Return to: Home | World Affairs | Europe

294 comments from readers

PlanetStarbucks
30 April 2008 at 14:45

While this case is horrific it does strike me as a story for middle class consumption allowing the feelings of horror and despair associated with this case to enter their own emotionally vacant lives. As a female member of my family suffered domestic abuse whilst I was young I have never understood the fascination with such cases. The reality of such events is too much for me to relate to as many seem to enjoy doing. I can only assume (an assumption that has grown stronger over the years) that the relative calm and safety of middle class life leads to a fetishism developing with the dark underbelly of society. This can be seen in any woman’s weekly at supermarket checkouts that deal exclusively with surreal stories of horror to the newspapers that revel in the degradation of human life in various conflict zones. Just as Natasha Kampusch was forgotten about as her horror story became complete, it will not be long until the horrors of Elizabeth Fritzl will fade in memory as people seek a new tale to sate their fetishism.

georgii
30 April 2008 at 14:59

i think what this man is horific and he has ruined so many lives with his actions. he descusts me

Jane Greene
30 April 2008 at 15:03

Planet Starbucks I think you are right about the rubber necking aspect of human nature but nevertheless I think it's important to think about the capacity of people to be cruel to each other. This is a truly horrific story - beyond the imagination of most of us thankfully - but at least this article is looking at the recovery process and in an insightful way.

PlanetStarbucks
30 April 2008 at 15:15

@Jane Greene,

Your right, this is the dilemma. We need to know about these horrors but for a good majority of people (in my opinion) this story will serve no other purpose than to sate their fascination with the perverse. So we are left with this problem of having to know about these events but these events then become symbolic and take on whatever meaning we want. Already commentators have blasted Austrian decadence and individualism for allowing such an event to occur. As one commentator responded, we have Fred West to contend with if we use this argument.

This horror is just that: an unspeakable horror that thankfully is nothing more than a story to everybody but those involved. Perhaps we would be wise to focus on our own lives instead of the lives of others; I suspect many of those who could have discovered this horror were too busy finding fetish in other dark tales to see the one around them.

Jelani14
30 April 2008 at 15:52

this guy is really sick! He is over the top man. Why would in the heck would he do that to his own daughter. What kind of stuff is that. He should be in jail for Life.

Jelani14
30 April 2008 at 15:57

This is the most sickest person ever. Rapping your on child like that. Why would he do that to his on child and grandchildren. This is very horrible. And I hope he never sees his grandchildren again. And fifteen years. You people in the state have lost your minds. This is crazy and over the top.

margot.codrington
30 April 2008 at 21:52

Planet Starbucks, I cannot understand why you think middle-class lives are emotionally vacant, calm or safe. Poor Elisabeth Fritzl could probably be described as middle class; but the darkness and violence and horror that can be contained within a so-called 'normal' family is what fascinates and appals people so much in this story. Home is supposed to be a safe place; but the 'fear' of a home that is not a home, or not a shelter as it should be, I would suggest has an archetypal resonance within human psyches: think of the dark fairytales of Grimm (written not so far from the place where this terrible act was perpetrated, ironically). Think Hansel and Gretel and Little Red Riding Hood (a wolf posing as a grandmother) and so on and so on. I think it is frankly mistaken, though, by implication, to suggest that these things only go on in working class homes, or that somehow, if bombs are not dropping on you, you must be perfectly happy. Human psychology is a little more complicated than that.

Supporter
01 May 2008 at 05:03

hi

Sunday
01 May 2008 at 08:25

Dear PlanetStarbucks - I agree with aspects of your comments but also support margot.codrington in her suggestion of an archetypal nerve that has been struck here. While your suggestion that the middle-class are bereft of suffering is preposterous, this story has shocked us into taking notice, as only through 'keeping to ourselves' as you advocate was Elisabeth offered no hope of freedom. While I don't for a moment support a ghoulish fascination with other people's suffering, I do believe there is a symbolism in that which is trapped and denied below the surface, that strikes a chord to the collective.

PlanetStarbucks
01 May 2008 at 09:41

@margot.codrington & Sunday,

I think you have misunderstood me. I do not claim anything about what Elizabeth has gone through only about the media representation to the rest of the world. My only claim is that this provides a perverse fetish for many whose lives are monotonous and safe. I never claimed that this could only happen in a working class home (especially seeing at it is fairly clear the Fritzl family was middle class), these sorts of atrocity can happen in any socioeconomic sphere.

While one can argue it strikes a chord with the collective, I ask you in that case why every rape, senseless murder and bombing does not provoke a similar outrage. This horror is fantastical in its construction; we fantasize on its story-like properties. Yet with something as close to home as rape we ignore it, deny its existence to some extent and try to imagine it can not happen to us. Why deny this aspect of life while showing such fetish for such an atrocious but unique event? This case is clear cut; the girl was innocent and her father a monster. Other cases do not show such moral clarity and therefore cannot provoke the same visceral reaction. In our world of moral absolutism we need stories like this to remind us that we are good and they are evil. This story gives the reader the moral superiority that they seek, that they are not the monster and thankfully not the victim. The victim part also raises moral superiority as in the same way that the victim often feels guilty for letting this happen to them many people also see the victim as someone that could not be them. This is because we all believe in these situations we’d escape, do anything to break free when outside of the realms of Hollywood there is often nothing anyone can do. However to believe this is to damage the ego therefore the victim is portrayed at least on a subconscious level as guilty herself in the eyes of others.

antileft
01 May 2008 at 15:25

"While this case is horrific it does strike me as a story for middle class consumption allowing the feelings of horror and despair associated with this case to enter their own emotionally vacant lives."

What classist, stereotyping crap. Only a real brainless idiot could have such issues with such a huge and diverse chunk of the population.

PlanetStarbucks
01 May 2008 at 16:43

Antileft do you ever actually try to refute arguements based on rationale and logic or can you only manage ad hominem and straw man counters?

margot.codrington
01 May 2008 at 20:37

I'm sorry PlanetStarbucks but you're having a laugh with your clumsy use of the English language and cod psychology - ad hominem and straw man counters indeed! Now I know you can't be serious. And if you are: well I'm afraid your arguments are neither rational or logical. At least antileft says it as it is. I commend him/her.

kim52
01 May 2008 at 21:56

OK people, these kind of men exsist, professional angelic men, who care for their children while raping them mentally and physically. I lived it-----control, beatings, rape, marching children soliders...... 1968-1973 Decatur, Illinois catholic school kids, management capipillar dad, loads of torment and rape!!!! They exsist.

Sweetstart
02 May 2008 at 00:58

PlanetStarbucks

I understand your comments about the fetish fascination the expectators might have with this story, but you also stated that you were a victim of abuse, maybe there is some sort of remorse from your part, over the fact that your history didnt make it to the public, therefore nobody new about your suffering.

Sunday
02 May 2008 at 01:17

Dear PlanetStarbucks,

Thank you for clarifying your position. I admit, I have been gripped by this story & whether or not my life is safe and vacant I have been self scrutinizing as to why the Fritzl story has demanded so much of my attention. I can relate to your ideas of moral polarity/ good and evil that exist in the human experience and how these elements are harshly illuminated in cases such as these. Moreso, I have an empathy (as I'm sure we all share), perhaps it is because I am the same age as Elisabeth and can't stop thinking about the life that I have lead since I was 18 and just how much of a life that has been robbed from her. I marvel at her will to survive as I can assure you I would have found a way to kill myself if I was her. But most of all there is the horrific reality that no matter what evil this woman was subjected to, that it was happening right below the lives of seemingly 'normal' family life. I wish I didn't know about it, but there is also some guilt in that wish as it is the 'not wanting to know' about such horrors that has somehow contributed to a crime like this being able to continue. It begs for consciousness. It asks that we shine the light on the unthinkable, and while I agree that the media feeds off fantastical stories, there is somehow something different about this one. I am still not clear, just very upset by this extreme example of helplessness and domination. I really don't understand why I am so affected. I am not wanting to minimize the experiences of anyone who has suffered at the hand of an abusive, more powerful person, but there is something so chilling about the extent of time, the extent of incarceration and the extent to which this man abused without question.

Rithvi
02 May 2008 at 06:50

PlanetStarbucks is the example of what the author is talking about. Someone abused herself sexually tends to expect everyone else to behave that way. This woman has forgotten the concept of human empathy. Not all of us are cruel and perverse. We all feel the pain and are disgusted and angry with what the suffering this woman had to go through. To suggest some sort of morbid curiosity is very offensive to us. One does not need to be sexually abused to understand suffering.

Rithvi
02 May 2008 at 06:54

This is why you Europeans are wrong about the death penalty. This man must be hung until dead, or in Utah executed by the firing squad.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 10:22

@Rithvi, Sweetstart

Let me clarify that I am speaking about a female relation and not myself in regards to the domestic abuse I mention in my first post. I grew up seeing the bruises, the police and the constant phone calls from her to other family members. This has not affected me as such in the fact that I do not feel any visceral emotion due to this as I was young and only an observer. What it did do for me is put a lot of life into perspective from a young age. I do not claim at any point that someone must suffer to understand other suffering but I do contend that the majority of people I know who have led relatively opulent lives do relish stories like this as if they give their own lives inherent meaning.

@Sunday,

Thank you for your response. I can understand your own fascination with the case if you can relate to Elizabeth and it sounds like you have at least thought about why you find fascination with this case. This fascination in your case is analogous to that of the fascination with the Holocaust, specifically the fact that concentration camps are tourist hotspots in the modern era. People visit the camps and speak about the Holocaust as if they were actually there; this aberration of reality is what sickens me. Conversely, if we got rid of the camps and left it to history are we not denying the dark underside of humanity? This problem is irresolvable so we are left with a situation where we must recognise what has happened but by doing so many people find fetish in it. It is only by trying to understand our reasoning behind such emotional responses that we can hope to understand humanity and ourselves.

@margot.codrington

A good piece of ad hominem there. As I said to antileft if you cannot deconstruct my argument and refute its claims then you have nothing to say, unless you’d like to make an original point?

caledonia
02 May 2008 at 13:59

PlanetStarbucks- Whilst i agree with the points you are making i do the think the underlying suggestion that all people expressing any kind of interest or curiosity in this type of case are ghouls is offensive.

I come from a back ground of parental abuse (although i was not abused to the extent of my older siblings as the authorities had stepped in) and i find

myself drawn to read and learn about these types of cases (especially involving parents) as a way to try

to understand human nature at it's very worst.

I often wonder if these people are damaged by their own experiences or a more bitter pill to swallow are they just the abhorrent monsters they are by birth.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 15:12

@antileft

No, the middle class by definition isn't as diverse as "white". The middle class is defined by fairly clear socioeconomic parameters and although these parameters have become more porous with the dissolution of domestic heavy industry and the rise in class mobility there is still a core of middle class traits that one can identify. High disposable income, well educated (often privately educated or having been subject to tuition), usually a stable family background (this is meant in no irony considering the case); these are all good markers for identifying the middle class and ‘middle class values’.

You also seem unable to put together any rational argument without resorting to ad hominem, or do you expect writing *sigh* in your reply is somehow going to persuade people that my arguments are invalid because you added a derogatory and superfluous commentary?

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 15:14

Well that comment makes no sense now that the memory hole has been opened...

Tracy
02 May 2008 at 15:19

Never in my life have posts such as PlanetStarbucks incensed me.

1- The man was a sociopath. We are not drawn to the story because we find intrest in HIM, rather we are feeling disgust and hatred toward him.

2- The facination is that it's amazing how low we humans can go, how horrible we can treat our fellow man.

3- If eveyone "focused on our own lives" as you suggested, Elisabeth would still be in the dungeon.

Finally, rather than address your "argument" (or it is your "opinoin" as you stated) your megalomaniac (grandiose dlusion) tendencies are prevalent in practicly every word of your posts. You do your best to belittle the human race, middle class, and women in general.

For goodness sakes man, this is a horrific newstory. I will read it, feel anger toward him, pity and passion for her (and the children), use the information to in some way improve my humanity, and i will get on with my life. Just as I would had the article been about my Stocks rising of falling. It is news of our world, not my fetish.

I would suggest to anyone wishing to comment on PlanetStarbucks to not feed into it. Comment only about the story at hand, not about this person wishing to make themselves feel superior.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 15:31

My word, you did mean that middle class people have "emotionally vacant lives"!!! Well, that's some stereotyping there! It's like calling working class people "bitter". But then, at least obama apologised.

So, to clarify, people with "High disposable income, well educated (often privately educated or having been subject to tuition), usually a stable family background"

have emotionally vacant lives?! It seems strange, because I wouldve thought it was the opposite. Surely, those things would bring very nice lives, wouldnt they??

What a lovely piece of stereotyping. Here's a question for you. How would you describe the emotional lives of working class people? Are they more emotionally satisfying? And if so, why would that be?

Homo Sapiens
02 May 2008 at 15:53

Rithvi -

I disagree completely with your comments about the death penalty. Apart fromall the many reasons which would be off topic here, consider the likely effect on the victim in this case, if she became the unwilling cause of the death of her father, and the only human contact she had had for her entire adult life.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 15:56

@Tracey,

1. We hate this man for what he is, but by doing so we take away his humanity. By denying him his very essence we destroy our reason for hating him in the first place. You look at this man and show complete hatred towards him (and it seems now by proxy me). By dehumanising this man’s crimes we make excuses for the human condition that let this happen. Or perhaps you care to contend that he is biologically different from everyone else?

2. A fascination that does not occur for those who have been through the suffering. How many war veterans do you see who revel in stories of soldiers being killed and of the general horror of war? Virtually none. Their experience of the horrors of war mean they do not wish to see the gory details shown fit for consumption. Why then do you require the knowledge of the horrors in this Austrian cellar?

3. Perhaps you need to get your facts straight. Elizabeth was released by her father, who I assume knew the game was up.

Can you give me some basis for my grand delusions? If you could also inform me of how knowing about this case changes your view on the world in any tangible way I would much appreciate it. You sound very much like the stereotypical middle class mother who ostentatiously votes Labour but sends your children to public school. If you are so outraged at the true common injustices in society then campaign for women’s rights in your area; raise money for beaten or raped women. These are the crimes that happen every minute of every day. What happened to Elizabeth is irreprehensible. By focusing on her plight though we disassociate ourselves with the true crimes that happen all around us. Let me ask you this. If we lived in a world where everyone knew their neighbour and we looked after beaten and raped women, even worked positively to prevent it in the first place, would this atrocity have been more or less likely to occur?

@antileft,

No, I would say the lives of working class people are to some extent depressing as the struggle to survive and lead a half-decent life takes precedent over deciding how to spend your money. At least the working class still has a sense of community though. There can be a certain pride in being at the bottom of the pile with no realistic way out; at least every struggle is genuine.

Let's juxtapose this with the middle class life. I assume your middle class antileft so can you explain to me what hardship you have suffered in your life? It is this lack of hardship, this existence without existing, that I believe leads to the macabre fascination with events such as this.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:05

"There can be a certain pride in being at the bottom of the pile with no realistic way out; at least every struggle is genuine.

Let's juxtapose this with the middle class life. I assume your middle class antileft so can you explain to me what hardship you have suffered in your life? It is this lack of hardship, this existence without existing, that I believe leads to the macabre fascination with events such as this"

Oooh I see. So, theyre a real nobel socio-economic grouping, then, the working classes eh? And of course, as a member of the working class, youre also, conveniently, better than me according to your formula.

Well, what hardships have I suffered... I suppose youre right, my life is pretty peachy. I spend most of my time travelling in hot countries with the girlfriend, paying for it by working online (I can do that with my wonderful education that you talked about). Living in cheap countries, Ill soon be able to buy a house straight out without a mortguage, which I plan to fill with, ahem, your socio-economic group. Going to thailand soon. We plan to spend a good 6 months on beaches, taking it easy. I might even learn how to play the bongos. I suppose that makes me emotionally vacant, and as a sad little poorper living in England, I suppose that makes you nobel... But then, I know which Id prefer.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:11

@antileft,

Ad homenium.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:12

@antileft

My apologies. Ad hominem. I wouldn't want to offend you with my poor spelling.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:17

One second- you asked me about which class I was from, and if Ive suffered hardships! You cant accuse me of ad hominem arguments when I then tell you about my class and lack of hardships! Oh planet starbucks, not the brightest, are ya? I wonder if that also fits into your working class stereotype.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:29

"... and as a sad little poorper living in England, I suppose that makes you nobel... ."

"Oh planet starbucks, not the brightest, are ya? I wonder if that also fits into your working class stereotype."

Ad hominem.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:35

that's it, keep using that new phrase you learnt. It's great to practice it, isnt it? It makes you sound like your educated middle class stereotype. Let me add one, one sec, I bet I can find it... Yes here we go.

"You sound very much like the stereotypical middle class mother who ostentatiously votes Labour but sends your children to public school."

Ad hominem.

Here's another useful word to use next time you want to sound big and clever:

Hypocrite.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:40

@antileft,

Now you've brought Tu quoque into play. Poor example of my own purported Ad hominem by the way, I make clear that in my opinion she was following a stereotype. This is markedly different from calling myself a sad little poorper (sic).

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 16:44

@antileft,

I would also suggest that your penchant for writing running commentaries is worrying as it suggests that you perceive yourself as some grandeur entity that must write down every nuance of thought as to allow admiration of its brilliance.

Passer By
02 May 2008 at 16:49

PlanetStarbucks, aren't you yourself fascinated with the case and in a way are exploiting it as an "illustration" to your pompous point about "middle-class (?) psychology"? Just 'cause you have witnessed domestic abuse doesn't make you an expert of how people should and should not react to such incidents. Moreover, you can't read people's minds, what makes you so damn sure they are merely "sating their fetish"?

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:54

No, it wasnt a poor example at all. Look at it again:

"You sound very much like the stereotypical middle class mother who ostentatiously votes Labour but sends your children to public school."

You got personal! Using "you sound like" or "youre following" instead of "you are" doesnt get you off the hook! This is a textbook example of ad hominem. You were caught out! Quit trying to be more clever than you are! Hypocrite.

antileft
02 May 2008 at 16:56

"I would also suggest that your penchant for writing running commentaries is worrying as it suggests that you perceive yourself as some grandeur entity that must write down every nuance of thought as to allow admiration of its brilliance."

ad hominem

hypocrite. x2. Youve posted far more than me. Hypocrite.

Sweetstart
02 May 2008 at 16:58

Personally, I avoid reading morbid sensationalist stories, which daily you will find in the internet or in the newspapers. If I had a fetish for other people’s darkness, like you said, I would buy the trashy magazines or spend a lot of time reading such stories. I don’t consider anyone who posted here to be like that either. There was another case similar to this one we are discussing that also took place in Austria in 2007.Where a woman kept her three daughters imprisoned for 7 years, without light and in a very confined area, it was revealed that the mother had a nervous breakdown which resulted in a serious mental illness. Why the Fritzl case disturbs us so much? Talking for my self only:

One-The fact that enough people lived around the dungeon and no one became aware of what was happening in the dungeon for 24 years!!

Two- The mother, in which planet did she live? It has been said that she and her husband didn’t have sexual relations for years, and yet, she didn’t consider suspicious the fact that her husband spent many nights in the dungeon? But even more serious then that, when they only had 4 kids he was arrested for raping another girl, and still, she gave him 3 more kids and adopted 3 others, her grandsons.

Three- Why after the first rape the guy was released from jail? Why didn’t the authorities flag him as a sex offender?

Four- If Elizabeth was missing and she had many other siblings, why none of them tried to look for her and find out more of her whereabouts?

The disturbing factor to me is HOW THE HECK NO ONE NOTICED ANYTHING?

How many times Elizabeth dreamed that her mother, brothers or somebody else would hear her screaming or banging. And I am not only talking about her ‘physical’ shrieks for help, I am also talking about her desperate soul trying to reach her mother or her siblings.

A lot of people should feel responsible for what was done to Elizabeth.

Passer By
02 May 2008 at 16:59

P.S. I also applaud your typically "proletarian" nickname here.

PlanetStarbucks
02 May 2008 at 17:04

@Passer By

I have never claimed to be an expert, I have merely said that my own experiences have left me wondering why something as atrocious as this case would fascinate so many people. My only conclusion can be that the middle class have so much comfort that they unconsciously seek fetish to give balance to their opulence. As this case is real, this could never happen in the world the middle class exist in, they find themselves fascinated with every macabre detail, every expose. The same can be shown through use of fetish over celebrity, sex, commodity, etc.

Your right, I have used this case to my own end of sorts, it is a perfect example of the fetish our society has for the macabre. If this sort of thing really upset society then social crimes would plummet overnight. Instead we lock ourselves in our homes watching the world through the lens of the media.

Tracy
02 May 2008 at 17:11

To PlanetStarbucks:

Sociopath/antisocial personality disorder means one who lacks respect for other people (your need to correct another’s personal opinion, as if yours is the only correct opinion or verbiage), humiliates other people (evident in your posts), is irritable and aggressive In short you delusional to believe that we reading the article are doing so to feed our sick fetishes. We are simply reading an article and a commentor who feels our comments are inferior and immature. We are SIMPLY COMMENTING ON A HORRIFIC INCIDENT.

1- Please reread my words verbatim, not what you believe my words to mean. I stated Quote: “1- The man was a sociopath. We are not drawn to the story because we find interest in HIM, rather we are feeling disgust and hatred toward him.” Where does that state I’m taking away his humanity? He is human, I despise his behavior and actions, not the fact that he is a man. You are an intelligent person, very persuasive, but your words don’t cause me to feel more animosity to Mr. Fritzl. I find it fascinating that you could read so much into my 25 word (or so) comment.

2- You brought up the fact that we are feeding a fetish, a fetish is a form of attraction (fascination), is it not? I don’t REQUIRE knowledge of the horrors in the cellar, I simply clicked on a headline that was news worthy, or are YOU minimizing the event as being not newsworthy, insignificant?

3-Again, keep this simple, read the statement I made “If everyone "focused on our own lives" as you suggested, Elisabeth would still be in the dungeon.” Did I state how she was freed? No. (example of your need to place yourself in the authoritarian position by correcting a remark that initially stated a simple fact, that she was no longer in the dungeon) I simply made the remark that so we would be more involved. If we all completely minded our own business, more of this would be going on. If the Dr minded his own business, he wouldn’t have pressed Elisabeth for information. Being someone's aquaintence is not obtrusive.

I’m sorry to burst your stereotypical attempt-at-demeaning-me-bubble. You couldn’t be more incorrect in your assumptions (oh no… that statement will for sure have your fingers flying on the keyboards @ me)...

I am a 40 year old American woman, married with two small children, who works a 40 hour week for a company subcontracted by the Kennedy Space Center in Florida. I don't know where I'm sending my kids to school, they're like war zones now-a-days. I have a well paying job and in my youth I was on my way to being a professional golfer (bet you didn’t see that coming). I am a political and ideological conservative. We have no need here to campaign for women’s rights, we have them. If I did raise money for beaten or raped women I would consider it to be a worthwhile use of my time.

You are so contradicting. You state, as if it were a slight at my personality, that I “raise money for beaten or raped women”. I agree that as you state “These are the crimes that happen every minute of every day. What happened to Elizabeth is irreprehensible.” I, Tracy, simply “focused” on her plight for about 5 minutes reading the story. I’ve focused more on your comments LOL).

I’m confused how “we disassociate ourselves with the true crimes that happen all around us.” within the 5 minutes that I read this story. You continue ”Let me ask you this. If we lived in a world where everyone knew their neighbour and we looked after beaten and raped women, even worked positively to prevent it in the first place, would this atrocity have been more or less likely to occur?” There is no yes/no answer. I could say “Why yes, that would help”, but then realistically aren’t we all too involved in our own lives to take the time to possibly impose upon another’s privacy? We all have secrets and are often manipulative. No one will ever know what goes on in the mind of a criminal/sicko.

Mr. Fritzl was a sick individual. No on will ever know what “might have been”…. Should-have, could-have, would-have-been. In fact, your sentence about us looking after beaten and raped women and positive prevention DOES happen today. If you’re not aware of that, I’m sorry for you.

Also… EVERY PERSON, middleclass or upper class, old and young, has had an event in their life that is heartbreaking and traumatic. The severity of ones heartbreak/travesties are relative to each individual. To assume person A’s experience is more traumatic to person B’s is pretentious (aka grandiose).

This is my last comment regarding “PlanetStarbucks”, my life is much more interesting than dealing with another’s attempts at belittling me and twisting my words so they fit his/her agenda. Although it has been somewhat stimulating!

@antileft:

My parents were “middle class”. We didn’t struggle to survive we didn’t have much, we had food on the table, roof over our head, car, new & clean clothes, etc. And, I’m grateful to have the experience. I’m more appreciative of what I have today. Also, how does PlanetStarbucks get off making the middle-class actually the lower class (“There can be a certain pride in being at the bottom of the pile with no realistic way out”)

antileft
02 May 2008 at 17:18

See, planet starbucks, theres a difference, isnt there? Youre trying to use long words youve picked up from a big book youre struggling to read in order to make yourself sound intelligent. Tracy, on the other hand, is just typing. And yet she out-debates you. Youre not only a hypocrite, but also a faker- go back to watching tv and drinking beer. Youre not bright enough to have a serious opinion.

Tracy
02 May 2008 at 17:19

PS... How did the story change my life? I see my children even more as a blessing now. We are such fragile creatures. We often hurt eachother without regard to the long term affects. My heart aches for what this woman and these children have missed out on. The lives they've led were/are incomprehensable. I pray for their healing. I pray that we DO get to know our neighbors more. I pray that we DON'T ignore those strange noises. I hope that I don't ASSUME that someone else will do something, let ME BE THE ONE! I hope I never assume that I am so much better than my fellow man that I feel I don't need to get to know them.

Passer By
02 May 2008 at 17:23

PlanetStarbucks, obviously, "i'm an expert" weren't your exact words, duh. Nevertheless, you rather deterministically got all the i"s dotted and all the t"s crossed on the matter of the "whys" and the "hows" of people's reaction to the case. Now, I ask you, what makes you so damn sure, these are the reasons and these are the thoughts of the people, who's emotional radar just happened to twitch even a tiny bit upon hearing of this horrific case?

Yes, indeed, your priority seems to be "society" and the "middle-class" -bashing and you are using this poor woman's ordeal to make your little point and to point your little finger one more time (as I am positive, this is not the firs time you are "letting it all out"). That's just LOW!

if you really cared and "couldn't relate" as you are claiming here, you wouldn't have used this disturbing incident so cheaply as a mere opportunity to push your precious little "opinion".

Hypocrite indeed.

Have a nice day.

Sweetstart
02 May 2008 at 20:18

Oh my God!! wasnt the idea of the posts to write about the case??... =)

Why?!?
02 May 2008 at 21:46

Well, this is just sad people! Reading this story has made you all turn on eachother. How does that make any sense?!? This is very childish!

luz
02 May 2008 at 22:35

s

luz
02 May 2008 at 22:45

I can't understand why all this anger against PlanetStarbucks, almost like there isn't an effort to understand what he/she's saying. It is rational and very clear. Not offensive. I can’t see no lacks of respect for other people… what I see is a group of people getting stronger against PlanetStarbucks because they are many against one and, therefore, they think they can.

JL
03 May 2008 at 12:52

I agree with PlanetStarbucks. The Middle Classes in particular seem to take peculiar interest in the perversity, misfortune and suffering of others. This is why petit bourgeois love to read the Daily Mail. These are people who do not have the moral and/or intellectual integrity to move beyond their own crass materialist conformity and content themselves with living vicariously through soap operas, magazines and degenerate celebrity culture.

There really is something very seriously wrong with the UK on both a moral and cultural level; it is, after all, the country that gave us the Wests and Harold Shipman (the latter being probably one of the greatest serial murderers of all time). The kind of Schadenfreude and fake sympathy that the terrible Fritzl case arouses is by no means confined to the middle strata of British society, but it is particularly hypocritical when it emanates from this segment of the population that sees itself somehow as the guardian of basic moral decency. Some of the feelings of sympathy and revulsion felt by British observers may in fact be genuine but it is so often accompanied by the sneering attitude that George Orwell identified as one of the salient features of anglo-saxon civilisation - we use these media events to deflect attention away from our own morally blighted lives.

jamief
03 May 2008 at 15:49

I am aware that this is the New Statesman and therefore can feel little surprise at the amount of intellectual posturing going on in this thread. I find myself in agreement with Tracy- let's comment on the story at hand, which after all is in response to an article entitled 'Helping Elisabeth Fritzl'

I would only wish to comment to express my own reaction to this newstory and not moralize on others' reasons for doing so.

I do think there is something quite unique about the events uncovered in Amstetten this week. The circumstances surrounding Elisabeth's and her childrens captivity and abuse

are truly horrific, and while we should never forget that there are women and children everywhere suffering at the hands of abusers, and we should feel no less for them, there is something quite unparalleled in Elisabeth's experience; not so much the abuse by her father over such a long period of time but more her prolonged incarceration in such a dark and terrible place, while this abuse was taking place.It is her experience, as a victim which is so unique and very hard to fathom, rather than outrage at / fascination with the crime and its perpetrator. it is this which has affected me personally, all the more so on hearing the accounts of how she has still managed to fulfill the role as mother to her children as best she could in such diabolical conditions.

She deserves our praise in equal measure to our pity and sympathy.

antileft
03 May 2008 at 16:01

"The Middle Classes in particular seem to take peculiar interest in the perversity, misfortune and suffering of others"

Wow, it's been quite interesting reading the above comments- we middle classes are barely even aware of the working class, and yet on the other side, you really hate us, dont you?! It really bugs you that we re richer, more successful, and have more enjoyable, luxurious lives, huh? I can tell there's a real, stinging jealousy here. Oh well. Id pity you, but, well, youre such a whining, miserable bunch of losers that it's hard to take you seriously.

life is tough
03 May 2008 at 18:29

Face it - sensationalism sells. When the story has been told, heard, disected and discussed and the papers made their margin, another torid, repulsive story will sell the papers. Middle class, upper crust, whoever......

JL
03 May 2008 at 20:52

antileft -

Not all criticisms of the Middle Class are the result of a Marxist proletarian mindset. Some emanate from within. According to the usual criteria of income and education I should be placed firmly amongst the Upper Middle Class. However, I have chosen to reject the mindnumbingly tedious conformity usually associated with people who bleat on about 'family values' and send their kids to fee-paying schools to avoid potentially contaminating contact with hoi polloi.

Flaubert defined the 'bourgeois' as 'ceux qui pensent bassement' (those who think basely); the epithet relates more to a reactionary mindset that privileges social respectability above authenticity than it does to any socio-economic status. Thankfully I am largely free of spite or jealousy and have managed to avoid dealing with the smallness of most aspects of British culture by leaving the UK.

As for the Fritzl case, the media was right to report this in the first instance, but as with all such events, the gutter press (and now also, unfortunately, formerly serious papers such as the Guardian and Telegraph) will use it to satisfy the bourgeois (yes, I used it again) public's lust for sensationalist disaster pornography that delights in the sufferings of others.

Bubbles
04 May 2008 at 04:52

It appears by the news reports that there people that knew Elizabeth was aware she was being abused by her own father but turned a blind eye. Also, there are a lot of things that werent right but did anyone intervene- No, they just seemed to ingnore it. It so appears that no one seem to want to come to Elizabeths aid and so the father knew he could get away with his unspeakable crime.

helenhill11111
04 May 2008 at 05:22

Planet S is clearly emotionally vacant. No other reason to throw that out there. So sad. get a life PS.

I am upper middle class and absolutely cannot read enough about this case. My reaction to the horror is complicated; I am human. Am I emotionally vacant? far from it. This is, for me, a complex and painful learning experience; i wish to be all the human i can be. I read the lives of the saints with as much obsession. I have spent far more hours on Gurdjieff, Meyer Baba, Amma, Goenka, Hume, Buddha. But it is all the same. I am not delighted, i am heading into the human storm with ful lcuriosity, conscience and integrity.

caramel
04 May 2008 at 08:29

I grew up in a middle class family. I've had some advantages as far as education and lifestyle go, sure. It's a rather ridiculous fallacy of hasty generalization, however, to insinuate that all middle class citizens must therefore have easier lives. My own has been polluted with physcial, verbal and emotional abuse from my father, an alcoholic brother who was addicted to heroin for over a decade, a sister who ran away from home to live with a severely psychotic and abusive boyfriend who wouldn't let us even see her for two years and who threatened to kill us all and would show up at my bus stop on my way to school periodically, and having to deal with my own emotional baggage of having to live in a household where all of these things were swept under the rug in order to save face in the community. My husband was also middle class. His father died last year and his mother is very ill and has been told she has about five years left. Do you really think that the pain that comes with these situations is less because of what "class" we're in?? I find it rather disgusting for anyone to tell me what I'm emotionally capable of, based solely on my family's income. I would have traded it in a second to have grown up feeling safe and loved.

I'm very sorry to have even wasted the time to comment on that, rather than the actual article, but I was getting so irritated. At first I was really interested in Starbucks' posts, but it quickly became clear that the mood behind them was just condescending and aggressive, rather than objective and thoughtful.

