and thwarted by the security forces, saving hundreds of Jewish lives.

Pilger's complaint that not enough Jews are being killed is misplaced, and in bad taste. Israel has always sought peaceful coexistence with its neighbours, while the Arabs have sought to destroy Israel and kill its inhabitants.

When Einstein and Arendt called Begin a fascist, they were libelling a man who was a committed democrat. Pilger's repetition of the accusation, in this and previous articles, does not make it true, any more than his other calumnies and misrepresentations of Israeli character and policy.

antileft
24 January 2009 at 05:19

"and Alvaro Uribe, the president of Colombia, whose government, according to the latest study of that murderous state, is “responsible for more than 90 per cent of all cases of torture”.

Oh Pilger! You always do this- give a statistic without any background information or explanation (or, indeed, source- "the latest study"?! What is that?! It must be a pretty embarrassing source for you to omit it!), simply to reach a conclusion that you aleady wrote! It really is very bad journalism indeed! In fact, technically it's not really journalism at all- its propaganda. Youre not spreading knowledge- youre spreading an opinion (and an opinion based on incomplete information aswell). That's called propaganda.

You dont mention how high the percentage was before uribe, how much harder it was to collect statistics before uribe (because the country was far more dangerous), and most importantly of all, you fail to mention that the other torturers in the country- farc and eln (who you sympathise with), and auc- are all so much smaller and weaker now that their torturing days appear to finally be coming to an end, almost entirely as a result of uribe's policies. Very, very misleading.

You ALWAYS do this!!! Chuck in one random statistic without any background information at all to confirm a conclusion you already reached! It's propaganda, Pilger! Not journalism!

Amihai
24 January 2009 at 07:04

Once again, as in other threads here, instead of dealing with Denis Maceoin's accusations of members of "progressive" circles in Britain towards Israel and the elevation of Islamism and whatever ideas it promotes, and all for the sake of spewing venom at Israel and Zionism as substitutes for Jews and Judaism (see my previous post), his critics sling dirt but not facts,

Isn't it time that those wishing to be critical of Israel stay with the facts, even when reality contradicts their wishful view of the world, or simply shut up?

Claddach
24 January 2009 at 11:40

I’m with Gideon Polya (and John Pilger). The only way people are going to take notice of Israeli crimes is a boycott of Jewish goods and services. As Gideon says, marking them with the Star of David to facilitate the boycott, just isn’t possible. However, Jewish businesses are being tracked on the Internet today with the specific intent of facilitating the Arab boycott of Israel. The only difference between the boycotts of the two eras is that today Jewish businesses are being identified and targeted for boycotts globally, using the Internet as opposed to spray paint. And, quite rightly, instead of public book burnings, we see global academic boycotts to silence Zionism.

There needs to be a concerted effort by the moral peoples of the world to expose and stop the modern Zionist economic attacks on Muslims worldwide. The words "Never Again" need to be said proudly, firmly, often and, most importantly, with strong conviction.

antileft
24 January 2009 at 14:16

"When something like the invasion of Gaza occurs, I always look forward to Mr. Pilger's next column. I can always depend on him to put into words just what I have been feeling and thinking."

This is exactly what I mean! Journalism is supposed to give you information- not simply confirm your prejudice. The purpose of Pilger's articles is not to spread information- but to spread the opinion that he happens to have. This is propaganda- not journalism.

taghioff.info
24 January 2009 at 17:17

@antileft

Come on anti-left, even you must have a tiny bit of a problem with what Israel is doing now?

Actually, I don't really understand the statistic either though, can anyone give a context or a source?

writeon
24 January 2009 at 17:31

John Pilger has and ability to articulate in words what a lot of people are feeling and thinking in relation to the 'Rape of Gaza.' This talent isn't necessarily an expression of his ability as a 'propagandist.'

What is propaganda? Propaganda is generally thought to be the same as lies, distortions, manipulatons and untruths.

Pilger is an alternative voice, as is Robert Fisk in the Independent. I have difficulty understanding, why, in a democracy, one is so opposed to dissedent voices questioning the 'official' or establishment view of the world. Surely, in a healthy democracy, with freedom of speech and freedom of expressioon, we should welcome alternative perspectives, not shout them down?

It's not as if Pilger has a lot of space in the media landscape is it? He's almost a lone voice, shouting in a marginalised wilderness. It's almost as if he's real role is that of a 'caged' dissident, who proves that we don't live in totalitarian, one-party, state. He is tolerated, and nothing more. How many people even know what he thinks? 2%, 5%?

