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All of us live by the logic of finance

Peter Wilby

Published 05 February 2009

Margaret Thatcher promised wealth for all in her new society. First, though, we all had to become capitalists. Peter Wilby on our long road to ruin

Sign of the times: the introduction of assured shorthold tenancies and a new type of mortgage for landlords sparked a buy-to-let boom

''Just as the Industrial Revolution transformed lifestyles, family relations and the very rhythm of existence, so has the financial revolution. All of us now live by the logic of finance''

We now know that Alistair Darling was not joking when he said last summer that we faced the worst economic crisis in 60 years. The fall in GDP is now the steepest since 1947. But that was a mere blip on the road to postwar recovery. We cannot be confident that the present crisis is similar, or that comparisons with the most recent recessions – in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s – are the right ones. Increasingly, politicians and economists recall the 1930s, with its grisly tales of bank closures, currency collapse, deflation and mass unemployment.

Yet none of these precedents provides adequate guidance. In the 1930s, the majority of Britons had not bought (I use the verb deliberately) into capitalism as they have over the past 30 years. Working-class families then accounted for three-quarters of the population, but less than one-fifth owned their home. Few held a bank account and almost none invested in shares or bonds, either directly or through pension schemes. For most of these families their only insurance was against funeral expenses.

Working-class life was based on cash, with surplus income, rare at the best of times, converted into portable possessions. Debt was widespread - it was sometimes the only way a working-class family, even if it had a regular income, could buy new clothes or shoes - but it was small-scale and local. Many were accustomed to existing on the margins of subsistence, and the dole, pitiful as it was, ensured that the Depression just made life more of a struggle. It did not frustrate ambition or aspiration, because most ordinary people had none. The consumer society had not been invented.

The Britain of 2009 is utterly different. The country was changed profoundly by Thatcherism (as the United States was changed by Reaganism), often in ways that were scarcely noticed at the time and are now forgotten.

The roots of the present crisis lie in the 1980s and early 1990s, but the effects of these years are only now becoming evident. At the time, politicians and economists explained that we were entering a post-industrial age. In future, the most successful countries would earn their living from services, not from the production of goods. Given the history and reputation of the City of London, Britain, it was said, was particularly well placed to lead in financial services.

Finance became the country's fastest-growing industry, expanding at 7 per cent a year on average, and dragging in its wake associated functions such as public relations and law.

The implications went far beyond a change in the economic structure. Just as a society based on industry favoured companies that assured themselves a steady supply of raw materials, so did one based on finance favour companies that assured a steady supply of money from the world's credit markets. Just as industry once required strong domestic markets if it were to flourish overseas, so did finance.

Above all, just as the Industrial Revolution transformed lifestyles, family relations, personal expectations and the very rhythm of existence, so did the financial revolution.

For all of us, the logic of finance has become ubiquitous, from the cradle to the grave. New Labour's "baby bonds" encourage parents, on a child's birth, to invest in a trust fund. Students take out loans to finance their higher education, a device that was preferred over a graduate tax precisely because it compels young people to consider their courses as "investments" with "rates of return". A home is no longer just a place to live, love and raise a family but a speculative investment, a source of security for credit, or "equity" that may be "released"; it turns all of us, as Martin Wolf, the Financial Times commentator, has put it, into "highly leveraged speculators in a fixed asset". With the decline of the state old-age pension (now worth less, as a proportion of average earnings, than when it was introduced in 1909) and, outside the public sector, the almost complete disappearance of pensions based on final salaries ("defined benefit" schemes), millions will depend on the vagaries of the bond and share markets for a decent income in old age.

Deregulation, enhanced by the internet, requires consumers to search for better "deals" on power supplies, car insurance, mortgages, savings rates, phone charges and so on. Social scientists have coined the word "financialisation" to describe this new world, as they used "industrialisation" to describe the old. As Essex University's Robin Blackburn has put it, financialisation "encourages households to behave like businesses, businesses to behave like banks, and banks to behave like hedge funds".

The new order followed the collapse in the 1970s of the postwar economic and social consensus, known as Keynesianism. Trade unions were weakened, partly by legislation, partly by the decline of heavy manufacturing industry. Labour could no longer drive a hard bargain.

Capital, assisted by deregulation of money movements across borders, held the whip hand. Under the Anglo-Saxon economic model, employers could now hold down wages - if necessary by relocating or threatening to relocate abroad - shed jobs and require longer hours and/or more productivity from their workforces. Faced with the devaluation of their labour, working people had to try and get a slice of the capitalist action. Money, they had to learn, no longer stopped with the wages generated from employment. As Randy Martin, the New York University public policy specialist, puts it in his illuminating book Financialisation of Daily Life (2002), "what once belonged to the workaday world beds down with leisure and domesticity".

This was exactly what Margaret Thatcher wished for. Once, western governments tried to subjugate the working class. The governments of the postwar era, by contrast, tried to pacify it. High wages, good working conditions, decent housing, stable employment, predictable pensions and, crucially, the power of a large state sector to head off deep recession through fiscal intervention delivered the workers’ consent to, even enthusiasm for, a capitalist economy. It also ensured the stable domestic markets that provided the basis for unprecedented economic growth. As the student rebels of 1968 understood, the workers were required not just to produce goods but to consume them, too.

Thatcher offered what you might call a "third way". The working class was not to be enslaved or tamed, but abolished. Everyone would become, in their private if not in their working life, a member of the bourgeoisie, owning a house, acquiring debt to improve themselves, trading in shares and bonds. With such financial commitments, they would be reluctant to sacrifice regular income by going on strike.

Better still, they would vote Conservative, or at least for an alternative party that accepted, as new Labour did, the broad principles of Thatcherism. The spectre of communism or socialism would be exorcised.

But was it possible to create mass capitalism when large sections of the population lacked capital? Could a new liberalised economy - free from the constraints of either government regulation or union bargaining strength - deliver the stable mass consumer markets of the previous 30 years? To these questions, housing, along with the wide availability of credit, was the central answer.

The sale of council-owned dwellings – the best-known of Thatcher’s housing policies – took more space in the Conservatives’ 1979 election manifesto than health, education or social security. At the time, 85 per cent of British voters favoured the policy and, given that the discounts on sale prices to long-term residents could be as high as 60 per cent, it seemed a rare example of the state offering something for nothing. But it was also a form of gerrymandering, as the effect of the policy was to break up the public housing estates that formed the basis of Labour Party mobilisation.

The sales generated £17.5bn over ten years. But local authorities were not allowed to use the revenues - or the proceeds of other taxes - to build new council housing. Moreover, government subsidies to council house rents were reduced in favour of means-tested benefits available to those who rented private as well as public housing. The result was to make council housing less affordable, with rents rising 40 per cent in real terms between 1979 and 1984, and, as it increasingly became a ghetto for those who lacked either the means or the aspiration to buy, less attractive to live in. In a decade, the proportion of the population who were owner-occupiers jumped from under 55 per cent to more than 65 per cent (it is now 70 per cent).

They were assisted by a second revolution: the easier availability of mortgages. Until the 1980s, nearly all mortgage lending to the public came from building societies. The societies' history went back to the late 18th century and they were specifically designed to allow working people to pool and save their resources in order to build and buy houses. The savers were known as "members" and, nominally at least, owned the societies. Loans, financed purely from savings, were largely restricted to members. If savings were insufficient to meet demand, borrowers had to wait, often for several months. A regular income of sufficient size to support repayments, as well as a deposit from one's own resources, was essential. A building society manager would usually insist on meeting the borrower personally. There was no significant competition: managers of the leading societies met monthly to agree their interest rates.

