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How safe is your job?

Iain Macwhirter

Published 27 November 2008

This has been a year of financial panic, but 2009 will be dominated by unemployment. In a flexible labour market, with few legal protections, the indebted young will be hit hardest

How safe is your job?

The poster that won the 1979 general election was a fake. The "Labour isn't working" dole queue was ac tually composed of 20 fully employed Hendon Conservatives, photo graphed by Saatchi & Saatchi. But there was nothing synthetic about the impact that the poster had on the Labour government of James Callaghan. Never again, Labour resolved, could the party afford to go to the country when the country was out of work. Yet that is what Gordon Brown risks doing, if you believe the spin about him delaying the next general election until 2010.

This was a year of financial panic as oil prices spiked, banks collapsed and stock markets tumbled. But it is likely that 2009 will be the year of the dole. Unemployment, already higher than at any time since Labour came to office in 1997, is expected to climb to almost three million by 2010, according to the Confederation of British Industry. The turnaround in the UK employment market has been astonishing. The pace of job losses, led by the shake-out in the banking sector, has astounded analysts: the Centre for Economic and Business Research (CEBR) has forecast that 300,000 private-sector jobs will have been lost in the six months to the end of this year alone. The CBI's forecast, made only a few days ago, is almost certainly an underestimate, because it is based on Britain's GDP declining by 1.7 per cent in 2009. The Bank of England is now talking about the economy shrinking by 2 per cent next year, as Britain enters the worst recession since the 1980s. Capital Economics has forecast that unemployment will peak at 3.3 million in 2010.

The situation is already worse than the formal statistics suggest. Stephen King, of HSBC, argues that the official International Labour Organisation unemployment figures exclude two million people who are economically inactive but would like a job.

What is undeniable is that British firms are taking advantage of the "flexible" labour market to fire first and think later. Unusually, the region hardest hit is likely to be the one most able to cope: the south-east. The London area alone could lose 650,000 jobs, according to the Local Government Association. This is one of the wealthiest areas on the planet thanks to the financial services sector based in the City. Redundant middle-class professionals might find life a little different on £60-a-week Jobseeker's Allowance, but most can probably look after themselves. The people who will have their lives destroyed first are the legion of temporary and casual workers, many of whom do not figure in the unemployment statistics because of their age or country of origin.

Many of the new redundancies are unavoidable, but there are signs, too, that some firms are reducing their workforce as a message to shareholders, hoping to bolster their equity prices. When BT announced 10,000 redundancies on 13 November it made no attempt to play down the human cost and, according to some analysts, even exaggerated the job losses for effect.

After three decades of losing industries, the UK desperately needs to protect the skills it has left, not allow them to dissipate in the lengthening dole queues

Firms such as Virgin Media, Rolls-Royce, Yell, Wolseley and Citigroup have all announced thousand-plus job cuts in the past few weeks alone. The flexible labour market, inspired by the Tories and realised by new Labour, has allowed contraction to be a first, rather than a last, resort. It is the quickest way for a management in trouble to show that it is doing something.

The problem is that these job losses, rather like the banks' refusal to lend to small business, are enormously destructive to the broader economy. After nearly three decades of losing productive in dustries, the UK desperately needs to protect those skills it has, not allow them to dissipate in the dole queues. But with trade unions weak, employment law liberal and the government compliant, firms are being allowed to throw out the seedcorn of the future.

Only the state would be able to counter the effects of this attrition. In the pre-Budget report, the Chancellor's measures on benefits, pensions and VAT were intended to boost pre-Christmas demand in the high streets. However, the government is severely limited in its ability directly to fill the jobs gap. Yes, the public sector is still hiring, and will have put on 50,000 jobs in the six months to the end of the year, according to the CEBR. But, with public borrowing likely to reach at least £118bn next year, there will have to be a retrenchment in the labour-intensive public sector to get the public finances into some kind of order in the medium term. Make no mistake - the price of this year's fiscal stimulus is likely to be public-sector job losses, even with the Chancellor's heroic, and unrealistic, assumptions about an economic recovery in 2010.

In this instance, the weakness of the pound is unlikely to boost employment in export industries. This is a global recession, perhaps a global depression, and Britain cannot rely on international markets to replace lost domestic demand. There is also likely to be a wave of protectionism, starting in the US, as countries seek to save their own core industries with state subsidies and other anti-competitive tools. The world market may be a tougher place in which to sell in future. Anyway, Britain has lost most of its manufacturing base - down to 14 per cent of GDP.

In recent years, most of our "exports" have been in financial services - "invisibles", the demand for which will be slight for the duration of the credit crunch.

We can be thankful at least that the right man is in the White House at the right time. Alistair Darling has moved some way towards matching Barack Obama’s plan to create 2.5 million jobs over the next two years through public work projects and alternative energy investment. Yet this will not happen quickly and will do little to alter job losses already in train. And, in America, which is 12 to 18 months further advanced into the recession than Britain, life is already desperate for people on the margin.

The US department of agriculture reported on 17 November that the number of children who went hungry in 2007 - the first year of the credit crunch - jumped by 50 per cent to almost 700,000. It said that, overall, 12.2 per cent of Americans, 36.2 million people, "do not have the money or assistance to get enough food to maintain active, healthy lives". It could happen here.

At the very least Britain faces a return to a period of sustained joblessness, and to the destructive psychology that accompanied it. There will be dole queues, of course, but the social composition of the new jobless - led by financial services, property, retail - will be very different from what we saw in the early 1980s. As a recent report from the Chartered Institute of Personnel and Development argued, those at most risk in the coming "redundancy torrent" will be managers, professionals and skilled non-manual workers.

Tens of thousands of jobs are about to eva porate from British banks. Multiply that by all the professional jobs which depended on those middle-class incomes, such as estate agents and lawyers. Certainly, the first to be hit will be those at the bottom. But they are likely to be joined by large numbers of articulate, middle-class individuals shaken out of the financial, media and peripheral service occupations - from aroma therapy to management consultancy - which have grown up during the long boom.

Middle-class workers are not ready for this and it will be a shock to their self-confidence and self-esteem – a social and cultural transformation that could have profound political implications.

In the 1980s, the middle classes were still relatively secure in their career structures in management and the professions. They had homes, occupational pensions, clear employment paths. Certainly, they were a world away from the trade unionists fighting for their jobs in the old industrial heartlands of Britain. Margaret Thatcher relied on the middle classes to support her war on the militants with their braziers - and to blame them for the recession of the 1980s. The braziers are gone and the industrial working class has largely been dismantled. So, too, have the secure middle-class career structures.

Those who will suffer are the children of the baby boomers, who graduate with high debts and higher expectations

In the 1980s, professional and other white- collar jobs were, by and large, jobs for life, with annual pay increments, annual promotion, pension rights and a predictable future. Not any longer. The modern media, for example, are a shifting sea of freelance and contract workers for subcontractors to the large institutions. Even at the BBC, where I started out, there may be a crust of well-paid performers and anonymous executives who earn more than the Prime Minister, but below that is a huge army of irregulars, often on low salaries, coming in and out of the corporation's revolving doors. The commercial sector has been relying on large numbers of underpaid or unpaid "interns" desperate for work. This is the flexible labour market at its most pernicious. Such practices are widespread throughout the British economy.