Personally, I read various news articles. I think it's good to know what's going on in the world. I've read the articles about the Fritzls more intently. Why? Because I care. I'm sorry if some people are too cynical to believe that (and I really AM sorry, it must be horrible to live under the assumption that all people are self-serving), but it's true. I'm aware that my tears aren't going to fix anything for these victims or any others. But people SHOULD cry when they hear of a story like this. They should be upset, and feel angry, and should pray for things to get better. When another person has been made to suffer unjustly, people should care. That's part of what makes us human, the ability to feel compassion. This family has suffered more than most would believe possible, and so that instinct to care is all the more powerful. Obviously people should take these feelings and put them to use by trying to improve the lives of those who are hurting around them, and I genuinely believe that some people will. No, I don't think that's naive. I guess it's my hope that when a situation like this one is made so public, it will inspire others to take those feelings of compassion and help those who need it. That it can serve as a wake-up call, so that maybe, even in as horrifying a situation as this one, some good might come from it.

Sunday
04 May 2008 at 09:51

People! Is anyone interested in actually helping Elisabeth and her kids? I'm talking about action rather than arguing. I don't have a lot of money but would be willing to set up a direct debit system for at least the next five years to offer some support. Is anyone else interested or do you just want to destroy each other with your intellects ad nauseum? Being able to spell better doesn't actually help Elisabeth. How about doing something constructive?

Jenz
04 May 2008 at 11:45

It is ironic that Starbucks epithet is that of the global giant that is compromising culture all over the world. And, you Poms - why are you so hung up on class. Get over it. There are plenty of middle class people who have less disposable income than the so-called "working class" - and plenty who DO NOT send their kids to private schools. And which "class" is the sensationalist gutter press aiming at for readership anyway.

The case is fascinating because it asks questions of our very humanity-n fact of what makes us human and what gives us the tenacity to hold on to some thread of sanity despite the most extreme of circumstances- it asks questions that are nothing whatsovere to do with what oart of society we reside in- but instead force us to look into our dark and atavistic soul- and yet at the same time.wonder at the extraordinary humanity of Elizabeth who, despite such experience of brutality, looked after her children with compassion and kindness. It is a case that shows us the quality of "humanness" at its two extremes- you would have to me made of stone not to be moved and intrigued- we are looking at ourselves here and grasping at the very edges of our comprehension for some thread of understanding. Of course we keep reading.

Jenz
04 May 2008 at 11:45

It is ironic that Starbucks epithet is that of the global giant that is compromising culture all over the world. And, you Poms - why are you so hung up on class. Get over it. There are plenty of middle class people who have less disposable income than the so-called "working class" - and plenty who DO NOT send their kids to private schools. And BTW which "class" is the sensationalist gutter press aiming at for readership anyway.

The case is fascinating because it asks questions of our very humanity-n fact of what makes us human and what gives us the tenacity to hold on to some thread of sanity despite the most extreme of circumstances- it asks questions that are nothing whatsovere to do with what oart of society we reside in- but instead force us to look into our dark and atavistic soul- and yet at the same time.wonder at the extraordinary humanity of Elizabeth who, despite such experience of brutality, looked after her children with compassion and kindness. It is a case that shows us the quality of "humanness" at its two extremes- you would have to me made of stone not to be moved and intrigued- we are looking at ourselves here and grasping at the very edges of our comprehension for some thread of understanding. Of course we keep reading.

tallnbeautiful
04 May 2008 at 13:39

How many of you were raised to "Respect Your Elders?" From the time you are born you are taught things from the person that is raising you. You are taught what is right and what is wrong, don't touch this or don't do that. You are also taught fear, quilt, blame, Trust, and Treats through out your life. You may have belonged to a certain church that also taught you quilt from "Man Made Laws" and that if you broke these laws you would go to hell. These are all things you have known from the time you are born. You don't just overcome them as an adult.

I think fear of a parent is the most horrible feeling to have as a child, or fear of an adult. How many people believe a child over an adult? Not many! I learned of a situation from my older sister years back when a man or so called friend was trying to sexually abuse her. My parents did not believe her and they "Made Her" be friends to this sickko..... Nobody believed her, not even the police. I had a lake house where I went every summer with my family. When you were a teenager around the lake, there was a place you could all go to and "Hang out." I met a boy through my cousin back when I was 12. We were friends for our whole life at the lake. Now I have children and he has children and he needs babysitters to care for his little ones. My girls are of age along with loads of other teenagers in the area....... Everyone knew him and liked him and trusted him. Which also lead to our children liking him and trusting him. Now, our children are baby sitting for his children and he comes home and he talks to them and gets to know them real well. Gets them to Trust him. Now he holds all this info and then he can use it for his advantage..... Years go by and he is arrested for child molestation. Then Rape comes out. My daughter being one that he raped over and over again. Hundreds of kids came forward to the DA but they would not go to court. My daughter and 3 others did go to court and it was awful! When I was handed 2 sheets of paper showing me what a "Petifile" is all about, I wanted to thorw up. All the implications were all there in black and white. These people are "experts" in their field. This man was an antrapanor, helped people in the community, helped his neighbor when in trouble and nobody knew of his other life. No-body knew he was rich either...... He thought he could get out of trouble with the court system, but it back fired when he came up against his old time friend! If he thought he knew somebody who he could fool, I knew somebody better!!!!! It took 3 years, but I won. He spent 12 years in prison.

I had many people say to me that this would never happen to their child because they taught them right from wrong. I was told by an undercover detective who delt in this crime that "People are Ignorant!" He told me this: "You do not know HOW you are going to deal with a situation until you are in that situation!" He was right. I felt like somebody sufficated me for years.

Now, when my husband read me this story about Elisabeth, I was "Sick to my stomach" over this case... I thought I was living a nightmare with my daughter, I was wrong. This was a nightmare.... I have had nightmares everynight over this which of course has brought out my own hell that I had to go through from years ago. I just want to know that she is going to be taken care of the rest of her life with tender loving care. My heart aches for her so badly I can't imagine have survived in that prison all those years. This monster should be put back in his own dungeon to live until he dies. Prison is too good for him....

caramel
04 May 2008 at 16:18

"Is anyone interested in actually helping Elisabeth and her kids? I'm talking about action rather than arguing."

Of course people are interested in helping her! I have yet to see any fundraisers online, but I did read that Natalie Kampusch (sp?) is intending to give them money from her own fund, so I don' t know if that means any donations to Natalie would reach the Fritzls. too. I've been keeping an eye out, though. I'll post if I see any news on the subject.

helenhill11111
04 May 2008 at 18:29

I would be happy to contribute also, I imagine a world-wide fund will be set up.

PlanetS, though sad and angry, brought up an interesting question: why am I obsessed? I've thought about it and decided to post this assessment.

-I cannot get her out of my mind, because I think she must be an extraordinary human being. To teach her children that heaven is "up there" that God is in the moon and stars, to guide them to make stars to put on the walls, to love them and keep herself and them alive in the face of the most horrific conditions a human has ever in my mind been forced to live: I believe she is a talisman, an angel, a force of goodness and hope unparalleled in any story I have ever heard in my entire life.

How did she raise those infants, and offer a life of hope to them as adolescents? What would it be like to only view the world through a television set, a brutal "father", a dark dungeon and the love of an extraordinary mother. I believe she must have a light within her that outshines the most horrific evil.

And she won in the end; she is free, and her children are going to see a world of wonder that she has prepared them for with a faith I cannot imagine.

She has expanded my belief in humanity in unimaginable ways, while the father has nearly completely eroded it.

PlanetS, do you still imagine that this bourgeouis fool is a pervert who enjoys the spectacle and is "delighted" by it? Can you begin to see what this might mean on so many levels to so many people?

silva
05 May 2008 at 01:43

Planet Starbucks,

I *am* a survivor of childhood sexual abuse. I take offence that you suggest the only reason people take interest in this story is to 'sate their fetishism'.

It's sad that you appear to have made this news item into something that's all about you and your ability to debate.

Your cynicism and drive to prove yourself intellectually and morally superior has clouded your ability to perceive the massive variation in the feeling states of a very large group of human beings reading this story.

When I read about Elisabeth Fritzl and her children, there is only one word that can describe my emotional state. And that's not 'intrigue' or 'sated': it's 'empathy'.

Sweetstart
05 May 2008 at 04:37

To critize the people who reads this "kind of news" is less valid, if it comes from a person who is actually reading the same news, as the people she/he critizes.

Plante, what makes YOU read about this case? what made you come to this page and comment?

Maggie
05 May 2008 at 13:39

The discussion above is very interesting and thought-provoking. I've been tormented by this woman's hideous story and cannot absorb the enormity of her suffering. That one can not only survive but find the human reserves to raise children in such horrible circumstances is worthy of our reflection. Once a fund is set up I will donate. Whilst I feel abhorrence for any rape or act of abuse, it's hard to compare these experiences with Elizabeth's misery. Can one person's misery be greater than another's? Not in real terms, I suppose, but I can only think that Elizabeth's dreadful life is as tragic as it gets. Initially, I simply couldn't comprehend what I was reading; how I find it difficult to comprehend that this woman still had sufficient wits about her after 24 years to insist her ailing daughter be given medical treatment. This betokens a mind still intact and still amazingly moral, loving and rational, against all the odds. She is clearly the antithesis of her tormentor. Can there be a more vivid contrast in human behaviour? I'm not a ghoul or sensationalist or voyeur, but I will follow this story in the hope that one day we read of this woman's recovery sufficient to allow her to live a happier life. But - like a Greek tragedy with the chorus outlining the eventual ruin of individuals - I fear for her future.

dorchester
05 May 2008 at 15:10

As important as it is to discuss what Elizabeth has lost and suffered, we should also acknowledge her bravery and resourcefulness. Articles refer to Josef Fritzl's cunning and planning but the true marvel is Elizabeth. She cared for children, gave birth by herself, while being abused and neglected for an impossible 24 years. Let's not dwell on her father's depravity but on her strength. Her country should care for her and value her and her children for the rest of their lives. They have endured more suffering than can be imagined and they must never be abandonned again. For every reference to her rape, there should be a commendation for her mothering and survival instincts. Let's not victimize her more. She is a hero.

dorchester
05 May 2008 at 15:15

Notartreuhandbank . This is the official fund set up for donations for Elizabeth Fritzl and her children.

fairplay
05 May 2008 at 19:13

antileft

were you bullied at school? did the rough boys from the council estate give you a hard time?

i won't use big words. just these:

u r a nob

PlanetStarbucks
05 May 2008 at 20:31

I seem to have provoked a general negative response with my posts, with the exception of a couple of commentators. As far as I can see there is no logical inconsistency with my arguments. I do find it quite funny that virtually every counter argument against me (bar antileft's accusation that I am unintelligent despite his failure to show why I am) revolves around this opinion that I am sad, angry and emotionally vacant and my opinions arise out of anger and have no basis.

This case is a sensationalised horror and little more. Horrors of this magnitude happen across the world but we spend little time thinking about them. I wonder if the same commentators whose lives have been touched by this event will now hardly be able to live given the horrors now facing the Burmese people. If not, then it is difficult to deny that the fascination boils down to fetish rather than suffering.

silva
06 May 2008 at 00:17

Planet Starbucks.

You forgot those arguments that boiled down to this:

Empathy.

If you find reading about this case fetishistic, then that's your experience. But speak for yourself. Don't assume to speak on behalf of a very diverse group of people, and don't assume that human beings are a homogenous group of people who experience everything in the same way.

Visit other message boards occasionally. You may find that people are equally abhorred by other human rights violations around the world - not just this one.

Would you prefer that they weren't?

Or do you think you're the only one who is?

PlanetStarbucks
06 May 2008 at 00:26

@silva,

Human beings are fundamentally simple creatures. Our emotional responses can be accurately predicted and controlled by use of psychoanalytic techniques and medicine if necessary. While people may experience things in different ways their base psychological reponses can still be modelled effectively. It is this notion that we are all somehow unique despite the overbearing weight of science and philosophy to show otherwise that leads you to this erroneous conclusion.

silva
06 May 2008 at 01:23

Planet Starbucks,

So you think that someone who has been sexually abused by somebody who is a heavy smoker and drinker will experience the same emotional responses to cigarette smoke and alcohol fumes as someone who hasn't?

You think that someone who has experienced abuse directly will have the same emotional response to a news item about abuse as someone who hasn't?

Certainly, human beings have more in common than we do that distinguish one from another.

But there's more complexity to it than your simplified conclusion.

Again, if you find reading about this case to be fetishistic, then that's your experience. Speak for yourself.

antileft
06 May 2008 at 07:09

haha planet starbucks, you make so much effort to sound more intelligent than you are! I bet you have your dictionary right there, dont ya?

"I do find it quite funny that virtually every counter argument against me (bar antileft's accusation that I am unintelligent despite his failure to show why I am) ..."

Actually, I think youll find that I did show it quite clearly. Here, let me show you again:

You said:

"I would also suggest that your penchant for writing running commentaries is worrying as it suggests that you perceive yourself as some grandeur entity that must write down every nuance of thought as to allow admiration of its brilliance."

You see the problems, starbucks?

1. It's completely hypocritical. As Ive said, youve posted far more than me.

2. This is a clear example of ad hominem which you keep criticizing me for. Again, youre being hypocritical. If you cant see the hypocrisy here, then youre clearly dumb as hell. Sorry!

helenhill11111
06 May 2008 at 07:41

starbuck and antileft: GET A ROOM

skylee
06 May 2008 at 08:23

My heart and thoughts are with Elizabeth and the children she gave birth to... I can only hope, that now she's free, life can move forward for her. Just lost for words, I hope to the universe the prisoners kill the sick sick man who did this to her, so much hatred felt towards this "father".. he cannot be considered a father, he is just sick...

PlanetStarbucks
06 May 2008 at 11:09

@antileft,

You cannot attack the arguments so you attack the man; this when juxtaposed with your soliloquies reveals much about your personality. Your own purported example of my own ad hominem is again poor. My statement explaining why your use of such soliloquies would suggest a psychoanalytic dysfunction was a rational comment which appeals to no base response. Making claims such that I have been avidly using a dictionary during this commentary is the latest in a long line of personal attacks you have disseminated in an attempt to portray my comments as unintelligent, vacuous and hidden behind a smokescreen of terms you think I have no understanding of. Please attack my arguments and not my class, intelligence, or any other irrelevant factor that has no bearing on the actual substance of my arguments. If I am as unintelligent as you portray, this should be easy.

@silva,

As I stated our base psychological responses are still the same, experiences invoke visceral reactions. If you hear a song that reminds you of your first love your body may be flushed with endorphins while a person sat next to you may have no significant emotional response. Does this subject experience mean we cannot model the reason for this response?

Psychoanalytic theory can accurately model population groups as any person who works in advertising will tell you.

antileft
06 May 2008 at 11:39

Oh dear starbucks- what hypocrisy! You must be thick as a brick to not be able to see it!

"You cannot attack the arguments so you attack the man; this when juxtaposed with your soliloquies reveals much about your personality."

Cant you see the hypocrisy here?! Isnt it obvious?! You say that Im attacking you, and then attack my personality! Ad hominem!

antileft
06 May 2008 at 11:53

What kind of an insecure show-off uses words like soliloquies, ad hominem, and Tu quoque anyway?! Youre so blatantly desperately trying to impress us starbucks, it's really quite pathetic.

PlanetStarbucks
06 May 2008 at 12:44

From philosophypages.com,

"ad hominem argument (argument against the person)

The informal fallacy of supposing that a proposition should be denied because of some disqualifying feature of the person who affirms it".

You claim that my propositions are invalid due to features you claim (erroneously) I have that have no relevance to this argument. I on the other hand am questioning your motives for attack and suggesting that your attacks have no depth, therefore I can only conclude that your reasons for arguing are purely egotistical. My arguments about people’s reaction to Elizabeth Fritzl are based in psychoanalytic theory and cultural philosophy. Your arguments are based around denigrating my standing.

As for anybody else who feels that I am attempting to use unnecessarily complicated language to explain my points then I apologise but there is little other way I can put my views across. Complex thoughts are only possible with complex language.

anotherblatherer
06 May 2008 at 14:09

I'm glad I don't have to listen to Starbucks or Antileft in a confined room. I hope neither of them are teachers. What happened to the discussion of the point? And, since when has it been fetishistic to be fascinated by a compelling story of human failing and tragedy? Everything has to do with how the story is told. Take your pick from any of the sources--as scandal, as drama, as tragedy; artfully, sloppily, sensationally, carefully...

antileft
06 May 2008 at 15:16

"Complex thoughts are only possible with complex language."

What a load of crap. No they arent!!! You can say very complicated things with very simple language! Unless youre a complete twit. Youre just trying to make yourself sound smarter than you are, because youre desperate to impress us for some reason.

"Your arguments are based around denigrating my standing."

But thats precisely the point! Hell, I didnt even finish reading the article- thats how uninterested I am in the topic! (I suppose that means Im not middle class, according to your moronic formula). It's you who's totally fascinated by this case (which I suppose somehow makes you an "emotionally vacant middle class"). I skipped straight to the comments, and was offended by your dumb belief that "middle class people are emotionally vacant"! Great "cultural philosophy" by the way- hardly intellectual, is it?

So yes, Im not debating your dull little points, Im insulting you because youre a classist idiot. Which is moronic. Your belief is that a group that repesents probably over a third of the country is "emotionally vacant" just because they belong to this group, which, as I said, happens to be one of the most diverse groups. This is why youre dumb as hell. And yes, it is as bad as saying "black people are..." because black british people are probably no more diverse than the also incredibly diverse middle class british people. In another life, youd be a racist.

JackieK
06 May 2008 at 18:37

This story is very symbolic. It is the knowledge of incest in our community emerging from the cellar. It is the knowledge of it going on and happening all around us emerging from the denial of our minds.

Some where out there
06 May 2008 at 20:01

I'd like to say people read these stories or become so focused on them because they are so unbelieveable and don't seem real.. It is hard to imagine something so horrific can happen within human society. It's like the victims them self try to imagine what it might be like above ground (heaven). I think people should be reading these stories and visting those site and think twice about there own lives and their surrounding communities. Why turn a blind eye to what has happened. I don't know how anyone can say people are reading this purely for fasination and that it is because of ones emotional vacant life. People have different reasons for reading stories like these. This horror act SHOULD NEVER EVER be forgotten. It should be a daily reminder that there are monsterous peoople out there and that there have been victims out there that have been abused unthinkably. It is still going on as we speak and as a society we should be ashamed to allow it to happen. Those who are not reading are going on with their daily lives as if it never happened and that's an injustice to all victims of any abuse. My heart goes out to Elizabeth and here family and i hope within time they are able to live a some what normal life.

Sunday
06 May 2008 at 23:34

Thank you dorchester for the tip on how to make a donation.

While I am not alone in being incredibly disturbed by this case, I have also been disturbed by the level to which I am gripped by it. I have never believed you can compare suffering, or accept that some forms of abuse are worse than others.

I think the shocking difference here though is that Elisabeth's abuse took place in the realm of non-existence. That to successfully relegate a person to 'not exist' ensures that the only hope the victim has for an end to abuse, lies in the hands of the perpetrator.

It is true that rape and incest occur all the time and that none can be judged as worse than another. But most of the time these crimes occur in the realm of existence. To be de-humanized to the dungeons of non-existence where even fresh air and day light are forbidden, where you are locked behind concrete doors, where your screams can never be heard, where the ONLY other human you see is the perpetrator, where there is NO CHANCE of calling a help-line, telling your story to ANYONE, no teachers, no passer's by, no family......it is this aspect that makes the abuse worse, the worst, how can it get any worse?

Strawberry
07 May 2008 at 08:26

When i read blaring headlines such as "Fritzl may have raped granddaughter" I can sympathise with the complaint raised by PlanetStarbucks. Although, I think the important things about this case are those that are ordinary and "boring". That long road ahead tthat we hope will lead to recovery and some sort of quality of life, taken with small steps over a long time by Elizabeth and the children.

I don't know about a class battle, in all this, I see a collective feeling of powerlessness in response to the all consuming power Fritzl exercised over his world. Apart from the dog who kept running to the door compulsively, knowing all was not well behind it - no other being questioned him.

Our feelings of powerlessness come out in different ways. I've seen it manifested mainly in a desire for revenge for Fritzl. Hang him. Prison is too good for him. Deprive him of food, drink and air for the rest of his life. His real punishment is far more mundane and it's already happening. He's simply going to be disallowed to act on his vile, base instincts that harm others for the rest of his life. I imagine for someone used to being in a position of extreme power over others to have the tables suddenly reversed might be intolerable.

I've related to some of the simple human responses I've read such as someone who said they would love to give Elizabeth a make over! Perhaps the way we become an authentic person is by doing something personal for someone else. In the absence of being able to help directly donations are a great idea.

JackieK
07 May 2008 at 09:31

Only a sick person can find any fetish in this horrific story that most people want to know about because they care about what has happened to people in the world. Only a sociopat can find it incomprehensible that there is no other reason but fetish behind an interest in this case, because the ability for empathy does not exist in his brain, it is beyond his comprehension.

Westcoaster
07 May 2008 at 22:54

Sunday

My heart goes out to you as your state of mind echoes closely my own. I am not prone to becoming personally involved in media stories yet I found myself deeply moved by this one. Perhaps because I too am Elisabeth's age and think about all that has passed in 24 years. Perhaps it is because there are so many archetypes inherent in this story it touches something subconscious in all of us. Personally I have not been myself since I first heard the story. I find myself delving for information, wanting to find out more. But I don't feel a voyeur. Something inside me is searching for a way to help or understand. Starbucks you may interpret this as you will.. You may refer to it as "fetishism" (although last I checked fetishism refers to the deification of or obsession with objects not people) or "middle class" ( I don't get that at all). Like the holocaust or 9/11 the enormity of what happened is so overwhelming that it brings out strong emotions. To deny these would be inhuman. My only fear is that I am helping fuel the media blitz which will not serve the family well. I pray that somehow they will survive the attention that has been thrown on them. The fact this story is still developing only makes it harder to look away...

Sunday
08 May 2008 at 00:24

Thanks Westcoaster - I agree with you about the media. The more financially enabled the family are, the more power they will have against the media beast, although I'm sure 'The Diary of Elisabeth Fritzl' is already outlined by some two buck biographer, not to mention the lengths the cloying media will go to for an exclusive interview. Having said that, I would sadly read the book and tune into 60 minutes that night along with the rest of the world. This is the bind. I don't have strong feelings towards Joseph Fritzl. In the world he had constructed his unimaginable and unopposed actions were justified and made perfect sense. I can almost enter into his thoughts, which I find even more disturbing.

After the initial shock of becoming aware of Elisabeth's experience, my most authentic and unmediated response was a voice that said 'I am never going to complain about my life again.' I felt a sudden connection with a gratitude for all that I have access to that is good and pure in the world and a flash of knowing that inside all of us there is something that keeps us locked away from that.

While I have been feeling isolated and disturbed for the past week or so, I have also found myself deeply immersed in life, like a child seeing the world for the first time, spellbound by autumn leaves, marveling at the ease to which I can switch on a heater, open a window, that my son can kiss me good bye and walk to school, that my cat is free to leave but chooses to stay. Maybe PStarabucks is right - that only through this evil am I able to mobilize my own notions of good - that in knowing so fully about what has been denied to Elisabeth I am able to access gratitude for what I have always had?

In any case, I am deeply humbled.

Robert Powell
08 May 2008 at 11:14

Well you don't sound very humble Sunday. This is an article about how the professionals go about helping someone who has been the victim of some very extreme abuse. So what do you do? Come online and talk about yourself - after getting over the terrible shock you've just suffered...

Were you directly affected by the death of Princess Diana too?

Robert Powell
08 May 2008 at 11:20

Oh and Westcoaster. You haven't been yourself? Oh dear. Isolated and disturbed. How will you ever recover from this experience. Perhaps someone at the New Statesman will commission something on narcissism.

PlanetStarbucks
08 May 2008 at 11:58

@Robert Powell,

I think you may have hit on a key term there: narcissism. Why do people feel so involved with this case? It could be a mixture of their own narcissistic tendencies leading them to involve themselves on a personal level; a tendency that arises from reducing this case to a fetish.

Marx spoke of commodity fetish; Freud used it in a psychoanalytical sense. People seem to be reducing this woman’s horror and her father’s evil into an easy-to-use fetish that they can then project their own narcissistic agenda onto. As I stated in an earlier post, if the horrors of Elizabeth and the cellar have drove your egos to such lengths, how do you now feel about the hundred thousand who have died in Burma?

Sunday
08 May 2008 at 14:01

Fuck off Robert Powell. This is a site which asks for comments and reflections on particular articles. Do you really think after 90 odd blog entries that the conversation wouldn't progress towards something .... human.

Robert Powell
08 May 2008 at 15:08

I know which is why I gave vent to mine about your egotistical rantings. Funny how your selfish, childish persona makes you lash out when criticised. A little secret, not everything is about you!

jamief
08 May 2008 at 15:17

@PlanetStarbucks

Your superior and condescending attitude towards the vast majority of the contributors here seems to know no bounds and I am tempted to agree with helenhill 1111's suggestion that you and antileft ' get a room'

"sensationalised horror and little more"

"horrors of this magnitude happen across the world"

I would argue that the bare facts of this story require little in the way of sensationalising , the horror speaks for itself and as I commented on 3 May there is a quite unique quality to the events that have been uncovered in Amstetten in the last 10 days or so, which does in my mind account for people's fascination with the case.

I would refute your 'fetish' argument on the basis that most people here including myself are not habitual tabloid/ national enquirer readers who scour the press looking for salacious headlines to indulge their ' narcissistic tendencies' , but have simply been affected by this story and above all else as I suggested in my previous comment, intensely moved by the humanity of Elisabeth F. in juxtaposition to the evil deeds done to her by her father.

Your throwing of Burma into the mix was so predictable, I was actually anticipating it. I am sure that

everyone here is deeply saddened by the mass suffering there caused by this natural disaster, but it is not the subject of this thread, and provokes very different feelings and thoughts to the ones being discussed here.

For one who stores so much in the 'logical consistency 'of their arguments perhaps you find yourself being forced to agree with Josef Fritzl when he argues that by incarcerating his daughter he was saving her from a lifetime of drug abuse- hard to argue with the logic there, eh?

Validity and logic..... simply put, isn't everything.

Gladys
08 May 2008 at 15:21

Reading through the comments has invoked a few moments of laughter, particularly the idiocy PlanetStarbucks has been spouting and the attempts to engage the asinine arguments given by that poster. Folks, if you stop addressing the person then that particular headache will vanish.

Concerning the death penalty thing from the poster from Utah... Life imprisonment, whether in a prison or in a cellar (hey, I LIKED that idea!), is far greater punishment in my mind than just quickly killing someone. Gives them more time to think. I don't believe it matters whether the guy is locked up in a prison or in a mental institution, either, for that matter. Just so he never gets out.

I am from the US so the class thing you all are arguing over is admittedly of no interest to me. What is of interest is the lack of coverage of this story in the States. Sure, when it first came out the media covered it. But there isn't a lot about it now, so I had to search the net for additional information. I find the lack of information in the US appalling and shows a lack of care for humanity by our media that frightens me as an American citizen. A lot of things frighten me about the US these days, but that is a different discussion.

I am a survivor of childhood abuse. I am not going into all that happened so don't ask. I will tell you it covered all gamuts. And we were poor and I was attending an upper middle class school so there was no area of safety for me as a child. I also have been raped and suffered other abuses as an adult. I know a bit about PTSD and other reactions to having been abused, having suffered from it and having been treated for it. I agree with a lot of what the expert who wrote this article said. However, I have a major gripe. It is that gripe that lead me to read the comments here and then post.

When she is talking about Elizabeth's final issue in dealing with the children she gave birth to from the rapes by her father, she says "some may also have been abused". I was like, 'what?!?!" Every one in that family has been abused. Those kids that were taken and lived with her parents have scars of whatever lies he told to cover up the absence of their mother. Whether he laid a a hand on them or not. Which is also highly likely. It boggles my mind that no one would think he would abuse anyone living upstairs. And now finding out what happened to their mother and their siblings, of which they had no idea existed, they will need help and counseling too. Everyone in that family is a victim of the dad's abuse. I feel for his wife and worry that she may not be able to handle the revelation and ramifications that her belief in him allowed her children and grandchildren to suffer such horrors. I hope they are providing all of the family the mental health support that is required. I do not believe Elizabeth and the children with her in the dungeon will ever be able to overcome what was done to them regardless the level of support and mental health care they receive, with the exception of the 5 year old. He is young enough that if her mothering was as good as is claimed, he may have a chance of a 'normal' life sometime in his future. Still he will carry the scars of this abuse and torture with him till the end of his days. It doesn't end for the victims upon release from the abuse, or even after years of treatment. People don't understand that.

Also, there is no comparing of abuse where one person's experience of abuse is 'worse' than another person's experience of abuse. All is horrific and all is soul rendering. So please do not use this example of profound human suffering at the hands of a psychopath to negate or make less your response of caring for those who were not locked in a cellar for 24 years.

Jane Greene
08 May 2008 at 15:22

Refute means disprove Jamief - you haven't refuted anything you've merely disagreed.

tazgill
08 May 2008 at 18:21

I am responding to the middle-class fetishism comment made at the top of the comment list. I am completely absorbed by this story and I wake up in the middle of the night worrying about Elisabeth and her children and wonder how and if her life will become even somewhat enjoyable after her horrors. I am not perversly attracted to the story by some fascination with the underbelly of our society. I am very saddened by the events I have read and hope and pray that she will be alright. I read many articles on this story and I hope to hear about her progress in therapy. I am sure I am naive to the issues she will face in the aftermath.

Westcoaster
08 May 2008 at 18:21

The fact that such a private story is being played out in the media is like the media itself: both good and bad. On the one hand it will financially enable Elisabeth and her family to live out the rest of their lives without worry about money. On the other hand I can't imagine what it would be like to have been isolated from the world for so long only to be thrust into it's brightest spotlight. Also as of today it seems obvious that Josef Fritzl wants to use the media to gain attention for himself (like all psychopaths), justify his actions and/or prepare his insanity case. I just wish he'd shut up already.

Gladys I have a question for you. I know little about chid abuse and the environment in which it exists. Do you think it is conceivable that the mother knew nothing before the girl disappeared? Somehow I'm not buying it. And the children that kept popping up on the doorstep?

Gladys
08 May 2008 at 19:18

Westcoaster...

First, I don't know if she knew or not. But, I believe it is possible that she was oblivious, that she trusted him fully, that he had worked on her during the marriage to get her to be docile and not ask any questions of him, that he had manipulated her, groomed her, etc. to believe anything he said. Abusers are very good at saying all the right things and manipulating the people around them so they do not suspect what is going on, and hiding their crimes.

It is not always true that the spouse doesn't know what is going on. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. But it can not be assumed that just because she was married to him and living in the same house that she knew what he was doing. After all, the police and social workers believed him, that his daughter had run away and joined a cult, and that she had dropped off the children to be taken care of because the cult didn't allow children. Why would his wife suspect anything else? As far as the incest starting at eleven... she may not have seen anything to cause her to question his actions toward the child. Unless she walked in on the rape, or saw him touching the child inappropriately, and most people might think an inappropriate touch was a hand landing wrong. He wouldn't have flaunted it. Easier by far to discount an odd moment than to think something like incest is happening, especially if the person is blinded by love or dependent for care as a spouse may be. It is often hard for a parent to believe a direct charge against someone they know made by a child. If there was no direct charge made against him it is possible she never saw the signs.

I am bothered, however, that he was charged with rape in the 60's and she stayed with him. I think that should have been her first clue to get out and take any kids she had with her.

Ablack
08 May 2008 at 22:49

I have, as so many other been taken in my this story. Some people may want to say it is my middle class status or my fascinatation with the less fortunate, which is completely insane. We are all human, that is the commom thread in this story. We are all sensitive to man's inhumanity towards man. I don't believe that I or anyone needs to be "labeled" because we have the capacity to care. I pray every night for this family and believe as others do that Elisabeth is an incredible woman and I pray that she will at some point in her life find peace.

Sunday
08 May 2008 at 23:52

Robert Powell - lashing out when criticized is a little healthier than your response - lashing out when not criticized. Your use of the word 'childish' as an attack (apart from your other comments) is all the confirmation I need to assure me I am dealing with someone here who has absolutely no understanding of the human condition. Go away with your pop-psychology. Resorting to comments such as 'it's not all about you' is a meaningless cheap shot and apart from that - I'm sorry - MY RESPONSE to any particular situation IS ACTUALLY ALL ABOUT ME, and I am not denying that. I am human and have internal responses to external events - so crucify me. Perhaps you should have a deeper look at some of your responses and you will also see that they are ALL ABOUT YOU too, or moreso all about how small you have been made to feel in your unresolved past. A few years of therapy may help you understand yourself better. Apart from giving you a few moments relief in venting your spleen, I don't think anyone on this site can help you. Try abusing random people on the tube. That's fun and not all about you, selfish or childish at all.

mickh
09 May 2008 at 03:10

.This woman and her kids have gone through unspeakable horrors.I dont see how some people here are making out they can relate to what they have suffered.Its the worst thing i have ever heard of in my entire life.