This system was swept away in the 1980s as the Tories allowed banks to enter the mortgage market. If banks were allowed to behave like building societies, the societies reasoned, they should be allowed to behave like banks. The Building Societies Act 1986 gave them the necessary flexibility, including more freedom to raise funds from the wholesale money markets rather than their own savers and to advance unsecured credit. Crucially, it also allowed them, if a majority of members voted in favour, to demutualise and actually to become banks.

Abbey National - which had broken the societies' interest rate cartel even before the 1986 act - was the first to take advantage of this provision and several more followed over the next decade, as members were tempted by lump-sum "windfalls" that bought them out of their ownership rights. Labour opposed the bill but without great passion or conviction. As Larry Elliott and Dan Atkinson point out in their latest book, The Gods That Failed (2008), deregulation of all kinds was sold with a leftish slant; regulation, once considered a device to protect the public, was now seen as a conspiracy against the public.

In 1986, at least one Labour MP, Austin Mitchell, saw "no great harm in more unsecured credit". A Tory MP proposed that all building societies should be required to demutualise within ten years; in other words, that they should be abolished. Institutions that had survived for 200 years were thus quietly dismantled. An entire model of popular saving was undermined.

Working-class communities had long saved for special needs, such as Christmas or holidays, through local "clubs", often centred on the neighbourhood pub, with a trusted elder, usually a skilled artisan, acting as treasurer. Others, known as "friendly societies" (based, as the name suggests, on personal relationships), provided help in times of ill-health or unemployment. The pre-1986 building societies could trace their lineage directly back to this tradition, which Clive Thornton, then chief general manager of the same Abbey National that so enthusiastically embraced the new era, once called the highest form of socialism. The model, though on a larger, more sophisticated scale and now patronised as much by the middle classes as by the working classes, was essentially unchanged: lending and borrowing was between people who knew and trusted each other (if less intimately than they once did), and the community met its needs from its own resources. It was a world away from the deregulated banking that allowed loans to be split and repackaged as "asset-backed securities" sold to unknown investors on the other side of the planet.

Who benefited from demutualisation? The answer can be summed up in two figures: between 1993 and 2000, chief executives of the demutualised societies got pay rises of 293 per cent against 65 per cent for chief executives of the remaining mutuals. An all-party group of MPs concluded in 2006 that consumers got inferior savings and home loan rates. What the original members gained in windfalls, they lost in higher charges. It is just one example of how financialisation involves a substantial invisible “tax” on nearly all the transactions that ordinary people are encouraged to make: a rake-off by managers in the financial services industry that can amount, according to some estimates, to 25 per cent. Blackburn calls it “insider looting on a grand scale”. No wonder Labour’s scheme for “stakeholder pensions” – intended for people on low or middling incomes who were no longer covered by final-salary schemes – flopped so badly. It set a 1 per cent cap on charges.

A second housing revolution followed legislation on the building societies. In 1988, a housing act introduced the assured shorthold tenancy, which gave tenants - who until then had been notoriously hard to evict - security for just six months, after which landlords need give them only two months' notice, without stating reasons. A second act in 1996, at the fag end of Tory rule, made the assured shorthold the default agreement for any new renting. Henceforth, new assured tenancies became very rare. Lenders and letting agents, recognising the opportunities, introduced a type of mortgage that would allow the small-scale landlord to be treated as an owner-occupier rather than a business.

The stage was set for the buy-to-let revolution, which would eventually involve more than half a million landlords, most owning four properties or fewer, "contributing" (if that is the right word) four times as much to the UK economy as the motor industry. It seemed, for a time, like a win-win for the country: the young, unattached and mobile got a plentiful supply of rentable property while their more settled elders (the median age of buy-to-let landlords is in the early forties) got a new income stream allied to an appreciating asset. All done by the magic of easier credit.

Housing became a national obsession. In an intensely competitive, deregulated mortgage market, lenders fell over each other to offer favourable terms and cared not at all if a high proportion of the money "leaked" to consumer spending. Retired couples were encouraged to remortgage their houses to fund holiday cruises or grandchildren's trust funds. Young couples of all classes stretched their resources to get "on the housing ladder", knowing councils had sold off the best of their housing stock and, for the aspirational family, a council home was no longer an option. Couples in their middle years saw buy-to-let as an additional stream of income, a hedge against redundancy or declining earning power. Second homes became increasingly fashionable. The Tory government abolished rates, which linked local taxes to house values, and substituted first poll tax and then council tax, which was only slightly less regressive. All this created a housing bubble which, in turn, made ownership of houses yet more desirable, even mandatory. Despite occasional crashes, there seemed no end to the upward surge in house values.


Housing thus allowed neoliberalism to deliver what, up to the 1970s, Keynesianism had delivered through high wages, secure employment and guaranteed pensions: buoyant, confident consumer markets and a population that had an interest in preserving the existing political and economic order. The new economic order could not otherwise bring to the masses the stable and rising living standards that it promised.

In the 1980s and early 1990s, it brought deep recession and chronic unemployment, the consequence of the instability of a globalised and deregulated financial system that allowed capital to cross national boundaries at a single computer keystroke. In Britain - and even more so in America - it brought gross inequality of incomes. Average US wages, in real terms, are no higher than they were 30 years ago and in Britain, too, they have stagnated over the past five years.

Credit, normally secured on rising house values but increasingly unsecured, was the rabbit in the neoliberals' hat, as they discovered during the recession of the early 1980s. In 1982, under Sir Geoffrey Howe's chancellorship, controls on hire-purchase, which strictly regulated the amount that could be borrowed, were abolished. Credit cards were then in their infancy, confined to sections of the younger and more affluent middle classes. Now, they are held by some two-thirds of the UK adult population, the highest proportion in Europe.

Colin Crouch, professor of governance and public management at Warwick University, describes the effect of this unprecedented liberalisation of credit as "privatised Keynesianism". J M Keynes argued that, when economies needed stimulating, governments should take on debt. Under the privatised version of his doctrine, individuals do the borrowing.

By the end of 2008, UK personal debt had risen to nearly £1.5trn, more than twice the national (public-sector) debt, and more than 170 per cent of disposable income. When the government incurs debt on a comparable scale - as it has done in its efforts to soften the effects of the recession - Tory politicians and economists ask how it can ever be paid off. No similar questions were asked as private debt ballooned.

The dominant political message of the past 30 years was that the private citizen was on his or her own. Risks previously borne by the state or employers were transferred to individuals, particularly in pension provision. Britain moved towards the stage where, beyond a bare minimum “safety net”, each of us was required to make provision for financial security and social care in our old age, for our children’s post-school education, for our housing, for our capacity to survive spells of unemployment or illness.

As Robin Blackburn puts it in his book Age Shock (2006), citizens "have to learn how to hedge risks and spread income over their life cycle". Each individual needed "to convert himself or herself into a two-legged cost centre and profit centre, with loans and insurance used to shift costs to where they can most advantageously be borne". Collective provision, whether through the state, local authorities, trade unions or mutuals such as the building societies, was discouraged. Like those who travelled on trains or buses, those who relied on such supports were failures.

Anybody who failed to buy shares in privatised utilities, to grab the offer of a windfall from demutualisation, or to take advantage of the tax breaks for owning private pensions or equities was a fool.

New Labour and, in the US, its Democratic equivalents, did little to question this philosophy or to reverse its effects. The idea that individuals should become, as the Blairite guru Anthony Giddens put it, "responsible risk-takers" was fundamental to the Third Way. The US Democrat Philip Bobbitt, nephew of the former president Lyndon B Johnson, explained with approval in his much-praised Shield of Achilles (2002) how the welfare state had been succeeded by the "market state", which abdicated responsibility for the well-being of its citizens and merely provided them with opportunities.