Deregulation and leveraged buyouts by private equity over the past two decades have left many firms with flattened management structures, often relying on outside consultants to get them through busy periods. Occupational pensions have become a rarity. Promotion has become intensely meritocratic. Companies increasingly "offshore" white-collar functions to countries such as India, where an educated middle class is willing to work for much lower wages. Most of the job losses at BT are among self-employed contract workers in the UK; the firm has not cut any of the jobs it has outsourced to India.

The group hit hardest is the under-35s, sons and daughters of the postwar baby boomers, who have emerged from university with high debts and even higher expectations. These are the young people who have little experience of recession and none of mass unemployment. Neither have many of their parents, who lived through the 1970s and 1980s largely untouched by unemployment or debt. If there is to be a political response to the new depression, it is likely to emerge from this group of déclassé graduates, many of whom face a future without the security they have been brought up to expect. They will not be able to afford houses or establish careers. Indeed, the under-35s have so much personal debt that their net wealth is actually negative. Three-quarters of the under-35s are in the red, according to the Skipton Building Society, owing more than £9,000 on average. They will look to the state for security, but the state will not be able to deliver.

This time there is no trade union menace to blame for economic distress

A Ministry of Defence think tank has made a remarkable forecast about political militancy. The Development, Concepts and Doctrine Centre published a report in April 2007 in which it speculated that in coming years “the world’s middle classes might unite, using access to knowledge, resources and skills to shape transnational processes in their own class interest”. “The middle classes could become a revolutionary class taking the role envisaged for the proletariat by Marx . . . the growing gap between themselves and a small number of highly visible super-rich might fuel disillusion,” the report said.

The idea of a revolution sweeping suburbia is faintly risible, though it was a subject of a recent J G Ballard novel, Kingdom Come. But the MoD may have grasped an important truth about the nature of politics in the new global economy. It is beginning to erode class differentiation and has left many middle-income earners exposed to the kind of insecurities that formerly afflicted only lower-class workers. Clearly, the economic circumstances of management consultants cannot be compared directly with those of retail workers. But when they lose their jobs, they face very similar challenges: mortgage and credit-card debt, catastrophic loss of earnings and the need for retraining.

Part of the difficulty experienced by the Conservative leader, David Cameron, in developing a coherent political response to Gordon Brown's neo-Keynesianism, is that the party of capital has lost its "class enemy": the industrial working class. There is no trade union menace to blame for economic distress and the Conservatives have had to fall back on "fiscal conservatism" - or reduced public spending. This is simply not a priority for an electorate that is looking to the state to protect it from the predations of the market. Equally, new Labour under Brown has been forced almost against its will to become more critical of the plutocracy running the banks, to accept nationalisation and greatly increased government spending. Brown's government has even had to abandon one of the founding principles of new Labour by proposing higher taxes on the rich.

The Conservatives, who have not entirely lost their Thatcherite reflexes, are looking to the middle classes to react against the new profligacy - but they will find it difficult to do so. As un employment mounts among the middle classes, especially among the under-35s, there is going to be a much stronger demand for policies which promote jobs and growth even at the cost of public borrowing. The Tories cannot afford to be on the wrong side in this battle.

As Martin Hutchinson, author of Great Conservatives, has expressed it: "A world in which few if any have security in their livelihood is not conservative, it is anarchist. It is also deeply repugnant to the average voter."

If Labour isn't working, neither are the Conservatives.

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63 comments from readers

Carl Jones
27 November 2008 at 11:35

At the moment, I beleve my employer is trying to either, force me to leave, or build a case for sacking me. I`ve been with them for over 11 years, with a faultless record.

As many of you will have proberly gathered, I`m not the shy retiring type, I know my rights and I expect to be treated accordingly and its seems I am destined to be replaced with "yes men".LOL

In fact, I`ve got such a strong case, I could quit tommorow and take them to a tribunal and very likely win. I am also a member of a large union, with free legal support. Of course, I don`t want to go down this route, its not in my nature, I prefer to hold my ground. I could list all the abusive work practices they`d like to being in, but its far too long for here. I am one of a well dug in group of older employees who just about remembers the pre Thatcher work place.

The trouble with todays generation, is that they`ll sandwich at their desks and work through the day. Employers expect flexbility, deconstrcted, this means you`ll never clock watch, dare to go home on time and work extra hours/days with no extra pay.

Before the designed financial crash, Britain was a country bordering on third world employment rights. In this respect, democracy has once again failed the public, we are the corporate pressure release valve and all we`ve really gained from flexible employment, is staggering debt.

Technically speaking, as a long seving employee, I should be safe. But I wouldn`t trust them. Employers know that only a small percentage of abused employees will go to a tribunal and see it to the end. At the end of the day, employers are willing to run the the percentage game.

Father Ted
27 November 2008 at 12:36

30 years ago I predicted world war 3 would be financial. The bomb, the gun, and the bullet are far too expensive, and always, rightly or wrongly backfire on the hands of the perpetrator. History has told us this repeatedly. As the world gradually becomes a flatter economy, those who have enjoyed a good life find their values and goods eroded by the migrant worker as there is no regulation across Europe on work, and the most popular nation suffers: UK plc. Last night, my wife told me she expects the next event to be the government curtailing permission for migrant workers within europe to find work in other countries, however, this should have been done with the fall of the USSR. Too late, as usual! The only viable route now is to look to the Philanthropic attitude of the great industrialists and financiers of the past. But who in their right mind will declare they have money now? James Bellini in his book 'Rule Britannia (1981) A progress report for Domesday 1986' explains this perfectly, but did anyone listen? No. the saddest thing I have heard is when a 20-30 year-old told me ' I never expect to be able to own a home in my own in this country in my lifetime'. We calll ourselves a civilised society, and yet we are still happy to take the shirts off each other's backs for a fast buck. Even Stalin, having lost 30,000,000 of his countrymen to the Nazi's after World War 2, declared it the right of every individual to own their own 'Datcha' a wooden home in the countryside where they could grow their own vegetables and survive. As I take the train home past Sidcup, I notice a once green field has been turned into allotments. People of this nation are fed-up of being ripped-off by supermarkets to place their meal on the table of shareholders profits. As supermarkets fight each-other over the problem their greed created, the ex-consumer has taken to strip-farming. The gravy train of greed is over. I never expected to outlive Woolworths and MFI. Dig for Victory!

