A mind of one's own

The metaphysical limitations of neuroscience.

Soul Dust: the Magic of Consciousness
Nicholas Humphrey
Quercus, 288pp, £25

Self Comes to Mind: Constructing the Conscious Brain
Antonio Damasio
William Heinemann, 384pp, £25

The republic of letters is in thrall to an unprecedented scientism. The word is out that human consciousness - from the most elementary tingle of sensation to the most sophisticated sense of self - is identical with neural activity in the human brain and that this extraordinary metaphysical discovery is underpinned by the latest findings in neuroscience. Given that the brain is an evolved organ, and, as the evolutionary biologist Theodosius Dobzhansky said, nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution, the neural explanation of human consciousness demands a Darwinian interpretation of our behaviour. The differences between human life in the library or the operating theatre and animal life in the jungle or the savannah are more apparent than real: at the most, matters of degree rather than kind.

These beliefs are based on elementary errors. Just because neural activity is a necessary condition of consciousness, it does not follow that it is a sufficient condition of consciousness, still less that it is identical with it. And Darwinising human life confuses the organism Homo sapiens with the human person, biological roots with cultural leaves. Nevertheless, the coupling of neuromania and Darwinitis has given birth to emerging disciplines based on neuro-evolutionary approaches to human psychology, economics, social science, literary criticism, aesthetics, theology and the law.

These pseudo-disciplines are flourishing in academe and are covered extensively in the popular press, in articles usually accompanied by a brain scan (described by the writer Matt Crawford as a "fast-acting solvent of critical faculties"). Only last month, David Brooks asserted in the New Yorker that "brain science helps fill the hole left by the atrophy of theology and philosophy".

There are more cautious writers, but even for them the attraction of biologism seems irre­sistible. V S Ramachandran asserts correctly, in his new book, The Tell-Tale Brain: Unlocking the Mystery of Human Nature, that humanity "transcends apehood to the same degree by which life transcends mundane chemistry and physics". Even so, he is prepared to claim that we enjoy Picasso's paintings for the same reason that gull chicks prefer fake maternal beaks with an excess of markings to the real thing: they are "superstimuli". Both books under review acknowledge the uniqueness of human beings but relapse repeatedly into accounts of the mind, self and consciousness that appeal to a mixture of neuroscience and evolutionary theory. Despite the ingenuity and erudition of the authors, they serve only to illustrate the shortcomings of neuroscientific attempts to capture human consciousness and human nature.

The theoretical psychologist Nicholas Hum­phrey's Soul Dust: the Magic of Consciousness is extremely ambitious. He claims to have solved "the hard problem" of consciousness: how it is that a piece of matter such as a human organism (or its brain) can have conscious experiences, items that do not seem of a nature that can be conjured out of matter alone. His "explanation" is confused and confusing, not the least for his conclusion that consciousness is "a magical mystery show that you lay on for yourself", a "self-created entertainment for the mind", staged by one part of the brain to influence another part of the brain. He concedes that he does "not expect everyone to be convinced it is a good idea just yet". You bet. "Laying on a show", rather than offering an explanation, is precisely the kind of thing that has to be explained; indeed, it seems a somewhat late, higher-level or sophisticated mode of consciousness that presupposes, rather than helps us to understand, more basic modes of awareness such as sensation.

The idea of consciousness as a "show" is ultimately derived from the bankrupt representational theory of the mind - a notion that things are present to us by virtue of being "represented" or "modelled" in the brain. You cannot get to representation, however, without prior (conscious, first-order) presentation, so the latter cannot explain the former. Neuroscientists of consciousness try to elude this obvious objection by asserting that representations are not (necessarily) conscious. In fact, all sorts of aspects of consciousness are not conscious after all. According to Humphrey, "before consciousness ever arose, animals were engaged in some kind of inner monitoring of their own responses to sensory stimulation". What is "inner" about unconscious processes, material events in the material brain? And how can they amount to monitoring? These questions are not silenced by the author's reassurance that consciousness is "the product of some kind of illusion chamber, a charade". Nor does Humphrey tell us how he awoke from his consciousness to discover that it is an illusion.

