Middle East
Israel's alternative independence day
Published 09 May 2008
Ben White reports on how some of Israel's Palestinian citizens marked the beginning of the country's 60th anniversary celebrations
Mothers with prams mixed with old men leaning on sticks, and groups of teenagers sang boisterously alongside those walking in silence. All along the stony path, the sun's rays shone through the tree tops to illuminate the flags and placards. Not every afternoon woodland stroll is labelled a "subversive challenge" to the state, but the Palestinian citizens of Israel were well aware of the significance of their alternative 'Independence Day' event, as they gathered on the ruins of Safuriyya, one of the hundreds of villages destroyed by Israel in 1948.
On a day when across the country, hundreds of thousands attended official military shows, firework displays and communal barbeques, this was the biggest event held by Palestinians inside Israel. Participating in the procession were the very top level Arab leaders, including Knesset members, the Higher Arab Monitoring Committee and the Northern Branch of the Islamic Movement in Israel.
The march began just outside Nazareth, close to the Israeli town of Tzipori, and a short walk from the site where the village of Safuriyya once lay. Some carried the names of destroyed villages, while others held up Palestinian flags and banners saying 'Yes to the right of return'. The rows of chairs laid out at the culminating rally were quickly filled, with people continuing to arrive as both Arabs and Jews gave speeches on the small stage.
The events that took place here sixty years ago are similar to what happened to many Palestinian communities during the Nakba (Catastrophe). Hit by aerial bombardment and artillery fire, many of Safuriyya's residents and defenders fled the village. A few months later, however, and hundreds had managed to return. As former deputy mayor of Jerusalem, Meron Benvenisti described, "the Israeli authorities worried that this ‘infiltration’ would result in all the houses in the village being occupied once again, making it impossible to house Jewish immigrants there or to confiscate the land".
It was therefore decided to force out all those who remained in the village, the residents loaded onto trucks and expelled to neighbouring villages. Safuriyya's land was later parceled out to nearby settlements, and like the rest of the 'cleansed' Palestinian villages, the confiscation was made official by a series of laws passed in the Israeli Knesset.
This annual 'return march' is organized by the Association for the Defense of the Rights of Internally Displaced Persons in Israel (ADRID), a 16 year old group established to represent the roughly one quarter of a million Palestinians in Israel who lost their homes and villages but still stayed within the borders of the new state.
Daoud Badr, ADRID coordinator, spoke to me before the march began, as we watched people piling out of hired buses and walking across fields to reach the starting point. "It will be thousands here today", he said, "from all over Israel – the Galilee, Haifa, Lod, Ramle, Jerusalem, even the Negev."
Why did he think that so many would come to something like this, on Israeli Independence Day? "Well we look at this from the other side. For us, it is not independence, but the Nakba. Our people were expelled from their homeland, though unlike the refugees in the Arab countries or Gaza and the West Bank, we are in fact very near our destroyed villages, but unable to get our confiscated property back."
Those on the march echoed Daoud's sentiments. Many were the children or grandchildren of dispossessed Palestinians, like 14 year old Mutaz, who was helping to carry a banner, and who stressed it was his family's history that made him want to attend. Jamil, a middle-aged man walking quietly with his friend told me the importance of the march was because "we want everybody to know they can be sure we are coming back – even if it takes a long time".
For some, the march was not the only way they were marking the Nakba. Rasmiya, a 41 year old woman from Kabul, a town further north and home to many internally displaced Palestinians, had already been with her family to pray at the old graveyard, as well as taking her children to visit their grandfather's old home.
Across the highway from Rasmiya and the rest of the marchers, however, was a smaller counter-rally organized by right-wing Israelis. As the Palestinian return march came to a close, and participants dispersed, trouble broke out. There are conflicting reports about what happened; the police blamed stone-throwing by marchers, while march organizers claimed that some of the Israelis had begun chants of 'Death to Arabs'.
Police responded to the confrontation with stun grenades and arrests, while Arab Knesset member Wasil Taha was among a number injured. It was a bitter end to the march, but a visible reminder that for Palestinians inside Israel, to remember is a political act. Events yesterday made me recall an essay by Lila Abu-Lughod and Ahmad H. Sa’di, who wrote of how "Palestinian memory is particularly poignant because it struggles with and against a still much-contested present”.
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96 comments from readers
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Cybertiger
09 May 2008 at 13:14 There is nothing to be proud of and nothing to celebrate. No peace since the foundation of the state - the Israeli democracy really has made an unholy mess of things. Time to move on ... things can only get better ... in Texas.
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Pierre
09 May 2008 at 14:31 The occupation of Palestine by the jews cannot be resolved by any other method than allowing the Palestinians forced out of their homeland to return.
The entire worlds population with an iq of over 60 knows the jews racist position is not sustainable.
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Amihai
09 May 2008 at 15:05 The village of "Zafuriyya", as Mr. White would not tell us, probably because he does not know as well as does not care, is actually the site of the town of "Zippori" which at some point of Jewish history in Eretz Israel (Land of Israel), long, very long before the Arab conquests of the Land, was the sit of the Sanhedrin, the most important institution of the Jewish community of the Land after the destruction of the Jewish temple by the Romans. Indeed, the entire region of the Galilee at the time was populated by Jews, before the sojourns of nomadic tribes into the region and their gradual taking over of it from Jewish hands.
Also, what Mr. White would not tell us, possibly because, being based in Brazil of all places he simply does not know is that the "nakba" (catastrophe in Arabic) about which he writes, is actually, in the minds of Muslim-Arabs, the very establishment of the state of Israel. The fact that - based on UN resolutions and based on the universally accepted right of all peoples - the Jewish people has set out to establish its own nation-state on a very small part of its historic homeland of Eretz Israel is perceived by them as a catastrophe. And this terrible event of course came about in contrast to their intention at the time, 1947-1949, to extinct the very possibility to establish this tiny state, to "cleanse" the country of all Jews and decimate any trace of Jewish existence here.
To this very day the Arab leaders mentioned in this article, 60 years after the establishment of the state of Israel, and 60 years after the refusal of the local Arab leaders to establish their own nation state in the country, that they refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist – although they do recognize the fact that it does – and to accept it, based on the universally accepted right of all peoples to national self-determination, as the nation-state of the Jewish people.
Indeed, do you, Mr. White, recognize Israel's right to exist, or if you will, the right of this UN member state to exist as the nation-state of the Jewish people, or do you too intend to see the dismantling of the Jewish state?
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rock
09 May 2008 at 15:07 Hi Pierre,
before making such conclusive comment it might worth to check some of the facts:
1) just go and check what was the available "air force" that was responsible for the bombardment...
2)most of the arab villages were part of a military campaign against Jewish settlements and Jewish people. they were engaging war because they did not approve Israel existence, and lost. villages that were not part of the war, did not suffer (as much at least...)
3) all the Jewish population that was expelled and forced to leave their homes and property in Arab countries seems not to be an issue, though in a similar volume to the displaced Palestinians. ever wondered why?