Journalism, for the most part, is propaganda.

antileft
25 January 2009 at 04:25

"What is propaganda? Propaganda is generally thought to be the same as lies, distortions, manipulatons and untruths."

Exactly. Propaganda is when you report not to give the facts- but to spread an opinion, regardless of the facts. This is what Pilger does. In every one of his articles, he throws in statistics which are deliberately there not to give the truth so that you can form the correct opinion- but to give an opinion regardless of the truth. What he just said about uribe is a case in point. All hes saying is "I dont like Uribe" and dressing up as a fact. The statistic he gave means ABSOLUTELY NOTHING without the background information that should go with it. The only reason he gives it is to mislead you into believing what he wants you to believe.

"Journalism, for the most part, is propaganda."

I dont know if that's true or not- but I think that most people would agree that the further an article goes from "propaganda", the more useful it is, and the better quality it is as journalism. This is why I dislike pilger so much- it is very bad journalism indeed because he doesnt only give his opinion- he tries to give everyone else the same opinion by giving misleading information. This is propaganda pure and simple.

"Surely, in a healthy democracy, with freedom of speech and freedom of expressioon, we should welcome alternative perspectives, not shout them down?"

Sure. But this isnt just an alternative perspective is it? This is also misleading information designed to convince us of something that the writer believes. This is bad for freedom of speech and for democracy. Freedom of speech- including different opinions- is all well and good, but a lie is a lie is a lie and we should say when it is a lie, and not simply ignore it. And a statistic like that is no better than a lie, for the reasons Ive already given.

JC3
25 January 2009 at 06:30

Definitions time folks. [Basic].

Expert: ‘Ex’ means in the past. s’pert’ is what comes

from a tap. So there.

Sem·ite (smt)

n.

1. A member of a group of Semitic-speaking peoples

of the Near East and northern Africa, including the

Arabs [hang on, that's not right!], Arameans [huh?],

Babylonians [Hmm], Carthaginians [Hmm hmm],

Ethiopians [oh this is bullshit], Hebrews [oh, there

you are. I was wondering when you lot would make

an appearance in this definition], and Phoenicians

[who the f**k are they?]

Anti-Semite:

Definition: MEANINGLESS.

Navy

Army

Air

Force

Insitute

True meaning:

Naf

Ambition

And

Fookall

Interest.

Fabrizio
25 January 2009 at 10:14

1937: Guernica, Spain; and 1939 WWII.

2008/09: Gaza, Palestine; and ???? WWIII?

writeon
25 January 2009 at 11:55

Pilger isn't guilty of writing more propaganda than the small army of journalists employed to write propaganda in the establishment or mainstream media. In fact, for the most part, his writing, is less guilty of being propaganda and it closer to accurately describing the world as it is, than what passes for normal, objective, journalism.

writeon
25 January 2009 at 13:50

Let's look at tiny example of mainstream propagada. Not based on opinion, but on numbers on a page in black and white. One can examine and think over these numbers for oneself, emperically. What does it prove? That's up to you to decide!

In the Sunday Times there's an article about US plans to intercept Iranian ships smuggling arms to the Hamas resistance movement in Gaza, and to thwart their attempts to finance the re-building programme.

The article states that a recent Israeli opinon polls showed 91% support for the attack on Gaza, I've previously seen a figure of 89% nameed. It went on to state that now only 50% believe that the 'incursion' had proved successful, I suppose that means destroying Hamas' will and ability to resist.

Anyway, the point it, how is a figure of 91% support for the Israeli government possible when around 20% of Israel's population are Palestinians? Are we really supposed to believe that Palestinians living in Israel support the mass slaughter of their own people in Gaza by the Israeli army? So the statistic of 91% support, is, I would argue, impossible. Or are we to assume that the Palestinians in Israel simply weren't asked for their opinion?

Subtract the 20% of the Palestinians and one's left with 80% of the population, if we accept that 91% of them really support their government's attack on Gaza, one arrives at a figure of 72% support, not 91%! That's a big difference, though still substantial support, if it's true.

However, shouldn't one be just as sceptical of this last figure as the first one? And this is in the Sunday Times, propaganda one can believe in!

writeon
25 January 2009 at 13:53

I've just written something about propaganda in the media in relation to Israel. Something simple and concrete. Something you can all examine for yourselves and come to your own conclusions. You don't have to take my word for it, only think. I hope it's allowed through the censor's filter. Long live freedom of speech and democracy!

writeon
25 January 2009 at 13:59

Testing. Testing. We are moving out of the era of classic, bourgeois democracy towards the new, authoritarian capitalism, as the State merges with the Free Market to totally dominate our lives.

antileft
25 January 2009 at 16:07

"Pilger isn't guilty of writing more propaganda than the small army of journalists employed to write propaganda in the establishment or mainstream media."

