Nelson Jones

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Circumcision is not a barrier to an individual's religious freedom

Was a German court justified in interfering with centuries of religious tradition?

By Nelson Jones Published 29 June 2012 12:42

A young boy cries after being circumcised. Photograph: Getty Images

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87 comments

Fri, 2012-06-29 15:01 — Barrie J (not verified)

Unless medically essential (rarely so), circumcision is child abuse and should be punished as equally as any other form of physical abuse.
Expect no political/judicial action here, our politicians would rather eat their first born than run the risk of losing a jewish/muslim vote.

Fri, 2012-06-29 14:58 — Silican (not verified)

Firstly, the idea of a risk free surgical procedure is nonsense. Secondly, to argue for circumcision on the basis of HIV prevention destroys the religious rationale for the procedure since no devout Jew or Muslim, given the strictures imposed by these systematised superstitions, would be at any risk of contracting HIV. A legal opinion ,on whether a child would have the right to sue the parents who consented to the operation. would be informative..

Fri, 2012-06-29 14:57 — Silican (not verified)

Fri, 2012-06-29 14:36 — Bud Yanker (not verified)

Please let me understand your argument. Since the magic sky friend says you need this procedure to join the club, it must be done to me without my consent under severe agony in front of a bunch of drunk strangers while my supposed protector ("sendak") holds my legs down as I squeal with pain and some old pervert with a knife slices the protective covering off my healthy organ just after he uses his fingernail to split my fused glans from my foreskin as he applies the clamp. And if I'm real lucky and the mohel is Orthodox, he'll apply his mouth to my bleeding exposed glans and suck off the the excess blood and fluid. Religious freedom at its best!

Fri, 2012-06-29 15:06 — Silican (not verified)

Even better, if you hit the jackpot, you get the gift that keeps on giving, herpes.

Fri, 2012-06-29 18:42 — antihangover (not verified)

Sicilian, you've made my day.
LOL!!!
Although this is equaly good: 'the theory being that it protects against HIV'. Awesome.

Sat, 2012-06-30 12:53 — Silican (not verified)

Unfortunately, it is not a joke. One child, in New York, died following herpetic meningitis as a result of this 'tradition'.

Fri, 2012-06-29 14:30 — John Dale (not verified)

Utter drivel from the sometimes quite sensible Mr Jones.

The last paragraph basically states that grown men who choose to belong to a religion may be deterred by the discomfort, and this is a bad thing, but babies with no say in the matter may be put through that discomfort just in case they decide later in life to make an informed decision to be a member of the same cult as their parents.

I also note that nowhere did this piece mention that a large number of Jewish boys have their foreskin bitten off by a rabbi rather than the slightly less barbaric option of being mutilated under local anasthetic by a medical practitioner.

This should have been made illegal generations ago. Well done Cologne.

Fri, 2012-06-29 14:36 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

I am, frankly, amazed how anyone can defend this blatant act of child abuse. There is little to no difference between circumcision (for no reason) and an act of sexual abuse. Both can leave long-term psychological scars and cause harm to one's sex and social life. It should be banned the world over.

Fri, 2012-06-29 13:46 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

I had a circumcision done when I was 13 due to a tight foreskin. It was unable to retract and I ended up with paraphimosis, where the foreskin gets stuck behind the glans. I went to hospital and got that fixed, and the doctor got my parent's consent to perform a circumcision. No other options were given, and I have since found out that circumcision was definitely not necessary. Stretching and special creams can solve the problem. In fact, many boys are unable to retract their foreskins until they are in their late teens/early twenties.

Circumcision has RUINED my life. The foreskin contains 80% of all the sensitive nerve endings that make sex so pleasurable. The glans contains the other 20% but because it is now exposed to the air it becomes keratinised and so loses all sensitivity also. I have problems getting erections, I find no pleasure in having oral sex performed on me, and the only way to reach climax when having sex is by having very vigorous sex in the doggy position. This has caused intimacy problems, where partners think I am insensitive, and so has ruined the relationships. I simply get no pleasure from other positions; in fact, it's a complete chore that I have no interest in.

