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Catastrophe averted?

Published 20 November 2008

The leaders of the rich countries went to Washington to save the world from sliding into deep recession. We asked key politicians, commentators and economists whether they succeeded and what we should expect, and hope for, in the coming weeks

New global order: some of the 20 world leaders who gathered in the US capital on 15 November

Catastrophe averted?

Vincent Cable

Shadow chancellor, Liberal Democrats

By the low standards of economic summitry, the G20 meeting rated quite high. There was a predictable, no doubt pre-written, communiqué, full of the usual banalities. And the meeting suffered from the absence of the world's most important politician, who hasn't yet taken up office. But, these necessary caveats aside, there were important achievements.

The first is that the meeting took place at all. The ludicrous pretence of the G8 (or G7) that the old western powers should set the global economic agenda has been punctured for good. On a purchasing power parity basis, China has the second-biggest economy in the world and India the fourth. It has been clear for some time that China is lender of last resort to the global system (by, in effect, underwriting US government paper) and the main source of global incremental demand (and commodity price inflation). The Chinese self-parody as the pupil sitting meekly at the feet of a dominant, but erring, master defies belief. It is obviously right that China, India and the other main non-G7 countries should be at the top table.

The second achievement was the clear realisation that unless governments hang together they will hang separately. Enough has been learned from interwar history for us to understand the follies of beggar-my-neighbour economics. Perhaps a warning shock was being sent across the bows of the incoming Obama administration not to reinvent the protectionist tariffs of the 1930s in a new guise, directed at China or Mexico in particular, or aiming to salvage the US auto industry through public subsidy. But this new-found concern for open markets has not yet communicated itself to EU or Indian or Chinese trade negotiators, who show no enthusiasm for lifting the block on trade liberalisation under the Doha round.

While trade policy is on the back burner, macroeconomic policy co-ordination is not. With a few exceptions - Germany notably - there is recognition of the need for aggressive monetary and fiscal policy and for large-scale intervention to recapitalise banks. These interventions can be and are being undertaken nationally. But governments acting in isolation attract critical attention from capital markets and currency speculators, as Gordon Brown is discovering. Structures like the G20 are the best safeguard against chaotic, unilateral action.

Will Hutton

Economic commentator

It was remarkable to gather so much economic and political power in one room to address a common agenda. That was the good news - along with commitments to co-ordinate fiscal expansion, to expand the lending power of the IMF and World Bank (Japan's $100bn loan to the IMF will increase the Fund's lending capacity by 40 per cent), to boost cross-border supervision, to tackle credit rating agencies, to reassess mad accounting rules and require member countries to attack the bonus culture in the financial services industry. A year ago such an agreement would have been inconceivable.

The bad news is that much of this is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. Four things have to be recognised: that the world has profound imbalances between high-saving, high-surplus areas in Asia and the Gulf and low-saving, structural deficit countries in the transatlantic economy (Germany excepted); that a system of floating exchange rates and private banks can no longer take the weight of recycling those savings; that unless the system is de-risked and the burden of adjustment is placed on deficit and surplus countries alike, the global system faces breakdown; and finally, that the business model used by the banks to recycle surpluses - securitisation and hedging in the $360trn global derivatives market - is broken.

In plain English, China must accept that its currency must appreciate; Britain and America, that they cannot run their economies on foreign savings; and all players that there has to be a system of semi-fixed exchange rates between the yen, the euro and the dollar.

One tough reality is that, for all their new economic weight, China, Brazil, Russia and India do not have fully convertible currencies - nor do they want to accept the discipline involved in having convertible currencies.

Ann Pettifor

Fellow, New Economics Foundation

Over the past decade, the Group of Eight leaders turned their exclusive annual meetings into jamborees. Rock concerts, protesters and celebrities added populist glitz. However, the real purpose of the meetings - international co-operation and co-ordination - was ducked. At last year's G8 Summit in Heiligendamm, Germany, George W Bush and Gordon Brown vetoed Angela Merkel's agenda item for co-operation over tighter international regulation and financial oversight of capital markets. That task, they argued then, could safely be delegated to "the invisible hand". Now that the fantastic, self-regulating machinery of free markets has proved grossly malfunctional, it is good to hear talk of enhanced co-operation and regulation.

But, in places, the joint statement issued by the 20 world leaders borders on the delusional. The phrase "We must . . . ensure . . . that a global crisis, such as this one, does not happen again" implies that they are avoiding the next war when they are still losing this one.

Even more questionable is the call for continued "economic growth". In a world of finite resources on a planet with limited capacity to absorb toxic emissions, and with bushfires encircling Los Angeles, we would have hoped that world leaders had some awareness of the threat of climate change and of the limits to economic growth. But no. The gravest threat to global security - our rapacious attitude to the earth's resources - is once again whipped up with talk of "market principles, open trade and economic growth".

Jesse Norman

Senior fellow at Policy Exchange

One might have thought the G20 summit a good moment for some straight talk from the Prime Minister. Instead, the political wind machine was cranked up to full blast. The summit would be a second Bretton Woods. Gordon Brown would forge a new global consensus on co-ordinated intervention to stimulate growth (while, of course, leading reforms to prevent the banking crisis from ever recurring). Luckily virtually none of this was true, or the summit would have been a hopeless failure. With fiscal measures already widely adopted, the G20 hardly needed Brown's leadership. No surprise that he returned empty-handed.

Labour has moved from despondency to a manic desperation to remain in office. The result is that the ever-fragile concept of truth in politics has wholly been cast aside. Thus the humiliating bank nationalisation has been dressed up as an act of far-seeing economic statesmanship. And a sensible warning from the shadow chancellor that current economic policy puts sterling at risk has been condemned for breaching an irrelevant semi-convention dating from the time of fixed exchange rates.

Alex Brummer

City editor, Daily Mail

There is a golden rule of international financial meetings. The larger the "G" number, in other words the more countries involved, the less likely it is that any worthwhile or binding decisions will be taken. So while it was wholly encouraging that the G20 summit brought a number of emerging market leaders to the top table of finance, including China, Brazil and Russia, there was never any real prospect of the event becoming the new Bretton Woods.

Furthermore, the summit took place in the final days of the lame duck administration of George Bush. Once it became clear Barack Obama was going nowhere near the confab, the event became even more of an irrelevance.

European leaders may like to blame Wall Street and Anglo-Saxon capitalism for the credit crunch and the recession now spreading through the Group of Seven like wildfire, but there is no hope of concerted international action without the new White House and Federal Reserve on board.

Almost all that was agreed could have been decided before the leaders left home. The commitment to reviving the Doha trade round is pure motherhood and apple pie. The prairie populists on Capitol Hill are unlikely to be enthusiastic.

At the core of the proposals was the commitment to use fiscal measures, tax cuts and public spending to kick-start global economies. But despite Gordon Brown's enthusiastic embrace of a new Keynesian big-spending approach - as advocated by Nobel prize-winner Paul Krugman - he neatly forgot to mention that such big-spending ways were only for those countries with a "policy framework conducive to fiscal sustainability". The UK with its ballooning budget deficit, which could hit £100bn or more next year, is clearly in no such position.

It is hard to fathom in what way the G20 was "historic", as the Prime Minister claimed in the Commons. There is little original in a bunch of old ideas designed to remove risk from the financial system and control executive pay. That is what regulators should have done before the banks ploughed into the iceberg.

James Buchan

Author and financial commentator

What is the Financial Stability Forum? What is "mitigating against pro-cyclicality in regulatory policy"? What, if anything, has the G20 summit in Washington on the weekend of the 15 November achieved?

Nothing very much, is the answer to all three questions. In the twilight of a discredited US administration, and with President-elect Barack Obama absent, the meeting was never likely to achieve a great deal or generate excitement in the US. Yet the final declaration, drafted with suspicious ease by the delegations on Saturday night, has something for everybody but not enough of anything to scare the financial horses.

Nicolas Sarkozy, the French president whose idea the whole thing was, gained some support for more institutional government of trade and finance, but no super-gendarme international of the type that has been directing financial traffic in the French imagination since the 17th century. As Jean-Pierre Robin wrote in the Figaro: "Those with fantasies of supranational supervision will need to change therapist." The US, jealous of its commercial sovereignty even when it is going about without its shirt, put paid to those Gallic dreams and also gained some platitudes about free trade.

The new commercial powers, not only Brazil, Russia, India and mainland China but also rich oil producers such as Saudi Arabia, received diplomatic recognition of their deep pockets. "The world's geopolitical structure has a new dimension," the Brazilian president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, said. "There is no logic to making any political and economic decisions without the G20 members - developing countries must be part of the solution to the global financial crisis."

I suspect the winner is Gordon Brown. The next meeting will be held under his presidency in London in April. The Washington ragbag of proposals to reform or tinker with the current system, such as reminding us about the Financial Stability Form and mitigating against that regrettable pro-cyclicality in regulatory policy, appeals to his technical vanity and plays to his technical strengths.

Paul Mason

Economics editor, Newsnight

There was a sense in Washington, despite the throbbing engines and bulletproof glass, of powerlessness. The communiqué was stronger on the causes of the crisis than on co-ordinated solutions. Policymakers are right to stay focused on the near-term dangers: these are country-level debt default, the rising cost of borrowing for non-financial companies, rapid job losses and - via feedback - further destabilisation of the banking system. We are moving into the phase of fiscal stimulus but there are powerful technical arguments that say without "quantitative easing" - that is, printing money to stimulate demand - it doesn't work. The same people who told me it would come to recapitalisation, that the TARP (troubled assets relief programme) would not work, are now saying: nationalise the banks and print money.

Despite the urgency of the focus on near-term dangers, what was obvious at G20 was the lack of vision as to the future growth model of capitalism. The problem was seen as a failure of regulation; the solution a pretty weak brew of re-regulation that will get diluted even more as the lobbyists begin to have influence. But the problem is more fundamental: the growth model based on high debt instead of high wages has failed and will be hard to revive.

Peter Mandelson

Secretary of State for Business

We have been caught in a global whirlwind of extraordinary force.

It has brought with it a fear that has gripped the world economy and taken hold here at home. We are seeing it every day, with fear among consumers that is depressing demand; fear among banks that is inhibiting them from lending; fear among small- and medium-sized businesses that banks are just about to cut off their credit lines. The choice facing us and governments around the world is this: do we act decisively to counter and overcome this fear, or do we become paralysed by it and fail to act?

The government has already shown its willingness to take the bolder course as the first mover in setting about stabilising the banks. What is needed now is action to stimulate the demand essential for recovery. The UK economy, like economies in the rest of the world, needs a shot of adrenalin.

The Bank of England has already made a significant cut to interest rates. This monetary stimulus now needs to be matched by a fiscal stimulus. And because this is a global crisis this is best done if the benefit of the measures taken nationally is maximised by the same measures being taken around the world. That was the message from the international conference in Washington, as governments recognised the need to take the action necessary to stimulate their economies.

People will say, "But you are resorting to borrowing in order to deliver the stimulus that's needed." My answer to that is, what is the alternative? We certainly haven't heard one from the Conservatives.

David Cameron and George Osborne, trapped by their desire to oppose everything the government does, refuse to accept the scale of the challenge the world's economies now face and the prescribed international action. Their stance appears to be, if the rest of the world disagrees with us, it is because the rest of the world is wrong. The result is incoherence and an Opposition at sixes and sevens. One minute this is "do all it takes" and the next it is - as we heard this week - leave the recession to "take its course".

Sitting on our hands watching houses repossessed and businesses go to the wall is certainly not the approach being urged on me by people I have been speaking to up and down the country. They want their government to act to stimulate demand in the economy here and now. With all due prudence, that is what we are going to do.