What kind of a defence is that?! Yes, writeon, he's certainly no worse than fox news. But that doesnt make him a decent journalist, does it? Honestly, its like saying "Stalin was never as bad as Hitler" Yeah great- a real recommendation. Well done Pilger! One of your supporters says youre no worse than the crappy propagandists of mainstream media!

And do stop the poetry- this is hardly the place for it.

writeon
25 January 2009 at 17:41

Compared to the massive propaganda barrage that constitutes most of what we read and sea in the Western media, especially in relation to our increasignly bloody and violent foreign policy, also known as the New Imperialism; Pilger's articles are sublime, brave, pargons of rectitude, beacons of truth, everything real journalism should be, in a profession characterised by grovelling subservience to the worldview, attitudes and prejudieces of the men of wealth and power that rule over us.

writeon
25 January 2009 at 17:48

I'll try again. The Sunday Times wrote that 91% of Israelis supported their govenment over Gaza. How is this possible when 20% of the population are Palestinians? Are we supposed to believe that they too support the rape of Gaza? Unlikely. Absurd. Biased. Propaganda. Lies.

writeon
25 January 2009 at 18:06

During the last year alone the Americans have killed over 1100 civilians in Afghanistan, increasingly, on both sides of the border. A couple of days ago they rocketed and killed at least 16 civilians, mostly women and children. But Afghanistan isn't a dumb war, it's a good, a just war, or so we're told. But I guarantee we'll never hear a word, not a word, about the names of these latest victims, their dreams, or what their families think about their loss. Numbers, not humans.

writeon
25 January 2009 at 18:10

I should of course have made it crystal clear that these innocent civilians, living under the shadow of these American terrorist attacks, were slaughtered not in Afghanistan, but over the border in Pakistan. Arguably this is yet another blantant and illegal Western warcrime. Oh, but I forgot, democracies don't do warcrimes!

Luke Andrew
25 January 2009 at 19:42

Please do not try to distort the truth by trying to portray Iran as a biggest enemy of the Sunnis. It’s pathetic to say that “Iran is becoming a great threat to the Sunis across the Middle East. It would be tragic if Iran were to become the dominant power… as a result of their manipulation of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict”.

It is Israel that has been manipulating the divisions in the Middle East and Arab world. The golden formula “Divide and Rule” has been helping it far too long!

Just as you quote “The New York Times”, let me bring to your attention a quote from the Financial Times (22nd January 2009) : “Last week, President Mahmoud Ahmadi-Nejad of Iran wrote a letter to King Abdullah, explicitly recognising Saudi Arabia as the leader of the Arab and Muslim worlds and calling on him to take a more confrontational role over “this obvious atrocity and killing of your own children” in Gaza. The communiqué is significant because the de facto recognition of the kingdom’s primacy from one of its most ardent foes reveals the extent that the war has united an entire region, both Shia and Sunni… When Israel deliberately kills Palestinians, appropriates their lands, destroys their homes, uproots their farms and imposes an inhuman blockade on them; and as the world laments once again the suffering of the Palestinians, people of conscience from every corner of the world are clamouring for action. Eventually, the kingdom will not be able to prevent its citizens from joining the worldwide revolt against Israel”.

Israel in its present form and shape is condemned. You can live by sword. But not for long…

Luke Andrew
25 January 2009 at 19:59

To jednightingale

Israel is a failed state for many reasons. And not only because it has been created under the false pretences at the expense of expulsion, physical extermination and misery of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians.

Israel has failed spectacularly all those who first were very enthusiastic about its appearance by being the most war-mongering nation in the world, by creating an effectively apartheid system where more than 1 mil of its Arab citizens are not politically represented because of the ban on Arab political parties’ participation in the electoral process, by creation of a society based upon racist Zionist ideology, religious obscurantism and wide-spread corruption, by violating the international rule of law by ignoring any singular UN resolution that concerns it.

That’s why the creation of Israel was one of the biggest geopolitical mistakes of the 20th century indeed.

That’s why it does not come as a surprise that three years ago that very country was voted in Europe as a biggest threat to the world peace.

antileft
26 January 2009 at 09:00

"The Sunday Times wrote that 91% of Israelis supported their govenment over Gaza. How is this possible when 20% of the population are Palestinians?"