I wanted to sue the NHS but apparently, because my parents gave consent, I don't have a leg to stand on. I feel depressed, suicidal and I've realised recently that this is probably the main reason for my failed life in terms of career/job and relationships.

The fact is rarely, if ever, medically necessary, and if done for religious reasons, IS child abuse. It is equivalent to raping your child.

Sat, 2012-06-30 01:06 — what? (not verified)

'and the only way to reach climax when having sex is by having very vigorous sex in the doggy position.'
Sorry, but I don't understand.
1. Doggy style helps;
2. No pleasure from oral stimulation.
3. Part of skin removed with some nerve endings.
4. Keratinised glans, exposed to air (what are you talking about?). You've lost 100% of nerve endings? C'mon something doesn't add up here.
5. Still doggy style helps, conclusion is that you have enough nerve endings to climax and are obsessed with this circumcision of yours. Can't you just get over it? You are ruining your own life. End.

Mon, 2012-07-09 04:53 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

What? is a cunt. End.

Sun, 2012-07-01 01:35 — Hugh7 (not verified)

What? is exhibiting a striking example of "circumcised thinking". Like many circumcised men, he thinks "to climax" is all there is to sex. The pleasures of the journey are lost on him. This idea is explored here: http://www.circumstitions.com/Sexuality.html#still

Sun, 2012-07-01 12:15 — what? (not verified)

Good for me;
have you had sex before reaching 13 years of age so you could make full comparison to having sex after circumcision regarding sensation? No? Oh. Your pleasure is lost because of your thinking and behaviour. My deepest sympathy to your wife.

Sat, 2012-06-30 20:01 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

Are you saying that the NHS was in the right for mutilating my penis at 13 years old when it was completely unnecessary? You sound like a grade A PRICK.

Sat, 2012-06-30 21:22 — what? (not verified)

'Are you saying that the NHS was in the right for mutilating my penis at 13 years old when it was completely unnecessary?'

Of course I'm not saying that, can you provide with an appropriate citation where I say that?

Sat, 2012-06-30 00:14 — Hugh7 (not verified)

Thank you Lawrence. This verdict is bringing men like you into the open as never before, and soon it will be impossible for circumcision advocates to go on saying "I never heard of anyone with any problems". I have added your story to the list (yours is #163)) at http://www.circumstitions.com/Resent.html#other

Sat, 2012-06-30 20:05 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

Thanks, Hugh. I seriously cannot believe the attitude of people like 'What?'. This is the sort of attitude I have had to deal with for years. So many people just don't seem to understand how devastating this unnecessary operation is to men. It is EXACTLY the same as forced female genital mutilation. It is wrong and needs to be banned. I just wish I could sue the NHS because although it would never solve my problem, it would give me deserved compensation.

Sat, 2012-06-30 20:05 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

Sun, 2012-07-01 07:31 — thewestisthebest (not verified)

Lawrence: agree totally, we need to outlaw all religious practices that inflicts pain or draws blood. This barbaric practice of child mutilation carried out within the NHS should stop any doctor or lay-person who performs this outrageous act should face prosecution.

Sat, 2012-06-30 23:02 — what? (not verified)

Law, try to understand, that my alleged attitude is all in your head. Thoughts you think I think are only in your head. I can tell because I have no thoughts you think I have/ thoughts you ascribe me. Something like that is classified as distorted automatic thoughts, here, mind reading. I have no knowledge of your feelings or how your body looks like, that is something that only you know.

Why don't you let it all go? Perhaps your penis doesn't look as you'd wish, but it still works.

Sun, 2012-07-01 01:28 — Hugh7 (not verified)

@What? You should have stopped after "I don't understand"

Stop trying to psychoanalyse Lawrence when he has stated the issue much more clearly than you have. He's saying it DOESN'T still work - at least not properly. Circumcisions vary in severity in ways that are quite unknown to the doctors who do them. They leave or remove the frenulum - the last remnant of the ridged band of nerves running around the inside of the foreskin, which circumcised men call "the male G - spot" - at whim. After circumcision the part of the brain that was waiting for signals from the foreskin is re-innervated with connections from nearby parts, (This phenomenon is well-known among tetraplegics, whose upper body becomes unusually sensitive.) But after circumcision the results are unpredictible, and Lawrence seems to have drawn a short straw.