Diane Coyle

Author and economist

The G20 meeting confirmed a robust and rapid response (by past standards) to recession, even in the US operating under a rump free-market administration. Policymakers around the world have been shaken to see the financial system at the brink of collapse - on their watch.

Yet it is difficult to predict how severe the recession will be. Bank lending to businesses and individuals is virtually frozen. In many (but not all) areas of the economy, activity has come to a halt. The last financial boom and bust, ending in 2001, had surprisingly little impact on jobs and growth, as the financial bubble had become increasingly untethered from anything real. Today's vicious circle of evaporating liquidity is much more serious, but lower interest rates and bigger government deficits will help. The underlying trends are easier to outline. Some challenges are clearly unaltered, such as climate change and our ageing society.

The technological opportunities are still there, too, in communications, the internet and biotechnology. Globalisation will be less driven by finance in future, but it will not be unwound. It would take a generation to turn back the clock on economic linkages, and the cultural impacts are permanent. In fact, the crisis has underlined our interdependence across national borders.

What has changed is the political economy of globalisation. In the triad of efficiency, fairness and freedom which dominates political choice in democracies, fairness will take priority in the years ahead, and the drive for ever greater productivity gains will retreat. The semi-nationalisation of the banks has started to shift the boundary between public and private domains; we will have to think more carefully about how to govern private choices that have big social spillovers. The G20 did not touch on this profound question of governance.

Iain Macwhirter

Political commentator

The G20 was largely a throat-clearing session and was never going to put in place the foundations of a new international financial system. Progress on the stalled Doha trade talks is encouraging but provides no guarantee that protectionism will not raise its head in the coming economic slump.

It is inevitable that countries faced with financial collapse will try to defend their economies by any means possible. Britain is already far down the road of "beggar my neighbour" economics by the "managed" devaluation of the pound, a crude attempt to boost UK industry by lowering the prices of British exports and creating a de facto tariff wall around imports from abroad. It won't work because Britain does not make much of anything any more except debt, and the world has plenty of that already.

But the collapse of the pound will seriously damage what is left of UK financial services. No one in their right minds would put money into the UK economy now, with the property market collapsing, UK banks insolvent and government borrowing likely to reach £100bn in the next 18 months.

Gordon Brown seems to believe that sterling is like the dollar, and that people will buy our dud pounds whatever the likely losses. However, as we are discovering, sterling is not a reserve currency and unlike the US we cannot force other countries to pay our debts. The future for our battered island is likely to be hyperinflation punctuated by appeals to the International Monetary Fund for emergency aid. Forget about spending our way out of recession - the UK government simply lacks the resources to fund the huge borrowing that would be required. Something will have to give. Brown will have cause to regret being so beastly to the Icelanders.

Richard Reeves

Director of Demos

James Carville, the hardened political aide to Bill Clinton, said that if he was reincarnated he'd want to come back as the bond market: "You can intimidate anybody." Right now it seems odd to think of any financial markets threatening anybody. But it is one of the ironies of the current economic situation that the capital markets still have some serious muscle.

Western governments, faced with recession, need to throw a lot of money at their ailing financial institutions - money that can be raised only by selling Treasury debt, mostly to the capital-rich investors of the Far East. For Gordon Brown, this is likely to become a more difficult sell, as Prudence is given the push and the pound takes a nosedive. Even national exchequers invite sceptical scrutiny in this new, nervous world.

The financial crisis is at heart a loss of faith. The word credit derives from the Latin credo - "I believe". When the Titanic of the financial world - in the shape of Lehman Brothers - was allowed to sink, the bonds of trust stretching around the world were snapped. In an instant, everyone stopped believing in each other.

A number of sensible measures should be on the agenda when the G20 reconvenes next year, including legislation to ensure bonuses in financial services are paid on the basis of five-year performance; new "pro-cyclical" provisioning rules requiring finance houses to increase their store of capital in economic upturns; and tougher, independent regulation of the rating agencies whose doe-eyed assessments of banks built on a mountain of paper helped get us in this mess.

There is, however, no quick technical fix for such a dramatic loss of confidence. Trust can be lost in the blink of a market-trader's eye - but it will take years to rebuild.

TEN THINGS THEY ACHIEVED

  • 1 Created a road map aimed at stabilising the world economy and overhauling the banking system with targets for the end of March 2009
  • 2 Advocated Keynesian big-spending “fiscal stimulus”
  • 3 Expanded from a small club making world decisions to recognise the importance of the economies of Brazil, Russia, India and China
  • 4 Agreed to reform international finance institutions, including better transparency and supervision of credit ratings agencies
  • 5 Agreed that the Financial Stability Forum should include emerging economies
  • 6 Banks and hedge funds to hold increased levels of capital and cash
  • 7 Recommended “supervisory colleges” for all major cross-border financial institutions
  • 8 Return to the Doha round – trade ministers to meet in Geneva next month
  • 9 Instructed G20 finance ministers to draw up plans and timeline
  • 10 Agreed to meet again, in London next April

. . . AND FIVE THEY DIDN’T

  • 1 Agree a future growth model for capitalism. Instead they reconfirmed their “shared belief in market principles”
  • 2 Agree detailed plans for regulatory reforms of banking
  • 3 Establish a plan of action for achieving the already endangered Millennium Development Goals
  • 4 Set up an international supervisory body with sufficient power to control global markets
  • 5 Halt the run on sterling, which fell sharply against the euro and dollar
Alyssa McDonald

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112 comments from readers

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 10:51

To comment, or not to comment? Is it worth commenting, when the above will likely be broken up, or taken off?

Its the kings new clothes all over again...read them all as they dance around the hidden agenda.

8 years and 8 days ago we had the Glass-Steagall Act, this act was enacted in 1933...nearly 70 years of relative stability.

The idea peddled by those above, that this enonomic crisis came from nowhere, is plainly a sad joke played on the people of earth. I could go on, but I`m likely to be censored for what I`ve already said, but then, we do live in VERY dark times.

To the Bilderbergers among you, we know your game, we know where this is all leading. You, yes, thats right, all of you to some degree are responsible, responsible for the failure of our sham democracy.

FreedomLand
20 November 2008 at 11:21

"Catastrophe averted" - this is a joke, right?

"Created a road map..." - proof of impending disaster!

"Expanded from a small club..." - have been asleep for the past two decades.

"...better transparency and supervision of credit ratings agencies..." - ha ha, ha ha, ugh!

"Banks and hedge funds..." - just register yourself as a bank and you'll be OK.

" Agreed to meet again, in London..." - same fate as the next Olympics, Boris, duh. "Of all the gin joints in all the world, you had to pick this one..." Casablanca (1942 - same vintage as Bretton Woods, uhh).

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 12:52

Will Hutton States;

"The bad news is that much of this is shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted."

Is this not what most regulation is?

Regulation is,quite often. made in response to what is already in place.

Those who wish to create new methods, instruments, tools etc to avoid tax or in seeking new ways to increase their chances of making more, have to most of the time manoeuver around whatever regualation already exists.

And so the regulatory bodies have to play catch up.

All this of course assumes the powers that be want to regulate.

As we all know this has not been the case in the past.

So there has been no door to bolt.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 15:04

I'm closest to Anne Pettifor in my evaluation, but she pulls her punches, I have no such qualms, considering the dire straights we're in, not that my tiny contribution will help. Our leaders and their minions remind me of the three monkeys and have done for years.

I honestly don't believe they, or most of the above 'expert' commentators see the world as it really is. Not only that, I don't believe our political class, are even capable of understanding it, because of the extraordinarily narrow social strata they are recruted from, virtually the same educations, and they all adhere to the same redundant ideology, that actually hides the way the 'market' 'works.'

Also, we are not at the beginning, or in the middle of a crisis; or a 'credit crunch' which sounds almost managable; we're only at the start of, if we aren't extraordinarily fortunate, potentially the worst economic crisis in history, and tragically it may well become a 'permanent' feature, lasting a very long time indeed.

This comforting idea or hope, that some kind of 'irrational fear' lies at the root of our problems, that all we really lack is 'confidence' is fundamentally false. The American sub-prime crisis didn't just appear out of nowhere, it had concrete causes in the 'real economy'. It's a basic misunderstanding to think that sub-prime was the source of the 'contagion' it wasn't it was only the first symptom of far deeper and more serious desease at the heart of the economy.

Are we really supposed to accept that a relatively small number of defaults on mortgages in the United States was the reason why the American banking system collapsed? This doesn't add up, even if one is using the absurd mathematical models the economic 'priesthood' swear by! No, the entire, gigantic, house of cards was built on sand and was ready to fall, or burst, not like a bubble or a baloon, but like the bloody Hindenburg

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 15:16

Alex Brummer;

"Almost all that was agreed could have been decided before the leaders left home"

Exactly. And in these days of video conferencing the mind boggles at why so much expense was incurred when it could so easily have been achieved for a few bob. These people are just inebriated with their own unimportance.

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 15:27

James Buchan;

".. Brazilian president, Luiz Inácio Lula da Silva, said. "There is no logic to making any political and economic decisions without the G20 members - developing countries must be part of the solution to the global financial crisis."

Looks like he has surrendered already, arms up in the air. Or is it a realization any dissent would be like banging his head against the wall?

writeon
20 November 2008 at 15:31

If we follow the recipe our leaders are advocating, pseudo-Keynesianism, we'll all go down like a lead balloon. It isn't going to work, because the times are not the same as they were during the Great Depression, they are far worse. Therefore, massaging Capitalism, saving it from itself, which was Keynes' way, won't have the desired effect this time around.

We are entering a fundamentally different world and the computer models we use, don't and cannot understand this, so they are almost useless, they don't think, they only add and subtract.

What really shocks me, and then again, it doesn't; is what a tremendous lack of imagination, critical thought and macro-economic knowledge, there is at the centre. If there had been we wouldn't have reached the disasterous situation we're in now. These bankers all think alike and believe in the same false Gods. How the hell do we get new people, with new ideas into positions of power, so we have at least a chance of avoiding the coming catastrophe, or is it just too late? And have things got to take their terrible and destructive course?

We are up against market forces which are not only vaguely understood, they are also not controlable. They are simply way too big and too powerful. Arguably our current leaders are probably making things worse and not better by creating even more debt, adding more fuel to the great, debt, black hole, that's swallowing everything up. Is this even remotely sensible or even logical?

How big is the debt hole vortex? Vast and growing. It's at the very least, ten times the size of the world's GDP, so explain to me how fiscal adjustments are going to plug it? It's a thirty year debt-illusion, and now it's collapsing. We need drastic and fundamental changes, to the very structure of Capitalism. How does one introduce these changes, without challenging the rule of the dominant Capitalist class, who've reaped such vast profits from the world they have formed over the last thirty years?

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 15:33

Paul Mason;

"... the growth model based on high debt instead of high wages has failed and will be hard to revive."

SPOT ON.

The benefits from a fiscal stimulus are in the main going to pay off the credit card debt that individuals have hanging around their necks. Stimulus to the economy? Zero.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 15:55

After all that, am I supposed to come up with something positive, some hope? If I do, will I get a prize?

Prohets of Doom have been given a bad press, sometimes they were right, as one would expect. The joke about economists who've only been right about three of the last seven recessions they've forecast, doesn't apply here, because we're in a 'recession', the only points of debate are how deep and how long it'll be.

Cassandra had problems, she not only had the ability to see into the future, but unfortunately she had the curse that no one would believe her warnings. It must have felt like that for the handful of economists and others who desparately tried to get people to think about where we were heading with our insane economic policies, but the ruling elite, and others in the media, who should have known better and asked questions, were making so much money from the giant, inflating, bubble; so easily, that they all thought it would go on forever.