Tom Knott
27 November 2008 at 15:54

If a sector is contracting, as is almost certain to be the case in Financial Services, very many of those who go out will never get back in. In my long experience, dating back to the 1930's, most of those will find themselves permanently in lower paid jobs or actitvities. This was one thing when society was relatively debt free, but today the damage may well be much more severe and long lasting and lengthen the lags in working towards any recovery.

john problem
27 November 2008 at 16:35

Don't you love that word 'flexible'? Applied to human beings? It's a cute way of saying 'you're disposable any time with no rights unless you want a hard fight, sucker'. And is one of the key reasons why so many foreign businesses wanted to establish themselves here - the other being an unusually comfortable profit-making environment. In very few civilised countries can employees be dumped with minimum notice and minimum compensation as in our treasured isle. The 'Tribunal' ploy is much to be admired - it gives the impression that employees have somewhere to go to get help when dumped. Try it some time. Hopefully you'll have some savings to feed the kids while going through the hoops. Let's not forget that the first thing that any private equity manager does when acquiring something is to fire people. The first thing a new CEO does is to fire people. Come the recession, who gets the chop? The employees, long-serving or not, it doesn't matter. The secret of business and banking success is firing people. It's the best way to please big share-holders and if you don't do it, beware. Although there is one CEO who has got it right - the man who runs Porsche. He says his job is firstly, to look after the customers, then the staff (note that hugely original thinking), then the suppliers and lastly the shareholders.

Camus
27 November 2008 at 16:58

In the middle of the 19th century, 50% of the labour force in Britain worked in agriculture. The transformation of an economy costs jobs and if you don't believe that ask an (ex) miner or shipbuilder. Carl, you are in a predicament. How long can you survive without regular income? I would not assume that you are safe - you are much more expensive than the twenty-something who will work twenty hours without moaning.

writeon
27 November 2008 at 19:59

I spent three months driving around Britain getting to know the place again a couple of years ago.

I felt like the entire country was in a dreamworld. The atmosphere in the malls was unsettling at week-ends. The rampant consumerism. People buying so much junk. Kids being socialised to become rabid shoppers. These blokes trying to give me credit cards all the time. I felt like an actor on an enormous stage, in horrid play I hated and I didn't know my lines properly. Almost everything seemed so false and incredibly superficial.

I was sure this boom was ready to collapse, because it was based on sand, the creation of collosal ammounts of debt and a very fragile labour market. What surprised me was how many young people had uncritically bought into the entire capitalist fairytale.

I think the education system, the media, and politics, have lot to answer for. It's almost a conspiracy. Pushing an illusion like a drug, opium for the people. Lines from Lennon's "Working-class Hero" kept going through my head. Socially, economically, politically and intellectually, the country seemed to have plunged through a hole in time and was back in the nineteenth century. It was weird. What had happened in the intervening years since I'd been away?

The only people I seemed to be able to communicate with were old people, tamps, addicts, whores, the poor, those who weren't invited to the gay, glitzy, party.

They still seemed undrugged, not part of the Tory Tart and her knave's dreamland, and were forced by circumstances to see clearly about them. They had faint memories of a different Britain which wasn't a giant casino run by crooks and charlatans. They didn't have the luxury of decadence or irony either.

I saw and learnt how profoundly unfair society was. How different the lives of the poor and comfortable were, like there were to parallel countries living together but rarely meeting. I leant how important it was not to be poor, whatever happens don't be poor.

Nilsey105
27 November 2008 at 22:10

I have just read this article after reading and makeing a comment on;

Young, gifted and jobless: a generation in the red

By Alyssa McDonald and Liana Wood

What we will have is again those who should be serving an apprenticeship are totally dismissed and deemed uneccessary. Those aged 16 to 24 wont get work for the next 10 years if there lucky.

Another forgotten and totally wasted generation.

When are we going to see an end to this, the most, wasteful of economic systems?

Angelus
27 November 2008 at 22:18

This is possibly the most depressing article/thread I have ever read. It is even more depressing because sadly-it's all true.

I am reaching 30 next year and the week before my 18th birthday I was offered four pre-approved credit cards. Naturally at such a young age-and about to venture on my first holiday with friends; I took the banks offers, all four of them.

Due to my own naivety and general carelessness, I ran up huge debts quite fast. I then began college where I ran up huge student loans and my life spiralled further into debt. Taking on a permanent job has been no easier. My education is within the media and I have never ever felt safe in any of my jobs. Since my graduation I have went from one short term contract to the next, having to work in call centres part time just to bolster my pitiful wage.

Looking at my situation closely I realised this was not just my own fault but the system I am currently living in and it has a lot to answer for. From a very young age I was taught to be a consumer, always buying things I didn’t need or that had any real value. We as a nation have been bought and silenced by the endless gadgets, toys and fashion that we are told we need in our lives. The hope of ever owning a house is now simply just an illusion for most of us. Most of my friends who managed to scrape together a deposit for a mortgage are now sitting in negative equity and struggling to pay their mortgage. Most of us now fear for our jobs-not just in the media but in many different industries.

The so- called- middle classes were nothing but working class people living off loans and credit cards and it’s now all coming back to bite us in the ass. I ow realise why it was called a depression. I can see no hope for the future of Britain.

Will these hard times finally unite the people and invoke change? The future is in our hands.

gnuneo
27 November 2008 at 22:54

writeon: i had the exact same experience, perhaps that's why we have agreed on so much.

i now wonder how these middle-class professionals will experience trying to live on only £60 a week. Many of those on 'flexible' agency contracts will not find such amounts much less than what they were taking home anyway, those on £30,000 plus will find it a rude shock to discover what "life loafing on the dole" really means.

what will this do to benefit levels? Few care when most long-term unemployment hits mainly the underclass, but much as the Vietnam war ended once middle class conscripts started dying, will the large scale entry of middle-earners onto benefits destroy the openly fascist attitude of the Press that "Britain would be better off with zero benefits, to force the lazy to do the jobs available"?

it is unlikely that the centre-right Brown Govt (although possibly many Labour backbenchers, Lib-Dem theorists and even possibly Tory Radicals), will take the probably inevitable step of the Citizen's Benefit*, accepting openly what has been accepted silently for some time - that full employment is impossible - and recognising that with modern productivity levels, what is more important is consumers, rather than just producers.

it now seems certain that we are heading not only into recession, but also full-blown global depression. What is notable is just how much of all this extra tax-payer monies "pumped into" the economy across the whole world, has gone straight into the multinats bank accounts. Yet it is exactly *their* stranglehold upon the national economies that has largely caused this economic collapse, the financial crisis would have been extremely unlikely to happen were it not for the type of 'globalisation' that these feudal behemoths have championed, breaking down currency movement restrictions, forcing financial, ecological, labour and credit deregulation across the world.

*Citizen's benefit is a fixed, taxable benefit paid to all.

Carl Jones
28 November 2008 at 00:13

My God, the people are actually to coming round to what I was said on here, well over a year ago. I believe I commented on one of Mr Brummer`s articles.

Sure its going to be a depression, manage on £60....just wait till hyperinflation arrives and the shelves are empty.....now where did I put my tamiflu pill?LOL Never mind, they won`t either.LOL

sebastian
28 November 2008 at 06:45

Thanks for the article and the interesting comments. We can only hope that something good will come out of working together through this mess.

'Writeon', I share your point of view and feel the whole game is the same in Australia, if not worse. Society there seems to have become a vile sort of play set.