Well, let me take a guess. They bended the statistics; They didnt give the background information, they didnt show the proper question, they didnt show how/when the piece was conducted. This is PROPAGANDA. Pure and simple. And they use the same tricks that pilger here uses, as I detailed above. So, why are you supporting this propaganda when it's on your own side, but shouting "propaganda" when it's on the other? Cant you see that theyre the same crap??

amanfromMars
26 January 2009 at 09:51

http://news.independentminds.livejournal.com/647817.html?thr...

And sadly we have the same pathetic mindset and empty hollow rhetoric nobbling the Home Office [Jack the Strawman] and the Foreign and Commonwealth Office [David the Novice Miliband].Although it must be said that they fit in perfectly well with their Cabinet colleagues, who are equally as bright as their candles are in a World of Blazing Sunshine.

stevem
26 January 2009 at 13:08

Wonderful.John. Has there ever been a finer journalist?

stevem
26 January 2009 at 13:11

Wonderful,John

DCarins
26 January 2009 at 14:47

Go and read "What's Left" by Nick Cohen. John Pilger is a silly little child - grow up John - you're doing the left a major, major disservice.

Hercules
26 January 2009 at 19:49

John you are a dinkum journalist and a dinkum Aussie. You have, once more, hit the nail on the head by writing this wonderful article. Thank you so much and keep well!

Morgan097
27 January 2009 at 01:03

antileft, old boy,

Why do you waste your valuable energy on this woeful pack of knuckle-dragging anti-Semites?

You know full well that come the next Islamist atrocity committed on British soil, these their worshipful servants will all be scurrying for the tall grass.

And MI6 will then no doubt go about the pleasurable task of patiently collecting their real names, so conveniently located in this one place.

writeon
27 January 2009 at 08:25

Morgan097,

What exactly is an 'Islamist atrocity' committed on British soil, or anywhere else? If we are defining these as attacks on civilian targets which cause large loss of life, what about the over 1100 civlians killed by Nato 'atrocities' in Afghanistan during the past year alone? Last week alone over 40 were killed, mostly women and children in the border area of Afghanistan/Pakistan, don't these people count at all?

Or are they merely numbers, without names, unworthy of consideration?

Do we really imagine that 'atrocities' on this scale in a country like Afghanistan is making the West more popular or more hated?

Objectively, look outside your window, we in the West are not under daily attack from 'Islamists.' There is no Islamist Blitz on London, Paris, Frankfurt or Los Angeles. Apart from the 9/11 attacks, which we unique, nobody could have known the buildings would collapse with such an appalling level of casualities, we is the West haven't really been attacked at all, our losses are in the low hundreds; yet in response we've sent armies across the world and have literally killed hundreds of thousands in Irag and Aghanistan. Surely that's enough 'revenge' for anyone?

writeon
27 January 2009 at 08:41

Isn't Obama, arguably, guilty of allowing the US Airforce to blatantly break international law by the latest rocket attack inside Pakistan, where 20 civilians were killed. This was an unlawful attack on a sovereign nation. If one remembers, Hamas' rocket attacks on Israeli civilian areas were defined as terrorism and warcrimes. So following this line of argument, doesn't this latest American attack on Pakistan also qualify as a terrorist atrocity and a warcrime?

Kurus
27 January 2009 at 09:00

pete999

22 January 2009 at 11:44

"Bono might not be safe, but neither is the truth...

What cyber army John? How is it organised? What are they supposed to say?

Or is that a slightly vague way of saying 'Jews Control the Media!!!' "

When the Israeli attack on Lebanon was in full swing, Mossad recruited 50,000 Jewish students around the world, they were provided with software, which once downloaded would detect any internet site which carried key words, i.e. those relating to the conflict. Each Mossad clone was asked to compile a list of emails of fellow clones.

Details of any site critical of Israel were emailed to other clones, who then emailed further clones, Mossad also provided precise details of how to obfuscate the issues and to try and show the host country as being supportive of Israel by taking the host’s country’s flag and waiving it along the Jewish flag at any demonstrations. Mussed clones did their best to try and influence polls on the inetenet as well as trying to bring down websites.

The same has been done again, also the demonstration against Hamas by Zionists in Britain, look at the photographs and you will find numerous Welsh flags.

Cries of Anti-Semitism simply do not wash and will not stop the criticism.

Morgan097
27 January 2009 at 11:26

writeon:

w: What exactly is an 'Islamist atrocity' committed on British soil, or anywhere else...