He elaborates his theory of mind with the assistance of opaque concepts such as "sentition" and "ipsundrum". Sentition is "a privatised expressive activity", whereby the sensation of the redness of a tomato, for example, means nothing other than for you to observe your own active "redding". Make of that what you will. As for the ipsundrum, this is the seed of the self, analogous to illusory or impossible objects such as the Penrose triangle, which somehow generates the illusion of a world out there corresponding to a me "in here", though it still has to be "'seen' by an internal observer". It is, we are told, a "mathematical object", "a complex pattern of dynamic activity in neural circuits". This is hardly the kind of thing on which you could hang your hat, much less your biography.

Consciousness is "the set of brain events that occur when the subject observes, from a certain privileged position, his own ipsundrum which is the integral of the activity in a special kind of feedback loop". Observes? Who or what observes? Privileged position? Privileged by virtue of what? How can there be privileged positions in the material world of which the brain is a part? Humphrey describes these ideas as "nice". I beg to differ. I looked in vain for evidence to support them and was not surprised to find none.

Despite my 30 years in clinical neuroscience, I found Antonio Damasio's long and painstaking exposition of his ideas about mind, self and consciousness extremely hard going, though the dust jacket of Self Comes to Mind: Constructing the Conscious Brain carries an impressive cast of lay encomiasts, including Peter Brook, Yo-Yo Ma and V S Naipaul. Damasio's emphasis on the importance of the emotions and the body outside of the brain, an approach that distances him from those for whom the brain-mind is a computer, and consciousness the input-output relations of its software, is something for which one should be grateful, but beyond this there is little in which to rejoice. If there were explanations of how the "self comes to mind" or "constructing the conscious brain" in his book, I missed them. The story he tells seems to be a description of what the brain (or brain-plus-body) must achieve to be the basis of consciousness, rather than how it might achieve this.

Damasio makes life difficult for himself by beginning from some rather surprising assumptions. Mind, he says, is largely unconscious. Even insects have minds, apparently, which makes one question his criteria for mindfulness. At any rate, it is obvious that something else is needed to make minds conscious in the interesting way that your mind, gentle reader, is conscious. We are asked to accept another questionable assumption: that it is selves, with their first-person perspective, that are the magic ingredients. Isn't this topsy-turvy? Surely consciousness is the precondition of the self, rather than the other way round.

Granted, Damasio's selves are rather more substantial than Humphrey's ipsundrum, and they come in different classes - from the lowly protoself, with its primordial feelings, to the action-driven core self and, finally, the auto­biographical self that incorporates spiritual and social dimensions - which, by the way, he also accords to wolves (though we are awaiting the first memoir). But what he has to say about these working class, middle-class and upper-class selves does not explain how they bring consciousness to the mind. His account of how the selves are built up from the "brain's hierarchical nested componentiality" equally does nothing to explain how they might make a piece of matter such as an organism or its brain aware that it exists, and aware, too, of its material surroundings as a world in which it acts out its destiny. Why should the wiring together of bits of the brain - or bits of the brain and bits of the body - turn bodily events into things that are felt, and felt to be one's own, or make brain responses to what is happening in the body amount to an awareness of what is happening in the body? After all, as he points out, the great bulk of so-called brain maps are not associated with any kind of consciousness.

Damasio's uncertainty about the neural basis of consciousness betrays him in many ways. He vacillates between ascribing to certain parts of the brain main roles in consciousness and then arguing that it arises out of the brain as a whole. Equally puzzling is his disregard for his own distinction between the unconscious mind and the conscious self. He tells us that there are certain areas of the brain - the cerebral cortex and the brain stem - that are critically important to mind-making (but fails to tell us how they do it). This makes it difficult to understand how insects can be mindful, given that they lack such structures or anything comparable to them. I now suspect he means "mind" in the conventional sense of something that is conscious.

