Posh-bashing: Enough to make you want to leave the Bullingdon Club
Benedict Cumberbatch should realise that being sneered at for being posh just isn't that bad.
By Glosswitch Published 15 August 2012 10:07
The actor Benedict Cumberbatch is considering leaving the UK on account of “all the posh-bashing that goes on“. Sick and tired of being “castigated as a moaning, rich, public-school bastard”, he might just up and leave. I sincerely hope this doesn’t happen. My partner and I have had him on “the list” for years, all thanks to a particularly saucy scene in To The Ends of The Earth. Visits to the SS Great Britain in Bristol haven’t been the same since and for that we have Benedict to thank.
Like Cumberbatch, I too have been a victim of posh-bashing. Unlike him, this was not because I attended a posh school. Au contraire, I attended a normal state school, but was bashed on account of being the type of person who needlessly throws around phrases such as “au contraire” (I also have a ridiculously long name, a barrister dad and degrees from Oxford and Cambridge. I might have a northern accent, but I know where I stand on the poshometer, and it’s a million miles away from Coronation Street). So Benedict Cumberbatch, I know where you’re coming from (well, not literally, since I didn’t go to Harrow. But generally, I mean). Posh-bashing is mean, and it’s clearly wrong. But is it really that big a deal?
When I mentioned the posh-bashing to my partner – an Old Sennockian, no less – he was less than sympathetic. “Ooh, I wouldn’t mind a bit of the old posh-bashing with Benedict,” he winked, trying (unsuccessfully) to create a cheeky innuendo. See? That’s just the kind of attitude the poshos are up against, and it’s from their own kind (self-hating poshos are the worst). Me, I feel for Benedict, but mainly due to his total inability to get a bit of perspective. Being sneered at for being posh just isn’t all that bad. We all get sneered at for being either too posh or too common (at Oxford even I found myself in situations where, relatively speaking, I was a veritable Hilda Ogden). It’s just not that important.
Of course, the ideal position to be in is that of a very rich person from a very poor background. That way you get all the kudos of being self-made and having suffered and none of the shit that actually comes with being poor. Of course, you won’t be able to pass this unique status on to your children. Send them to whatever school you like and they’ll still be posh kids now. All the same, it’s better than them being poor.
According to Brendan O’Neill in the Telegraph, “posh-bashing has replaced prole-bashing as the nastiest strain in British politics”. It really hasn’t, though. All the “media handwringing over the Oxford Bullingdon Club” isn’t happening because it’s fun. It isn’t fun. It’s depressing that our country is in the hands of people who have so little idea of what middle-class muddling, let alone real deprivation, actually is. Despairing over David Cameron’s cossetted background isn’t the same as salivating over the apparent uselessness of chavs. Neither is it the same as being a bit mean to Benedict Cumberbatch. I’d defend Cumberbatch’s right to be left in peace way before Cameron’s, but still – even the sexiest Sherlock Holmes needs to get a grip.
In 1983 I had a full-on scrap with a classmate who accused me of being posh. Looking back, it was brilliant – everyone standing around after school in a huge circle, clapping and chanting “scrap! scrap!” – but at the time it was terrible. It got broken up by a teacher, just when I was about to win (whatever that would have involved), leaving my nemesis to insist that she was the victor. What with her being the cool, non-posh one, everyone went along with this (but it wasn’t true. Au contraire, I was way harder). Anyhow, a decade later I got my revenge. I had a place at Oxford and my dad was defending my nemesis for ABH. She was working as a hairdresser and, putting our differences aside, I went to her for my “going to university” haircut. She told me my dad was doing a good job and a small part of me couldn’t help thinking “Hah! Posh girl won in the end”. But it was a rubbish thought and, quite rightly, it made me feel crap. Posh people always win in the end. The bashing makes no difference at all.
This post first appeared here on glosswatch.com. Glosswitch is a feminist mother of two who works in publishing.
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28 comments
Thank you for the comments - I do take the point about "posh-bashing" being ultimately counter-productive and encouraging a misplaced sense of victimhood. It's not a practice I'd seek to encourage or even condone - but I do think it's legitimate to call out the over-reaction to it.