Financialisation is now unravelling, with the state striving desperately to shore it up. With financial institutions facing bankruptcy and credit markets frozen, it can no longer deliver prosperity - or the illusion of it - to the masses. Ruination, which capitalism so regularly visited on the Victorian middle classes and which was portrayed so often in the fiction of the period, threatens to envelop millions. The promises of neoliberalism are revealed for what they were: a sham. An ideology that seduced most of the population is broken. The psychic and political consequences are incalculable.



Milestones on the road to financial ruin



  • May 1979
    Margaret Thatcher becomes prime minister, promising "a property-owning democracy"

  • October 1980
    Housing Act gives five million council tenants right to buy homes at discounts of up to 33 per cent
  • 1982
    Geoffrey Howe relaxes rules on credit, making it easier to borrow

  • 1986
    As a housing boom gets under way, banks want a share of the action Building Societies Act begins process of relaxing rules on mortgage lending

  • September 1990
    Student loans introduced. By 2008 average student debt on graduation in England and Wales exceeded £17,000

  • April 2001
    Tony Blair announces "baby bonds" of up to £800 per child to be invested for their future

  • October 2008
    Bank of England reveals cost of crash in UK to have reached $2.8trn


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82 comments from readers

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 11:39

Peter, your history lesson comes across with the assumption that most people agreed with this NWO design.

I think the public became complacent with the housing trap. Through verious bubbles, parents have suffered the plight of their childern struggling to find a place to live...slaving as surfs, putting off having children, often, not having children, just so they can find a place in the NWO matrix.

"Better still, they would vote Conservative, or at least for an alternative party that accepted, as new Labour did, the broad principles of Thatcherism. The spectre of communism or socialism would be exorcised"

We in the West have not surfed in a system of capitalism. The reallity is, that we have a system of "communism with incentives and responsibilities"!

"J M Keynes argued that, when economies needed stimulating, governments should take on debt", yes, but he said this in the "context" that governments weren`t indebted. During the alledged "good times", LOL, we were staggeringly indebted.

Everyone should read the link below.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&c...

As I have stated before, this crisis was planned.

"How the welfare state had been succeeded by the "market state", which abdicated responsibility for the well-being of its citizens and merely provided them with opportunities"...opportunities backed by debt. LOL

The state has been repleced by the de facto market state alright. But this crisis has destroyed democracy, you can continue to live in denial and worship NWO effigies like Obama and Brown. Nothing is as it seems.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=9824

What follows this crisis? Totalitarian police state, de facto world government becoming a public reallity.. a global financial order, a more advanced NWO mechanism of farming human surfs.

continued

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 12:13

I have talked with legal people who represent well known people, so in the system with first hand experience, when they tell you "we are in a police state", you have to take them seriously. We are actively encouraged to SPY on each other, all sorts of minor officials can bug your phone, have you followed and filmed. Millions of CCTV cameras, total vehicle tracking and even the NotW can get away with phone bugging the establishment and were only stopped when they caught Brown plotting a legal coup against Blair...the judge accepted the guilty plea and wrapped the case up quickly, lest half of London find out the NotW had a muck file on them. Everything is in place.

I think we are heading towards a modern version of the 1900`s, we are losing access to legal aid, how long before the minimum wage gets dropped? We are going from a long working hours society, to one where you have no work, or you work super long hours, just to keep your boss in toffees. Women of child bearing age are being passed over in the employment market and so it goes on, creep, creep.

Society is a fickle creature and we are moving into an "every man for himself" mentality and if you are on the inside, a Mason, you`ll be ok, but for the rest it will be verging on a social bloodbath.

But everything will be OK, Jacqui has ordered 10,000 taser guns, that`ll do the TRICK.

writeon
05 February 2009 at 12:33

What we are witnessing today is the collapse of the last thirty years of Thacherite econmic and social policies, and the consequences will be dire, worse than the Great Depression, for a number of reasons.

However, I suppose it's worth mentioning that at the start of the 'years of illusion' and up until Labour capitulated, Thacherism wasn't spectacularly popular with the electorate. Even when it was most successful the Conservatives only received around 42% electoral support, and that's with a low turn-out. So a party with a substantial majority of the electorate against them, due to the unfairness and crudity of the British electoral system, which paradoxically provided them with large parliamentary majorities, was able to push through extreme policies against the wishes and interests of the majority of the people. And this is called democracy!

Also one shouldn't forget the revenues from North Sea oil and gas. Tens of billions which were squandered rather than used prudently.

Basically Thatcher sacrificed the real economy and Britain's industrial/manufacturing base, transferring societies wealth towards the financial sector, whose interests she represented. The core of Thatcherism was always, at heart, about the transfer of wealth, or what some would term 'class-warfare' from the many to the few. How was the possible? Simply because the few who benefitted from the Thatcher Revolution, were also the most powerful people in society, and under Thatcher they became even more powerful, and substantially richer.

Crucial to this strategy was Thacher's attack on the organised working-class. The 'robbery' also needed, and went hand in hand, the 'violence.' A deliberate policy of allowing unemployment to rise to teach the workers a lesson, and using the power of the state to crush the union movement. This culminated in the assault on the coal industry and the miners. Break the power of the miners and everyone else would fall into line, and it worked.

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 12:48

writeon

Its time to remove the mask...who was behind Thatcher, who was behind Bush and who is behind Obama...its the NWO, its time to break free from official history and MSM propaganda...stop the real power-brokers hiding behind elected muppets....sorry, puppets. :)

writeon
05 February 2009 at 13:00

Subsequently, with a crushed working-class and a cowed opposition, Thatchrism could deliver its economic miracle, only it was an illusion. A house of cards built on sand.

At the same time as the opposition was crushed, in the class-war, a cultural war was also being fought, and I think this aspect of the Thatcher era has been grossly under-valued. The voices and places where dissent could be expressed slowly began to fade away as the cultural clampdown spread throughout the media. For example, just look at television. It's a desert in relation to dissenting voices. It's virtually totally reserved for the voices of those who represent the state and business attitudes. The media became the servant of those who owned it and the state.

When was the last time there was play/film on television that had a 'socialist' perspective? So ideas that didn't conform to the dogma of Thatcherism were also made to vanish into the shadows and the margins. Art has lost it's balls and is now mostly bland entertainment.

Now the party's over, for good. We are entering an age of scarcity, the post-consmer society. The opium of comsumerism and materialism - costs, and now we are broke. The oil and gas has been wasted. There is nothing left to privatise or sell-off. The family silver has gone too.

How will one keep discipline in a far poorer society, a society that can't conjure wealth from nothing or borrow like it used to? For the last few years people have been led by the carrot, now it times for stick.

The authoritarian face of state/capitalism is revealing itself. For the last thirty years 'freedom' has been rationed by the price mechanism. We haven't just lived under raw, market capitalism, we've also developed a form of market democracy.

Thachrism was a profoundly undemocratic set of dogmas, to call it an ideology insults the meaning of the word. Democracy was slaughtered and sacrificed on the gawdy, shoddy, alter, of crass materialism. Now, it's time to pay the bill.

writeon
05 February 2009 at 13:10

Carl,

I suppose in a way your right, though we use a different vocabulary. Obviously Parliament isn't really in charge of the country. Does anything happen their anymore? The country is really run by Gordon Brown and a handful around him; or is it? Does Gordon Brown look or even sound like he's in charge of the country anymore, is that even possible given the type of society we live in?