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Amihai
09 May 2008 at 15:29 The day before yesterday, 7 May 2008, was Israel's memorial day of its fallen soldiers who have sacrificed their lives for the sake of the establishment and defense of the nation-state of Israel, and yesterday was Israel's Day of Independence, it would only be appropriate to respond to the detractors of the very right of Israel to exist (Mr. White?) – having singled this tiny state out of all other nation-states - by sharing with readers the content of Israel's Declaration of Independence which reflects on the historic and legal basis for its coming about and the ideals and goals of the state's founders, indeed their vision written in the midst of a war initiated by our Arab neighbors both within and without the country. These founders were people ranging from the far anti-Zionist left, e.g. the Communist Party, to the far nationalist right and religious establishment, representatives of whose elements have been among those who signed this Declaration:
THE DECLARATION OF THE ESTABLISHMENT OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, 14 May 1948
ERETZ-ISRAEL [(Hebrew) - the Land of Israel, Palestine] was the birthplace of the Jewish people. Here their spiritual, religious and political identity was shaped. Here they first attained to statehood, created cultural values of national and universal significance and gave to the world the eternal Book of Books.
After being forcibly exiled from their land, the people kept faith with it throughout their Dispersion and never ceased to pray and hope for their return to it and for the restoration in it of their political freedom.
Impelled by this historic and traditional attachment, Jews strove in every successive generation to re-establish themselves in their ancient homeland. In recent decades they returned in their masses. Pioneers, ma'pilim [(Hebrew) - immigrants coming to Eretz-Israel in defiance of restrictive legislation] and defenders, they made deserts bloom, revived the Hebrew language, built villages and towns, and created a thriving community controlling its own economy and culture, loving peace but knowing how to defend itself, bringing the blessings of progress to all the country's inhabitants, and aspiring towards independent nationhood.
In the year 5657 (1897), at the summons of the spiritual father of the Jewish State, Theodore Herzl, the First Zionist Congress convened and proclaimed the right of the Jewish people to national rebirth in its own country.
This right was recognized in the Balfour Declaration of the 2nd November, 1917, and re-affirmed in the Mandate of the League of Nations which, in particular, gave international sanction to the historic connection between the Jewish people and Eretz-Israel and to the right of the Jewish people to rebuild its National Home.
The catastrophe which recently befell the Jewish people - the massacre of millions of Jews in Europe - was another clear demonstration of the urgency of solving the problem of its homelessness by re-establishing in Eretz-Israel the Jewish State, which would open the gates of the homeland wide to every Jew and confer upon the Jewish people the status of a fully privileged member of the comity of nations.
Survivors of the Nazi holocaust in Europe, as well as Jews from other parts of the world, continued to migrate to Eretz-Israel, undaunted by difficulties, restrictions and dangers, and never ceased to assert their right to a life of dignity, freedom and honest toil in their national homeland.
In the Second World War, the Jewish community of this country contributed its full share to the struggle of the freedom- and peace-loving nations against the forces of Nazi wickedness and, by the blood of its soldiers and its war effort, gained the right to be reckoned among the peoples who founded the United Nations.
On the 29th November, 1947, the United Nations General Assembly passed a resolution calling for the establishment of a Jewish State in Eretz-Israel; the General Assembly required the inhabitants of Eretz-Israel to take such steps as were necessary on their part for the implementation of that resolution. This recognition by the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish their State is irrevocable.
This right is the natural right of the Jewish people to be masters of their own fate, like all other nations, in their own sovereign State.
ACCORDINGLY WE, MEMBERS OF THE PEOPLE'S COUNCIL, REPRESENTATIVES OF THE JEWISH COMMUNITY OF ERETZ-ISRAEL AND OF THE ZIONIST MOVEMENT, ARE HERE ASSEMBLED ON THE DAY OF THE TERMINATION OF THE BRITISH MANDATE OVER ERETZ-ISRAEL AND, BY VIRTUE OF OUR NATURAL AND HISTORIC RIGHT AND ON THE STRENGTH OF THE RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS GENERAL ASSEMBLY, HEREBY DECLARE THE ESTABLISHMENT OF A JEWISH STATE IN ERETZ-ISRAEL, TO BE KNOWN AS THE STATE OF ISRAEL.
WE DECLARE that, with effect from the moment of the termination of the Mandate being tonight, the eve of Sabbath, the 6th Iyar, 5708 (15th May, 1948), until the establishment of the elected, regular authorities of the State in accordance with the Constitution which shall be adopted by the Elected Constituent Assembly not later than the 1st October 1948, the People's Council shall act as a Provisional Council of State, and its executive organ, the People's Administration, shall be the Provisional Government of the Jewish State, to be called "Israel".
THE STATE OF ISRAEL will be open for Jewish immigration and for the Ingathering of the Exiles; it will foster the development of the country for the benefit of all its inhabitants; it will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations.
THE STATE OF ISRAEL is prepared to cooperate with the agencies and representatives of the United Nations in implementing the resolution of the General Assembly of the 29th November, 1947, and will take steps to bring about the economic union of the whole of Eretz-Israel.
WE APPEAL to the United Nations to assist the Jewish people in the building-up of its State and to receive the State of Israel into the comity of nations.
WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the up-building of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
WE EXTEND our hand to all neighboring states and their peoples in an offer of peace and good neighborliness, and appeal to them to establish bonds of cooperation and mutual help with the sovereign Jewish people settled in its own land. The State of Israel is prepared to do its share in a common effort for the advancement of the entire Middle East.
WE APPEAL to the Jewish people throughout the Diaspora to rally round the Jews of Eretz-Israel in the tasks of immigration and up-building and to stand by them in the great struggle for the realization of the age-old dream - the redemption of Israel.
PLACING OUR TRUST IN THE "ROCK OF ISRAEL", WE AFFIX OUR SIGNATURES TO THIS PROCLAMATION AT THIS SESSION OF THE PROVISIONAL COUNCIL OF STATE, ON THE SOIL OF THE HOMELAND, IN THE CITY OF TEL-AVIV, ON THIS SABBATH EVE, THE 5TH DAY OF IYAR, 5708 (14TH MAY,1948).
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Serosch
09 May 2008 at 16:17 The creation of the Illegal Jewish Colony (IJC) was indeed the greatest crime of the 20th century.
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Wrong
09 May 2008 at 16:35 what mr. white doesn't know is that Israelis are always right... there is always a reason, and the blame is always on somebody else's shoulders. if israelis did something 'bad' (which happens reaaaly very seldom) it was because of these bloody terorists. So mr, white, when you right be careful. if what you right is not within this framework you are certainly being fooled :-)
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buckylatard
09 May 2008 at 16:41 They only thing worse than starting a stupid war which you than end up losing miserably, is crying about it after! Also we these people not citizens of Egypt, Syria, Jordan one thing is for sure they were not citizens of "Palestine".
Peace is the most important thing, but why should Israel take these people in if their own countries will not?
Israel is a FACT and is not going anywhere, how about looking at what the real problems are in the Arab world rather than just using them as a scapegoat. Grow up!!!