Perhaps what I have written is a bit "this happened to me at school, right, and..." but it is an anecdotal response to an anecdotal complaint about playground-style bullying. I'm not saying there isn't a more serious debate to be had about class (and the thing about Sennockian - no, I wouldn't have known what it is, either, if I hadn't met my partner - the ridiculous exclusivity of this language is part of the [possibly not very well made] point).
Finally sorry for the "odd description" - it went with another post where it made more sense. Perhaps this time it should just read "is posh"!
'Posh people always win in the end' - yes, one good example is the current government. Osborne can screw the entire country as much as he wants, and still not only have a job, but get well paid as well.
Surely homeless people get the worst of it. They don't have a home, or any fashion style, or even a particular hair style, yet they are still mocked and considered inferior to everyone else. To add insult to injury people say any money given to them will go on alcohol or drugs - those same people tend to be found drunkenly staggering past them on a Friday or Saturday night, perhaps even urinating in a side streets.
It might be bad taking a bashing for being posh, but imagine how inconvenient it is to not only be homeless, but to be bashed for it.
He gets accused of whinging because he is whinging. And while we're at it, if you're even thinking of going then fuck off. Who cares about such self obsession, apart, of course, from yourself. And while you're somewhere else, think about the fact that you had a privileged background and don't like people pointing it out. Why's that then?
In the late Swinging Sixties and the early Psychedelic Seventies public school chaps and old school boys came up with the wizard solution - Mockney.
In those far-off days, how an upper-class accent made people cringe. The obvious solution was to speak 'Proper'.
At contemporary Oxbridge, the undergrad who speaks with anything close to a 'lower-class' accent had better be ready for a little ribbing or worse.
To listen to a wonderful version of the English upper-class accent is quite easy. Old films with George Sanders, Tom Conway, Basil Rathbone, Louis Hayward, George Macready and Ray Milland( Welsh not English) are readily viewable on the internet. A revelation and not an English actor among them. Oh, yes, we'll include Peter Finch and Richard Burton for old times sake.
Pygmalion
In the late Swinging Sixties and the early Psychedelic Seventies public school chaps and old school boys came up with the wizard solution - Mockney.
In those far-off days, how an upper-class accent made people cringe. The obvious solution was to speak 'Proper'.
At contemporary Oxbridge, the undergrad who speaks with anything close to a 'lower-class' accent had better be ready for a little ribbing or worse.
To listen to a wonderful version of the English upper-class accent is quite easy. Old films with George Sanders, Tom Conway, Basil Rathbone, Louis Hayward, George Macready and Ray Milland( Welsh not English) are readily viewable on the internet. A revelation and not an English actor among them. Oh, yes, we'll include Peter Finch and Richard Burton for old times sake.
Pygmalion
Labour was never the party of anything like the whole of the working classes, nor did those classes ever provide anything like all of its support. Britain has neither a proletariat nor a bourgeoisie in the Marxist or Continental sense, but several working classes and several middle classes.
There was never any incongruity about the presence of middle or upper-class people in the Labour Party, and not least among Labour MPs. Nor about their having come from, and far from cast off, either Liberal or Tory backgrounds. Especially in Labour's early years, those backgrounds routinely included activism, and indeed parliamentary service, on behalf of either of those parties.
Herbert Morrison professed never to have seen any conflict "between Labour and what are known as the middle classes". Aneurin Bevan denounced class war, calling instead for "a platform broad enough for all to stand upon" and for the making of "war upon a system, not upon a class". Both served under Clement Attlee (Haileybury, Oxford, the Bar and the Officer Corps), who was succeeded by Hugh Gaitskell (Winchester and Oxford).