If he was in charge, if we lived in a functioning democracy, where the people were not spectators, but participants and had power, surely the banks would listen to Brown and start lending again? Or is it that the real power in the country isn't in Downing Street, rather it's in the City of London and the truth is that no elected government can, or dares, to take on the City?

The banks are effectively on strike and Brown does nothing as the ship of state heads towards the rocks.

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 13:29

A regular Mary Celeste...would we even notice, if it hit the rocks? Democracy is dead.

PlanetStarbucks
05 February 2009 at 13:59

For years I've been telling my friends throughout my university time and now work life that the capitalists will hang themselves (my personal update on Stalin's "When we hang the capitalists they will sell us the rope").

In this sense, it is with a delicious taste of irony I watch these events. I luckily moved to Japan before the world came tumbling down and have a secure (and now in pound terms well paid job) but for many of my graduate friends stuck in the UK times are hard. Even the most ardent capitalists among them are starting to ask questions, their faith in a system they were told would bring the prosperity shaken to the core.

I have thought for a good few years how the communalisation of students and young adults will hopefully bring about a leftist movement; no longer is getting a good job going to get you your own flat - get ready to move in with 5 other people if you want to afford the rent. The wholesale destruction of this sector of society in my eyes may hold the key to a new or at least revitalised political movement. Many people are beginning to see the truth in leftist rhetoric as their old god collapses.

However, as Carl and Writeon have mentioned, the carrot has worked for so long but now the stick will probably be wielded. The propaganda machine is working overtime these days to persuade a dissatisfied public that the government is in control whereas in reality elite interests are serving their own purposes (whether these be banks, media outlets or corporations). The proof for this is overwhelming and therefore does not need repeating here.

Is there any hope from all this? I don't know, I'm only young. Many commentators write about such events as their working lives are in maturity, I am at the beginning of mine and what happens now will surely shape the rest of my future.

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 14:16

Planet Starbucks

Very prophetic. :)

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 15:12

Carl

Some off your NWO / conspiracy theory material i can quite easily take onboard some however i have heard over many years and have not seen any evidence for a belief in it. Maybe it is out there some where.

But i do have a belief in some thing i have not seen you broach.

I am of the opinion that both Northern Rock in the UK and Lehman Bros in the USA were deliberately allowed to fail as a way of sending a message out to the populations of both countries.

Maybe the message was the actual failure, part of Naomi Kleins "Shock Doctrine" when she describes the methodology of Milton Friedman.

To me both banks were allowed to go to the wall to frighten and shock the masses and to pave the way for the uninterrupted financial bailout of the banks with tax payers funds.

Should we all have just stood passively watching the PM make his pronouncments without any form of dissent? Or had the conditioning process we were all subjected to done its job?

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 16:39

Nilsey105

As they say, "you can take a horse to water, but you can`t make it drink". You don`t see IT, because you don`t want to. The majority of people like things simple, easy to understand...they want to be led, ring in nose style.

"They" even try and make major events appear as conspiracy theories, because "they" know that 80% of the public switch off. The X-Files made ET look silly, 007 made MI6 unbelieveable. Bush alledgedly told Blair that he`s thinking of blowing up Al Jazeera...which is an MI6 asset and TAPE handling facility.LOL

Lehman & Rock...9/11 & 7/7....ice crystals in the fuel & flocks of geese in the engines and communism & capitalism...mind games. Pilgers latest NS article...I know he KNOWS much more than he`s telling...he has a line that he cannot cross. Micheal Moore is another one. The MSM is diverse, not because the NWO elite is particularly diverse and even if the were diverse, THEIR power and wealth keeps them united. Of course they fight and there are factions, like competing executives in some corporation. But the MSM caters to all tastes, but each area of MSM produces the correct diet, not too much, just enough.

I remember reading pre-Iraq invasion articles in The Guardian...they were sooo pro-war, that I couldn`t actually finish reading them.

Brown wants a "New Global (World) Order", I suppose you don`t believe the Bilderberg Group meets every year and that the CFR and Chatham House players just drink tea and nibbles on cucumber sarnies when they get together.

Do you really see the world and its events, as things that just happen, with the MSM and politicians playing constant catchup? If you do, stay with it. I can`t expect everyone to get it. :)

Optimist
05 February 2009 at 17:09

Actually I’m really glad I don’t live in a post-war Wilby-world of bad food and poor service, with no breakfast TV nor shopping on Sundays. I like having a washing machine, dryer, and microwave oven.

I’m also very pleased to be responsible for my own future. I dislike the thought of a bureaucracy rationing my lifestyle. That’s why I took the time to educate myself about money and investments, and consequently I’m not really affected by this recent financial disruption. I must say though that I find it puzzling that some people appear to pay more attention to their pot plants and football teams than to their retirement, but so what? It’s their lives and up to them to make their choices.

I laugh when I read Wilby and writeon agonising about the “masses” and how cruelly they have been treated by liberal capitalism. It’s as if they think the “masses” would be much better off in Burma, North Korea, or Cuba. Or let’s bring back the utopia that was East Germany. Scarier still, let’s set up a dictatorship with Wilby and writeon in charge – it seems that’s what they would find most preferable.

I think I’ll open a bottle of Chilean wine tonight and raise a toast to the wondrous wealth-producing marvels that are capitalism, globalisation, and free markets. I’ll sit there in my warm home, surrounded by imported manufactured goods, and spare a thought for Wilby, writeon and their collective frustration.

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 20:25

Optimist

Enjoy your bottle of Socialist produced wine.

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 20:33

Carl

i am aware of what the likes of the Bilderberg Group,

Bank of International Settlements, Chatham House, the Council on Foreign Relations and other right wing establishment organs do in our society. As one who has suffered at the hands of the EEF through the 70s to the present i am also aware of the damage and harmful influence these people perform.

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 20:50

Yesterday we had Brown using the "D" word, albeit an alleged slip of the tongue.

Today we have, from the other side of the pond, a warning of the same word from Jeff Immelt, General Electrics CEO. ( reported in the FT.com 05-02-09 ).

Is this yet another softening up process reparing us for something far more sinister than we are experiencing at present?

It makes me wonder if the situation is so serious that the Recession to Depression will eventually become a Slump.

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 20:57

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/9cdf7854-f3b6-11dd-9c4b-0000779fd2ac...

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 21:11

Nilsey105

I don`t think the BSI, CH and CFR are "rightwing". It is clear that the NWO has brought the capitalist appearing system to its knees. Obama has just forced a banker pay cut, but its not clear if this is just a restriction on basic pay. However, if you work for a bank which doesn`t accept state aid, its business as usual....so we have communism for the majority of bankers and the super-bankers get communism with incentives. In reality, this is the same NWO pay structure which has been used over the last 30 years of globalisation. The rich have got stinking rich, while the majority of people are in real-terms, payed less than they were 30 years ago.

This is a parallel with whats going on in this crisis. Notinal loss of asset value and assets falling into fewer hands....I am 47 years old, will I ever be able to retire...will anyone?

writeon and amanfromMars might remember a comment I made many years ago on the BBC Today message boards. I predicted that the youth crime wave would be turned on its head and that we would one day witness an old persons crime wave...as people take responsibility for their own welfare.LOL

No wonder why they sold off the gold reserves...it would look terrible if the government held a stack of gold that had actually gone up in value.LOL

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 21:31

Carl

Yesterday i wrote about the wage restictions in the USA and the determination of Brown and Mandelson to give the bankers here vast amounts in salary and bonus payments. Today they are singing from the same hymn sheet.

I also wrote some time around mid October 08 about how wages ,in real terms had fallen since the early 1970s and the main reason for me was the use of cheap labour from abroad and the use of the minimum wage. That doesnt deny the fact that the drop originally was due to Thatcher having smashed the power of the TU movement.