Camus
28 November 2008 at 08:29

carl: "Socially, economically, politically and intellectually, the country seemed to have plunged through a hole in time and was back in the nineteenth century". Don't follow you. I can get the social disintegration straight - very rich and many poor, but 'economically'? However I parse that, it seems that there is no valid comparison. If you look at the state of the cities in, say 1880, the disease, overcrowding, poverty, sweat shops, poor food supplies and a government completely deaf on its left ear, the cabinet full of heredtary peers, all intermarried and a labour movement that was beaten up every time they tried a parade. Now we have - as you rightly say, stores full of trash, xtra special bargains at every corner and a people who have forgotten what they are living for (if they ever knew.) I don't have an answer - except to say that Germany seems to be getting at least some of its answers right - the social system, heavily under attack - is still providing a decent medical care and a livable pensions level, the unions fight for wage increases, the government does not jump on the bandwaggon of quick fixes and the public are aware and on the watch for to prevent the lunacies of 24/7 video supervision. Learn from Germany!

Carl Jones
28 November 2008 at 10:26

Camus; thankyou for such a considered reply.

I think we need to set things in context. You have returned to the age of coal, steam and sail. You will note, that coal did not run out and we didn`t start using other forms of energy, because someon said "coal will run out in 30 years"! The wind blows as hard to day, as its has every done...accepting NATURAL climate change.

Now ponder on the reality, that our world has been built on oil....IT DOESN`T MATTER IF PEAK OIL IS REAL OR NOT, this is the construct put before us.

We know that Biden has said Obama will face a NEW (take special note of that word) crisis in the first few months of his presidency. Biden is not refering to anything that is in the public domain, such as Iran, climate change and the economy.

There are many who say alternative solutions will be found and deployed throughout the world. But is a simple fact, nothing known in the public domain, can replace oil.

I have said in the past, that the current economic construct has been in the planning for about 15 years and really kicked off when Bush was given the presidency.

We were told that Asia and the BRIC nations were decoupled, we were told only weeks ago that Dubia was awash with money....this from the elite and their puppet messengers in the MSM. ALL LIES

Poulson and his corrupt $700 billion bailout has just been topped by another $800 billion. The total monetary growth related to the financial crash, is about $5 trillion. Interest rates are falling, and set to fall further. We are told deflation is coming, but just as the sea level drops away before a tsunami, we are going to get hyperinflation, if WW and pandemic doesn`t get us first!

Codswollop
28 November 2008 at 10:39

Protect what skills we have left!!!!

What skill are those, waiting on tables and working at Kentucky Fried Chicken? LABOUR has destroyed Britain, just admit it.

Viscount Firm
28 November 2008 at 10:43

They wait on tables at Kentucky Fried Chicken? I'd

no idea! Is it silver service?

ted harvey
28 November 2008 at 13:29

Oh what a relief to find out that I wasn't the only one... if only I had known writeon or gnuneo were in that shopping mall at the time!:

"I felt like the entire country was in a dreamworld. The atmosphere in the malls was unsettling at week-ends. The rampant consumerism. People buying so much junk. Kids being socialised to become rabid shoppers. These blokes trying to give me credit cards all the time. I felt like an actor on an enormous stage, in horrid play I hated and I didn't know my lines properly. Almost everything seemed so false and incredibly superficial."

Camus
28 November 2008 at 17:24

Carl - thanks - your comment deserves serious attention. I can understand where you are coming from. My perception is that we are too well informed (if that's the right word) about disasters, upcoming or happening and we feel a mounting sense of anger and frustration at the incompetence and ignorance of the politicians and their self-serving 'experts.' You have probably read that the experts who worked out the big bank bailout (BBB) were the bankers who put all our money on red, lost and then demand that the government pays for them to get out of jail. (Somebody wrote - putting the foxes in charge of the chicken pen). But can you remember the general mood in the UK as the Callahan days ground to a halt and when Thatcher took over? Doom and gloom followed by the worst kind of self-seeking money-grabbing capitalism - that was truly a terrible time for those of us who think that there is such things as social groups and cohesiveness between those groups. I can remember seeing hundreds of homeless sleeping in Piccadilly station, hundreds more in the doorways without grills. My point is that the scandals and shocks of the eighties and nineties have led us to the present situation and that we have to organise resistance in a coherent way.

Camus
28 November 2008 at 17:44

Quote: Bernanke in the New Yorker: “A lot can still go wrong, but at least I can see a path that will bring us out of this entire episode relatively intact,” he told a visitor to his office in August.

What is there left to say?

Nilsey105
28 November 2008 at 17:54

relativley!

isnt everything relative?

gnuneo
28 November 2008 at 20:58

"My point is that the scandals and shocks of the eighties and nineties have led us to the present situation and that we have to organise resistance in a coherent way."

resistance is useless - or worse than useless - unless it has a better alternative to offer. We need a coherent model of where we want to get to, and a well thought out plan of how to get there. We need to challenge the talking heads whenever they offer us more garbage - such as complete State control (tis the State with all the surveillance cameras, remember), or the handing over of EVERY State function to private, monopolist multinationals.

CJ can certainly tell us about the problems we face - and how created they are - but he is not very good on finding solutions.

personally, i would regard the kind of economy such as the anarcho-syndicalism of the Mondragon region in Spain as being the way forward, an economy not designed to siphon wealth upwards, nor entirely dependant upon pyramid-scheme stock markets.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporatio...

Nilsey105
28 November 2008 at 22:07

gnuneo

28 November 2008 at 20:58

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corporatio...

that page does not exist??????????

writeon
28 November 2008 at 22:14

Maybe I'm fatalistic, or is it pessimistic, perhaps it's cynicism?

I'm not sure there is a 'solution' to the current crisis we are in. I don't believe any of the methods employed by our leaders are going to work or reverse the course we are on. We've created a 'market' that whilst it's extraordinarily beneficial to some, isn't really controlled by them. It's too big, too powerful and too complex a system to control, actually it's main characteristic is how uncontrolled it is, how like a 'natual' phenomenon it is. A growing, living, self-regulating beast, that's beyond the control of any individual or group or class or country, and is 'steered' by something invisible and only partially understood. Is it the hand of man, or God, or Satan? Are we riding on the back of an angel or a devil?

Perhaps things will just have to take their course? Maybe that's 'best'? Capitalism periodically goes through these spasms, it's built into it. It's incredibly destabilizing and destructive, people's lives are harmed and destroyed, their dreams crushed, they are gutted and thrown on the dump - that's how the system works, get over it!

Should we really aim patch Capitalism up yet again? Putting it on publically funded life-support. If we keep do this, when will it ever be replaced or challenged? Surely we should let it look after itself, stand or fall on its own two feet, live up to the dogma of its own crass ideology? Then, when it's true nature is revealed, how unstable, how destructive, when it's broken and weak; then and only then do we stand a real chance of challenging it, because we don't realistically stand a chance when it's successful and strong do we?

Nilsey105
28 November 2008 at 22:53

One of the problems is that, as you allude to writeon, when its running smoothly, the vast majority don't have time to sit and consider what the alternatives can be. They are prepared to PUT UP WITH IT, in the belief all will be well this time and not seek out what can be done to make the system better.

The vast majority who comment on here and other forms of news media are searching for answers because they are people who want change from the perpetual waste of human endeavour that is inherent within the CMP.

Since the filching of the labour party by the gang of three, Blair, Brown and Mendleson, i have not participated in any form of dissent.