At times, the illusion of explanation becomes quite strong. When, like Humphrey, Damasio ascribes a crucial role in the generation of selfhood to "feedback loops" in the brain, this does convey the sense of consciousness being turned back on itself until it becomes self-conscious or self-like. Yet there is no reason why feedback loops should do this. They are evident throughout the biosphere, even at the level of single cells - and they are present in the meanest pocket calculator. Such loops could deliver a self only if consciousness had already been achieved in the loops that are feeding back on themselves.

The illusion of explanation is also sustained by use of language that straddles the barrier between brain and consciousness. One of Damasio's favourite words is "image", which gets 34 entries in the book's index. Images are the basis of first-person being and hence, according to him, consciousness. Yet at the same time they are for the most part not experienced at all, and unconscious minds, such as those of insects, are seething with them. I suspect he is involuntarily slithering between two uses of the word image: to mean an unconscious material replica, such as a reflection in a mirror, and to denote an element of consciousness, as when I am aware of a mirror image or call something to mind.

Neither Humphrey nor Damasio deals with the hard problem of consciousness - explaining how certain material entities such as ourselves feel what is happening within, to and around us. Even so, they are confident that consciousness must be biological and, therefore, must have arisen because it conferred selective advantage. Given that everything of biological use which is achieved through consciousness could be achieved without it (though once you are dependent on consciousness it's a good idea to stay that way!), it is difficult to put one's finger on what this advantage could be.Humphrey devotes several chapters to discussing the survival value of being aware of the world with which we interact. He concludes that "the simple pleasure of pure being" is enough to drive us to work harder to live, out of a "raw fear of oblivion", and this is how consciousness earns its (metabolically expensive) keep. The idea that life is such fun for conscious creatures, they do not want to let it go, is open to the simple objection that the sum total of experience may not be very pleasant. Thomas Hardy's view that "A time there was . . . Before the birth of consciousness,/When all went well" is not shared by Humphrey.

At a certain level of self-consciousness, one becomes aware of one's mortality. Surely it must be demotivating to realise that, whatever you do, you will be obliterated. No, Humphrey says. We have various strategies for "cheating death": discounting the future in favour of the present; identifying with cultural entities that will survive our death; even denying the finality of bodily death. His paean to the joy of life, which draws on poets, artists and philosophers, is a digression from the central promise of the book - to explain how "brain activity under its neuroscientific explanation amounts to mental activity under its experiential description".

Early in Self Comes to Mind, Damasio asks: "Is it reasonable to devote a book to the question of how brains make conscious minds?" Apparently it is, because:

Understanding the circumstances in which conscious minds emerged in the history of life, and specifically how they developed in human history, allows us to judge perhaps more wisely than before the quality of the knowledge and advice those conscious minds provide.

This is modest compared to the usual hyping of neuroscience. The head of the RSA, Matthew Taylor, has urged that we look to neuroscience to guide social policy and move on from the old ideologies of right and left to the right and the left hemispheres of the brain. The evolutionary biologist David Sloan Wilson has argued that we should "connect the world of evolutionary science with that of public policy formation". Professors Semir Zeki and Oliver Goodenough anticipate a "millennial future, perhaps only decades away" when "a good knowledge of the brain's system of justice and of how the brain reacts to conflicts may provide critical tools in resolving international political and economic conflicts". Untidy decision-making processes in the law courts will be replaced by a "biological justice" that can link actions with the neural activity that drove them as well as the biological bases of that activity.

The conceptual confusions notwithstanding, these two books have greater merits than many contenders in an overcrowded field, though they fail to give a coherent neurological account of even the most basic elements of consciousness. Yet it is premature to appeal to neuroscience and evolutionary theory to advance our understanding of human life or drive social policy. And, pace David Brooks, "the atrophy of philosophy" is something that should concern us, rather than make us celebrate.