Objectively, look outside your window, we in the West are not under daily attack from 'Islamists.' There is no Islamist Blitz on London, Paris, Frankfurt or Los Angeles.

M: New York Times August 10, 2006

British Authorities Say Plot to Blow Up Airliners Was Foiled

By ALAN COWELL and DEXTER FILKINS

LONDON, Aug. 10 — British authorities said today that they had thwarted a terrorist plot to launch a wave of attacks on airplanes between Britain and the United States that would have caused what one senior police officer called “mass murder on an unimaginable scale.”

The plotters had planned to use liquids in drink bottles, smuggled in hand baggage, to combine into explosive cocktails aboard flights high over the Atlantic, British and American officials said. British authorities raised its terror threat assessment by one notch to its highest level — “critical” — meaning that an attack was imminent.

The British announcement, reinforced by warnings in the United States, set off a huge alert security alert that grounded hundreds of flights and turned Heathrow airport outside London into a maelstrom of stranded, complaining but often resigned passengers. Flight schedules were left in turmoil.

At least 24 people, said to be mainly British-born Muslims some of Pakistani descent, were arrested....

w: Apart from the 9/11 attacks, which we [sic] unique, nobody could have known the buildings would collapse with such an appalling level of casualities,

M: Actually, Bin Laden did not know that the WTC Towers would collapse upon themselves; his objective was to have the Towers fall sideways, causing exponentially greater loss of life.

w: we is [sic] the West haven't really been attacked at all, our losses are in the low hundreds...

M: 2752 (9/11) + 72 (7/7) = 2824

And US targetting of Afghan and Pakistani militants is both careful and precise.

JC3
27 January 2009 at 11:56

To Morgan097

How the F could you possibly know that Bin Laden's

'objective was to have the Towers fall sideways'???

Are you Bin Laden?

And this:

"And US targetting of Afghan and Pakistani militants

is both careful and precise."

is absolute rubbish and you know it.

And, finally, '2824' [plus those that could have

potentially died in that thwarted plot you mentioned]

is, I'm pwetty pwetty sure, just an incy wincy bit less

than those that have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and

Gaza since this so called 'War on Terror' began.

Do you believe in Karma Morgan097?

Kurus
27 January 2009 at 12:45

Morgan097

"And US targetting of Afghan and Pakistani militants is both careful and precise."

So Morgan097 are you saying that the US deliberately kills women and children?

writeon
27 January 2009 at 14:32

It seems tiresome to have to state the obvious. But 9/11 was unique. No towers have ever collapsed like this, anywhere. Such a collapse, straight down, resembling a controlled demolition, were thought to be impossible. The towers were built, being so close to an lot of air-traffic, to withstand prescisely this type of 'accident.' What happened was a shock to everyone. If the architecs that built the towers where dumfounded at the result, how on earth could Bin Laden have 'planned' to bring them down? And this wild idea that he planned to bring them down sideways is a bizarre fantasy.

Therefore, the ragtag group of hi-jackers who planned the attacks in Europe and the United States, could not have imagined in their wildest dreams that the Twin Towers would be felled in this spectacular fashion.

the terrorist plot you refer to never really existed. The entire case is highly suspect. The idea of mixing explosives in a cocktail is absurd and for various reasons would never work in reality. Many of the other trials, if one careful examines the evidence are also rather 'fishy.' Many of the terrorists involved are mentally deranged, slow, or fantasists.

We are not under 'threat' from terrorism. Great and powerful nations like the United States are not threatened by a handful of amateur terrorists. These attacks, when successful are appalling and to be condemned, but to contend that we are somehow 'threatened' is a wild exaggeration.

How exactly are we 'threatened'? The loss of life is terrible and a tragedy for the individuals involved and their families, but our societies are not threatened in any meaningful way. In military terms, in strategic terms, they are meaningless, pin-pricks, though in terms of propaganda and symbolism they are incredibly important, but only because we fall into the trap of over-reacting and acting like we're afraid. Terrorism is a sign of military weakness, not strength. They want us to fall into the trap over-reaction.

Khadeeja
27 January 2009 at 15:32

As usual John Pilger represents the voice of sanity in a world which supports and reinforces the opposite. Regarding zionist media control, there is also the Jewish Internet Defence Force, a team which scours the net for anything anti-zionist, eg, edits wikipedia, posts pro-zionist comments. Any JIDF contributors here?

Morgan097
27 January 2009 at 18:29

JC3,

Pleased to meet you. Are you perhaps a descendant of the noted JC1?

(Confidentially, I too have always considered myself a Christ-like figure. Or was it Napoleon?)