When clause 4 was removed i left the Labour Party. That to me was the end of my political activity's. Only recently have i once again taken to broaching my views.

That feeling from old of banging my head against the wall has returned. Yet i still know i am correct in what i say and at the same time i am prepared to listen and learn from new ideas.

Suddenly it seems as if new ideas are no longer in abundance as they once were. There is no dialectics, no thesis, antithesis to move on up to the next level.

Yes there is the usual rantings from the Trots and the distasteful clap trap from the BNP and a little from the Stalinists. But all in all there is a void of ideas as what should be done.

Nilsey105
29 November 2008 at 00:25

i am doing a little bit of research on "originate to distribute model of bank credit;

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1290312

Nilsey105
29 November 2008 at 01:12

http://beyondmoney.net/2008/09/30/how-the-international-bank...

WOW dynamite.

gnuneo
29 November 2008 at 02:05

nilsey: works for me. but try:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondrag%C3%B3n_Cooperative_Corp...

writeon: my interpretation of events is entirely different. The problems within our economic systems are not caused by 'Capitalism' - they are caused by exploitation, by non-democratic hierarchies within companies, both of which - as information theorists will tell you - create inefficiency, bad information flows creating wrong decision making, resentments and unnecessary conflict, elitism, secrecy, back-stabbing, arrogance, and usually the attitude of ass-covering, and 'shoot the messenger'. Would you agree that pretty much covers the ills in our economy?

now, you might say you define 'Capitalism' as precisely those qualities, however the great Liberal economists did not. They were arguing that the *wider* the decision making process, the more accurate the eventual decision, the less resentments, the less elitism, and the attitude of 'taking responsibility' will be more common.

consider the Liberal notion of Freedom of Speech. Is the concept of this that "Truth is elucidated by a tiny minority that has more wealth/power already", or is that "Truth is more likely discovered through free and open discussions that all can enter into"? The 'Free Market' of Ideas...

so why exactly would the Liberal economists be arguing for that in elation to economic evolution? They were not, this is a 'neo-Liberal' perversion.

in fact Capitalism, as defined by the Classical Liberals, has far more in common with Capitalist Partnerships, companies equivalent to cooperatives.

this spreads the decision-making out, it also prevents the accumulation of wealth/political power by having thousands working for one person/family enrichment, and - as should be clear - is how Capitalism and Democracy became intertwined.

Capitalism began when Slavery ended, and the Workers own their own Labour Capital. Feudal Capitalism is when they sell that to others, & Full Capitalism = Anarcho-Syndicalism.

gnuneo
29 November 2008 at 02:19

"Perhaps things will just have to take their course? Maybe that's 'best'? Capitalism periodically goes through these spasms, it's built into it. It's incredibly destabilizing and destructive, people's lives are harmed and destroyed, their dreams crushed, they are gutted and thrown on the dump - that's how the system works, get over it! "

the "spasms" are not caused by anything within Liberal Economics, they are caused by too much money being taken away as profit by 'owners', leading to a collapse in purchasing power/consumption by the workers, leading to a collapse in demand, leading to collapse of productive companies/services, leading to further collapses in purchasing power due to the new unemployment.

its really that simple. The workers cannot afford to purchase the goods and services they themselves provide, because too much is being taken away from their pay-packets by the profiteers/'owners'.

that happened in the UK many years ago, remember Thatcher starting to crow about the UK being a 'low wage country that is attracting foreign investment."? However this crisis was delayed for some time, because of the new wheeze of expending consumer credit through the roof. "Wages too low? Just Borrow!" was the basic advert.

how did the Great Depression end? When Ford amongst others started paying a decent wage, so the workers could start to purchase again. Note the boast that the car was "affordable by the the workforce"?!

an economy can afford just so much economic parasitism by its elite, beyond which it starts to bleed dry. This is not Capitalism, however, it is the continued existence of a small feudal class of 'owners'. Feudal Russia did not develop because the Czarist system prevented the development of Capitalism, Western Europe achieved Capitalism because the workers and peasants rose up and demanded rights and the spreading of wealth.

gnuneo
29 November 2008 at 02:45

you know it makes sense, its just you're so used to seeing 'Capitalism' as a vague, undefined enemy blamed for everything bad. Maybe. :)

nilsey: interesting articles, eh? But the only "socialism" aspect of the NWO that the Bankers want is 'Corporate Socialism' - the private individual can watch the social safety net just melt away, what there is of it left.

you should know what the 'Washington Consensus' is, and the policies it enforces?

you might even note those very same policies have been slowly introduced across the UK. "Socialism" is the same "vague, undefined enemy blamed for everything bad" for most Americans, that "Capitalism" is for European intellectuals. I bet you can find as few Americans who can give a sound definition of "Socialism", as you can get about "Capitalism" from Europeans.

the irony is that both terms actually define what is needed by the relative Societies. America and Europe would both benefit from worker democracy/ownership, and also socialised health care, for instance.

writeon
29 November 2008 at 10:22

gnuneo,

Thanks for your input. I don't know though. When I use the term 'Capitalism' it's really just a convinient label. I wasn't comparing contemporary Capitalism with historic Capitalism, the 'pure' with the 'adulterated.'

I'm not sure that the philosophers of Capitalism, their theories etc. really accurately described the socio-economic system, known as 'Capitalism' all that well.

This is of course a highly controversial and very complex discussion, I'm worried about getting into too much detail and historical data for a forum like this to handle.

I think there's an enormous difference between theory and practice in Capitalism or Socialism. I suppose in ideal worlds, full of ideal people, both systems would work marvelously.

I don't believe I'm blaming 'Capitalism' for all our ills. I don't even really believe we live under a system that should be called 'Capitalism' anymore. Perhaps it's really a type of perverted 'socialism'?

writeon
29 November 2008 at 10:47

I'm stepping back from this rather philosophical debate about the 'nature of capitalism' for a bit, interesting though it is.

I was wondering: I tend to wonder a lot; how long and how far can the UK government go in its efforts to support the economy? Can it afford to save all the sectors that need help? As its support is coming from massive new borrowing, where is this borrowing coming from exactly? It appears to be sourced from future tax revenues primarily. How sensible is this strategy? Won't taxes have to go up or spending come down, or both, to finance the bailout? Or are they hoping that massive future economic growth will enable them to pay back what they owe?

What happens to 'incentives' if the privated sector get's used to massive state subsidies? Don't we risk creating a system for the entire economy that resembles the state supported agricultural sector, only it would be many, many, times more expensive?

What happens if the recovery doesn't start towards the end of 2009? The Government seems to be betting that it will, but this is a very high risk strategy isn't it?

On the other hand, if they don't intervene, the entire system goes down, with no guarantee that it'll go up again, we can't actally know; we can assume, hope and look at the histories of past crises, but we cannot know for sure.

Is the UK rich enough and clever enough to save the economy?

Nilsey105
29 November 2008 at 11:50

writeon

In todays Guardian Mandleson has drawn up a list of companies he thinks are worth saving from going bust.

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 12:14

gnuneo; "solutions"....who is looking for "solutions"??

Everyone seems to be hell bent on restarting the DEBT MACHINE...get people taking out mortgages.