For at start 'trickle down' is finished. What we need is 'float up' instead. The exact opposite of the policies of the Chicago School. Monitarism needs to be rejected and the ultra-Liberal market model. This is, of course far easier said than done. A return to old-fashioned Keynes isn't the answer either and this is where things get complicated and hard, where one faces the nature and distribution of wealth and power in society, where things get very, very, Political!

We need a radically different, political, economic and social paradigm, which at its heart faces the thorny challenge of how we organize our economy on a very small planet with a rapidly growing population, with great economic aspirations, which has finite resources and a finite and fragile biosphere.

We have to replace Capitalism, which serves the interests of the few, with an economics that serves the interests of the many and the planet. Ánd this won't be easy, but it is necessary, and, in reality, we don't have a choice.

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 15:58

Peter Mandelson;

"... I have been speaking to up and down the country. They want their government to act to stimulate demand in the economy here and now"

Yes indeed they do. But why is the government not taking the bull by the horns and taking far stronger measures, The banks have taken our money and yet they refuse to pass on any benefits to creditable loan seekers for small business or private use. Total Nationalisation of all those who took tax payers money should be the objective.

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 16:10

Diane Coyle;

"The semi-nationalisation of the banks has started to shift the boundary between public and private domains; we will have to think more carefully about how to govern private choices that have big social spillovers"

Of all the comments made this one sentence is by far the most important of all.

What is enshrined in this sentence is; how our world is going to develope; will it be a civilised society based on co-operation, equality, social justice for all or will it be one in which the tenets of Thatcherism persists and everyone are looking after numero uno?

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 16:26

A little interlude in the great crisis....why have nine nukes been detonated in the Canadian artic?

Some speculate hastening a magnetic flip, or some other major crisis, as stated by Joe Biden!!

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 16:39

writeon

20 November 2008 at 15:55

Your final paragraph of the last comment is spot on.

You and i may agree, but the big question is how do we carry the likes of the USA population with us. Or do we go it alone?

My fears at present are based around trying to avoid being seen as a doom monger, unfortunately i cant see anything else other than the next 5 to 10 years being amongst the darkest years outside of a war torn world war.

Greed has become too entrenched in the western worlds way of life and has become a major factor in inability to for the system to progress out of the crisis.

Various commentators talk of; faith, trust and confidence and i agree. But , my view is that its not a loss of faith,trust or confidence with just the system, or the banks but it is rather a loss with our fellow human beings.

Mans inhumanity to man takes place not just in the world of physical and mental violence but far worse it takes place at the level of personal greed.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 18:28

Nilsey105,

I feel I should restrain myself and 'moderate' what I really think is going to happen. I'm trying, believe it or not, to be optimistic! But as you asked a direct question, I think it's only polite to reply.

The US population, isn't as 'conservtive' as many people think. But the political system doesn't favour the majority of Americans or express their wishes adequately, in fact it does the opposite, it favours rule by a fabulously powerful and wealthy groups of elites, under the 'twin party' system.

Opinion polls show that most Americans want pretty mucht the same things people in Europe and most other countries want. A kind of left of centre, social democratic, welfare state, not all that dissimilar to the Scandinavian coutries - if you will Capitalism tamed, Capitalism with a human face. However, this isn't reflected in their political institutions, because they are owned and controlled by the rich, the few, not the many.

There have been several polls in the United States in the last couple of years that indicate that the vast, overwhelming majority of ordinary Americans, feel their country has been going down the wrong road for a long time. There is enormous disatisfaction with the political system and a collosal desire for change.

The problem isn't really the American people, who are fine, it's their political class and the 'aristocracy' who are determined to rule unfettered by irritating things like democracy, which they have fought toot and nail to control and manage from the beginning of the Republic.

Greed is the public face of Capitalism. It's the carrot that is dangled in front of everyone, both an attainable prize and a warning and form of punishment and dicipline, when it's flipped over into poverty.

I think we should keep the brand name 'Capitalism' but change it out of recognition. We could call it 'Green Capitalism' to keep people reassured, but acually adopt a completely different system.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 18:40

As in the coming period the taxpayer is increasingly going to be asked to support the entire 'free market' system, to avoid collapse. We are all becoming 'shareholders' and we are being forced to pay twice for everything we buy, once in the highstreet and then again through our taxes. Surely, it's only right and proper that we control the systme we are paying for, both directly and indirectly? Effectively we all now more or less own the entire financial system in the UK and the US. Without our money they'ed be bust.

So as we are paying the piper why can't we call the tune? After all the consumer is supposed to be king under Capitalism isn't he? We should demand that we are in control of everything we pay for/buy, isn't that supposed to be the way the market place functions when we buy a bag of potatoes, why should it be different with the banks?

Or are we supposed to believe that the Capitalist class has special abilities and qualities that the rest of us lack? That clearly nonsense given the terrible mess they landed us all in isn't it? Haven't they in fact outlived their usefulness, their historic sell-by date?

They can still keep their jobs, the entire capitalist class, only it'll be us they will be working for, for reasonable wages, nothing outrageous, maximum £100,000 a year across the board. Who needs or deserves more than that? Anyway, where else are they going to get a job? The taxpayer is going to end up owning everything.

writeon
20 November 2008 at 18:56

We need something we could call 'environmental economics'. Instead of the profit motive, we need the environmental motive. Instead of an old-fashioned stock market, we need a 'green market' where all investments are made not on the basis of how much profit is made, profit in itself is an outworn concept, a crude and inaccurate sign of a investments worth. The workers in the City would of course have to be re-educated, but that would only be a good thing, for them and for the rest of us.

Old fashioned Captialism is just too destructive, unstable and wasteful an economic system to survive in the kind of world we are moving into and the new one we so desparately need to create. We surely can't sacrifice the environment for the sake of Capitalism, that would be ridiculous and immoral. It's got to be the other way around I'm afraid. If anything has to be sacrificed it'll have to be Captialism. As it's on its last legs anyway, that won't be such a great loss. We'll be putting it out of its misery, and sending it off to the nacker's yard where things that are worn out and exhausted usually end up.

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 19:37

I really can`t believe the clap-trap in some of these comments. This system will not change, it maybe modified, but it will remain fundamentally the same.

My view is supported by vertually everything that has happened. I have been censored for mentioning the Glass-Steagall Act and its repeal on 12th Nov. 1999, just 8 days after Bush won the US election. Many will say Bush was not a clear winner until January 2000, but I would contend the election was fixed and this is widely understood and accepted.

NS readers are supposed to be intelligent, but they chase tails harder than the politicos and MSM.LOL

The really shocking thing, is that you all ingnor the historical context of what has happened and what likely follows. Maybe you are scared, maybe you are in denial and maybe the NS writers and many of those who comment are deeply embeded in the NWO system...

....its like you are all on Strictly Come Dancing where you step around the names, their crimes and constructs, only to waffle on about some imagined future...a future which isn`t on the agenda.

Today I was taking to a Greek chap, he had worked for his employer for 19 years....yes, he is based in Athens and his employer is one of the last two (considered) Investment banks. Before today, this IB had made two 10% cuts in staff (20%)...this Greacian said a further 20% was cut today, so a total of 40%!!

I very much doubt the government is coming clean on its falling tax take and if it is, there is a TSUNAMI of pain about to land on our beaches.

I am only an average guy and some ply their veiled jibes at me, very mocking, but there is little wool over my eyes. Remember the Dotcom bubble and its correction which which was stopped by Bush and Greenspan, of course you do. It was reckoned that 3rd world income dropped below a Dollar....whatever that is worth...can you imagine what the NWO has unleashed in this crisis???

Contiuned (this is so stupid).

Carl Jones
20 November 2008 at 20:15

This designed collapse will kill millions over the next 5-10 years and this is assuming there is a substantial recovery at some point.

We here about negative inflation, this I believe is just a passing phase. With the trillions of liquidity pumped into the markets, and this will continue. There is no doubt that hyperinflation will STRIKE WITH A VENGENCE....and all of the above will say..."oh dear, we didn`t expect this".LOL

Now when I talk about "hyperinflation", we aren`t on about huge numbers, I`d say anything above 10% and in reality, if we do slip into neg. inflation, then it could be lower.

Now I`m about to suggest something that to be honest, I`ve not heard mentioned ANYWHERE, so this could be a first..LOL

We hear a lot about the developed nations spending their way out of trouble...using debt. Many said the BRIC nations wre decoupled, well, thats brains and education for you.LOL The fact is, they are in trouble, yes, CHINA is in trouble.....not here is the nub. What if China decides to spend and spend and spend its way out of trouble and into a SERIOUS super power??

It is estimated that China spent a billion Dollars on the Olympics & related developement. What if they decide to spend. This would pose problems with the NWO. Commodity prices, especially oil will soon climb and thus crippling any sign of recovery. China might see this as an excellent opportunity for diominance.

It is ASSUMED that China will settle for low (5-6%) growth. But in reality, this is the best time to spend.

Of course, I don`t believe it will get this far. No, I think we are in for some SERIOUS designed NWO trouble and they will get away with this, because no one is asking questions and the MSM are throwing up decoys, such as the ramblings above.

I find it amazing, parents sacrifice their childern in war for old men in power, so there`s nothing new in this financial construct, you lot would burn your own mother as a personal NWO sacrifice.

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 22:13

writeon

Thanks for your reply i have just read it briefly and need to read.

Before doing so i have to ask both you and Carl Jones

your views on the $760trillion credit default swap nightmare that seems to have been pushed to one side and swept under the carpet.

Is it that governments, banks, hedge funds old uncle tom cobbly and all are to scared to push this one as it could well be the button that implodes and brings the system down on its knees?

Nilsey105
20 November 2008 at 22:18

Guardian headline is illuminating our thoughts of what may be on the world agenda.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/20/barack-obama-pre...

writeon
20 November 2008 at 23:12

I don't like to appear negative, or obsessed with Doom. Unfortunately, I don't believe we have a chance of solving our problems if we don't recognise and understand just how big they really are. We need clear thought and unsentimental realism above all.

It's not just the problem of credit default swaps that's looming just over the horizon, there's more out there waiting to surface. Beasts are rising from the deep, ready to walk through the lands of the rich and the free.

The credit black hole is of giganitc proportions and it's collapsing. Everyone wants cash on the barrel now. Confidence in notes of credit is vanishing everywhere. But without credit, which acts like the oil in the great capitalist machine, it risks grinding to a halt, with profound consequences.

But the ammount of cash is so much smaller than the ammount of credit needed to keep the maching running smoothly, by a factor of around thirty. There's too much credit or debt, chasing too little cash.

Wages in the US have stagnated for years, but instead of increasing wages and purchasing power, the US government and the market decided to subsidize the consumer with cheap credit, so profits could be maintained and expanded without having to increase wages. Only now the US consumer can't possibly borrow anymore to keep the economy afloat and a fundamental re-adjustment is required. The US must learn quickly to live within its means and abandon its dream of ruling the world, based on unlimited, foreign credit. It's going to be a very rude awakening for the United States, but very necessary.

Carl Jones
21 November 2008 at 03:45

Nilsey105.

I disagree with the Guardian article. The Western model is an illusion. We never achieved real democracy. I keep using the Great Depression as a near to example. During the 30`s, the UK/US corporations poured capital into Germany and by 1939 we were in the 2nd World War. The public in Britain and America were on their uppers and willing to fight in this elite constructed war.

The idea that Americas military is flagging because of illusions/constructs in Iraq and Afghanstan, simply isn`t true. The US government commissioned a post invasion report at a cost og $6 million, it went in the bin. The US militart requested 200,000 men for the post invasion phase, they got 130,000 men and in the main, these forces (UK as well) were confined to base.