JC: How the F could you possibly know that Bin Laden's 'objective was to have the Towers fall sideways'???

M: One day, within the exclusive confines of a walled community somewhere in sunny Cuba, North Carolina Agricultural and Technical State University's most famous engineering graduate (1986) whispered just this information into the cupped ear of a charmingly attentive listener. The gentleman's name was Khalid Sheik Muhammed.

JC: Are you Bin Laden?

M: You mean the sweet guy who writeon believes never really meant to hurt anyone on 9/11?

JC: And this: "And US targetting of Afghan and Pakistani militants is both careful and precise" is absolute rubbish and you know it.

M: Ah shucks, JC. I'm sorry you feel that way. It's just that were Uncle Sam not "both careful and precise," Afghanistan and Pakistan would now most certainly be radioactive parking lots.

JC: And, finally, '2824' [plus those that could have

potentially died in that thwarted plot you mentioned]

is, I'm pwetty pwetty sure, just an incy wincy bit less

than those that have died in Iraq, Afghanistan and

Gaza since this so called 'War on Terror' began.

M: (Oops - forgot to add the 202 unfortunates lost in Madrid.)

Actually, good ol' boy Saddam dispatched considerably more (innocent) victims than did GWB. And Hamas's predictably-inflated Gaza figure of civilian deaths is probably closer to 600 than 1500.

JC: Do you believe in Karma Morgan097?

M: I do indeed, JC. And so should you. About 6 million times.

JC3
27 January 2009 at 23:13

Well I'm glad you believe in Karma. Could you now

please explain to the world what the reference to

'about 6 million times' means. [And it's JC 3 if you

don't mind].

And I most assuredly believe in Karma. That's why I

reckon you lot are in a bit of strife.

JC3
27 January 2009 at 23:48

A great man once wore a T-shirt which said:

Terrorism is war for the poor.

and:

War is terrorism for the rich.

max caulfield
28 January 2009 at 03:22

Above all one has to confront that "system of which (Bush) and his freshly minted successor are products". A system defined by short sighted but easy success, and pettiness; a system that is basically us. The pictures and words coming out of Gaza (or anywhere else for that matter) no doubt make little appeal, but it would be wayward also to immediately or conveniently appoint what is dogmatically right and wrong with the only prerequisite a sense of misplaced moral indignation and its futile gratification. A curious outcome is while the refugees are slowly but surely grinded to oblivion by the Zionist military might, our no doubt potent verbiage are mis-perceived to have the same efficacy on our chosen "enemies".

Morgan097
28 January 2009 at 03:24

JC3:

That you fail to comprehend the karmic significance of the figure "6 million" suggests that you're either a mental defective, a moral imbecile or an admirer of Himmler extermination advisor, Auschwitz tourist and Radio Berlin personality Amin al-Husseini, whom his nephew Arafat publicly described as "our hero."

In fact, upon reflection, I've concluded that you're almost certainly all three.

JC3
28 January 2009 at 04:24

Hmm. Comprehending Karmic significance hey. I'm

glad you got that [plus all those loooooooovely and

completely and utterly unjustified names you

smeared me with] on the record Morgan097. Mighty

mighty glad indeed. Ta.

Oh, and by the way, moron, I never said that I did not

comprehend the 6 million reference. Here's what I

wrote once again just so we are perfectly clear:

"Could you now please explain to the WORLD .....

[etc. etc]"

Goodbye Morgan097. I've no time for people like

you.

max caulfield
28 January 2009 at 06:36

Above all one needs to look at that "system of which (Bush) and his freshly minted successor are products". A system defined by short-sighted though easy success and pettiness, a system that is basically ourselves. No doubt the pictures and the horror stories out of Gaza, and any such where at all for that matter, make little appeal, it is equally wayward to ascribe immediate and convenient us-and-them values largely on the prerequisite of unfulfilled indignation and its futile gratification. A curious, and disjointed, outcome is while the refugees are slowly but surely grinded into oblivion by the Zionist military might, our no doubt potent verbosity is mis-perceived to be having the same efficacy on our chosen enemies.

That the spokesperson is "calm and western-sounding, even blonde", etc is spotlighted by Pilger as a propaganda tool certainly holds, however it goes further than. This subliminal "one of us" recognition would demarcate the boundaries within which any and all debates would be conducted for the civilised western "us" world and this fallacious healthy dissent game has been carried on in this way for decades.