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Amihai
09 May 2008 at 17:10 "The creation of the Illegal Jewish Colony (IJC) was indeed the greatest crime of the 20th century" writes the poster.
Is such a statement a form of ignorance or rather malice? Or is it perhaps an expression of both?
The "illegal Jewish colony" was established based on the British Balfour declaration and the recognition by both the League of Nations and the United Nations of the right of the Jewish people to establish its national home in its historic homeland of Eretz Israel, hardly "illegal" act. Furthermore, the Jewish state of Israel was established as the nation-state of a particular people, the Jewish people, based on the universally accepted right of all peoples to national self-determination and independence, indeed based on the very same right on which the overwhelming majority of European states have come about, except Israel came about on a tiny piece of land the size of Wales.
And was it ever a "Jewish colony"? Of course not! The Jewish people has always maintained presence in its historic homeland, for nearly 4,000 years. I wonder how many Britons can claim the same collective attachment to the British isles?
And the coming of Israel into being, claims the poster, has been "the greatest crime of the 20th century", no less.
This poster compares the legal establishment of a national home to a people to the slaughters of many millions of people during the First World War, to the Second World War, the Balkan Wars, the Bolshevik Revolution, the Chinese Revolution, the wars of South East Asia, indeed to the endless number of wars both Europe and the rest of the word have experienced during the dark days of the 20th century.
So, is it ignorance or malice, or perhaps both that is the motivating factor for stating the above??!!
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Madav Katz
09 May 2008 at 19:49 Only we in ersatz Israel can be both victims and perpetrators
Only we can never be accused of racism - it fuels anti-semitism but don't worry if it's the sort that affects Palestinians
Only we in Israel can never be wrong
Only we in Israel can indulge in ethnic cleansing and talk about transportation but never be accused of Fascism
To criticise Israel is Nazi
Now I order you all to celebrate the creation of the world's only liberal democracy
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seattlenorm
09 May 2008 at 19:54 Abba Eban said it correctly before the UN in 1967 after the defeat the Arab forces: "This may be the first time in history that the victor pleads for peace, and the loser demands unconditional surrender." This sorry state of affair continue to this day.
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mazaluk
09 May 2008 at 20:23 Oh dear, the Nuovo Statesman never misses a chance to bash Israel - and therefore encouraging other ignorent neo-lefties to indulge their Jew-bashing instincts!
How sanctimonious can you get? To repeat ad nauseum - the Jewish people were here before the Arabs, before the British, before the Mamalukes, before the Romans, before the Greeks, Before the Babylonians, all of whom occupied the Land of Israel.
We now haw have the THIRD Jewish Commonwealth and Israel is an established fact.
The Arabs conquered Spain, but were driven out; they conquered parts of France, but were driven out. They also conquered Israel - but they were driven out.
Perhaps we should give the Arabs back Spain and France as well?
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nanny brett
09 May 2008 at 20:40 good for you Ben White to write it how it is, for truth and justice. we need people like you,to expose the truth. from Nanny, a supporter in Cambridge
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no1arsenalfan
09 May 2008 at 22:05 Mr White.........you disgust me
;)
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Pierre
09 May 2008 at 22:40 Terrorism works, irgun,stern gang and other sub humans are a shinning example..........
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Carl Jones
09 May 2008 at 23:21 My God.....just read the comments, there is no chance of peace.LOL
Don`t worry my children, Israel is about to be smacked by the NWO....of course, you wll be led to believe it was someone else wot did it.LOL
The NWO loves its "sacrifices"....Israel next.LOL
Now you know why Dame Porter fled the promised land and is now holed up in London`s Mayfair.LOL
Oh, BTW, if you didn`t know, Iran has two nukes and the NWO is relying on this.LOL
I Iike Cybertiger`s idea to move Israel to Texas.LOL....
....LOL
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Amihai
10 May 2008 at 00:36 Abba Eban also stated that: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" to bring about an accommodation of peaceful co-existence between Arab and Jew, between Israel and its Arab – Palestinian or otherwise – neighbors.
The advocates of the Muslim-Arab cause abroad such as the Brazilian based Mr. White only contribute to the perpetuation of Eban's observation.
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Robert Powell
10 May 2008 at 16:33 You don't have to fall of a cliff to know it hurts. Amihai/Nadav! How's life in the asylum. They let you out to set off a couple of fireworks?
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Cybertiger
10 May 2008 at 17:40 @Amihai Katz
"Abba Eban also stated that: "The Arabs have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity" to bring about an accommodation of peaceful co-existence between Arab and Jew, between Israel and its Arab – Palestinian or otherwise – neighbors. "
And Abba Eban also said,
"Men and nations behave wisely when they have exhausted all the other alternatives"
It appears that the nation-state of the Jewish people is not yet in a state of exhaustion.
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Gideon Polya
10 May 2008 at 23:58 The fundamental messages from the WW2 Jewish Holocaust (6 million victims, 1 in 6 dying from deprivation) and the WW2 Holocaust in general (30 million Slav, Jewish and Roma dead) are "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone" - messages that have been monstrously violated by Apartheid Israel, its Anglo-American backers and its racist Zionist (RZ) supporters for 60 years.
Apartheid Israel and its racist Anglo-American backers can be seen as not merely anti-Arab anti-Semitic (ethnic cleansing Indigenous Arab Palestinians) but also anti-Jewish anti-Semitic by grossly violating the core moral messages from the Jewish Holocaust.
In the over 40 year occupation and mass imprisonment of the Occupied Palestinian Territory (current population about 4 million), post-1967 excess deaths total 0.3 million and post-invasion under-5 infant deaths total 0.2 million. There are 7 million Palestinian refugees; 2,400 Occupied Palestinian infants are "passively murdered" by war criminal Apartheid Israel EVERY YEAR; 85% of Indigenous Palestinian Christians have fled; outstanding Jewish South African Government Minister Ronnie Kasrils describes the Zionist-occupied Holy Land as "worse than Apartheid".
We cannot walk by on the other side - national and international Sanctions and Boycotts must be urgently applied against racist Zionist-run Apartheid Israel and its Zionist-Bush-ite backers. to STOP the Holocaust-defiling, anti-Jewish anti-Semitic and anti-Arab anti-Semitic Racist Zionists (RZs) NOW - it worked against Apartheid Israel-backed Apartheid South Africa.
For condemnation by wonderful, anti-racist, humanitarian British and Australian JEWS of Apartheid Israeli crimes against humanity see Independent Jewish Voices ( IJV: http://jewishvoices.squarespace.com/ ) and Independent Australian Jewish Voices (IAJV: http://www.iajv.org/ ). See also "Apartheid Israel’s 60 Years of War, Theft & Palestinian Genocide ": http://mwcnews.net/content/view/22356/42/ ).
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Douglas Chalmers
11 May 2008 at 00:37 Its a typical "settler society" with the same traditions and mores of any colonialism.
There may be those who believe that "Its either them or us" as well as those who are happy to "live and let live" but they have mostly all come from Europe and Russia in the past 60 years.