Western governments, especially the US and UK, have racked up HUGE state debts before this financial crash became NWO policy. Again, during the Bush and Blair years, levels of public employees has sky-rocketed and thus off setting the decline in manufacturing....the ONLY areas where manufacturing has been maintained, or seen growth, is DEFENCE!!!! LOL

We, the Western public have been sold a NWO puppy, that globalisation is good for us. The financial construct creamed off their cut buy moving prodction (JOBS) to Asia, then imported these goods to the West, our PUPPET leaders built up huge public debt to make the banksters (NWO) scam work, so the NWO are in reallity, screwing us on EVEY front you care to mention!!

HOW DOES IS FEEL, TO HAVE OUR ENTIRE SOCIETY ARRANGED/CONSTRUCTED, JUST FOR THE BENEFIT OF A VERY SMALL ELITE?

When this financial construct sarted, I said "the people should march on the City and Wall St., and BURN down their TEMPLES (strong Mosanic undertone) and off with their heads"!! Strong words and today I believe them to be right, more than ever!

So its a bit RICH, telling me that I don`t offer any solutions. Some will say its a bit too strong, but the reallity is, that we in the West will continue to decline, that we will continue to pay off these huge fraudulent bank bailouts, that we will have to pay off these huge stimulus pakages....DEBT IS NWO SLAVERY!!

And as I have said before and so has Joe Biden, that new constructs will come into play...ring in nose, that we SHEEPLE will surely follow. Mumbai is a construct!! That alledgedly, just 12 men can`t trash a city of 18 million people...that can hold out for days, that were photographed 3 days ago, were from an unkown group and that the CIA and MI6 still haven`t IDENTIFIED the people in the said pictures!lol

Continued.

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 12:44

Obama said this in one early presidential debate, "I will nuke Pakistan, if it will make Amerikans feeel safe".LOL

And please don`t try and detatch this terror construct from the financial construct. MI6 is waging a false flag war of terror on a front, from Glasgow to Mumbai....the actual NWO NATO front, all the way to Pakistan, where many off the fingers of responsibility are now pointing. Things are building nicely, for another majo war, possibly another WW!!

If the NWO were really serious about a sensible solution, a solution to their DESIGNED financial construct, then we would see a 30% drop in UK living standards, Western Europe 15% and the US would see a fall of 40%, maybe 50% and more when you accept their inferstructure is verging on thrid world levels. Society isn`t prepared for this, Society won`t accept this, or they really will burn down their temples and off with their heads.

We are in a sort a "matrix" which is falling apart, like crossing a bridge that you are franticly build....constructing, because the bridge behind you, is falling down.

This is why people should forget the political/financial constructs, because NO ONE on the inside is seriously looking for sensible solutions. You just have to look at their record.

Klinton: relaxed credit, Dotcom bubble and bust. Set the ground for Bush by repealing the Glass-Steagall Act which went through on 12th November 1999...8 days after Bush technically won the US election. BTW, the Fed printing presses were working hard in the last few Kilnton years.

Bush sees Iraq and Afghanistan in his sights. 9/11 NWO construct is the ignition event for the sham war on terror. Greenspan fails to regulate the mortgage (French meaning DEATH GRIP) business, cuts rates to 1%, Bush give the rich a huge tax break, more relaxation of credit, smoke is now pouring from the Fed printing presses and staggering US debt builds.

Continued.

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 13:19

The cost of the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan passes the $3 trillion mark...the US economy is worth about $14-15 trillion. Total US debt is now around $9 trillion. Future US public commitments, such as medicare/aid and public pension will take US debt into another galaxy. The above mentioned wars were funded by debt, this debt money has already been spent, mainly in the US. The US government has already collected taxes on this DEBT SPENDING and spent it. So just imagine the state of the US economy NOW, if this war spending hadn`t been spent????

Oh yes, the US economy is hanging on by its finger nails, but don`t worry about the million Iraqis who have been murdered.

To set this in context. In 1929, total US debt was 266% of GDP, today, its over 300%. These numbers are from Stephen Roach, chief economist for Morgan Stanley in Asia. Just to pay the interest on this debt, the US requires a net inward flow of over $3 billion every day of the week, this is over 90% of global savings. Some countries are willing, enslaved if you like. Britain, Europe and Japan fall into this bracket. Then we have the oil producing nations, they are forced to deal in petro-dollars and so they recycle this through the US economy...the rest of the world doesn`t really like this CRIMINAL construct, which is global extortion...the US walks this planet carrying a BIG baseball bat....think I`m making this up???LOL

No, I`m not, many, many bankers agree with what I have just outlined. Workers from all over the world are forced to pay PROTECTION money to the US government....er, sorry, I ment to say the BANKERS, the ELITE...the NWO.

Yes, there is a solution, people need to rip that NWO ring from their nose, they need to ween themselves off all credit, for everyone, this should be a life goal. YOU need to stop participating in this scam democracy, spoil your ballot papers is good, it sends the message that you care, but aren`t interested in their constructs.

Continued.

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 14:01

Instead of being led up and down the garden path, people need to change their priorities, Buy a shirt (products) thats more expensive, made in Britain or some othe western country, pay cash (debit card). This will mean less items being brought, less goods moved pointlessly, buy locally produced foods. People can change their disciplines from paying the mortgage (death grip), buying stuff on finance, using credit cards, unless you can clear the spend next month. Avoid all private healthcare, just avoid anything with finance. Write to your MP and councilor, demanding more public rentable housing, none of these Housing Association finance rip-offs!! Social Housing is the GREEN future of housing.

We can reduce the dominating role of the City. By doing this, it will force the political construct to find sensible, beneficial solutions, which will apply to ordinary people across the world....of course, none of this will happen, because not a day goes by without more political lies being messaged to us by a totally complicit MSM.

So its plan B, march on the City and Wall St., brun down their TEMPLES and off with their heads. :) It is the only way to save humanity and the planet from these NWO nutters.LOL

Nilsey105
29 November 2008 at 14:41

Are you baseing your cash model on the works of ;

E.C. Riegel ?

subho
29 November 2008 at 16:12

Thumb rule was-- do your job first, then earn . But

market teaches--spend first, then do your job and

deposit your earning to your lender. This kind of

job cannot demand any protection or sustainable

flexibility. Unemployment is meaningless to this

vulnerable financial package which is mortgaged

to virtual economy. Earn trust and then demand

financial security.

R Subhranshu

writeon
29 November 2008 at 17:19

Gentlemen,

Talkin' 'bout a Revolution, it wasn't. But I've just come in from the garden after a final mow of the lawn, and a couple of glasses of mulled wine with one of my neighbours.

He's usually not at home. He's usually on his 300,000 ton bulk carrier somewhere between China and California. Not so this year. He's on a 'voluntary' Christmas break! Six weeks at half pay!

We talked a bit about shipping. Rather interesting and indicative of who may be losing their jobs. This time last year, according to something called the Baltic Dry Index, his ship cost $250,000 a day to hire. Today the price has collapsed, like the worldwide trade in raw materials and goods. He said his ship, according to the Baltic, now only costs $5,000 a day to charter! Now that is an incredible drop in price. And he said it was a good price. Comparable ships are for hire for considerably less. He'd even heard of one hired out for as little as $1000 dollars a day!