One seems then to be left with either carrying this aforementioned "legitimate" debate to the logical and unsustainable conclusion, or reframing his arguments without the existing parameters and risking being irrelevant and worse. Or the seemingly heartfelt concern for injustice and the oppressed amount to little more than feelgood consumerist wallowings.

max caulfield
28 January 2009 at 07:04

Above all one needs to look at that"system of which (Bush) and his freshly minted successors are products". A system defined by short-sightedthough easy success and pettiness, a system that is basically ourselves. No doubt the pictures and horror stories out of Gaza, and any such where for that matter, make little appeal, it is equally wayward to ascribe us-and-them values largely on the pre-requisite of unfulfilled indignation and its futile gratification. A curious, and disjointed, outcome is while the refugees are slowly but surely grinded into oblivion by the Zionist military might, our no doubt potent verbosity are mis-perceived to be having the same efficacy on our chosen enemies.

writeon
28 January 2009 at 10:06

The jocular pretense in the face of mass-slaughter, overweening pride, excessive conceit; in relation to one's own intellectual abilities, compared to those of others- mere mortals- is usually a clear sign of the lack of true understanding or even basic knowledge. This arrogance is normally in inverse proportion to one's actual capacity to think, analyse and seperate truth from fiction.

Morgan097
28 January 2009 at 12:59

writeon,

To accept your fantasy of a Bin Laden in any way seeking to minimize the number or to alleviate the suffering of his victims provokes only bitter disbelief.

Had you been one of the female flight attendants whose throats were slashed by his Islamist scum as they crowed "Allahu Akbar," you might have had the grace to temper your apologia for this monster.

As for the "mystery" of why Americans have consistently supported I*s*r*a*e*l, few of us will ever forget the sight of the WTC tragedy being greeted by Palestinian Arabs with rapturous celebration and the symbolic distribution of sweets. Arafat's goons, of course, feverishly rushed to confiscate as much of the incriminating film as they could, but while American networks gained access to it, their British counterparts oddly enough did not.

No, writeon, an atomic device most assuredly would have been Bin Laden's ideal weapon of choice. And probably that of most Arabs, as well.

Yadam
28 January 2009 at 15:48

Morgan0987

"WTC tragedy being greeted by Palestinian Arabs with rapturous celebration and the symbolic distribution of sweets".

I'm going to have to break the news to you. THAT PIECE OF FOOTAGE WAS IN FACT PALESTINIANS CELEBRATING A LOCAL ELECTION VICTORY AND NOTHING TO DO WITH 911. GOT IT!

Now go spread the word.

The reason it was shown on US news channels

is for obvious reasons, and it appears to have done the trick!

Morgan097
28 January 2009 at 19:08

Here's the depressingly lame official response from one of their own major propaganda outlets, Electronic Intifada:

"Where genuine rejoicing at the attacks was indeed apparent in the footage, anchors interpreting the footage made no effort to offer any context or background to the images, nor any attempt to separate those Palestinians portrayed from Palestinians as a whole."

writeon
28 January 2009 at 20:09

Morgan097,

Are you stoned? I'm not quite sure. I am sure that the ideas you think I have about Bin Laden are totally false. Why on earth stoop to the tiresome rhetorical trick of the strawman argument? Why attempt to put words in my mouth? Why can't you be honourable? Surely it's possible to debate a subject without recourse to that?

Bin Laden's importance isn't in his deeds, which don't have much significance in a military sense, but it's his ideas that are dangerous. The idea that it's possible to resist Western agression and domination and fight back, even against a super-power, and empire, like the United States.

Surely if we are going to fight terrorism and Bin Laden we need to do it intelligently and with a clear head? If we really are involved in kind of war, we should try to figure out how the enemy thinks and what makes him fight us? We have to understand the enemy so we can defeat them, if we don't, we risk, by our actions and ignorance, making him stronger and more dangerous. Is that sensible? I think not.Surely this is elementary reasoning?

I think we should fight terrorism intelligently and with maximum effect, not wasting our men and resources on stupid blunders which weaken us and strengthen the enemy, if we keep on going down that route we'll not only lose but we'll bankrupt ourselves in the process.

Why the hell has the West chosen to turn Bin Laden into frickin' hero like Robin Hood? Almost everything we do seems designed, in some perverse way, to show hundreds of millions of people that Bin Laden's ideas about the West are true! This is a stupid way to fight in my opinion. The slaughter in Gaza does exactly the same thing. We're seen as hypocrites, bloodthirsty butchers, agressive cowards, waging war on helpless civilians trapped in a cage.