Raymond Tallis is the author of "Aping Mankind: Neuromania, Darwinitis and the Misrepresentation of Humanity", which will be published by Acumen this summer.

85 comments

Steelheron's picture

Can't seem to post more than a couple of lines at a time. Seems you have to have some bizarre theory involving Cantor and Wittgenstein in order post properly on this thread. So: I give up. I would refer anyone interested to the comments of prettyprettygood attached to the review at www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/12/self-comes-mind-damasio-review

Camden Crow's picture

Hey everyone got quiet out there! I thought some of you out there had all day …

I am a physician. So is Dr Tellis. The study of medicine is an amazing thing, as is the practice of medicine. We are trained or shall I say we had been trained that medicine is both an art AND a science. And I think what Dr Tellis is upset at, as I am, and as Dr Maurice Drury was, is that our field is being over-run with this idea of ‘scientism’. With the idea of scientific evolution and natural selection as the only true basis of existence, you can throw away the sentimentality of any artistic feature in the practice of medicine, and still have an ethical field. This is especially a very serious error in the practices that involve the brain and its disorders.

And this scientism has gone into almost every area of the Arts. Here is what Dr Tellis says above and it needs to be repeated: “… the coupling of neuromania and Darwinitis has given birth to emerging disciplines based on neuro-evolutionary approaches to human psychology, economics, social science, literary criticism, aesthetics, theology and the law.” And I think Dr Tellis shows his amazing diagnostic skills by calling this whole approach a kind of ‘mania’.
If we practice medicine with this idea that ‘the mind is only within the brain’ we will begin again to do unethical things, such as deciding whose life is more valuable than someone else’s. And who will do the ‘deciding’? What I am fearful of and I think Dr Tellis is fearful of is that the decisions on whose life is more important than another’s will be done by those members of our society he describes above- those in psychology, economics, social science, literary criticism, aesthetics, theology and the law- and I will add the media and now social networking. And they have no idea what they are talking about, in my humble opinion. For they all have been sucked into believing that life is only what your brain is. It is why we make that error I see all the time.
It is when we give up on people because we rely on some intellectual measurement tool or scale via an MRI or a mini-mental status test or maybe just by going by such a number as one’s age. And this will be the end of the practice of ethical medicine. The Hippocratic Oath tells us we are to take care of a person and not just break them into their various disorders and then judge them to be of no value to society. For that is going to be the logical conclusion of this neuromania. And this will be the end of the kind of medicine I was drawn towards in my youth.
Dr Tellis has left the field of medicine. I am part of the next wave that will be leaving sometime soon. I feel great sadness at what is occurring. I recall my Chairman of Neurology and his love for non-manic logic. And I see what is happening in my field now in the area of consciousness … and all I see is delusion and mania... I see absolutely no logic whatsoever. That anyone can say that ‘consciousness comes somehow from DNA and neurotransmitters’, and then ‘only from the brain’s special DNA and neurotransmitters’ is simply an absurd and illogical position. DNA is in every cell. And neurotransmitters are intertwined with every part of our body, not just our brain. If these two things are what consciousness comes from, then not only does the brain have a ‘consciousness’ so does your rectum.
Neuronal cells have one and only one significant difference from other cells. They can conduct a signal. And it is always a series of discrete signals with absolutely no notion of continuity. And the signals from the visual and auditory senses never come from within these specialized cells. The only sensory system that appears to be internal is the tactile sensory system. The sense of body position does seem to give us all the comfort that thinking our own skin is truly proof that we are real live human beings that have real mass and real matter. This is what GE Moore relied upon in his treatise on certainty.
I did not try to show off my mathematical skills by giving you that small proof on why I have gone back to see if numbers can truly be both rational and irrational. I have no greater skill I math than anyone else out there. All I have done is to not give up logic. It is the idea of irrational number or better said, uncountable continuity, which lets us feel so comfortable within our skin. We trust that what we sense is truly continuous.
What I am trying to tell you all is we should have no logical basis for that comfort, and most of you out there suffer from this imaginary idea. When you hold out your hand and see it and feel it, you have no idea that what you are sensing as a continuous structure is nothing more than two discrete senses and that is two absolutely discontinuous senses at work and yes they may have some kind of communication at the third and second order neurons but never do they communicate once they go to the third. You may say “well maybe consciousness occurs prior to the third." There is a thing called cortical blindness that robs that delusion from us. Conscious vision only occurs after the third neuron sends the final wave of data.
Now what about the sense of particle and position along with sight? The particle that Neils Bohr found as giving of quantum signal back at the turn of the 20th Century can also be found within those elements that make up your hand and arm. That arm may feel solid and look solid but underneath this perception is the E/M spectrum at work. The sight of that hand and arm is what Einstein found as a system of transport of visual signals via quantum wave. Your mind is just getting signals sent to it and the signal that is finally within your mind has been re-created three times! And logically it means your mind must be outside this discontinuous system of elements and light, just as I type this message from outside this computer. And you will read it from outside of it too! And just as I speak on a phone and what I say gets re-created within a discontinuous wave system of transport, and finally gets heard by someone else, again outside the system of transport! The same thing is true with the brain. It is just a collection of amazing elements that conduct signal ,to and from, from hither to thither……from whence none of us have a clue…
My interest in disproving the existence of irrational numbers is to prove to everyone that the mind is never within the brain. It is not within any structure made up of elements (body, brain, etc) that only gives discrete signal to the mind. What Neils Bohr did and what Max Planck did and what Einstein did, was not discover some complicated quantum activity that arises from solid, continuous particulate matter. No all they did was prove that irrational numbers do not exist! They confirmed what Socrates taught us about 2400 or so years ago in Phaedo.
I wish I could say that I have come up with something new and revolutionary. I just believe in the same logic that Socrates believed in. But no one really cares to hear about this. You all seem to rather prefer to just think you live only within an amazing transport system of discrete time and discrete signal. And that you are all part of some evolutionary process to some place I have no concept of…. And none of you do either!
And yes I do believe in God. I do not believe though in superstition. I believe God wants us to use reason as He created it. And this takes us back to Dr Tellis’ point. In the end of all science lies amazing art! It is only an Artist who could create such a system. Why does this scare everyone so much? Is it then we have to listen to what that Artist asks of us?
Free will is the darnedest thing!!