There are few Semitic Jews and most of the "Semites" are actually Palestinan and Lebanese Arabs. Even the Ethiopians are Semites. Israel is now a white Jewish settler culture obliterating evrything and everyone in its path, intentionally or otherwise.
Its motherland is not the biblical Israel but the other Jewish migrant groups in America, Australia and elsewhere who continue to support the fake state of Israel through donations of $billions for invasive "settlements" and by usurping foreigners political policies through propaganda and cunning manipulation viz-a-viz organizations such as AIPAC.
Pity the children of what was all once free Palestine http://poetryforpalestine.spaces.live.com/
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Amihai
11 May 2008 at 13:59 Indeed, they have never missed an opportunity to miss an opportunity, including a serious factually based substantive discussion about the sad plight of human beings, flesh and blood who, having been led by fantasies of death and destruction of the other, of the Jewish community of Eretz Israel/Palestine, left their homes and properties never to be able to return to them, 300,000 to 700,000 of them. At the very same time those who led them have been perpetuating their misery in concentration camps in the midst of the wealth of the Arab world into which they fled and have been keeping them there for the past 60 years. And this is in contrast with the millions of other refugees of the 20th century, worldwide, have been settled and prospered during the very same period elsewhere. How sad, how sad indeed!
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Gideon Polya
11 May 2008 at 15:32 There are about 11 million Palestinians in the world today - about 1.5 million Palestinian Israelis (second class citizens under Nazi-style, Apartheid-style race laws), 4 million Occupied Palestinians (imprisoned in the Bantustan concentration camp remnants of Palestine in horribly abusive conditions - under violent military enforcement and now for over 40 years) and 5.5 million Palestinians outside the Holy Land and forbidden to return to their Homeland by remorseless, evil, genocidal, racist Zionists (RZs).
The Nazis who ethnically cleansed MY family from Hungary murdered 0.2 million Jews out of a Jewish population of 0.7 million (see Gilbert, M. (1969), Jewish History Atlas (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, London).
Gilbert, M. (1982), Atlas of the Holocaust (Michael Joseph, London)) .
By way of comparison, the racist Zionists (RZs) have created 7 million Palestinian refugees (4.3 million registered with the UNHCR) and post-1967 excess Occupied Palestinian deaths (mostly from war criminal deprivation) total 0.3 million.
Whereas post-1945 the Nazi Germans followed a post-Holocaust protocol summarized by the acronym C4A - Cessation of the killing, Acknowledgment of the Crime, Apology, Amends and Assertion "never again" - the racist Zionists have satisfied NONE of the CAAAA requirements and are STILL at it .
EACH YEAR Apartheid Israel passively murders 2,400 under-5 year old Occupied Palestinian infants (see UNICEF for data: http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/index.html ) and annual Occupied Palestinian excess deaths (avoidable deaths, violent and non-violent deaths that should not happen) total about 5,000.
The only thing that will make the patently anti-Arab anti-Semitic and intrinsically anti-Jewish anti-Semitic racist Zionists (RZs) start respecting the core messages from the Jewish Holocaust - "zero tolerance for racism" and "never again to anyone" - are comprehensive national and international Sanctions and Boycotts against racist, human rights-abusing genocidal Apartheid Israel and its racist Zionist, Bush-ite, and neo-Bush-ite supporters (see: http://mwcnews.net/content/view/22356/42/ ).
All decent people must stand up and say "We are all Palestinian" (see "We are all Palestinian": http://mwcnews.net/content/view/19915/42/ ) and tell the racist Zionists running Apartheid Israel and their evil, racist, neo-con supporters to "let my people go".
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Madav Katz
11 May 2008 at 18:38 How sad. How sad indeed. CUCKOO!
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Harvey
11 May 2008 at 22:00 Scrolling through this cesspit of antisemitism masquerading as anti Zionism ,I'm drawn to the sad conclusion that journals such as the Independant and the New Statesman act as a magnet for those with an irrational hatred .Objectivity and context fly out the window when limited intellects seize upon every scrap of argument which benefits their malign views.
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Jenny Webb
11 May 2008 at 22:03 Silly arse!
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Harvey
11 May 2008 at 22:20 To Jenny
Thats exactly what I mean
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Pierre
12 May 2008 at 02:34 The Jews would have you believe that a Jewish child is more precious than Arab child and therefore its ok to steal their land,water and future.
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 09:51 Harvey: "Scrolling through this cesspit of antisemitism masquerading as anti Zionism ,I'm drawn to the sad conclusion that journals such as the Independant and the New Statesman act as a magnet for those with an irrational hatred .Objectivity and context fly out the window when limited intellects seize upon every scrap of argument which benefits their malign views".
Indeed!!!
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Cybertiger
12 May 2008 at 10:27 "Indeed!!!" ...
... Amihai Katz ... is a silly arse too!!!
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 13:00 1948, Israel and the Palestinians: the true story
Sixty years after its establishment by an internationally recognized act of self-determination, Israel remains the only state in the world that is subjected to a constant outpouring of the most outlandish conspiracy theories and blood libels; whose policies and actions are obsessively condemned by the international community; and whose right to exist is constantly debated and challenged not only by its Arab enemies but by segments of advanced opinion in the West.
During the past decade or so, the actual elimination of the Jewish state has become a cause célèbre among many of these educated Westerners. The "one-state solution," as it is called, is a euphemistic formula proposing the replacement of Israel by a state, theoretically comprising the whole of historic Palestine , in which Jews will be reduced to the status of a permanent minority. Only this, it is said, can expiate the "original sin" of Israel 's founding, an act built (in the words of one critic) "on the ruins of Arab Palestine" and achieved through the deliberate and aggressive dispossession of its native population.
This claim of premeditated dispossession and the consequent creation of the longstanding Palestinian "refugee problem" forms, indeed, the central plank in the bill of particulars pressed by Israel 's alleged victims and their Western supporters. It is a charge that has hardly gone undisputed. As early as the mid-1950s, the eminent American historian J.C. Hurewitz undertook a systematic refutation, and his findings were abundantly confirmed by later generations of scholars and writers. E ven Benny Morris, the most influential of Israel 's revisionist "new historians," and one who went out of his way to establish the case for Israel 's "original sin," grudgingly stipulated that there was no "design" to displace the Palestinian Arabs.
The recent declassification of millions of documents from the period of the British Mandate (1920-48) and Israel 's early days, documents untapped by earlier generations of writers and ignored or distorted by the "new historians," paints a much more definitive picture of the historical record. These documents reveal that the claim of dispossession is not only completely unfounded but the inverse of the truth. What follows is based on fresh research into these documents, which contain many facts and data hitherto unreported.
Full article may be read at:
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Jane Greene
12 May 2008 at 13:09 You know it would be lovely to have a discussion about Israel without this dreadful name-calling - the stupid blanket claims about the New Statesman, the barely concealed racism of Amihai, Pierre and others. There is a bottom line here which is Israel exists and so should Palestine. Both states should be able to cohabit but I've never less optimistic that this can happen.