Harold Wilson was a Fellow of an Oxford college, and the son of a chemist and a schoolteacher. Jim Callaghan was a tax inspector. Michael Foot's public school may have been the Quakers' Leighton Park, but it was still a public school, which duly sent him to Oxford; he and his brothers indicated just how far the sons of a provincial solicitor could climb if they were sent to the "right" schools. Neil Kinnock's father may have been a miner, but he himself was a lecturer. John Smith was a QC. We all know about Tony Blair, Gordon Brown and Ed Miliband.
And why not?
Whereas the present Cabinet is drawn from the overclass, which emerged in the 1980s and 1990s as a result of the same processes as produced the underclass, and which is at least as cut off from life as it is normally lived. But it is much less numerous, it is concentrated almost exclusively in one corner of the country, and it is much more pernicious economically, socially, culturally and politically.
Although related to the old aristocracy, its members have no social conscience, rather regarding their enormous wealth as "merit", and as entitling them to behave in absolutely any way they see fit, not least with regard to drugs. At different times, David Cameron has defined both secondary schooling and "a normal university experience" as necessarily including illegal drug use. What next? And when is someone going to take him on?
Between 1688 at the latest and 1914 at the earliest, the political life of the United Kingdom and of her predecessors was defined by the struggle between the expanding middle and the top. There might have been dire consequences for the emerging working class, but the process eventually delivered it the means of redress. Yet the middle class has now been conned into believing, both that its own interests are identical to those of Cameron or of George Osborne, and that the skilled working class, so comparable in income, concerns, and often even tastes these days, is indistinguishable from the characters on Shameless. The actual median household income is around £23,000: that is the real middle.
Thank God that Cameron has not seen the last of that Bullingdon Club photograph, and therefore cannot carry on selling himself, Blair-like, as just an ordinary, if vaguely upper-middle-class, husband and father in early middle age. No, he is not. That Club is an organisation which exists specifically in order to commit criminal damage and other offences, even including assault, just so that its members can prove their ability to pick up the bill. Imagine if a group of youths the same age, but who got up at six o'clock in the morning to pay for universities, were to organise themselves into a club, complete with a membership list, officers, some sort of uniform, the works, for the express purpose of smashing up pubs. They would rightly be prosecuted as a criminal conspiracy, and could reasonably expect to be imprisoned.
Well, living in rural England, as I have done most of my life and which is a very different matter from merely owning great swathes of it while living in Knightsbridge or Notting Hill, I suspect that the publicans of Oxfordshire are not without connections in the local constabulary and magistracy. How would it look for Cameron, Osborne and the preposterous Boris Johnson if the Bully Boys were to be locked up for just long enough to have themselves sent down? Or how would it look for the University of Oxford if they were not sent down under such circumstances?
'Britain has neither a proletariat nor a bourgeoisie in the Marxist or Continental sense, but several working classes and several middle classes.'
Except, of course, all modern states have 'several working classes and several middle classes' and there's no such thing as 'Marxist or Continental sense': there's Marxism (of which there are several) and there's the Continent (of which there are more than several countries).
Well said.To some degree the 'conviction politics' of the Labour party can still be said to be in the interests of the many. The Tories will always have a hard time convincing anyone that they are not only in it for 'the few'
Well said.To some degree the 'conviction politics' of the Labour party can still be said to be in the interests of the many. The Tories will always have a hard time convincing anyone that they are only in it for 'the few'
Btw, no one knows what a Sennockian is. get over it.
What a load of bollox.People are people. Let's not bring the argument down to ''so and so said this to me at school'' FFS I would have hoped the NS wasn't still stuck in the school playground.
I really liked the article by the way - it captured how I feel about it all. I was also the child of a professional parent in a state school and had some similar experiences - incredible difference in outcomes with friends whose parents were manual workers, etc. I do find it a bit tiring the way everyone gets me wrong - half the time people who don't know me seem to assume I have my own grouse moor - except complaining is such a silly waste of breath, and is so stupid when in fact I am (one is?) the lucky one, as your article shows so well.
People are taking what Benedict says way out of context. It sounds to me like he was merely venting. Don't suppose if I he had said "I'm sick of all this posh bashing I could kill someone" that would make headlines for him to be a potential killer? I doubt he's seriously considering a permanent relocation to the US.