Robert Powell
09 May 2008 at 13:44

I am pierced your extraordinary insight into the human condition. Look, stop projecting your own needs on to others and stop making everything about yourself. Accept you are not centre stage in a crisis you are not involved in. For most normal people what this woman and her family went through is beyond their imagination. Are you an only child?

Ablack
09 May 2008 at 16:47

It sure would be nice if you all could take the time and energy you have used in the last couple of days to argue with each other and use it for the greater good. Take all the time and energy and direct it toward helping others. Make your town, city, state,country and world a better place. We all must play a part in making sure nothing like this could ever happen again. I have no desire in hearing everyones psycho-babble, are any of you that post actual Psychiatrists or psychlogists?because if not I don't think you have the education to be analyzing everyone. We all need to stop the critism and find ways to help not hinder.

Strawberry
10 May 2008 at 00:24

This is a place for opinion, discussion and choice. I find it very much more helpful to read a perfectly legitimate response that someone has appreciated their own life and what they have as a result of this story (which may be a springboard to doing more to help others) than I do reading the comments of those who appear to be interested in seeking power over others through attempting to make people feel they ought to be ashamed of normal human responses to an event.

jamief
10 May 2008 at 09:41

point taken Jane Greene, I would have been better saying 'I strongly disagree with'

elle
10 May 2008 at 10:41

I wish to encourage all of us who have been drawn to finding out about the fritzl family - for whatever reason - to make a donation to the fund set up to assist her family. - look up notartreuhandbank . I am a therapist working for the NHS and although I don't know anything about the healthcare system in austria, if its anything like the mental health services here, the family will need a LOT of financial support to get timely , adequate and ongoing treatment , as often survivors of horrific child sexual abuse are expected to "be cured" from only 2-3years of therapy, which is sometimes very unrealistic . please people, lets put our energy to positive use towards elizabeth and her children , rather than trying to put each other down on the message board! with my very best wishes to all readers, Elle

Westcoaster
10 May 2008 at 23:21

I'd lie to re-state my fears about media exposure in this case. Apparently the "Red-tops" (I'm learning a lot about the European press) have offered a million euro reward for any photograph of Elisabeth or her children. This is appalling. As fascinated as I am by the case I would prefer to go the rest of my life not knowing what they looked like if it meant they were able to move about this world as they pleased. Already some tabloids have printed undisguised photos of some of the upstairs children which is WRONG.

Apparently the Austrian anti-terrorist unit is guarding the clinic. I can only hope they take care of the papparazi they way they should be treated; with sniper rifles.

Vallingby
11 May 2008 at 06:01

Planet Starbucks,

You are so amazingly condescending. Seriously STFU. You don't need to criticize people being interested or obsessed with such a horrific crime. I find myself waking up each morning and checking to see if there is any new news. Why? I want to know of Kerstin Fritzl's medical condition. Why? Maybe it's a combination of being a registered nurse but also I want so badly for ALL the children and their mother to spend the rest of their lives wonderfully. I actually hope they have a GREAT life, as much as could be hoped for, from now on. Now if Kerstin dies, all she knew was that dank cellar, nothing of a real life. Yes, I envision the children who were below enjoying things they have never seen before. People are in shock and horror at this crime.

I go swimming and I think wow, those children will someday be swimming in a pool I hope. I think of them a lot. And I pray Kerstin will be a part of it. They said a week ago Kerstin wasn't going to make it from organ failure. Then they said she improved.

I hope someday all 6 children and their mother are living in a wonderful home and enjoying life together.

I do NOT feel I have a perverse fascination because I wake up thinking about them. I think the horror of it has touched many people the world over.

And yes "Complex thoughts are only possible with complex language" is a load of rubbish. Just read "The Old Man and the Sea", complex things can be said very simply. It's not the words used, it's how they are put together. For most complex words, there are simple words that convey the same exact meaning. If you prefer to communicate in complex words that is your choice but I prefer to communicate in a simpler way. I have a BA in journalism so I have a little background in writing and the English language. You ARE trying to impress with your convoluted words and I for one am NOT impressed.

I will continue to wake and scan the news for the current medical status of Kerstin Fritzl and other updates.

It is not because I am bored with my middle class existence, it is because I truly care.

I see sick and dying people every day, gunshot victims, burn victims, etc. I am able to care about them AND care about people living in another country who have endured such a horrible dilemma.

I want to send my love and give them all a big huge hug, I think many many people want to, but we can't. We are too far and too removed but if we want to express our horror and shock on a message board well, so be it.

I hope all the children and their mom can enjoy all that life has to offer from now on. I hope that includes Kerstin.

There is so much the 2 older children have missed and it does haunt me. Just being kids, just running around the yard, riding bikes, jumping in a lake, stealing cookies before dinner. All the normal things of childhood.

I don't need to see photographs or anything. All I would hope for is that this family have a wonderful life from now on.

amiablehermit
11 May 2008 at 09:36

Well, this is a very interesting thread. PlanetStarbucks has hijacked the site and has a pal in Robert Powell, et. al. Typical bully behavior. Lower in degree, but effectively akin to Josef Fritzl. Definitely worth ignoring these types -- they will keep sucking you in with insults and push all the hot buttons they can because that is their sport. Since everyone here seems to have forgotten, noone knows anyone here, so these folks may actually be of a very different ilk than what they represent themselves to be to get your goat and divert the conversation to themselves! PlanetStarbucks, for all you know may have a huge wad in the bank and is of a whole step above the middle class -- you don't know, and PS can never prove otherwise. And Robby is obviously just an inciter, loving the conflict since he clearly has no other life.

So, that dispatched, let's get on to discussing what concerns us -- and no, we do not have to defend our interest in this matter to anyone, no matter what accusations they hurl.

Elizabeth Fritzl. I am very glad to be able to focus on her since I have been rather more consumed with posts about her father. We, for some very good reasons, know far less about her than we do about him in the sense that she is not speaking to the press. I think one thing is clear, Gladys, elle, Jenz, and a variety of other people, are quite right in marvelling at this amazing woman. I am sure that I would have killed myself rather than endure what she has. And I particularly liked the point that we have an incredible dichotomy here in the father and the daughter -- monster on the one hand, and virtual saint on the other. Who other than a saintly person could have possibly endured such suffering and survived, escaping only because she needed to save another? The whole thing is amazing. That in itself is sufficient to explain why we are fascinated by this revelation. The circumstances and the characters simply blow your mind. If this were fiction, we would think the author had gone too far. But it reality, and we cannot believe it -- the tenants would have called the cops, the neighbors would have been more suspicious, the wife would have opened the door to Bluebeard's forbidden room. But none of that happened, and we are at loss to understand.

Then we find the media, like wolves, doing their usual bit to get its story anyway it can so that the poor victims cannot even leave the hopital to get fresh air, thereby extending their imprisonment! Can you believe that? I say ban them all from the area. Cordon off the premises, and arrest any trespassers so that these poor sufferers can have a chance to see the trees and breathe the air. The press should have its tail between its legs -- the stories can wait, and they will come in time. Meanwhile, leave these victims alone so they can begin to heal. The media is just exascerbating their plight. Now, THEY are the ones that Planet and Robby should be directing their "fetish" ideas toward, for sure.

As for the father monstronsity, well, i could say volumes about him. Trust me, though, he has already won his game, and whatever happens henceforth will be gravy for him since he has accomplished what he predicted years ago and has achieved world fame. His checkmate is nearly done at age 73 anyway, and now he is just bideing his time to see just how comfortable his state-supported life will be -- he would prefer the greater accessibility of a mental institution since he stands to be able to manipulate the staff there and the media outside with book and film rights as well as interviews, etc. -- mark my words.

But the better story will be Elizabeth's. And don't think that she won't be hounded for it, too.

We have much to be disgusted about, don't we?

SuzieSunshine
12 May 2008 at 02:20

vallingby.... I couldn't have said it better myself !

We are on the same page 100%. I too, start my day thinking about this poor woman and her children, and hope that one day they will enjoy all that the world has to offer. Millions of people around the world share in our feelings. There are always those "few" who must go out of their way to express their "unique" and always different views. I usually just scroll past their comments as soon I notice their retardedness.

Happy Mother's Day Elizabeth Fritzl !

Your years of suffering have changed the lives of millions...today....tomorrow.....and for years to come !

Josef Fritzl.....you are dead to the world. Until your flesh becomes one with your dead soul...you will spend your final days looking over your shoulder in fear and isolation.

Robert Powell
12 May 2008 at 11:33

I think comparing me to a child rapist who locked his daughter in a cellar and then forced her to have his children keeping them all captive for more than two decades could be verging on hyperbole. I'm not objecting to people having an empathetic interest in this story, what I am objecting to is how certain sorts of people always position themselves in the centre of a narrative which has absolutely nothing to do with them. Contrast the way Gladys has responded to this with some of the narcissistic, badly-written prose we've had from the Suzie Sunshines, Strawberrys and so forth. As for you amiablehermit - all you've attempted to do is 'push th hot buttons'. Get over it.

Golden Boy
12 May 2008 at 19:58

I thought I’d get into the spirit of this discussion, and take this opportunity to indulge in my narcissistic, middle-class proclivity for fetishism with the Fritzl story. But first, a bit of an outline.

My background is, like the Fritzls’, a similar class from central Europe. In fact, Herr Fritzl himself reminds me of my grandfather. And if that’s not enough, they both shared the same attitudes to discipline, rules, blah, blah, blah, that have been passed on through the generations to my mummy and daddy. Gives me a nice, warm, cosy feeling of recognition inside. I’m in familiar territory here.

My mum would probably have done Herr Fritzl proud. There were occasions she’d slap me, and told me that if I did not stop crying, she’d keep slapping me harder. Which she did, of course, until I stopped crying. This made her feel proud of me, probably in the same way that Herr Fritzl was proud of his daughter as her teeth were falling out without her complaining. And I remember my room outside the house, that enabled my parents to lock me out of the house but still have a room to sleep in. Nice wholesome stuff of which happy families are made. One time, I remember mummy’s indignation that our neighbours dared to call the police in response to one of my beatings. And like Herr Fritzl, mummy didn’t want her young, golden-haired boy to be sullied by the lower-class neighbours, and so I was deliberately socially isolated. Ahhh, the sweet memories of childhood!

Of course, the pattern repeats itself… the abused child goes on to abuse others. He grows into his teens, is a bit of a misfit, gets abused and abuses others. Life has its ups and downs, its successes and failures, experiences with the opposite sex, and for all intents and purposes seems normal. But there remains an aloneness – something that says that he is different.

The young man sees the error of his ways. As he gets older, he gets wiser. “Truth” becomes important, and in his stands that he takes on truth, he knows that he is becoming a better person. But the aloneness has never left him… a kind of cultural secret… he has been in places where others fear to tread.

I thought that I have arrived at a nice place. I have arrived at a good place. You know, seen my mistakes, stand up for what’s right and so on. Sure, I regretted that I had hurt people along the way, but perhaps the end justified the means. Truth. It was worth it all. No need for pity or sympathy. I always gave as good as I got.

These days, my siblings and I laugh about what I went through. We laugh at my beatings as a child, because for some reason it was funny, and I had risen above it all. I had conquered it all. The abusers were the cowardly fools, and perhaps it is them that we are laughing at… and for them, I can now afford to feel pity. We laugh at how I never lost my sanity… at least on the surface.

But there is nothing to laugh at in the Fritzl story. It makes me cry. If, in my abused childhood, I felt alone, think of how alone Elisabeth must have felt. I think of her attempts to decorate her dungeon. I think of her having no-one but her “father” to “talk” to – with her family living a normal life above. I think of her teeth rotting and falling out, on her own, and of her child, dying. How much aloneness can one person possibly bear? 24 years of it? And she never hurt anyone. I did. I neither deserve nor want sympathy. But Elisabeth? A part of me is hoping that she is lying… that maybe in a week’s time we’ll wake up to the news that she exaggerated things, and maybe “chose” to live in the dungeon for one reason or another. If only. This self-indulgent, middle-class fetish of mine is bothering me. It’s making me confront things in my own life. I don’t know what I can do to make things better. I don’t want to feed the media machine, I don’t want to blindly follow the herd, so what is there left to do? Pray?

SuzieSunshine
12 May 2008 at 23:28

Who is Robert Powell ???

And why is he so pissed off at words?

I stumbled across this blog while searching for a proper mailing address to the Landesklinikum Clinic in Amstettan-Mauer Austria. And silly me...didn't I go and position myself in the center of a narrative which has absolutely nothing to do with me.

With so much being posted about this story...you would think somewhere in this marvelous world wide web...I could find a simple address ! Any chance any of you bloggers could shed a little light ???

Gentlemen ??? Care to take a break from the blogging and help a gal out ? My son would like to send some stickers to little Felix.

SuzieSunshine

Pennsylvania

USA

Gladys
13 May 2008 at 01:28

SuzieSunshine...

Try this addy... the page is in both German and English. It may help.

http://www.bmgfj.gv.at/cms/site/attachments/6/0/9/CH0620/CMS...

Gladys
13 May 2008 at 02:16

Golden Boy...

I am sorry for the abuses you have endured in your life, that you had to go through such rejection and pain and aloneness growing up. It is a shame that anyone has to endure it. Amazing that so many kids make it through it and grow up and find healing and a better life.

I wonder about a couple things that you said in your post and I want to make a clear point for others here who haven't been abused. You say that you "regretted" that you "had" to "hurt people along the way, but perhaps the end justified the means." These people that you hurt, were they people that were abusing you and you fought back and hurt them? If so, then I can see that as being justified. If, however, these were innocent people that you abused because you chose to pass on what had been done to you, then no, that was not justified. And that is Truth.

You said: "Of course, the pattern repeats itself… the abused child goes on to abuse others."

I wish to be perfectly clear here for everyone reading. The pattern repeating itself is a CHOICE, it is not an 'of course'. The abused child can go on to abuse others or the abused child can make a choice that no one will ever suffer at their hands the way they have suffered at another's hands. It is vital that people understand that just because a child is abused does not mean they will turn into an abuser. Just because Elizabeth or those children in the cellar with her were abused does not mean they will now abuse someone else. Or that Elizabeth abused her children who lived with her. Free will is in play here and abuse only begets abuse if the person gives into the rage they have at their abuser(s) and lash out at someone who is safer, i.e. an innocent.

Golden Boy... I hope that you have spent some time in good trauma therapy and that your siblings likewise have had therapy. Whether they were beaten or not, locked into a room outside the house or not, or endured any physical punishment you endured or not, if they witnessed the abuse they likewise were abused and need healing.

I don't believe she is lying. Nor that she 'chose' the abuse, or that she deserved it. That her experiences are causing you to confront things in your own life is wonderful. Painful, but wonderful. I believe the way to make things better is to work on your stuff and become the best person you can be. If all of us would do that then maybe, just maybe, we could break the cycle of abuse and bring healing to the world. Prayer is good too.

stef4light
13 May 2008 at 03:04

PStarbucks, Your comments have already gotten more acknowledgement than they deserve, but then it's apparent that is what you want.... acknowlegement of your incredibly myopic view of humanity - especially the human psyche devoid of any spirituality that you paint a picture of. Hopefully you are not in any field of counseling as it would be unfortunate for your clients. Anyway, this case is not only tragic and all the things the others have said, but a symbol of a world devoid of love, empathy, humility (which I noticed none of in your comments), and kindness to all that is encouraged collectively by depersonalizing events and circumstances in favor or empty intellectualization. It's time to remember, what happens to even one of us effects us all. Your constant referal to "fetish" regarding those in anguish and disbelief over this horror is unfortunate; and your robotic recital of learned jargon in response to heartfelt comments is chilling.

I might only ask why you're investing so much time and energy to defend your postion on this issue if it's so unworthy of everyone's continued interest to begin with.

Golden Boy
13 May 2008 at 03:05

Gladys, thank you for your concern. But this is about Elisabeth. It is not about me. I was outlining my experience merely to place Elisabeth's experience within a context, to try to get a grasp of the gravity of what has happened to her. Cheers.

amiablehermit
13 May 2008 at 05:16

I understand that this article is very general in nature, and must be so by virtue of the situation, but I find myself wondering how many of these speculations will actually wind up applying to Elizabeth the person.

For example, the remark:

Sexual abuse survivors commonly express feelings of extreme guilt: Guilt that they didn’t stop the abuse; guilt that they “let” it go on for so long; guilt that the abuser has been arrested. The public commonly ask “Why didn’t they stop it?” It is vital that such a question is not put so bluntly to Miss Frutzl."

It is hard for me to imagine that Elizabeth will feel guilty that she "did not stop the abuse" or "let it go on for so long". First of all, her very existence and the lives of her children depended upon acquiescing to her father's abuse, and none of them had the opportunity to escape their prison until Kerstin's illness. But once the opportunity presented itself, Elizabeth seized the moment and put it to use. I might be wrong, but I rather doubt that she thinks that she "let" her father torture her and her children; and, given that she insisted on assurances that she would never have to see her father again before saying anything to the police, I also doubt that she feels guilty about his incarceration. I have also yet to hear one report that anyone from the world at large has said anything to the effect of "Why didn't they stop it?" since a stupider question is hard to imagine.

As far as this article goes, which is basically to give an overview of the current understanding psychologists have of abuse victims and how to treat them therapeutically, it is okay. But I am a little disturbed by the insertions of "Miss Fritzl" this and "Miss Fritzl" that, as though she will by fiat follow all the anticipated responses and reactions that a psychologist expects.

Strawberry
13 May 2008 at 07:03

A deeper understanding of the complexity of abuse cases may be now available but so too I hope would be of how the knowledge of how it should be applied. As amiablehermit says, Elisabeth may not fit into the aniticipated responses and reactions that have been expected.

Before her incarceration she showed the stand she wanted to take with her Father which was to leave him and live an independent life. She left home at a young age and was only returned under force.

Another significant factor in this case is surely that she had children. This changed the equation from being simply Elisabeth versus her abuser. While it's true this situation meant she was still having her emotional and physical needs over-ridden by her abuser she was also forced to deal with her situation herself or completely go under. In the process of giving birth and looking after the emotional and physical need of her children she was forced to make choices and the choices she made were in stark contrast to those of her Father. She did the best she could to look after them, educate them, talk to them about the outside world and was concerned for them when they were ill. In the process she was at least able to discover something of her own identity and values even in this extreme environment. In turn the children probably helped her to cope. Perhaps it's not completely surprising that people close to her are observing how remarkably normal Elisabeth appears.

Whatever lies ahead for Elisabeth and her family I'm sure they are not going to be strict text book cases.

dacshund2000
13 May 2008 at 10:38

This grips you at the core of your soul. That a thing (for the lack of a word describing these types of despicable creatures) like Fritzl, crawling the face of this earth is actually a devil clothed in man’s skin.

I’m terrified by the fact, though would be least surprised, that there are other “Fritzls” out there, lurking, still on the loose, perpetrating these crimes of paramount moral degradation and despicability.

The monster is pleading insanity. By law, for a defense of insanity, the medical experts must find that Fritzl does not know what he did is legally wrong, as well as the nature and quality of his acts. Which in this case, seems likely he’s perfectly aware what he’s doing: locking the daughter up for decades to avoid detection.

The daughter gets 7 years, yes, the law is skewed (so as Fritzl’s defense team). But Fritzl can also be charged as an accomplice or even conspirator.

Whatever it is, I personally think Fritzl should be locked up away from any human contact, in an 8 by 8 cell to reflect upon, for the rest of his miserable life his disastrous doings.

All this is just beyond my comprehension. Perhaps these types of incidences prophecizes the decline of human civilization.

dacshund2000
13 May 2008 at 10:42

Oppss... 7 years on the daughter???

I must've read another article and confused with this one. It clearly shows I'm really distressed of that despicable monster.

Just imagine the torment the daughter had to endure.

amiablehermit
13 May 2008 at 13:11

I have just read that the lawyer representing Elizabeth and her family is planning to bring lawsuits against some of the media for violating the family's privacy. I am glad to hear that, but the consequence is that Elizabeth will now be made aware of the press reports circulating hither and yon so that she can assist in the litigation.

Can you imagine coming out into the world for the first time in 24 years and, after just a few weeks, when you haven't even been able to freely explore your new environment because of the presence of a vulturous press, having to face a global media storm and buckle down to working on multiple lawsuits? ! That just blows my mind.

A further remark that the article here makes is:

"Any disclosure of abusive experiences can lead to the individual feeling that they are being abused all over again. People often describe traumatic “flashbacks”, where they feel as if they are being pulled back into the past and are being abused again."

Now that I can see. Perhaps her thearpists will be involved to help monitor the situation. Let's hope the family attorney has some sense as well as a sense of responsibility to protect the family on all levels.

CTgirl
13 May 2008 at 16:26

Regarding people visiting concentration camps and following this story...

I think rather than consumption of "shock recreation" and rubbernecking, did you ever stop to think that people visit the site of concentration camps because they feel pain, empathy, and compassion for those who suffered there? Can you understand it as a visit to pay homage, a trip to Mecca in a way? By standing there in quiet reverence you are honoring the millions who suffered. By shedding a tear you reach out across the divide to what was lost, to the immense waste of human life, and the inhumantiy and mistreatment?

Similarly, in following Elisabeth's sad tale I am apprised of new facts and developments. I'm not doing this as a "gawker." I care about Elisabeth now that I know what she has endured. I look upon her as a woman who could have been my friend, my neighbor. Every time I read about new twists in this sick tale, I send out a silent prayer for her and her children. In my way, I am reaching across the divide...someone she does not even know. Wishing her well and sending her strength. If my compassion and empathy for her suffering could be transformed into currency, along with all the others her awful tale has touched to compassion and caring, Elisabeth would be a very wealthy woman indeed.

I hope in some way her spirit senses the love and concern that has been awakened worldwide by her suffering ordeal and that it strengthens her and gives her peace.

USAGirl

Hajira
13 May 2008 at 17:40

Well this is an interesting discussion. I’ve read many of your comments and considered that PS’s initial argument was one that everyone is aware of especially when you start obsessing over a story that has already read several times. I like many of you have read the details repeatedly wondering why this storey has fascinated me so immensely. Initially my emotion was of disbelief which quickly turned to how is happened – the basic questions of how this crime was physically and logically possible to carry on for so long without detection and then the explanations started coming through which in many ways was even more unbelievable, throughout the past two weeks ive been waiting for some kind of explanation to explain why one human might inflict such suffering to another and then it came in the form of a statement made by the man himself, ‘I am not a monster’. Although I had read Elizabeths story and knew in my head that her version would be the real truth I found myself hanging on for his version. I wish the man had never spoken because what he did in his statement was nearly convince me that maybe we had all got this wrong maybe he wasn’t so bad maybe this was an incestuous relationship and events occurred as he revealed., that maybe somewhere in his insane mind he believed that he had a real family he was protecting and not oppressing.

But then I took a step back emptied my head and realised that this man had nearly convinced me through a very well worded, logical and well thought out explanation that it wasn’t his fault. The thing that really hit me then was that what his statement proved was that he certainly is not insane and is in full control of his mind and above all feels no guilt. The man is a shining example of the worst there is in man. I don’t think anyone can question that this man is evil and evil exists all around us but that evil is driven by our own ability to draw a line and distinguish between right and wrong, as children it starts with small things and then gradually increases to bigger things. The more wrongs you choose the easier that choice becomes until a stage where that wrong becomes the natural course of action for you. This is why it is my belief that the first punishment for the first crime should be severe enough to stop it being repeated. Fritzl had no fear of God, Authority, Elders, neighbours anyone which allowed him to make his wrong his norm.

So in response to the notes on this website our fascination with this story is not a sick fetish but a natural need or desire to understand and comprehend why we as people with intelligence and emotion are capable of committing such atrocities. I think I know and I think I understand though we will probably never understand the real depth to this question - we are capable of such bad things because we are capable of such good things aswell. The answer to the whole universe is that everything balances and therefore if there is no limit to how much good we can do then surely there is no limit to how much bad we can do.

PS I am working class by the way.

Quiet thinker
16 May 2008 at 11:52

It is a classless act. Upper class, middle class and lower class people have all done horrific acts along these lines. The less educated classes here in South Africa believe if they rape a baby girl under the age of 3, they will cure AIDS. There are sick minds in every class. Soul-less bodies. Like organic portals.

kachaa
20 May 2008 at 17:12

What is equally impossible to believe is that Elizabeth's mother "didn't know". That is ridiculous. She knew. She failed to protect her daughter and should be locked up right along with her husband. And now she is pretending to be a friend to Elizabeth - will Elizabeth's therapy ever help her see how wrong this is?

Rainbow like u
21 May 2008 at 23:34

Many people suffer in a similar way - their identity - sexual, social, physical - swallowed up by someone else. Just taken and gone. It's predation, as I see it, like how animals eat each other's meat for hunger or just instinct - just loving the taste of it, I think people who are empty (as Josef sounds to have been) will subsume someone else's being. It's all over the place. In rural Ireland anyway! It's church, isn't it?

I think that this is why there is so much 'fascination' with this story. We are social animals and it's simply interesting to see what happens to humans who have an unusual background.

A 16-year old Muslim girl was kicked to death by her father recently. Her mum called her brothers to help make him stop but they joined in. She hadn't actually done anything but spoken to a British soldier because she had to as she spoke English. In the West of Ireland a case hit the papers last year of a girl-child who died from extreme neglect and abuse - a child hated in her home.

I think that calling the man Josef 'evil'/'sick' is vanity and highlights the blame owing to society who didnt care enough to notice that one woman's husband was extremely abusive, one girl's father was extremely abusive, that one man was behaving in a sociopathic way ... that a young girl had dissapeared from view...

Do we prefer to throw stones at the Batman villain Josef than help the people who have suffered - is that 6, 7, 8 or how many more in this case?

amiablehermit
22 May 2008 at 05:36

Well, the point here was about helping Elizabeth Fritzl -- psychologically -- if I read correctly. Obviously, news reporters sneaking around the clinic and assaulting staff is not helpful, but as I said before, we can expect the worst behavior from here on where the press is concerned.

I don't think that making judgments about Elizabeth's mother's culpability simply because we cannot understand how she could be so oblivious to what was happening to her daughter is all that helpful, either. I think that ther are myriad possible reasons for her being oblivious, not least of which is the very real possibility that she was also abused on some level and was -- as has been indicated in a variety of articles -- somewhat estranged as well as fearful of her husband, as were his other children. Much can escape a dissociated mind when day-to-day coping is the paramount concern.

Rainbow: I don't think the use of the word "evil" is vanity. The word exists for a reason, and it seems to me that if it does not apply to the depravity of Josef Fritzl and people like him, then it has no use at all. On the contrary, though, I think that the word is very apt to describe just such a person, and classically what we would mean by it. With all due respect, the ignorance of others does nothing to mitigate the fact of it.

Dianacares1
23 May 2008 at 09:04

PlanetStarbucks, complex matters do not need complex language, simplicity is the key to understanding. You are a very good judge of what you consider other people's behaviour in reading about this most unfortunate family but for the majority of people it is deeper than your summary. You must be talking about how you are as a person as you certainly have no idea about me. Since hearing about the story I have wondered, in depth, how it would feel to be a young and beautiful girl, not only deprived of the joy of youth, the light and sun but on top of this to have such a brutal father visiting her daily to add to her torture. It isn't fascination dear, it is compassion for other people that makes me follow her story and I will be even more interested when I know she is happy at last, if that is possible, and that they are all past their ordeal. How pompous to suggest you have any idea how people react in reality to these horrendous examples of familial abuse.

Ellen Kember
26 May 2008 at 17:23

"The chain of causality extended by new links, daily lengthened by research, but is never closer to the truth, never really knows the eitology of a child's death/abuse. While research continues to reveal causes behind the causes in an unending chain of causality, as when a man holding a mirror looks at his own image in a set of confronting mrirors, and sees a man holding a mirror and in this mirror the image of a man holding a mirror, and so on, in infiinte repetition.(Gonzales Crussi, Refelctions on child abuse)

There can never be an understanding of human fury, violence, of victimisation, wherever they take place in the world and with more horrific frequency than ever. For behind all of Fritzl's acts of cruelty, is the belief that one of his children was singled out to undergo the same distortions he himself experienced as a child, and perhaps his mother had in turn subjected him too. Frtizl's exclusive supremecy over his family, has submitted his daughter to the gravest, most deprived parental sadism, any child or adult should have to bear. Elizabeth's mother left her vulnerable, and open to abuse, she failed to protect and care for this daughter in particular. Knowing that her mother was walking over ahead every day, and yet never once, in all those years tried to find out what was going on downstairs..is incomprehensible. That they are placed together in therapy, yet as one 'happy family' without these questions - Why did you never come looking for me? Why were you not there for me? Why did you leave me at home with him and take my sisters on holiday? Why did you stay with a man even if he is my father, who had raped another woman? Elzabeth Frtizl deserves, rather should demand these answers, and in turn his wife needs to share some responsibilty for her acts.

Ellen Kember
26 May 2008 at 17:26

"The chain of causality extended by new links, daily lengthened by research, but is never closer to the truth, never really knows the eitology of a child's death/abuse. While research continues to reveal causes behind the causes in an unending chain of causality, as when a man holding a mirror looks at his own image in a set of confronting mrirors, and sees a man holding a mirror and in this mirror the image of a man holding a mirror, and so on, in infiinte repetition.(Gonzales Crussi, Refelctions on child abuse)

There can never be an understanding of human fury, violence, of victimisation, wherever they take place in the world and with more horrific frequency than ever. For behind all of Fritzl's acts of cruelty, is the belief that one of his children was singled out to undergo the same distortions he himself experienced as a child, and perhaps his mother had in turn had been subjected to. Frtizl's exclusive supremecy over his family, has submitted his daughter to the gravest, most deprived parental sadism, any child or adult should have to bear. Elizabeth's mother left her vulnerable, and open to abuse, she failed to protect and care for this daughter in particular. Knowing that her mother was walking over ahead every day, and yet never once, in all those years tried to find out what was going on downstairs..is incomprehensible. That they are placed together in therapy, yet as one 'happy family' without these questions - Why did you never come looking for me? Why were you not there for me? Why did you leave me at home with him and take my sisters on holiday? Why did you stay with a man even if he is my father, who had raped another woman? Elzabeth Frtizl deserves, rather should demand these answers, and in turn his wife needs to share some responsibilty for her acts.

bluecat
26 May 2008 at 21:57

The issues of the Fritzl family are very complex cannot be bundled into a neat package by diagnostic categories or by sociological perspectives of class structure. However, the human fascination of misdeeds is well-known. Durkheim and others looked at deviance as being a way for people to clarify what is right/ wrong and what is really really bad. The key deviance's here are: rape, incest, Fritzl's rape of other women and use of prostitutes, incarcerating family members in a hidden cellar. By identifying behavior that is really, really bad, we can follow through and enact laws to punish those who transgress. We can also look to be more active friends and neighbors to prevent tragedies.

Yes, we also want to have a happy ending to a tragic story.

I am hopeful that the strength of Elisabeth throughout her ordeal will serve her well in the days, months, and years to come. She has enormous burdens, the need to move on with her life, engage as she can with her children and to deal with the emotions about her father and mother. Victim though she was, she showed concern and support for her children. Indeed her first statements were for her not to see or let her father see her or her children.

As to Fritzl, I think that most would find his vile, repulsive, horrific behavior to have few parallels. He is an aberration, probably a sociopath with obsessive compulsive drives (though diagnostic categories probably have to be revised for this critter). Elisabeth does not wish him dead, or she might have reasonably done this during her early years of confinement and torment regardless of his gassing the cellar threats. The punishment for this man should be indefinite solitary confinement until his death not death. He should experience some of the same deprivation that he perpetrated..

The largest risk in this situation is Elisabeth's mother. I believe that she may not be able to tolerate the incongruity of her emotional stance with her husband in the past, e.g. denial of her daughter's abuse, and now the light of what that ignorance and denial fed. She may well decide that her husband was not at fault, that he was a little troubled, and didn't mean to do this. If she (the mother) returns to her husband, then Elisabeth will be truly bereft.

I am truly sorry for those who have been abused by parents, adults. Abuse clings to the person's psyche throughout life. For survivors of brutalities: we cannot delete the past, only change how we view the present.

Penrhyn
27 May 2008 at 02:59

I had a father similar to Josef Fritzl. I never was trapped though, I just ran away indefinitely. And he was too lazy to build an underground shelter to capture me. It would take a book explaining my escapes, return by cops, etc. My name is Elizabeth, too.

Elisabeth, please visit the Cook Islands, seen at url: http://www.cook-islands.com/ for some privacy, new life, etc. or may I suggest the high Sierra's. California is lovely around Yosemite.

Wishing you love, healing, light and happiness,

lizzie

Penrhyn
27 May 2008 at 03:04

:)

Penrhyn
27 May 2008 at 03:12

California even has a blue Santa in Madera! :) Who knew! A smurf Santa! hahahahahaha....it'll be a blue Christmas, etc. hahahaha.