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 13:12 For a fully annotated version of the article posted above: 1948, Israel, and the Palestinians: Annotated Text by Efraim Karsh please go to:
http://www.commentarymagazine.com/viewarticle.cfm/1948--isra...
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 13:41 Jane Greene: "You know it would be lovely to have a discussion about Israel without this dreadful name-calling....." Indeed, so why, Ms. Greene calling people who disagree with you "racists"? Instead of name calling I suggest you review the article I have just posted, and then go up thread and read Israel's Declaration of Independence behind which I, Amihai, stand 100%. Is this an expression of racism or rather an honest forward looking approach towards an accomodation of peaceful co-existence between Arab and Jew, between Israel and its Arab neighbors? Unless you wish Israel did not co-exist - which would be a form of racism in my mind - I suggest you apololgize for your name calling!
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Jane Greene
12 May 2008 at 15:06 I've read your posts over many months Amihai/Nadav - the how sad, how sad thing is just one of the giveaways that you're one and the same person. There's not a doubt in my mind that you (and many others like you on both sides) are part of the problem, not part of the solution in the Middle East. There's no point in engaging with you in this forum or any other because you don't engage properly back - that's because you are a very prejudiced person - racially and otherwise.
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Robert Powell
12 May 2008 at 15:30 Jane, I think that Amihai is an anti-Zionist plant. He's deliberately annoying so he turns people against Israel. Unless, of course, he has no self knowledge....
Cuckoo!
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 15:37 Dear Ms. Greene, is Israel's Declaration of Independence a racist one - posted above on 9 May 2008 at 15.29? I fully stand behind this Declaration. Do you? If yes, why? And if not, why not?
I look forward to an honest substantive response instead of name calling once again, an act that serves no useful goal and is reflective of the person who does the name calling.
P.S. I would also suggest that for the sake of better appreciating this human conflict you read Ephraim Karsh's article up thread, unless of course you don't wish to have facts and relevant context stand in the way of your wishful perception of reality.
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Jane Greene
12 May 2008 at 16:51 Robert, I'm not sure which is correct but one thing is sure, he's not very persuasive, is he? For one thing he keeps on veering off the point. He also has difficulty distinguishing between fact and fiction. I also dislike the fact he feels the need to accentuate my gender. I mean, has he ever called you Mr Powell?
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 17:21 If you were my friend, Ms. Greene, I would refer to you by your first name. Yet, you are not, hence my formal reference to you.
Your refusal to deal with the very factual Israel's Declaration of Independence, accepted and signed by leaders from the far left to the far right of the Jewish community of Eretz Israel (Land of Israel), is indicative of where you stand: You probably don't recognize Israel's right to exist - although you may of course recognize the fact that it does - do you?
And singling out a particular people, a race, the Jewish people, to be denied its universally accepted right of national self-determination and independence is a manifestation of an anti-Jewish racism, regardless of whether you are a Ms. or a Mr., and regardless of whether or not you are of Jewish background or not!
Thus, when accusing others of being racist (name calling, as you yourself put it!), it is wise to view oneself in the mirror every once in a while and be a bit introspective, don't you think?
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Robert Powell
12 May 2008 at 17:32 Jane if I remember rightly you said: "There is a bottom line here which is Israel exists and so should Palestine. Both states should be able to cohabit but I've never less optimistic that this can happen." I don't believe you singled out any race. I suppose it's easier to scream 'anti-semitism' and 'blood libel' than deal with the real arguments. Two wrongs (one past, one present) do not make a right... Stop me if I'm putting words in your mouth.
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Viscount Firm
12 May 2008 at 17:39 I thought Palestine was British.
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Tom Paine
12 May 2008 at 17:54 Amihai, I'd like to ask you a couple of questions and I think a straight and honest answer would be insightful for all of us. Do you believe that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic? Do you believe any criticism of Israel by a non-Jewish person is anti-semitic? Robert and Jane please stop teasing him!
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Amihai
12 May 2008 at 18:12 "Do you believe that any criticism of Israel is anti-semitic? Do you believe any criticism of Israel by a non-Jewish person is anti-semitic?"
The answer to each one of the questions above in a simplistic way is obviously NO! Indeed, introspection and self-examination of Israeli society by Israelis in Israel - I am an Israeli living in Jerusalem, incidentally - is a very common activity on the part of the Israeli public, and we are not anti-Semites.
Also, Israel, a liberal democracy and a nation-state at that, as any other political entity may be examined by anyone, Jew or non-Jew alike.
It is the denial of Israel's RIGHT to exist - despite the acknowledgement of the FACT that it exists - and the obsession with which some tend to approach Israel critically, regardless of factual information and regardless of relevant context, because it is the nation-state of a particular people, the Jewish people, that suggests a sense of anti-Jewish racism (note, not necesarily anti-Semitism in its clasical form!)
Thus, I invite you to review Israel's history as reflected in Ephraim Karsh's article up-thread and Israel's Declaration of Independence, also available up-thread and based on factual and relevant contextual information attempt to be critical of Israel. Yet, some appear to prefer to rely on their negative wishful thinking and perception of reality when it comes to Israel. I wonder what that means to you.....
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Tom Paine
12 May 2008 at 19:31 I don't infer the denial of Israel's right to exist everywhere but let that pass. Another question, Amihai. Do you believe the Palestinian people are as good as you?
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Harvey
12 May 2008 at 20:02 To Tom Paine
Let me add to Amihais reply by stating that criticizing Israel is not antisemitic .However,singling out Israel for international sanction out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East and elsewhere for that matter is antismitic in the extreme.
Israels record on human rights is far better then that of any other country in the Middle East. You will find that there are more human rights groups upholding the rightful aspirations of the Palestinians then actually exist within Arab countries.
Indeed the Israeli governments harshest critics are Israelis from both within and outside the government .
The problem that we as diaspora Jews /Israelis
is the wall of silence displayed by the left wing liberals/ Islamic groups when it comes to addressing equally important areas of conflict and human rights issues.
On Saturday there was a demonstration in London commemorating the Nakba .
It begs the question as to why ,there have to my knowledge, never been mass demonstrations from the Left on issues such as
>The real genocide currently taking place in Darfu where almost 500,000 African tribespeople have been massacred by Arab militia the Janaweed.
>The sectarian murder and mayhem in Irak and now Lebanon and not to forget the spectacle of Hamas and Fatah recent violent civil war .
>Explain the silence over the Algerian civil war where almost 250,000 died or the Iran /Irak war .
>Why are there no mass protests against the fascist totalitarian Iranian regime whose leader proclaims there is no homosexuality in Iran and then for good measure executes any that come to light from hoists in town squares.
>Why the silence on the Russian obliteration of Chechyna . Was there a vote to boycott Russian goods or to ban Russian academics from our universities.
Until these questions are answered and until some recognition of balance and context to this seemingly intractable conflict is given then I believe Israel is right to view this excessive opprobium as something more then natural criticism.
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 03:15 Mr. Paine,
I have invited you to comment about Israel's Declaration of Independence and have even posted the translation of the whole document for you do read, reflect and then respond. Why do you attempt to evade discussing substance?