The US has some 650 admitted military bases outside the US. It has facilities in countries you would believe, they have access to technology which really is on the GOD level. Most countries are client states of the US/UK axis, even the ones being cattle proded by Washington.

This representaion of US weakness is an illusion. They`ve had 4 carrier groups on standby in the Gulf/Med area for two years, they`ve been building huge bases in Israel and across the ME. If you don`t believe this isn`t part of a wider agenda, then more fool you.

As to the $760 trillion, its a global WMD, will the NWO deploy part of this WMD, or will they use it all????

I`m not fear mongering when I say the US is finally morphing into a Nationalist Fascist state. These nationalisations aren`t recovery modes, no, thy are maintenence modes. With a few exceptions, there has been a wall of SILENCE over the last 10-15 years, the MC`s believe their leaders do the best they can, even when it stinks.

I was talking with an English lady who lives in DC, she told me that nothing will change, the rich will get richer and the poor will get poorer..there may be less rich for a while.

Continued.

Carl Jones
21 November 2008 at 04:22

The Western elite will not give up their power to Asia. The financial crisis is the first visable action which supports this. If they don`t mind Asia`s ascendence, the financial system wouldn`t have been allowd to crash. I can see a veriety of constructs taking place. More major terror, a pandemic or two which looks natural, massive crop failure[s] and more war, maybe major wars leading to US/EU conscription.

As I`ve said before, any global recovery plan does not have 6.5 billion in the equation. With our understanding and manipulation of DNA, the NWO will rebuild their version of the human race...without the burdon of 4 plus billion people. I believe that most people in the West have already been pre vaccinated by air-drop....I don`t buy all this 4 day flu business and another thing...I wouldn`t rule out Asian elite complicity, in downsizing the global population!!!

BTW, I`m commentting at this early hour, because of earache, now you`ve got it as well.LOL

Always look on the bright side of life. :)

amanfromMars
21 November 2008 at 13:25

Catastrophe averted? You cannot be serious. The fires are only just taking hold and the firefighters are nowhere to be seen.

Re the G20 Sub Prime Puppet Muppet Show, which of course, is changing Nothing, thinking to keep the Easily Hacked and Failed Failing System still in Place, with the same Tired Old Souls still Planning to Milking it for all it is Worth, for all of their Wealth, this is what they failed to communicate ....... http://solari.com/blog/?p=1823 ..... which corroborates the Old Capitalist Guard System .... http://www.fdrs.org/bankers_manifesto.html

However, those were the days when Knowledge was less well known/unshared and ITs Power was easily Covertly Abused for Control of the Masses by the Pathetically and/or Clinically Pathological, with them little realising that their Selfish Abuses would ever be Discovered and Laid Bare before All, for All to See.

And if they continue to choose to stick a two bit plaster on a ten dollar wound, so that they can remain in charge rather than just be suppliers of money, then who can be surprised whenever they go under and disappear as sure as a bad memory .

writeon
21 November 2008 at 16:09

Let just stick to Britain, even though that's difficult as the world's financial system is so integrated and the City's at the very heart of it.

As the banks are apparently not lending enough money to keep the wheels of the economy moving, which has to be our number one priority now; even though we pumped around 40 billion of public money into them and put up another 500 billion as a 'line of credit' also known as 'doing whatever it takes', perhaps we should really nationalise the entire financial sector? Real nationalisation, that is public ownership, and, importantly control, of the entire system would allow us to simply 'order' or direct the banks to start lending, because without adequate credit the system will die, and we can't have that. Do we really have an alternative, if the banks won't or can't lend the ammounts we need?

However, there are lots of problems involved. If the very heart of the capitalist system were taken into true public ownership, what would happen to the rest of the body? Wouldn't this mean the slow 'socialisation' of huge areas of the real economy as well?

The government has 'half-nationalised' the financial sector, isn't that the worst of both world's, liability without control, half-responsibility and a failing system.

The creation of a state bank, a true Bank of England, is one way to really begin to stabilise the system and begin to channel money and credit where it's most needed. It may look like 'socialism' but do we really have choice?

Perhaps the private banking system has reached the end of the line and now we need to develope an alternative?

amanfromMars
21 November 2008 at 17:40

"The creation of a state bank, a true Bank of England, is one way to really begin to stabilise the system and begin to channel money and credit where it's most needed. It may look like 'socialism' but do we really have choice? " .... writeon 21 November 2008 at 16:09

writeon,

That appears to be the Dutch Fortis ABN Amro route too. A Marriage of Convenience to Create a Knock Out Partnership ....... Power Couple. Now they just have to find Beta customers to make them Money with the Money they are given. Leaving it in the Banks would be a Sin/Terrible Waste/Crime. Currency is for Spending in Order 42 Generate ITs Power of Invention in Man.

writeon
21 November 2008 at 19:21

It sounds almost like science fiction, or historical fiction, but what if the banking system we've known since the creation of, arguably the first modern bank, the Bank of England, in 1649, is coming to an end?

The bank was started with £1,000,000 in gold provided by a 'pirate' , probably stolen from the Spanish, who stole it from the Incas. This huge sum then set the entire banking system rolling and growing. Of course they lent far more than a million as the confidence and faith in the system this sum created, was worth more than just a million. One had learnt how to create money, credit, out of thin air!

Recently we've learnt how to create truly vast sums out of thin air, which the consortium behind the Bank of England could only dream of. Banks and financial institutions have been selling credit at thirty of forty times, even apparently up to one hundred times the 'real value' of the real world assets this debt was built on. Quite extraordinary really.

The Big Question is, have we reached the end of a three hundred year era?

Carl Jones
21 November 2008 at 20:46

Yes, but we are entering a new era...you will note the superb timing that Amerikan power is on the wane and that we are moving into a multi polar world....lol.....another NWO illusion.

Britain appeared weak during the mid 30`s and look what happened. When the money runs out, there is only one thing left to do, fight.

Nilsey105
21 November 2008 at 20:48

writeon

The roots of the modern banking system firmly lay with the Medici family. And inparticular Cosimo Medici. In ancient Venice the role of money lending was the sole domain of the Jews. They werent forbidden to be involved in usury unlike the christians were by the Roman Catholic Church.

me
21 November 2008 at 21:12

writeon,dont try and be nice about it,were all going down togeather in this,what other way is there?

Nilsey105
21 November 2008 at 22:17

well, well, well Citi Bank is now being predicted to go down.

Its too big to save;

$2 trillion in assets: That’s three times more than Wachovia and six times more than Washington Mutual

Derivative time bombs worth a staggering $37.1 trillion: Its derivative holdings are eight times greater than what Wachovia had when it fell apart.

The American Banking sector is back to were it was prior to the $700 bn bailout.

Yesterdays losses;

Goldman Sachs fell 5.7%. Wells Fargo dropped 7.7%. Morgan Stanley plunged 10.2%. Bank of America cratered 13.9%. And JP Morgan Chase crashed 17.9%.

Looks like "me" on the above post is correct

"were all going down togeather".

Nilsey105
21 November 2008 at 22:19

The next phase?

Only one option left; Total nationalisation.

Like it or not have you an alternative?

FreedomLand
22 November 2008 at 05:00

#Nilsey105: "Citi Bank is now being predicted to go down..... Derivative time bombs..."

Thes ARE the results of the refusal to accept any other than Machiavellian politics in the past 60 years - and the denial of the inevitable consequences of a $US fiat currency backed by force and the credit bubble created to pay for the wanton expenditures of the military-industrial complexes of the world.

amanfromMars
22 November 2008 at 08:23

"Yes, but we are entering a new era...you will note the superb timing that Amerikan power is on the wane and that we are moving into a multi polar world .... lol ..... another NWO illusion." ..... Carl Jones

21 November 2008 at 20:46

CJ,

Would you agree that the NWO are also delusional? And therefore, who/what are Driving Events Today for Presentation, Tomorrow.

Who are, in Reality, the Virtually New Statesmen of Tomorrow, Planning the Future with no Impediment or Need of the Past and its Global Failures?

And please don't give us that tired old Bilderberger/Skull and Bones/Trilateral Commission/Rothschild/Rockefeller guff, for they QuITe obviously have no Control of Order at All having apparently Sold themselves and their Friends down the river for the Chaos Model instead.

Not very S.M.A.R.T. of them and the Arrogance of the Model has them Blinded to their Own Reinforcing Downfall with the Confiscation/Evaporation of Corrupt and Corrupting Corporate Wealth that would Enslave Subject to Pay for their Positions of Power.

However, .... All that it takes for Progress is for IT to Change the Game with AI and a New Perspective which is Completely Normal albeit a tad Alien in its Approach ........ but then Anything Really New Always Is ...... and that is something which is Hard for the Immature Mind to Grasp and Resolve. Fortunately though, it does not stop the Rapid Progress of Others who have Resolved IT Enigmas in ITs Virtualised Fields of Universal Command and Control, which Ascend into Commend42Control Powers at ITs Higher XXXXtraPolation Levels.

Carl Jones
22 November 2008 at 09:37

"Guff", I don`t think so. You of all people should know how EVERYTHING is tied in. If you are for example, the ruling elite in Argentina, you are the top of that local construct. You remain there, only bexause the UK/US elite is happy. So now view the Argentinian elite as a "devision head in some global corporation, because this is reallity. Now you know how things are done. Devision heads tow the line by the letter and even if the entire corporation is suffering, the Christmas party is cancelled, pay is cut and layoffs wreak havoc with your devisional operation....as devision head (eg Agentinian elite) you aren`t going anywhere.

There are about 5000 CFR members, We have Chatham House. There are 100`s of elite backed thinktanks, 26 admitted US intelligence agencies,

then the master operational brain MI6!

Stephen Roach Chief Economist for Asia was predicting the US current financial construct 5-6 years ago. Of course, Roach wasn`t spot on with the timing, but who could predict the conspiracy that all the banks would stop lending at the same time. Because is reality, the credit bubble construct had been a NWO running policy for all of the Klinton years and was further fueled by Greenspan`s monstrous 1% rate and Bush`s mega tax break fed the NWO fires....and wait, this just all fell apart after Beijing and before the stupendouse election of a Kenyan as US president.

The idea, based on one well timed report, that Amerika is finished, that the G20 (lol) are chasing events is a good laff. As I have outlined above in simplification, everything is going to plan.

Come on, you enjoyed the Great Depression-2nd World War game....here`s the 21st century rematch in HD.LOL

fairplay
23 November 2008 at 04:32

after reading all the above posts it seems that we are all in agreement that this is as messy as it gets. there really is no way out. however, no-one seems to mention criminal proceedings, kangaroo courts etc because these treasonous financial crimes have been committed by the elite who are deemed untouchable with the help of so called democratically elected officials who have had their noses in the trough for far too long. unfortunately for us, we have psychopaths in these elite groups who will stop at nothing in their quest for more more more and when biden, powell and albright(3 of many) tell us of a coming calamity in january (maybe al CIAeda nudge nudge wink wink-youknow-those crazy ghost like terrorist guys) you know they mean business.

basically what i am saying is, it doesnt matter how many of these pull the wool over our eyes meetings these clowns have (sorry to all the real clowns working in bonafide circuses). the only way out of this mess for the architects is an event/war as mindblowingly vicious as it gets to take our eyes off the ball while they work out how to complete this worldwide coup de grace.

you can talk about nationalisation, regulation etc as long as you want but this situation is every james bond film rolled into one. we do have a cabal of very powerful men who plot these things. they know the consequences years before (its not rocket science to see this was going to fail from the start) and they enjoy the confrontation. its a game. and we are the pieces being moved around.

how we have been sucked in by "sub-prime". everyone believes thats the root of the problem. thanks MSM. blame us serfs. its our fault. nothing to do with the criminal counterfeit products sold by goldman sachs and their ilk for the last few years .

the USA is now a 3rd world country. they produce nothing. we are next!