Nilsey105
05 February 2009 at 21:33

cont.

And the wages in the new service industries were far lower than they had been in the now defunct manufactureing sector.

Carl Jones
05 February 2009 at 22:19

Here is a FANTASTIC link, its a MUST WATCH and very relevent to the current crisis.

http://blip.tv/file/1723061

Gerry Myer
06 February 2009 at 11:01

I wonder for how long “Optimist” will continue to be so smug. Is he really so insulated from the chill winds of the next decade, and longer, or does he simply not understand what is to come? It is nonsense to imply that all of those who have been financially prudent, who have made strenuous efforts to provide for their old age, who have eschewed hire purchase and all forms of credit and who have disdained impulse buying will not suffer as interest rates reach zero, investments decline in value and the government resorts to printing Monopoly money.

Polonius’ advice to Laertes that “borrowing dulls the edge of husbandry” is a timeless truth as confirmed by recent events, yet Gordon Brown, who learns nothing, wants banks now to make loans available for car purchase inter alia.

Capitalism is rotten in principle and Communism in practice; both faulted by greed, corruption and megalomania. Whilst the better aspects of religions offer models for human interrelations, their authority is negated by their bases in incredible myths.

Wilby deserves credit for a fine essay.

writeon
06 February 2009 at 13:03

It's so foolish to extrapolate from one's personal circumstances, which may be good or bad, and thereafter draw conclusions about the characteristics of an entire society or an economic theory. This is inflating the anecdotal to the level of political/economic dogma.

I could list how my life differs from that of the vast majority of people and my priviliges, but what would thrat prove exactly? That I was talented, lucky, hardworking or that I inhereted a small fortune without lifting a finger? Would that tell us anything profound about the nature of our socio/ecnomic system? The rich and comfortable have been around for millenia, would I been entitled to conclude that the world therefore hasn't really changed for thousands of years? Somehow I don't think so.

writeon
06 February 2009 at 13:11

What I think needs to be underlined is how incredibly destructive Thatcherism was for society as a whole. A manufacturing base, with skills and knowledge that took centuries to build-up, was allowed to decay for no good reason, at least not for society.

This massive and unecessary destruction was also accompanied by collosal waste of resources, both material, human and cultural. Almost as if a barbarian horde had been let loose on the country and ravanged it.

And on top of the destruction and waste we have to loade incompetence on a truly historic scale. The narrrowness of vision from a little shop in Grantham, inflated way beyond reason into a short-sighted political dogma pressed down over an entire culture and now we are all going to see just how hollow and dangerous the entire Thatcherite Revolution really was. It's disappearing like a puff of smoke from an opium pipe and when we finally open our eyes we'll only see a wasteland, not the stuff of dreams.

willoyen
06 February 2009 at 14:37

Interesting. Class and inequality have always been disproportionate in the UK, and still are. The quality of labour is inferior thanks to the failures of education and training. 30% leaving primary school illiterate, and 40 000 requiring ‘scribes’ to write their school-leaving exams in 2008! Yet UK private schools are as good as the best, Finland for example. Willey thus plausibly depicts ‘workers’ today as a sort of malleable jelly lacking judgement of its own, but answering to the needs of the political and business classes, to use their modest capital to buy into the credit markets, become indebted investors, saving up nothing but debt, but thereby building up funds for the spirals which enrich for a time the bankers, fund managers, and politicians, who drive it. Society indeed doesn’t exist for the poor. People forget or ignore how deeply scurvy politicians are involved. Blair, for example, leaves office, and is immediately picked up as part-time financial adviser to JP Morgan Chase for £1 million pa. ( though perhaps this man of Faith, and Peace to Gaza, turns it over to charity). Major joined the Carlyle group. Sarkozy looks forward to the money he is going to earn when he leaves office, ‘like Clinton’. It is all our money which pays for the enrichment of these oligarchs (you don’t have to be Russian) who make sure the financial engines function for their benefit, our money going into the infamous bonuses etc; which is used in the derivatives markets to pay for ever more abstract transactions. And our money is used to bail them out. Inequality increases dangerously. Once well-kept housing estates have become squalid, crime ridden little Baghdads. And substandard education makes it all unchallengeable. We are gelid indeed. Ready to behave like the poor animals in Jones’ farm.

Bring out the guillotine! PlanetStarbucks for starters! such insufferable, smug, self-satisfaction has to have its head lopped off!

willoyen
06 February 2009 at 14:43

my apologies to PlanetStarbucks! I should, of course, have said "Optimist". Let his head roll! ( just shows how bad capital punishment is).

Nilsey105
06 February 2009 at 14:50

Carl

That i can have some belief in.

If Bliar, Mendleson and Brown can conspire to take over the Labour party as they did prior to the death of John Smith, then i am sure their dirty paws are all over this thing.

Carl Jones
06 February 2009 at 16:04

Nilsey105

What thing, be specific, I am just a simpleton. :(

PlanetStarbucks
06 February 2009 at 16:17

willoyen,

I had started writing a quite flabbergasted reply to your wants to introduce me to “Madame Guillotine” until I checked your correction. I am anything but optimistic.

I do not taste irony as I am in a better situation that others, I taste it as those of my peers who have praised the capitalist system despite its obvious flaws have now had to take a reality check. My job is that of an English teacher, a profession that is good for experience and allows me a lifestyle that my "modest" (in its perverse sense) upbringing never allowed me - eating in restaurants once a week as an example. However my current situation does not give me any capital to save or build on; perhaps enough to begin paying back the horrendous amount of debt I and many graduates find themselves enveloped in these days.

I have no idea how things will spin out, commentators such as Writeon and Carl Jones who are obviously older than myself and more experienced in the world may be able to give a more empirical answer. However from my perspective the world is slipping into a nightmare from which it may never recover. Our humanity seems lost in our love of science and technology. For me, science without philosophy is poison as it allows people to do monstrous things in the name of advancement without the pain of attainment which with it brings humility and modesty.

There seems no rational reason to me why we need a stratified society when we have the means of production at our control, if not in our control. The need for want can be eliminated but the amoral monster of capital attainment rolls on nevertheless. Science in this frame, whether it be physical of social, only serves the interests of the elite who use it to further their manipulation of society (whether that be technology such as surveillance or social sciences which are created in capitalism to serve capitalism).

-continuted below-

PlanetStarbucks
06 February 2009 at 16:17

I can give further points to strengthen these arguments for those who wish but as before I see these points as self-evident to the audience to which I write.

The demagoguery that has again enveloped the political strata of the West, from Obama to Blair and Brown will not solve anything as it has no relation to the flow of capital and those who control it. As Peter Wilby writes in this brilliant article, Thatcher served the elite and created a world for them. Without a revolution, at least in terms of devolution of power back to the community, I fear we are doomed to be little more than free slaves, trapped in a system that allows us to think but not dissent.

Carl Jones
06 February 2009 at 18:50

I take it, that most of you on here have been on Common Purpose courses?? And this is the reason why you have ALL ignored the link above??

Nilsey105
06 February 2009 at 20:49

Carl

i have been reading the contents of the link and other links leading from there. I have also located a free download of the video which i am attempting to receive.

I then discovered the latest JP peice and read that.

And now my daughter wants me to browse this 5001 Cities to visit. FFS no peace for the wicked.

I looked up the names of those from Merseyside who have taken the course succesfully and are now qualified graduates. Lmao i know about 4 of them. I think its indicative of the amount of local authority personnel on the list. I think most have taken that course just for a few hours of light relief out of their boring daily office routine.