Not only is being sneered at for being posh "[not] all that bad", it's also what posho-Oxbridge-twats deserve.
Please don't go Benedict, I'm sure you're a good egg.
To55er
Two things about posh-bashing:
1. It's counter-productive. The natural response it inspires in anyone on the receiving end - as the author is honest enough to say - is "well, f*ck you then." Anyone who goes from a private school to university is familiar with the range of good-banter-to-slight-ribbing-to-near-the-knuckle-to-outright-hostility that occasionally gets thrown around. And, for most of that spectrum, it's all good fun and games. But - and here's the thing - ten years later you always find the people who were dishing out the nastiest bits of it complaining that public schoolboys form cliques with their own kind and never mix with anyone different. But why on earth would they bother if it means facing down outright hostility? What's in it for them?
2. It's completely socially acceptable to say things and make generalisations about posh people that, if said about poor people (ooh, look, even that phrase sounds socially unacceptable!) would be hailed as the vilest bigotry. (this goes double the second politics gets involved. Everyone knows the "tories lower than vermin" quote, imagine if a tory had said that about Labour.)
"Posh people always win in the end. The bashing makes no difference at all."
Not quite; the difference the bashing makes is that they feel justified in winning and little compassion for those who lost.
The thing about having a moan about being posh-bashed:
What has Benedict Cumberbatch gained from saying he's been "castigated as a moaning, rich, public-school b*****d, complaining about only getting posh roles" as quoted from the Huff Post other than "did you see what you just did there?". I like Cumberbatch, liked his Sherlock, didn't think much of the modern day re-imagining, but he made it work. Not once had I considered his social class. But does he expect sympathy? "It's just so predictable ... so domestic, and so dumb... It makes me think I want to go to America." What response is there really other than "Bye-bye!"
I'm being harsh. But just before happening on the "Sherlock Actor Benedict Cumberbatch Wants To Quit UK Over 'Posh-Bashing'" in the Huff, I read "Disability hate crime: is 'benefit scrounger' abuse to blame?" in the Guardian. Quote:
'It was karaoke night at the Weaver's Arms when Chantelle Richardson was attacked by a stranger because of her disability. The 23-year-old, whose face has been disfigured since she was 14, had already left one pub that night after comments about her condition. Now drinking with mates at her local in Oldham, it happened again.
"Is your friend wearing a mask?" said the woman who'd just stopped singing as one of Richardson's pals approached the mike. "Your friend's face is disgusting." The woman repeatedly told Richardson: "Take off your mask," before punching her in the face. The blow was so strong it could have been fatal and left Richardson hospitalised for weeks.'
If you read the article you find out the Home Office estimates that 65,000 disability hate crimes occur each year. Somehow I suspect every one of them would happily swap their problems with the one that has Benedict Cumberbatch considering fleeing to America.
I can't help concluding he should try visiting the real world before entering into a 'woe is me' monologue.
Ain't the human race wonderful ...a world full of pricks .. posh pricks and the rest
but pricks none the less ... psychopaths to a man..
I am not sure I agree. England is full of stupidity so the kind of unpleasantness you speak of may take place (though as a person with a posh voice at UCL I never came accross it and I did come accross a Chav's night at the student uni where priviledged young people dressed up as the undeserving poor - burberry, and pretend pregnant for girls) but most of the public school clique who run the country went to Oxford where private school pupils are not I think a minority. The fact that they form an uncaring clique - well that surely has more to do with the dynamics of power and the fact that they went to private schools in the first place no? And in any case the kind of clique that you talk of long pre-dates state school majorities at university. The norman conquest seems more plausible to me if you want to press the idea of English exceptionalism...
in
1. Not quite. Prejudice is prejudice whichever way it is directed but you need to take account of the differences in power. Generally, jibes aimed at the public school boys and girls from those less well off could be considered just that (of course the degree of nastiness and venom in any given individual case may be cause to consider it something other than that-but lets assume we're talking about the kind of light hearted banter you seem to me to be alluding to). Jibes from the rich towards the poor can be considered as an abuse of power or bullying because the public school types have had the advantages that others have not had and to seem to take that for granted is an insult. If you couple this with an attitude that is based on the belief that you are owed the positions of leadership and authority in society then really, it is little surprise that many people respond to the privately educated in this way.