Steelheron's picture

Weirdly, that Guardian thread is still open, so we could all just continue over there - a PROPER discussion forum!

Vitalstatiistix's picture

@blindboy: `Read before you type/talk' is what I have learned from bitter personal experience. So here goes and no offence meant, Mate!
: Born in Liverpool in 1946, Raymond Tallis studied medicine at Oxford and St Thomas's, London. From 1987 until early retirement in 2006, he was professor of geriatric medicine at Manchester University and NHS consultant in the care of the elderly in Salford. His writing includes two major textbooks, Clinical Neurology of Old Age and Geriatric Medicine and Gerontology. He has also published poetry, fiction, and books on philosophy and criticism, including Not Saussure, I Am, The Knowing Animal and the new The Kingdom of Infinite Space (Atlantic). Named by Prospect as one Britain's top 100 public intellectuals, awarded doctorates from Hull and Manchester, a Fellow of the Academy of Medical Sciences, he lives in Stockport.

blindboy's picture

Me sarcastic? As opposed to Kevin's original comment of such profound depth! Reality check Aldebaran

Steelheron's picture

@ blindboy

I've posted a fuller response to you than this website seemed capable of digesting here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2011/feb/12/self-comes-mind-damasio-revi...

(right at the bottom).

See you over there... ?

Camden Crow's picture

Too many of you are getting bogged down in words such as metaphysics/neuronal firings/ neural activity etc. The whole issue is one of understanding logic ... mathematical logic.