Carl Jones
06 February 2009 at 21:01

Nilsey105

"I think most have taken that course just for a few hours of light relief out of their boring daily office routine".

This maybe so and no doubt some will be unsuitably...they won`t find themselves in positions of power, but others will take to it like "nose candy"...its all very dark, even the NS peddles for Common Purpose.

me
06 February 2009 at 21:47

C.J. First time i have ever heard of common purpose,almost intresting.

There is a one world government coming soon enough,doubt its going to be the one they think though.

The "credit crunch"bubble etc,whatever you want to call it is leading to one thing-small word starts with w.Reading the posts over the last few weeks,me thinks alot of people are starting to see/fear/know its almost here.

The economy is going to collapse,society will break down(could be said it has already)and all these "elites" will be in it with the rest.They may have nuclear bunkers etc and think there safe,but they aint.

On a non PC note,read ISA 10;5-7.There is your answer who will be used against not only this nation-would you say we are hypocritical as a nation?Question seems to me then,who are the modern day decendants of these people?Answer that one correctly,then watch them!

All of these "elites"(and it looks like there are many)are just trying to do what they think is for the best-but a decieved person DOES NOT know he is decieved.In the end there efforts will all be in vain,one pupose will stand-and it sure wont be theres!

Have a read of JOB 38-42!

writeon
06 February 2009 at 21:51

Carl,

Easy now. I'm using the term 'Thatcherism' to describe part of the NWO, the British part, and also because I think New Labour basically follows a Thatcherite agenda too.

I followed the link to the interview about Common Purpose. I'm not sure about the chap being interviewed, he seemed convincing... but... there was something about him. Maybe Common Purpsose is just a money making scam?

writeon
06 February 2009 at 22:01

Nilsey,

Surely it would be more effective, quicker, and cheaper to bypass the striking banks altogether? Why not give money; in checks, cash, or vouchers directly to the people? Say, five hundred or a thousand a month per head for everyone for a year or two. I imagine this would get people spending, free money! One could even set up community or peoples' banks to supply local people and businesses with loans. Do we even really need the old-fashioned, broken, and corrupt banking system anymore?

Nilsey105
07 February 2009 at 00:09

FFS whats with all this OT mumbo jumbo.

Get real.

Religion like propaganda, " all is phoney " Bob Dylan.

Nilsey105
07 February 2009 at 00:10

He said that before he turned to Roman Catholism

max caulfield
07 February 2009 at 04:23

O'Brien spoken here

writeon
07 February 2009 at 10:56

Is there a way out of the mess we're in, or are the current government's policies only making things worse? Is the same thing true in the United States and everywhere else?

I think we may be at the end of an historic era. An era we've lived under for a few centuries. An era that began, roughly speaking, in London, in the late seventeenth century with the creation of the Bank of England and a new concept of money and wealth. The extraordinary idea that one could 'create' money out of thin air. An idea that surpassed even the wildest dreams of the alchemists. After all they believed it might be possible to create gold out of base metals, but to create 'gold' out of air, out of nothing, was going even further.

My contention is that we have allowed alchemists or charlatans, in both the financial and political spheres to take over the running of society for at least the last thirty years, probably for far longer, and now the entire illusion is being revealed for what it really is - an illusion, a confidence trick, presented as reality by a cult of conjurers who rule society. Today the entire, massive, centuries long, giant Ponzi scheme, is collapsing with untold consequences to follow.

Who will the ruling elite blame for this catastrophic end of an era? Obviously they will do everything in their considerable power to avoid taking responsibility themselves. But somebody will have to pay the bill now the party is over. I think it'll be the same people who always pay. The same people who paid for the ricde up will pay for the ride down, the poor and the powerless, and there are going to be a lot more of them in the future.

The powerful know we are at the end of an era, the end of the era of frivolous, mass consumption of resources. Too many of us, have consumed too much, for too long, and increasingly for borrowed money. That era is all over, definitively in the leading countries of the West. The end of the consumer society. This is going to be a real wrench.

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 11:44

Alert!!

Baltic Dry Index (BDI) falls 94%!!

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=bdiy&exch=IND&x=1...

As I pointed out weeks ago, global trade has all but stopped...of course, I was shot down.LOL

Soon the shelves will start to empty and the government MIGHT (LOL) start rationing food.

writeon
08 February 2009 at 13:06

Carl,

I don't think the same political and economic class that got us into this mess in the first place, are the best people to stop it developing into a world-wide slump or depression.

Why, they are even using the same remedies, massive borrowing, trying to reflate the housing and credit bubbles, that supposedly started it all. Isn't that just a bit odd? Administering more of the same bad medicine that's poisoning us, does that make sense?

Is it because they are all 'Thatcherites' at heart, and really believe that there is no other way, no alternative? I think it probably is. Unfortunately they can only really think in one way and move in one direction at a time. Like a train hurtling along the tracks, suddenly someone shouts that the bridge in down. What's to be done? There answer? Shovel more coal in the boiler and open the throttle wide, we're going to attempt to fly across the chasm, because we can't stop now!

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 22:35

Lol

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 23:05

http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/february2009/020609...

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 23:12

http://www.cnbc.com/id/29047443

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 23:17

http://thecomingdepression.blogspot.com/2009/02/this-is-far-...

Angelus
08 February 2009 at 23:30

Slightly off topic, but isn't it funny how we haven't heard from antileft for a while? Maybe his unwavering faith in the Capitalist system has came back to bite him in the ass. I do miss he and Carl's little "altercations".

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 23:47

http://www.videonewslive.com/view/288549/peter_schiff_on_200...

Carl Jones
08 February 2009 at 23:51

Angelus, what "altercations"? writeon`s last comment, is it really writeon? Looks like a none writeon brain wrote it.

Nilsey105
09 February 2009 at 00:08

Carl

Baltic Dry

Have you not seen the news on BBC showing all the massive container ships, tied up at anchor 3 abreast in the river Fal ?

On the writeon last post . It looks as if someone is trying to imitate writeons structure. Or he was pissed when he wrote that.

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 01:06

Nilsey105

You have to read writeon`s comments and mine to see why I make this claim. This used to happen on the BBC, where there would 10 posters, but 3 writers doing the work.lol

I`m not even sure if this is the REAL NS site???

Nilsey105, if you are REAL, take some advice, start preparing. The other day I got in my car and the seat had moved, no one had used my keys and no one had violently broken in....you know, that anyone would notice when the seat has been moved, especially the seat back....maybe I`m being car bugged?lol

Nilsey105
09 February 2009 at 01:26

Carl

I am aware of some of the things that go on. Like cameras being put into peoples homes whilst there,usually, not at home . I mean those minute cameras like the size of a pin head with built in transmitters. There is no need to do phone taps anylonger thats all old technology.

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 20:42

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/ambroseevans_prit...

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 20:59

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous to our liberties than standing armies... if the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of currency...the banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of all property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent that their fathers conquered." --Thomas Jefferson

A man clearly ahead of his time.LOL

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 21:02

And this is what you get.LOL

"We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order." -- David Rockefeller

Nilsey105
09 February 2009 at 21:07

Oh oh it looks like the engine is reving up.

The piece i put up about Japan has been removed but look at the latest from one of their Senators;

"We are facing hyper-deflation, so we need a policy to create hyper-inflation,"

Just as in 1932 in USA.

Nilsey105
09 February 2009 at 21:19

What is even more meaningful for us in the UK is the decision of the EU centralbank people not to decrease interest rates as most of the worlds banks have done.

The influence of the German and French governments is going to lead to a split in the EU and a split away from the USA.

Once again protectionism is going to raise its head up over the garden wall. This will create a situation whereby we all go our seperate ways and conflict arises. Exactly where and between who is the 64,000 question.