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 09:13

Fairplay, I have mantioned a broard remit public inquiri

y, I speculated around 100 executions from parliament, BoE, the City and FSA. The rest would face life in a specially constructed prision. which would act as a warning to anyone who has the hands on OUR MONEY!!

However, the Newstatesman censored me.LOL

I also believe I was the first (on here) to comment about Joe Biden`s comment, that Obama will face a serious CONSTRUCTED crisis in the first few months of 2009 and I also mentioned that Paxman had questioned a leading Neocon about Biden`s comments.

With all these unemployed and no prospect of serious job creation for many years, we WILL see the return of conscription to fight in the coming NWO designed wars.

On a seperate, but connected point, Jacqui Smith`s website now says you will need an ID card to access private serices....this is assuming there are any private sector services left.LOL

Eventually, you will need an ID card to renew your passport. I did make enquiries with the French Embassy about seeking excile in France. I received no reply, so it looks like I`ll have to pop in and see them. I know the French have ID, but thats all it is. Here in Britain, everything you do with your ID card will be stored by the state forever...no to mention the fact thats its a waste of public money.

"The USA is now a 3rd world country", pictures of Katrina (man enhanced/drirected) spring to mind. Just as Britain appeared weak in the 30`s, Today its the US/Nato/Iraq/Afghanistan construct which gives the illusion of weakness, as new horrific NWO constructs come online next year, this will further support CONSCRIPTION, that WE will sacrifice our children for old men in power.

Since the 9/11 lie, we in the West have been pummeled by NWO fear and lies, one NWO construct after another, but the best is yet to come. :)

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 12:04

I read in todays Times, that police are to get 10,000 taser guns to fight violent crime...deconstructed: to maintain public order.lol

amanfromMars
23 November 2008 at 13:21

And is all that woe from the master operational brain MI6!?, CJ.

I am not at all impressed if it is, for it is Mega Sub Prime. Is that the Best that they can Offer ? Whatever are they thinking? Are they ill/sick/crazy or just out of their depth nowadays?

amanfromMars
23 November 2008 at 15:47

"the USA is now a 3rd world country. they produce nothing. we are next!" .... fairplay 23 November 2008 at 04:32

I think you'll find that ESPecial Forces will not allow that, fairplay.

Nilsey's comment was quite prescient .... Nilsey105

21 November 2008 at 22:19

"The next phase?

Only one option left; Total nationalisation.

Like it or not have you an alternative?" ..... http://cryptogon.com/?p=5237

Nilsey105
23 November 2008 at 17:02

IMF Chief Economist: “The Worst is Yet to Come”

http://cryptogon.com/?p=5234

Dated today 23-11-08

Doom and gloom gets more and more likely.

time to hibernate till its all over.

Camus
23 November 2008 at 17:23

Write on: " We have to replace Capitalism, which serves the interests of the few, with an economics that serves the interests of the many and the planet. Ánd this won't be easy, but it is necessary, and, in reality, we don't have a choice." There was one, remember? Known as Socialism, it imploded when the USA upped the ante and left the USSR gasping for breath. You may have something, but as T.G. Ash put it in the Guardian a while ago, the alternative may be a form of Chinese capitalism in which success drives all and human rights are simply shelved for the duration.

I suggest that the economists (those who claim to undertand what's going on) should meet under the chairmanship of Paul Krugman, who seem like a decent man, and come up with solutions that the politicians can understand. They ask the bankers to tell the what to do, which is like asking the fox to keep an eye on the hen house (where did I read that?) But I admire your tenacity and your willingness to get into an argument. keep going.

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 17:41

Camus, nice, but get real. The bankers are still holding the high ground. Brown has tried and now Mandelson says he`s trying to get the banks to lend, but they won`t.LOL

And to spell out "DESIGNED financial crash, the government is failing to lead, in fact it can`t lead because the banks manufactured this crisis, of course, the BoE, FSA and parliament were complicit.

Camus
23 November 2008 at 18:59

Carl, we are all amateurs in a world we don't comprehend. Read John Lanchester in the London Review and you'll see that even the bankers don't understand what has happened. So a new start is necessary. I'll think of eomething in a minute - just hold on!

writeon
23 November 2008 at 21:16

When I criticise 'capitalism', if this system really exists anymore in its 'classic' form, it's because I believe it's simply past its historic sell-by date. I think the Chinese and Russian versions have more of future than the US model, which is too wasteful, bloated and anarchic. Now, as we enter a far more constrained environment in relation to vital resouces and raw materials; 'capitalism' which is far more rigerously controlled, directed and managed, will become the norm because we don't have time or room, or resources for the 'frontier' version anymore.

I think 'human rights' are not universal, but specifically tied to a period and level of economic and social developement. Perhaps, like 'bourgeois democracy' they are a product of wealth and security, something we can afford, a luxury, along with the fetish of individualism and 'freedom.'?

Strangely, I think the banks actually understand more about where we are than the politicians. That is why the banks, despite the massive bailouts aren't lending, becuase they don't see how the bailout strategy can possibly work. The losses are too big and the state's resources too small. Perhaps the current system cannot be 'saved' or 're-booted' back to business as usual? What if it's a massive systemic failure?

Obviously the banks, like everyone else, have an interest in pretending that the system can be fixed and that it isn't dying. They and the politicians are like Hitler and the aristocracy of the Third Reich sitting in their bunker in Berlin, dreaming of rescue by armies that don't exist, super-weapons; and all the while the Russians and reality draws nearer.

Tax cuts, lower VAT, and public works; are really just even more borrowing and the creation of even more mountains of debt; but wasn't the creation of the vastly inflated debt bubble what got us into this mess in the first place. Is the creation, this time with the state leading the dance directly, of even more debt, really the answer to our problems?

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 22:54

Camus, sorry, but I am a professional, I have been comprehending for many years and until someone comes along with a better analysis, I`ll keep my own counsel.

Bankers are two a penny, but their is still no price on the ELITE (NWO).LOL

Carl Jones
23 November 2008 at 23:25

writeon, there are two ways of looking at the current play. Either the bankers/NWO knew their model was eventually doomed t failure, or they all conspired to block fuel to the engine. To be FRANK, it really doesn`t matter.

We are a fairly elite forum, when we aren`t being censored. But where are the bankers? What do they have to say? NOTHING!!

I had a banker ask me "what am I going to do"? Another said "I`m not very good with my hands, that is going to very important in the future"....these are serious quotes!!! 40% of Morgan Stanley have gone!!!:)

The reality of what is happening, is that the elite are building a new platform with a plain white canvas....choice colors are RED & BLACK. LOL

This weekend, higher rate tax, VAT cuts and tax cut for the poor....its a joke..how long will these take to come into effect? All Brown is trying to do is put off the break down in public order.

They may well bring in a Russian/Chineses system, but only to keep some sort of stability/public order..

Nilsey105
24 November 2008 at 00:46

http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=081122230427.xqkurul...

a.m.r.
24 November 2008 at 00:50

Having everyone have a high minimum level of living is a noble idea, and perhaps we'll get there fully when abundant energy & intelligent robots are achieved.

In the interim, though, what do we do?

Strict socialism, the state or communal ownership of the means of production (and property?), seems faintly ridicukous, heavy-handed, and knowing what we do about the dangers of investing too much power in the state, inadvisable. Are there any examples of successful socialist states?

The Swedish model is perhaps closer to this version of utopia - instead of socialism, there is very heavy taxation, and large-scale state involvement mandated by the people in an ongoing democratic self-evaluation. The enterprise relies on entrepreneurial capitalist drive to power it.

And therein lies the 'problem' - people work best when they are working of their own free will, for their own personal interest (which may or may not cover self, family, friends, neighborhood, nation, the planet, etc.).

Yet in the capitalist system, those with greater access to capital have greater opportunities to create more capital. Offsetting this, making the system fairer, are (high) taxes and the extension of credit to a broad range of people by banks, allowing start-up companies to form, and a welfare system to provide the safety net for everybody.

If I may offer one suggestion (and my knowledge of economics is restricted) :

Part of the current problem seems to be a loss of confidence in the banks, specifically, fear about the safety of investments held by the banks on behalf of their clients, and of the banks unwillingness to extent credit in an uncertain climate.

Would it not make sense for the governments to create state-owned banks with a simple charter: 1) Lend directly to people, and perhaps 2) Hold savings for anyone who wishes, with the guarantee that the savings will not be used to play the market (of course, interest earned on savings will be correspondingly unexciting).

Bad idea?

amanfromMars
24 November 2008 at 06:54

"Perhaps the current system cannot be 'saved' or 're-booted' back to business as usual? What if it's a massive systemic failure? "

Business as usual with Banks laundering/inventing toxic funds/delusional future funding streams which enrich only themselves and create impotent empires ........ and all of the bailout action is nothing any different for it has made absolutely no impact at all on the big picture, other than to highlight the charade and expose it as a perverse crooked game ..... is not something which is going fly again, is it, for who needs such criminal ASBO behaviour. Living the high life on other people's money and money which is printed freely but delivered miserly/subjectively to the crooked enterprise formulas which require it repaid with interest/money for nothing which increases the price of everything inexorable, even though the money spent is always returned to the System anyway by Third Parties who have received it, is a failed parasitic model which has killed the golden egg laying goose.

And that Realisation Elevates the Capitalist System of Usury and Fractional Reserve Bankers and their Supporters as Public Enemy Numero Uno. They have nothing of Value to Offer Society and only Plan to Saddle Nations with Convenient-for-them Debt ..... which is just a Realised Perception if you Play along with their Dodgy Game.

It is a simple matter to ignore them and treat them as an Irrelevance if they insist on thinking that they are still in Control and Create A.N.Other Base for Wealth in Something Completely Different.

And if they had any Common Sense/Beta Brains at all, they would be Funding it in Order to Stay in the Game, as IT ReDesigns the World to NeuReal DynamIQ Order with Virtually Real, Non State Actors in Control of CyberSpace and Computers and Communications.

Does anyone Care to Bet and Dare 42 Win Win against IT?

And if the West aren't up to it or for it, then the East will Lead the Change with Stealthy Embedded IT Controls

writeon
24 November 2008 at 07:17

The formal ideology of captialism, free market liberalism and assorted theories about how wealth is created, human nature etc. have as much connection to the way the real world objectively functions, as Soviet ideology, dogma, had to the philosophical concerns of socialism/communism; that is, precious little.

What I find faintly amusing, is how those who believe in these twin utopias, resemble each other and use similar arguments to 'explain' why their dreams don't seem to conform to observable, objective, reality. Both groups offer explanations and appologies as to why their pet untopias don't really function and ensure that if they only were given more time and 'purer' versions were introduced with more vigour, the theoretical blessings they are so sure of would finally matereialise. If only it were that simple. I find dogmatic faith in utopias, of the left and right, charming, but misguided.

In our system we exaggerate the importance of individuals entreprenueurs to an extraordinary degree in much the same way the Soviets trumpheted the triumphs of model workers and heroes; they both serve the interests of the dominant ideology and 'prove' how successful it really is.

Marx, for example, well over a hundred years ago, wrote about the collosal success of capitalism in releasing and channelling human and material resources to completely change the world. The capitalist system appeared to work and was successful, but at what cost and for how long? Marx, thought it was just an historic phase, almost a 'juvenile' era, and that we'd, hopefully, eventually, develope a more 'mature' way of organising our economy and society.