We can't keep killing on scale like this and expect to win over hearts and minds at the same time. The collosal, destructive, fire-power at our fingertips seems to blind us and stop us thinking clearly.

writeon
28 January 2009 at 20:38

Let's try, though this is probably futile, as it seems people aren't amenable to arguments, to think calmly and rationally about this nuke scenario shall we?

If, after 9/11 the United States reacted with a vengence and invaded two countries that had precious little to do with the attack, killing hundreds of thousands; how would the US react to a nuke going off in an American city?

Obviously a nuke attack would be far, far, worse than 9/11, not thousands, but hundreds of thousands slaughtered and a terrifying level of destruction beyond imagining.

The response from the United States would be infinitely greater than the response to the 9/11 outrage. The US would start by nuking Iran and probably continue from there, wiping city after city and country after country off the map of the Middle East.

Now what country would attack the US with nukes knowing what the American response would be? One hits one American city and in return one is totally destroyed, so one wouldn't even enjoy one's triumph over America. How likely is such an attack, that would provoke such a devastating form of retaliation?

One cannot build a nuclear weapon in a garage. Also one needs to test the thing to see if it works doesn't one? How exactly does one do that and not be found out? We have to at least attempt to be rational when thinking about these horror scenarios don't we? Or doesn't rationality matter anymore? Do we want to be swept up in waves of emotion that make us blind and stupid, and worst of all ineffectual?

What frightens me isn't that Bin Laden gets a nuke. Something that's a fantasy. What frightened me was that he seems a lot smarter than Bush and his crew. Bin Laden thinks he can bring down the US without a nuke, he can use box-cuttters and few airliners, because the leaders of the US are so ignorant and arrogant that they'll walk into any trap he sets. This is what makes him really, really, dangerous.

a.m.r.
29 January 2009 at 12:17

From IHT article, 2008, "Hamas ratchets up its rhetoric against Jews" ( http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/03/31/mideast/hamas.php )

"In the Katib Wilayat mosque one recent Friday, the imam was discussing the wiliness of the Jew.

"Jews are a people who cannot be trusted," Imam Yousif al-Zahar of Hamas told the faithful. "They have been traitors to all agreements. Go back to history. Their fate is their vanishing. Look what they are doing to us."

At Al Omari mosque, the imam cursed the Jews and the "Crusaders," or Christians, and the Danes, for reprinting cartoons of Muhammad. He referred to Jews as "the brothers of apes and pigs."

The Hamas television station, Al Aksa, is harsher. It praises suicide bombing and holy war until Palestine is free of Jewish control. Its videos praise fighters and rocket-launching teams; its broadcasts insult the Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas for talking to Israel and the United States; its children's programs praise "martyrdom," teach the perfidy of the Jews and the need to end Israeli occupation of Palestinian land, meaning any part of the state of Israel.

Such incitement against Israel and Jews was supposed to be banned under the 1993 Oslo accords and the 2003 "road map" to peace. While the Palestinian Authority under Fatah has made significant, if imperfect, efforts to end incitement, Hamas, no party to those agreements, feels no such restraint."

a.m.r.
29 January 2009 at 12:18

It's probably worth having a look at the current Hamas Charter again:

Slogan: "Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes." (Article 8)

Jew-killing: "..the Islamic Resistance Movement aspires to the realisation of Allah's promise, no matter how long that should take. The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." " (from Article 7)

Palestine/Israel statehoods: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up." (Article 11)

Peace process: "Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of Palestine [including Israel] is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight." (Article 13)

a.m.r.
29 January 2009 at 12:26

From that same IHT article @ :

"[..] in a column in the weekly Al Risalah, Sheik Yunus al-Astal, a Hamas legislator and imam, discussed a Koranic verse suggesting that "suffering by fire is the Jews' destiny in this world and the next."

"The reason for the punishment of burning is that it is fitting retribution for what they have done," Astal wrote on March 13. "But the urgent question is, is it possible that they will have the punishment of burning in this world, before the great punishment" of hell? Many religious leaders believe so, he said, adding: "Therefore we are sure that the Holocaust is still to come upon the Jews."

Some Hamas videos, like one in March 2007, promote the participation of children in "resistance," showing them training in uniform, holding rifles. Recent shows displayed Abbas kissing Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Prime Minister Ehud Olmert of Israel under the slogan: "Palestine doesn't return with kisses, it returns with martyrs.""

NICHOLAS
05 February 2009 at 10:16

A criminal's medals

what a laugh....

An embarrassment and insult to lair Blair

why don"t we offer him same one here in uk ??

Oh yes ..

More Criminal Medals to come to this Leaders

that brought Misery to human Race

Spit on the them