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 21:20

Nilsey105

Yes, "so we need a policy to create hyper-inflation"...they don`t need a POLICY, its already loaded into the system, its just a question of when.

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 21:43

Nilsey105

You are right, there is a fracture between the US and Europe.The ECB seems to be hanging the US out to dry. The US is on the verge of breakup. The fringe of Europe is frayed, but its nowhere near the US in terms of stability.

When and if the dust settles, Europe could be the only superpower and even if the US remains intact, their economy could only be worth half that of Europe...Europe has a welfare system, in some cases, very good one`s. This will reduce the impact .

I now hold the firm view, that Amerika and Britain are going to hyper-inflate their way out of debt.

Carl Jones
09 February 2009 at 22:00

They are catchng up with me.LOL

Crisis will be worse than the 1930`s, says Ed Balls.

Balls is a Bilderberger, so his words come from on high....aka the NWO.LOL

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/7880189.stm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Bilderberg_Meeting

Nilsey105
09 February 2009 at 22:12

Carl

As i have been saying the "D" word is being said with increasing rapidity. We are being softened up for the ALMIGHTY CRASH that is just no more then 18 months away.

Nilsey105
09 February 2009 at 22:15

The estimate of 10 to 15 years is another way of saying this is going to develope first into a depression and then a slump.

We will see crazy figures of near half the population without work.

a.m.r.
10 February 2009 at 00:34

What on earth ?

From the article : "At the time, 85 per cent of British voters favoured the policy and, given that the discounts on sale prices to long-term residents could be as high as 60 per cent, it seemed a rare example of the state offering something for nothing. But it was also a form of gerrymandering, as the effect of the policy was to break up the public housing estates that formed the basis of Labour Party mobilisation."

As well as seeming to regret, earlier in the article, that the working-class man has gained access to greater lines of credit than he had before, the author here objects to the fact that Thatcher's Conservative government enabled many working-class people to purchase their state-owned homes, something that as he points out had a very powerful democratic mandate.

Incredibly, the author objects to this because he sees it as gerry-mandering, breaking up one of Labour's constituencies. That is to say, he feels that the Conservative government should have gone against the peoples' will and instead acted partisanly in the interest of the opposition Labour party in order to maintain Labour's voting base (!). Unethical, and kind of absurd, surely.

(Maybe this is what New Labour had in mind when they felt the need to take on an extra 400,000+ government employees not long after coming into power : they were just reclaiming some lost votes.)

Nilsey105
10 February 2009 at 01:01

Protectionist measures are expanding. This time its the French in the form of its president.

http://www.breakingviews.com/2009/02/09/French%20carmakers.a...

PlanetStarbucks
10 February 2009 at 02:04

Nilsey105 ,

Good point about Writeon, his grammar in that last post was awful and he's getting his pronouns mixed up. Suppose that's the problem with commenting online, it's possible that anyone could find their way into your account (or be given access) and represent you.

Nilsey105
11 February 2009 at 00:21

My post above on the 10th Feb re protectioism;

The Czechs are accusing Euro zone country's of protectionism. Its contagious lol

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/86261008-f750-11dd-81f7-000077b076...

writeon
11 February 2009 at 11:22

It may be too late, but before we slide over the edge of a cliff into a long depression, the UK government should step in resolutely and nationalise the entire financial sector, not just pumping money in, but taking control and directing the flow of oil/capital in the economy, before the entire machine grinds to a halt.

The longer we attempt to prop up banks that are effectively insolvent, or in plain language, bust, broke, finished, the worse the crisis will become and the longer it will last. We are wasing valuable resources and time on dead, or zombie banks.

The government's policy of massaging the banks, pursuading them, bailing them out, begging them; isn't working and valuable time is being wasted and we move closer to a banking collapse followed by collapse of the real economy.

Britain could take bold and resolute action and lead the world, showing how it should be done. Full and immediate nationalisation of the entire financial sector, instead the government is dittering, why?

Because Labour is dedicated to preserving the private nature of our financial institutions at any cost, even at the risk of sacrificing the real economy in the process. Capitalism rules, OK?

They are willing to do absolutely anything to preserve the position of the financial aristocracy at the centre, and their power over society and its direction, and this, remember, is supposed to be a 'Labour' government.

The only hope, and even this is fading fast, of avoiding a long and deep slump, or depression, is to act now, before it's too late, unfortunately all the signs are that Labour won't act in time and a collapse is seemingly inevitable.

Nilsey105
11 February 2009 at 13:15

writeon

The banking system, as we have known it to date, is totally beyond repair.

When we have, as we did last week, leading Tories

(George Osborne) stating, "the game is up for the banking system" , then you know for sure the end is upon us for these archaic organs of capitalism.

The problem is at present a lack of an alternative system of oiling the wheels and what sort of wheels are we going to have after the air is cleared of the cordite.

Not even the super brains can come up with what a new system will be.

Carl Jones
11 February 2009 at 15:01

Yes, the banks should have been allowed to go bust. But its clear "they" have no intention of doing this. We are going to end up with a few super-banks holding a huge amount of assets.

I`ve just thought of a sub-plot. The US has a staggering public pensions hole full of IOU`s, and forget this banking mess, we now know and I have pointed out in the past, PPPs (private pension plans) were never going to provide a reasonable retirement income. Now, we often messaged that we are ALL living longer. This might be true, but its more like to be a massarged construct. The NWO wants us to all work longer, thus eking out their profit margin. The global demographic is a pensions time-bomb.

This designed crisis has ended the prospect of retirement, as we know it. Most face the prospect of work until death...

....this is one of major social consequences of this DESIGNED economic depression. Globalisation was always going to end this way. This is not to say that globalisation won`t restart, but this won`t happen for 10-15 years.

"The problem is at present a lack of an alternative system of oiling the wheels and what sort of wheels are we going to have after the air is cleared".

I`m not sure if their will any oil and the wheels are likely to be a totalitarian fascist police state...this is what we already have and with social unrest, every element will be deployed against the people. Travel restrictions, compulsory ID cards/chips, food rationing and a return of national service for all.

a.m.r.
11 February 2009 at 15:57

writeon: "What I think needs to be underlined is how incredibly destructive Thatcherism was for society as a whole. A manufacturing base, with skills and knowledge that took centuries to build-up, was allowed to decay for no good reason, at least not for society"

Thatcher didn't destroy the manufacturing base. Across almost all of Europe there was a scaling down of manufacturing activity. In Britain, the unions had made British manufacturing into a somewhat of an international joke, long before Thatcher came along. Quality and productivity and had started to tank by the 1960's. Britiain unsurprisingly acquired a reputation for expensive and shoddy workmanship.

Thatcher's biggest blow against the corruption of the unions was the introduction of the secret ballot: once people could vote without the fear of violence afterwards from the union bully boys for voting the wrong way, the strikes faded away - it turned out most people wanted to work things out and to work.

The unions of earlier times had been vital in establishing the rights of workers, but later manifestations were selfish and ultimately foolish (Germany, just as unionised, fared much better because workers were more interested in coming to good compromises rather than sticking to unreasonable demands (eg. "jobs for life" or unreasonable wage increases, in fading industries, when the country couldn't afford it).

Optimist
11 February 2009 at 16:13

This collapse has now been collapsing for, oh, eighteen months now? So far I've had no problems with day to day life. The automatic teller machine works same as usual. The traffic lights on the corner function as normal. Obviously the internet's ok. I expect that tomorrow morning I will wake up and go about my business as I did today. Exactly what is the hideous nightmare you are all fretting about?