Looking around the world today, it's hard to find examples of 'successful' capitalist societies. They are all in deep, deep, trouble and it isn't temporary, it's systemic and structural in nature. The massive creation of debt was an attempt to disguise just how deep the contradictions and problems really were. and now it all falling apart.

writeon
24 November 2008 at 07:44

The title of this article - Catastrohe averted? It's almost funny. The current phase of human development *is* a catastrophe for most people around the world, especially in the poor countries, for the hundreds of millions who live on a dollar a day - barely surviving - seeing their children go hungry, get sick and die. So much needless suffering, so much wasted human potential, and why?

It seems immoral and distasteful the way or brave leaders leap with unusual haste and resolution to save the banks and the interests of the super-rich, the financial aristocracy, when their welfare is threatened; the banks are suddenly too big to fail. Yet the interests of the hundreds of millions of poor and starving don't seem to galvanise them in the same way. Their numbers aren't "too big to fail." They are acceptable, a kind of economic collateral damage.

Why don't we regard the staggering levels of poverty and misery in the world as concrete evidence that the global system of capitalism is grossly 'unsuccessful' and an abject failure for most people? Is it becase we in the west profit so handsomely from this arrangement? What we seem to have created is a global form of 'fuedalism.' With a global aristocracy living it up in a global Versailles, increasingly isolated and above the mass of humanity who see the gap between them and their maters growing wider and wider. It's an immoral, corrupt, decadent, unjust, indefenceable and, ultimately - an unsustainable system, which is collapsing under the weight of it's own inner contradictions and fault lines.

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 08:31

More Dark Forces censorship.LOL

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 09:45

Obama`s coming designed crisis....collapse in Saudi oil production, real or false???

loyaltothetruth
24 November 2008 at 11:16

I have been reading but not posting on the comments for some time and have been trying to understand ideological where a lost of some of youre some what confused "at least from my leftwing position" position are coming from. I just realized today that carl jones and writeon are lyndo larouche follower and if you not then you certainly sound just like him.

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 11:36

Sorry LASTTRUEROMAN, the only thing I follow is my nose.

writeon
24 November 2008 at 12:21

Lastrueroman,

I honestly don't know what you are talking about. I don't actually consider myself particularly "leftwing" on most issues. But then again, I see Pilger, Chomsky, Zinn, Monbiot etc. as middle-of-the-road, moderate "socialists." I'm not sure what these labels really means in today's world, at this particular time.

New Labour, under Blair was supposedly "progressive", like Clinton. I find that notion patently absurd. Though in today's complex world it's possible to have parties that are "progressive" and "reactionary" at the same time.

I think the schism isn't so much between traditional "left" and "right" anymore, but between rival forms of centralised totalitarianism, which can either be relatively benign, when they are not under threat; or repressive and brutal. Britain has seen both types during the last thirty years. One purportedly from the "right" another from the "left." I didn't support any of them. I loathed both Thatcher and Blair. Pretty much in the same way I wouldn't really have liked to choose between Hitler and Stalin in an earlier age.

My ideal society is arguably a form of utopia that's simply not attainable and is totally unrealistic, as most utopia's are. Anarchy isn't on the agenda these days. Maybe in five hundred years. In the mean time. I support the idea of a mixed economy. There's room for a market place, but it would be controlled and subserviant to the democratic state. All the major untilities would be under state control. The financial sector would be under state control as well.

I wouldn't get rid of all private enterprise, only severely restrict it. I'd like to see it pushed firmly back into the market place where it belongs. The ideology that our entire society should resemble a gigantic marketplace, or shopping mall, I personally find rather distasteful. It would be a form of New Merchantilism. I imagine growth would be far lower, but more sustainable and environmentally friendly. A "radical" form of, old, Sweden.

writeon
24 November 2008 at 12:36

Lasttrueroman,

Perhaps, in order to enlighten my confusion, in a concession to my ignorance, and as you seem to know a lot about Lyndon Larouche, more than I do; you'd like to illustrate specifically where Larouche and I am in agreement? Or perhaps your comparison serves an ulterior motive?

As far as I can see, and I haven't spent much time on him, Larouche is generally thought of as a kind of "National Socialist" nutcase, who believes in "conspiracy theories" about many things. I think I heard him once on the radio and I thought he was "interesting" but arguably - barmy!

writeon
24 November 2008 at 13:34

A final few thoughts. As I gaze into my cristal ball, I see an outline of the future.

I don't believe we are moving towards more freedom and liberty, or democracy, where the rule of the people is expanded and their desires about the direction of society taken seriously.

Instead I think we'll see a far more totalitarian type of society develope, where the "free market" "capitalism" will require massive and permanent state intervention, protection, subsidies, bailouts, in order to survive. Of course, in reality, this has always been the characteristic of the relationship between the state and the "market" to varying degrees under different historical conditions; but now it's going to be obvious to all but the most credulous and obtuse, the state and capitalism are going to virtually merge into one and the same thing, unable to survive without each other.

The state is going to become incredibly important for the survival of our economic system, but will it be for the benefit of the many or the few? Will most people effectively become little more than serfs in relation to this new, more radical and harsher form of State/Capitalism? Free only to consume, if they have the money, but that's really about the limit of "New, Improved, Freedom." The death of the concept of citizenship is just around the corner and with it, classic, bourgeois democracy, existing in little more than mere words, but not in practice. Even that, bourgeois democracy, is far too dangerous to be tollerated in the kind of world we are entering.

Of course, in theory at least, people may refuse to accept these changes and revolt and demand their rights; liberty, equality and fraternity, yet I fear in the post-political, post-Enlightenment, era, this is going to be far difficult than many people assume. Arguably the state has never been more powerful, and in contrast the people never weaker, poorly led and lacking in real representation.

fairplay
24 November 2008 at 14:12

writeon

private enterprise is fine and should be encouraged as long as it doesnt happen to be the fraudulent counterfeit enterprises these bankers and their ilk (and dont be naive enough to think someone somewhere didnt plan this whole fiasco) have laid onto us. they have just closed a pyramid scheme down in colombia that the local gangsters were running. sound like it wasnt a patch on the ones that goldman sachs and the like have been selling.

now we have citigroup asking for cash. check the owners of these companies out and you will find they are all connected so citigroup were obviously feeling a bit left out and decided to put their snouts in the trough knowing they could not be refused no doubt. criminal

the answer lies in 2 things which are not possible. good governance providing for the will of the public and sound fiscal policies with the outlawing of these crazy get rich quick schemes that produce nothing apart from a few wealthy hedge fund managers at the expense of millions. there is enough to go around. we can feed, clothe and keep everyone happy without illegal wars and occupations. we can still encourage entrepeneurs and people can still have their luxuries but to do so they need to create something. not fiddle numbers on a screen

enterprise can be a good thing. greed never is. they are not the same animal

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 14:35

writeon, I think some sort of "utopia" is achievable and as I have said before, the power structures and importantly, democracy is scared of success. The construct of left against right, Brown V Cameron and the constant and costly remodelling of services for the sake of change, that ministers can argue about billions wasted on a failed NHS computer system. There should have been a public inquiry by now, prosecutions and convictions!

Brown has missed a blinding opportunity, well its not exactly been missed. I did forward this to my MP Kate Hoey, in the mindboggling hope that she`d pass it on.LOL Labour should be building a million new LA rented homes....rents paid to local government, instead of feeeeding the City flith. But is it clear, Brown is joined at the bankers hip.

I`ve been talking about a conspiracy theory for years. I have said in the past, upto 5/6 years ago, but now I can remember posting about this financial crash at the start of the Bush years and I`ve debunked quite a few government conspiracies over the years. Even now, I make the odd quip on here, but Ben and his dark forces mentors soon have them censored.LOL

My conspiracies centre on "population", "energy", "weather/natural event control/modification", "NWO", "sham terror/false flag events", "Iraq/Afghanistan", "MSM lies", "the global warming sham, now called climate change" and the "democratic illusion". Most would label them as conspiracy theories, but they only get away with this, because the MSM fails to investigate all the angles and report the most basic of facts, thus allowing the NWO to get away with just about anything. Give me 30 minutes on BBC1 at 8pm and I`ll give you an overnight NOP of 80% questioning the official version of 9/11!!! I`d get 70-80% on 7/7. The government can put up who they like, ANYONE, and I`ll wipe the floor with them.LOL

Camus
24 November 2008 at 14:48

Carl, you seem to have a lot of time for your planetary broodings. You may not know this but conspiracy theoreticians are looking for God as the answer to everything (they always deny this of course - read Goethe's Faust . On your climate change front, try http://www.aldaily.com/ where they have an interesting pro-con debate sponsored by 'experts.' The answer is never simple unless you believe in miracles.

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 15:01

fairplay, its not just about "capitalism". The reason why the Glass-Steagall Act was repealed on 12th Nov. 1999, is that it allowed the elite to continue with their barmy globalisation construct. If you listened to Lynas, he`d have you believe the corporations were behind the dafty wafty fight against global warming, NKA climate change (LOL). But the reality is, China is an environmental time-bomb and for the sake of the elite taking their cream cut, cheap products are shipped around the world and all this has been done on staggering Western debt and now the NWO wants to print more debt so that we don`t hang them just yet.LOLJust re-read what the NS tribe has writen, then re-read the comments, either they are in on the plot, or they reply to those emails asking for you bank details...the establishment is playing one of the greatest "hustles" (stings) in the history of mankind....Harry Enfield springs to mind "they saw you coming"...yes, I brought for a fiver, but to you, £500 quid! Suckers!LOL

a.m.r.
24 November 2008 at 15:11

Carl, what are you basing your conspiracy theory re: "weather/natural event control/modification" on ?

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 15:17

Camus, if you read my post again, you`ll see that I say these have only become "conspiracy theories" because the SIS/police/MSM fails to investigate and report basic facts. I have little interest in God, when and if he ever feels ready, he`ll knock on my door.

Here is just one example. I live in Clapham London, about 15 miles from LHR. The planes fly over at about 160-180mph, on final approach. They have a transponder fix on the runway, on most days they can see the runway lights....of course, they are flying on auto, but if the pilot was doing it by manual, they he would be working hard, full concentration, so he can hit the 200ft wide runway at 130mph.

Now lets look at 9/11. There are at least 6 US government sources which state the 9/11 planes were flying at over 550mph when they hit the WTC....imagin that, no transponder and hitting a WTC tower that is 200ft wide at 550mph??? LOL

The slightest imperfection in direction from 1 mile out would result in a staggering miss, travelling at 550mph and just seconds from target. I could reel off another 10 easy to grasp examples that shatter the 9/11 false flag terror construct.

Camus, its NOT A THEORY, its unreported fact.LOL

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 15:24

a.m.r.. I`m not going into detail, but keeping it simple, "electromagnetic weapons". In context, the French government were considering beaming microwaves to power one of their remote islands, instread on building a very expensive power station. The US has already released MSM on microwave crowd control trucks. With the right power, this type of weapon can traget any point on earth and any size of target. Imagine beaming a biliion watts into the Sumatra Trench, or into Katrina. This technology is here, its real and its being used. I could give many other examples, including the BA38 crash and the attempted assassination of Gordon Brown.

amanfromMars
24 November 2008 at 15:29

Reference: writeon.... 24 November 2008 at 13:34

In the Quantum Model, writeon, can both Systems XXXXist in Parallel with One Mentoring to the Other.

a.m.r.
24 November 2008 at 15:56

Carl, hurricanes release heat energy at a rate of 50-200 Terawatts. They do this for days.

(To compare, the rate of energy consumption of all humans was approximately 15 Terawatts in 2004).

The most powerful beam-generators we have can produce power in this range (such as the Z-Machine at Sandia National Laboratories can generate a 260 Terawatt x-ray pulse), but they can only do it for nano-seconds.

Also, how is the hurricane guided to its target?

Where is the evidence upon which you base the idea that we have the power source and the other neccessary technlogy and knowledge to create and control hurricanes?

writeon
24 November 2008 at 16:06

And now for something proactive!