Lisaana
27 May 2008 at 19:11

Everyone is entitled to their opinions but i dont think this is a time to debate about human nature and fetishism. Can we focus on on sending well wishes to Elisabeth and her imprisoned children instead? I'm just a young girl and i dont know much about these topics you speak of but something about it seems disrespectful to me. I'm sure what you say applies to some people, because it's not possible to generalise to everyone. But i dont feel this is something to discuss on a public forum like this. It's not important. What's important is collectively sending well wishes to the victims. Hope you all have a lovely day/night...I had to force myself a smile after reading this because its distressing! Try it :)

Lisaana
27 May 2008 at 19:19

Sorry i posted my comment twice! I thought it didnt go through the first time so i had to retype it from memory! Also i was refering to comments by people about middle class people liking perverse stories. Cheers everyone :)

Penrhyn
27 May 2008 at 20:03

I agree. Some people are like Anthony Hopkins in "Silence of the Lambs"; 'Did you enjoy it? (Slurping like a snake)'.

I prefer Craig Ferguson on CBS's Late Late Show. Crazy Scotsman turned American. He makes me laugh out loud!

I hope Elisabeth and her family get to eat the whole apple of life, not just take a bite.

Wishing you healing for you and yours, Elisabeth. May all your dreams come true. Good luck and blessings.

lizzie

1943dower
28 May 2008 at 02:55

Absolutely Outstanding

In all of my sixty-four years of living I can number the women that have inspired me on one hand. Elisabeth Fritzl in Austria must surely number highly amongst those.

Incarcerated for twenty-four years she maintained her dignity and sanity, all the while being the bearer, carer, teacher, and intercessor for those children that were with her . Elisabeth, during those terrible years endured difficulties that are beyond the comprehension of most of us who all of our lives have enjoyed unhindered freedom.

The entire nation of Austria should be immensely proud of this young woman whose unparalleled feat of human endurance has few equals in human history. Forget the events surrounding the father and give this incredible woman the honor she so richly deserves.

I know of no man, including myself who would be worthy of the hand of such an inspirational woman. May the rest of her life make up, at least in part for that which she has lost over the past twenty-four years.

Herb

kathryn
29 May 2008 at 19:30

Thank you, Herb! Your assessment of Elisabeth really rings true. My own reaction to her story, once I try to look beyond the obvious horror of the deprivations she and her children have suffered, is to feel in awe of her. And inspired by her.

I am sorry to read the news that she and expended family feel the need to assume new identities. They shouldn't have to keep their lives a secret, and indeed it may prove hard to do so. Elisabeth's 'upstairs children' and siblings all have had full lives, with friends and work, and many connections. Why should they have to flee? I wish, instead, that the media could back off and keep a respectful distance. This family should be offered the protections usually reserved for film stars or royalty--rather than forcing them to, in effect, once again go 'underground.'

y ani and the incredibly length of imprisonment, is one of

Sunday
30 May 2008 at 03:44

I agree they shouldn't HAVE to assume new identities but probably want to I would say. The name Fritzl will now and forever be charged with a sense of intrigue, horror and curiosity - not something you'd probably be wanting to inspire if you're trying to get on with your life and put it all behind you. We can not speak on behalf of Elisabeth, but maybe she'd be quite happy to change her name. I would no longer want to carry the name of my father if I had her experience. I would be happy to chose a new one. While it is true that in some way she is still being held captive by the media, maybe it's not such a dreadful thing to assume a new identity? I wish her so much wellness. Everyday I feel her and her kids slowly digesting the liberation of their freedom and am so heartened to hear they are doing well.

zenprankster
30 May 2008 at 04:28

Agreed, the Fritzl case is so abominable that it is hard to fathom, and I also agree that the writer (planetstarbucks) is projecting her own dismal view of self onto the rest of society. Most of us genunely care about the human condition, and this case certainly stirs empathy like no other. So....more power to the innocent victims, more punnishment to the monster who abused them, and more enlightenment to Planetstarbucks who cannot seem to see beyond her own self-imposed mental box.

graham
30 May 2008 at 10:31

I recently posted a comment that was deleted - probably some liberal do gooder who wants to censor all opinions not matching (hers), typical of the left leaning, civil liberties brigade in UK- I made an argument that it was the liberal bias in the west (Europe) that is letting down vulnerable people and probably this paper is one of the worst offenders. Elisabeth Fritzl is a victim of her evil father, he got away with it for so long because he is a sociopath and therefore adept at lieing and manipulating the very people I mentioned earlier. It is so sad that fritzl will probably be certified insane and have doctors, social workers and various specialists to "help" him get over "his" agony (at being caught!). No-one among these "specialists" will mention the victim bacause noone ever pays regard to the lives ryuined by these evil men. fritzl did what he did because he wanted unlimited, free sex with a young pretty girl - a common male ideal, expecially among older men. He focused on his daughter because she was available to him and he fancied her. He locked her up because he knew - his words - noone would question him. Untill the society that fosters this nonsense about protecting everyones civil rights is actually thought about this type of thing where a sociopath can do what ever his depraved mind can think of with impunity will go on.

I actually heard this morning that the liberal "elite" actually want to talk to terrorists Al queida as if there is anything that the west could do to appease them. Same thing goes for fritzl, he is a sex maniac, predator sociopathic liar. His daughter is an extraordinary woman who deserves better than all this rubbish about getting into the mind of her abuser - the scale of the abuse she suffered is so enormous that finally "society" should think about her, for a change

kathryn
30 May 2008 at 17:52

I do think that the last name of Fritzl will long be tarnished--and therefore taking a new last name is absolutely in order for Elisabeth and her children. Whether they need also to change their first names or, as the news report put it, 'establish new identities', is another issue. It just seems sad to me that people who have had virtually NO chance to establish themselves in the world, and who have had NOTHING but their first names to call their own, would have to invent an alias. They have nothing whatsoever to be ashamed of, and should have no need to hide. If the media attention is putting them on the run, so to speak, it is truly a crime. On the other hand, I'm glad for them to get out into the fresh air, to find a place to live, to go to school, to meet new friends... I just don't want them to have to start their new lives with lies. They have had enough secrecy to last a dozen lifetimes...

a lie. ttthehfia

darcygelding
30 May 2008 at 22:46

I tried to post a comment the other day, but it was obviously too controvesial, by statinf FRitzl should be castrated and kept in solitary confinment for the rest of his sorry life with no human contact, as he did to his poor soul of a daughter whos life he has ruined. He is a dirty perverted old man who deserves no ones time, or sympathy. May he rot in prison.

Christine
01 June 2008 at 09:02

Come take a look at this idea that floats outside of the box... Can we can all agree that existance itself is more mysterious than it is understood? What if everything that happens to everyone, is really perfection but because we don't see the whole story, we judge and condemn out of our fear, instead? Our acceptance of what reality is, is so habitually fear based at it's core (the study of economics, for example, is the study of how human beings deal with lack) but that core is SO buried as to be unrecognizable as fear, so instead we take it for granted as 'what is.' The cutting edge scientists of our day, across many fields, are encountering the possibility that we create our own reality via the power of thought. What if "Hell" is a state of consciousness? Consider the Andrea Yates story. Let's imagine her soul when it is ready to begin climbing out of her particular hell. Let's say in another life 'her' soul constructs a situation similar to Elizabeth Fritlz's, and in this way the 'Andrea' aspect of the soul is able to balance the horrific act of drowning all her children, against the horrific experience of being a victimized to the extent that Elizabeth Fritzl was victimized. And to add to the purity of the 'karma balancing', the 'Elizabeth' aspect of the soul won't have knowledge of what 'she' is paying back, and so will appear as a 'victim' to herself and to those around them. This would be perfection, wouldn't it, although it doesn't appear to be so, when viewed without full knowledge. What if everything, I mean EVERYthing, is love, and we are the artists who choose, with God's blessing (and God's tears for surely God, like any parent of teenagers, wishes we made better choices).

Just food for thought is all...

Gladys
01 June 2008 at 15:41

Christine...

I have taken a look at your idea that 'floats outside the box' and found it wanting. It is just another way to blame the victim, this time by saying the victim deserved what she got because she did something horrible in another life and is paying for it. What you are suggesting seems like a little mix of Karma with a little mix of Reincarnation with a little mix of existentialism. Not to disparage your particular beliefs, but I don't believe those beliefs are firmly set in the reality of humankind's existence, let alone founded in a deep understanding of the various ideologies the beliefs are extracted from.

What would be interesting to know is how does this out of the box thinking help you deal with this news story? Or for that matter, with other victims of abuse or tragedy?

darcygelding
01 June 2008 at 19:48

GOD SAVE us from the DO gooders of this world, Nothing poor Elizebeth could possibly have done would deserve 24yrs of violent rape and incarceration by her pervert of a Father. Let alone giving birth the way she was forced to. You obviously believe that incest is OK and incest by force is fine?? Perhaps YOU should look outside the BOX>

amiablehermit
02 June 2008 at 04:22

I think anyone who has ever truly suffered would be all in favor of throwing out both the inside and the outside of the box. A great puzzle for all religions and philosophies has been the question of suffering, and another one has been the problem of the existence of evil. It does no good to rationalize these issues in the service of finding a way in which "perfection" can be the true and ultimate state of things. Perfection is a human concept, first and foremost, to be sure, but there is nothing anywhere that says that all is ultimately "perfect". Even in Genesis, at best, creation was "good".

This is not to say that there is no nobility in suffering -- far from it. But let us not demean that nobility by trying to make its causal suffering less horrendous than it is. It is by virtue of the extent of the atrocity that the triumph of the human spirit can be witnessed.

As for evil, one knows it well enough when one encounters it, and it is no use trying to imagine it away through mental rebellion. Anyone who has transcended its destruction knows all too well what it is about, and how capricious it can be. It knows no box. And neither does saintliness.

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 08:57

Elizabeth Fritzl and I have a few things in common:

Mainly that we're both the same age (42). Our oldest children were both born the same year. And we were both physically and sexually abused (horrifically raped) by our fathers for a prolonged period of time. In addition, we share the consequence that niether of our mothers knew about "it" until after "it" was over.

But thats where the similarities end, pretty much.

I am a boy, after all. She is a girl. My innocense and hope for a future was taken from me when I was six, and contiued until I was eighteen. She was stripped of her love for life and trust in others when she was eleven, as I understand it.

I was beaten and sodomized routinely my entire childhood. I was the oldest child of five, and the only boy. The beatings decreased over the years because it was hard to hide the bruises but primarily because I became more compliant with the rapes.

When I was eighteen, the year Elizabeth was abducted, I escaped my father by marrying my girlfriend and joining the army. And, after "confessing" what had happened to me to my new wife and marriage counselor a year later, everything became public knowledge.

The public was out-raged, but satisfied, when my father was indicted on 27 counts of rape and 14 counts of child abuse, convicted of 2 counts of rape, and sentenced to 5 years each!! He served 6 1/2.

My mother had a traumatic breakdown and was hospitalized for over two months.

My sisters didn't know who to believe; thier older brother who was sometimes mean to them, or thier very father who loved them and never touched them that way.

My wife left, and took our son with her, before the trial was even over.

My life has been in the toilet ever since. My torment ended 24 years ago!! After 24 years, 4 1/2 years of therapy, 9 years of honorable service to my country during a time of war, an associate degree in science technology, two marriages, four children, never once ever being accused or convicted of a crime, not even a traffic ticket in 10 years, I can't keep a job or maintain a relationship for more than 15 months.

I have no faith in myself, or others. I'm borderline anti-social, and I often feel like my life has been stolen from me. I can barely breathe from the weight of guilt I harbor for utterly destroying my family's lives.

But, when I heard of Elizabeth Fritzl, I went numb.

For the past 24 years, while I've been hoplessly groping at recovery from my abusive childhood, she has been entombed!! The torture is absolutely un thinkable!! I AM IN SHOCK.....

I've been watching every day since the news broke. I've been searching for updates daily on her well-being and the well-being of her children. I pray for her every night. You are my inspiration, Elizabeth.

I can't wait to hear her speak of her ordeal. I can't wait to see a picture. I talk about it where ever I go. I want to write to her. If I had any money, I would gladly give it to her. It hurts me so bad to know that for the last 24 years, my entire adult life, she has been in a 5 1/2 foot hole in the ground.

There's not enough space to fully debate the tragedy of Elizabeth Fritzl's life or that of her children. Thier lives will be talked about for years. Thier experiences are beyond that of any other science is aware of.

People will be curious of them forever, no matter where they come from or what they've been through. Only the holocaust comes close. The complexities of the entire family structure are beyond comprehension to most of us.

Of course they need a new life. If they try to face the world, they will be hunted by people even as innocent as me for the rest of thier lives.

Who gives a crap what name they use.

Christine? Your "outside the box, floaty idea, thing" isn't even worth a comment except to say that I actually feel dumber for having taken the time to read it.

Joseph Fritzl is of no use to anyone now, not even researchers. He will not be found insane. He probably won't live to see his trial.

Fetishes??? Kirsten Fritzl is on a ventilator fighting for her life as I write this crap. She is 19 and has no teeth! She has yet to see the moon! She helped dig her own tomb. She was used as a sexual object by her father who is her grandfather. If you ask me, I think she's near death from a suicide attempt. She has never touched a tree.

I think Planet starbucks and Antileft clearly don't grasp the weight of the situation. Thank you for nothing!

Bluecat....Nice job. You strike alot of chords, but remember to do your homework. It's not the gas in the cellar, natzi threat stuff that kept Elizabeth from killing her father. It wasn't the "my word is the law" speach from thier grandpa that kept the kids from jumping him and tearing him from limb to limb. It wasn't even the lies he most likely told them. It was the 6-digit keycode that you needed to open the steal door that only he knew. Without it, they starve!

Try this out: If Joeseph Fritzl had died of a heart attack last year on his toilet upstairs, he probably would have gotten a nice funeral. And half his family would be dead, in each others' arms, right now.

I understand the astonishment that some people feel about hearing how poor Elizabeth endured such a life, but wonder if they fully grasp how terrible it really must have been. I certainly can't get my head around it. Her life has been shortened by twenty, maybe thirty years. She looks like her mother's older sister, from what the police say. Her children are troglodites. She'll never know love. She's not a hero. She's not a "survivor". She's a ghost.

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 09:25

To: Ellen Kember.

I don't wish to embolden any resentment to Elizabeth's mother. If she had any knowledge of this atrosity, she should be punished.

But if you read my story it may help. I know how bad it looks, believe me. I've lived through something which pales, by comparison, but is relative, at least.

My mother never knew what happened to me and we all lived in the same house. Fritzl didn't need to kidnap his daughter to abuse her until she was of the normal age to leave home. I think he kidnapped her to keep his wife, and everyone else, from finding out what he already did to her. Once I was out of the house, I was free to accuse my father of the abuse. If Elizabeth moves out, she'll tell. That makes me think that the mother really never did know, you see?

Ok, think about this. We all agree that Joseph is a socio-pathic

helenhill11111
02 June 2008 at 09:37

To Herb who after 64 years has only one handful of women that have inspired him: not that i begrudge Elizabeth Fritzl your respect (I too respect her) but in 64 years to not be inspired by more than four women??? and to place an imprisoned and abused woman at the top of your list of women who have inspired you? Something's wrong there Herb. Sorry. Something's definitely wrong, check it out. (Alice Walker Aung San Suu Kyi Rigoberta Menchu Tum (Nobel Peace Prize) Dorris Lessing Evelyn Hammond (Dean of Harvard) Shirley Chisolm Sarah Vaughn Terry Tempest Williams Margaret Mead Pearl Buck Lillian Hellman Rosa Parks Ann Frank Mother Teresa Rachel Carson Helen Caldicott.......)

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 09:47

oops, sorry. hit the post botton.

Joseph is a socio-path. But these people are rare. I doubt that BOTH he and his wife are sick beyond any comprehension....

Once my mother knew the truth, it destroyed her. To this day, and I'm not exaggerating, I have to remind her that it's not her fault. If Elizabeth's mother would have known, she and her children would have freed her.

Look at the evidence of this man's brutality and carelessness.

He started building a "fallout shelter" when Elizabeth was still a kid. When he had finished, it was only one room. All he needed at the time. It wasn't till after Elizabeth had given birth to four children, one of which died, that he made her and thier kids dig the other two rooms.

He bricked up the old "bomb shelter" and built shelves in front of the wall. There was no room, that the mother knew of.

And he made Elizabeth write letters to her mother, explaining where she was and about the kids that she couldn't care for. I'm sure her mother wrote Elizabeth letters that Joseph would "mail".

The only way he got the three kids he took out of the cellar from Elizabeth was because she knew where they were going......She knew her mom would raise them. She loves her mother, I'll bet.

People please read up on the story. Elizabeth's mother is a victim.

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 11:51

Ok, might get crap for the "she's a ghost" comment.

So, in pre-defense. I've got time.

When I say that she'll never know love, I'm referring to any kind of sexual, romantic, adult relationship that most people take for granted. She's been seriously

and catastrophically destroyed in that reguard.

However, the love she must have for her kids is probably the rarest and truest form of love ever known. Imagine what they must mean to her.

She was affected by this experience on all of the worst levels, but she started out just like you and me. She knew right from wrong. She had no mental problems.....

But her experience matches, if not supasses, that of the average prisoner at Auschwitz(sp). (probably get something on that too)(She probably wasn't facing pestulance and starvation, which are horrendous, but she was chained to a pole and incestuously raped for like nine years. Oh, and she gave birth to seven children, one of which was burned in an incinerator)

To most modern day mental health providers, what happened to Elizabeth must appear like the worst kind of cancer.

She has always known where her children, who were taken from her, went to. He probably reported on them. She probably didn't much care about being used by him after she had her first child. After that her only fear was for them. God, how this story affects people.

The things she had to deal with.

People struggle, and often fail, at recovering completely from tragedy, torture, evil government regimes, religious persocusions. rape, incest, and wrongful imprisonment.

It's a miracle she's alive.

graham
02 June 2008 at 17:38

Speakeasy42 - very incisive post. I really would like more understanding of josef fritzl - only then we can see how people like him are formed and how they achieve their sick goals in life. What happened to Elisabeth is, ofcourse, impossible to portray - the abuse of trust, the dereliction of everything being a father stands for, the cruelty is off the scale - I would say even for a pschycopath like fritzl. My problem with all this is that the only way for Elisabeth to attempt any kind of reconciliation at all is for her father to suffer. When the liberal media go on about changing offending behaviour, about the rights of people like fritzl is is an insult to the victims in this case as well as being something that will hold them back from any sort of recovery.

fritzl is, naturally, evil beyond comprehension, what he did is so cruel and perverted it is hard to imagine a human mind could conceive such a thing and keep it going for so long. fritzl deserves no pity, he doesnt pity his family but is engrossed in a pitifull, sickening display of self pity...why... becasue his "lovely idea" has come to an end and he has lost control of hi family forever.

anyone suggesting kama or Elisabeth is paying for sins committed in a previous life, whatever, is a nutcase pure and simple. A bit of retribution would help Elisabeth, if she knew her father was suffering...really suffering, being tortured in a windowless cell for the rest of his life - just maybe she could feel a bit better about justice in life.

kathryn
02 June 2008 at 19:55

Speakeasy42, your posts offer real insight into Elisabeth's case, and thank you for sharing part of your own, sad story. You know--but it can't be said enough!--that the abuses YOU suffered in childhood are absolutely not your fault, and not the fault of your mother (since, as you say, she did not know of the abuse). It was hard at first for me to believe that Elisabeth Fritzl's mother was not somehow involved (TWENTY-FOUR years??? Come on!!!) but on the other hand... 24 years is 24 years, and certainly if she had any inkling, that was ample time to take action. So I think now that she didn't know. I'm glad the Austrian authorities agree, and are not charging her. That they are, in fact, treating the whole family, shows compassion. Your posts here have made me reconsider my earlier comment--saying that I think the family should not have to change their names and identities, etc. Well, I do think it is awful if the media attention is what might make them give up,, at least in the case of the "upstairs family", the identities they've always known, and the friends, and the life... But I do see more clearly now that for ELisabeth and the children from the cellar whatever they want is what they should have. Even if it keeps the media away from them for another year or two (because it's hard not to believe their secret won't be discovered and reported on by avid journalists), new identities will buy them more time to acclimate. I don't know if healing ever will be possible for them; you say yourself that you have a lot of troubles stemming from your childhood abuse--and you were even able to see the sky, touch a tree, breathe fresh air, and grow up to work, meet people, fall in love, have children... So much that we all take for granted. You have had all this--and still haven't been able to heal completely. How in the world , then, could ELisabeth ever heal? I don't think she can--but that is not to say her life, whatever she can make of it from this point on--needs to be unhappy. In fact, given what has been "normal" for so long (TWENTY FOUR YEARS UNDERGROUND plus all the earlier years of abuse) it would seem that just sitting on a front porch, looking at the sky, feeling the breeze on her face, eating a peach and reading a book might be a version of heaven. Certainly knowing that her children can now walk on the beach, fly in an airplane, talk on the phone to a friend, plant a garden, play with a puppy . . . will bring her happiness. (that is my hope for them; though I do understand that they may be so damaged, they won't be able to cope with things like airplanes... ) I know that since I first read about the Fritzl tragedy (and, like you, I check everyday and have compulsively read everything there is available online--even those articles and blogs and utube-clips from Austria since I also speak German), I have been intensely aware of 'the little things.' I sat on my front porch noticing the beautiful varieties of greens in my garden, and I think how Elisabeth had no vista to look at, how her children never saw grass, and so on. I think back to all the things I've done over the past 24 years (virtually my entire adult life; I just turned 50) and am washed by the wave of horror : ALL THAT TIME ELisabeth was entombed.

This has become a long post.... but I guess I just wanted to say that your own lengthy post moved me. IN fact, I'm glad to have found this online place to talk about the tragedy with people who seem to care, even allowing for our various interpretations. Nonetheless I must say I don't think Elisabeth Fritzl is a ghost. I think she may believe herself to be a ghost--but she is far from that, if the definition of ghost is someone dead, someone weightless, powerless, gone from this world. She is not any of that: She was always the sustaining presence in her underground family, a huge worry to her mother and siblings upstairs (who thought she was brainwashed in a cult), and now, above ground, is having a HUGE impact on people worldwide, even though we've never seen her, heard her, or met her in person. That's not a ghost!! That's a very unusual, but nonetheless powerful, spirit.

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 21:12

Dear Kathryn,

Thank you for your kind words. It means alot.

And please understand that my intention was never to seek empathy, or to compare my suffering with that of the Fritzl's. I only wanted to get this topic back on track. This is not the place for debates about reincartation, middle-class voyueristic fetishes, left-wing politics, or the great acvievements of women in history. I'm concerned about this family and hope to share my thoughts and concerns with like-minded people.

After hearing about Elizabeth, I feel like I just wasted 24 years!! Hell, I've been feeling sorry for myself for too long. I hope to have the strength in the future to see that my life is still a blessing and I should charish it.

This woman has shown me what people can do. The weight I used to carry is considerably lighter now. I feel like trying harder to throw off my yoke. My dinner tastes better than it ever did before.

She is truly an inspiration to all those who have been mis-treated. She is a beacon, and I completely agree that she has had a HUGE impact on people worldwide.

I'm sure she really is a hero to some people, like me. And I'm wrong to say she's not a survivor. My ghost comment was put there to attract discussion, and debate about her rehab. It's funny that you used the word "spirit" though.

kathryn
02 June 2008 at 22:13

No Speakeasy42--I never did think you were trying to seek empathy or even sympathy (although you have mine anyway!). I think it's quite clear from your posting that you're horrified and moved, as I am, and as so many of us are worldwide and on this site, by Elisabeth Fritzl's strength. I've never suffered as she did, nor even as you did, nor--come to think of it--really at all... but my dinner sure tastes better these days, too. Life feels sweeter, more precious, because of our awareness of all that Elisabeth has been denied.

On the subject of Josef Fritzl... I'd like to say that I do not think he's insane. I think he's a terribly damaged person, but he knew very well that what he was doing was wrong. And he didn't care. His own obsession took control. He is a sociopath, egomaniac, and perpetrator of immense cruelty and evil. I think prison for the rest of his life is what he should get. As for what he DESERVES, I think that should be left to God. I am against torture--even as retribution for torture--because it is wrong. Abuse is just plain wrong, all around. I don't think society--or the Austrian penal system--should do anything except lock him quietly away from the world. I don't think Elisabeth or her family would be served by having him suffer as they did; I think, in fact, Elisabeth should not waste one more SECOND of her life thinking about the man who ruined hers, but should 'seize the day' --and every day she has left--to do everything she's missed, everything she's yearned to do all her life. She can't heal from the past, and she can't forget it... but if possible she shouldn't let it consume her one second longer. Josef Fritzl's punishment should be to be locked away from the world and from all his family members forever, and to have them never give him another second's thought. I know it is unlikely they can 'put him out of mind', but it would be great if they could because every second they still think about him --even to damn him or to plan revenge--means he still has power to hurt them.

It will be interesting to see if Elisabeth or her children decide to speak to the media or grant that rumored interview... I would be one of the first in line to read it or watch it... But, really, she doesn't owe us anything--not an explanation or an accounting or The True Story... or anything. She could make millions of euros, dollars, pounds... and on the one hand I'm thinking: take the money! Use it to do all the things you've thought about all those years... But maybe what she's longed to do all those years is just be an ordinary woman, living in an ordinary village in Austria, working some ordinary job... And so maybe she'll just need to quietly disappear from the scene. Something of this magnitude is so shattering it can't be digested and reported on in an interview, made sense of, discussed, really. Not yet. She'll have a lot more to say to the world--if she feels like it, and if no one hounds her--in about five years. If we're lucky.

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 22:26

Graham,

Being in a non-threatening, therapuetic environment, with her family is the best we can hope for. Believe me when I say that it can't get any better than that for Elizabeth Fritzl.

I'm guessing that she probably is racked with sorrow and anxiety over the state of her oldest child, Kirsten. I'm sure that her whole day today will be spent trying not to worry so much about Kirsten.

Kirsten has been her sole reason for living for the past 19 years. Kirsten helped her give birth, and cared for her siblings. She must be more than a child to Elizabeth. She has been her world! She's been there with her almost all along.

Wow. Just stop and try to picture what thier relationship must be like. To Elizabeth, loosing Kirsten would be worse than loosing her legs!

Bear with me, I'm getting to Joseph....

Anne Carpenter's article above tries to help us see that, even though Elizabeth has overcome impossible odds already, she has just as difficult hardships ahead of her. Her biggest problems haven't even sunk in yet. I'll bet her least concern right now is whats gonna happen to the monster that did this.

My mom didn't hear about my ordeal from me. She was told by a deputy. When she found out, she was completely overwhelmed. On every level. She was put in a hospital for two months!! Needless to say, she was pissed off, brother!

She spit venom at my father. Her eyes were like daggers when she spoke of him. She wanted him dead! dead! dead! She prayed that he would be publicly castrated.

I'm asked all the time if I'm outraged over the measly 6 1/2 years my father spent in a solitary cell, isolated from the other inmates who wanted to gang-rape him and put his carcass on display.

My sisters and thier husbands try thier best to console me whenever the issue happens to pop up. They express remorse over the fact that he has gotten his treatment for free, while it cost our mother and us thousands in counseling. And we still have problems.

I just wish everyone would forget about it. I hate the fact that I ever said anything! Even though it means that my father would go free and unpunished.

I'm plagued with the question of how our lives would be different today if I had just kept my mouth shut! It has scarred everyone involved, and deeply! And the ripples are endless. My wives. My kids. The pain I caused my mother to endure is the worst burden of all.

As an adult, it's really tough trying to remember that I was just a scared, traumatized boy. I have to struggle daily with the fact that if I would have simply looked at mom and told her that daddy was being mean, I would have changed history.

I don't think about him. I'm too busy thinking about my life and the lives of my family to be concerned about him. Like Anne Carpenter's article says, guilt over what has happened is the biggest monkey. Not justice, or revenge.

I could be completely wrong, but I think that Elizabeth Fritzl's concern about justice is just a drop in the bucket.

Speakeasy42
02 June 2008 at 23:25

Imagine that your eighteen. You and your sister and brother have been locked away with your mother, wrongfully imprisoned, for your entire life. The only contact with the outside world is through a t.v. that probably received about 5 channels.

You've never been outside. You've never seen the sun. You've never felt the warmth of it on your skin, ever. The only people you have ever met or talked to were the family you lived with. You've never known any better life than this.

You've been above ground now for a little more than a month. It still hurts your eyes to be outside during the day, and the openess scares you silly.

Suddenly a man jumps from the bushes, takes your picture, and asks you how you feel about what has happened to you.

What would you do?

amiablehermit
03 June 2008 at 04:46

What would I do? Well, I am not Elizabeth Fritzl, so I can't say what she would do. But I would say "How do you think I feel?" And then take my parasol and stroll away....

Strawberry
03 June 2008 at 06:24

What would I say?

Sorry Speakeasy but you've asked for it!

"Being locked in a cellar for 24 years and raped by a sadistic predator who happened to be my Father was nothing to being jumped by you".

If ever there was a case where the press needed to butt out it's this one. My curiosity can go unanswered.

You have demonstrated a wonderful empathy with this case Speakeasy. I've enjoyed reading your perceptive human response to what Elizabeth has gone through.

Take it easy with taking on everyone's response to what you went through. That's for them to deal with.

amiablehermit, your reply to Christine's post was profound. I keep reading it over.

Speakeasy42
03 June 2008 at 07:39

Reguarding my question of "what would you do?"

Please go over the comment again and understand that I was asking you to imagine for a moment the life of Elizabeth's oldest son, who is 18, and has never met a soul in his life.

I wasn't referring to Elizabeth herself.

My attempt was to try, (impossible I realize) to look at what he may be going through.

I'll bet that the entire Fritzl family hopes that we would all just go away. Thier rehab depends on it.

Miss Carpenter talks about the extreme guilt that victims like Elizabeth deal with when coming to grips with thier ordeal. Elizabeth is probably (don't know fer sure....) feeling responsible, and feeling like "the cause" of all this media bombardment, and chaos.

How is that helping her?

The longer Elizabeth and her family are in the spotlight the longer in takes for them to start over.

To Strawberry: No offense taken at all! And I realize it may look like I really stuck my neck out. But please don't worry about me takin' on the world. I'll be fine......

To aimiablehermit: I agree with Strawberry when she refers to your comments. I've read them all, I especially like your comment about Elizabeth's mother back on the 22nd. But, I'm a little perplexed about your response to my post about "what would you do?". Your reference to the parasal and "strolling away" left me wondering what you meant? I wonder if you would care to elaborate on what you were trying to say.

graham
03 June 2008 at 10:42

speakeasy42 - very interesting and thought provoking posts, thanks.

I understand what you say about retribution and the needs of Elisabeth and her family and how they might attain some semblance of normality in their lives from now on - you make the point (Im sure you are right) that the perverted "father" is not a priority of Elisabeth at the moment and she - and probably the pschyiatrists - would not want to bring him up just yet, although at some point she will need to be interviewed to try to picture the full extent of this mans mania.

My point about the father is that for society and victims of abuse like this the nasty word revenge is important - people feel that killers ruin lives and then have all the care in the world untill they are released from prison and then can start new lives - while their victims suffer in silence. I am all for redemption and new starts in life but there are situations where that is impossible. Example myra hindley and ian brady - the lunatic catholic church man lord longford said myra was a "fine woman", that she should be released - her lawyers argued the civil rights case on her behalf stating that she had already spent more time in jail than most murderers. The fact that ian brady wouldnt have been able to rape and murder 5 children without myras help and complicity seems to be overlooked, she procured children who felt safe with her and trusted her for her boyfriend to rape, humiliate, scare senseless and finally tirture and murder - this woman then became a "fine" woman. Peter Sutcliffe, a serial hiller who killed and mutilated 13 women has lawyers trying to get him released because of the human rights act.

My point is that these monsters are driven by their own needs to the exclusion of everything else so therefore will take any advantage society throws them to say they should be released - josef fritzl is totally cruel and utterly self centred and will do or say anything to further what he wants at any moment in time. --- back to my point, society has so called morals and part of the moral agender is to look after everyones civil and human rights without prejudice (even if that person is a serial killer or a josef fritzl) - this is nonsense, as long as we treat everyone the same despite what they have done these evil men will continue to take advantage of the world they live in for their own self gratification. Elisabeth, at some point in the future might well take some comfort knowing that her awfull father is lonely, hated, in isolation in prison and miserable - just like she was all those incredible years. I would never make any comment suggesting I have any idea whatsoever what or how Elisabeth might be feeling, I think that she is probably so traumatised by what happened to her, her self esteem non existent and so fearfull that reality hasnt hit yet - a theory supported by the police not being able to interview her about what happened due to her being too ill to talk about it.

kathryn
03 June 2008 at 19:42

I've been thinking about all the people Elisabeth Fritzl's case is affecting. There are those of us who are outsiders looking in, who feel impacted by her ordeal and the ordeals of her children, even though we don't know them. Then there are those closer to her who are devastated on a far greater level. I'm not talking about her mother or the three "upstairs children"... I'm thinking about Elisabeth Fritzl's aunts, uncles and cousin... and especially her six siblings, the kids she grew up with, who have all left home and started lives of their own with partners or spouses... It's hard to imagine the impact Elisabeth's emergence from the cellar prison with Felix, Stefan and Kerstin, is having on the extended family. The excitement, disbelief, horror, grief, awe, shock and guilt must be immense. They, too, apparently, are being hounded by the press. It must be terrible for them to have unwittingly become part of this story and have their lives turned upside down. And yet everyone can't just disappear with new identities, can they? Should they? How would it work??! What about their jobs, schools, in-laws, friends, homes?? We all have worked hard, these last 24 years, building adult lives for ourselves in the world. To what extent do we give them up in response to media-hounding?

amiablehermit
03 June 2008 at 22:55

In earlier posts I commented on the vulturous press. It is incredibly ironic that when a little bit of curiosity might have done some good, no one was asking questions, but now that real damage can be done, the media can't keep away, thereby further victimizing the victims.