The paper that got me to really understand where the confusion was occurring is a treatise by Maurice Drury MD back from the mid 20th Century. It was called Danger of Words. It is wonderful!

He discusses two kinds of psychology. One is person centered and he calls it psychology A. It is a personal thing and there are many fabulous psychologists who do this great. Then he says there is also an idea that via psychology and mathematical measurement you can perform experiments and a 'deeper' understanding of consciousness can arise via these studies. He calls this Psychology B and it views psychology as a pure science, and modern double blind studies is the right way to figure out this science being raised as the new hope for mankind's unraveling of human consciousness, as if human consciousness is just a secondary effect from brain matter. He goes into detail on why such an approach is illogical nonsense. But it is so attractive to everyone!

It was in this paper I got exposed to Wittgenstein and I started to read about him. He was a bit of a nut. To me he seemed to fit into the personality type of an Albright's type. It was just the way he was made and not really a disease or a malady. he just did not fit in with most folks. A great book to read on him is Wittgenstein's Poker! And via such a view on life he saw things most folks just breeze by.
In Drury's paper there was a small note on Wittgenstein's complete rejection of Set Theory as it was just coming into vogue. Set theory came about via a mathematician named Cantor. Calculus relied completely on the idea of zero as a real number, even in nature, but it still was not completely accepted by all.
In Cantor's Theory he was able to 'prove' that irrational numbers were a bigger set than rational/natural numbers. Wittgenstein called it 'conceptual confusion' that then get accepted via 'methods of proof' (pg 31 in Danger of Words).

It got me thinking back to my grade school days when I was taught all about 'real numbers' and 'natural numbers' along with rational and irrational numbers. It got me thinking back to my freshman year in high school when my Algebra teacher tried to get me to believe that you could take a rational number a/b (where I was taught that a/b times b/a always equals 1 and neither a nor b could ever be zero) and you could reduce it to 1/infinity on the x axis and to 1/infinity squared on the y axis and some how get to zero. These operations troubled me even back then ...but hey we are all taught this stuff with a kind of blind innocence. I went to a Catholic school and so I believed maybe it was all true.

I don't believe that anymore! Any equation that has a Natural number 'Z' as a result of two other numbers x and y can never allow a zero or an irrational number within its function. This is true for a square when you try to find its area A=x y . It is also true for the speed of light c= f w. It is true for a circle A= Pi r squared and it is true for Einstein's famous formula e=m c squared. The only way these work out..is if you only have natural numbers.

There is a logical puzzle created by David Hilbert called the Hilbert Hotel. In it, Hilbert 'explains' why irrational numbers are more numerous than natural/rational ones. Here is a link to a great explanation of this from the NYTimes about a half a year ago. http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/category/steven-strogatz/

The whole idea that the world is continuous/solid comes from our grade school definition of the number line. Make that line solid and continuous, from 0 to infinity and you then can say the cosmos is solid and continuous and REAL.

But this was never truly accepted till Cantor came along and everyone was happy. Mankind could move forward into the 20th Century and feel confident that it has a basis for rationality and reason based solidly upon irrational numbers dominating natural ones. But Wittgenstein did not agree. He hated Set Theory and he hated psychology as it was being developed, as some kind of mathematical science that was based upon modern mathematics. Psychology B rests upon that brain being the source of consciousness. Drury goes into back in the mid-20th Century what Dr Tallis (thank goodness for you sir!) goes into in 2011-there are irrational concepts being shoved down our throats ...and everyone wants to believe it is true.

But if one can show that irrational numbers are not what we think they are, then the whole concept of Set Theory/ Hilbert's Hotel/ Psychology A comes crashing down.

Someone above made a comment that folks like me hold on to some 'imaginary' idea that is all about romantic delusion. That is not the case. I have simply followed Wittgenstein's nose for logic.