If we're serious about getting things, the economy moving again why can't we have proper "citizen's wage", say £500 a month minimum, for everyone, or maybe a thousand would be better? Let's live a little. The majority could be in vouchers for food, heating, clothing, the necessities of life.

We could also call an immidiate moritorium on all home repossesions for two years at least. This wouldn't be so hard as the state is going to "own" all property soon anyway.

Currently credit card debt is enoromous and people are paying collosal and unreasonable sums in interest. I think it's around 25% on average. The government could lower this interest rate to 5% as we own the banks, and at the same time begin to wean people off of credit.

They announced that only about 300,000 people earn over £150,000 a year in the UK and they only pay a measly, what is it 40% in tax. That seems ridiculously low. It should be raised substantially. Nobody should be allowed to keep over a hundred thousand a year. Who really deserves more? Especially when so many are losing their homes and going without, both here and abroad. The wealth of the country should be shared far more equitably and fairly. Why on earth do we allow such massive and obscene disparities in wealth, how are they justified?

People could also organize a strike. As it almost impossible to strike effectively in "totalitarian" Britain, what about a national, citizen's financial strike? People could threaten a debt re-payments boycott until the points I outlined about, or something like them, are introduced. If the banks can go on "strike" why can't the rest of us? If the government can find so much money for the banks, what about the rest of the population, when is it going to be our turn?

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 16:12

a.m.r. Try looking up HAARP, of course, most of the stuff on the web is propaganda, but you will find some interesting stuff. Its guided by manipulating pressure around it.

You want evidence, I already said that I didn`t want to be drawn into some longwinded debate. As its all squared up in my mind, I just look for examples of deployment.

All I will say, that BBC`s Tomorrows World, predicted weather control within 30 years (when I was a teen), but this quest fell from the MSM radar, when the US military realised that weather control/natural event modification was the most powerful WMD known to man, this also ties in with the scam global warming crowd.

Jane Greene
24 November 2008 at 17:11

Compelling stuff Carl. I think we can all see why you don't want to get into a debate - because your 'evidence' is merely recycled garbage you picked up on loners sites around the web. Cry yourself to sleep at night?

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 18:29

Jane, your timing is as usual immmaculate.LOL

Tell me Jane, is this why No10 used "electromagnetice" counter-messures in the Brown motorcade as a "false no" in their coverup of BA 38, which in reality was a bungled attempted assassination of Gordon Brown.....

.....JANE, I sent No10 a detailed statement, I reported a very serious crime and I`m still waiting for the fuzz to knock on my door.....ICE CRYSTALS!! LOL

"LONERS SITES"....desperation dear Jane!LOL, LOL You are consistantly proving to be an excellent foil, I can see your handle staying , but the keyboard player being moved on.LOL

fairplay
24 November 2008 at 18:46

i hate the words "conspiracy theory". 9 times out of 10 those 2 words mean the truth. the 9/11 investigation, along with 7/7, kennedy, the current crisis, wmds etc etc have not been thoroughly investigated in any way by the powers that be and independent investigators have been denied access to the info neccessary to either put the whole thing to bed or show them for what they are.

total cover ups. we have 5 corporations that own 95% of the worlds media and every one of them is in bed with or belongs to the elite. says it all

Nilsey105
24 November 2008 at 19:02

Didnt the American Army have weather control techniques in use during the war in Vietnam?

Nilsey105
24 November 2008 at 19:24

writeon @

24 November 2008 at 16:06

Careful boy this is close to socialism what your seeking.

The recent salary revelations from the BBC are haveing a profound effect on peoples thinking regarding the licence fee.

£18million over 3 years for an idiot to interview some "celebrities", £1 million a year for Paxman to do 4 nights work and £ 800,000 for Fiona Bruce to do a few News shows and the Aniques Roadshow.

Not only is this amount of money wasted at the BBC but it permeates the whole of British Society.

What footballer or professional sports person warrants millions of pounds per year.

There is no need to mention those in the banking and finacial sectors.

All in all are these people contributing anything really worthwhile to our society?

Even the likes of Will Hutton who has houses for rent contribute more than all of the above. At least he is providing a roof over someones head albeit at a price.

I have no sympathy for anyone who has a credit card and pays 25% interest. Fools.

Oh that includes my own son and daughter btw.

There are cheaper methods of accessing credit.

Neo Liberal economics has just had a major heart attack the next 3 years will be its death unless the recutisation its now being administered pulls it out of the coma.

Maybe what Biden said Obama would have to deal with in the last two weeks of January 2009 will be the

cou de gras. Hopefully.

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 20:08

Who watched "An American Time Bomb" on BBC2 tonight? There is no way out, its war, pandemic and more terror.LOL

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 21:02

Still whining on about deflation? Forget it...HYPERINFLATION is coming, falling rates and staggering monetary growth. Word on the wire, says Obama will nationalize all US banks! Start buying food while you can afford it.

Nilsey105
24 November 2008 at 22:04

CJ

dont you have a garden to grow veg?

Carl Jones
24 November 2008 at 22:45

"Veg", are you trying to encourage more taxation? Flowers, herbs and a bit of weed only. I was off work today, bit of DIY. I nearly needed my foil hat earlier, strongest attack yet, this is what happens when you live near an exchange (nine elms, SIS front.LOL).

I`m going to stop my NS subscription soon, all very sad. I`m doing it, because of the censorship and I then expect Ben to ban me shortly.LOL

a.m.r.
24 November 2008 at 23:09

Carl, I remember HAARP from the 90's.

Your basis for believing seems shaky to non-existent.

You boast of your certainty but decline to back it up.

Again, where is the 50-200 Terawatts-days needed to create a hurricane coming from?

Paul Lettan
25 November 2008 at 02:49

This could have been an interesting discussion on an important topic. But as you say, Carl, "To comment or not to comment?" Is it worthwhile commenting when most of the above (I have just read every posting and thread) is likely to be filed with Lyndon Laroche, Watchtower and all those American sites that see the American people as the "Lost" 13th tribe of Israel who are desperate to convert all jews to Christianity before the imminent Apocalypse. "A crowd flowed over London Bridge, I had not realised death had undone so many."

a.m.r.
25 November 2008 at 04:36

Ok, Carl, I did a web-search for "Bilderberg NWO conspiracy theory", and various unpleasant websites turned up, collections of conspiracy theories bundled together as NWO blah.

Most conspiracy theorists seem to tend to accrete conspiracy theories as they go, even if potentially contradictory. I noticed that according to these websites the NWO is both Nazi and Jewish. Or are the Nazi's meant to be Jews? Carl, as resident NWO conspiracy nut, what is your considered opinion ?

Anyway, this conspiracy must be huge - 9/11 investigation cover-up, 7/7 cover-up, The Royal Family, the CIA, MI6, the military, politicians, the super-rich. Are the employees of the super-rich, such as their chefs or performing jesters, in on secret of the NWO? Another question for Carl.

amanfromMars
25 November 2008 at 06:36

"This could have been an interesting discussion on an important topic. But as you say, Carl, "To comment or not to comment?" Is it worthwhile commenting when most of the above (I have just read every posting and thread) is likely to be filed with........ " .... Paul Lettan 25 November 2008 at 02:49

Paul,

That is a pathetic cop-out of an excuse. New Statesmen are always welcoming of new ideas to embrace and positively reinforce, if you have any.

"Are the employees of the super-rich, such as their chefs or performing jesters, in on secret of the NWO? Another question for Carl." ..... a.m.r. 25 November 2008 at 04:36

I will be very surprised if CJ says yes, rather than just confirming that they are just expendable puppets put out to grass with a library or a faith foundation to play with.

There is more than just a looming problem for the current Iteration of Global Controllers though for there is present disruption of their Sub-Prime Supply of Global Indebtedness MasterPlan Model, which has fallen into Disrepute because if its Defaults in Crippling Toxic Waste....... Parcels of Worthle$$ Paper Junk.

And that is only one of the Weaknesses which renders the Present Elitists, Unfit for Future Services. But you can be assured that there is no Vacuum with their Passing just a Seamless Stealthy Replacement with more Astute and Able Bodied Players, who will be as Invisible as they Choose and Need.

Paul Lettan
25 November 2008 at 09:30

AmanfromMars, if you scroll to the top of the comments you'll see I was quoting Carl. As for all this conspiracy twaddle, what's new about it?

Back in the 60s-70s, Harold Wilson was deemed to be head of the jewish-masonic-communist conspiracy aimed at bringing down western civilisation aided and abetted by the head of MI5/6 and HRH. Flouride in the water would sterilise all who drank it, leaving commies to rule the world and thanks to the Trilateral Commission and the Common Market would sap American power. Proof positive, for the theorists, when Jimmy Carter was elected. GIGO, garbage in, garbage out.

Carl Jones
25 November 2008 at 09:34

Your reaction[s] alone, tells a fantastic story.LOL

I`m not going to cover ground which I crossed years ago.

I make, to the point statements. Readers can open their minds and embrace a new level of understanding. I had a similar reaction on the BBC Today message boards, which became a totally CENSORED forum...largely down to me and this no doubt had some play in their closure.LOL

One reaction, similar to the one above, was my assertion that many ""alledged"" terror attacks were carried out using MICRO NUKES....nukes that you can hold in the palm of your hand......its AMAZING how many "alledged" nuclear scientists dropped into the forum from nowhere.LOL

Yes, they don`t like you talking about US Army available tactical nukes which were on the battlefield in the late 60`s....I know, it was only the size of a shoe box.LOL Of course, these are now, ultra low yeild, but it doesn`t stop there, the US, and no doubt others. Have put a lot of effort into sub-criticality weapons.....

....LOL.....these weapons are way beyond imagined terrorists.LOL The Indonesian governments knows all about NWO micro nukes and they also openly accusse the US government of tampering with H5N1.LOL.

I can understand how upset you all are. That someone (I`m not on my own) can come along and trash global warming....sorry CLIMATE CHANGE!lol Can explain Katrina and Gulf damaged oil rigs (insurance job/higher oil price), can trash the NWO cyclone Nigris attack on Burma, taking 400,000 tons of export rice out of the human food chain.....

.....or even cause an EARTHQUAKE which closed Japan`s largest nuclear power station (look at how quiet this was kept in the MSM (UK new nuclear power stations)....a warning to Japan`s criminal elite, who are looking to break from US control and setup big time in China....a far bigger potential market.LOL

We could go into the NWO benefits of flooding areas of Britain???LOL Or is this too close to home or you?LOL

Carl Jones
25 November 2008 at 12:23

a.m.r.

Point 1. I never said that.

Point 2. If this were true and I was in YOUR place I woudn`t bother replying and would walk on by....

....but it is clear, that you and others here, are prepared to expend so much time and energy replying to my "alledgedly" stupid ramblings.LOL

These are conspiracies, they are not investigated and no one asks serious question, so in the eyes of the few, they feel they can get away with calling them "conspiracy theories".....JFK, isn`t a conspiracy theory, ITS A CONSPIRACY....listen to the witness statements...Diana and Dodi is a conspiracy, its not a theory.LOL

amanfromMars
25 November 2008 at 12:33

"...a warning to Japan`s criminal elite, who are looking to break from US control and setup big time in China....a far bigger potential market." ... Carl Jones 25 November 2008 at 09:34

Now there's a novel opportunity which does not necessarily have to be elitely led by criminals. The Crime would be in not developing the Chinese market big time.

And thanks for the clarification, Paul Lettan ... 25 November 2008 at 09:30 ..... I had indeed misinterpreted the post, although there is still precious little new on this thread to recommend it.

a.m.r.
25 November 2008 at 13:38

Carl : "Point 1. I never said that."