Speakeasy42: Let me clarify. If I had been abused and imprisoned in a cellar for 24 years , I think that I might be rather leary of the power of the sun for a good while. A parasol is, of course, a portable sunshade. I know it seems quaint, but I actually use one on occasion since I am sensitive to the sun. My parasol is dark green and has a fairly sturdy tip at the top, which can double as a handy threat to overly nosy members of the press corps who ask stupid questions and don't know when to mind their own business. On the other hand, thrashing the meddling media with parasol might leave one open to assault charges, so I think I would shield myself from both the sun and the prying attention of the media with my trusty parasol and refuse to dignify a stupid and impertinent question from a stranger by anything but a snide remark. I would then stroll away without further comment, knowing that if a reporter had the audacity to try to accost me again, my parasol has more of a point to it than just acting as a shield from the sun.

That is what I would do.

amiablehermit
03 June 2008 at 23:07

Sorry about the typo -- leery, not leary -- no Shakespeare here.

And not to ignore you, Strawberry. I don't know how profound my comment was, but if it resonates with you, then I am glad to have shared my perspective of boxes and imperfect worlds.

Strawberry
04 June 2008 at 07:53

From the point of view of the son. I imagine if it was your first time outside your environment would feel enormous and the experience would overwhelm all your senses. From this place, when one would already be in a state of feeling overwhelmed, taking in the world, the last thing you would need is the focus drawn back onto you in the form of a camera being pointed at you. It would phase you, possibly terrify you and make you feel as though the world was not a safe place.

I believe the world helped Elizabeth and family when they sent them their good wishes in the form of cards and presents, letting them know kindness and goodwill exists in the world. They don't however need the prying eyes of camera lenses now.

graham
04 June 2008 at 13:36

heard today that fritzl the pervert is getting some fan mail - from women. I shouldnt be surpised as ted bundy was very popular whilst on death row in america and actually got married. Peter Sutcliffe is also very popular with women and he has more mail than any other prisoner in UK.

I mention this because, yet again, this shows the extent of delusion some people live with, to think fritzl is a good man who only wanted to do his best for his daughter is insulting, bizarre, mad, insane and beyond believability even in the bonkers world some seem to inhabit. No-one here seems interested in moving away from pseudo religious "insights", forgiveness and general banter about Elisabeth and the family. Is no-one interested in retribution, in an offender so evil that what he did stretches the bounds of credulity - does no-one feel that perps of crimes as serious as this should be held to account or should we all just move on and forgive....I dont think some on this forum has the first understanding about the real world we all live in and the extreme lengths some people will go to to gratify themselves. What about the young man who fancied the beautifull, intelligent daughter of his next door neighbours family - she, unfortuneately for him, didnt fancy him although they had known each other since childhood she only looked on him as a friend...so, ofcourse, he killed her and then made a half arsed attempt to "kill" himself...after phoning the ambulance service. He is being consoled and will recover, meet a nutty woman who goes for killers and live happily ever after secure in the knowledge that no other man will be able to have the girl he killed. I could go on with thousands of examples of the same thing - I work in the criminal justice system and the cases Ive outlines are by nio means untypical.

Back to fritzl, he knew what he was doing, he did it to satisfy any "desires" he harboured, he didnt care about the great unimaginable harm he was doing and he is sad now only because he was caught. Dont people here think a man so beyond human feeling should be punished and not try to understand him. Fritzl is the story here and the liberal "elite" who would seek to protect him, pity no-one was around to protect his victims.

duyum
04 June 2008 at 20:41

graham 04 June 2008 at 13:36 said:

''Dont people here think a man so beyond human feeling should be punished and not try to understand him. ''

I personally believe that it is imperative that we not only TRY to understand him, but that we actually DO understand him.

Why?

Understanding Joseph Fritzl may do nothing in terms of retribution and helping Elisabeth Fritzl and her family overcome the trauma experienced throughout their lives. It may, however, help in preventing other 'Joseph Fritzl's from developing and/or going unseen.

What are the conditions under which a 'Joseph Fritzl' is created? He was, after all, born as innocent a baby as the rest of us. What was it that changed an innocent baby into such a destructive adult? Was he born without the ability to feel love, sadness, loneliness, fear, compassion and all those other feelings most of us take for granted or were all those feelings somehow taken out of him at some point during his lifetime? If so, how is it that this can happen and how accountable can such a person be held? These are some of the questions that I believe need to be answered in order to prevent other 'Joseph Fritzl's from being created.

As for punishment, yes he should be punished. The greatest punishment might be for him to UNDERSTAND exactly what he has done and to actually FEEL the impact of his actions on everybody. Unfortunately, I'm not sure that he has the capacity for such understanding and/or feeling.

Does this mean he did not know that his actions were wrong? No. I reckon he knew his actions were wrong. I'm just not sure he understands why they were wrong. I doubt very much that he can empathise with his 'victims' ( I don't like the word 'victim' much as I believe it somehow takes away the power and dignity of those it is intended to describe, as does 'pity') either. I don't know how it would be possible for someone to feel the pain of someone else and continue to inflict that pain upon them. Unless perhaps they were doing it to punish someone. Whether the person being punished is the person they are inflicting pain on at that moment, or a person from their past who at some point inflicted pain on them, is another matter. Or perhaps the pain and trauma suffered in their own lives has totally de-sensitised them, to the point where they are incapable of sympathysing or empathysing with anyone.

Reading some of the posts here and on other sites, has made me realise just how capable we are all of turning into 'Joseph Fritzl's. Not neccessarily in terms of locking our children in dungeons, raping them and fathering/mothering their offspring, but in terms of being incapable/unwilling to comprehend the results of our (intended)actions and the inability to feel the impact of our (intended) actions on another human being. Some of the comments made, seem to insinuate that the writers would gain some sort of pleasure from any type of cruelty and pain Joseph Fritzl is made to suffer. This to me is chilling because I see a 'Joseph Fritzl' in their words - gaining pleasure from the pain of others - chilling.

Understanding Joseph Fritzl may help prevent other 'Joseph Fritzl's being created or going unseen - even within ourselves. Understanding him, may provide us with better knowledge of ourselves and empower us to make different... better... choices.

graham
05 June 2008 at 09:46

Duyum - I read your post with interst, I have to say that I cant agree with your conclusions. Josef Fritzl is a classic narcissistic sociopath - the mental disorder of not feeling empathy with others, being unemotional and cold that helps to create a being like him is present in many people - 99.999999% of those people dont give in to it and dont inflict their "desires" on others. There is practically nothing to learn from josef fritzl - he is so bland and obvious all that needs to be known about him is already out in the open. Your post seems to suggest to me that you think he is a complicated character - no he isnt, he spent 30 years with one solitary goal in miond and that was to imprison his daughter and rape her - to use her as his personal sex slave. That he is obsessed by sex with children and young girls is not in question, that he is totally self obsessed and an egomaniac is also beyond question. What is so interesting about a pathetic, unpleasant, tyranical and in other ways ordinary man so interesting that we need to study him. He has probably always been a sad, obsessive creature who concentrated his whole being on pleasing himself -

the sheer enormity of what he did to his daughter - dont forget even after 5 weeks or more she still cant be interviewed by police about her "life" in the cellar - she must be so traumatised that reliving her ordeal might even kill her - if that happened does anyone think fritzl would be upset...

Im sorry but your comment that some people posting here that suggest fritzl suffer like he made others suffer are like him is clearly and quite obviously absurd on so many levels I cant be bothered to go into that comment any further.

can we all get this liberal nonsense out in the open - many people think nowdays that monsters like fritzl should be treated with sympathy and that he is a victim - I bet fritzl himself agress with that. fritzl doesnt deserve any understanding or excuses made for him - he is a human mutation of extreme proporsions - he is a weak, dull and pathetic old man who spent his life terrorising his children, his wife and grandchildren - he did that because he is inadequate in life dealing with people in an uncontrolled world so he took out his angst at being a nobody on his family, expecially Elisabeth.

all the understanding necessary about fritzl is that he is a bully who wanted to create a perverted paradise for himself - does anyone here really believe he would ever have let Elisabeth and her children free if kerstin hadnt become ill - oh by the way the reason he released her to go to hospital is so obvious Im surprised no-one has mentioned it. He took her to hospital because she was his main means of controlling Elisabeth and if he let her die Elisabeth would probably have killed herself or become totally unco-operative. In short, this "fantastic" man even in the end only took kerstin to hospital because he had no choice and not because he had any intention of looking after her - he only ever throughout his whole life thouhgt/thinks about his own weird and sick perverted needs. Dont even bother to try to understand him.

One last thought - myra hundlet the moors murderer, I wonder if yoou think she should have been helped to get a life together outside of prison. I remember speaking to a woman who was a prison officer "looking after" hindley. she told me about the "beautifull" gay marriage of 2 inmates where hindley was a bridegroom ! what a picture of a woman who procured children for rape, torture and death now being a bridegroom at a gay wedding in a prison....do gooders are ruining the society they live in by rewarding and comforting scum like hindley - and in this case fritzl who in life is a really nasty, weak, pathetic and pointless individual...

graham
05 June 2008 at 12:27

footnote :- Elisabeth is so traumatised by the torture she was subjected to by her pointless "father" that she cant yet be interviewed about her "life" in a cellar. Suffering indignity, rape and hopelessness day after day for 24 years (and before that being raped by this "man") she is so mentally and in every other way destroyed by fritzl that it is hardly possible to try to even think about how she must feel. I read an article where a woman got annoyed that fritzl was not being respected as being the father of the children and elisabeth only was referred to as their mother - now to me that attitude is blindingly bizarre - evidently there are women who think that the systematic rape of your daughter is not grounds for you as a father to be disrespected because - after all - you are the father arent you. It is the attitude of some writers here that I can see are always looking to excuse and "save" wrong doers and see no difference between crimes. What with love letters to fritzl I give up...

Rush
05 June 2008 at 14:09

My comments on every site that I posted so far are to tell the Austrian authorities to start with the torture for what this SOB did to his daughter. I want to see him suffer for long and then die and further burn in hell. Its a miracle how she did not go insane in the cellar, and who know his expansion of the cellar with all the other hidden rooms inside maybe graveyard, just in case one of them died and then maybe later to get the other girls from upstairs into the cellar and do the same what he did to Elisabeth. The B*tard better confess or pls start with the torture if he does not.

kathryn
05 June 2008 at 17:19

A society or government that tortures prisoners, no matter how heinous their crimes,is no better than the criminals they hope to punish. The best punishment for an egomaniac sociopath is to lock him away with only the basic prison regimen; and never let him know another thing about his family. Do not let him receive fan mail! He must never see or hear from Elisabeth or the others again. He must live the rest of his life in prison, kept mostly separate from the other prisoners. The end. Let God deal with his crimes and instead of expending any single further thought for or iota of energy on this man who does not deserve it, let people focus on providing Elisabeth and her family with all means possible to allow healing. SHE and her children should be the focus of any relief efforts--not Josef Fritzl.

David
06 June 2008 at 00:28

just one of my many questions: what if the 'alleged' person seen helping JF bring in food had been Elizabeth herself... I am not saying it was, but if the claim is true, that someone was seen, then who are we to judge the rightness of what was seen... were we there... do we know the circumstances of how it was seen... NO... the witness has not been tested, and the evidence not seen... it is hearsay, for now, at best...

we know so little of this case, that I hesitate to blame or exonerate anyone, other than the monster himself... it will be years or decades, if ever, that we get to hear the true or full story... and even then, how to compress 31(or will it be found out to be 42) years of abuse into a book or movie... (we only have to look at the Anne Frank diaries and their editing and re-editing by her relatives)

little wonder, that in the past, events like this became fairy tales or legends to scare children into behaving... it is only in the past 2 centuries that Rapunzel was rescued by her prince, Sleeping Beauty woken with a kiss, The Beauty rescues her Beast, and Little Red Riding Hood saved by the good wood chopper... from monsters like JF... all sanitized by the Grimm brothers, and then sanitized further by the Americans...

I have contemplated doing a blog post on my own blog, ripping apart the veil covering the depravity of men towards women, over the 90,000 years of our existence as a thinking species, and the complicity of women in it, but to what purpose... to take away the innocence of people like those I have seen commentating on this case, here and elsewhere; to expose to the prurient gaze, of the already depraved, to the greater excesses possible... and the only appropriate conclusion which can be reached at it's end, that we are a flawed species, fit for elimination... or bombing back into the pre-stone age

'let he who is without sin cast the first stone' t'is the IDEAL, but to which I reply, 'to him or her with the least conscience, gets to go first'... THIS is the REALITY of our so called humanity... FORGIVENESS and RECONCILIATION an illusion, and CRY VENGEANCE the motto of the DAY... just check the responses to the news reports on www.ALLAFRICA.com regarding Zimbabwe... and know that I am speaking truth, that this is only one country out of hundreds around the globe that have and are experiencing this level of violence against innocence in the 60 years of just my own existence... by what right do we have to claim that we are the height of creation and the LOVE of the Gods or God... when we display such utter depravity, and wanton disregard for others lives, for our own self interests and entertainment...

amiablehermit
06 June 2008 at 06:07

We humans are capable of great heights as well as great depths -- and a whole lot in between. One of the things that is interesting to me about this situation is that it appears to give us exactly these extremes -- Elizabeth (and her children) on the one hand, and her father on the other.

I think David is good to bring up faerie tales here, since they are archetypical, and this actual situation fits the archetypes to an astonishing degree. I really think that is one reason why so many of us have such powerful reactions here, because we recognize and react strongly to those archetypes, having them hot-wired in us. I have found myself thinking of "Bluebeard" when reading about Josef Fritzl, for example.

There is a certain unreality to this crime (or cluster of crimes) that I think quite literally puts us in a state of shock, so it is logical that it would seem fantastical. It defies our ability to comprehend, and while I can see how duyum believes we ought to try to understand a depraved person, I have to agree with graham that it is ultimately pointless, if not impossible. There are so many reasons why such people might not be recognized for being what they are, and trying to predict anyone's behavior I think is fruitless and sometimes dangerous in itself.

But I think it is a mistake to paint all humanity with a broad brush when focusing on any extremes. The banal selfishness we ordinarily encounter from our fellows hardly warrants the doomsday bomb, just as a simple gesture of courtesy does not commend itself for the peace prize.

kathryn
06 June 2008 at 19:51

Amiablehermit, I appreciate your take on the Fritzl case. You write with clarity and compassion. There are several voices in this conversation which really resonate with me, and I find myself thinking about your posts during the day... Elisabeth Fritzl's tragedy is so overwhelming to so many; it is an archetypal story and touches us on so many levels. We all need to be careful not to forget the real flesh and blood family, As a writer myself (of mysteries!) I tend to look at life as a story, with chapters . . . My prayers are that Elisabeth's story is nowhere near over, and that she will have many, many long, much happier chapters left.

amiablehermit
07 June 2008 at 03:45

One thing I think we have been skirting around here is the notion that we, as observers of this horrific scenario, are challenged psychologically ourselves, just in terms of coming to realize and accept that such heinous behavior is a part of the reality of the world. I am not suggesting that we need to rush out to therapists to figure out how to assimilate the information into our world views, but I am saying that we may well need to reassess a lot in our lives to accommodate the knowledge that these things happen. I think this is particularly difficult when we have children who have questions about how people in the world behave, especailly when they demonstrate themselves to be abominations.

It is not within our competence, I think, to imagine what sort of counseling Elizabeth and her children are experiencing, although there is nothing in what I have read so far that indicates anything but the most concerned and cautious care. But this whole affair has a rippling effect, spanning out to the rest of us, some of whom here have their own nightmare stories, such as Speakeasy42, who may be able to experience some therapeutic catharsis or who may be further traumatized by the reminder; that all depends on the person.

For me, there is much that is cautionary in this revelation, although as I have intimated, I do not see any cause for paranoia about one's neighbors necessitated as a consequence of learning about the Fritzl case. However, I do think we need to consider how much courage we are prepared to display when we encounter bullies in our lives, because it is quite clear, at least to me, that JF was such a type, and probably rarely found anyone willing to face him down, but more often encountered folks who didn't think it worth the aggravation to get into a confrontation with him. Bullies must have their hands called. It is the only thing that gets their attention.

kathryn: Thank you for your thoughts. If I have clarity, I think it is because I am a "hermit"; and if I seem compassionate, it is because I believe one can afford to be "amiable" to others when sequestering, since you are giving yourself more than the average amount of personal space, which I think is rare these days. Unlike you, I am not a writer. I spend my days packing boxes and looking after an elderly mother. But I have done other things in the past, and I have known a lot of different sorts of people, experienced many unusual situations, observed a great deal, and had an excellent classical education. My reaction to the world is to be an "amiable hermit" and make what sense of life as I can, and remember that all of us by the the sheer living of lives, make our statement about it just by being ourselves.

ddebbyo
07 June 2008 at 04:24

I’m almost afraid to say it but PlanetStarbucks post really made me think. Why am I obsessed with this story? Of course, it’s shock and compassion and all the other good things about humanity that make us care about what happens to other people. But I think she was free to decide. But we don't know that for sure. It's that moral ambiguity we can't deal with as easily.

ddebbyo
07 June 2008 at 04:26

I’m almost afraid to say it but PlanetStarbucks post really made me think. Why am I obsessed with this story? Of course, it’s shock and compassion and all the other good things about humanity that make us care about what happens to other people. But I think it’s something else, too (at least for me). Sometimes it’s hard to believe in evil. Sometimes it’s hard to believe in your own innocence. Sometimes we need a clear-cut story that says “This is definitely evil” and “This is definitely innocence”. It convinces us, when we are insecure about ourselves, that such a thing as innocence exists. I come from a family where you were not allowed to express a different opinion without being called bad, mentally ill or even evil (which is why I am a little afraid to defend a poster who no one seems to agree with). This has led me to feel insecure about my own goodness. Stories like this convince me that there is such a thing as innocence and evil. Stories like this tap into our fear of moral ambiguities and questions about our own goodness. Sometimes we need extreme stories to tell us that at least somewhere this is very clear-cut. It’s emotionally satisfying at some deep level, even though we are abhorred and repulsed by the crime. I’ve had nightmares about this since I first heard about it. But I am convinced that he is evil. And that somehow is a relief. Evil does exist. So does innocence. It’s just so hard to know this for sure in most other situations. I think that is why people have reacted to Starbucks. They feel he is insinuating that they are on the side of evil, and just a voyeur to this story for their own kicks. I don’t think that’s what he meant. I think he was trying to look at why we are obsessed with this story in a complex way. I don’t feel his language was condescending or attacking. I think he was trying to say something complex and confronting about human nature. Something we don’t want to hear because we want to believe that our reaction to this story demonstrates our goodness. Yes, it does. But it doesn’t let us off the hook when it comes to our reaction about more morally ambiguous stories. Like our reaction to Rosemary, the mother, for example. As a mother we feel she should have protected her child. As bystanders, we wonder how much we should be doing for abused people. As children, we are angry about our powerlessness. This story is like a Grimm’s fairytale (as another poster has noted).

ddebbyo
07 June 2008 at 04:31

Sorry about the double posting error: My first post cut out all my middle argument and second post cut off the end, which is this:

While we are certain he is evil and Elisabeth is innocent, we are ambigious about the mother, Rosemary. We because she was in a dungeon, she was free to decide. But we don't know that for sure. It's that moral ambiguity we can't deal with as easily.

ddebbyo
07 June 2008 at 04:33

Jeebus, I should just give up!!! Thir last sentence should have read " Because she was NOT in a dungeon".

Deepest apologies, my server cut off in the middle of writing.

Strawberry
07 June 2008 at 06:00

"However, I do think we need to consider how much courage we are prepared to display when we encounter bullies in our lives, because it is quite clear, at least to me, that JF was such a type, and probably rarely found anyone willing to face him down, but more often encountered folks who didn't think it worth the aggravation to get into a confrontation with him. Bullies must have their hands called. It is the only thing that gets their attention."

This is an important one and I guess hand in hand with this is the need to know there are times to trust an instinct to investigate something for yourself as opposed to believe what someone is telling you. Personally I get more satisfaction out of Fritzl having been stood up to by the Dr who intervened, not believing his story, than I do from the thought that Fritzl is now in jail, isolated and receiving taunts from other prisoners. Not that that thought bothers me either but it's the thought that he was stood up to for once that is really satisfying.

Perhaps this story brings out a feeling of powerlessness in us all. That really something ought to have been able to have been done a lot earlier. Elizabeth was not able to leave of her own free volition; however she was able to leave to join a cult. Fritzl was able to control the whole thing. I remember reading, a school friend of Elizabeth's at a school reunion saying, "there's no way Elizabeth would have joined a cult, there was no way". How incredibly important this thought was. How do you act on a thought?

amiablehermit
07 June 2008 at 06:44

Oh, please. Can we give it up about PlantStarbucks who seems to have vaished form this post anyway? She set the tone of defensivenes here being the very first post, and everyone seems to have a hard time letting that go. It was nonsense. I don't know about the sensitivities elsewhere, but the whole class crap falls more or less on deaf ears here in the US. "Middle Class Fetishism" sounds to us like so much balloney as to be easily ignored. And her friend Robbie was a buffoon. Let's be real about those people. They were not interested in encouraging a dialogue among people who actually felt something about this article: no, they wanted to make us feel ashamed and inadequate talking about it at all, as though their higher moral superiority allowed them to judge the rest of us pitiable plebians. See them for what they are.

I can't see that there is any question, really, about the existence of evil Unless, of course you are one of the fortunate few who has never seen it in its atrocious glory. Most of us experience it in its more pedestrian modes, and so have, perhaps, a harder time being stunned when it manifests itself in its fuller forms.

These events unfolded as they did. We cannot really dwell on what "might have been if". They are what they are. As for the future, and for us, well, that is a matter of what we choose to learn from this and how we choose to be as a result . For me, it is not a problem. I chose to embarass a neighbor about her daughter because the girl was rather loud in her protests about misbehaving. I would do it all again. And the neighbor thanked me for caring enough to look into it. You have to decide for yourself when to stick your nose into what ever you feel may be wrong.

David
07 June 2008 at 08:38

Kathryn, I just read that it may be 2 years before the Austrians are able to bring to trial this case... as well a bit of news about Kerstin, and the paparazzi... http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=575892 a short but interesting article...

Amiablehermit, My point in writing what I did, was that as as species we are flawed... that there is some good is of no question... but does the good that we see out weigh the bad... I am not as optimistic that it does... especially in our treatment of women... graded just on that point alone, we fail abysmally; http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=576505 and this article is a tip of the iceberg, as is said...

amiablehermit
07 June 2008 at 19:31

David: I understood your point. So what if we are flawed? And as far as "weighing" good and evil goes, I am not sure if we can ever really have a comprehensive enough view of both to operate the scales correctly. We often hear far more about acts of evil than about acts of virtue, especially in these days of negative media. Besides, the assessment is bound to be subjective.

The practice discussed in the link you gave is something about which I am aware. But this does fall into the category of cultural customs, and is a whole separate topic. Had these people grown up in another part of the world where female circumcision is not a part of the culture, it would no doubt be a nonissue.

I once saved a neighbor's life. About ten people knew about that until now -- some of whom I am sure do not even know my name. The next day, all was back to normal and has been ever since, which, in my estimation is as it should be. But how does that rate on this scale of measurement?

I also think of my father when you bring up treatment of women in this world. He was a strong, sweet, generous person who cared for his family with gentleness and kindness. He was always quick to give of himself to help another person, and he was affectionate and funny. My mother is a handful, and she does not suffer fools. And my father loved her for that. My point here is, to go back to the broad brush, we cannot make these sweeping statements about "the world" or "the species" and hope to be able to understand how it really is with us as a whole. Who is to say that my father isn't more representative of the gender? He made the news because of military service, not because of how he treated women or how he lived his life. What we focus on largely determines what we find out.

David
08 June 2008 at 19:02

Amiablehermit,

You are right, if I read you, that it is a negative view of the world that I filter my world view from... garnered from a rather negative up bringing... my origins are English,(living in Canada) and both my parent's families of military background... I cannot say the same for them as I can for your parents... I would say, you were most fortunate... we grew up more along the lines of the Von Trapp family... if that is any help... while we didn't have individual calls and parade ground... (there were only 3 of us) dad did whistle us with a distinctive call, and if we were called by either parent, god protect us if we didn't jump to it, dropping whatever we were doing... punishment was meted out swiftly and forcefully... I can appreciate what the Fritzl children went through...

however, as I read the news article, it appears that the people were living in Europe, and when necessary, traveling to Africa, for the "surgery"... this is the illegal aspect of it...

I have seen similar practices here, of peoples who practice multi and forced marriages, sending their daughters to the 'home' country... often having been born here, and of an age to know their own mind... but because of family pressure sent back... there are cases I know about first hand... thankfully I don't know of any honour killings over this, other than in the news... and they are plentiful enough...

in sum, it would appear that you have HOPE, while I have DESPAIR... my mother had a saying, Live in Hope, Die in Despair... while I breath, I will hope along with you for the Fritzls and pray for Kerstin... the best I can do at present...

amiablehermit
08 June 2008 at 19:52

David: I have certainly had my moments -- my life has not been a smooth ride by any stretch of the imagination, although my nightmare situations have been more in dealing with the workplace and with a number of unpleasant social and personal encounters over the years. Familial abuse, I think, is simply horrific, affecting as it does the core of your life. Abuse inflicted by other people is still abuse, and leaves its own special sort of scars.

Nevertheless, we are left with some choices. Some of those choices involve how one responds to the behavior of others. A little righteous indignation is a good thing to have sometimes. Other choices include selecting supportive company instead of hanging out with drama queens, control freaks, and assorted malcontents. Another thing is to be benevolently skeptical with people, thereby avoiding a whole host of difficulties. That usually involves having a sense of humor, sometimes with a good dose of sarcasm.

You didn't select your parents, nor do you have to approve of their treatment of you, but you do need to find your way to transcending their behavior toward you. In this, I suppose we may eventually learn something from Elizabeth, if she is ever inclined to discuss it.

As for all the cruel customs of various cultures, there is not much that can be done until those cultures themselves repudiate those customs. That is complicated and takes time and the influence of exposure to a larger world over a period of generations. The customs were instituted eons ago and have been practiced unceasingly since. It is not realistic to expect that they would vanish in the short span of time that we have become "a global community", which has its own drawbacks, too.

amiablehermit
08 June 2008 at 21:03

i want to make a statement about a new development. As many of you already know, it is now being reported that Josef Fritzl has some sort of heart condition and may die beforehe stands trial. At any rate, he may die in prison. I think that this is as it should be, provided that he never gains access to his family again. Watching videos of their testimony against him is fine. He should watch those. And it looks as though that will happen, too. But given that Elizabeth never wants to see her father again, I believe it is important to honor that condition she made when first interviewed by the police, and let him die unable to torment her further.

Strawberry
09 June 2008 at 03:22

On the subject of cruel customs of other cultures. I look to the practise of foot binding in China no longer taking place as an example that change can happen.

I hope the video testimonials Elizabeth will give against Fritzl; that he will view without her needing to see him would be empowering for her.

amiablehermit
09 June 2008 at 03:48

Yes. foot-binding is an excellent example. And things do change in the fullness of time.

My understanding of the article that I read is that Elizabeth is almost at the point where she is strong enough to give testimony and that her father will only be able to witness it through video. Stefan and Felix will also be called upon at a later date to testify, I think under the same circumstances.

kathryn
09 June 2008 at 19:49

As I went on my morning run, I was once again thinking of Elisabeth Fritzl . . . wondering how those kept captive in the cellar would have been able to maintain any degree of health for so many years. The human body is meant to MOVE. I want to cry when I think about her and the children unable to run or dance or, really, exercise at all. And yet perhaps they did, in a limited fashion, in order to maintain their health. Of course the psychological damage and mental cruelty they endured take precedence on a list of Josef Fritzl's crimes, right along with thephysical crimes of rape and childbearing, but lack of exercise--certainly causing cardio damage--and lack of oxygen are separate crimes to be held against this man. Of course Elisabeth Fritzl must never see her father again, and she shouldn't have to hear his response to her testimony against him, either. I hope he does die in prison, and soon. It might give her some degree of peace.

duyum
12 June 2008 at 01:12

graham 05 June 2008 at 09:46 said :

"What is so interesting about a pathetic, unpleasant, tyranical and in other ways ordinary man so interesting that we need to study him. He has probably always been a sad, obsessive creature who concentrated his whole being on pleasing himself"

What is interesting to me about such a person (whether it be Fritzl or anyone else like him), is WHY they are that way. Calling him 'evil' or the like, just doesn't answer that question for me.

Yes, the things he did to his family were vile, but what would turn an innocent baby into someone who would do such things? That is one of the many questions that I feel the need to find an answer to. Some of the others are - Was 'the baby Joseph Fritzl', and are other 'baby Joseph Fritzl's, innocent or evil? Is the capacity to do such cruel things the result of genetics, physical/chemical mutations/trauma, or the result of nurturing? If it is as a result of any or all of those things, how accountable can/should they be held?i.e. if the urge to do cruel things is ingrained in their very being from conception or is conditioned into them there after, if they have very little or no choice in the matter?

Though I don't know how qualified you are to make such a diagnosis, your response that "Josef Fritzl is a classic narcissistic sociopath - the mental disorder of not feeling empathy with others, being unemotional and cold that helps to create a being like him" helped in my search for an answer - though I still do not have a complete answer and the more I search, the more questions I encounter which need answering.

If your diagnosis is correct (as may very well be the case, as reports of J. Fritzl's behaviour and the behaviour of those people with narcissistic personality disorder and psychopathy personality disorder seem to me to show a fair bit of similarity), as both these conditions are mental disorders, you may have found a legal defence for Joseph Fritzl.

I looked up the words 'narcissism and 'sociopathology' on the net and found some interesting results. Narcissism seems to be an 'ingrained personality trait' resulting from poor nurturing, whilst 'significant evidence' seems to suggest that Psycopathic personality disorder may be a result of genetics (perhaps once having a 'survival of the species value') or a different funtioning of the brain, (I think some of you might find the the results interesting too (mostly found in wikepedia) so I will share some of it with you at the end of this ...though don't know how reliable any of it is).

The thought of what this, the possibility that Joseph Fritzl has narsisistic personality disorder and psycopathic personality disorder and that these are related to genetics and upbringing, could mean to Elisabeth Fritzl and her children is to me, both disturbing and thought provoking. It may help Elisabeth Fritzl in understanding what happened to her all those years and coming to terms with the fact that it was as a result of a man with a very VERY sick mind, that it was in no way her fault and she had very little (if any)options under the circumstances but to submit to his will. Understanding may help her heal. But then again, may cause her great pain too. After all, her children have a double dose of the 'Joseph Fritzl' genes. They were also subjected to very traumatic experiences from birth- being imprisoned by their father and observing their mother being raped by her/their father for years on end. They have both nature and nurture going against them. It is then quite possible that they may exhibit similar or same behaviour, is it not? If they did, would this then make them 'evil' and deserving of torture and great suffering too?

Further, what will torturing Joseph Fritzl and those like him do in the way of healing Elisabeth Fritzl and others who have suffered in the hands of such people? Will it wipe away all the pain and suffering they have had to endure in the past and are likely to continue to endure in the furture, without playing on their conscience and causing them more suffering? Or, will it only serve to satisfy the primal bloodlust of some observers (such as ourselves), for a period of time - until the next prey comes along?

Whilst searching for answers to the many questions in my head, born from the Fritzl case, I discovered things such as 'pluristic ignorance', 'the bystander effect', 'the Milgram experiment' and 'The Stanford Prison Experiment' which have helped in answering some of those questions. It seems that the behaviour of the family, friends, neighbours who chose to do nothing even when their instincts told them something was wrong, can be explained. What I haven't yet been able to find an answer to, is the question that has been in my mind the most since first reading about this case, and that is, 'Why am I so fascinated with this particular case?'. The only other time I have felt the need to find out more has been in the Natascha Kampusch case, but even that wasn't to this degree (and was forgotten until this case). The more posts I read, the more I realise that I am not alone. Many people from many parts of the world seem to be fascinated with it and ask the question 'why is this so?'.