2. Tories are lower than vermin. You have to be absolutely braindead or evil to have any truck with their ideology. I would be glad if you, or any of the others commenting, could prove otherwise.
Sorry, but on 1, either I didn't articulate properly or you've slightly missed the point I was making. The point is *not* to do with nastiness one way being some kind of 'power-redress' and nastiness the other being abuse, it's that the people on the receiving end of it are unlikely to think to themselves "well, I had a cosy upbringing and they had a hard one, so fair's fair". they're likely to think "well, f*ck you then."
And frankly, even if they did think the former, it would be pretty damn patronising. Wouldn't it?
On 2...oh, what's the point? Yes, yes, All tories, everywhere, are evil and braindead all the time and anything they do is twisted and corrupted by the vile ideology they support and you're brilliant and wonderful and compassionate and a delicate snowflake just because of who you vote for. Well done.
I don't think the point being made is about power 'redress'. It's about how power functions. The power relationship is de facto. The point that the 'public school types' don't deign to think they have had a good upbringing and that fair is fair-seems to be the point that is being articualted. It wouldn't be patronising it would be the decent thing to do. The decent thing to do for many from a public school background is a foreign concept. Not everyone from the background is like that by any stretch of the imagination but enough of them are for it to rustle the feathers of those not so privileged.
On point 2. I have to agree with Bovril. Conservatism is based on pirnciples of greed and favours tipping the balance of power further towards those who already have it. If you can't see the problem with that you must have difficulty in understanding the most basic of moral (and ostensibly other) concepts. I have seen no counter argument against Bovril's assertion only a petty insult that shows how misguided your perception of the world is.
"Conservatism is based on pirnciples of greed and favours tipping the balance of power further towards those who already have it."
Unsupported value judgement
"If you can't see the problem with that you must have difficulty in understanding the most basic of moral (and ostensibly other) concepts."
combined with ad hominem attack of your own.
I'm not a Conservative. But I know a few. Their credo isn't greed, it's individual liberty. Now, there's a whole library of argument on where the boundaries of liberty are, and at what point positive and negative liberty cease to be benign and &c &c. It's a problem that's confounded greater minds than mine and, I'm pretty damn sure, than yours. But you know what? They don't characterise people who disagree with them as "lower than vermin." (Nor do many people on the left, for that matter.) Because the second you do that, you're stating, ipso facto, that you're not open to debate. Who bothers to debate with vermin?
So, as I said, what's the point? Inviting 'counter-argument' to the proposition "anyone who disagrees with me is scum' is just a little bit disingenuous, isn't it?
Exactly how is it a vaule judgement and what, exactly did you expect me to support this assertion with on a comments section? A fully annotated essay? The instrumnetal roles that Thatcher and Reagan (Conservatives) played in helping to deregulate the banking sector and to privatise everything the could would suggest that Conservatives do function to further the interests of the powerful. The continued assualt on the economy by the current Conservative government with a budget that provided tax favours for the very wealthiest and took the support from the most vulnerable (children (Sure Start) and the disabled(ludicrous and dehumanising tests) in particular) would suggest that Conservatives seek to make life harder for those with less. The fact that the Conservative government has overseen the sell off of the NHS indicates that Conservatives put profit before people.
That wasn't an ad hominen attack. It was a reasoned assumption. If you have difficulty understanding that the Conservatives operate in this way then you aren't grasping the bigger picture.
Their avowed credo may be individual liberty-though that would describe liberalism more accurately- but their real world actions maintain the position of the wealthy. Even if you accept that their credo is individual liberty you have to cede the point that that is a problematic notion when in put into practice in the real world. If we all were equal to start with then the notion of indivdual libertry as you put it would be fine. Of course we're not and those who start at an adavantage stay at an advantage. Conservatism as it functions in the real world serves to compound this and tip power ever upwards.