Coupled to this is the virtually drying up of Letters of Credit between banks, and not just for shipping, which one needs before one can sail.

So ships are being laid up, scrapped and orders for new ones have virtually disappeared.

What's happening? The world's financial system is collapsing. That is what's happening. The banks and insurance companies are insolvent and frightened of lending to anyone, because no one is safe anymore or trusted. The banks are hanging on to the cash they've been given by the state and are refusing to lend in the current dire financial and economic climate. Of course this makes everything much worse, a vicious circle, an ever tightening noose.

The global derivitives market is supposed to be 'valued' in excess of $500 trillion, that's an awfully large number. If 'only' 5% or 10% vanishes, that still destroys the world's financial system. That's an indication of what we are up against and how dangerous the crisis really is, for all of us.

Nilsey105
29 November 2008 at 18:26

just to add a little bit of wieght to your peice writeon;

"in Saturday’s (Oct. 25) New York Times, Times economic columnist, Joe Nocera, reveals what he calls “the dirty little secret of the banking industry”–namely, that “it has no intention of using the [government bailout] money to make new loans.”

If that applies in the states i would also assume it is following the same route in the UK. And perhaps world wide.

There has been a consolidation of some of the larger banks positions via takeing over of smaller rival banks. Llloyds TSB taking over HBOS, Bank of America takeing over Merrill Lynch, JP Morgan devouring Bear Stearns and Washington Mutual, then Citi Bank was far too big for another bank to consume so the US government gave it more money to keep it afloat.

This is not the end there are more to come there heads peeping up over the horizon as we speak.

An article in, "Beyond Money" ,Christopher M. Quigley, B.Sc., M.M.I.I., M.A. clearly shows how the banking crisis has its roots in the Basle Accord of 1998.

“In 1998 the Basle Accord created the opportunity for regulatory arbitrage whereby banks could shift loans off their balance sheets. A new capital discipline that was designed to “improve” risk management led to a PARALLEL BANKING SYSTEM whose lack of transparency explains how the market started to seize up.

The “originate-to-distribute” model REDUCED THE INCENTIVE for banks to monitor the CREDIT QUALITY of the loans they pumped into collateralized-

loan-obligations and other structured vehicles, the rules failed to highlight contingent credit risk……With Basle II, the question is just how the markets will evolve over the next 20 years…. as the new accord will require banks to hold LESS CAPITAL”.

known as the originate to distribute model

Now this is extremely powerful evidence and should be taken very seriously as it also dispells the myth of a conspiracy theory. It is a conspiracy as CJ would say.

Beyond Money.htm

Nilsey105
29 November 2008 at 18:32

The tragedy here is that the tax payer has , again , been taken hook line and sinker and stripped of their possessions to save the perpetrators. Its not over yet we are going to be asked for me. Just as we this week have had to hand over more to RBS because noone wanted the latest share floatation. Did anyone get asked if it was in order for the governmant to spend more of our money? Or is it now just taken with a nod and a wink. Precident has been set its now in the anuls of custom and practice and as such has become common law.

Camus
29 November 2008 at 18:37

Carl, I'm back again.

HOW DOES IS FEEL, TO HAVE OUR ENTIRE SOCIETY ARRANGED/CONSTRUCTED, JUST FOR THE BENEFIT OF A VERY SMALL ELITE?

When was it ever different?

Roland Baker
29 November 2008 at 18:43

Toolbox or Foolbox? CJTROLL extraordinaire. NS postings are not what they were.

NTHL (nonetheless) we are in an employment mess. Those who built their careers on buying and selling the country's houses were acting in accordance with public policy. Where is our recognition of their needs?

When we say "flexible labour markets" do we mean "kids up chimneys" per the standards of labour law espoused by Derek Simpson and Bob Crowe - two of the UK's most odious fat cats?

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 21:41

Camus; good point and I know it, but todays construct is an excellent opportunity to poke fun and remind the sheeple just where they are at. :)

Oh, I `m disapointed in you, I`d expect better.

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 22:08

Roland Rat Baker....."toolbox or factbox"......please don`t keep me from stopping you FACTUALLY debunk anything that I`ve said above...if you can. LOL

"CJTROLL" and you suggesting that I have lowered the standard of NS comments (postings?) all on my own?LOL

I don`t write comments just to get a reaction...you need to see a reaction. I`m really sorry Roland Rat, but I think there are plenty of readers, but there are very few people who are willing to expose themselves on here, lest they expose themselves to NWO surveilance...we now know for sure that we live in a POLICE STATE.LOL

BTW, that last statement was my best effort at becoming a TROLL, but you already knew that, so the NS won`t cover it.LOL

Carl Jones
29 November 2008 at 23:24

Nilsey105, I posted a cooment weeks ago, about a conference call in NY. The bailout money is going to be used to aquire bust banks....1000`s of bust US banks.

Nilsey105
30 November 2008 at 00:36

Carl Jones

Yes i was reading about that in one of the new york papers. Most are only single branch efforts like in the cowboy movies. Nowt spectacular.

Its the big ones i am talking about.

Nilsey105
30 November 2008 at 00:38

If the UK government lifts the "short selling" ban it has imposed watch barcleys take a fall.LOL.

Camus
30 November 2008 at 10:00

writeon: Paul Krugman refers to this Baltic Dry Index in an article in the New York Review of Books. Sounds as if he might know what he's talking about but he doesn't go to the logical conclusion: if you give the fox the run of the chicken pen you get a lot if feathers.

Camus
30 November 2008 at 10:02

Sorry forgot the link:

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22151

writeon
30 November 2008 at 10:17

Having skimmed through most of the Sunday newpapers what strikes me is how little real, quality analysis there is of the current crisis, considering how important it is for all os us. And what coverage there is, isn't particularly good, in my opinion.

But this is par for the course. Most of the media is mostly rubbish, with a few honourable exceptions. As in relation to Iraq, Afghnistan, the Middle East, American politics, the environment, the economy... One has to wade through 95% dross before one finds the 5% that's worth reading, that's informative, that contains analysis, that aims to tell the 'truth.' Why is this?

I think it's got something to do with the structure of news in the UK. One is allowed to criticize aspects, details, aborations, rotten apples in the barrel ect. But one doesn't get far as journalist if one starts to critize the 'barrel' itself. Then one becomes a non 'team player' 'off beat' and 'radioactive'.

People think that readers pay for newspapers. This isn't so. Advertizers pay for newspapers. The 'liberal' Guardian receives 75% of its revenues from advertizing space. In reality the newspapers effectively 'sell' readers to advertizers, or perhaps it's worse. The advertizers, the corporations, really 'sell' the newpapers to the readers. It's the opposite of what the system appears to be. Therefore, the press isn't going to bite the 'invisible hand' that feeds it and controls it. And of course newpapers are businesses too, often owned by the same people who produce the products that fill the papers with advertizing. It's an incestuous circle.

Carl Jones
30 November 2008 at 10:22

Nilsey105

The big banks will use the bailout money to aquire 1000`s of small bust US banks....so I am talking about the BIG BANKS. This is an elite asset grap using public debt. They are aquiring these assets, way below their real (whatever this is) value.