The one person (on this or other forums I have visited) who has asked this question of themselves (and us) and has given an answer which I find thought provoking, is PlanetStarbucks. Planetstarbucks (at 30 April 2008 at 14:45) assumes that it is 'fetishism developing with the dark underbelly of society' as a consequence of 'the relative calm and safety of middle class life'. Is it a fetish? Is it only those in the middle class who are obsessed with this case? I'm not so sure... but, my thoughts on the matter are similar to PlanetStarbucks other points (01 May 2008 at 09:41) where he/she suggests that: it is the storylike quality of this case that ascinates us, and "we need stories like this to remind us that we are good and they are evil. This story gives the reader the moral superiority that they seek, that they are not the monster and thankfully not the victim".

The more posts I read, the more I become uncomfotable with the fact that we feel the right within ourselves to intrude into the lives of these people, to assume that we might know an iota of how they feel or think, or how they might have or should have responded to a particular situation, or might or should respond to a given situation. We impose our thoughts and feelings onto them and feel justified in doing so. More so, we expect them to think and behave in a certain way. What if we are wrong? What if in the 24 years she spent in the dungeon, she came to terms with her lot in life? What if she turns around tomorrow and tells the world that she forgives Joseph Fritzl and doesn't want him punished? or perhaps that she was in some way complicit in the whole matter? Would our opinion of her change? To what degree? Would we throw stones at her too? Do we have the right to intrude so much into another persons life to the degree where we cause their imprisonment with our morbid curiosity? Is planetStarbucks really that wrong by calling this a 'fetish'?

It sometimes feels as though they are all fictional characters in a novel that we have all read and are discussing. I'm not sure that we really comprehend that they are real people with thoughts and feelings who may be very offended with their lives being publicised by the media and disected by the rest of us. We don't intend to cause them sorrow... but it is highly likely that we do... yet we do it anyway... and say that it is because we care... it seems to me that there is something very wrong with this. Very creepy... kind of like what Joseph Fritzl said - he was supposed to have imprisoned her to protect her, raped her though he knew it was wrong, and claims that he cared for her proven by the fact that he could have killed them all but didn't - like I said, there is something wrong with this...

But what do we do? Refraining from acting on the urge to read every little detail is easily done. But what happens to the many questions still lurking in our minds and the need to know that Elisabeth and her children are/will be all right? May they find peace...

duyum
12 June 2008 at 01:20

graham 05 June 2008 at 09:46 said:

"Im sorry but your comment that some people posting here that suggest fritzl suffer like he made others suffer are like him is clearly and quite obviously absurd on so many levels I cant be bothered to go into that comment any further"

duyum 04 June 2008 at 20:41 said:

"Some of the comments made, seem to insinuate that the writers would gain some sort of pleasure from any type of cruelty and pain Joseph Fritzl is made to suffer. This to me is chilling because I see a 'Joseph Fritzl' in their words - gaining pleasure from the pain of others - chilling."

I really do not understand what is so 'absurd' about this comment. Are you suggesting that pleasure gained from inflicting cruelty and pain on another human being is somehow justifiable/acceptable ? If so, this to me is chilling because I do not see a difference in the pleasure gained by Joseph Fritzl in his treatment of Elisabeth F. (justified(?)in his mind due to her 'rebellious' behaviour before she was placed in the dungeon) and the pleasure gained by otherwise 'average people' in their (intended) treatment of Joseph Fritzl (justified(?) by his treatment of Elisabeth F. etc). Pleasure gained by inflicting pain and suffering on another human being (or any

other living creature) is totally unacceptable to me, regardless of what they did. In my view there is no 'moral high ground' in gaining pleasure by inflicting cruelty on others. I really do not understand your reasoning. So, please do explain your comment as to why you find this 'clearly and quite obviously absurd on so many levels'? What levels?

Having said that, my initial response when I first heard about this case, was that Joseph Fritzl should be punished in the same way as he treated his captives. But this feeling was accompanied by the belief that to do so would be wrong. Thinking further on these conflicting notions, surfing the net and looking for answers, one conclusion I came to is that such strong feelings of hate and vengence etc. are probably very primal in nature. That is, they may be an intrinsic part of human nature which have helped in the survival of our species. But, they are not things I need in my life today to help me survive. In fact, the quality of my life is much better without such feelings, as is the person I am. So, I refuse to hold on to hate and vengence. I have felt better within since and am now trying to continue, in a more objective manner, to understand why it is that I and apparantly many many people all over the world are so fascinated with this case.

duyum
12 June 2008 at 01:21

FETISH :an irrational, or abnormal, fixation or preoccupation

FIXATION: A state of mind, involving obsession with a particular person, idea or thing.

OBSESSION : a compulsive or irrational preoccupation, an unhealthy fixation

Some of the Signs and Syptoms of NARCISSISTIC PERSONALITY DISORDER (NPD) are said to be:

- pervasive pattern of grandiosity

- need for admiration

- a lack of empathy

- is thought to lack proper (external) ego functioning

- beginning by early adulthood

- has a grandiose sense of self-importance

- is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

- believes that he or she is "special" and unique

- requires excessive admiration

- has a sense of entitlement

- is interpersonally exploitative

- is often envious of others or believes others are envious of him or her

- shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes

- controlling,

- blaming,

- self-absorbed,

- intolerant of others’ views,

- unaware of others' needs and of the effects of their behavior on others,

- and insistent that others see them as they wish to be seen.

- They may also demand certain behavior from their children because they see the children as extensions of themselves, and need the children to represent them in the world in ways that meet the parents’ emotional needs

- commonly feel rejected, humiliated and threatened when criticised. To protect themselves from these dangers,

they often react with disdain, rage, and/or defiance to any slight criticism, real or imagined . To avoid such

situations, some narcissistic people withdraw socially and may feign modesty or humility.

Some of the Causes of NPD:

- excessive praise and criticism in childhood, particularly that from parental figures...

- an impairment in the quality of the person's relationship with their primary caregivers, usually their parents, in that the parents were unable to form a healthy, empathic attachment to them.This results in the child conceiving of themselves as unimportant and unconnected to others. The child typically comes to believe that he or she has some defect of personality which makes them unvalued and unwanted

Some Effects of NPD for those diagnosed with it and often those who are in a relationship with them:

- isolating,

- disenfranchising,

- painful,

- formidable

- overly narcissistic parents can be very intrusive in some ways, and entirely neglectful in others. The children are punished if they do not respond adequately to the parents’ needs. This punishment may take a variety of forms, including physical abuse, angry outbursts, blame, attempts to instill guilt, emotional withdrawal, and criticism. Whatever form it takes, the purpose of the punishment is to enforce compliance with the parents' narcissistic needs

- The exploitativeness, sense of entitlement, lack of empathy, disregard for others, and constant need for

attention inherent in NPD adversely affect interpersonal relationships.

Treatment of NPD:

- Typically, as narcissism is an ingrained personality trait, rather than a chemical imbalance, medication and therapy are not very effective in treating the disorder.

kathryn
12 June 2008 at 19:09

Duyum, I agree with your assessment that vengeful thoughts of retaliation-in-kind for crimes committed is very primal. I agree that even when our first feelings on response are primal, it is far better not to give in to reacting on such a base/basic level, but to transcend those feelings. When possible! I believe that our treating Josef Friitzl as he treated Elisabeth would make us all as bad as he is. As I said earlier, I think his punishment awaits him later--in the grand scheme of things--and it is our job in the world/as a society simply to lock him away from people so he can never hurt anyone again OR see the people he hurt so deeply ever again. Beyond that: IGNORE THE BASTARD! (In the JudeoChristian tradition we have the Bible verse: 'Vengeance is mine,' saith the Lord,' and I like that. Leave his eternal damnation to God or the gods or whatever higher powers deal with such unspeakable crimes as his. It isn't worth our energy; Elisabeth is worth our energy! I am very pleased with the way the Austrian officials seem to be guarding her and her family's privacy. I am also elated--I'm sure we all are--that Kerstin has been reunited with her family and may, at long last, have a chance to experience the world.

howard
13 June 2008 at 10:52

duyum - you make a lot of assumptions about the possible array of emotions Elisabeth may feel - truth is none of us can know - you have written very eloquently about the narcissistic personality disorders and their manifestation(s), causes and long term behavioural consequences on others. It is the very fact that fritzl committed these absurd crimes against his family that seem to portray and coneiving, sinister, narcissistic and cruel pattern of dealing with others he feels he has control over.

I think the point made by - Graham - that the suggestion others who want him punished are guilty of a primeordal, uncivilised and unhealthy fixations with retribution and punishing men like fritzl is absurd on so many levels - is fair comment. There is a historical, genetic and evolutionary need within the human race for punishment of offenders - the idea all offenders - no matter how extraordinalrily cruel like fritzl they are - must be mentally ill and therefore somehow justified to be seen as vistims themselves (by the way, fritzl is proffering this idea in his defence - imagine he sees himself as a victim here) is, ofcourse, another manifestation of narcististic malaise and extreme obsessive need to self justify and see the world as a place to be exploited - incl everyone in it. fritzl dont forget is a sex maniac, an ugly nonentity of a man who aat 70+ wa parading around beaches with bathing costume designed for an 18 year old. Just because he is and was a pathetic man doesnt mean that what he did can be excused...at any level.

amiablehermit
14 June 2008 at 04:11

PlanetStarbucks kicked off this post with what amounts to an accusation that a fascination with this case amounts to a fetish and that this fetish is particularly apparent in middle class people (especially women, I gather) whose lives are so emotionally vacant that they crave the salacious to supplement their empty lives. This is evidenced at the grocery store when people look at tabloids.

My reaction to this is if the shoe fits, wear it, and if not, move on. There are certainly many other reasons to be interested in this case besides a thirst for sensationalism, and I don't think the interest needs to be justified anyway. In short, you don't need a reason.

One may be interested in croquet; another in forensic science. What matter?

Outrage over outrageous behavior is a reasonable response. People would like a balancing of the scales because it is that equilibrium that we instinctively seek -- symmetry is aesthetically hotwired in us, I believe. But for some things there is real no equalizing without risking an extreme as well, and that more or less creates a checkmate for us. We may say we think that so-and-so deserves such-and-such, but we would no more mete out those consquences ourselves that jump off a bridge. We rebel against the iniquity, which is appropriate, but contain ourselves, which is also appropriate.

I am not going to get into the murky waters of analysing a deviant personality. The causes of the formation of such a personality can be myriad, complex, and require a knowledge of a personal history that is likely never to be truly revealed. We encounter such people sometimes, and when we do we are confronted with the same difficulty. At that point, we need not so much to understand the "why" of the person as the "what" and the "how to deal with" aspects. When confronting a rogue leopard in the wild, I am going to be less concerned with how its mother did or did not nurture him as I am with the fact that he is on the attack and where's the nearest escape or method of defense.

David
14 June 2008 at 06:30

AmiableHermit,

one hermit to another, my apologies if I have stepped on toes or ran at the mouth… I just find it so hard to deal with all the abuse and control, handed out to the female of the species, based on stupid outmoded ideas, mostly based on supposed male rights and superiority… it frustrates me no end, when, like this past month, I am confronted with it at every turn… I have seen it first hand in my 2 daughter’s lives… whether it be in schooling, the law, the work place, even Health matters… women are second class citizens… guess you could say I am a grumpy old man, impatient with the times… :-)

about the punishment… until your comment, I was going to leave this alone… many people here and on other areas of the internet have tried to vent there anger at the enormity of this crime and the monster who committed it, in describing how they would like to treat him… few go far enough…

but put properly, none of the ideas that we have will be carried out, because they would put us in the same class as him…

my nephew and I had a long conversation last night about various aspects of torture (he is ex-military and I am a student of history) that would be appropriate for JF, and the people who are like him… (a French man & his wife and a Belgian, I am thinking of in particular) in the end, it was simply a cathartic exercise of the mind… just as venting with our ideas here on the net is… though these monsters deserve a painful, tormented, and as long as possible, existence… we are drawn down to their barbaric level if we were to be allowed to carry through with our ideas…

David

amiablehermit
14 June 2008 at 14:56

David:

No apologies necessary, and it is good that you look after your daughters and have some outrage at the raw deals women often get.

Listen -- and this may be of interest to others here -- I found part of your comment to me hours before it was posted here on a very odd site that is supposed to be an example of a "WorldPress page". The heading is "Studies show that egg yolks do not choline", which makes no sense. Here is the link to read the gibberish there: http://valuesdeals.com/lineblackwar/2008/05/31/the-caledonia.... Bits and pieces of our posts are stirred together in a kind of goulash. What I find most peculiar, though, is that I read a few lines of your post there before it appeared here. ! Quantum physics meets the Blog? Does anyone here know what this is?

David
14 June 2008 at 21:10

Hi amiablehermit, I have been posting at another site on Word Press, a blog spot... and part of my last post here was inadvertently posted there... late night and lack of sleep... life got interesting around here, being my only excuse... but your link and the comments bear no relationship to the site I have been on... http://avrobeson.wordpress.com/

perhaps there is a law that states: the more you write, the more likely you are to find that someone is writing what you wrote... but your Goulash theory may be even closer... perhaps there is a Sargasso Sea in the Internet... peculiar... great understatement...

amiablehermit
14 June 2008 at 22:58

I'm glad to know that I did not fall down the rabbit hole after all. Although I keep wondering when that will happen....

David: You may be encouraged by this: http://warner.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/06/12/pure-tyranny/?ref....

One thing that has come out recently is that the "upstairs" children and the "downstairs" children are experiencing things so differently that it is a bit of a challege. The pace of life for the "upstairs" children seems too slow for them, and I am sure that they are in something of a funk being separated from their friends and former activities. Meanwhile, the "downstairs" children are all but overwhelmed by the vastness of the world, especially since they are still fascinated by things like passing clouds. I would say that the doctors have their hands full just dealing with this bit of disconnection among the children.

David
15 June 2008 at 02:57

AmiableHermit,

well, as Jefferson Airplane once said, Go ask Alice... she might know ;) me I think the rabbit hole is just around the corner... life in the city seems to be way to fast for me... would love to get a cabin and Walden Pond life going... I have a good idea how the downstairs kids feel...

which is worrying, as they will need the skill sets to survive... and yes have heard too that the upstairs kids, have been sorely missing their friends and life... not easy on them... though they may love and be loved by their downstairs siblings and mother, there is the disconnect with that reality that they have known... keep wondering how Elisabeth handled it all... like when she was traveling daily between the clinic and the hospital...

well, won't be back for a few days... life getting interesting now... folks are back from 2 weeks in England and things have changed around here... may talk about it later, as it has to do with child abuse and choices of getting involved or not... stuff I have been reading about lately....

Cheers Chum

The other wood be hermit... Friar David

1943dower
22 June 2008 at 15:25

One of the writer in this series of incredible comments asked whether there was a way that Elisabeth and her family could be financially helped. Well there is, If you go to the Amstetten council site you can find information there that will enable you to do just that.

Regards to all

Kaisa Ruokamo
24 June 2008 at 11:48

PlanetStarbucks' arguments have been really interesting, intelligent ja so right.

In this discussion writers don't seem to understand what is the difference between feticism built in our conventional thinking and the sound right to know and understand the whole Fritzl-incest -story. I think PlanetStarbucks hasn't ever stated, that you do not have the right to be interested in this case. Nor she/he doesn't say, that your aim to understand this incest case is sic. No.

PlanetS is trying to tell us one very important thing: we are thought and used to think, see and handle these crimes towards humanity through fetichist lenses. That's the problem in talking and being interested in these kind of cases; not that we are - and we have the right and even a sort of obligation - to be interested.

I want to thank here PlanetStarbucks for her/his great and really intelligent argumentation. You have a very relevant point of view. (And not to forget psychologist Anne Carpenter for her analytical article about the needs of Elisabeth Fritzl.)

kathryn
24 June 2008 at 18:28

Hello again to all. I've also found the various postings here very thought-provoking! What do you all think about the newest development, reported today, that Elisabeth Fritzl's statement for the court has been delayed another 3 weeks because she is 'not yet able to face her father' via videolink? I must say, my take on this is that she should NEVER have to 'face' him in ANY way--not via video link, nor God forbid ever in person. I feel she should not have to see or hear from him at all, EVER... I don't understand why she can't just give a viedotaped statement and have that played for the court --and for her father. There is no reason she should have to be on display in court or in any way be brought into Josef Fitzl's presence--even his virtual presence is too much.

I find myself thinking about Elisabeth fritzl and her children daily... THey come to mind at odd moments. Most recently was while we are here at our beach house on the California coast, only yards from the crashing waves, while we are wandering the path along rocky cliffs carpeted in wild poppies, as our kids throw the frisbee for our border collie on the beach, when we sit in awe at the incredible sunsets . . . I want so much for Elisabeth and her children to do these things, too. But then I wonder whether the decades of deprivation will have altered their perceptions in such a way as to make the vastness of the world too much to bear... I think of the fish found in deep caves who have evolved not to have eyes--because there was no need for eyes. Can we appreciate things like sunsets and wind if we've never had those things? Are they intrinsically beautiful and pleasant--or are we just taught early to perceive them as such? (Elisabeth, of course, has 18 years of memories to help her reconnect to the world, but her 'cellar children' have no frame of reference at all.) It was heartening to read last week that Kerstin Fritzl has said she wants to have a boat ride, and go to a pop concert!

Your thoughts ??

Kaisa Ruokamo
25 June 2008 at 14:32

KATHRYN is right. Fritzl case is very educational story about our emotions, that are our tools to operate in this one world, which

is shared and our feelings are common. Thinking and analyzing Fritzl case we can study our own emotions and our skills - and

indeed our needs - in empathy.

I find this Fritzl story interesting and challenging in many ways, but the most important point is the stereotypic image of

Elisabeth Fritzl, made by the people around her (people of Amstetten, her own family and relatives, etc.) while still missing and

lying in her cellar prison. I argue, that the stereotype of bad woman was the main reason why no one ever really started searching of her. And the reason, why no one

ever started thinking what's really wrong in this case of disappearing without a trace.

At least as the first child of Elisabeth appeared by the front door of Josef and Rosemarie Fritzl, people had a very good reason

for stigmatizing and categorizing her as a bad woman, because she seemed - that's even worse: to be an incapable, unworthy and

unfit mother. Josef could predict these common reactions very well - he could trust on the bad stereotype image, which Elisabeth

gave to the people by abandoning her own children. Peoples will to trust on stereotypes and not to criticize and open those to

question is the deepest reason for imprisonment of Elisabeth.

As a man finds a way thinking stereotypically, so he loses his skill to notice and think. He gets blind.

amiablehermit
27 June 2008 at 01:56

Ah, Kaisa Ruokamo. I was hoping that we had left PlanetStarbucks, but apparently we are marooned there. Our friend duyum gave us a definition of fetishism a while back, which was "an irrational, or abnormal, fixation or preoccupation," and I had the distinct impression that PS was basically saying that people interested in this story, especially members of the middle class for some reason, are indulging in this behavior. There are two things I think I should point out about this -- the first is that "fetishism" is what Josef Fritzl indulged in -- so middle class housewives at the supermarket (in PS's very first post here) are basically his equivalent, according to a logical flow. The second point is that fetishism, as PS laid it out from the beginning of this post, is the hobgoblin of the vacuous lives that people have, otherwise they would not be interested in the case since "...I have never understood the fascination with such cases". You may find PS's comments brilliant, but I find them cheaply insulting and designed to provoke a kind of defensiveness from any and all who are, in fact, interested in such cases for reasons that PS apparently cannot comprehend beyond the notion of fetishism.

As for stereotypical thinking being involved in casting a blind eye toward the plight of Elizabeth Fritzl, there is a great lack of information about what people did or did not know, and this certainly does not explain why people who actually knew her -- friends and family -- who presumably would not have been so detached from her as to think in this manner, nevertheless let Daddy Dearest commandeer the show. Familiarity is the nemesis of stereotyping. So the real issue would be why people who would be LEAST LIKELY to think in this manner accept Josef Fritzl's stories anyway? Remember, now, the ONLY person who has so far complained of Elizabeth's youthful "bad" behavior has been her father, and her friends and siblings did not seem to share his opinion about her.

I am not saying that stereotypical thinking does not enter into many misguided views and actions among society as a general rule; but I am saying that I do not think that that was the operative situation in this case. It seems to me that far more lies in the perception others had of the father's temper and personality when it came to people not investigating his claims further. The guy was a jerk that they didn't want to mess with if they could help it, in other words, and as a general rule, people tend to avoid tangling with unpleasant types.

David
29 June 2008 at 05:55

AmiableHermit,

from my foray into various streams regarding the Abuse of the female of our speicis since last posting, I am thinking that PS may have a point with regard to one stream...

if this is the definition of fetishism we are going to use, it suits well what I have witnessed....

"an irrational, or abnormal, fixation or preoccupation,"

whether they are middle class or not, I cannot tell; but I have just deleted 3 blogs on this case, just because I have gotten tired of the innuendo, tabloid gossip, and hate posts regarding Rosemarie.... they could not see past their own filters, even when confronted by women (and one male) who have been abused, they had to find a way around them to keep their views that Rosemarie was involved in some way, with covering for JF, whether it was sin of omission or commission.... rational argument had no affect on them...

this was a significant part of the postings on these blog sites... other people have different reasons to post, such as Katharyn, who I believe, and she will correct me I am sure, ;-)sees in Elisabeth and Families situation, a way to appreciate her own situation all the more, just by reflecting on the differences, and admires her as a woman who can survive... another woman I read, has seen similarities in their situations and has been encouraged and wants to encourage Elisabeth.... me I see it as a trying to come to grips with my own humanity, in how it affects me, how I deal with it, and relate it to action (as in posting these comments for one)... and therefor grow, and begin the process again.... some want to untangle the mess that is the warp and woof of this cloth the media has given us, and make sense of it in a way that they can undertand, as in a detective novel... more power to them, but I vouch, that they will have little success so long as there is the media between us and the truth... we all, who post on these sites, come to the Fritzls situation with all our bias and preconcieved notions, and try to make sense... and take away a little bit to help us deal with the affects on us... for that in the end, is the best part of this, that when we are exposed to something, we cannot but be affected... shoved a small micron in any given direction... and in that shove, hopefully we will shove back, and make a difference somewhere, sometime, so that the world is a better place...

with regard to JF, I have to agree with you on your analysis of his profile... the term Patriarch of the Family comes to mind... as in the Biblical sense... POWER and DISCIPLINE, handing out justice and mercy, after obedience... and no doubt he projected this image to the world... but there would have to be levels of perception... his family, would know him as the Tyrant... and they would be hesitant to cross him... the people who interacted with him, but weren't family, would have different views again... the professionals, (the police, the lawyers, the social workers) would see a strong, powerful, successful business man, the teenage boy that wanted to date his daughter, would see a danger if he crossed him, and one that would be believed over him, a callow youth... but then there were those who really knew the sicko that he was, the brothel owner, and the police who originally charged him for the rapes, they would not be fooled... but they could be safely ignored in 1984.... he was all powerful...

some would be convinced as Kaisa said, that Elisabeth was a bad person... they would say that JF and Rosemarie were being abused in their old age, by this wretched daughter, but doing a wonderful self sacrificing thing in raising her children; there would be a few people, part of the family or close to it, who would have questions, but be too afraid to speak up... the important people would back JF up, the police and social workers... they would not see him as a jerk, but as a proper gentleman of the old school c. early 20th century Europe, (last of an admired breed) that if he said black was white, then so it was, until he said otherwise... whose word was his bond, a hand shake as good as a contract signed... again a Powerful Man... a man to be reckoned with and admired, in the highways and byways of commerce and society... that we see him flawed and a jerk, this is the image he was wanting to project...

amiablehermit
29 June 2008 at 16:30

Friar David:

Welcome back.

As to the whole PlanetStarbucks matter, I am sure that there are any number of posts out there that display irrationality and morbid fascination for this case. If the shoe fits....However, as I said, PS posted the very first comment here and then promptly hijacked the blog and advanced it as an assault on the middle class and then turned the discussion into a kind of nasty fest with her off-point comments as the nexus. I think it is telling that PS and her cohort Robert Powell vanished from here once the dialogue actually started to focus on the artcle that was supposed to be under discussion. I think that you see that this particular blog really has not been indulging in the sort of "fetishism" that PS seemed to have a fetish about. Discussing the salacious fascination of the general public is certainly a valid topic, especially if we can see how detrimental that would be if it reaches the victims in this case, but I think ascribing that attitude to the writers here (especially before anyone wrote a word) is unfair as well as distracting. PS and Robbie struck me as minor bullies seeking attention, so I don't have respect for either of them.

Meanwhile, we do have other developments to discuss, such as Kathryn's wonderings about Elizabeth and the children and the doctors' decision that Elizabeth is yet not well enough to provide testimony. With regard to the latter matter, it does present a bit of a problem -- one can see how protecting Elizabeth's fragile state is paramount, but her testimony is essential to give. One thing about Austria is that it seems that JF can be detained indefinitely, which works in Elizabeth's favor, one would think. It also keeps the creep in suspense, which is bound to be uncomfortable, and he certainlly deserves all the discomfort he can get.

kathryn
30 June 2008 at 05:21

Hello again to all who remain engaged in this interesting discussion! Yes, I do keep wondering about ELisabeth's and her children's adjustments to The World and all its wonders... and I do keep noticing the 'little things' that we all see, hear, smell, etc. constantly and take for granted... I was interested and moved by Kerstin's doctor's account of her awakening and first words, and by another of her doctor's description of how time, for the two "halves" of the fritzl family seems to move at different speeds. Of course the 'upstairs half' is often feeling a little too contained, there in the special flat being provided for the family. Of course those kids and Rosemarie must miss their friends and routine, school, shops, daily life... And yet the 'underground' children are amazed and astonished and delighted and awed just with watching clouds moving overhead. Think--just THINK--of never having seen a cloud. It is truly mind-boggling. You all who have been so sensitively and expressively writing posts on this site might like to watch the footage on this link. It's even more moving and dramatic in the original German,but the woman translating the doctor's remarks does a good job:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7447919.stm

I hope you can access it!

amiablehermit
04 July 2008 at 05:15

kathryn: I thought this was a good link. The doctor seemed to get a little emotional at times, which I found very interesting. I think it is a little hard to imagine the feelings of the staff that are looking after the family -- I am sure that few people are thinking of them. Yet, it must be a very moving experience for them, especially since they are so intimately involved with them on a day-to-day basis. Imagine what it must be like to be one of the doctors or nurses witnessing the interactions and adjustments. You might feel like you were dealing with a foreign universe.

trying to make sense
07 July 2008 at 14:29

Some very academic posts. I too am fascinated, appalled, and for a while had nightmares about the case as I envisaged what it must have been like to be incarcerated for 24 years. Everyones interest must be aroused fro different reasons, and to accuse us of morbid fascination is deeply unfair. My hunger is to learn of what sustained Elizabeth for 24 years. Did she never consider taking all their lives as an act of kindness? I think I might have. Did she ever consider capturing her father and torturing him herself to release them ? I might have. Do I consider her father to be a monster ? I am not sure. His actions were monstrous, but surely he has to be considered ill ?

Working class, middle class, upper class we are all the same blood flesh and bones. Under the veneer of what we call civilisation we are all capable of tipping into this abyss of what we call evil, but thankfully very few of us do. Its what makes thos who do be it in wart or peacetime that is what morbildy fascinates us, the dark side that we believe most of us are immune from.

trying to make sense
07 July 2008 at 15:08

Just been back and read all the posts..and thank you Duyum for yours.

amiablehermit
08 July 2008 at 03:22

Ah, and now the inevitable -- Josef Fritzl wants to sell his story to the highest bidder. I have to admit that back in May when I brought up this prospect, I thought he wouldn't be able to use this ploy unless and and until he was in a mential institution, but apparently he can attempt it from prison. Elizabeth was upset that there have been as many leaks as there have been from the hospital, but this latest strike must be unbelievably hideous to her. Let's hope that the court can shut him up indefinitely.

David
12 July 2008 at 01:04

I find it interesting, that on the 10th we are told that the interviews will be going forward WITHIN the next 2 weeks, and then on the 11th a leak from an unnamed source in the Judiciary, that the meetings had begun that very day, and would continue the following week... either they were setting us up, for an announcement AFTER the fact, in two weeks time, and someone decided to blow the whistle, or the meetings HAVEN'T started, and we are batting around a media frenzy now that will peter out in 2 weeks... am I being too cynical here... whatever, the additional information on the families recoveries is welcome...

amiablehermit
12 July 2008 at 19:44

David: That IS interesting. I had not noticed that, but am not very surprised. When the media reaches a certain level of ruthlessness, people are entitled to defend themselves, which includes subterfuges and other techniques to preseve their own liberty and privacy.

From what I have read it is clear that Elizabeth & family want to be as anonymous as possible, and various methods have been used to smuggle them to and from several locations. One of the daughers went to a youth camp under an assumed name to enjoy a couple of weeks of being normal.

A free press is one of the great hallmarks of a free society, but it does seem as though these days the press is motivated by lucre than by sense and decency. Often times this winds up with the media becoming an ally to the manipulations of victimizers, as is the case here. On the other hand, the public winds up with questionable information when the media is in turn manipulated by those who strive to protect the rights and health of victims.

I think one of the most interesting things about this case is how it challenges us to evaluate the nuances of many issues -- some religious, some legal, some basic human reactions, some psychological, some moral, some social -- and try to come to terms within ourselves about questions that perhaps we have not ever had to consider in depth.

David
13 July 2008 at 00:07

Hi Amiablehermit, I have been following an India, New Delhi murder this past month, and have to say, some of the skepticism has rubbed off from the way that has been conducted in the press and by the police...

I agree with you that this case, the Fritzls, will be talked about, written about, and taught in colleges, for many years... there is so much to learn from it about ourselves and our society...

there is going to be a lot of pressure on the family to submit to check ups, to see how those who were in the dungeon develop... these will have to be assiduously controlled by the family, so that the children do not become lab rats...

you are American, so may remember the feral child Genie, and the fight over her being studied... I only came upon it recently, and was shocked how mistreated she was after the fact, by the court system... I hope the Austrians have better consideration for these children...

Speakeasy42
19 July 2008 at 05:06

Well it's good to see that this string is still going. I still check this place out very often and remain impressed with the in-sight of most of the postings.

It's been pretty hard to keep up with any recent developements in the Fritzl story lately. Most have been about Elizabeth giving testimony. But today I found a post in the Telegraph.co.uk that the entire family have been moved to a more secure and private environment.

It's about time. I have been hoping they would take the government up on the offer of new identities. I wonder if they did.

I don't believe Austria has a law against refusing treatment. And I think a patient's bill of rights is a pretty basic right in most european countries these days. And I would assume Elizabeth is mature enough and legally compotent enough to decide her own need for professional help. Most of the kids are minors, but they have a compotent parent and a decent lawyer. The eldest kids are legal adults.

They will all need victim assistance and help in starting over, as well as abuse counseling. But I doubt that actual poking and prodding or any kind of lab rat will be needed.

I admit to being one of the first to say that I am addicted to this story and hunt every day for any new developments, but we all know that these people deserve thier privacy. I worry that they feel like they have to hide from the world now. How awful is that? Will they ever be free?

I'm glad to hear that Elizabeth is giving testimony. It's a sign that she's doing well. I often wonder if JF will live to see the trial. If he does, I hope it kills him.

I think about the two oldest kids most of the time. How are they getting on, I wonder. It must be hard on them.

They don't have the sense of feeling like, "it's finally over!" in the same way that Elizabeth does, I'll bet. For mom, it must be like, "I have my life back!" But for Kerstin and Stefan I wonder if it's more like, "Life is too fuckin' scary!"

Imagine how disconnected they must feel. How they must feel left behind. No education beyond what they're mother knew. No chance for even a somewhat normal childhood, whatever that is. And then boom! Adulthood in a whole new world they're probably not even ready for.

Throw in the media and you got survival mode. Just try to look and act normal. They are still just little kids who were abused and imprisoned by the only man they have ever seen! It tears at my guts to think about it.

I hate to say it but I think the Fritzl family may feel even more alone and isolated than they ever felt before. Escapees of an evil tirant that have been forced to run from the world to escape being put behind glass.

kathryn
19 July 2008 at 20:48

I think your wonderings and observations are right on the mark, Speakeasy42. I, too, often check for Fritzl updates, and have been heartened to learn that ELisabeth is giving statements about her ordeal. I'm sorry that Kerstin and Stefan won't testify . . . but I can imagine they are overwhelmed and confused beyond measure. You are right that Elisabeth, at least, always had a vision in mind of the real world and knew all too well what she was missing. But the children in the cellar with her had only those dank, dark walls as their WHOLE WORLD. It's not only THINGS that are unfamiliar to them, but sensory experiences all of us take for granted: the feeling of fresh air, wind, rain; the scent of mown grass or fields of flowers or traffic exhaust or a wet dog . . . The sounds of people living in the world, and planes overhead, and the ocean crashing on rocks, a busy cafeteria of school kids, cows mooing in their barn . . . But it's also social situations they will be unfamiliar with. How society works. DO they know that people can lie and steal and cause mayhem? Do they know how money works? Elisabeth may have tried to teach them everything she knew, and she apparently did a fine job since they are able to speak and read and write. But social interaction, the psychological underpinnings we learn from dealing with people daily, a sense of history and of place . . . all these were limited or unavailable to the kids in the cellar. Also physical movement--the chance to run or skip or even stand upright were denied them. I can imagine that the concept of testifying about their "case" is foreign to Kerstin and Andreas. How do you testify about your reality when it has been the only thing you've known? I would be interested to know what/how much Elisabeth told them about their plight over the years. Did they know there was a whole wide world out there that they SHOULD have been part of? Did they know they were prisoners? Did they know that, if Elisabeth had had a more normal life, they themselves would never have been born? I imagine she would want to shelter them from the knowledge that they were the product of rape/incest, and that their very lives were products of her horrifying and torturous ordeal. Likewise, I can imagine she might have wanted to shelter them from the knowledge that they were prisoners. I also can't help but wonder whether the 4 of them down in that cellar ever sat around talking about a plan for how to capture, tie up and imprison their father, with-holding food and water until he gave them the code that would open their door. It seems that should have been possible... but on the other hand, people so terribly victimized often lose their perspective and their willl, and are so shackled by fear they are virtually paralyzed.