I actually agree that charactising people as lower than vermin is counter productive but I also find it difficult to find a single redeeming fucntion of real world conservatism. A lot of people feel that way about them -not through blind hate but through a reasoned understanding of what it is they have done and continue to do in the name of a dangerous and unwieldly ideology.
Also, speak for yourself when it comes to 'great minds' you're coming off like an over enthusiastic sixth former who has got the opportunity to use some of the terms they've just learned at the debating society.
"what, exactly did you expect me to support this assertion with on a comments section? A fully annotated essay? "
Of course not. But it wasn't necessary. You stated the *underlying principles* for all tories were greed and maintaining the position of the wealthy. If you'd said "the general effect of conservative policies has been to enrich the greedy and maintain &c" I'd have ceded the point. What I'm attacking is your assertion that tories start from the position "I am greedy and wish to consolidate the wealth of the rich" and then go on from there to form policy.
"That wasn't an ad hominen attack. It was a reasoned assumption. "
Perhaps I'm oversensitive. I read "If you can't understand that, then you must be stupid". Given that I understood perfectly, but disagreed with, your assertion, that read like an ad hominem attack. Sorry if it was meant otherwise.
"Their avowed credo may be individual liberty-though that would describe liberalism more accurately"
Disagree slightly. I would say "liberatarianism" (possibly with a footnote highlighting the differences in American and British understandings of that term...). Liberalism, I would posit, is slightly different. Again, that's one for elsewhere. Nevertheless:
"you have to cede the point that that is a problematic notion when in put into practice in the real world"
Of course I do. Who wouldn't? Again, I return to my central point, which isn't that these things are necessarily always right, or always well executed, or aren't open to debate, but - and this really is what I'm trying to get across - that saying that people who disagree with you are scum does not suggest you're happy to have that debate.
"Also, speak for yourself when it comes to 'great minds'"
Fine. You are Isaiah Berlin, Bertrand Russell and John Rawls all rolled into one big ball of humility.
" you're coming off like an over enthusiastic sixth former who has got the opportunity to use some of the terms they've just learned at the debating society. "
What, because I like to use whole sentences and the odd rhetorical term? What was that about petty insults you posted before?
I think one of us is taking this slightly more seriosuly than the other-look at the name I'm commenting under. But I'll address the points you make in the time I have as you have been courteous enough to do so with me despite the fact I've been a little more contrary than I usually am.
What I said was 'Conservatism is based on pirnciples of greed and favours tipping the balance of power further towards those who already have it.' I'll admit it wasn't articualted as fully as it should be and my subsequent argument has indicated that the way you have phrased it better serves to describe what I was getting at. I did not mean that Conservatives work from a position wherein it is accepted that they are greedy and wish to consildate the wealth of the rich but rather, that their behaviour serves to do just that. Of course, a poorly formed sentence or two is likely to occur when you are writing a comment on the hop.
I have to say 'fair enough' to the Liberal/libertarianism thing. I agree it's a point to be discussed elsewhere and detracts from the thrust of the argument.
Again, I agree on the point that saying people are scum doesn't help matters at all. What I will say for it, is that it has allowed us to exchange some ideas on the concept of Conservatism. Neither of us are for it it would seem-that much we can agree on.
I'd hope you'd take the dig with a pinch of salt but, I'll apologise if I've offended you. It's good to see someone on here who can articualte their views so well. I think addressing incohate, out and out racists too often on the NS message baords has made my standards slip.
But he's not complaining that people are rude about his poshness.
He's complaining that when he says he only gets posh roles and never gets non-posh roles he gets accused of whinging.
"You've got this great and well-paid career where you play posh types for years to come, in an industry where most actors are unemployed, and all you can do is moan".
The issue isn't about poshness it's about successful actors wanting it all.
It could just as easily be:
Keira "I only ever get to play beautiful, troubled heroines" Knightley.
''Glosswitch is a feminist mother of two who works in publishing.''
What an odd description?