Yes, the Palestinian Arabs are as human beings as all other human beings - and after all, I am only a human being - for all the complexites that all human beings experience.
Do you, sir, think that we, Jews, are as good or bad as you (plural) are and as a people of nearly 4,000 years have the universally accepted right of national self-determination and independence as all other peoples do?
I look forward to read answers, not only questions!!!
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Tom Paine
13 May 2008 at 10:32 Amihai, I'm choosing not to comment about Israel's declaration of independence because of two reasons. One is that you always try to put these discussions on your terms and I'm trying to break down what you really think. The second is that just because someone made a declaration 60 years ago or had particular intentions, it doesn't mean that they have lived up to them since. If it reassures you I'm happy to confirm I think all races should be treated as equal because they are - inspite of some thinking they are more equal or chosen than others. Do you think Israel's "liberal democracy" treats all its citizens equally? Do you think Israelis as a collective whole treat their fellow citizens of Arabic descent as well as they treat each other?
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 12:14 Well, Mr. Paine, let us examine your questions about the state of Israel based on the expectations that Israeli society set out for itself to achieve, that is Israel's Declaration of Independence of 14 May 1948.
Has in your opinion Israel achieved its own expectations?
If yes, please do share with us what in your opinion Israel has achieved.
And if not, please share with us what has it not.
I for one look forward to your factually based learned observation.
P.S. I assume, having read your response, that you are impressed positively by Israel's Declaration of Independence. I for one am in light of the fact that I know the context and the reality within which this statement was made and is still being held as a beacon in internal Israeli discourse. Indeed, any serious examination of Israeli society must be viewed in my opinion based on this most important document in Israel's history.
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Tom Paine
13 May 2008 at 12:41 Yes Amihai, let us examine my questions. Again you are trying to shift this on to your ground because, as usual, you are unable to see any nuance or difference of opinion to yours as legitimate. Because that's your perspective in the end - people either agree wholesale with you about Israel or they are anti-semitic.
So to reiterate: I think all races should be treated as equal because they are - inspite of some thinking they are more equal or chosen than others. Do you think Israel's "liberal democracy" - whatever its initial goals - treats all its citizens equally? Do you think Israelis as a collective whole treat their fellow citizens of Arabic descent as well as they treat each other?
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 12:55 "Yes Amihai, let us examine my questions".
Well, how are your questions addressed or not addressed in Israel's Declaration of Independence?
Thank you for your response.
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Pierre
13 May 2008 at 13:02 Palestinian jews kill 34 Americams and seriously wound 174 others, See "USS Liberty"
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Tom Paine
13 May 2008 at 13:16 Actually I was trying to seek out your view - but you choose to hide behind a 60-year-old document. Speaks volumes.
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 13:35 No, sir, Israel's Declaration of Independence is a document being used, as I indicated above, in TODAY'S legal as well as public discourse in Israel.
This Declaration is being held as a beacon for us Israelis, against which we examine ourselves as a state and as a society. In fact, we do so nearly as much as the American constitution is being viewed by the American public discourse and legal system.
You, an outsider, may not wish to discuss that which guides us, Israelis, but that will not stop us Israelis from doing so. Refusing to deal with this reality is an illustration of an attempt to look for the lost coin under the street lamp instead of where it was actually lost.
Hence I invite you one more time to read Israel's Declaration of Independece - one accepted by the entire Jewish community in the Land, from the very far left to the very far right, from the most secular Jews to the national religious ones, men and women alike - reflect about it and share with us that which you like as well as that which you don't like.
If you would vote for it as well - if you were an Israeli - please let us know that, and also, do let us know why you would not do so.
Thank you.
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Robert Powell
13 May 2008 at 14:57 Oh give up Tom. Really there's no point - he can't discuss anything rationally and without being theatrical. He doesn't want to answer the questions because he is bound to an notion of Israel rather than the reality. Just mock him - it's all he deserves. I don't think any sane Israeli would welcome him chipping in to argue on their side. Cuckoo Nadav!
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Jane Greene
13 May 2008 at 15:29 Is there a vote on this declaration? Hardly sounds likely does it!
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 15:54 "Is there a vote on this declaration?" asks Ms. Greene in reference to Israel's Declaration of Independece.
Please, do read the following, noting that Jerusalem at the time was under Arab siege, from which Jews could not leave hence several of the people who were to take an active part in the vote were not there - Tel-Aviv. Also please note that the people who signed the Declaration consisted of both men and women, secular people and religious people, people on the far left, center and far right. In essence, a full representation of the entire Jewish community of the country:
Vote - On 12 May the Minhelet HaAm was convened to vote on declaring independence. Three of the members were missing; Yehuda Leib Maimon and Yitzhak Gruenbaum were stuck in besieged Jerusalem, whilst Yitzhak-Meir Levin was in the United States.
The meeting started at 1:45 and ended after midnight. The decision was between accepting the American proposal for a truce, or declaring independence. The latter option was put to a vote, with six of the ten members present supporting it:
• For: David Ben-Gurion, Moshe Sharett (Mapai), Peretz Bernstein (General Zionists), Haim-Moshe Shapira (Mizrahi Workers), Mordechai Bentov, Aharon Zisling (Mapam).
• Against: Eliezer Kaplan, David Remez (Mapai), Pinchas Rosen (New Aliyah), Bechor-Shalom Sheetrit (Sephardim and Oriental Communities).
Chaim Weizmann, chairman of the World Zionist Organization and soon to be the first President of Israel, endorsed the decision, after reportedly asking "What are they waiting for, the idiots?"[2]
Read the whole document here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel(
The people who signed the Declaration were:
David Ben-Gurion
Daniel Auster
Mordekhai Bentov
Yitzchak Ben Zvi
Eliyahu Berligne
Fritz Bernstein
Rabbi Wolf Gold
Meir Grabovsky
Yitzchak Gruenbaum
Dr. Abraham Granovsky
Eliyahu Dobkin
Meir Wilner-Kovner
Zerach Wahrhaftig
Herzl Vardi
Rachel Cohen
Rabbi Kalman Kahana
Saadia Kobashi
Rabbi Yitzchak Meir Levin
Meir David Loewenstein
Zvi Luria
Golda Myerson
Nachum Nir
Zvi Segal
Rabbi Yehuda Leib Hacohen Fishman
David Zvi Pinkas
Aharon Zisling
Moshe Kolodny
Eliezer Kaplan
Abraham Katznelson
Felix Rosenblueth
David Remez
Berl Repetur
Mordekhai Shattner
Ben Zion Sternberg
Bekhor Shitreet
Moshe Shapira
Moshe Shertok
This information may be found hereat:
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Jane Greene
13 May 2008 at 16:12 So the answer is no. There isn't a vote on this document but there was by a few leading figures 60 years ago. So what on earth is he talking about?
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 16:26 Ms. Greene, I assume "he" is me, is it not?