Ah well. I wish the Fritzls all the best. I hope they can find a good life somewhere. I do think it won't be easy to stay "undercover' for long; I think they won't blend easily into society for quite some time.

amiablehermit
23 July 2008 at 22:56

You know, I think I have had something of a mild ephiphany concerning my own response to this case, and a clue to it lies in my moniker -- amiablehermit. I choose to isolate myself and find great benefit from it, but, it is my CHOICE. When isolation is inflicted, do you endure it by, so to speak, delving into it as I have done? Is the path the same or drastically different? I ask this because I can see the arrival spot as virtually the same -- anonymity, which is the only true privacy. And I believe that personal privacy is a human right. Since her father deprived Elizabeth and her children a human right for so long, wouldn't the desire for anonymity -- true personal privacy -- be overwhelming? I can see 24 years of spirituality supporting this endurance and desiring just one human right above all others. Not too much to ask is it really? Just leave us alone because we now need to be alone... I so understand this on this level.

It is one thing for us to talk amongst ourselves, which I see inflicting no harm on the Fritzl family. But we should all be circumspect about showing anything but charity to them, whatever their requirements.

Speakeasy42
24 July 2008 at 05:02

Well said. Privacy is very important.

I mentioned much earlier about my "border-line antisocial" tendencies. Believe me, Hermit. I know how important anonimity is. You hit it on the nail.

People who have never been a victim of sexual or otherwise physical assaults truly have no idea of how embarrassing it is to the victim.

I know it becomes clear to all when I mention examples like women who don't report rapes, or boys/men who don't admit to childhood abuse. It's obvious to everyone that the victim must feel some level of embarrassment.

But often because society can recognize the criminality behind the abuse, and because our hearts go out to the victim, society jumps at the oportunity to render aid and understanding, express our sorrow, and spew outcries of injustice and vengence.

Take it from me, the victim hears you say that you care and understand them. I heard you tell me that it's not my fault. I get it. Now shut up about it.

And so many people try to show thier care over what has happened to the victim by ranting disgust and hate toward the abuser. "He needs to be killed! Locked up in a dungeon of his own!" Some people may feel that the best way to help them is to protect them.

But victims also hear everything else that society has said too. And every victim also carries with them thier own fundamental beliefs and feelings about life and sex and violence.

It doesn't matter whether or not she's ever been asked why she wore such a low cut dress to the bar that night she was raped. She will still have a need to explain it, as if she was being asked, because she will wonder that it may be what your thinking. She will question it herself.

It has nothing to do with anyone else, but with her own self-image. You can be as understanding as Jesus Christ and it won't help her a bit. She will feel STUPID for ever wearing that slutty dress. She will feel like an idiot for doing something that dumb. For putting herself in that situation. Or getting that drunk/high.

She will look at herself with disgust. She will believe that she deserves it for not being smart enough, tough enough, savvy enough, or strong enough to overcome her attacker. She will hate herself for just laying there and taking it, or for not being wise enough to avoid it. She will blame herself just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time. No amount of water will wash away the dirt.

For the victim of a sexual or violent crime, life kinda takes on a different meaning. For someone like me, who was abused for most of my childhood years, and if I dare say for Elizabeth, we were victimized by our fathers. By our role-model. Trust in others is pretty hard after that. Hell, it's hard to trust my own judgement.

It's hard to believe it when people tell you it wasn't your fault sometimes because so often the victim is struggling with the notion that maybe it partly was. Could I have stopped it earlier? And if I could have, then does that mean that maybe part of me didn't want it to stop? And if thats true then what kind of monster am I? And what did I do to deserve it? Does what come around truly go around? If so, then what did I do to make it come at me? Am I different? I must be. There must be something I did or didn't do that caused this. How can I avoid this in the future? If I can avoid it now then I must have been too dumb to avoid it then.

The inner turmoil is just endless. And I wonder if any of you reading this has yet noticed that I never pointed the finger at the most obvious. My attacker!! For some crazy reason almost every victim acts the same way when initially reporting a sexual assault. They always start out by justifying where they were or why they were doing what they were doing. It's worse than confession! They almost always look as if their admitting some big secret, like it's wrong what they did. They never tell it like they would if they were talking about being in any other traumatic situation. Like a fire or a bank robbery, or a car crash. It seems that many victims often feel less like their attacker hurt them as they did "trick them". My attacker tricked me, was sneaker, smarter, tougher, stronger, meaner. I was made the fool, whether they got away with it or not. He took advantage of me or my body. He used me. I got used. Like worthless trash. Try to picture yourself as a young kid in the halls at school and the big bully knocks you down and everyone laughs at you. It doesn't help a damn bit that the bully got suspended from class. It's the other eyes on you that make you feel like a moron, and nothing can fix that. It's just life! The only fix is in undoing it. And the more eyes that are watching, the harder it is to believe that someone's not thinking the worst of you.

Now when you start to add up all the other people who have been affected by what has happened, like your mother, brother, sister, wife, husband, children. Thats when it really starts to hurt. You feel like the cause of it all. And if there is a trial over whats happened then you and your accusations are put on trial. I don't care what anyone thinks, you are being judged just as much, if not more, as the perpatrator is.

When society screams for the head of such an evil person it can make the victim sometimes feel like the reason for all this hate and discontent. They can sometimes feel the focus of all the turmoil.

If your kid accidentally pissed his pants in the shopping mall because the bathroom was locked or broken how do you think he would feel if you went screaming through the store for the manager in order to show him what has happened to your poor child? Think of his self-esteem. Sure, he should be pissed off too. He's the one in soggy shorts! But he just wants to run home and hide. And he probably hates you for even bringing it up.

Don't try to help your friend who may be suffering by trying to talk about it unless they ask you to. It's a private thing that they're going through and you won't be able to "understand", even if you went through it too. It's different for everyone. And don't offer advise unless it's worked for YOU! And only if they ask for it. Just listen to them, and keep trying to show them that you love them and like them because of who they are.

Try to help them see that they are a good person and worth your friendship. Victims need to feel respected. They need to feel that they matter. And don't be mad if they don't respond the way you think they should.

I would also like to add a note about the UTTERLY RIDICULOUS notion that because you were abused as a child you will somehow become an abuser as an adult. While it is sometimes true that people can be phychologically damaged to a point of becoming harmful to themselves as well as to others, it is EXTREMELY rare that a child who was raped will grow up to rape others. A large majority of sexual assault victims can't help but to identify with the victim rather than with the abuser. I mean any other notion is just stupid and wrong. If you believe that the reason Ted Bundy killed women and raped their corpses was because of his "childhood" than you might as well just go and shoot poor little Stefan Fritzl in the face. And hang me while your at it. And guess what? Almost 45% of women say that they have been the victim of some form of sexual assault in their lifetime. Why aren't the ladies out there all twisted and crazy, trying to molest all the little kids out there? LOL. No it's Catholic priests!! Tell me how that makes sense and I'll tell you that me terds have turned purple and smell like rainbow sherbet!

Strawberry
25 July 2008 at 05:59

A small new piece of information can come along and your mind suddenly sees something from a different perspective.

I read today that Rosemarie, Elizabeth's Mother has moved out and of everyone is having the hardest time adjusting. While I don't think the conclusions the paper comes out with can be relied on as accurate I could appreciate the difficulty she may be having adjusting to the situation.

Elizabeth has been through a nightmare but in some ways she may not have been imprisoned by her situation in the same way as Rosemarie was imprisoned by hers.

Elizabeth may have been physically imprisoned but she had the freedom to choose, which she took that is, that what was happening to her was against her will. She knew her situation was not to her choosing. You might in the most umempowered situation on earth but that single thought is empowering. There is a sense of your own identity in it.

I think Rosemarie's situation is a bit more ambiguous. She seems to have been content to have gone with the flow all the way through and for her this turned out to be a dangerous place to be. All was so not what she thought. I've no idea whether all that has happened would be causing her to question everything and understand what has happened or whether she would just be thoroughly confused and overwhelmed by it all.

What was done to Elizabeth was stark and definite, what was done to Rosemarie was subtle and sneaky.

amiablehermit
25 July 2008 at 06:19

And here we have a situation, Speakeasy42, where people are facing FAME by being victims. Can you imagine anything more appalling to confront after 24 years -- to a person's entire lifetime -- of isolation and abuse? And this is how everyone will know you when you are finally free? It is like leaving one nightmare to enter another. I am all for whatever it takes for this family to obtain their true personal freedom. I am so far impressed with what the Austrian government has done so far to help them to achieve that, whatever their motives may be in doing so. As long as it works out for the family.

I think one thing that you see rather clearly, Speakeasy42, is that, really, everyone has life scars from other people. Some are deeper and more invisibly disfiguring than others, but in one way or another we all have known some cruelty. One is challenged to come to terms with this, and the emotions and the intellect are seldom on the same page during the process, which can be maddeningly frustrating. A part of you knows that this really not about you, but another part can't let go that it is all about you.

Everything takes time. It takes time to just observe, and time to care for others to get out of yourself, and time to look after yourself so you can keep caring for others, and time to sleep and go about the usual things in a day. Often times it is hardest to be patient with oneself. Some times there is really nothing more precious than the privacy to practice in solitude that patience one needs with oneself.

I rather doubt that any of the imprisoned Fritzls felt much privacy of any sort in their cellar. I cannot even imagine how precious the opportunity to be truly alone might feel, as ironic as that sounds. But I can certainly see it.

Speakeasy42
25 July 2008 at 22:33

Kathryn:

I love the detail with which you described the world. Very vivid. It really creates a clear image about the new life that faces those poor kids. I think about what they must be discovering almost every day.

I get what you mean when you discuss how much thier mother may have told them or hid from them. As well as your comments about how much they may have not known about the world around them. And when you wonder about whether they may have tried to overpower JF I can't help but stop and think about it.

Crap, this may be my longest post yet...lol.

When I try to imagine thier plight (given only what little we know, mind you), I try hard, like you, to be as realistic about it as possible. I remember that the papers said that they did have access to a t.v. I'll bet we soon have debates over how much(and what) one can learn from ONLY seeing outside life through a t.v. screen. If you think about it, thier life experience would make for a pretty respectable study on what t.v. teaches our kids. (Oh I would seriously be afraid of the findings!! lol)

So they had a t.v. I would then have to assume that they had at least a very rudamentary notion of life above ground. But one thing I know they had for certain was a great deal of questions!!

I don't know about the rest of you parents out there but I'm fully aware of how inquisitive young minds can be and it makes me realize that poor Elizabeth would have to have a pretty darn good imagination to hide the fact that they were trapped in there.

I don't know how they handled it, and I probably don't want to know, but I do know that the t.v. was a major influence on pushing those kids' desire to be out of that hell! They may have even grown to resent the damn t.v.

The pictures we see of the dungeon show alot of basic creature comforts. Running water, a flush toilet, a shower. I guess she even had a kitchen with a fridge and stove. There were beds, and light, and a washing machine and freezer. She probably had a radio.

But it didn't start that way. She was teathered to a pole for her first nine months in a small little room/hole (with a dirt floor, I'll bet)! He may have worked on that dungeon the entire time to get it to that condition without anyone becoming suspicious of his activities. It took alot of time.

And I know that if she could have she would have tried (probably many times) to escape. I don't know what it's like to be locked up. But most POWs and MIAs look pretty tortured and abused after thier ordeal. And I rate his sexual abuse and incest as worse than most of the torture a soldier may go through. I think she may have been incarcerated longer than any US soldier ever, don't know.

I'm sure she was horrifically terrified of her father, if not before her kidknapping then certainly after just a few weeks of being trapped and raped by him. I'm sure that once he got a taste of being able to act however he wished without worry of her escaping, he had no mercy for her.

We only know what she said to police intially, but I'm sure that he must have beat her routinely for years. His punishment of her was most brutal. Even though over the years and after all the kids things may have mellowed, there must have been a relentless amount of fear and terror of him.

It just stands to reason that all of them were constantly sick, under-nutured, under-stimulated, thoroughly depressed clinicly, and he probably had them thinking he could kill them whenever he wanted, and could shut them in and starve them as well.

Removing the t.v. was probably used as a minor form or punishment. Or maybe he just turned off the power completely every night at six, or something.

kathryn
31 July 2008 at 21:54

Thanks for your long and thoughtful comment, Speakeasy. Have you read the recent news about how Rosemarie Fritzl is divorcing her husband? No surprise in that, and probably about 40 years overdue. Or more. Then there's the other recent news report that poor Herr Fritzl is going 'stir crazy' in his lonely prison cell, and has asked to have his allowed daily 30 minutes outside in the prison yard. Nice to see some blue sky occasionally, eh, Josef?

amiablehermit
05 August 2008 at 10:23

I think the struggle is just beginning for poor Rosemarie, but I don't see this as entirely a negative. It is no doubt long overdue for her to split out of the cocoon of ignorance and avoidance and face reality. Her inner strength is now being tested.

amiablehermit
17 August 2008 at 05:48

None of knows all of the gory details of this sordid business, let alone who knew anything about anything. This much is clear, however, that Rosemarie was cleared of knowledge and involvement by the police and that Elizabeth, likewise, believed that she was not an accomplice.

Now, what she SHOULD have known is a completely different matter. And we could say the same about a variety of people, including Elizabeth's numerous siblings and other relatives, as well as neighbors and friends. By all accounts, Rosemarie is not the sharpest tack on the board, and you have to wonder why the psychiatrists at the clinic considered her to be the most psychologically damaged of the lot, considering the extent of psychological damage inflicted on the rest. It certainly seems, too, that after an initial love fest, Elizabeth has come to think that her mother should have at least been suspicious, although we are given to believe that their falling out had more to do with the mother role issue than about that -- who can say? But having known a few incredibly dense, passive-aggressive people whose lives are more or less about not rocking the boat and getting by, it is not such a stretch for me to imagine that Rosemarie didn't have much of a clue about a lot.

amiablehermit
19 August 2008 at 05:32

Yes, I think we all heard you the first time.

kathryn
19 August 2008 at 08:46

Whoa! Umm..... Hello, 'Reader.' I think if you've read all the hundreds of posts on this site, you'll agree that most if not all of what you've written has already been discussed--though not all at once!--by many of us. You pointedly list the many many things 'wrong with the picture' in the Fritzl family over the 24 years that Elisabeth and her children were imprisoned underground, and I think we all share your incredulity and outrage that no one noticed anything. I, too, have a very hard time believing that Rosemarie didn't know anything. She sounds like a terribly weak woman, in total denial. I would be interested in hearing what Elisabeth's brothers and sisters have to say about life with their mother... She couldn't have been much of a roll model. I've read in a recent news story that Elisabeth Fritzl has rejected the new identity offered by the Austrian authorities and says she will change only her last name. She will eventually--and it seems she knows the time will come--be discovered (It's hard to live with six kids and not attract some notice in your city , town or village!). But the more time that goes by before her story hits the media full-force, the longer she has to develop a new life. I hope she is not 'outed' to the press anytime soon. She deserves quiet, peace, time.

amiablehermit
20 August 2008 at 04:10

Elizabeth seems remarkably realistic, all things considered. Remarkably sane. I just wonder. But I know I am not entitled to conclude too much. I think we all probably wish we knew more.

kathryn
21 August 2008 at 21:00

There was this sad, but interesting, article online yesterday. Here's the link:

http://www.theage.com.au/world/fritzls-victims-face-life-in-...

In our postings here some of us have tried to imagine the unfathomable strangeness of the world the Fritzls now find themselves in; I'm only sorry it is so hard for them and will, it seems, continue to be. It's awful for the "upstairs children" also, I think, to be reunited with their mother and siblings, but only at the cost of losing the only life they ever had (and one they liked, with friends and school). Such an unspeakable tragedy, and yet we still speak of it, just trying to get a grip on its magnitude.

amiablehermit
22 August 2008 at 03:08

Yes, the legacy of Josef Fritizl is certainly an abomination, with no kin left unscathed in one way or another. All the smashed pieces of lives that lie around this distorted creature. I wonder if the upstairs children are angry and resentful toward the true culprit, or whether they may blame Elizabeth for the complete destruction of life as they knew it. One day all was familiar, and then literally the next day, all that was normal to them was completely swept away as drastically as it would have been in devastating hurricane.

There must be a tremendous amount of grief and confusion for all the people JF destroyed. Really, there cannot be an adequate justice, as I think many of us have known all a long. While we can hope and pray for the best where the victims are concerned, it just may not be very realistic to think that there can be anything close to a thorough healing for people so badly mutilated in so many ways. You are so right kathryn -- we are speaking about the unspeakable since there are no adequate ways to express the range of horror this tragedy encompasses.

HCat
22 August 2008 at 14:57

As always the witch hunter in all of us comes out and we all bay for punishment of some kind. However it is important to remember that we must first understand this in order to prevent it happening again and very inconveniently for all of us the cause may be also linked to a societal / cultural fault not only in Austria but wider. Threfore we need to help Josef Fritzl to change and teach us where he is coming from no matter how warped. However i do think that he needs to be incarcerated permanantly but certainly not hung or electrocuted.Also he is not a monster or a creature he is human and the same as us .Those of you who say otherwise are only being ignorant.Perhaps you would have done the same thing as Josef if you were in his shoes !?

amiablehermit
24 August 2008 at 03:56

HCat:

I have some difficulties with your perspectives. First of all, I am not at all sure that most people would "understand this" or that it is actually possible to "help Josef Fritzl to change and teach us where he is coming from". If you have some ideas on how these things can be accomplished, then please share.

Second, as far as JF's shoes are concerned, do you mean that if we were he we would do the same. That is a tautology. If you are saying if we had his experiences we would likewise have done as he did, well, I think that is highly questionable. What I can say is that if I were myself and walking in his shoes, I cannot imagine doing the things that he did.

Strawberry
24 August 2008 at 04:13

Josef Fritzl wouldn't change. To do so would require empathy, something that can't be taught; and it certainly appears he doesn't have any.

I agree with the perspectives presented here about how difficult it is for the family to recover from what they have been put through. I'm also glad that reports of the damage done are being forcefully conveyed, in order to aid the case against Fritzl. The consequences of what he put into motion are of the utmost seriousness.

However there is a part of me that hopes they have not endured everything they have been put through for nothing. I'd like to think it is still possible for the human spirit to triumph. Even if it sometimes only for small satisfactions from this life for them. I was delighted to read, for instance, how overawed Stefan was looking up into a tree at how large and amazing he found it. And from this deciding he might like to be a gardener. I guess growing up taking nature for granted this is not something that would strike many of us in the way.

I remember reading about a World War One veteran who returned home with bad Post Traumatic Shock Syndome. This was before anyone had heard of the condition let alone developed counselling for it. He said he found chopping wood extremely theraputic and it became his way of healing himself from his painful experiences. I really hope Elizabeth and family can find ways to alleviate their pain and find some meaning and happiness in this life.

amiablehermit
24 August 2008 at 04:32

Yes, Strawberry.

I would like it if the family can find its compass in life, even though it is bound to be not only difficult, but, I am sure, a very different sort of life than any of us would have, there are limitless possibilities in life, and, well, you just never know.

amiablehermit
26 August 2008 at 03:57

It is now reported that JF may be charged with up to 3000 counts of rape against Elizabeth. Austria ought to be able to pull a lengthy rabbit out of that hat, you would think.

amiablehermit
26 August 2008 at 04:05

I'm sorry, but I really am having a hard time with people who talk about understanding Josef Fritzl. How can anyone understand a person who rapes his daughter two to three times a week for 24 years? Even if it is possible to "understand" such a reprobate, who would want to? What would be gained, but disgust and horror?

It is amazing that he actually admits he did this. Only can only believe that, surpassing all understanding, he is somehow proud enough of it to admit it. Unreal.

Strawberry
26 August 2008 at 07:54

Fritzl's admitting to the crime so readily perhaps provides a clue as to why he was so meticulous about keeping secret what he did over a twenty four year period. A fellow work mate remarked that at the time he worked with Fritzl, Fritzl gave nothing away about himself or even that he had a family (let alone two).

There is a paradox between his keeping a secret so effectively and his admitting to what he had done as soon as he knew the game was up. It seems to indicate that there was a level that Fritzl understood the fragility of what he had set up. One curious mind, one slip up, one unguarded moment and the whole thing would collapse on him. Fritzl understood very thoroughly the precariousness of the situation he had set in motion.

Speakeasy42
26 August 2008 at 08:16

Dear Mr. Hermit and Kathryn,

Thank you Kathryn for the link. It seems harder and harder, for me at least, to find any recent updates. Your help is appreciated even if the news is so sad. I'm sure that finding any good news is even harder still.

Congrats, Hermit, on maintaining your composure after that recent posting! I only caught the first explosive rant but realize after seeing your one-liner response about hearing him the first time that a second simular posting must have been made. I am also somewhat surprised and highly impressed by our gracious host for removing them both. Aren't you? I don't need to know what was said but I am sure by the action taken that it was not very nice.

It does make me see, however, that this string is being monitored and that is comforting. And, after being reminded of that I counldn't help but cruise back through some of the things I've posted myself.

Although I do stand behind the things I've written, I can't help but think that some of those things were a bit harsh. And I have to admit that I've taken maybe too much liberty with assuming what this family is going through, as well as injecting my past into this case.

Please forgive me if I've ever appeared over-zealous and excuse my tresspasses. When I read your individual postings I can't help but be reminded of your obvious intellect and wisdom. You both have such a wonderful insight and view of life. I'm sure I would love knowing each of you. I could learn alot.

A comment about Rosemarie......

I said this before. Rosemarie, in my opinion, is just as much a victim as anyone. I can understand that because she is the "mother and wife" society automatically places alot of responsibility for this on her.

Kathryn, you noted that she must be, "a terribly weak woman and in denial". Now, I don't know her and she may be inherently weak and incredibly gullible. But she may also have been made that way by her husband.

What if she was beaten, or abused? Do you think that she could have been conditioned by this monster? How do you think he may have made her feel about herself and her role in the family. Look at the generation she was raised by. Look at the culture she comes from. Not meaning that Austria is bad, or at fault, but think about the predjudices that she was accustomed to hearing even if she wasn't racist herself.

I know that because of my past it may appear that I'm defending her for other reasons. But I can't help feeling as if she truly is innocent after knowing that she has been welcomed by all the other family members involved, if that is what we are to understand from the little information we have.

This man is beyond anything I can ever comprehend. I was tormented by my father. But what this man has done surpasses everything I would think possible. I probably would not have been able to endure even being any of his other children without suffering some form of abuse or neglect or even trauma. I guess maybe I'm trying to remember to place the ENTIRE blame where I feel it belongs.

Kathryn, I don't mean to single you out. I'ld be willing to bet a great deal that your a mother yourself. And almost every mother I speak to about this tradegy seems to have a very hard time accepting Rosemarie's innocence. I can see that the maturnal instinct is stronger than I'll ever understand.

This reminds me of something I read somewhere about "unconditional love". It said that the only "UNCONDITIONAL LOVE" possible was a mother's love for her children. It said that not even a father's love is truly "unconditional".

I'm a father and I have to admit that there are some things I may not be able to live with my children doing. But my wives don't feel that way. I've let my mom down countless times and she loves me just as much, if not more, than she ever has.

If my wife's child (our child) and I were dangling from a cliff and my wife stood above us with only enough time to save one of us, I know I'm a dead man. Sure it's only right, and it's what I would want my wife to do. But I think, for my wife, it's more than just a matter of what's "right". It's an instinctual commitment that a mother can't possibly deny. She has to save her child even at her own expense. There is no choice.

Now this may seem harsh, and probably wrong, but I would have a hard time loosing my wife. My soul-mate. Hey, we can always have more kids. Ewww, I know. I thank God I've never been tested, and am probably horrifically wrong for thinking that, but that's my point. A mother would never ever understand not putting her child above all else. Is there another form of unconditional love possible? Maybe I'm just not a good judge of these things.

I personally think that Rosemarie loves Elizabeth a great deal more than she's ever loved her husband.

Is it true that the family has been moved? Are they in a new location? That one report I mentioned earlier is the only thing I've found stating that the family is no longer where they've been.

Hermit, I can't agree more about your frustration over this "understanding" JF. Isn't it clear that he's a classic psychopathic, sociopathic, madman? If you could get an honest response from him now about what he would have done with his underground family had he known prior to his incarceration what was in store for him, I'll bet he would tell you that he wishes he would have just killed them all. I'm sure he would have at least let Kirsten die.

HCat
26 August 2008 at 13:58

Response to Amiable hermit

Ok i agree with your technicality about tautology. I guess what i meant is that if you put any individual in exactly the same circumstances they would probably carry out those actions or similar.

In terms of understanding ...disgust and horror will be the only outcome if there isnt a full and comprehensive scientific analysis of the causes. To say that there is no need to understand is only contributiong to a discourse which could perpetuate this type of behaviour. But i understand your viewpoint in terms of not wanting to understand it.

remember the other austrian case said that she believed it waas linked to authoritarianism and the 2nd world war specifically nazism

If the outcome of the analysis is ultimately non preventable then fine theres no need for understanding just castrate and hang the git.

Hcat

amiablehermit
27 August 2008 at 01:33

Hcat:

Do you think that if you were in the same circumstances as JF, that you would rape and terrorize your daughter for 24 years? eek. I would venture to say that there are many people who have had it a lot worse than JF and did not choose that option. If this were not the case, this (fortunately) rare abberation might be quite commonplace (God forbid).

Many very expert profilers and psych-types have been studying serial killers and other depraved individuals for quite a long while, and I do not think we are any closer than ever to being able to predict or prevent atrocities that are perpetrated on others. It would be an excellent thing if there were such a methodology, but narcissists and others with entrenched personality flaws are notoriously resistant to any kind of rehabilitation. What makes a sadist a sadist? Circumstances? No. There is a proclivity for sadism, and it is then actualized. At what point do you diagnose such a proclivity? Infancy? Childhood? Adolescence? Can you predict it by environment, genetics, what? And from whom do you obtain your research material? The subject who very well may be a pathological liar? His family? Will they be cooperative if they are defensive or pathological themselves? Is the community responsible? The era? The transits of the stars and planets? Demons? Everything? What if at the end of this quest we find that, ultimately, this type of person CANNOT change? Are we further along practically?

And what would be required of us psychically to "understand" this person? Get into his mind and become like-minded? No thanks, if that is the case.

I am certainly open to hearing how you would approach the problem. It would be quite a gift to us all if you can propose a viable methodology.

Many thanks,

amiablehermit

amiablehermit
27 August 2008 at 01:57

Speakeasy:

Once again I appreciate your openness and eloquence. You have no need to apologize for anything. I agree that this site does a good job of applying its policy without being intrusive. I also share many of your feelings and opinions on this matter.

If you go to Google News and search "fritzl" you will find a collection of articles that have been posted from the beginning of this mess.

One small thing, I am female and a mother of a grown child. The whole issue of Rosemarie's role in this is a huge topic. In my view, what is unfathomable is why she did not turn over every stone looking for her daughter when she first disappeared. Was JF involved in preventing her from doing that? We just don't know....

HCat
27 August 2008 at 14:38

Fair point Hermit

Im sure that this case will be analysed anyway the austrian authorities will have a legal obligation to do so.

Im sure we cant rely on Fritzl's account or any possibility for his rehabilitation maybe he could be injected with a truth serom that the CIA use on people to obtain his real motives apart from the obvious violent sexual obsession , I firmly believe that this is possibly a power related issue and that in many ways Fritzl is beyond help simply because it is not only potentially a genetic/environmantal cause but that it is also a societal /cultural cause. Also proclivity is a fancy word but it only states basically where ignorance starts because everything has a reason or a cause. I dont have a methodology im just saying that someone needs to think its worth it to come up with something new,i totally disagree that just because so many methods have been tried throughout history that everything has been tried. Who is speakeasy anyway "openess and eloquence " whats he up to ?

amiablehermit
28 August 2008 at 03:30

Speakeasy can speak for himself, but I suggest you review previous posts to he what he has had to say up to now.

I did not mean to suggest that all methods of analysis have been exhausted, since what lies in the future is potential that I don't know. I am simply saying that, so far, our best efforts have not given us definitive answers for why people behave in unspeakable ways to others.

Thanks for your thoughts.

amiablehermit
28 August 2008 at 05:49

LOL. I forgot that I wanted to comment on the 'truth serum".

Can you imagine what sort of truth a person holds when he is someone who rapes his daughter for 24 years, makes her bear his children alone (!?), and imprisons her and a few (???) of her children in a dungeon? Where does truth enter here? What I mean by that is that can you see this as YOUR truth? Who in the world would make that life his truth? What kind of truth is it? Is it even a truth when it so repels people and distorts any communal notion of truth?

I guess what I am saying also is that I could care less about his truth, which is no truth, but some sort of sub-or proto-human truth, only worse, since he has more than the average quotient of intellect. He is perverted. Period. I think you will find that bloggers here care less about JF than they do about his two families. There is enough food for thought in considering their future lives, which, in all of this, is what matters more than he.

Speakeasy42
28 August 2008 at 05:58

Hermit,

O M G! I am terribly sorry for not realizing that you were a woman who is well experienced with motherhood. It's obvious to me now (referring to the parosal conversation a few months ago). LOL!! You have to understand, however, that your comments have been so thought provoking, intellegent, non-bias, and level-headed that I had to assume that you were a man!

Just kidding........

I am a fool for not seeing this fact earlier and have once again proved that men can be utterly oblivious.

Oh I've spent hours searching every engine I know of (not many, I admit) and using every keyword I can think of, mind you. It just seems to me that things have dried up out there over the past couple months. I get most of my updates here! Of course this is a good thing, because it means the family is being protected. I just wish they let me in on it.

I can certainly appreciate your feeling like Rosemarie should have done more. Or like you mentioned before that all of the famliy members should have done more. As a parent, I would have not been able to accept any story of where my kid was or what she was up to. If she wrote to me and told me she was "joinin' a cult, mom, see ya" it would have been impossible for me to have not tried to find out where she was simply so I could beat some sense into her!

But that's not what happened, is it?

Remember that Rosemarie read letters that were written with her daughter's hand, telling her that Elizabeth had no wish to see any of her family again. She was told, "by her daughter", on post-marked letters, that she didn't even want her own children!!

Stop and think about what those letters might have said..... "if you try to find me and bring me back I'll run again and NEVER write or communicate." Or even worse yet, "I don't love you".

The missing persons investigation was very thorough, according to all the news I've read. Even the police were satisfied that she probably didn't WANT to be found. They knew from the letters, verified by her own mother to be authentic and at least written in her daughter's hand, that proved that she was alive and well with no need or desire for anyone to save her. She was not missing after all, it turned out. "Legally, Mrs. Fritzl, we can't make your daughter associate with you." "maybe you would be interested in speaking with our community counselor or social woker on how to best deal with your daughter not loving you anymore".

So, what did those letters do to Rosemarie's opinion of her daughter? Sorrow? Anguish? Fear? Regret? Dissapointment? Denial? Anger? Doubt?

My kid takes off and purposefully and physically seperates herself from everything she's ever known or cared about. I got a big question for her if I ever see her or talk to her again. What Happened??? WHY?

I might get into how I feel about that investigation later on because that's what we all need to focus on when it comes to the prevention of such a horrible crime as this. Not Joseph Fritzl!

Why wasn't there some professionally trained person involved that could see that this poor girl showed no previous history of behavior that would indicate her "joinin' a cult" or even runnin" away! It doesn't make sense. Any flat-footed, gum-shoe should have noticed that this missing person didn't fit the profile.

Except until you looked at the letters. The letters that Elizabeth wrote....herself. The letters that couldn't be denied. Every self-respecting beaurocrat in the system can see there's no more need to waste valuable resorces on this any longer.

Joseph made Elizabeth write those letters. She wrote them as she sat in her dungeon. She had to think of her children first. She had to somehow protect them......

But let's not forget Rosemarie. She then is later faced with not only having to care for her daughter's discarded children, but having to explain Elizabeth's actions to her community. Having to defend her daughter's decision to just drop them on the door step and not even knock???

Rosemarie raised those kids, I'll bet with the only kind of love a mother is capable of, Hermit. Unconditional love.