Some people have lost their jobs. That happens all the time. (How do you know I haven't?). The government is trying to control the uncontrollable - that happens all the time too.

The evidence is overwhelming we are all healthier, wealthier, and happier than at any other time in history, and the trend is for even more health, wealth, and happiness. That gives me cause for, erm, optimism.

Rather than worrying about Thatcher ad nauseum, I think most of you should consider the implications behind the statements of willoyen, who seems to advocate killing people who he disagrees with.

Funny how none of you have had anything to say about that.

writeon
11 February 2009 at 17:20

a.m.r.

What do you know about Britain exactly? From your comments about Britain's manufacturing, clearly not much. Your superficial picture of the reasons behind the UK's industrial decline, read like a perverse cartoon version of history from the Daily Mail, totally one-dimensional and innacurate. You exaggerate about quality control and poor workmanship. These aren't the sole responsibility of working people, there is another side to the story; like poor management and lack of investment, which also characterised the British model, yet you choose to focus solely on the uniions, why? Why are you so biased?

Carl Jones
11 February 2009 at 17:37

http://thecomingdepression.blogspot.com/2009/02/this-depress...

a.m.r.
11 February 2009 at 18:26

writeon,

Weak management and a lack of investment played a part, but it was the actions of the unions that crippled the industry more than anything else, and made them unable to respond to competitive forces. (Other countries had caught up with Britain's industrial revolution, often aided by exported British technology).

The comment about poor quality goods is not an exaggeration - German, French and Japanese goods were superior, and England lost out accordingly. Post-war, industries like car manufacturing lost market share to Germany, France and Italy, and later on to Japan. By 1975 the industry was nearly bankrupt.

All of this was before Thatcher entered the scene.

Your attempt to pin the blame for the decades-long decline in manufacturing on Thatcherism is what is "perversely cartoon-like" and inaccurate.

writeon
11 February 2009 at 18:45

This blaming the unions for Britain's problems is just plain wrong. Let's look at the United States, where the Unions are much, much weaker than in the UK. The United States has followed the neo-liberal, Chichago School, 'Thatcherite' model as well, over the last thirty years, and here too the manufacturing base has been undermined, just look at the problems their automobile industry has. So one can hardly blame the unions for US inustrieal decline can one? Other factors must be responsible; like bad magnagement and choosing to move production abroad where wages are lower and profits are higher.

Likewise Britain's inustrial decline was caused by the power of the Unions, that was the Thatcherite dogma, the 'power' of the Unions and industrial conflict, was a symptom of industrial decline not the cause.

Nilsey105
11 February 2009 at 19:45

a.m.r.

At the time writeon is talking about we had WORLD LEADERS in many areas of manufacturing. Give me some industies and i will give you a reply to how we british figurd in that market.

Carl.

i was only 8 years out with my 15 year duration. lol

Carl Jones
11 February 2009 at 21:11

This video ties in with what the NWO has planned for us in and post depression. The video is an hour long....

....YOU WILL NEVER FORGET WHAT YOU ARE ABOUT TO SEE....REALLY!!

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=875679526335980777...+ripple&total=19&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

Optimist
12 February 2009 at 08:06

writeon, could you do me a favour and explain why you place such enormous importance on manufacturing, and manufacturing jobs? And could you also please specify the precise moment in the history of British manufacturing which you regard as ideal? One other thing - why do you appear to believe that being an assembly-line worker in a factory is so much more desirable than say, being a web designer, a snow-board instructer, a mobile phone salesperson, or someone who installs satellite dishes (just to name 4 jobs that did not exist and were barely even conceivable back in the glorious 70's).

Thanks in advance

a.m.r.
12 February 2009 at 12:03

writeon: "This blaming the unions for Britain's problems is just plain wrong."

You're creating a strawman argument: we were discussing the decline in British manufacturing, not "Britain's problems", a significantly broader category.

writeon: "So one can hardly blame the unions for US industrial decline can one?"

Another strawman argument. We were discussing the UK, not the US. I had said earlier (@15.57), that unions can have vital roles to play, so obviously I don't believe that all unions are automatically bad.

This is another strawman argument you've created - it's possible to have good unions in one place and bad unions in another place.

writeon
12 February 2009 at 21:08

A.m.r

You don't seem to understand the concept of the strawman argument very well. By pretending that I was using it against you, your are actually using the strawman argument against me, because I did not say the examples I was using were yours, they are mine.

I am allowed to make what I believe are relevant comparisons between, for example, the labour movement in the United States and Britain. I was merely pointing out that one can have massive industrial and manufacturing decline in a country with weak unions, like the United States, as well as in a country with 'strong' unions, like the UK. I didn't say this was your view, so it cannot be a strawman argument.

Why are you suddenly an expert of industrial relations and unions in the United States, and the UK? Why do you think that the unions were 'good' in the US, but 'bad' in the UK? What evidence do you have for your blanket assertions?

writeon
12 February 2009 at 21:35

Optimist,

I don't think I've got time to answer all your questions properly, but I'll try, though I get the feeling you already think you know the answers. I'm afraid I'm not going to reply to questions that refer to attitudes or statemensts I haven't made, sorry.

The jobs you refer to are mostly in the service sector, not export orientated at all. I think this is a problem, which the balance of payments can attest to. Britain is too reliant on imports of manufactures, and the financial services sector. The City of London is too big and dominates the economy to an unheathy degree.

Also service jobs and the financial sector are very 'fragile' jobs in a severve economic depression, the kind of one we are entering now. Britain has created a service and financial sector jobs bubble, which is bursting. This will have profound consequences for society.

Minus the illusory economy, based on the accumulation and creation of debt, it is going to be difficult to pay for all of the imports of manufactured goods Britain releys on so heavily, therefore it would have made more sense to keep a certain level of manufacturing as a kind of strategic reserve in the event of a depression.

a.m.r.
13 February 2009 at 00:49

writeon: "You don't seem to understand the concept of the strawman argument very well."

The strawman argument is one that resembles the original argument and but is easier to refute. Often, the weaker argument is a misrepresentation of the original argument.

My original argument was that unions had a significant role in UK manufacturing's decline (or decay, as you put it).

You innacurately summarised my argument as blaming the unions for "Britain's problems", something far larger and easily refuted. Refuting it does not refute the original argument, therefore it's a strawman argument.

You then argue that since unions in the US were much weaker yet US manufacturing suffered a decline too, the US unions cannot have had a role to play. Even if true, this doesn't mean that unions in the UK behaved in the same way and had the same degree of influence. You yourself mentioned that they were'stronger'.

You appear to believe that the US case is easier to refute than the US case, and since a refutation of the US case is not a refutation of the UK case, you are making a another strawman argument, or at least what you believe is a strawman argument.

Anyway, didn't the US unions have significant power in US manufacturing in the 60's and 70's, than you say they did, even if they didn't use it quite as destructively as the UK unions?

The recent failures of the US automakers were due in part to the excessively heavy settlements negotiatied with threat of mass strikes by the UAW with the automakers. These large possibly un-meetable financial requirements have contributed greatly to the automakers' current situation. Another siginifant long-term problem may have been never really adopting the powerful quality control methods which the US themselves exported to Japan after the war as part of the rebuilding effort

Silent Hunter
20 February 2009 at 12:16

Quote: ".....The evidence is overwhelming we are all

healthier, wealthier, and happier than at any other

time in history,....."

So where is this 'evidence' then?...Optometrist.

I think you may need a new prescription for those rose

tinted spectacles of yours. ;o)

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Peter Wilby

Peter Wilby was editor of the Independent on Sunday from 1995 to 1996 and of the New Statesman from 1998 to 2005. He writes a weekly column for the NS.

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