Here is the definition of irrational numbers, from Wikipedia." In mathematics, an irrational number is any real number which cannot be expressed as a fraction a/b, where a and b are integers, with b non-zero, and is therefore not a rational number. Informally, this means that an irrational number cannot be represented as a simple fraction.... the best-known irrational numbers are π, e and √2."

It means that numbers such as radical 2 are not countable. This is about a four thousand year old proof. And it comes from logic that has nothing to do with probability but with exactness. If you say A= B and you prove it is not the case, then you have proof by contradiction. And here is what we have relied upon for about 2500 years ...a proof by contradiction.... It can be found here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irrational_number

Thus if you can prove that the hypothesis about irrational numbers, that they are uncountable, as natural numbers as is said in Wikipedia, then you can bring down the whole mess ...and show that Wittgenstein and Drury were onto something.

If you compare radical 2 to 1 then the irrational numbers are uncountable. But what if you compare them to themselves and only ones found in the Pythagorean Theorem ...and not ones just created out of thin air by Hilbert's Hotel..if you can do this then you can change modern mathematics back into its proper place where math is about EXACT answers way above probably answers.

If I can count from 1 to 10 using irrational numbers then I believe I have contradicted a 2500 year old proof.
a/b must be countable and must represent an integer i.e a natural number

rad 2/ rad 2 = 1/1
rad/8/rad 2= 2/1
rad 18/ rad 2=3/1
rad 32/ rad 2 = 4/1
rad 50/ rad 2= 5/1
rad 72/ rad 2=6/1
rad 98/ rad 2= 7/1
rad 128/ rad 2= 8/1
rad 162/ rad 2= 9/1
rad 200/rad 2= 10/1

I think this means that we have not exactly gone forth on the shoulders of giants. It means Wittgenstein was on the right track. Calculus may give the right answers but it does it with using nonexistent numbers. rad 2 may seem irrational but it is simply something very complex and rational. You see why the Greeks just gave up on it. But we should not. This kills psychology ... but it allows for us to work on psychology A. It means Socrates WAS right when he speaks in Phaedo 2400 years ago. What we view as still and real is neither still nor real. It is God's creation filled with wonder...rational wonder!!
There is an old Biblical saying "You commit two errors. First you forsake Me, the source of Living Waters. Second you dig for yourselves broken cisterns that cannot hold water."

Kevin's picture

@ blindboy:

Kevin's statement accurately summarized the quality of your contributions, to date. I didn't notice any sarcasm.

Anyway, I've got better things to do than play in the sandbox with you. Come back when you have something of substance to say, and, in particular, when you learn what "consciousness" actually is (Hint: Dogs don't have it, but thanks for the "howler".)

Aldebaran's picture

P.S. Kevin and Aldebaran are one and the same, in case you haven't figured that out yet. This site is strange, indeed; it seems to log me in under different accounts.

Camden Crow's picture

how sensation works, matters more than any perception, even of one's brain...so you can't then say consciousness arises from the brain or from the cosmos for that matter
. It arises from some other place since it is a priori to perception..... we mix this up...we think it is the other way around...

and sensation comes in a mathematical form that has no continuity i.e no real number line where zero is a real number
no the waves of sensation teach us that they must have frequency and wave and neither can EVER be zero...if ever zero then consciousness would stop, much like how light would stop if a zero was ever inserted into its equation c= f times w
sensation only works via Natural number 1,2,3 etc...

And you can dream all you want how man evolved from a monkey
but what matters more is this:
can the E/M specrtum itself ever evolve?
can colors move from its spot and go to where atoms are?
the answer is sensation never changes ,,,it is a rhythmic/discontinuous mathematical function
you can never say in the study of senstion that 1/ infinity or even 1/ infinity squared can equal zero, as Newton tries to get us to believe

No consciousness does not come from the brain
it comes from where E/M waves originate and where brain waves originate...and it is not in the brain or the cosmos

the hidden eternal soul that Socrates taught us about still is where consciousness arises

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