Rosemarie went from probably being very upset and disappointed about Elizabeth's choices in life, while raising her bastard children, to having to defend her actions against a GLOBAL ONSLAUGHT of persecutions and hatred. Over-night.

Joseph Fritzl is a monster and to call him human is an insult to me and to my kind. The terror, pain, and anguish he has caused is impossible to fully measure. He is like Satan-incarnate!

I'ld be willing to share other thoughts I've had about the damage he has caused to ALL HE HAS TOUCHED with anyone out there who may need more convincing.

There is nothing we can learn from him. His words and thoughts and opinions have NO value to me. Any study done is an educational asset I personally am willing to sacrifice for moral justice. And I'm traditionally against the death penalty because I feel it causes society to "stoop" to the level of hate that brought about the issue. I certainly feel that it should only be warranted if it is an "Eye for an Eye." Only one who kills should be killed, most certainly.

To HCat: You will have to go back to those postings made on this string around the beginning of June to really know what I'm up to. But I assure you that whatever it is I'm up to is mostly innocent. I'm just another squirrel trying to find a nut!

Speakeasy42
28 August 2008 at 06:20

This PARTICULAR web blog string whatever has been dedicated by the host as a place where we all can consentrate on the topic of "HELPING ELIZABETH FRITZL".

If you google "Helping Elizabeth Fritzl" this site will be listed among a few other results. Not as many as are dedicated to the search for information about the disposition, plight, and incarceration of Joseph Fritzl, I might add.

I stand among others blogging here when I say that anyone's opinion of how best to serve the interests of the victims will be much more appeciated, by me at least, than any discussion on how to deal with JF.

There are other places for that.

But that's just me.

amiablehermit
28 August 2008 at 06:23

Speakeasy:

Really there is no need to apologize for anything. I'll tell you something, if you are feeling the least bit embarassed -- someone on a totally unrelated site thought, not just that I was male, but a grizzly, old military officer with suspicious connections, trying to recruit the faithful to freemasonry or some nonsense like that. I am happy to say that we have sorted that out now. LOL! So, you see, while people can come up with some very strange imaginings, you have to wonder if they are seeing some truth, too. LOL. Actually, the poor fellow has confused me with my boss, who is exactly what my friend imagines. Why?

Because, just to complicate matters more, we somehow manage to take on the characteristics of people we know -- and for most people this is a totally unconscious process. Hmmm? We assume a little bit of wo we know.

What in the world would that mean about Elizabeth? I mean, she is the fascinating component here. What in the world, how in the world, why in the world, and other imponderable questions as to simply how and why she survived....

Speakeasy42
28 August 2008 at 08:08

To the NEWSTATESMAN:

I would like to suggest that a formal journalistic investigation be done about this horrific crime in order to find out a single fact. Namely, the number of minutes that Elizabeth Friltzl spent locked away and tortured by her father so that a support ribbon may be created with that number displayed.

Speakeasy42
28 August 2008 at 10:14

LOL. Yes, I think I should probably admit that I placed a definate male connotation to the word "Hermit".

I would really like to know what you think about my understanding of "unconditional love". Please try to understand that I would never want to disreguard any of my children for any reason and as a father I concentrate each day on how best to protect them.

That being said I have also always viewed my commitment to protecting my wife and our union and it's sanctity as being just as important as the safety of our children, not just for my own happiness and her wellfare but ultimately for my children as well.

You see, I'm the man. I'm the father. I was placed in charge of my family by God/nature. I'm most responsible in the end for it's success or failure. I disagree with the notion that it's both of our fault.

Both God, and society, as well as a good husband and father, place a great responsibility upon a wife/mother. Her job is to nurture, care for, and protect thier children and her family. A good mother, I feel, has been given an inate sense of duty to protect her children.

In all the different forms of life on our planet the mother has been given an instinct to protect her own, at any cost. Try to take a bear cub from it's mama. I dare ya. Not even papa bear is that dumb.

In reference to Rosemarie Fritzl, people who think that she had to have been aware of this because of the amount of time involved are asking me to consider that Joseph Fritzl was able to control his wife to such an extent that he could take, and utterly destroy thier daughter, with her knowledge, and she just said ok.

Yes, I know that I'm probably ruffling alot of feathers when I say that because I am the man I am in charge. But I don't think I'm the one who is confused here.

You see, like my wife, I've been given a great responsiblity too. Not just to protect and provide for my children, but to provide for and satisfy the needs of my wife, as well.

This is where alot of guys go wrong and why women now have had to basically take over both roles. Joseph Fritzl was a tirant to his family. That is not what God/nature intended. Mom can't be dad. Dad can't be mom. It's too much for one person, reguardless of gender. That's the real and natural difference between a man and a woman and I feel that it's very important to recognize that.

Too many men have never learned that being in charge doesn't mean "I'm lord, you servant." It only means that I am "in charge of" or more appropriately, "responsible for" the health, welfare, safety and happiness of my family. Especially my wife because the healthier she is the better she is able to do her job, which is to raise our legacy in a manner that will honor us, our family, and the community we live in.

A good father's personal gredo should be "Happy wife, happy life". Being "in charge" of anything has a connotation of "work", I believe. The bigger the responsibility, the harder the work.

What I'm saying is a man needs to see that in order for this marriage and family thing to work, especially when kids are involved, his wife's happiness should always be what is most important, if he cares about his children's future and his "legacy". A man's wife should be his greatest asset and his most prized "pocession". And if she can be made to feel like she is her husband's greatest concern and that she and her children are his life's priority, she will stand be him forever. If you can't keep your whole family content then you've failed not only as a husband, but as a fatherand as a man.

It's obvious that Elizabeth's motherly instincts are very pure and unbelievably strong. Was she taught that by her mother, or did she just inherit it genetically.

Rosemarie took in her daughter's children and raised them as best as she could. It is assumed that they have all lived somewhat normal lives so far.

I honestly feel that Elizabeth was abducted by her father and stolen from her mother. She was imprisoned so that her mother would never know.

A sadistic and ferotious beast, desquised as a papa bear, stole mama bear's cub while she was caring for the others.

amiablehermit
28 August 2008 at 10:43

Well, without getting into too much detail, I was/am, for much of my son's life, a single parent. LOL.

I can understand your "hermit" confusion, Speakeasy. I happen to know about and respect the desert fathers of the Early Church, though. I enjoy reading about their lives and emulating some of that.

What could I possibly say about your understanding of unconditional love? You need no validation from anyone about your understanding. I certainly have no diasagreement about it.

There is so much that we do not know about the Fritzls. Rosemarie is a big blank when it comes to information. I think many things are possible. But I have siad this before -- I don't think she is very smart -- at the very least she certainly did not display much intelligence when it came to her husband or her daughter.Whatever she may be innocent of, she is certainly in many ways, a dim bulb.

kathryn
29 August 2008 at 09:42

Hello again. I haven't checked this link for a few days, and now I return to a whole long discussion and lots of interesting revelations, and thoughtful commentary. We begin to learn about each other even as we discuss and worry about the Fritzls... Our level-headed, clever Hermit is a woman and the mother of a son... Speakeasy is a man who cherishes his wife and children... I like knowing more about you all. After all, we have known each other since April or thereabouts--about as long as Elisabeth Fritzl has had fresh air to breathe--and I enjoy reading your varying viewpoints. I still think about the Fritzls every day... I think as time goes by, the horror of their underground life actually intensifies for me. Not that any of this is about me! But it HAS had an enormous effect on me. Whenever I try to imagine their life underground, I feel like I have to go outside and run around the block. I haven't ever been claustrophobic, but I prefer to be outdoors now more than ever (my garden thanks me!). I look at my sons and think about poor Stefan who cannot stand upright... What was it like to be a little boy down there, never being able to run or ride a bike? How did the children fill their days? I look at my daughters . . . Do you think maybe Elisabeth made her kids a schedule? Lights on... It's a new day! One hour of sit-ups and stretching. Then breakfast. Then reading. Then writing. Then watching TV. Lunch... Cleaning the dungeon... washing dishes... Next learning about history, science, math . . . whatever Elisabeth liked best at school. Then storytime about Life on Earth over cups of tea and a snack... More TV, then singing. Playtime with Scrabble and cards? Watch the fish... Time for bed... oh, wait. Who's that at the door? Time for a visit from Grandpa... (And Repeat.) (for nearly 10,000 days). Were there ever surprises or was every moment mundane and predictable? How do people live when they cannot strive to reach goals, make plans, be spontaneous? Could ELisabeth provide some form of those experiences for her underground family? I long to know.

I wonder if Elisabeth actually has the best chance of adapting to life again because she had memories of it all the years underground. She had concepts and a context for so much that her underground chldren can't fathom. And I think little Felx may in time also adapt to his new life. But my heart aches for Stefan and for Kerstin.

Yes, your comments on the ferocity we mothers feel for our children ring true to me, Speakeasy. (By the way, you pegged me correctly. I'm a woman (my name makes that clear, probably), and a mother-- my husband and I have 5 kids (by birth and by adoption). But as for Rosemarie . . . I agree that she is not very bright. Downtrodden, perhaps abused, certainly ill-treated--yes. Probably feeling that she has utterly failed as a mother. At least that is how Elisabeth herself seems to be viewing her mother now, as the news media reports that ELisabeth is furious because her mother did not protect her back when she was 11 and the molestation began... and that, even though she knew from the letters that the three 'upstairs children' were her grandchldren, she had them call her "Mama.

amiablehermit
30 August 2008 at 00:22

For those here that would like to expand the discussion and get better acquainted, may I suggest that we form a tribe at tribe.net? At this vast site, anonymity can be preserved to whatever extent you wish, and the service is free. Let me know if you are interested, and I will set up the tribe.

amiablehermit
30 August 2008 at 02:03

I was thinking about it, and I had to laugh -- not at you Speakeasy -- this has happened elsewhere before, with remarkably humorous results. But I thought it was crystal clear after talking about using a parasol against the news media that I am female.

kathryn
31 August 2008 at 07:36

I would be interested in a smaller discussion group, and the chance to get acquainted. But I'm not familiar with tribe.net. So, AmiableHermit, yes. Please set it up and tell me how to join you!

Speakeasy42
31 August 2008 at 08:10

I am not opposed to another way of communicating other than here, Hermit. Honestly, I would like that very much. We should keep this string for just open talk focusing on Elizabeth and her family. Whatever you suggest about that is fine with me.

So, there has been some spin about the upstairs kids' life with gramma that would have us think that gramma, by having the kids call her mamma, wanted on some level to forget about Elizabeth. The media has found out that the upstairs kids called their gramma, "mamma".

Personally, Katryn, I see this as nothing more than conjecture. People are trying to put two and two together in order to make four. I think an open interview with the family would reveal a different reality completely.

Although I would not be shocked to find out that the upstairs kids knew VERY little about their real mother, I still am left to understand, by all accounts, that the upstairs children have known all along who their real mother is.

And because they were brought up from the dungeon before they were old enough to be aware of thier previous surroundings or future plight (ie. as babies), I'm left to understand that they were told the same story that everyone else thought was the truth. That thier mother abandoned them for a lifestyle that would not allow the kids to be with her.

Elizabeth didn't want them.

But even if the upstairs kids thought that Rosemarie was their real mother, it wouldn't prove that Rosemarie knew all along that Joseph actually had their daughter locked up in the basement with two, and later three, other grandchildren!

It's just too much of a leap, for me. I know that there is a huge rage of disbelief focused around Rosemarie right now. I know my defense of her is pretty unpopular.

But Kathryn, I hated every member of my family for a long time after the trial was all over. My sisters (they visited him in jail, or wrote back to him), my mom (for not noticing that something was wrong during that whole time), and my first wife (for bringing it out in the open and causing everyone to have to deal with it).

When I was young, and the abuse was still happening to me, I hid it from my mom out of shame and fear. Elizabeth was locked up with no way of telling anyone! And after the abuse was over, but before I had reported it to anyone, I secretly resented my mom, even though I unwittingly helped to make sure she was always unaware of anything being wrong. Consequently, I had to deal with alot of feelings about that.

Later (and even still sometimes), I was frequently angry with her because of how difficult it seems for her, as well as others, to comprehend and understand what I go though in coping with whats happened to me.

So the fact that Elizabeth is angry with her mother should not cause people to assume that it might mean that Rosemarie knew all along that actually her husband has been keeping thier daughter in a purpose built dungeon, under her very nose, savagely raping her at his whim, inpregnating her six times over a span of 24 years, choosing to bring some of the offspring upstairs for her to raise as her own while choosing to leave still others entombed in their grave from birth without any hopes of EVER seeing the light of day!

The more I think about it the more convinced I am that Rosemarie had no idea about the ACTUAL thruth of what was happening to her daughter.

Speakeasy42
31 August 2008 at 08:22

I forgot to add a comment about Elizabeth's anger toward her mother.

Assuming that the news you read is accurate about Elizabeth actually being angry with Rosemarie, we should try to understand that Elizabeth is gonna be pretty pissed off about alot of things, on a regular basis, for a long time. And she should be.

amiablehermit
31 August 2008 at 08:27

Go to tribe.net, sign up, search for amiablehermit under browse people search, pull up my profile and send me a message.

Speakeasy42
31 August 2008 at 09:57

This guy, Fritzl, really put the screws to his entire family, as well as the surrounding community, and even his country's image. He has caused so much damage on so many different levels, it's impossible to count! The ripples extend all the way out to people like those that initially investigated Elizabeth's disappearance over two decades ago, Joseph's friends and colleagues, Elizabeth's old friends and classmates, the guy who's face is blurred in the photos next to Fritzl vacationing, the city inspector that approved the building permit to dig a "bomb shelter", the guy who helped Fritzl install the 2-ton door, and even people like us.

Stop for a moment and try to picture Rosemarie as COMPLETELY INNOCENT. Now try to see what it must be like for her to have to deal with not only the knowledge that she let her daughter and grandchildren (who are actually her step-kids?) down so terribly, but that she is being torn apart in the press. Imagine being blamed for something like this when you really had no knowledge of anything!

I'm absolutely sure that the local and federal police have initially probed deep into questioning this woman about her knowledge of this crime. To the extent that they have cleared her of any wrong doing.

If the hospital where they are all being cared for had any notion that Rosemarie was partly to blame for this, they would have said something, at least to the authorities.

If Elizabeth or the cellar children had seen her in the dungeon they would know that she knew about what was happening and would have turned on her by now.

If Rosemarie was aware of what was happening or actively involved in anyway then I should think that she would have been just as afraid of the world finding out as her husband obviously was. She would have helped him to keep it secret. She would have possibly refused to allow Kirsten to go to hospital, ultimately preventing they're escape.

She would have had to go into the cellar at some point. For some reason. Even if she was smart enough to not go into the dungeon in order to keep Elizabeth from discovering that her mother knew where she was and what was happening, the fact that Joseph purchased virtually all of the supplies the dungeon family needed in remote stores away from the nearby community proves that he was hiding them not only from the local community but from his family as well.

If Rosemarie knew, then there would not be the need to hide even the purchase of clothes, which could have been easily mixed up with the usual purchases that they would normally make.

He would have not needed to hide the basement, or his activities there, from his wife. She thought he was working on plans and engineering work, as well as other normal chores. Not raping their daughter.

Whats her motive to do something like this? Anger of some sick kind? I doubt it. Joseph had a clear motive and it's not that he is mentally insane or demonically possessed. His motive was good old-fashioned perverted incest and physical control coupled with a strong desire to keep it secret from the world. Especially his wife and other family members. He wanted to keep it secret not only to protect himself from arrest, but more importantly to preserve it so that he could continue it. He didn't want to let her go. Not because he was afraid of her telling on him, but because he wanted to keep doing it to her. It gave him power. He was addicted to the control. It was his prefered way of having sex. We know this from the reports of his perverted dealings with the local brothel and the opinions of him shared by the people who worked there.

I see how it would appear that this Rosemarie is pretty clueless and "dim". And even I have a hard time understanding how she could have tolerated living with someone who obviously must have been extremely controling and secretive, distant and cruel, damanding and sadistic. But if she was unaware of anything that was really going on concerning Elizabeth, then what did she really know about her husband. Probably only what he displayed to her. Was it enough to warrant her leaving him and protecting her family and herself from him? Probably. But was it enough to make her stupid for not thinking him capable of what he actually did? Hitler slaughtered millions of people before the world actually found out what he was up to. Even his own country didn't know the worst of it.

Speakeasy42
31 August 2008 at 10:12

If Rosemarie knew about what Joseph was up to concerning Elizabeth, then she would actually be a worse person than even Joseph. The idea of allowing something like that to go on for so long, affecting more new lives as the years pass, knowing how awful and sadistic his behavior must of been like toward their own child, would insinuate that she must have derived some actual sick pleasure from knowing it.

amiablehermit
31 August 2008 at 12:50

Yes, Speakeasy. Exactly.

kathryn
31 August 2008 at 19:11

Hello Speakeasy. You are very eloquent in your reasoning about Rosemarie's probable innocence. I don't doubt it either! I didn't mean to say that I thought, because she allowed or encouraged the 'upstairs children' to call her Mama, that she was part of her husband's dungeon torture. Not at all! Please don't misunderstand me. There are many reasons that Monika, Lisa and Alexander might start calling Rosemarie 'Mama'--one of them being simply that it's more normal for kids to be raised by their mom rather than their grandmother, and since they believed their real mother had abandoned them at birth, why not, then, call someone else mom and claim her that way in their hearts? No, I completely understand the kids' calling her Mama and why Rosemarie's allowed it, or even encouraged it. It is clear to me that she believed the kids to have been abandoned, and so why not let them call her Mama? I think Elisabeth's anger is not really, at its core, about the issue of what name her kids called Rosemarie... but is instead much much deeper, and centered on the fact that Rosemarie did not protect little Elisabeth from her abusive father's molestation, violence, and ultimate horror. Maybe it is unfair of Elisabeth to expect that Rosemarie could have known... because --as you point out--josef fritzl hid his double life well for a long, long time. He was a master of it. But there's nothing FAIR about this case for anyone at all. You know from your own sad experience that Elisabeth quite rightly probably feels that SOMEONE should have known and helped and stopped it and saved her and her children ... It must be inconceivable that no one could have known. She must feel she was completely abandoned by everyone who ever knew her. Rosemarie, on the other hand, must feel such a terrible guilt that she DIDN'T know. And so many other, less pivotal, people also feel guilty. And yet how can we--how can anyone-- ever GUESS at such horror? I was thinking about this last night when I went to bed and I heard a thud under our house... At first I thought: "Raccoons?" then I worried: "Intruder?" When I didn't hear any further noise, I turned over and was nearly asleep... and then I thought, "what if our neighbor is keeping people locked in an underground dungeon?" But did I actually go check? No, because it was such a ludicrous notion. No one in Amstetten would EVER have thought of such a thing. I'd be much much more likely to believe that a girl ran off to join a cult, and brought her babies back to be raised by her parents than to think she was under the back yard in a dungeon prison. Anyway, all of this is just to clarify that I don't think Rosemarie knew about Josef's evil dungeon. She is not guilty of that. But it's incredible for me that she would ever stay in such a marriage with such a man --even the man she thought she knew. She was very weak and downtrodden--or else in major denial about many many things in her relationship with him. But I guess it is a good thing she did stay with him, though, so that there was someone to take care of the three upstairs children when they were brought to her...

AmiableHermit, thanks for the tribe info. Let's see if it works!

Speakeasy42
31 August 2008 at 23:05

Sorry Kathryn, for going on about Rosemarie and seeming to think that maybe you, or AmiableHermit, or anyone else believed that Rosemarie had a hand in her daughter's tragic experience. I never thought that either of you were actually of that opinion. I'm just posting my thoughts about what could have happened.

Putting my two cents worth out there for the masses.

I remember the response you wrote two months ago about how my postings had helped you to see how innocent Rosemarie probably is.

AmiableHermit wrote a comment back on the 22nd of May that really sums up my opinion very well. And that was before I had even joined the discussion.

I haven't seen any serious or in-depth news about what happened exactly when Elizabeth disappeared, maybe there's been more updates I'm not aware of. But that's where everything went wrong, in my book.

Even if the entire family had absolutely no clue as to where Elizabeth really was, the notion that everyone stopped trying to help their loved-one shows selfish disreguard for people whom one should care about.

Everyone around her was guilty of not caring enough about their family, especially Rosemarie. It's a wonder why poor Elizabeth didn't come out of there kicking swinging, and screeming at her family's utter gullability!

Strawberry
01 September 2008 at 07:26

One of the problems of others acting on behalf of Elizabeth was that Fritzl was so smart at manipulating the thoughts of others. In the process of explaining her absence Josef also maligned her. She has upset us all (his tears also) by her selfish, ungracious and totally rejecting behaviour of joining a cult and making it clear she wanted nothing more to do with any of us.

The only way to get around this, as far as I can see is, to know someone well enough, through your own personal relationship with them to question whether or not your experience of a person accords with what someone else is telling you about them. I don't know Elizabeth but I'd like to feel that if I was her Mother, sister, brother I might have had an inner voice that told me something didn't quite add up. For instance, why would Elizabeth go and join an exclusory cult when she always said she wanted to do so and so when she was older. Or she never liked any kind of authority over her, why would she choose a cult. Weird. Knowing a person surely protects you from believing outright that someone has done something, when all your knowledge of that person would tell you otherwise.

I recognise that Josef had an authority over the whole family to the point that his children probably couldn't all wait to leave home and get on with their lives away from him. However, I am surprised that different family members would not have got together to discuss the "Elizabeth issue" without him and started to question the situation. All I can think of is that the connections between all the family members may have been rather weak. A pity, as with all those family members (six children from the original family) had they communicated effectively , it could have been a strength.

Speakeasy42
01 September 2008 at 08:49

Very perceptive point indeed, Strawberry. You have put your finger on the heart of the issue, I think.

Now, I try to keep in mind the letters that Elizabeth was forced to write, and try to realize how much those letters must have influenced her family's perception of what was happening. It may be that Joseph had done a better job of hiding his tracks than we can imagine. But I still feel like someone, maybe a sibling, would have wanted to reach out to her even though they were told she didn't want them. Why, after 24 years and three children had someone not gone looking to reunite?

The police should have certainly been preceptive enough to smell a rat, though. I wrote about how Elizabeth's personality probably didn't fit the profile of a run away. You mentioned how it may have not looked like right to people who knew her. I wonder if during the investigation it was apparent that everyone interviewed found that point odd as well.

We may never know.

amiablehermit
01 September 2008 at 09:25

No, we probably won't.

I know. The whole notion of no one looking into her disappearance any better than they did seems very queer, although the point has been made that no one was imagining her locked in a cellar by her father. I mean, it usually isn't the first thing to pop into your head when a teenager vanishes. But the whole blind & deaf business seems really odd. At that point, I do sort of wind up having some questions about the community, too. It is as though no one really cared that much. erk. I cannot imagine Elizabeth not imagining that herself. But what I don't want to imagine is how she must have imagined it.

The world totally abandoning you and betraying you in the process. What would this do to a person?

Michel
01 September 2008 at 15:28

Rot in Hell, Josef Fritzl!

amiablehermit
03 September 2008 at 04:20

Yes, well, a number of us share your feeling, but this is actually a post about Elizabeth and her family.

kathryn
03 September 2008 at 09:06

I was pleased to read today that the three 'upstairs' children, Monika, Lisa, and Alexander, have been able to go back to 'real' school. Not the same one they went to before, but somewhere new. Apparently they are being welcome--but their mother says that if it becomes a media circus, they'll be pulled out again. I like that she is feeling strong enough to make conditions and threats!

kathryn
04 September 2008 at 18:14

Well, so much for the hope of 'back to school' for Lisa, Monika and Alexander; today's report is that the children will continue to be educated at home after "international news media" (probably British and German tabloids) stormed the local schools, lying in wait. Poor kids.

amiablehermit
04 September 2008 at 22:04

From the Telegraph:

"Meanwhile, the three incest children who had a normal life with Fritzl and his wife Rosemarie, 69, are unable to return to school due to the immense interest by international press reporters, who besieged the schools in the area expecting the arrival of Lisa, 15, Monika, 14 and Alexander, 12.

A school authorities spokesperson said that due to the pressure from the media the children would be receiving private tuition at their home at a secret location close to the Amstetten hospital where they had been receiving psychological counselling, despite earlier reports that they would be returning to school."

Most unfortunate. Let's pass out some parasols.

amiablehermit
04 September 2008 at 22:11

Meanwhile, however, the prosecutors believe that they have enough evidence to charge JF with manslaughter for Michael's death. Life imprisonment is the maximum sentence.

Speakeasy42
05 September 2008 at 00:48

That is good news

amiablehermit
08 September 2008 at 21:44

Apparently, a similar case has surfaced in Poland: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7605119.stm.

Strawberry
10 September 2008 at 12:14

amiable hermit and Kathryn - I now have access again to tribe.net and can read posts but it does not allow me to post. I hope this is resolved soon.

It appear Elizabeth has spoken of her ordeal in the cellar. Whether it was as part of the investigation into the case and the press got hold of it or whether she chose to tell what she did to the media is uncertain. The Daily Mail carried the story. As expected Fritzl's behaviour with the family was unpleasant and all about power.

amiablehermit
11 September 2008 at 05:56

Yeah, what else would one expect?

My understanding is that her statement was for the investigation. Well, I am glad that she is talking about it. I think that sounds like the healthy thing to do.

kathryn
11 September 2008 at 22:31

I was also glad to read that Elisabeth is talking about her ordeal. Glad for those of us who keep worrying about her, and especially glad for her, because as you say, A.Hermit, it sounds like a healthy thing to do. She may be afraid of having people know her business, but I think she would be gratified to know of the immense world-wide support she has. No one--at least no one sane!-- blames her or is anything but horrified, and everyone longs to hear that she and her family are healing as much as is possibly possible. I thought her comments about her children's developing their own wills (and her father's attempts to crush them) especially interesting. It sounds as if she and her children bonded together against the 'bad guy' and talked about him when he wasn't there. And it seems she encouraged them to speak their own minds and develop their own strengths as much as possible when he wasn't there. On the other hand, he came at least three times a week--bringing much needed food, news, a glimpse into another world . . . and terror. How horrible for them to have to need him so much, and to hate him so much. He really did set himself up to be a sort of all-powerful demi-god. So sick...

amiablehermit
13 September 2008 at 05:39

Yes, well, we very well did not expect him to be a charmer with them. It is so off the chart. I wouldn't want to control anyone. Live nd let live. And this guy can't stand it. It all has to be his mirror. It is beyond sick.

amiablehermit
07 October 2008 at 07:27

Two things. There was no time-release mechanism found for the door. He is obviously accelerating in his aging process.

The latter is just desserts. The former ~ well, who is surprised that he lied about that?

amiablehermit
07 October 2008 at 07:29

Sorry, some of my post was not printed:

"Fritzl was taken from his jail cell in St. Polten in a white Volkswagen mini-bus. Three guards were assigned to him.

Austrian media reported that he was reserved at first, before becoming animated as he explained to prosecutor Christiane Burkheiser the workings of the 300kg door which kept Elisabeth and her children in captivity.

Onlookers said he look thinner than before and had lost a lot of hair.'

kathryn
09 October 2008 at 01:36

It is my fervent hope that his time in prison is not agreeable to him, and that he may get a glimmer--although I'm quite sure it won't be more than a mere glimmer--of what being locked up might have been like for his children. Of course he has been in prison only since April, and in prison he is presumably not being sexually abused, so immediately there is no real comparison. Plus, he most certainly has a window in his cell, and access to fresh air and exercise. So he's much better off than Elisabeth and the children were. And yet he's growing thin and bald because of the stress and misery. Good, I say! Long may it continue.

amiablehermit
09 October 2008 at 05:19

Precisely. Just natural just desserts.

His trial is supposed to be in December. That is not far off, and it looks like the Austrian investigators have been thorough ~ they certanily have been back to the scene quite a bit. I wonder if Austria will get creative with charges and sentencing.

Hey -- do you notice that this site is now limiting the number of characters you are allowed to type? LOL! Maybe it decided we are a bunch of gas bags! ~Or~ maybe it is just I.....

kathryn
09 October 2008 at 06:30

I had not noticed . . . because my longer

commentaries have been on our other site. But a

word limit prompts one to be frugal and concise... Not

such a bad idea, really. I guess we can just post--and

then post again to finish our thoughts! And we may

have to come back to posting here because the tribe

site is down so often, and increasingly full of errors.

And speaking of ELisabeth Fritzl, I think the media

silence, though frustrating for those of us who have

been so worried about her, is probably a good thing.

Perhaps by now she and her children have changed

their last name and moved out into the world...

amiablehermit
10 October 2008 at 23:59

Perhaps, but I actually rather doubt it.

One of the difficulties with interpreting the press, apart from having to weed out contradictions and vagueries, is that it seems necessary to read between the lines and remember the substance of previous articles. So, I am thinking about early things, such as the family will need life-long care, and how the progress for the older cellar children is slow and awkward, etc., etc. I know we would like this all to have a happy ending, but I think that will be slow-won and, perhaps, not what we would conventionally consider a happy ending. I have no clue as to what people who have experienced what they have would consider happiness. They are who they are, and I certainly hope and pray for them the resolutions that they want and/or need. But those desires might not be ones I would necessarily imagine. I would imagine what I would imagine if I were in the situation. But it is so totally alien that I really know I cannot accurately imagine it.

It will be interesting to see what, if anything different, will materialize during the upcoming JF trial. We may learn more from the reports of that.

Michel
13 October 2008 at 14:51

ROT IN HELL JOSEF FRITZL , YOU ANIMAL.

kathryn
16 October 2008 at 19:43

yes, I'm looking forward to hearing about the trial. I

can't imagine he really has any defense at all. He was

sane, he was cruel beyond cruel, and they'd still be

down in the cellar if Kerstin had not become deathly

ill. That he did take her to the hospital is one of the

few sparks of contradictory goodness I can grant him.

That, and the small comforts he allowed his captives--

like television, light, an aquarium, running water, a

flushing toilet. (Why DID he let them have these

things? Was it just to keep them from going

completely insane? Because he wouldn't enjoy

raping and tormenting people beyond caring? I can't

figure out his psychology beyond seeing that he

wanted ultimate power.)

amiablehermit
19 October 2008 at 08:08

JF has been delcared sane and fit to stand trial.

We can put to rest the issue of his being crazy now. The court-appointed psychiatrist has diagnosed him as having a "severe personality disorder", but sane now and at the time he committed his atrocities. I think we can safely say that "severe personality disorder" is a clinical euphemism for Depravity.

Lily belle
25 October 2008 at 06:00

Its very interesting to read everyone's thoughts on the Fritzl case but I think we dont comprehend the depravity of this demonic personage. He let them suffer continually & delighted in it. E birthed those children ALONE (he gave he books on the topic & brought antiseptic solutions) while upstairs he was possibly giggling in delight imagining her labor pain screams, the children & her all endured the agony of toothaches, my dear Lord who can experience THAT & only a true sadist which is what he is would want someone to suffer so without getting them help. He had absolutely NO love for even one of them,not to want to see your grandaughter & her brothers romp in a park, roll in the grass, make a snowman. All these people had to be sacraficed to his LUST & sadism. They suffered mentally & physically every day of their lives! He even taunted them "see how long you will last without me" I would have murdered the creep down there with the rest of us. E deserves all the glory for waiting it out. Bless you sweethearts!

kathryn
27 October 2008 at 03:35

Lily Belle--yes, his sadism should net him a life

sentence in prison, at the very least, for each of his

victims--and those include the 'upstairs' children as

well. I think the Austrian officials are going to try very

hard to make sure his trial concludes with his being

locked away in a psychiatric hospital for the rest of his

life. Even that is better than he allowed for his

children--but the full extent of the law in civilized

countries cannot ever match the depravity of the

sadists it incarcerates. I am much less interested in

the eventual fate of Josef Fritzl than very eager to hear

how Elisabeth and the children fare. They have been

free just about six months now.

amiablehermit
16 November 2008 at 06:41

Or maybe not. Reports do not jive. They may still be at the psychiatric hospital. It doesn't matter really as long as they are receiving the care they need.

Inmates in the prison want to do the worst to him, which says quite a bit about his image there. On the other hand, it seems only right that the worst of the worst would evoke even the passions of criminals. It could be that "throwing him to the dogs" would be justice. Perhaps not. Perhaps it is better to put him where he fears to be eaten by a criminally insane cannibal that he fears the most.

Oh, btw, did you read that JF wanted to sell tickets to people to visit his dungeon?

kathryn
05 December 2008 at 20:29

The news today is that Austrian officials are having to

delay Josef Fritz's trial because they cannot find the 8

jurors --only eight!--needed. Jurors are using

whatever loopholes they can, pleading family

commitments, etc., to avoid having to serve in this trial.

Off record they have said they cannot stomach

hearing the details of his crimes. Interesting to me that

it's hard to find a 'jury of his peers' for Fritzl. No one

wants to be his 'peer.' And yet I hope that eight

stalwart, good people with strong stomachs will stand

up and agree to become jurors. The man needs to be

tried for his many crimes, and soon--so he can be

locked away and lose the limelight.