Well, regardless of politelness, or lack thereof, this document was accepted by the highest authority in the country at the time and accepted by Israel's parliament, the Knesset, once it was established and to this very day it is considered, legally and publically, as the most important expression of Israel's vision of itself, its past and its future with regard to itself, the Jewish people, the international community, the members of the Arab minority in the state and Israel's relationship to its Arab neighbours.
This document, madam, is a beacon to us all in Israel.
Perhaps it is time to learn about us, Jews in general and Israeli Jews in particular - and about our aspirations before slinging mud at everything Israel and dragging the name of Israel in the durt each time the opportunity presents itself.
Indeed, perhaps it is time to admit: Wow, I did not realize that Israel actually set out to establish a liberal democracy with full respect to the law and to all its citizens, Arab and Jew alike? You know, it is OK to admit one's incorrect view of reality, especially when one does not experience this reality and instead is fed by sources of information which are not over sympathetic to the very existence of the Jewish state, to say the least.....
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Robert Powell
13 May 2008 at 17:10 Yes well we all listen to the BBC over here. Now you don't get more impartial than that.
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 17:37 Interesting, the depth of thinking of the detractor of my argument here is reflected in the following statements: "…we all listen to the BBC…" and "Just mock him - it's all he deserves".
I hope this is not a reflection of the true progressive and enlightened circles of Great Britain. I do hope
the concept of free substantive exchange of information and knowledge is still alive and well in the UK.
I therefore invite Mr. Powell as well to share with us his analysis of Israel's Declaration of Independence and share with us those elements of the document that he likes as well as those that he does not.
Thanks.
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Robert Powell
13 May 2008 at 18:00 I think the road to hell was paved with good intentions. What do you think about the Stern Gang? Terrorists or freedom fighters?
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Amihai
13 May 2008 at 18:10 Mr. Powell, I suggest you address Israel's Declaration of Independence, a reflection of a wholse society and its leadership, instead of dealing with the the Leherut Isael (LeHI) (For the Freedom of Israel)group of a few hundreds.
I wish you pleasant reading of the Declaration, reflection and written analysis of it which I hope to read tomorrow morning.
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Robert Powell
13 May 2008 at 19:33 Nadav, what are you giving me homework? How hilarious! Were you a teacher before they committed you by any chance? Cuckoo! You know what they say about teachers, don't you?
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 04:52 Good morning,
Well, it appears we are back to: I "listen to the BBC" and "just mock him - its all he deserves" attitude towards increasing the depth, and even just a tiny bit, of understanding of the subject at hand.
Somehow I doubt many people would take seriously such a poster, to say the very least.....
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Robert Powell
14 May 2008 at 09:16 And how do they see you, my crazy little fanatic? You think they are persuaded by your over-long postings? Do you think they wipe away a tear at your rhetoric-rich, content-poor prose? You think they feel empathy when you fail to see any other perspective but your own? Your prejudice shines through in every word but you are too dim to see that actually you are a very poor advert for Israel - a country which many on the left in this country have supported from the outset and have stuck with through thick and thin. Yes I know you're going to come back on having learnt nothing and I've definitely made a mistake in being serious rather than my usual hilarious self (I try not to fly in the face of public opinion). Anyway it's six of the best for me. I've a very strong inkling you're looking forward to it!
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 10:00 Indeed, somehow I doubt many people would take seriously such a poster, to say the very least..... the one whose depth of understanding the subject at hand amounts to: I "listen to the BBC"
And having equiped himself with all the information and knowledge needed by istening to the BBC, his response to the subject at hand, or rather the person who attepts to communicate with him substantively is: "just mock him - its all he deserves".
I repeat, I hope this is not a good example of intellectual persuit of in the UK, I hope.....
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Cybertiger
14 May 2008 at 10:14 On 14 May 1948, Ben Gurion declared Israel's independence ...
Sixty years on ... on 14 May 2008 and there exists a truly shameful democracy that kills Palestinian children in defence of the rogue nation-statelet ...
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Viscount Firm
14 May 2008 at 10:35 Pursuit old boy. It's intellectual pursuit.
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 11:06 Thank you, Mr. Viscount Firm, for the spelling correction.
Now, back to the question at hand, exactly 60 years since Israel was proclaimed, what do you think of its Declaration of Independence? Why don't you share with us substantively your positive and negative observation of this important document. Mr. Powell, Ms. Greene and Mr. Paine seem to be unable to express any level of analysis of the document that has been a beacon to Israeli society, the same for which they don't have a single positive word to say. What about you?
You may find the full translation of this document at the following site:
http://www.israel.org/MFA/Peace I look forward to hear from you as well.
Thank you.
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Viscount Firm
14 May 2008 at 11:13 Good lord man do you know nothing? You don't address a viscount as Mr!
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 11:28 I am sorry Viscount Firm. I shall address yuo from now on as Ms.
But what about Israel's Declaration of Independence? Have you had a chance to read it, sir/madam/whatever?
Being an intelligent person, I am sure you have something substantive to say about this important document, proclaimed on 14 May 1948, the day when the British armed forces left the Jewish people's homeland.
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Viscount Firm
14 May 2008 at 12:11 Editor I find that grotesquely offensive!
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 12:34 Viscount Firm, it is really not clear to me what is offensive about my response to you. I do hope it is not my invitation to you to comment about Israel's Declaration of Independence, or is it? Please, do let me know what has offended you, would you?
Thank you.
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 12:39 P.S. It is not clear to me why the site I have provided has been shortened to the point it can not be used. The reason may well be technical. In any event, Viscount Firm, I am listing it again here
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Admin
14 May 2008 at 12:54 It is technical - long links bust our pages.
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 12:55 Admin, thank you!
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 13:40 Of some interest to posters here:
"Diplomatic tensions have arised between Israel and Egypt due to a harsh statement made recently by Egyptian Culture Minister Farouk Hosni. In a conference that took place in the Egyptian Parliament last week, the minister said that he 'would burn Israeli books himself if found in Egyptian libraries'".
For the full story go to:
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Cybertiger
14 May 2008 at 13:45 @Mr. Amihai Katz
"Viscount Firm, it is really not clear to me what is offensive about my response to you. "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viscount
Perhaps you will now understand - one reason - why you are considered grossly offensive.
PS. Sod the Declaration of Independence - Israel has proved a miserable failure.
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 13:54 Thank you Mr./Ms. Cybertiger for your comment.
Could you please elaborate on your "miserable failure" statement when trying to describe Israel's Declaration of Independence? What is "miserable" about it? And of course, what is positive about this Declaration in your mind?
I would really appreciate a substantive response and not only a one or two words statements that describe a historic document.
I hope I don't ask for anything that is beyond your intellectual ability to handle, or is it?
Thank you.
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Jane Greene
14 May 2008 at 13:57 Law! It's like a stuck record.
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 14:05 Hello Ms. Greene,
Have you had a chance to read and reflect upon Israel's Declaration of Independence? What do you think of it? You know, exactly 60 years ago to the day (14 May 1948) this document was proclaimed as part of the establishment of the Jewish state of Israel. How do you like it? I look forward to read your enlightened response. Amihai
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Pierre
14 May 2008 at 14:20 Jewish terrorists blow up tourist hotel killing dozens.
See "King David Hotel"
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 14:29 Hi, Pierre,
Interesting that you mentioned the hotel in which George W. Bush is presently staying during his visit to Israel and to Jerusalem to celebrate with us our 60th year since Israel's was proclaimed based on UN resolutions.