Carl Jones
30 November 2008 at 10:25

writeon, now get you gums around the BBC...oh, and just watchout for the CENSOR! LOL

writeon
30 November 2008 at 10:37

The reason I was thinking about all this, was Iceland.

How little there is about developments in Iceland, considering how important they are, and how illustrative of where we all may be heading economically and socially.

Perhaps Iceland is the canary in the coalmine? Could the UK or even the US follow Iceland down the economic toilet? Obviously a close examination of the way the Icelandic economy has been run into the ground, leads one to the conclusion that this was Capitalism gone mad. A tiny group of people enriching themselves at the expense of everyone else and leading to a financial and economic collapse. Not really all that different from the UK or the USA, only on a far smaller scale. However, the Icelandic crash shows us what is probably waiting the rest of us. Iceland is like a lab experiment which we could and should learn from, but are we?

The disaster is Iceland is presented in the media as an aboration, not a vision of the future. Certainly what's happening in Iceland is extreme, but is it really unique? I don't think so. We could all learn a lot from Iceland, so why don't we? Because the ruling elite don't want us to learn, or question, or think, or understand. Heaven forbid that. That's partially why the education system is so bad. Most of us aren't being educated, we're being trained to eat and obey.

Our role is to work, consume and keep our mouths shut abot things we don't understand, like running the world, that is the elites job after all! They think of us almost like a herd of cattle, with the intelligence and attributes of cattle. Ours not to reason why, ours but to consume or die!

writeon
30 November 2008 at 11:01

Carl,

I've actually got a full set of my own, handsome and expensively maintained, teeth which are even more impressive than John Pilger's! My dentist is a lady from Palestine, what a laugh we have, such banter, discussing the latest 'peace' proposals, LOL. Now you've got me at it!

On BBC Five Live, they have a programme early in the moring called Wake Up to Money. It's awful. Really dreadful. They have a rotating circus of people from the City with impressive titles and even more impresive names, like, Bertram Bickershaw-Snail-Paced-Brain-Dead. For years these people have been systematically getting things wrong, in their market analysis, and yet they return to the programme over and over again.

There is an incredible bias and slant towards optimism and good cheer, even though recently ugly reality insists on breaking into their jolly world. One isn't supposed to be 'gloomy' or 'doomy' or 'sceptical' or 'critical' or 'pessimistic'. Everything is examined within a humerous framework, with lots of jokes and banter. Whilst this is an extreme case, the rest of the BBC's coverage isn't fundamentally different. The basic frame, bias and slant is pretty much the same, the format differs, but the content's the same.

Even now, when the vast majority of establishment economists, journalists and pundits, have been seen to be so wrong and credulous, optimists on ecstacy; it's striking how few 'dissidents' are allowed any airtime, and if they occassionally appear they are carefully controlled and time is always, alas, unfortunately, just running out!

The BBC is perhaps the world's 'best' and most 'sophisticated' propaganda ministry, entertaining the masses whilst carefully framing the debate, keeping people not too ignorant and not too informed. Morons seldom make good house slaves!

Was that the kind of thing you meant, Carl?

Carl Jones
30 November 2008 at 11:28

writeon, article in the Times " Britain is in no position to laugh at Iceland`s problems" by Patrick Hosking. I did mention in a previous cooment, about the serious riots in Raykjavik. Hosking goes on to mention a term that I had used a year ago, "dark age" and social unrest....

....I bet the government are preparing the police right now....with their HOT order for 10,000 taser guns...well done Jacqui Smith....some leading officers have condemned the move, but the government knows how NASTY this is going to get. I could outline a senario, but I`d be CENSORED.lol

I would liken it to post Cold War Russia, but there is a big difference, we in the West are trained consumers, we demand, we get and gernerations have no idea of how to cope, so the social damage, devorce, suicide, lost jobs and homes.

I commented to an Alex Brummer article 14 months ago and I told him that he should tell the truth about what was coming. Its a pitty that Brummer doesn`t get more comments. He writes for The Daily Mail, a rightwing rag, which over the years, has done nothing but encourage Middle England to embed themselves in all sorts of financial chicanery....peddling the CITIES wares. I don`t like the Mail`s culture and this is why I have taken the time to reply to his NS articles....he is afterall a NWO MSM messenger.

Carl Jones
30 November 2008 at 11:55

writeon, this is your major flaw and I don`t want you to take this the wrong way. you write very well, but you remain distant, a bit like Michael Moiore, tears into Bush, but stops just short of damaging Bush`s core support.

I think the BBC is an extremely sinister organisation, but find great fun when the likes of Mark Urban reads off their carefully crafted MI6/MI5 script. Its even funnier on BBC Radio 5 Live, where it is clear that someone is scribbling guidence notes.LOL

Nilsey105
30 November 2008 at 13:23

writeon;

"it's striking how few 'dissidents' are allowed any airtime"

Just who do you class as a dissident? Will Hutton,that doyen of the petty bourgeois economic commentatotors, is classed as a dissident. ffs.

Nilsey105
30 November 2008 at 13:33

The news is totally devoid of anything new on the economic crisis other than the chinese have about 180 vacancies in the financial servides sector. The pay is not very good however.

Yesterday i was chatting to an old friend who works as a rep for an engineering organisation. His business has dropped by a third this year. But he believes his customers are just useing the situation to have a good shake out of dead wood. He has come to this conclusion after talking to CEOs etc of the companies he deals with.

This to me is bosses being opportunist and short sighted. But thats the way it always is.

writeon
30 November 2008 at 16:32

Carl,

I am distant. In more ways than one. It's a flaw I'm aware of. Somehting I've worked at. A luxury in a way. A kind of curse too. In inside and I'm outside at the same time. I was expected to embrace the world, grab it, form it; only I suppose I chickened out and retreated from it. Into my study, my books and my writing. It's how I make a living, or did. Now I'm having difficulty, as the real world seems more grotesque than what I can conjure forth on the page.

Nilsey105
30 November 2008 at 17:10

interesting, piece by the doyen of economic commentators, in the Observer.

Carl Jones
01 December 2008 at 00:13

writeon, you are giving to much away, you don`t really want to be unmasked, do you? :)

writeon
01 December 2008 at 16:37

Carl,

You're right of course. I am. It's another flaw. I pulling back now. The man in the ironic mask once more.

james
04 December 2008 at 09:17

I'm 54 now, and I remember the 79/88 employment problems. I was lucky in the fact I only had a small mortgage.

The truth about the stricter regulations for the unemployed are that the well paid jobs will not come back, and most will have to accept Temp Lower paid positions.

The joke about making the sick and disabled look for work when there will be 2 million able persons has not dawned on the DWP/JP/GB. Oh it has it's cheaper than IB and we can apply sanctions? to no jobs..

It's a cynical save money policy, not a help for the poor and disavantaged.

JP who has never had a proper job, flown into his seat by TB, and given an assisted place only repeats what other people say has no idea.. He know it his only chance to do anything.

You cant blame him he's being put up to it by GB.

Shame on all Nu-Labour neo-cons!!!

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