You just made the claim again a few posts ago at 9.34, this time for "NWO cyclone Nigris attack on Burma".

Carl: "...listen to the witness statements...Diana and Dodi is a conspiracy"

Funnily enough, last night I did briefly follow up on Francois Levistre, the key witnesses for the conspiracy case for Diana's car-crash (as presented on the bilderberg.org NWO conspiracy site) .

He gave conflicting accounts of the incident, and it turns out that he's served jail time for theft, burglary and fraud. He was also remanded in custody for attempting to sell for £5000 a child he had fathered with a woman 20 years his junior.

So this is the kind of witness you are relying on, at least in this case of Diana's tragic death.

M. al-Fayed himself has a reputation for lacking honesty - see accounts of past employees, and Lord Justice Baker's judgement in the Diana crash inquest.

It's very easy for you Carl, because you don't have to worry about facts - your conspiracy theories don't survive in a fact-rich environment, and you are so attached to them that you'd rather reject reality than let go of them. You're not even willing to tentatively explore, unless it is in directions which confirm your own beliefs.

That's your choice - perhaps you are unable to do otherwise. Perhaps your self-delusions bring you some solace. Perhaps you hate the world, are unsure of how to get on within it. Maybe this is why you seem to predict terrible scenarios with what appears to be some enjoyment (Carl: "There is no way out, its war, pandemic and more terror.LOL").

By the way, denying the IPCC's case for human-caused climate change is hardly ground-breaking. There are very good reasons to do so, based on available scientific data, and examination of the the IPCC's assumptions, calculations, models and predictions.

But you instead dismiss it by claiming that it's the NWO manipulating the weather with some big mind-control weather gun.

fairplay
25 November 2008 at 18:13

amr

do you believe anything you read in the newspapers? i certainly dont believe at least half of it, if not more. you dont have to be a rocket scientist to know that with all the surveillance, cctv etc today, black boxes?????? that the powers that be could dispel all the myths if the info and proof was available. as far as 9/11 goes if i came home with lipstick on my collar and gave that version of events to my mrs i would be in the divorce courts now. how can 2 planes bring down 3 buildings, all at the force of gravity. wake up man

Nilsey105
26 November 2008 at 00:18

There is often a semblance of truth in most statements that some see as being conspiracy based arguments.

Who considers the cause of the present financial crisis to be the subprime market in the USA ?

How many of you on the other hand believe the real cause to be over production of the globalised economy?

And hands up those who see it all in terms of an elite pulling the strings, manipulating world events to benefit their own self interests?

For me, myself the answer is the second of the three.

The subprime mortgage crises has been has been blamed as the real culprit. But i think the subprime mortgage system was a "set up" to hide the truth and or to divert attention away from the real cause.

So this now places me firmly into the domain of the conspiracy theorist.

Why you may ask, would the powers that be create an illusion to avoid the real reason, as in the second one above, and make us beieve that it was the subprime market all along.

Quite simply if the truth were told,( thats the truth as i see it), then this doesnt just cast a shadow over the capitalist mode of production it shatters totally the myth of free competition being an inextricable part of the CMP. So the use of smoke and mirrors of the subprime market.

This massive overproduction has been the cause of such high levels of debt. Not in the Uk alone but in most of the countries of the EU, USA etc. Once the nodle point had been reached and the selling of debt started to slow down then it became aparent it was time for the plug to be pulled with the resultant credit crisis.

Those who made their crusts will be ok but for those millions of us who didnt we are the ones who are going to suffer.

15% Vat rates wont do anything if you have nothing to purchase goods and services with.

Carl Jones
26 November 2008 at 01:14

Nilsey: YOU ARE NOT A CONSPIRACY THEORIST on this point....countless questions haven`t been asked by the police, government, FSA and BoE..... evidence of conspiracy to defraud the people of the world is everywhere.....don`t give in, its not a theory, its an elite criminal conspiracy and Darling is the court jester...LOL

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 10:43

fairplay:

I assume that were the government to produce every bit of kit & evidence that you demand, you still wouldn't be satisfied - after all, evidence can be faked.

If the towers collapsed at at free-fall speeds, they would have taken about 9.2 seconds to fall. In fact, WTC1 took 13+ seconds to fall. WTC2's time is more difficult to determine, but took at least 15+ seconds to fall.

Also, if they had collapsed at the 9.2 seconds free-fall speed, they would have had much higher kinetic energy at impact, and left a much larger hole in the ground than they did.

Not free-fall then, fairplay.

I recommend these two websites on the whole "9-11 conspiracy" topic:

http://www.debunking911.com/index.html

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227...

And many more websites at http://www.debunking911.com/links.htm .

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 12:43

Oh no - David Shayler, one of the most prominent 9/11 conspiracy theorists, now believes that he is the Messiah.

http://daveshayler.com/

From a Daily Mail interview with Shayler:

----------------------

The terrifying thing is how unshakeable his belief is.

"Everyone's initial reaction is that I must be mad. But I'm not. This is the test of the messianic complex - to know in your heart that something is true, even when everyone else in the world is saying you're wrong."

Many would see the phrase 'messianic complex' - in which the sufferer believes they have transcendent powers and are destined to save the world - as an admission of a psychological disorder. Not David.

But has he never had a wobble? "Yes. On June 30 I got up and looked through all my research and

thought, "Bloody hell, Dave, you're not the messiah, you've just gone completely mad - you're hearing voices, what are you playing at?"

"But the next night, there was that attempted terrorist attack on Glasgow airport and I realised it had been a test of faith. I couldn't believe I'd doubted myself."

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 12:44

Wishing you a speedy recovery, David.

Robert Powell
26 November 2008 at 12:48

Seems they've got Amihai's medication a bit better balanced.

Carl Jones
26 November 2008 at 13:05

a,m.r.

With respect, you and most other people will have seen pictures of empty WTC site. Compared to the actual WTC towers ground area, approx 200ft x200ft x2, is small compared to the entire site. It is clear that as the towers collapsed, top down, structures below ground level were destroyed so that vertually all the debris from the WTC towers rested below ground level. There was so much heat, that NOTHING could be done for weeks!!

Now some might like to cry "conspiracy theory", but there witnesses who were underground in the WTC site and heard explosions, there are witnesses who saw solidified pools of molten metal below the WTC tower bases. Such a large demolition job, without site preperation would pose huge problems. Using micro nukes below the towers provided the space where huge amounts of debris finally ended up. I also would dispute your timings.

Carl Jones
26 November 2008 at 13:07

a.m.r. "Shayler" is still SIS and as a result, I did not attend 9/11 truth meetings in london. These gathering are saturated in SIS filth.LOL

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 13:57

"These people (in the 9/11 truth movement) use the 'reverse scientific method'… they determine what happened, throw out all the data that doesn't fit their conclusion, and then hail their findings as the only possible conclusion."

MIT engineering professor Thomas W. Eager

fairplay
26 November 2008 at 16:03

and building 3 amr?

how about the intact passport of one of the hijackers found intact 3 blocks away?

grow up man

we have lunatics in charge of our governments. they will and do stop at nothing

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 16:58

fairplay, I take it that you accept that WTC1 & 2 did not free-fall to the ground.

Building 3 (WTC7) was 400 yards away from the 1300ft tall WTC1. Whilst the WTC1 floors collapsed downwards, the 1300ft tall perimeter columns fell outwards, hitting WTC7, scooping out a large chunk of the bottom ten floors.

There was also a fire left burning unattended in WTC7 for 7 hours, in a building only designed to take 3 hours of fire.

Why are you surprised it collapsed?

Many bits of paper, plastic and personal effects survived from the plane (and survice in other crashes too). Not everything gets incinerated. What does that prove?

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 17:01

Sorry, WTC7 was 400 feet away from WTC1, not 400 yards - my mistype.

fairplay
26 November 2008 at 18:02

you really are a clown mate. they claim they didnt find the black boxes either but an intact passport???? did you watch the crash by any chance?

wish i knew who you were. ive got some tartan paint for sale and chocolate fireguards. do you still believe in father christmas too?

fairplay
26 November 2008 at 18:03

and while we are on the subject 65% of new yorkers believe there is a massive 9/11 cover up. i would say they have a right to their opinions. wouldnt you?

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 19:19

Ok, despite the fact that other items were also recovered from the plane crash, let's hypothesise that the passport was planted.

Presumably it was planted to manipulate public perception - the passport was confirmation that he (Suqami, I believe) was on board the flight.

But we already knew that the identities of those who had checked into the flight, and under what pieces of identifying documentation. We already knew Atta, Suqami etc. were the hijackers - the discovery or non-discovery of the passport has no bearing on that anyway. And it's not as if anyone was asking "where are all their passports?"

So really, what exactly was the point of planting the passport, fairplay?

a.m.r.
26 November 2008 at 19:24

fairplay ".. 65% of new yorkers believe there is a massive 9/11 cover up. i would say they have a right to their opinions. wouldnt you?"

Everyones entitled to their opinions, but not their own facts, as the saying goes.

fairplay
27 November 2008 at 08:03

ok einstein. where do YOU get YOUR facts from?

u r seriously deluded. one minute you tell us jetfuel can burn concrete and steel structures and next minute you tell us it cant burn a PAPER passport. what colour is the sky in your world or do you work for the government?

a.m.r.
27 November 2008 at 10:52

fairplay, I've given you many links showing where I'm getting my information from.

The plane disintegrated almost instantly on impact. It doesn't seem impossible to me that debris, including paper debris, could be scattered. Also, with respect to exploding fuel tanks and fireballs, I think the key word here may be 'explosive' ie. the rapid expansion of air volume which precedes any flames and would easily push paper away from the path of the flame.

re: surviving passporst, and missing blackboxes, here are two more links

http://www.911myths.com/html/passport_recovered.html

http://www.911myths.com/html/black_boxes.html

You haven't answered the question "Assuming that someone deceptively planted the passport, what was the purpose of such an act?"

It's just a question. If you can't even answer it, you're making a up a conpiracy act for which you have no evidence, and which serves no purpose that you can think of.

a.m.r.
01 December 2008 at 01:34

All your points I showed to false, ignorant or irrelevant.

You respond to my points by ad-hominem statements and vulgarity.

Do you always turn nasty when you lose the argument?

fairplay
01 December 2008 at 04:20

it is what i said it is. lose an argument? do me a favour. the case for the defense is so weak that i am glad you are defending it. the floor is yours.............

a.m.r.
01 December 2008 at 13:53

Not really fairplay - you lost the argument.

Most of the points I've made are just summaries of other's work in debunking 9/11 conspiracy theories, so it's not like I can take any credit for it.

If you are amazed by the fact that WTC7 collapsed and cannot see any possible explanation other than a controlled demolition, then I'm not sure there's much point in discussing this with you.

Here are some other buildings that were close to the WTC1 & WTC2 and also collapsed or were extensively damaged :

6 World Trade Center (destroyed by the collapse of WTC1 & 2)

5 World Trade Center (severe damage, partial collapse)

4 World Trade Center (damage beyond repair, later demolished)

Marriott World Trade Center 3 WTC (destroyed in the collapse of WTC1 & 2)

World Financial Center complex (severaly damaged, reopened after extensive repairs)

St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church (destroyed by the collapse of WTC1 & 2)

Deutsche Bank Building (damaged beyong repair, later demolished)

The Borough of Manhattan Community College's Fiterman Hall (damaged beyond repair, later demolished)

a.m.r.
01 December 2008 at 13:58

fairplay, I've responded constructively to all the points you've raised, whilst you haven't responded to any of the points that I raised except with attempted mockery.

I won't be responding to any more of your posts in this thread.

fairplay
02 December 2008 at 06:30

great. and its in writing-bonus!

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