Have you ever visited the hotel and the lovely view that appears from its windows, Jerusalem's Old City aross the valley called in Hebrew since ancient days Gey Ben Hinom.
I invite you to come and visit.
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Reuanj
14 May 2008 at 16:01 Amihai,
Who is it that's building a wall around their territory, denying access to schools and hospitals, restricting access and dividing communities? It sure isn't the Palestinians!
It all went wrong when we west tried and failed to apologise for the Holocaust. They created a state around Jerusalem, apparently assuming that the Israelis were going to be satisfied with a set amount of land. But no- they had to invade neighbouring countries and excersize their 'right' as a relatively new country to expand.
And we, the west, have allowed it to happen. Shame on us.
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Amihai
14 May 2008 at 16:34 Reuanj,
Actually it was Israel that accepted the UN plan of 1947 to establish a Jewish state and an Arab state. The Arabs rejected the UN vote to do so and initiated a war at the Jewish community of the country (30 Nov 1947) aiming to avoid the establishment of the Jewish state and actually to "cleanse" the country of any Jewish existence here.
That was came to a "cease fire" of sorts in 1949, and re-ignited by the Arabs in June 1967.
The results of these wars initiated by the Arabs aiming at the dismantling the Jewish state Israel managed to repell the Arab forces beyond the territories from which they had attacked it.
As in 1947 and 1948, Israel is still eager to reach an accomodation of peaceful co-existence between Arab and Jew, between it and its Arab neighbours. Yet, the very Arabs who since 1918 refused to recognize the Jewish people's right to establish an independent political entity on ANY parcel of land in our historic homeland still refuse to recognize Israel's right to exist - although most of them do recognize the fact that Israel exists.
While we correspond here a Hamas rocket, probably a Grad, hit a shopping mall in the southern city of Ashqelon, in which a a number of infants and children were hit while visiting a clinic there. This is the nature of the Arab response to Israel's stretched out hand of peace. And we, Israelis, have been experiencing this type of response in an organized form since 1920 with very few stops in between.
I therefore suggest you begin to view this conflict with a bit of a critical mind regarding the Arab side of it, Palestinian Arab or otherwise.
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Pierre
14 May 2008 at 22:04 There is a price to pay for stealing another man's land so get used to it ,The day that the US decides it is to much of an embarrassment, and they have'nt any oil in any event , to continue support ing the land theives and their racism , will be the first step towards peace.
FREE PALESTINE
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Amihai
15 May 2008 at 03:58 Pierre,
May I ask you, do you know how to discuss the question at hand substantively void of slogans?
I have invited you directly and indirectly to do just that by both discussing actualy historic events, illustrated by Israel's Declaration of Independence but of course you refuse.
Is your refusal to do so due to lack of knowledge and understanding of the context, or is it simply a form of malice, or perhaps both?
In any event, spewing slogans and expecting them to substitite a meaningful discussion does not reflect well on the sloganeer at a site that is designed for "thinking people".
Have a very pleasant day, sir.
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pugnax
15 May 2008 at 04:30 Exhausted and sagging beneath the weight of Aihai's relentless verbosity, I recommend the very succinct formulation of Rabbi Yakov Perrin (in his tribute to demented mass murderer Baruch Goldstein): A million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail. To the many Israelis who do not share that sentiment, I apologize.
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Cybertiger
15 May 2008 at 07:51 @pugnax
"A million Arabs are not worth one Jewish fingernail. To the many Israelis who do not share that sentiment, I apologize."
I take it you make no apology to Rabbi Amihai Katz?
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Amihai
15 May 2008 at 08:26 Pierre,
You ended your latest post with the slogan "Free Palestine". Would you be kind enough what you mean by this slogan, both with regard of the word "Free" as well as "Palestine"
I look forward to your factually based intelligent response.
Thank you.
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IrritatedofTonbridge
15 May 2008 at 09:16 And what of Magna Carta? Did she die in vain. I look forward to a factually based intelligent response but not from the troll.
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Amihai
15 May 2008 at 10:21 Welcome, IrritatedTonbridge, to this "discusstion" about Israel's Declaration of Independence, the one read out loud on 14 May 1948 by David Ben-Gurion when he proclaimed the establishment of the State of Israel 60 years ago.
True, we have not advanced this discussion very far beyond the regular sloganeering stage. Perhaps you could do so and helping us by sharing with us the positive and the negative elements of this Declaration that has been a beacon for us, Israelis, all these years in conducting our affairs. The principles expressed in the Declaration of course have been with us, the Jewish people, from time immemorial.
Would you be kind enough, sir/madam, and let us know what you think about the subject in more than a dozen words?
Thanks.
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Pierre
15 May 2008 at 14:26 The issue of peace in occupied Palestine rests solely on the jews insistance on racial purity, if the Palestinians were to return to their land/homes tomorrow the whole issue is mute.
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Reuanj
16 May 2008 at 09:14 Pierre.
Yes, that would work.
But unfortunately the Israelis would never let them do that, would they?
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Harvey
16 May 2008 at 11:54 Pierre
Occupied Palestine ?
The United Nations Partition Plan 1947 provided for a seperate homeland for both Jews and Arabs .Although the land allotted to the Jews was vastly reduced compared to the original Balfour Declaration it was accepted by the Jews.
However the Arabs were unable to accept this and attacked Israel the day after Israel declared independance .The refugee problem that was precipitated by this war is a complex issue. Some were driven out by Israeli forces.
Many left having been promised that the Jews would be annihilated and that they would soon return to their homes.The majority fled from where the fighting was greatest. Those who chose to remain and their descendants are part of the1,500,000 Palestinian citizens of Israel.
Again in 1967 the Arabs under Nasser were intent on destroying Israel . Once again their forces were routed .
However ,Israel offered to return all lands captured with the exception of East Jerusalem which would be internationalised.
The Arab response was and has always been
No negotiations .No recognition .No peace.
Im not sure what you are implying by racial purity but I suggest you take a stroll through parts of London Bradford Leicester,etc and see how well multicultural England intergrates.
And then for good measure check out Jordan , Saudi Arabia and see how their Jewish/Christian populations are thriving .
Difficult as they cannot reside as citizens of those countries.
To Pierre
You are right it wont happen because what the Arabs cannot win by war they will not win by the back door in the shape of demographic shift.
Go back to the drawing board and search for a solution which does not include Israels demise thx
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Cybertiger
19 May 2008 at 13:15 @Harvey
"Go back to the drawing board and search for a solution which does not include Israels demise thx"
The Zionists have one final chance. And that one last throw of the dice has already been made across the drawing board of the last chance saloon.
The solution is Texas.
Of course, neo-Zionist eschatology envisions the construction of The Third Temple ... in Dallas.
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