Sun, 2012-07-01 16:25 — what? (not verified)

And you claim I'm psychoanalysing you on what grounds? Logic has nothing to do with psychoanalysis.
Besides, your arguments are off since nobody has ever seen your penis and no one will see it (this is net), therefore nobody knows how it looks like or how it was mutilated, if at all.

Sun, 2012-07-01 00:27 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

Do you have the same attitude towards forced female genital mutilation? Because it is EXACTLY the same thing.

Sun, 2012-07-01 00:26 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

It only worked to a certain extent with ONE woman. You know NOTHING about this so please be quiet. I hope you get mutilated one day and then you'll know what it feels like.

Sun, 2012-07-01 00:58 — what? (not verified)

As far as I read, nobody technically forced you to have it circumcised. Lots of men were circumcised and that's how it is in some specific cultures. Your other dst-s are numerous, I get it's hard to live that way.

Sun, 2012-07-01 17:09 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

They effectively forced me because I was never told WHY I was getting it done or that there were other options thus rendering the whole thing unnecessary. You are obviously a troll, no one can be so thick.

Sun, 2012-07-01 17:40 — what? (not verified)

Emmm, nobody forced you, you could freely walk away from this procedure.
Btw, only trolls exchange posts with themselves using several nicks, so, ehm Si, what that makes you? A desperate troll?
:-)

Lovely.

Mon, 2012-07-02 02:53 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

I was 13 years old, you idiot. I just got told I had to have it done. At 13 years old you tend to trust your parents and authority figures. No one told me they were going to cut half my dick off. No one told me I could apply creams or do stretching exercises. No one told me it wasn't necessary. No one told me it was going to destroy my future sex life. No one told my parents that either. What's that you say? You get it now? Oh, that's good, I'm glad I finally educated you.

Mon, 2012-07-02 12:22 — what? (not verified)

First of all don't call me an idiot, because I'm neither an idiot nor your enemy and certainly not a person who 'cut half your dick off'. Style of your communication is really bad.

You complain that your choice was not informed properly and so on and so on, parents, doctors, doctors, parents, you. There's the past and there's the now, what's done is done and you have no possibility to change that. In the meantime, your cock is still in place and working, some options are closed (and you concentrate on them), some are open (and you don't explore them). If your cock bothers you, go for plastic surgery, you might feel better with its looks afterwards. For now, you just lash out, which doesn't make sense, it doesn't make your cock go thicker, better, longer, more sensitive, whatever. It only makes You appear Thick.

In the end, perhaps your problems are not physical with lack of sensivity (as I mentioned before, you can't truly compare as before circumcision you had no sexual experiences, boys start to masturbate around the age of 13), have you tried to speak with a sexuologist?

Thu, 2012-07-05 20:56 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

Sheer ignorance. As I said, if you'd bothered to read and understand, the look doesn't bother me, it's the function (or lack of) that bothers me. There is a complete lack of function, and yes I DO KNOW that it is like comparing night and day because when a normal man has sex, he's meant to ENJOY IT, FEEL IT, etc.

You have done an amazing job at showing everyone who reads your posts just how ignorant you are.

Fri, 2012-07-06 19:20 — what? (not verified)

I find no words.

Sat, 2012-07-07 19:40 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

That's because you're an illiterate moron.

Sun, 2012-07-08 01:58 — what? (not verified)

I have to disagree.

Mon, 2012-07-09 18:28 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

You're also a complete cunt. I hope you get cancer.

Fri, 2012-06-29 13:45 — Lawrence11 (not verified)

The fact is rarely, if ever, medically necessary, and if done for religious reasons, IS child abuse. It is equivalent to raping your child.